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The main problem is that the dating success is not equal. I …Read more.
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Happy Mother's Day
Dear Readers: Happy Mother's Day. Please phone your mother, grandmother, mother-in-law, stepmother or foster mother and wish them the best. And our special good wishes to all the new mommies who are celebrating their very first Mother's Day. Also, …Read more.
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Dear Annie: I am writing a long overdue thank-you note to my parents. They are faithful readers of your column. Mom and Dad, I am thankful that:
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Threatened by a Child
Dear Annie: I am an elementary school teacher. This year I have two 7-year-old students with major behavior issues. Both of them have threatened to bring a gun to school and shoot me and their classmates. As shocking as it is to hear this from such young children, the response from the people in charge is worse.
I reported these threats multiple times, and nothing has been done. No one has even spoken to the boys about their behavior. I was told the kids are young and most likely don't have access to guns. Yet these kids have older siblings who can obtain guns for them.
In light of current events, I take these threats seriously. I've spoken to the principal, vice-principal, school social workers and the boys' parents. They all tell me I need to "focus on the positive things the kids do."
Am I crazy, or are they? What should I do? Quitting my job is not an option. — Worried Teacher
Dear Teacher: While it is not uncommon for young children to make such threats, they normally do not follow through. However, there is a slim possibility that one of these boys will bring a weapon to school and attempt to use it, especially if he hears news reports about other school shootings.
The bigger problem is the "major behavior issues." We realize you are fearful, but an alarmed approach is not productive. Are these boys receiving any kind of ongoing counseling or assistance? Perhaps if you approach this as a way to help the children develop better coping skills, the school will address it more directly and effectively.
Dear Annie: Please let your readers know of an easy way to support our troops. When buying a new cellphone, donate your old one to the nonprofit Cell Phones for Soldiers through cellphonesforsoldiers.com.
Cell Phones for Soldiers was founded in 2004 by Robbie and Brittany Bergquist of Norwell, Mass., when they were 12 and 13 years old. The organization converts proceeds from used cellphones into prepaid phone cards for our troops overseas. They have donated more than 181 million minutes to our troops, many of whom could not otherwise afford to call home. Please support those individuals who support our country. — Bay St. Louis
Dear Bay St. Louis: Thank you for mentioning this very worthwhile organization. We hope our readers will keep it in mind when getting a new cellphone.
Dear Annie: I was perplexed by the recent letter from "Mr. Manners" about bits of food that a diner drops on the plate. He expressed disgust that people pick up the bits with their fingertips, and you concurred that it was proper etiquette to use one's knife to retrieve the droppings. I can display more grace picking up such bits with my fingertips than anyone can with forks and knives. And what about the centuries-old practice of sopping one's bread in leftover juices?
However, my real question is: In the grand scheme of things, what difference does it make if a person picks up food bits with the fingers? — Durant, Okla.
Dear Durant: You may have misunderstood the original letter. When eating peas and other small, hard-to-capture foods, it is best to get them onto one's fork by using a knife or a piece of bread, rather than pushing them with one's fingers. It's unappetizing to watch someone use their fingers. And yes, you can sop bread in leftover juices, as long as you don't make a slurpy mess of it.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2013 CREATORS.COM


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50 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - either this letter is made up or an awful lot has been left out. I suppose the LW can talk to the police; they are the only authorities not mentioned. However, I have to wonder why every single person in this situation disagrees with the LW and sees the magnitude of the problem differently. When the LW says that "no one" has even talked to the kids about their behavior, that sounds like a huge red flag that the LW has the problem, not the kids.
Comment: #1
Posted by: kai archie
Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:14 PM
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LW1: I am incredulous that threats from students are taken so lightly in your School District. In our district where my wife works, a fifth grader was suspended for the remainder of the year for writing threats on a bathroom wall. I think you should take this to your union rep (assuming you work in a public school). It is their job to be your advocate in these types of situations when your safety is at risk. If you are at a private or charter school, you likely aren't represented by a union so your options are more limited. At this point, I see nothing wrong with bringing these threats to their parents' attention. They may have no idea their children are acting out this way and just might appreciate a heads-up. They could be the most shocked of all if their child is the one who actually carries out a threat. Just think if their first reaction is that no one told them what was going on.
Comment: #2
Posted by: JustWinBaby
Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:16 PM
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LW1: Not really sure what to say here. I am beside myself that the principal does not take threats of gun violence seriously, considering what has happened more than once. The parents could certainly have guns. They may say the kids can't access a gun, but that may just mean they have one, but it's in a cabinet. And a determined 7-YO can get into that cabinet. You are right to be alarmed. Maybe you can alert Child Protective Services? I don't know who else can intervene here, if the people who should, are acting like idiots. This is another massacre waiting to happen. Maybe not now, when they are 7. But if this is already in their heads, when they are older, say, 10, and better able to plan things out, they WILL kill other students. Maybe you can transfer to a school that takes student's lives more seriously. Remember, your life is on the line, too.
LW2: Thanks for the suggestion to donate the cell phone. What struck me most is that America still treats its soldiers like crap - they don't even get to call home often enough? Jesus. They get paid peanuts, have to go through PTSD, get crappy medical benefits, don't get their mental health taken seriously. I mean, what is the incentive for someone to join the army, except that they have nothing else planned in life, and will be bumming around otherwise? It's one thing to want to protect your country, but to get nothing in return is pretty crappy on the part of our country.
LW3: It doesnt' bother me if someone picks up something with their fingers, but I think it should be larger, like a piece of lettuce. If it's a tiny piece of burger that fell out, then a fork is best. That said, there are many foods and may cuisines that require using Only your hands and fingers to eat, so contrary to the Annies, it's not unappetizing to see people eating with their fingers. It happens all the time, and is an ignorant comment. These cuisines means even food that falls out of your hands, will be picked up by your fingers. So get used to it.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Salty
Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:22 PM
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LW1: Seriously? OHHEEEELLLLNO!!! Install a hidden video camera in your classroom and capture these mini-thugs in action. If the school won't take you seriously, contact law enforcement. Do not back down. I don't care how young these kids are, they need to understand the consequences of making death threats. (Thank you, God, for my boring desk job.)
Comment: #4
Posted by: PuaHone
Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:33 PM
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* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *
LW3 refers to the second letter on 9 December 2012.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:43 PM
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One of my employees was threatened by, as it turns out, a 5 year old living next door. When he told me this kid was saying he would shoot him and called him the N word, I CALLED THE POLICE. The mother was saying he was only 5. The father was upset that he used the N word on a white man. We asked the police if he could bring his gun to work given that he was threatened. They said yes. We are constantly armed while working outside. The kids and family have since moved away. As I told the mother, I don't care if he is 5 months old. He threatened my employee and we will defend ourselves against him.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Linda Dorfmont
Mon Apr 1, 2013 12:24 AM
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LW3: "... what difference does it make if a person picks up food bits with the fingers?" I can tell you -- if you work in an office setting or other white-collar job, your table manners can very well make THE difference as to whether or not you get promoted to a position where you'll have breakfast, lunch or dinner meetings with higher-ups or important clients. Or, even more importantly, dinners at the boss's house. If you work in the trades or other blue-collar position, it may not matter, but when suits and ties, or nylons and heels, are involved, it can be crucial.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Nancy
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:05 AM
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Hello? april 1st?
Comment: #8
Posted by: nonegiven
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:16 AM
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Re: Linda Dorfmont
That 5-YO obviously learned the N word from his parents. At that age, the parents are the biggest influencers. He learned the language, and about guns from his parents. I'm glad you took the threat seriously - gun violence has no age minimum or maximum.
I'm also tired of parents saying "he's only 5" because they also say "he's only 12" and "he's only 16" I mean, the excuses go on forever, no matter the age. children younger than 5 have played wtih guns and shot their own friends. A few weeks ago I read about a child who was playing with a gun his dad actually stored in the glove compartment of his car. Dad went into the store for one second, and the kid had shot himself. I hope that kid gets some peace, and that dad, whom I consider a murderer, rots in he//. There is no parental responsibility anymore. Thanks for letting me vent, ha.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Salty
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:29 AM
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nonegiven - If that first letter is an April Fool's joke...that is one sick joke. School shootings should never be joked about.
LW1 - I'd like to say I can't believe nobody in the school has done anything but i can believe it. In light of everything that has happened, some people still don't take things seriously. They always think, "Oh, it can't happen here!" or "Oh, they're just kids." I would remind your princpial of Kayla Rolland, the 6 year old in Michigan who was shot by her 6 YEAR OLD classmate. He got the gun from his house. It was just lying around on the floor. If a 6 year old can murder a classmate, so can two 7 year olds.
I would tell the principal about it again and say, "If nothing is done, I will have no choice but to report them to the police." Then do it if he/she does nothing about it.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Michelle
Mon Apr 1, 2013 3:24 AM
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LW1 - I agree with kai archie that either there's a lot left out of this letter, or it's not real (someone's idea of a VERY bad April Food's joke?) I find it difficult to believe that the school administration has turned a deaf ear to the children's threats, or at the very least failed to address the other behavior problems they have demonstrated.
.
We hear all the time about students even younger than these two who were suspended for much lesser offenses and threats than taking a gun to school and shooting people. If the letter is real and in fact nothing is being done to address the issue, then the teacher should contact the school board or Union officials about the problem he/she is having with the school administrators' inaction.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Kitty
Mon Apr 1, 2013 3:25 AM
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LW1 - One more note about the school authorities with their heads in the sand. I know this pales in comparison, but my high school and college had their heads in the sand regarding certain things. I went to a Catholic high school and college...not sure if that makes a difference, though.
There was a pervert for a guidence counselor in my high school. Several girls complained all 4 years I was there and the school did nothing. If the parents' complained, they sent the girls the another counselor (female). Brush, brush, sweep, sweep, under the rug. In my college - who always bragged about how safe their campus was - a girl reported she was raped late at night. The school immediatly called her a liar and shooed her away. She went to the police. I don't know the outcome of the case (the girl left the school right after that...don't blame her) but they continued with their "We have such a safe campus!" sweep. sweep, brush, brush under the rug attittude. Sad to say...it happens.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Michelle
Mon Apr 1, 2013 5:29 AM
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I'll pass on LW3, and LW2 I think pretty much is self-explanatory; glad to see these groups doing a good community service project. And I'll go then right to LW1:
kai archie and Kitty (various posts):
What's there to have been left out of the letter? I think it's mere coincidence that this letter ran on April Fool's Day ... I don't see anyone making a joke out of children causing mass shootings. Seems like she's spelled matters out.
So with that said, the next step is to approach the school board or head of her teacher's union to try to address this issue. One thing Kitty IS right on is that there have been students much younger than these two 7-year-olds being suspended for lesser offenses (such as bringing knives and guns to school, even if for "show and tell" because they thought it would be cool to show it off and get the "oohs" and "aahs" that their classmates' more mundane, "boring" reports might get).
At the very least, if these are just idle threats by the 7-year-olds (i.e., "Hey, I'm not REALLY going to shoot anyone. I just said that because I saw it on 'Family Guy' last night.") or they see it (the threat) as a solution to problems ranging from being bullied to not getting their way, they need counseling to help them understand the seriousness of their situation ... that it may get a laugh on TV but in real life, it's not so funny at all.
Same goes if, somehow, they do plan some massacre – they need counseling to help them understand that it is not the way to solve problems or frustrations, and that talking about it with teachers or getting over things is the better solution.
The latter (a massacre orchestrated by 7-year-olds) is very unlikely, I agree. But the former (an idle threat motivated by something) is ... and both need to be taken seriously.
For the administration and other teachers to brush this off as "kids will be kids," even if these boys made idle statements with little actual threat, is unconscionable.
That all said, the only way that I can perhaps see kai archie and Kitty's point is by this comment: "I reported these threats multiple times, and nothing has been done." That is, the possibility:
* That something WAS done – i.e., the principal, wanting to keep the matter quiet, took the boys aside, with their parents sitting alongside them counseled them, put something in their files and after they showed remorse considered the matter closed).
• She was told this and asked to drop it.
• She strongly disagreed with the principal's solution – anything other than the two boys being expelled and the situation being a front-page story in her local newspaper "because these are bad, bad boys and felons-to-be" – and she's determined to make sure they never come to her school again.
So with all that said, I guess I can see two sides of the issue. But not that this is an April Fool's joke.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Bobaloo
Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:16 AM
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LW1--I have two words for you: Sandy Hook! I don't know if the people in charge at your school are just naive or if they're just utter morons. The next time one of these little brats threatens to shoot you, call the police then and there. If your higher-ups are embarrassed and try to reprimand you, threaten them with a lawsuit the likes of which they've never seen before. With the recent spate of school shootings and other gun violence, these threats are not to be taken lightly and the hundreds of other parents who have kids in your school will thank you for getting these two little psychopaths out of your school before yet another tragedy occurs in which innocents children and teachers are mowed down in cold blood.
LW2--Based on the myriad tweets and Facebook updates coming in from the front lines it's clear to me that many of our troops already have access to cell phones, computers and Skype. If our government can't give those few soldiers who don't have their own gadgets access to a simple phone call or an Internet connected computer from which they can call home occasionally then these soldiers should be questioning what the hell they're fighting for.
LW3--I don't know about you, but it was pretty clear to me that "Mr. Manners" was a nut job with too much time on his hands. You're right, what the hell difference does it make? Mr. Manners needs to worry about himself and stop putting his fellow diners under a microscope while they're trying to eat.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Chris
Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:29 AM
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Re: LW1, given today's litigious society and the sharp focus that violence in schools receives, I find it almost impossible to believe that the school authorities brushed this LW's concerns off so completely. There must be some details that we are missing... either that this LW runs to the principal for every little issue and so has become "the boy who cried wolf", or that the school officials have investigated discreetly or in a way the LW doesn't feel is sufficient.
But that the LW was simply rebuffed and ignored with no reason in such a situation is extremely difficult to fathom. There must be more to this story.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:38 AM
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Kids who threaten teachers should be kicked out of her classroom. Kids who threaten about guns should be kicked out of school.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Judy B
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:02 AM
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Kids who threaten teachers should be kicked out of her classroom. Kids who threaten about guns should be kicked out of school.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Judy B
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:02 AM
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Is this an April Fool's joke? I taught for 33 years and the last 10 years were very stressful. Some administrators are better than others. Some took threats very seriously and others "blew it off." I finally quite because the students were running the schools. The last straw was when I found a note from one of the middle school girls stating that she was coming to school the next day with a gun to kill as many people as she could during lunch period. She was starting her suspension that day. The administrator left the note I had given him on a table in the teacher's lounge and didn't follow through.
Comment: #18
Posted by: shirley keller
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:02 AM
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While i'm on the subject of kids being removed from schools, it's really the parents who are passive-aggressive, or non-supportive of teachers, and their kids pick up on that. Good students begin AT HOME, with parents teaching them that it is a privilege for them to be attending school. There is to be no "acting out" in the classroom. Save acting out for the playground, or play time in the parents own back yard.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Judy B
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:08 AM
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For too many parents, school is just a place to park their unruly kids with behavioral problems -- kind of like "free" babysitting. But it isn't free. The other people in society pay dearly and the teacher pays most dearly of all. God Bless Teachers! However, no teacher should have to put up with the children of non-supportive parents. Kids pick up on their parents attitudes. In many cases, the parents are passive-aggressive. Kick these little brats out of school for the rest of the term and when they come back, they can be a year behind. And use that as an example for all would be trouble makers. It's about time teachers started getting the respect they deserve.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Judy B
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:13 AM
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I work within the school system, though not as a teacher. Let me just say that parenting has greatly deteriorated over the last 10 years. Behavior issues are increasing at an alarming rate. Am I shocked two 7 year olds threatened to bring guns to school and shoot someone? No, I'm not, because I have seen it myself. I have listened to a 6 year old drop the F-bomb in a meeting with adults. I know of a 7 year old suspended for threatening to bring a knife to school and stab someone. In just the last few days in was in the news that 10 and 11 year old boys brought a gun to school and had a murder plan. Wake up people!! This is not an inner city problem, and it doesn't happen somewhere else. It is happening everywhere!! If that school is ignoring this problem, they have their heads in the sand. I feel for that teacher.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Deb Keffaber
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:26 AM
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I have no difficulty believing the situation described by LW1. My daughter is in 3rd grade and there are some students in her school, and a few that have been in her class, who have behaved like the ones LW1 has described. One boy has the generic title, behavioral issues, and has over the course of two years, punched, shoved and kicked various students and teachers. He has threatened to stab and shoot other students as well, and has bitten one teacher. Why haven't they expelled him? Because he has a "rough home life". Their current little band-aid fix is to send him home at lunchtime before he gets too overwhelmed. Also, the current trend is to just to move them to another school in the district. Another boy who punched a little girl in the face last year because he was "frustrated", keeps getting passes because they suspect he has an abusive home life. Some teachers have privately told me that the administrators blow them off when they express concerns about the safety of themselves and the other students. They suggested that concerns coming from parents might be taken more seriously. So, that's what I've started to do. Let's hope they listen.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Jennifer
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:49 AM
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Wasn't there a story recently about a kid who made a gun shape out of his sandwich-and the school authorities took some action? Amazing that different school districts handle these situations inconsistently.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Paige English
Mon Apr 1, 2013 8:41 AM
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I say it's a joke because if a teacher really reports a threat like that, the kid would be suspended. They suspend kids for pointing fingers and saying bang or for biting poptarts into the shape of a gun.
notalwaysright.com/he-jumped-the-gun/28285
Comment: #24
Posted by: nonegiven
Mon Apr 1, 2013 8:43 AM
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LW1 -- You say that these kids have pretty serious behavioral problems, which means that even if they had never made any threat to bring a gun to school, clearly these kids need additional help beyond the normal classroom routine. I know nothing about your school and whether it has a solid special education program, or other resources available for kids with behavioral problems, but again, even without the gun threat, it's clear these kids need additional help that you are probably not in a position to give.
Having said that, I do find it hard to believe, in the wake of Sandy Hook and other incidents (there have been stories of kids even younger than 7 getting access to a gun and accidentally killing someone with it) that NO ONE else is taking this seriously, so like some others, I am wondering if perhaps something has been done and you simply don't know (which seems unlikely) or don't feel like it was enough.
LW3 -- I don't remember the original letter and didn't bother to go back to look for it because I generally believe that most of these etiquette questions are ridiculous. It would be one thing to write to an advice columnist to seek guidance on proper etiquette for something that hasn't already happened -- like a bride-to-be writing in to ask about something related to invitations BEFORE she actually sends the invitations out. But nine times out of 10, these letters are asking about something AFTER the fact, when basically there's nothing that can really be done, and the LW is just looking to be told s/he is/was right -- as if that's going to fix anything. But I guess at least they figure they will feel better when their "disgust" has been validated by someone else. So, the irony is that while it sounds like you feel like the letter was just a basic waste of time -- and I would tend to agree with that -- I'm afraid so is your response to it. For that matter, so is my response to you!
Comment: #25
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Apr 1, 2013 8:52 AM
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LW1- This letter, sadly, is NOT an April Fool's Day joke. I have seen pricipals who would not involve the police in incidents like this, because the administration greatly discourages reporting anything short of a homicide. The pricipals look bad if these incidents occur in their school, so they don't report them. The districts don't want their district to get a bad reputation, so they don't report them. Budgets have been cut, so when you get a student who is obviosly unbalanced, there is no one to send them to for counseling. Or the list to see the one conselor in the district is so long, you know that the incident will be long forgotten by the time the child gets to see anyone. I once had a student who held a knife to the throat of a girl in my class. I was frightened out of my mind, but I walked up to him, held my hand out and demanded that he give me the knife. He did. I marched him down to the office, where no one was interested in my dilemma. I was told to fill out the incident repot, which I did. I asked who would take custody of the knife. No one wanted to, so I placed it on the principals desk, with the incident report. I went back to class. Later, when I saw the perpetrator walking around school, I went to the office to ask WHY? By now, the pricipal was back in her office, and she said, "well, he just got back from suspension, and he did that to get kicked out again, and we're not going to play that game." I left at the end of the year, but I have seen similar things in other districts I worked in. No protocols exist to deal with violent students, no money is available to create programs, old programs fell to budget cuts, and teachers are at the mercy of all this craziness. NO ONE has the teacher's back.
Comment: #26
Posted by: Patty Bear
Mon Apr 1, 2013 9:13 AM
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LW1 -
I don't know what to say besides what the Annies suggested. Contact your union rep if you have one or the police, install cameras if you can, as has been suggested by others. I don't know if that would be enough.
The school direction's inaction is appaling. This rosy-glass thinking and ostrich approach is exactly the reason why school shootings keep happening again and again. And this lack of support is exactly why there is such high rate of burn-out amongst the teachers of the school system. Teachers are having vastly unreasonable demands dumped on their shoulders like Jesus' cross until they crush under the weight, and they're treated like cannon fodder, and thrown to the wolves like they're a dime a dozen. Disgusting.
In answer to your questions, LW, yes, they're crazy, not you. Quitting is not an option? Pray.
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Re: Kitty, kai archie, etc
"I find it difficult to believe that the school administration has turned a deaf ear to the children's threats, or at the very least failed to address the other behavior problems they have demonstrated."
I don't. I see people in denial all the time. Ironical that the very act of finding this unbelievable is in itself denial... Yes, many people react appropriately to such a threat, but many others don't, hoping that if they ignore the problem, it will go away.
@Jennifer #22
I know people in the school system. When there is a student who's such a problem that the teacher reports it to the direction, she gets blamed for "not being able to hold her class" and the director does nothing.
Add to this that the size of classes has doubled since the time when I was in one of them, and that they now integrate students with learning problems and behavioural issues that were put in different classes back then. And when a kid with problems disrupts the entire class and brings the teaching to a standstill, it's all the teacher's fault even though they're not allowed to use discipline. They're expected to obtain miracles just giving them "the look". Yeah, right.
The pupils outright laugh in the teachers' faces, jeering "Meeeeeh, I'll do whatever I want, and not do what I don't want, and you can't make me, you're not even allowed to touch me, HA HA HA HA!". The teachers are also expected to grant a passing grade no matter what, even if you have to call the custodian to the rescue to evict him when he acts up and he spends more time outside of the classroom than inside... the self-esteem of the poor little tyke will be so crushed otherwise.
Some places are better than others, but some are very bad. Some kids walk out of the system barely literate or not even, unable to perform a task creditably and running amok like wild animals. The rate of burn-out amongst teachers is extremely high.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 9:19 AM
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Re: nonegiven
What the skeptics have to understand is that the response to a problem situation will vary widely from one place to the other. This is not a standardised thing. What Patty Bear said.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 9:24 AM
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LW1: Couldn't agree more with Chris. CALL THE POLICE. Considering how many Americans own guns (assuming this LW works in America) and how many gun owners seem to be idiots*, it's not that far fetched a child could bring a gun to school. It's just ignorance on the school's behalf. It's also probably a little bit of what Michelle wrote: the school "protecting" their reputation. If the teacher gets in trouble for calling the police, she should take action. I wish this letter was fake, but I doubt it. And if it is, that's quite the coincidence it was published on April Fool's...
*I don't think all gun owners are idiots. I don't even think the majority are. I think there are some really smart, safe people out there. But if you watch the news for a week, you'll see how many gun owning idiots are out there. My city just had a 2 y/o die recently, because her parents left a gun out on a coffee table and she shot herself. Idiot parents.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Casey
Mon Apr 1, 2013 9:53 AM
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Re: Casey
Idiot parents? This is more than idiocy, this is criminal negligence. I hope they were charged and that the cops threw the book at them. People like that make me sick.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 10:08 AM
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I am stunned at the response LW1 is getting from the people in charge at her school as well as from the "advice givers." I don't care how old those kids are, there is no reason for the letter writer to live in fear or for her to be ignored. I just saw on the news about two 5th graders who were taken into custody for taking a gun and a knife to school because they were going to rape and murder a girl they knew. Then one of them threatened to kill the 4th grader who told an adult when he saw one of the other boys had the knife on the bus. The LW needs to do whatever she needs to do to keep herself and the other students safe. I don't think you can overreact in a situation like this. I'd be terrified.
Comment: #31
Posted by: aimee85
Mon Apr 1, 2013 10:16 AM
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I work in a school and I completely believe the LW.
I also know that often the teacher is blamed when she cannot control her class.
Yes, problems do begin at home, however, setting a positive classroom environment really makes a difference. I am now teaching in a middle school and I still have to find better ways to improve my classroom, however, I instituted a classroom program in my elementary classroom that was very successful. I listed positive character traits on the wall such as perserverance, honesty, problem-solving, etc. The kids enjoyed learning the meaning of these "big" words. When I caught students demonstrating these attributes or when they caught each other doing the right thing, we put up a leaf on a tree. Soon the tree was filled with green leaves and students got positive recognition for good behavior. They also sought the good in each other. It made a huge difference in my classroom. Other teachers and visitors complimented mhy class. To think, just the year before, the students had been hostile and plotting against me. It is hard when studetns come in with behavior problems, but if we take a bit of time and effort, we can make a actually help kids.
Comment: #32
Posted by: jennifer
Mon Apr 1, 2013 11:13 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette (#27)
A lot of what you say I concur with. (Got a kick out of the rosy glasses/ostrich remark, I admit.)
The only thing I'll add is that it seems school principals and administrators always seem to be in the position of, "Well, he (the bully or kiddie-perp) has a right to an education, too" when dealing with bullies and potential pint-sized assassins, so they do nothing, hoping the kid will "grow out of it" as last night's killer movie/Seth MacFarlane cartoon (where killing/extreme violence is glamorized and/or played for fun) fades from the youngsters' impressionable minds or something. Well, yeah ...
• But not at the expense of another child's safety. Even if you don't like curly-headed Susie or the geek in the corner, or even the class bully ... or want to kill just for the thrill, you do not have a right to hurt or kill others or put others' safety at risk, no matter what the reason.
• But not at the expense of driving a fellow student to suicide because of the merciless bullying over things that may not even be true.
• But not at the expense of outright disrespecting the teacher, telling her "F-you, c***!" and "Yeah, see ya' in the funny pages!"
• And definitely, but not to make a seemingly idle "joke" about killing people or otherwise harming others, because it is going to be taken seriously.
Something more needed to be done in this case.
I just can't believe the school's approach was right, even if the principal handled it privately and the kid is truly repentant, understanding – after a long talk – that making an idle remark such as "I'm going to kill (so-and-so)" is going to be taken seriously. If that was the approach, BTW, then at least a memo should have been given to the staff clarifying that the issue has been resolved.
What I'd like to know from someone is – and this is going off the "well, you still need to give them an education" question – what DO you do with these troublemakers once they're removed from the school system and put in a position where they can't harm their fellow students? Because short of extensive intervention, they aren't going to change "somewhere else." That is to say, the "he's someone else's problem now" approach isn't going to fly.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Bobaloo
Mon Apr 1, 2013 11:24 AM
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Bobaloo, you have mentioned 'Family Guy' many times and how horrible it is. Do you actually watch it? One of my favorite shows. It is not a children's show. Notice the time slot it is shown. I fail to see how it is any different from the "Loonie Tunes" and Merrie Melodies" cartoons of the 50's and 60's. And those were directed at children. Although "Family Guy' is a bit more sophisticated with it's politically incorrect content, but that does not seem to be what annoys you. I don't see any correlations with this show and any behavior changes in children, certainly nothing regarding gun issues. Just curious as to why this show bothers you so much.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Penny
Mon Apr 1, 2013 1:41 PM
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And Seth really IS a 'HOTTIE'.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Penny
Mon Apr 1, 2013 1:42 PM
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And Seth really IS a 'HOTTIE'.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Penny
Mon Apr 1, 2013 1:42 PM
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Re: Bobaloo #33
And that is where the whole problem with our educational system lies-----the statement that "he has a right to an education too". As long as we continue to go on that premise we'll never get rid of the problems-----because getting rid of the problems would mean we'd first have to get rid of the 'problem' kids-------the ones who disrupt, fight, make threats, and generally make it impossible for a teacher to teach those who WANT to learn.
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As long as we continue to believe everyone has a RIGHT to an education, we lose all leverage. And these kids, AND their parents, know it. We can't expel a problem kid permanently, because then how will he get his education? So we do temporary stuff, which puts him even further behind with his learning, then bring him back so he can disrupt again. Teachers have become babysitters for the brats. How can they possibly concentrate on teaching those who might have a chance to learn and go out into the world as productive citizens? They can't.
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It will never fly, I know------but make education a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT . Concentrate on those who like to learn, and who know how to behave in class. We fool ourselves into thinking that if we turn disruptive brats away they will have no chance in the world, and that it's because we've taken away their educational rights. Not true------that's not the reason. They have no chance anyway, if all they want to do is disrupt and fight and not try to learn. That diploma means crap for those kids, and we all know that. Their attitude is what will screw them later in life------even with an "education".
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And now that I've ticked everyone off, might as well go a step further------remember the days when students were placed in divisions of their classes according to their learning ability, and the teacher could go at a pace that everyone could keep up with, because the class was DESIGNED for those of like 'intelligence', if you will? Now we mix everyone together, and we 'mainstream', at the expense of the brightest kids, who drag along at the pace of the slowest ones. And we don't ever dare to imply that an 'A' grade is better than the grades below it, because someone's feelings and self-worth might suffer. We drag smart kids down a few notches so that everyone can feel good about himself. Very sad. And we wonder why our graduates rate so poorly compared to those of other countries who haven't made that mistake.
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In some countries, education is valued, because it's not automatic. Here, not so much.
Comment: #37
Posted by: jennylee
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:09 PM
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Re: jennylee
"Make education a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT"
Mister Crazy Singer worked as substitute teacher. He told me he once had a little girl originating from some dirt-poor part of the world (and old enough to remember how things were there), who didn't care didley squat about school and kept getting into trouble. Yet he managed to get her do a complete 180 on her attitude.
How did you get her to start working seriously, the teacher asked in astonishment when she came back from sick leave. I told her, ask yourself seriously, what kind of schooling would be available to a little girl of your skin colour back where you come from, and don't you think you should take advantage of the fact that it's not like that here, he said. Interesting, coming from a guy who was actually quite racist.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:36 PM
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Re: jennylee
"In some countries, education is valued, because it's not automatic. Here, not so much."
I can say the exact same thing about information. In countries under heavy censorship, people will risk their lives to get to the information. Here, where the information is free and freely available at the click of a mouse or remote, people just sit in front of Fox News or CNN and gobble down everything without questioning.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 2:40 PM
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Re: jennylee (#37)
Well, I understand the frustration, particularly with kids who simply will not learn and only go to school to torment people they do not like or consider dirt. I actually remember a situation where a troublemaker picked on a classmate he considered a "mush head," and how the poor kid he tormented wanted so much for the principal to beat the living snot out of this bully. Unfortunately, you can't do that because then the bully's parents will come back with a lawsuit of their own, the principal will be lucky to avoid punishment by his soon-to-be fellow inmates (a 300-pound man beating up a 80 pound boy for making trouble), the "rights" groups will come out of the woodwork crying sympathy for the bully and claim that the poor "mush head" kid got what was coming to him because he was coddled in a way that would do Chris proud, and so forth.
The bully always wins, sad to say.
I agree that there are times where the only solution appears to be bar them forever from entering any school -- but I'm not sure that permanently denying anyone -- even the disruptive young punk who is only interested in being a troublemaker -- an education the WAY you imply is the solution.
Because then it becomes a tool for -- now say it with me, kids -- RACIST! Those that would deny a certain class of children an education because of their skin color, by saying that just because they have black skin, or any other shade that isn't European white they should be "denied" a "privilege" to get an education. Invariably, that will happen.
I'm going to sound like I'm kissing up to Lise again, but her post at #38 makes a lot of sense. I think I can add to that, somehow, a teacher has to have a gift to break through to children who have trouble learning and who are not interested in learning. If that teacher has the right gifts, he's a special individual. (That said, Lise -- I wonder if, given that you say your ex-boyfriend is a racist, he knew that.)
All I can say for now is that I hope the two boys in LW1 were dealt with appropriately, that they are getting counseling and now understand how serious their comments are.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Bobaloo
Mon Apr 1, 2013 5:26 PM
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LW1-I may or may not be alarmed by these students claims. You should know them from your daily interaction w them and your regular or not interaction w their family. I just have an anecdote to contribute. My parents were so religious and anti- gun, weapon that they were sometimes incarcerated shortly for protesting violence and war. My many siblings were NEVER allowed to view TV or movies unless they were religious in some way. BUT, even though we were not usually allowed to trick or treat...one time my parents allowed us to go to our very elderly neighbors home to help them pass candy and I saw kids dressed in menacing outfits I had not seen before. Guess what?...they were laughed at and given CANDY. At least this Childs holy grail. I went to this couple's house demanding candy with my finger guns the next week. They knew I was harmless. I got a good (or bad as I thought at the time) talking to. Maybe these kids don't know any better. Good luck. Boone should live scared OR ignorant.
Comment: #41
Posted by: LolaT
Mon Apr 1, 2013 5:46 PM
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Re: Bobaloo
I don't know if he knew that. He wasn't very self-aware, not particularly informed and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. What attracted me is that he was a fellow singer. Beautiful voice, he could have had a career. But he was also very fvcked-up and self-sabotaging. I had serious reasons to suspect incestuous sexual abuse. The amount of talent I've seen go to waste in my life so far... and in the meantime, I can't seem to be able to do anything with mine. Isn't that the epitomy of irony? Sigh. Must be life's idea of a April Fool's pranks.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:19 PM
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Re: Lise Brouillette (#42)
"Isn't that the epitomy of irony? Sigh. Must be life's idea of a April Fool's pranks."
Yeah -- so true!
Comment: #43
Posted by: Bobaloo
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:11 PM
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Annie,
You totally missed the mark on your response for 'Teacher'. The most important thing here is the safety of the school. There is no reason to think that the children do not have access to guns. It is alarming to me that you, as experts, are more concerned with the childrens' development than the safety of the school. No one can tell at this point whether the kids' threats are just empty threats or might be treated as evidence in the months to come. If the school officials won't listen, the teacher should report it to the police with their (the teacher's) union rep present. This should be documented and when things have cooled down, reported to the community so that it is known the cavalier attitude with which the educator's take their duty of care to the well being of the other children. If the teacher is then fired, they should sue the school district and its administrators into the Ice Age. In short, your advice is wrong and unfortunately, if the teacher follows your advice, this could well be another horrible tragedy.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Colin Harris
Mon Apr 1, 2013 7:47 PM
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I had written earlier (#2) that our School Board suspended a fifth grade student for writing a threat on the bathroom wall. This same district did nothing when a parent threatened to kill a principal. The principal reported the threat and was vehemently warned NOT to involve the police. Our district will throw the book at students but are deathly afraid of the parents. There have been many instances where they are ready to lower the boom on a student, but then quickly back down once a parent gets belligerent. My wife has worked in the district for fifteen years and can't wait to retire. It looks more and more like the tail is wagging the dog in public education whether it's unruly students, problem parents or teachers' unions.
Comment: #45
Posted by: JustWinBaby
Mon Apr 1, 2013 8:45 PM
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@ Lise B. #30: I couldn't agree with you more!! They have been arrested (thankfully.) There were 3 children at their house that day. Isn't that just horrible? It didn't happen very long ago, so they haven't had their day in court yet. But when it happens, I hope they go away for a long time.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Casey
Tue Apr 2, 2013 6:23 AM
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Re: Bobaloo
"A teacher has to have a gift to break through to children who have trouble learning and who are not interested in learning. If that teacher has the right gifts, he's a special individual."
True. And there is a chance that he had that gift. Unfortunately, it was made unusable by his host of problems. He was a man with a lot of dirty little secrets, which only came out minutely over time. For instance, he had fathered two children whom he never saw. He told me he once went to the school they attended to watch them from afar and that, when they noticed his presence, they just froze and stared, standing there like they were planted in the ground like a tree.
Children who freeze and stare at the sight of their father, instead of running to him screaming with joy... That looks very, very bad. Given that, I would wager that there was a very good reason why he never saw his children. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he piddled them and that there is a court order. I mentioned I had good reason to suspect incestuous sexual abuse when he was a child. He was also a closet gay, in denial big time, and sex was a filthy-dirty and shameful thing to him (one of the reason he was in denial) - among other important problems he exhibited... He definitely had the profile of a molester. Like I said, he was very, very screwed up and the relationship didn't last long because of that.
He complained many times to me that this and that school director wouldn't give him a full-time teaching job. In the beginning, I was puzzled because teachers were in high demand and he certainly had the qualifications. But after I learned about the freeze & stare children, I started wondering if these school directors didn't know something he wasn't admitting to, and were only giving him substitute work because they couldn't legally bar him without having any direct accusations to level. Yet more talent and gifts going to waste... Sigh.
@Casey
Alhamdulilah, let's hope the judge throws the book at them. The second amendment can be carried to ridiculous lenghts, and this is one of them!
Comment: #47
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:01 AM
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Re: Bobaloo #40
Bobaloo, what I said (and yes, I know it's not a practical solution) was that the kids who were disruptive, violent, and not there to learn should be barred. I said NOTHING about their race/ethnicity. Problem kids come in all colors/races.
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You, on the other hand, said that my plan would result in denying NON-WHITE kids an education. Where does the 'non-white' thing enter into it? Are you maybe saying that the problems come only from the non-white kids? Because I want the PROBLEM kids to be barred, not the NON-WHITE kids. Some of them may be non-white, just as some of them are white.
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Putting it the way you say it indicates (to me at least) that you believe the only problem kids would be the non-whites, which DOES sound racist, and is NOT what I said. (I know that's not what you meant, and I agree that someone who wants to scream "RACIST!!!!" might try using that. Happens all the time, in many different situations.
Specifically I am thinking of the "I'm only in prision because I'm black/Hispanic/you name it------" when the truth is, you are there because you commited a crime and were found guilty.)
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But the thing is, those who want to scream 'racist' will do so at ANYTHING whether it is true or not. And the truth here is that disruptive kids affect the educations of the non-disruptive kids. Race has nothing to do with it, although in some cases those kids may be predominantly of specific races/ethnicity. In others, they may not be.
I don't want them removed BECAUSE of their race, nor do I want them allowed to stay because of their race. I want them removed because they are not interested in learning, and are making it difficult for those who are.
Comment: #48
Posted by: jennylee
Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:13 AM
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Sigh –
Re: jennylee (#48)
No, I am not saying your intent is bad. Your intent actually is really good – barring kids who are only there to make trouble.
The problem is the people who would use your plan to their advantage and to discriminate. Sad to say, there are people out there like that, they build on prejudices and pre-notions that because a few from such and such a group is bad in some way, they ALL must be bad. (Which is a fallacy.)
The right thing to do when making the "removal" policy is what I think you're suggesting: Take race out of it, and make that clear from the get-go and then you've taken the first major step toward discouraging anybody with racist notions from using the policy to suit some agenda.
And FWIW, the bully I spoke about in #40 is white and so was his target. Also, when I read the letter, I envisioned two white kids (perhaps bullies) ... and a suburban school – never even considered any other race.
Comment: #49
Posted by: Bobaloo
Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:48 AM
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They totally missed the boat on LW1. I don't think the teacher is overreacting at all. In light of recent events, no teacher, school, or parent should take any threat as not being likely. should a kid who ate his sandwich and made it look like a gun be suspended? Of course not. But these kids are making threats and the system is not taking those threats seriously. In my opinion, the school needs to require the children to go for counseling to resolve these behavior issues or not be let back in. Period.
Comment: #50
Posted by: jac
Wed Apr 3, 2013 11:41 AM
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