Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW: What are you, 20? Your "boyfriend" is addicted to his "wonderful" parents, and there's no room for you in his life. Your "relationship" is done. You need to move on and find yourself a real man.

RE LW2: I am trying not to be judgemental here, but you say, "God has blessed you with two wonderful sons." I am pretty sure that there was someone else or two someone elses who "blessed" you with each of your sons. Are you married? Are you over the addiction but still behaving like an addicted fool?

You don't say anything about how you are supporting these children, how you care for them, just how you are judged. Taking your letter at face value, you are still putting yourself before the needs of the children, at least the lucky ones who survived your lifestyle. The Annies suggest counseling for you. I think it is sickening that there nobody is wondering how your children are doing in your care.

I should say, I think it is sickening that, from your own account, it appears that there is nobody concerned about how your children are doing in your care. Father? Fathers? Anyone who can be identified by DNA?

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the first letter on 31 January 2013.

Carly O - for someone who's trying not to be judgmental, you sure do come off as such in spades! And you're throwing sterotypes in there as well. What makes you think that her children have different fathers? Or that she's not taking proper care of them ? I've never done any type of drug, but I can understand that a person can get sucked into that and addicted really fast. I think the LW should be applauded for staying clean for over 5 years. Have you ever accomplished anything so hard? She's stated that she's ashamed of her past, feels guilt every day and has people judging her - she doesn't need your venom. She asked how to forgive herself for the daily guilt she feels. So LW 2, find yourself a good counsellor that will listen to you without judgment. Perhaps realizing that your miscarriages may not have been due to the drugs will help you. I know of a woman who has 9 children, all taken into custody at birth, and all addicted to whatever drug she was using while pregnant. I also know of a woman who has never done a drug of any kind and has had 3 miscarriages. So forgive yourself, celebrate the strong woman you are for staying clean, and celebrate the life you have now with your two wonderful children. You state that God has blessed you with your 2 children - perhaps realizing that God doesn't judge you or hold your past against you will help you forgive yourself. He's in your corner chearing you on to stay clean and embrace the life you now have.

Re: Carly O
There isn't any indication that LW2's children AREN'T being well taken care of, that there isn't a husband/father in the picture, or that the children have multiple fathers. Perhaps the children are doing just fine and have a stable home life and that's the reason the LW doesn't ask for advice about them. She is to be congratulated for her ability to stay clean for five years. NA (Narcotics Anonymous) would be a good place for her to start getting help with her guilt feelings, and she should also check out the resources the Annies suggested for a counselor. Also, Just my Opinion is correct in that there could be other reasons for the miscarriages, although lack of proper care and nutrition could have been major factors. Only the LW's doctor can answer that question. In any event, the LW is to be commended, not judged further here BTL with no evidence to show that she isn't being anything other than a good mother to her sons.

LW1 - If this man still relies on his parents for everything by the time he's in his 50's, he's not going to change. There's no indication of how old his parents are, or what health issues they may have, but assuming they're in their 70's and in good health, the LW could be dealing with their interference in her life for a long time. If they are much older or NOT in good health, she could well become their caregiver since her boyfriend wouldn't have a clue how to care for them (as opposed to them taking care of him). Either way, it's a lose/lose situation for the LW and she should remove herself from this mess now while she still can.

LW1, it seems like your boyfriend has been in this pattern for a long, long, long time -- even with incentives it may be hard for him to break it. Given that you live together and you love him, I would make one last effort to make it clear how much his over-attachment to his parents is interfering in his love life (and the rest of his adult life!) and how unnatural it is. Ask him to go to couples counseling with you to discuss these issues. If he refuses, or is resentful, then you'll have the answer -- that his parents are more important than you, and you can express regret but let him go.

LW2, setting aside Carly O's rather one-sided speculations, it seems right now you have a good life, better than when you were addicted. All sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds can fall into the trap of addiction. The important thing is that you've climbed out of it and have a new life. That you still have some lingering guilt from things that happened during that time isn't unusual, and it may be that your family and friends simply aren't equipped to be able to give you the help you need. Local social services, professional counselors, or pastoral counselors, all should be available to you wherever you live, and I recommend you use those services. There's no need for you to wallow in guilt any more, you need to find a way to help yourself heal.

LW1: I know a few people (both male and female) like your boyfriend, and I often wonder what will happen to these people when their parents go.

Regardless, there are several issues at play with your situation that are setting off red flags for me.

1. The fact that you have combined finances, are living with this man, and he goes against YOUR wishes for how to handle YOUR money is a big big deal. It really doesn't matter that it's his parents giving him the alternative advice, it's that he doesn't seem to value your opinion about how your combined finances should be handled.

2. The fact that he's taking out loans for "toys" is a big deal for me. It doesn't matter where he's getting the loans, it's the fact that he's spending money he doesn't have on things he doesn't really need.

3. The fact that his parents want to keep him tied to them IS a huge deal. The people I know who have been like your boyfriend, often the ultimatum happens at a certain point in the relationship of "It's your parents or me" and the parents always win. It's not just the money. It's the fear of growing UP.

For me all three of those things are deal breakers individually, much less alone. Time to go.

last line should read: For me all three of those things are deal breakers individually, much less together. Sorry!

LW1 -
For you to move in with a man who has all the independance of a supported teenager... that was very silly. It is not his parents you cannot measure up to. It's him who won't stand on his own two feet, because he never had to. And he never will while his parents are supporting him, and they will continue to do so until they die, so your prospects in this are nil.

Furthermore, this man has no respect for you, if he does whatever his parents dictate against your wishes. Perhaps you love him, but he doesn't love YOU - you are nothing but the resident booty call to serve his "manly" needs, the one thing his parents can't do for him.

Yes, your only option is to leave, because nothing will change. Stop wasting your time and your emotions - the longer you wait, the more painful it will be. And RUN, the next time you see another Peter Pan like him.

P.S.: You discussed nothing about the household before moving in? Now, that is VERY silly. Don't do that again. Makes me wonder how much older than 20 you are, and what attracted you to a man this immature.

LW2 -
For people to be still condemning and judgmental now that you truly have turned your life around does not exactly exhibit Christian charity. What do they expect you to do, wave your magic wand and turn back the clock? Lemme borrow it for a sec when you're finished with it, I sure could use a little swing of it myself!

Reminds me of the Suor Angelica opera, where the Sword-of-Gabriel bitchy sister screams "EXPIATE! EXPIATE!" at the heroine. Stay away from people like that.

As for your guilt feelings, perhaps you can console yourself with the fact that, given your level of intoxication at the time, a spontaneous abortion was probably the best thing that could happen to these babies. Otherwise they would have been born brain-damaged from a fetal syndrome and already addicted on top of that. Such babies don't generally do very well when they grow up. My personal convictions would tell me that perhaps the two boys you finally had were sent back to you, but that's me. Also, there may have been other causes contributing to your miscarriages - the reason we know how well or not fetal syndrome childen do is because plenty of them make it to term.

As for anything else, you will have to accept that you cannot turn back the clock, you cannot undo your mistakes, you can only learn from them and move on from there. It looks like you have. This is more than a lot of people achieve (check out LW1), including the people who judge you. What the Annies said, and bouquets and kudos for licking this, stay clean and good luck!

LW1 - Thank God you're not married to this big child. Do yourself a favor and get rid of him. If he's in his 50's and is still relying on his parents to help him pay his bills and get "toy money" and he blabs everything to them but won't talk to you and goes against your wishes all for them, then he is NEVER going to change. He will never grow up. His parents can't be all that young. When they die, he will then rely on YOU to pay his bills and then expect you to wipe his nose and tie his shoes for him just like Mommy and Daddy did his whole life. Do you really want to do that? He will not magically grow up once they pass. He will instead turn to someone else to fill the void. Don't be that void filler.

LW2 - Definilty see a counselor to help you through your guilt. If you're religious, talk to a clergy person from your church/synagogue. Good luck.

LW2: Just my opinion was right on here.

You don't say what type of recovery program you are in, but you mention God in your letter, so I'm going to assume you are a woman of faith. I will approach your letter from that angle.

There are times in your faith and growth when you need guidance, and it happens to EVERYONE for different reasons in their journey. Many churches, including my own, have special groups for people with addiction problems. Our church's group is very active in community outreach but their primary goal is to support each other through the recovery process. I would suggest you get involved with a similar type of group: people who have gone through what you've been through are a MUCH better source of support than people who have no idea what you've gone through (your family and friends) and who are possibly judging you based on the impact of your addiction on their own lives.

I would also suggest you speak to a spiritual advisor or pastor about your guilt. I miscarried a baby when I was 4 months pregnant and even though I wasn't a meth addict, I too felt an enormous amount of guilt. I was in Japan at the time, and I called home to speak to a family member of mine who is a minister. I'm not going to write what he told me, suffice it to say that he is TRAINED to deal with loss and he gave me a LOT of comfort.

What also helped me deal with the loss has been that I believe that things happen according to God's plan. When I think now about losing that baby, I realize that if I had NOT lost that baby, my darling CC could not exist! I lost the baby in June and got pregnant with CC in October. If I had been able to carry the baby I lost, there is no way CC could have been conceived. It was a part of the plan that I lost that baby. I just didn't know it at the time.

Finally, I would encourage you to seek individual counseling. Going through what you went through is HUGE. You can not and should not handle it alone. Yes, you need group counseling and spiritual guidance, but I think you also need the impartial feedback from a counselor. You may want to discuss that part of things with your sponsor and try to find a counselor who specializes in addiction recovery. I'm sure that some of what you are feeling right now is a PART of the recovery process and a specialist can help walk you through some of these feelings.

God bless you, you're doing great! Keep up the good work, you'll get through this too.

LW1--"I am afraid my only option is to leave." Yes, and do yourself a favor and get it over with as soon as possible. Your boyfriend is the victim of copter parents is incapable of thinking or doing for himself; his parents therefore remote control him as they would a radio controlled toy car. You think the situation is annoying now, just wait until you're married. Your in-laws will insert themselves into your lives to the extreme point of constantly undermining you and causing anger, resentment and strife in your marriage. We won't even consider how they'll affect any grandchildren. It's time you faced the fact that when it comes to your boyfriend and his parents, you're the competition honey and your boyfriend makes Peter Pan look like a responsible adult. DTMFA!

LW2--You volunteer to tell your story to vulnerable young people and other recovering addicts. Not only will you be performing an extremely valuable service to society, but if your story is able to save even one life it will make the loss of your unborn children easier to bear.

LW3--Your story illustrates perfectly why people should simply learn to mind their own damn business.

LW3: The original letter is not from the parent, but from a neighbor who is concerned about the child.

And yes, no child NO CHILD should have unsupervised access to guns, perceived threat or no.

Wow Carly O, way to fail to read the part where LW2 stated that she is five years clean and sober. Way to assume that her children have different fathers and are not well cared for. Yeah, that's not judgmental at ALL...

Re: Michelle
I agree with your comment on LW1 that the LW will ultimatly end up being a substitute "Mom" at some point. That was something I was thinking at the time I originally posted, but forgot to mention. The LW definitely needs to get out of this situation as soon as she can.

LW2: you are bring "slut shamed" by your family and friends. Please find a competent, non-judgemental coundelor with whom you can share your feelings and hopefully reconcile your sad past with your happy present. Best wishes and congratulations onturning your life around.

Argh! LW1! Here we go again.
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LW1, you are like a person who walks into an animal shelter with their heart set on getting a parrot, but instead you walk right past Polly and choose a cat. Then you take the cat home and try to teach it to talk and you get your knickers in a knot because the cat won't talk, it just claws the furniture and pees in your shoes. And you keep screaming at it, "BE A PARROT, you dam cat! Be a PARROT!" And not only are you miserable, the dam cat is miserable too, because he was always a cat and you knew he was a cat and there's nothing necessarily evil about being a cat, and he doesn't even WANT to be a PARROT! He's happy being a dam CAT.
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So you write to the Annies and say, "I wanted a parrot but I got a dam cat. Now the cat insists on acting like a cat and not like a parrot. I can't believe he is so self-centered. To make matters worse, his parents, who are also cats, insist on treating him like a cat, too. What should I do?"
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And the Annies reply, "We agree that a cat who refuses to act like a parrot is not a very good parrot, and we cannot promise he ever will be. It sounds to us like this cat (who must be a male) never writes thank you notes and is very controlling. You have probably noticed he leaves cupboard doors open and makes a clicking sound in his throat. He may be bipolar, or suffering from Asperger's. But unless you can convince him or his parents that their indulgence in treating him like a cat, instead of a parrot, is not in his best interests, you will be fighting an uphill battle. Try gently and very nicely talking to your dam cat about your desire for him to be more parrot-like, and if that doesn't work, go to counselling, with or without him. You may also want to check to see if you, the cat, or his parents are going through menopause."
LW1, the problem is not your boyfriend, it is not his parents, it is YOU. You describe a man who is the total opposite of what you are and has been his entire life, you admit you knew this before you moved in together, and now you cry because he is who he is. Honey, your "boyfriend" can no doubt get the senior's discount down at the drugstore. His parents have probably already preplanned their funerals. Ain't none of them going to change now, and especially not for YOU. He's happy, his parents are happy, and they're all consenting adults who have a RIGHT to spend money on each other and buy their kids adult toys if they dam well please. The only person who is unhappy about this whole arrangement is YOU. That they're living their lives the "wrong" way is simply your opinion. And you want to marry him? Soon, his parents will die, and then he'll look to you, his wife, to pay his bills and buy his toys. Is that really what you want?
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Go find a therapist to help you figure out why keep buying dam cats when you really want a PARROT. Argh! I need my COFFEE!!!

LW1: Toys, eh? What kind of toys?

Seriously, what kind of a JOB does your boyfriend have? How well does it pay, and can he reasonably support himself without these luxuries or having to go to his parents to bail him out?

Pretty much what everyone else has said – time to end the relationship and move on.

Jane:

While I agree it's their money and it's their son, it's not helping matters. It's undermining the entire relationship with his girlfriend. It's probably the cause of their fights. Indeed, later on after his parents die, he'll probably turn to you for the bulk of his support (again, does he have a job and how good is it). She needs to trust her instincts that things are unlikely to change and get out while the getting's good.

hahahaha, Jane, you always break it down!

Re: Carly O

Re LW2: I've got to agree with the others – you are coming off as a little bit harsh here, which is exactly what the LW is complaining about – her reputation preceding her.

Sad thing is, with a few people it may always be that way – they don't see the woman who's changed, but the meth-addled town slut, and no amount of "I'm sorry" can soften their attitudes. How sad.

The best thing to do is continue on the straight and narrow – you've done good so far, and I pray this good fortune continues – and to do what Chris has suggested in #14 (one of his better posts, I might add): "You volunteer to tell your story to vulnerable young people and other recovering addicts. Not only will you be performing an extremely valuable service to society, but if your story is able to save even one life it will make the loss of your unborn children easier to bear."

And you don't worry about who you can't change or who won't change, even if they were offered $1 quadrillion to soften their attitude and forgive you.

LW3: It sounds like you're a loving, supportive father who is doing what's best for your son. I am glad you're working with him on his "impulse control" and other behaviors. Good luck in the future to both you and to him.

That said, every person is different, and unfortunately, not all youths in your son's situation have the unconditional love and support of their families. I wonder if that was the case in Newtown, Conn., with PINOs (Parents in Name Only) in Mr. Lanza's life? I guess that's what the LW was wondering – what about the kid who might not have the same support system as you're giving your son? "How do I intervene and avert what might happen?"

Again, good job with your son, and keep it up!

@Jane: GREAT analogy!! She almost had my sympathy, until she wrote that she knew he was self centered before they moved in together. Why, oh why, would you move in with someone like that?? It's * so * hard to leave once you move in (though I have a feeling he moved in with her.) He's not going to change; his parents aren't going to change. As you said, she's the problem, because she has accepted this situation, while at the same time she expects it to change.
With that said, I do feel sorry for her, because she's reached that point of realizing the only solution is to break up, but she hasn't quite accepted it yet.I know she's the one who got herself into this situation, but I still feel bad. I've been in a relationship that I knew, on a subconscious level, was not ever going to go anywhere, but we really did have a great relationship and I didn't want to lose him. In retrospect, we should have broken up way sooner, but it's really hard to accept that parting ways is the only answer. I hope she accepts it and moves out, or kicks him out, and in the future she needs to stick to parrots and not settle for a cat!

Re: Jane #19
Jane, excellent post!!!!!! You hit everything. I love the cat/parrot simile.
One thing I notice is that the LW doesn't really ask what she should do. She states the facts and mentions that she knew the facts going in, she can't get the facts to change, and she sees only the option of getting out.
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Not really any advice we can give her, even though she doesn't really ask----------------she is right on. Unless there is a lot we don't know, he didn't try to fool her------she just assumed things would change to suit her (a common mistake people make when they're in love).
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This has been the situation between him and his parents for 50-some years, he's happy with it, and presumably his parents are. She is the one who came knowingly into an existing situation, tried to change it, can't, and is unhappy. She can stay and bitch, stay and accept, or leave. It appears she already knows which one she will choose, she just wants to vent for a minute. I understand the venting, and reading between the lines, I think she's a bit disgusted with herself for making such a stupid mistake. Since she now sees her mistake, I hope she rectifies it without wasting any more time. Everyone will be happier if she breaks it off, I think.

FWIW: Meth is supposed to be one of the hardest drugs to quit. LW2 REALLY deserves our respect for shaking the drugs and rebuilding her life.

LW2.. Ok, I hope I don't piss people off, but I have a different take on this letter. First, I really do commend this woman for being clean for 5 years. That's a great accomplishment. I'm, also, sorry she's going through such a painful time. With that said, she can't really expect her family and friends to know how to deal with that information. I would have no idea how to react if a friend told me that, while she was addicted to meth, she miscarried 5 babies. I just would freeze. I froze while reading this letter! That's heavy information and, let's be honest, most people would find it hard to not have a kneejerk reaction of judging her. She clearly needs professional help (I'm thinking like a grief counselor) for her and her boys' sake. It sounds like she's gone the route of family/friends and they just aren't equipped to help. I commend her for recognizing she needs help with this, but she needs to look to a professional. I really do hope she finds the peace of mind she's looking for. She's come so far and it would be tragic for this guilt to lead her back to drugs.

@jennylee: Great post on LW1 :) I think you, Jane, and I all have the same opinion on her!

Oh! Before I forget. I have a question for the advice column lovers on this site. Do any of you read Ask Amy? If so, do you know a site that allows for comments? I read her every day and would love to find a site that allows for comments. Thanks!

@Jane, love the cat/parrot analogy.

@Casey, agreed, I think LW2's friends and family may *want* to be helpful but just don't have the capacity to help out for problems that are so huge and so specific. Trained counselors are probably indicated here.

@ nanchan

Way to go recommending LW2 become more religious. While I don't begrudge anyone from practicing a religion of their choice, people might be interested in studies that indicate that many addicts turn to religion because, much like a drug, it is simply another addiction. When you examine the parallels between addiction and religion it is extremely eye opening.

Religious belief is analogous with an addictive chemical drug, with both being an alacritous remedy for vulnerability, desperation, and depression. Rather than physical addiction, religious conversion generates a psychological dependence that exhibits as a desire to perpetually experience the pleasure derived from comforting religious beliefs. Religious addiction symptoms include sacrificing rationality through the ardent acceptance of agreeable yet questionable theory, and the dismissal of all theory that could disrupt the entrenched position of comforting beliefs. The physiology of religion confirms this addiction-reinforcement process through the release of dopamine, and genetic consistency among believers. Our evolutionary course, navigated on the precepts of survival and reproduction, has determined our acceptance of religion. The faiths that have survived cultural selection will be perfectly engineered for our minds. These parasitic thoughts ensure their perpetuity by utilizing the same psychological mechanisms that maintain addictions to chemical substances. Religion is the habit of alleviating psychological pain with self-reinforcing delusion. It is a highly addictive and insidiously pernicious condition.

At least it is assumed that having turned to religion she will no longer go around miscarrying babies.

I've said this before, but I think I need to stop posting on BTL. The regular posters are just so much more succinct than me, and are able to put my thoughts/feelings into much more eloquent posts than me. Mike H, this post is mainly directed at you today :) Your #29 post summed up my feelings very well in two sentences. I want to hire you as my BTL ghost writer now!

LW2 - Wow Carly O... OP asked how to deal with her guilt of the past and the responding behavior from her family, not how she is dealing with raising 2 wonderful boys whom she loves dearly. You clearly missed the point of her letter, and go on about one daddy or two, how she feeds them, cares for them, etc. Are you trying to force more salt into her already sore wounds???
W - First off, congratulations on your new life with your precious boys. You made an extraordinary choice that was truly difficult. I commend you! Your family and friends sound like they are still angry for many other issues concerning the addiction you once had, and the miscarriages are just one avenue to display their anger.
Many, many years ago, a co-worker said he was clean and sober for 10 years after a heavy heroine addiction. He became married and had 3 children and was so happy that his life turned around and changed for the better, but his family still had issues. While he did not mention being judged for his past actions, he did say his family did not trust him. He understood their reasoning as he use to steal from them, beat up old women for their purses, and an overall creep while doing drugs. While it had been 10 years clean and sober, he knew it would take a very long time before his family and friends would allow him into their home and trust him again. Your family and friends have experienced first hand what it was like to see you trying to kill yourself, and see your personality become someone ugly. It has only been 5 years, and will take much longer to regain that trust and love you desperately want. When you try to talk to them about your guilt, they are reminded of the past that they too must live with. I agree with other posters, do not rely on them to help you deal with the guilt and grief that you still harbor. Speak with a counselor that specializes in addictions. They can better help you navigate a new life without the guilt. While we always want others to be more forgiving, forgiving self should be the first priority. If you don't, your chances of relapsing will be far greater.

Had to play devils advocate with LW1. Is it possible that there was an event early in boyfriends life that made it necessary for the parents to pay his bills & authorize/give money for his 'toys'?

The letter kind of reminded me of Britney Spears - she couldn't handle her money or her life & was put under conservatorship. If you look at Britney, someone else pays her bills & they can authorize her money for extras, but she doesn't have the power to make the decisions without checking with the conservatorship first.

Britney's is obviously more legal, but it is possible that the LW's boyfriend had an issue like this & either officially or un-officially gave up his money to his parents to handle. I agree that in his 50s he should be having more control & decision-making power as his parents won't be there forever.

I agree that the LW should dump the guy, no matter how hard. I just wanted to add that there may be a valid reason for the arrangement with his parents.

LW1 -- You know the answer. DTMFA.

@Jane -- let me join the crowd in toasting your parrot/cat parable!

LW2 -- While I agree that Carly O was extremely harsh and made a number of assumptions/accusations that we can't possibly know to be true, certainly it is possible that some of those assumptions ARE true. We really just don't know. Yes, she's been clean for five years (which is AWESOME!), and yes, she mentions God, so she has at least some measure of faith -- but frankly, I hear people who aren't really all that religious say things like this, and it doesn't really mean a whole lot. So, I wouldn't use that one phrase as evidence that she is now a church-going, God-fearing woman. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't (and, of course, church-going, God-fearing women are not necessarily perfect angels!).

Having said all of that, I'm with Casey (#26) on this one. And I LOVE Chris' suggestion that she make amends/give back by offering to talk with young people about her experience. A couple of observations I'd like to add:

1) She says some of her friends and family are judging her. There is also another possibility: they're really not, but she is so caught up in her guilt that she ASSUMES they are all sitting in judgment upon her.

2) As we all know, LWs tend to shine the best possible light on themselves and are a tad skimpy on the less-flattering details. LW has been open about her addiction and her miscarriages, which isn't flattering information, but since that is the root of her problem, she could hardly write in for advice on this without mentioning this. So, while some of the details she left out might be good things -- such as she is happily married to the father of both of her children, she and/or the father are gainfully employed and are well able to care for their children, etc. -- some of the details she left out might NOT be good things. And they don't even have to be the things that Carly O assumed. For example, she may well have her stuff together now, but what ELSE did she do while she was still an addict? Perhaps she did some very real damage to those friends and family while she was addicted. Sure, they should forgive her and move on, but depending on what she may have done to them, that is sometimes easier said than done.

3) While I do hope that the LW is able to forgive herself eventually, I will also say that sometimes a little guilt is a good thing. Frankly, if she wasn't at all bothered by the damage her past did, I'd be kind of appalled. Again, I don't think she needs to wear a hair shirt for the rest of her life, I'm just saying that the fact that feels bad about the damage she did as an addict is actually a good thing. But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

4) Sure, it's possible that her drug use had nothing to do with her miscarriages, but honestly, does that really even matter? Would she feel better if those children had survived but were severely damaged? Even if those kids had miraculously been born perfectly healthy with no addictions or drug-related medical conditions, it's not like she did right by those children. She continued to use during her pregnancy, uncaring of how that could affect the life growing inside of her -- and she did this not once, not twice but FIVE times. In other words, honestly, she is RIGHT to feel guilty about that. And let me say again, I don't think she should wallow in guilt for the rest of her life. Both for her own sake and for the sake of her two sons, she needs to learn to forgive herself and move on.

LW2 -- please take an honest look at your life today. Celebrate and appreciate the good things you have accomplished. Examine any of the not-so-good things you may still be engaged in and work toward rooting them out. Make an honest assessment of the damage/hurt you may have caused your friends and family and make amends (to the best of your ability) for that before you expect them to forgive you and/or be sympathetic to you. Five years is a long time to stay clean – and a long time to live with this guilt hanging over you. If you are unable to come to terms with the damage you did during your past, it shouldn't be all that surprising that some of your friends and family are having an equally hard time with this. Consider counseling to help you continue to move forward. You and your sons deserve it.

For "W" -- wow, those are some serious cosmic lapses. It's great that you've been clean for 5 years, and you are being a good mother to your two children now. The only thing I can think of that would help you to live with this (I don't think it's realistic to expect that you'd ever feel really 100% ok about your past) is to incorporate 12 step counseling if you're not already doing this, see a therapist to discuss how to incorporate this into your sense of self in the most constructive way, and if you are able to -- VOLUNTEER -- maybe assist with drug addicted babies in hospitals? Good luck.

Chris: your lack of faith is well known here and I won't discuss it.

This is for W. There is a wonderful, sweet, short book that may help. It is called I'll Hold You in Heaven by Jack Hayford. It gives"healing and hope for the parent who has lost a child through miscarriage, stillbirth,, abortion, or early infant death". Also, most Crisis Pregancy Centers have support groups for parents who aborted. I know W's case was different but the things they teach could help in her situation also.

Casey, I had just the opposite reaction to her information that she miscarried 5 babies while she was a meth addict. You say you froze (at the horror, I guess.) I felt great relief. Thank God there are five more babies that will NOT be born to a meth addict!

But Chris, what does your dissertation on the psychology of religion have to do with the existance of God? I belong to no religion (although I have in the past) and I know, with not one shred of doubt, that God exists. I don't knock on doors or stand on street corners talking to the voices in my head, but that knowledge is a strong influence in how I see others and life itself. Religion and God are not the same thing.

Oh Jane, I just love it! Especially in my crazy house, I have three spoiled cats and three very spoiled Amazon parrots (big but not as big as Macaws.) And we all co-exist quite nicely - well, the cats don't understand why I want birds in the house, but they're well fed and don't bother them. Even when Tony, my darling parrot who thinks I'm his mate is walking around on the floor calling for me, I've seen him walk right past the cats who just look at him. (I don't let that happen on purpose, but it has happened.) Years ago when my big fat yellow tom cat was a curious and adorable little thing, he made the mistake of sticking his paw in Tony's cage. Well, Tony "explained" it to him, and since then, he's had no interest in the birds. The other two cats just accept that that's how it is.

I know that's off topic- your analogy was great - I just had to add that.

@Volpe, religious women don't miscarry??

@Chris, I also don't believe in the existence of a deity, but I don't begrudge people using their faith to get through a difficult time. Whether it's an addiction or a crutch, or a comfort or a support or a blessing, it's what this person needed to get through a tough time. That doesn't make it "true" in some objective, universal sense, but it's certainly true enough *for her* to be able to get her through her addiction and build a better life for herself. Not every religious person is a hateful Bible-beating bigot who wants to make life miserable for everyone who doesn't believe as they do, so I think, in this case, giving her a pass on her religious impulse is probably indicated.

Unless and until her religious choices personally impact *me* and my life and my rights, I'm perfectly happy to let her make her own choices about what to believe without needing to make a negative comment.

(I really do like your suggestion about telling her story to young people and other recovering addicts, though, I think that's a fabulous idea.)

@Casey, you're very sweet, but please note I can be awfully verbose myself, sometimes, as long-time readers here well know. :-)

Re: jajjaaj (#33)

I think you make a good point about how it is for some recovering addicts in LW2's shoes – with some people, the ex-addict is never able to regain trust or otherwise good relations, and no amount of time will heal the wounds.

Chris # 14
Exceptional advice to LW 2! Sharing her history can be very cathartic and perhaps keep others from walking the path she did.

Jane # 19 Re LW1
Excellent post! Great analogy.

I will never understand why anyone goes into a relationship thinking they can “change” the other once they move in together, get married, have kids….etc.

My husband and I had a wonderful relationship and marriage for 30 years. Everyone told us what a unique and loving bond we shared. That we had the best marriage of anyone they knew. We were often asked what the key to a happy marriage was. The advice we shared was this:

1. Never go into a relationship with rose colored glasses. Know all that you can about your partner. Hire an investigator if you have any doubts BEFORE making any commitments.

2. Accept your partner for who they are. If there is something about your partner you don't care for, like being a momma's and daddy's boy as in LW 1's case, accept it or move on. You can not change them into who YOU want them to be. They are who they are.

3. Respect. If you don't respect your partner your relationship is doomed for the start. This is not to say you must agree on every single thing in life, however you do have to value their opinion even if you see the issue in a different light.

4. Best Friends. My husband and I enjoyed the time we had together and there was no one we would rather be with. If you prefer to spend your time with someone other than your partner more times and not, then they are not the one for you.

I'm certainly not saying we never fussed, of course we did but it was few and far between. I remember the first time I was angry with him, and I was even more so when he wouldn't engage me in this argument I was trying to have with him. He told me, it was ok for me to be upset (I don't even remember what it was I was upset about) however just because I was angry with him didn't mean he had to be angry with me. I have never forgotten that.

@Mike H: I've actually been a daily reader since 2009, so I know all posters have their occasional “bad” post :)

It appears that from Carly O's perspective, to be worthy of advice on the subject you want advice on, you must disclose all other information about your life. Otherwise, she thinks we should just assume that you have other problems that you aren't writing in about, and criticize you for those problems.

Let's do that with Carly O. Nowhere in her comments did she say whether or not she had kids, or how her kids are taken care of. OUTRAGEOUS!! "Taking her comments at face value," I can only assume that she has kids who she does not feed or clothe. I mean, right? She didn't say she's NOT doing that, so I have to assume that she is. And I'm appalled.

@Maggie Lawrence: relief and horror aren't the only two reactions -- and your reaction isn't necessarily the "opposite" of Casey's. I can't speak for Casey, but I can see someone "freezing up" during that conversation not necessarily because of the "horror" of miscarriage (which implies some sort of sympathy for the person going through the miscarriage), but because sometimes this kind of information is overwhelming, and the person hearing this information for the first time "freezes" -- as in, "wow, what do I do with this information? What do I say?" That could go double for the person who didn't know her "back in the day" and had no idea that she was ever addicted to meth. Someone who has only known her to be a sensible, reliable, productive member of society and a good mother to her children might understandably be pretty shocked to learn about her past and just not know how to react, i.e. "freeze." That doesn't necessarily mean they are overcome by sympathy for the horror that the LW went through vis a vis the five miscarriages. Indeed, I can see someone feeling the same as you did -- relief that those fetuses didn't have to suffer any further -- and "freezing up" not knowing what to say or do upon hearing all this.

Having had three miscarriages myself -- none of them due to any sort of negative action I took (I wasn't smoking, drinking or doing drugs, nor was I eating anything I shouldn't have or engaged in any behavior that might have caused a miscarriage) -- I'd like to address the "horror" of miscarriage.

It is, of course, different for every person, and potentially different every time for a woman who has more than one miscarriage. For me, personally, there was no "horror." I was sad, because these were planned pregnancies -- but I was sad for maybe a day. I looked at it this way: I miscarried because there was something wrong with the fetus, which means that if I had carried that fetus to term, the baby wouldn't have been healthy. I knew I could try again, and if I had never managed to have a baby "the old-fashioned way" we could have explored adoption. When I tell people that I miscarried three times before having my son, people always offer their sympathies, and certainly I appreciate it -- but it's also clear that people expect me to be a basket case over these miscarriages or that even if I am not currently a basket case, I surely must have been completely and utterly devastated at the time they happened. While I am sure some women ARE devastated when they miscarry, particularly if they miscarry over and over again, I wasn't.

And it was relatively easy for me to be so sanguine about it -- for one thing, all three of them occurred early in the first trimester, so that is easier both physically and emotionally. I am currently six months pregnant. If, God forbid, something went wrong with this pregnancy and I lost the baby, it would be far more devastating -- I've had a lot of time to grow attached to this baby, made lots of plans for her, etc. Moreover, the physical ramifications are far greater when you miscarry further along into the pregnancy. Indeed, I know someone who miscarried at eight months -- and she had to go through full labor and delivery like any expectant mother, knowing all the while that at the end of all that effort, she would give birth to a corpse. That would be a truly horrible and horrifying experience.

In the LW's case, a big part of the "horror" is knowing that she very likely did have an active role in killing those babies. Yes, it's possible that her miscarriages had nothing to do with her addiction, but I suspect any doctor would tell you it's highly unlikely. Whether it was directly because of the drugs' effects on the fetuses, or whether it's because other aspects of her lifestyle -- nutrition, healthcare, etc. -- were impacted by her drug addiction, it is far more likely that her drug addiction had SOMETHING to do with her miscarriages. It is easier for me to be guilt-free about my three miscarriages -- they were through no fault of my own. And, as I stated in my previous post, even if all five of her miscarriages had absolutely nothing to do with what she was doing while she was pregnant, the reality is that she very obviously was NOT doing right by those babies when she was pregnant with them -- she SHOULD feel guilty about that. Again, I don't think she should torture herself over this permanently, I'm just saying that it is reasonable and understandable that she feels guilty about her actions.

And to tie all this back to the original point -- the person hearing about the miscarriages "freezing" upon hearing about it...I know that when I tell people about my miscarriages that they are going to feel sympathy for me and that some people are not always entirely sure how to react/respond, what to do/say. And that is partly because they have no way of knowing to what degree I was "devastated" by this or not -- because, as I said before, no two women feel the same way or experience it the same way. So, when I share this information, I am always quick to reassure the listener that I am at peace with what happened, because I do know that some people are understandably shocked by it and "freeze."

Re: Maggie

Je t'aime! Do your amazons get along with each other? I have two little conures, I love them so much! My cats are fine with the birds - Libby escaped her first cage a couple years ago while I was at work, when I got home and realized she wasn't in it, I looked around expecting to see feathers everywhere. But she was just sitting on top of the cat tower, sleeping. Like you I don't "let" them interact but if they do, I don't have many fears. She did get batted off the couch by a cat I was fostering once (I have never SEEN a bird look so sorry for herself, acted like her wing was broken, but when she ate some cheese I figured she was ok - I did get her on some antibiotics because cats are gross), so now I the foster cats only come out when the birds are in bed.

Re: Lisa

On the freezing - I agree, it's not necessarily in horror. If someone told me that, I wouldn't know what I was supposed to say. My true feeling would be relief, but what is this person wanting me to tell them? I'm not a counsellor. It's just like when people tell me they are pregnant. To me that would be terrible, so I have to take a second and think - does this person want me to congratulate them, sympathize with them, or ask them a bunch of questions about how they are doing? We see letters here sometimes from people complaining about one thing or another - it's hard to know what's right to say, I guess, and it can take a few seconds to come up with something that's not totally asinine.

My grandma miscarried 6 times (and had 3 children successfully) and has the same attitude... they were flawed fetuses. So she is not sad about it.

@Bailey -- truly lovely relationship advice, and I agree with every word. I'd like to add a bit of a corollary or caveat to the part about not trying to change someone or hoping/expecting them to change. It is absolutely true that we need to accept a person "just the way s/he is" and not be trying to change them or hoping that they are magically going to change once we move in with them or marry them, etc. But I think something that often gets lost in the equation is the fact that people DO grow, develop and change over time, and we can't expect them to remain the exact same person we met 5, 10, 20 years ago, just as we, ourselves, will also grow, develop and change over time, even if we don't realize it. We need to have at least some flexibility and understanding that SOME things can and do change.

LW2, if you're reading BTL, I commend you for your victory over drugs and your tremendous courage in writing so candidly today. The Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Your words acknowledge God's blessings in the form of 2 beautiful sons. Confess only to give comfort, healing, or encouragement to the listener, not as a means of unburdening yourself. After all, you are a brand new person and unconditionally forgiven. I encourage you to continue growing and learning in your faith.

@Zoe -- So totally agree with you about not always being sure about how to respond when someone tells me they are pregnant. Obviously, not every pregnancy is planned, wanted and welcomed. I worked with a guy whose wife very nearly died through some rare complication during her pregnancy -- miraculously, both she and the baby (who was born more than three months premature and was hospitalized for a long time before he could go home) survived, and she was told it would be extremely dangerous for her to get pregnant again, and that if they did want more children, they should wait AT LEAST two years before trying again, and even then, they should seriously consider adoption instead of running that risk again. So, you can imagine my surprise -- and, frankly, huge concern -- when he told me she was pregnant not even a full year later. Honestly, even though I knew they wanted to have more children, I really considered the fact that she was pregnant again so soon to be something of a catastrophe. I really wan't sure how to react. As it happens, they were both thrilled, and luckily, she carried the baby to term and gave birth with no problems, so it was all good, but still, I really wasn't so sure what to say when he first told me.

Similarly, I've mentioned that I volunteer with a group of female students at a nearby university. Recently, one of them told us she was pregnant. The politically correct response is to say "congratulations," which is what I did -- but honestly, as far as I was concerned, this was NOT a good thing. This was not a planned, wanted pregnancy. Moreover, she was not in a committed relationship with the father, who wanted nothing to do with the baby. She is not likely to finish her schooling any time soon (if ever), and she is not in any sort of position to provide a good life for this baby. She has a long and difficult road ahead of her, and I'm not sure how much support she's going to get from her family. But she was acting all excited about it, and all of the other young women in the group were also acting all happy and excited for her -- and that's all fine and good and probably for the best, I guess. But honestly, were I in her situation, I'd be terrified, not happy and excited. So, I totally understand what you're saying about not being sure what to say when you hear someone is pregnant. These days, we are supposed to act like every pregnancy is a blessing, but the fact is not all of them are.

Re: Maggie Lawrence #39
"Thank God there are five more babies that will NOT be born to a meth addict!"
We're in agreement over that one!

@Lisa #45
"she had to go through full labor and delivery like any expectant mother, knowing all the while that at the end of all that effort, she would give birth to a corpse. That would be a truly horrible and horrifying experience."
Especially since the delivery will have been made twice as hard because they baby wasn't helping himself. And then there will have been the countless sollicitations for infant formula and diaper services and baby photographers etc etc etc, because these people get their names from hospital lists of women who delivered. Poor woman.

Re: Lisa #47

You're absolutely right. Time changes all of us in some form or fashion. We grow, we learn, and hopefully become better as our life moves forward. Unfortunately not everyone is willing or able to grow up and be responsible adult. With LW1, she knew what she was getting into and was hoping he would change. A man who has depended on his parents to support financially and emotionally all of his 50 something years is not going to change no matter what she does in an effort to facilitate the change the she wants. I just don't understand why some believe they can change someone else. The only way said person will change is only if THEY want to change as in the case of LW2. Here is a woman who has turned her life around and yet people still tend to judge her based on her past, not what she has accomplished. I'm sure there are many people (including myself) who have participated in or have done something in their past that their not proud of. Does that mean we should feel guilty and shame the rest of our life….I do not believe so. I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago, that's to be expected as we experience life. However getting back to LW1, it appears this man can not function and navigate life without his parents making decisions for him. My advice to LW1.….. move on, you will never have a happy life with this man.

Casey - for Ask Amy, try the Washington Post. They occasionally go a few days without posting and then catch up with a few at once but I really like the comment section over there.

"I can't speak for Casey, but I can see someone "freezing up" during that conversation not necessarily because of the "horror" of miscarriage (which implies some sort of sympathy for the person going through the miscarriage), but because sometimes this kind of information is overwhelming, and the person hearing this information for the first time "freezes" -- as in, "wow, what do I do with this information? What do I say?""

That's exactly what I meant, Lisa :) If someone said that to me, I'm fairly certain my response would literally be "Uhhhh...."

Thanks, Susan! I'll check out the Washington Post. I've been reading it on the Denver Post, but they really, really edit letters and don't allow for comments.

Two more points after reading through the rest of today's BTL. I'm completely with you, Zoe and Lisa, on not knowing how to respond when certain women have told me they're pregnant. Like Lisa wrote, you have to say congrats, because it's the socially polite thing to do, and you don't want to be the a$$hole who says "Oh, that sucks" and that woman responds "We've been trying for years. It's a real blessing." But some women (or more appropriately girls) just really have no business having kids and it's hard to know how to react. When my best friend from high school was 21, she told me she was 6 months pregnant and had just found out that day (which translates into she had been drinking and smoking for her entire pregnancy up to that point.) Her boyfriend was in Iraq at the time, and his best friend was the dad. Thank God she told me through an instant message, because while my response was "Congrats!" I really was on the phone with mom, panicking. Some news just shellshocks you into silence.

Second, why are so many posters assuming this woman is religious?? She said "God blessed me with two sons." That does not denote she has found God, or is religious, or whatever else. I'm not against religion by any means, and don't mean it negatively; I'm just curious why so many posters jumped to that conclusion.

Re: Casey

Non-religious people don't usually say they were blessed by god for anything, least of all children (we all know god has nothing to do with it, although you might think so going by how often his name is said!)

@Bailey -- yes, my little corollary about the fact that people grow, change and develop is NOT the message this particular LW needs to hear, for sure! Is it possible that her 50-something BF is eventually going to grow up? Well, sure, it's possible, but I don't think it's particularly likely, as he hasn't shown any signs of even thinking there's anything wrong with this, much less a desire or need to change. I only wanted to add that corollary because so often I hear people talk about some change in a loved one and act as if it was some sort of great betrayal or bait and switch. One of the most common has to do with having children. A man and woman meet, and one or the other of them says, "I don't want kids," and the other one says, "neither do I" or "that's fine with me." Then 10 years later, they're married, and one of them says, "wait a minute, I DO want kids." Or, conversely, the conversation is, "I want to have kids some day," and the other person says, "so do I," or "that's fine with me." Then 10 years later, that person says, "wait a minute, I do NOT want kids."

Now, sometimes it IS a bait and switch -- someone pretends like they are OK with not having children, secretly assuming that the other person is eventually going to change his/her mind, for example. But just as often, it is simply a case of someone being in a much different place 10 years later. When I was dating my now husband and it was clear things were heading toward marriage, I told him, "look, I'm not saying I will definitely never want children, but I want you to know that right now, I cannot imagine ever wanting them, and there is a very good chance that I never will. If you want to be with me, you have to be able to live with the possibility that you will never be a father." He said he was fine with that. And he was...for a good 10 years. And then he came to me and said, "to my surprise, I find that I really would like to be a father. I know I told you I was OK with it if we never had children, and I still am. But I would ask that you give it some thought and see if, perhaps, you think you might want children, too." That conversation scared the living daylights out of me, because I was perfectly happy without children and had no hankering to have them. He assured me that he wasn't making this any sort of condition to staying married -- he could remain happily married to me without ever having children. He just wanted to re-open the conversation and have both of us seriously reflect on what we did or didn't want.

This was no bait and switch. No one was being mislead, no one was being dishonest. No one was secretly hoping that the other would magically change his/her mind. It was a simple matter of someone who, over time, found himself feeling differently about something that had been "decided" long ago.

Obviously, since I've mentioned the three miscarriages and the fact that I have a son and now a daughter on the way, I agreed to reconsider and decided to give motherhood a try. And while that's a "happy ending" (or, perhaps more accurately -- a happy beginning of a whole new life for us), that's honestly not the point. The point is that sometimes people do change on important, fundamental things and it's not ALWAYS a betrayal or a bait-and-switch. And just as we need to accept a person as s/he is in that moment, we also need to accept that neither a person nor a relationship exists in a vacuum.

I'm glad Casey asked about Ask Amy.

I've always read it at the Chicago Tribune, and there is a link for facebook comments, although I don't go (no time!) But just today they have barred me as non-USA. The cheek! Is there any other reliable site that doesn't trim the column? I will try the Washington Post, as mentioned by SusanM.

Re: Kitty

You wrote, "Re: Michelle: I agree with your comment on LW1 that the LW will ultimatly end up being a substitute "Mom" at some point. That was something I was thinking at the time I originally posted, but forgot to mention. The LW definitely needs to get out of this situation as soon as she can."

Unfortunately I lived it with my ex. His mother didn't financially support him. Just the opposite, actually. He supported her too-lazy-and-too-entitled-to-get-a-job arse. But she babied him in every other way. She reminded him to do everything which is why he was one of the most irriesponsible people I have ever known. He was in his mid 30's when I married him (and up until then, lived with Mommy babying him) and he forgot everything. He would forget to take his wallet with him when he left the house 9 times out of 10. He would forget to take his lunch to work quite often. He locked himself out of the house at least 4 times a week because he forgot to take his keys with him (our door automatically locked when you shut it). His mother made all of his doctors appointment for him and went with him to fill out the paperwork herself. He expected me to take over. He would say, "You have to remind me to get my wallet/my lunch/my keys, etc." I refused. I told him I was not going to treat him like a 5 year old and that he had to learn to be responsible. After we were married, he drove with an expired inspection and registration because I didn't "remind" him to pay the registration and I didn't make the inspection appointment for him and remind him to go. He blamed all that on me, by the way. When you raise a big baby...you get a big baby.

@Casey and Zoe (55 and 56) -- actually, I HAVE heard people who are not religious say things like, "I guess it was God's will" and the like. Certainly, someone who is staunchly atheist and staunchly anti-religion, isn't about to toss something like that off (unless s/he is being facetious or something). But someone who, perhaps, was raised in a religion that s/he no longer practices or even believes in, but the remnants of being raised in that religion still remain, might say something like that. Moreover, you can believe in God without being "religious" -- depending on how you define "religious." I know LOTS of people whom I would never describe as being religious who are either agnostic or believe in God but don't subscribe to any sort of organized religion. I am a good example. Not only do I not subscribe to any sort of organized religion, I have a pretty GIANT chip on my shoulder about organized religion and think that many types of organized religion do and have done far more harm than good in the world. But I do believe in some sort of higher power -- I just make no claims to knowing whether that "higher power" is a he, a she, an it or a they. So, I definitely am NOT prepared to make any assumptions about the LW being religious, simply because she said "God blessed me with two children."

Indeed, if anything, the lack of any other mention of God with respect to her conquering her addiction and turning her life around makes me think it more likely that she is a pretty "casual believer" in God and not truly a religious woman of deep faith and belief. But due to the magic of editing and omission, it's certainly possible that she IS deeply religious, in which case those posts that have sought to appeal to her faith were probably spot on.

@Casey, I'll echo Zoe's sentiments about using the word "God". Although it is true that certain phrases are just so ingrained in our culture that nonreligious people may still use them ("God Bless You" or "G---D---t!" come to mind), a lot of the nonreligious tend to avoid that language.

You're right in that we may be assuming too much, but it's probably a reasonable assumption to make.

As a related aside, I have to admit that I found it more difficult to "come out" as an atheist in my early 20s than it was to "come out" as gay when I hit 30. Many in my family and a small number of friends were quite difficult about my then-new non-belief, and some got quite aggressive and proselytizing.

At one family party I used one of these common cultural phrases in a conversation -- I may have said something like "God knows what will happen next" or rebutted someone by saying "Oh, God, what the heck are you thinking saying something like that to me?" And this was *immediately* jumped on as "proof" that I secretly was a believer and that I ought to own up to it. I mean, these people were practically cackling with glee at having "unmasked" my "deception".

Since that time I actually became a little overly sensitized and will often make a point of saying "Buddha knows" or "Buddha willing" instead of using the "G" word for fear of confusing some too-eager Christians. (And while many forms of Buddhism have multiple deities, believing in a deity or an afterlife is not required for following Buddhist philosophy).

Re: Lisa

I would agree with you a bit more if she had SPOKEN "God blessed me with...", but that she wrote it means there was more intent than if she had just said it. It is possible that she is not religious but dropped the G-bomb anyway, but I think it's more likely that she is religious to some degree, and believes in the Catholic god.

Well, not specifically Catholic, but you get what I mean.

Did anybody else lose power? Our whole town lost power with the snowstorm, but it's back on now. I've waited all winter for a decent snowstorm and it finally comes in March!

Oh Zoe, the birds are as funny in their own way as the cats are. I let only Tony out of his cage (the other two are biters! - but good talkers). He hollers for me until I bring him into the room with me. My son-in-law made a portable perch for him so I can take him with me anywhere in the house. And he's VERY jealous of my husband. He sits on the one female's cage and lets her scratch his head through the bars, but then when it's her turn for pleasure he just stares off into space. (Sound familiar?) I realized that they recognize sex by behavior, not colorings. It's not like wild birds where male and female may have very different colorings.

Mike, I wouldn't argue this with you because that would be pointless, but do you realize the corelation between people brought up in strict religious households (very often Catholic) and people declaring to be agnostic or atheist? In other words, a reaction to orthodoxy and sometimes very strange rituals and beliefs for their own sake? Almost every person I know who claims to be an atheist was brought up Catholic - which tells me they haven't gotten past the reaction and push-back stage. I would just add - it's not God's fault what the Catholics believe.

@Michelle
Sorry you went through that, but that was pretty much what I thought would probably happen if and when the LW's BF lost his parents. He'd just turn the LW into a new Mommy :(

@Maggie Lawrence
"Did anybody else lose power? Our whole town lost power with the snowstorm, but it's back on now. I've waited all winter for a decent snowstorm and it finally comes in March!"
We were supposed to get a TON of snow today in northern VA, and everything was closed. Where I live, we got about an inch which is now gone. No lost power, although farther west there were apparently a lot of power losses. We haven't had any snow this winter either, and I was actually looking forward to it. I guess we'll have to wait until next year.

@Zoe -- you bring up a good point -- that she wrote it does suggest more "intent" than tossing off that phrase in a spoken conversation. I'm just sort of surprised that, if she really is a "religious" person and "found God" during her recovery, etc., that she makes no other mention of God when talking about her recovery and how she has turned her life around -- especially when talking about how some friends and family continue to judge her, as I'd have expected her to say something like, "I found God during my recovery, and it's by His grace that I been able to remain sober," or even something like, "they see me attending church regularly and know I have changed my ways with the help of our Lord, but still they judge me..." or what have you. As I noted before, that could simply be an issue of editing -- she may well have offered more information that would have marked her as being religious. But the other thing that makes me wonder is that typically when someone "finds God" or embraces a religion or converts, etc., that usually (but certainly not always) means they've become more engaged in a church and/or would be likely to seek out religious counsel already (and again, she may have done so, and it's just not mentioned here). Moreover, if her recovery was via a 12-step program or something similar to it, she likely was subscribing to a "higher power" of some sort and is already involved with some sort of ongoing counseling. Of course, 12-step programs and higher powers aren't the only ways to beat an addiction, so she may not have gone that route. We don't know. I'm not arguing that her being religious is a completely off-the-wall bet -- in fact, I think it's a relatively safe bet -- I just wouldn't bet the ranch on it (if I had a ranch!).

Re: Lisa #57
I agree with you Lisa. I wasn't trying to indicate that no one has the right to change their mind or viewpoint on any given subject such as having children or not having children. You and your husband made a JOINT decision after 10 years of marriage to revisit the conversation as to whether to have children or not. You obviously also made the JOINT decision that you two wanted to be parents. I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. I also agree there was no bait and switch and I wish you much joy, love and happiness.

When my husband asked me to marry him, I was 28 and he was 36. We each had been married before and we each had a child/children. I had one son and he had two. Before I said 'Yes” he wanted to make sure I understood that although I was still young enough to have more children, he wasn't interested in having any more. We had of course discussed this prior to the proposal, and I too was not interested in having more kids. We were our 13th or 14th year of marriage and there was a point where I thought I might be pregnant. I told my husband and his response couldn't have been more loving ….. “If you are let's hope it's a girl!”
Turned out I wasn't, but he would have been ok if I had been. So yes people do change their mind.

My issue is with those that do bait and switch, or those who believe they can mold someone into who they want them to be. As I stated earlier, LW1 was aware that the BF was self centered and dependent on his parents and it's become a source of frustration for her. Why she would ever want to cultivate such a relationship is beyond me. That's all I'm saying.

LW1

I have to agree with everyone else who said the problem is you, not your boyfriend and his parents!


LW2

I commend you for staying clean for 5 years thus saving your own life and radically improving your kids lives and hope for the future. As we know, not everyone can make a break from the throws of addiction and I think you owe it to yourself to try and remember and keep in mind what you've accomplished. I'm sorry that the people you are turning to for support express judgment and contempt for your past rather than acknowledging what you've accomplished and supporting you and your children. I would suggest you close the subject as far as your friends and relatives are concerned and stop giving them the chance to voice their opinions.


For what it's worth I would steer clear of religious counseling as it is in my opinion not likely to alleviate your guilt and could in all likelihood add to it. Talking with a neutral third party as the Annies suggest seems like the best course. For all we know you could have had very early miscarriages and the religious folk are piling on guilt and shame due to their extreme beliefs.


LW3

I'm sorry your son is mistreated by his peers. Honestly though, your letter doesn't make me feel any safer.

Re: Chris (#30)

Without getting into another long-winded argument, I agree with Maggie: religion and belief in God (or other Supreme Being that humans worship) DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ONE AND THE SAME. I think many people confuse the two. It is NOT an addiction to be a firm believer in God or to help guide you through life.

Maggie Lawrence (#39) put it well, I thought, in her response to you. Most who are believers in God aren't beating their Bibles at a street corner and/or knocking on doors and bothering people who want to just go about their daily business. Many others who do preach Scripture do so in their right place and time, but in the meantime they are helping serve others in many ways that are too numerous to list (and I don't have time to list).

Please don't hold it against those of us Christians, et al., who choose to follow our beliefs.

@Maggie... *sigh* I'm going to try to take your comment in the best possible light, but please understand that your argument does seem rather reductive and even condescending. I very much understand that from your framework, understanding atheism may seem difficult, and its obvious as to why you might want to latch onto such an explanation for people's atheism. But that's not my experience at all -- or at least, it's such a small part of my experience that it really misses the point.

After dealing with family, friends, and even relative strangers trying to "convert me back" throughout my 20s, it's not as if I haven't heard all the arguments before. And for a long time I was actually interested in the debate, testing myself, because giving up a belief in God wasn't something done on a whim or out of a tantrum. But the problem was I got too good at those debates and ended up hurting some feelings, and even in a few cases creating doubters out of those who had always assumed their faith was rock solid.

But I'm not an evangelist for atheism or Buddhism, and I'm not really interested in converting anyone. And so for the past 15 years or more, I've learned to tread carefully when this subject comes up. I respect believers, but I don't believe as they do, and I've never, not once, ever heard an argument for the existence of God that was particularly convincing. I lead a good, happy, ethical life, and I cherish the good things in my life and try to be more of a positive than a negative to the people around me, but I do it for my own reasons, and because of the things I learned through Buddhism that I strive to emulate.

Yes, absolutely, my initial loss of faith was traumatic and there was a push-back stage, but it lasted about a year (in which I was a militant atheism who scornfully blamed religion on all the evils of the world). But following that stage was the beginning of an intense searching that lasted... well, in some ways, the search never ended, but the intensity was about 3-4 years. I spoke with people, clergy, of all sorts of faiths, debated religious issues, read the sacred texts of a dozen different faiths from around the globe.

My atheist-Buddhist personal philosophy is not simply a reaction against rigid Catholic dogma, but the fruits of a deep search for both meaning in life and also a truth that reflected the reality of my own experiences.

And that's why it's a little reductive, and a little condescending, for you to suggest otherwise, as though some how there's a childishness or immaturity to atheism -- although I realize you didn't mean it that way.

@ Bobaloo

I think both you and Maggie Lawrence are confused by what I wrote. My post was not a commentary about religion or a judgment against those who practice it, though I concede it could have been read that way. I should have more succinctly conveyed my simple clinical message that recent studies show how religion itself triggers many of the same psychological and physiological responses as drugs. Evidently, addicts and recovering addicts turn to religion for this very reason which is why I chastised nanchan for recommending that approach to the LW (e.g., trading one addiction for another.) Your beliefs, Maggie's beliefs, or the pros and cons of religion itself are completely irrelevant to my post. All that being said, practicing religion is far less destructive than doing a hardcore drug.

re: #58 Ask Amy:

I read Ask Amy at the following link:

http column slash slash www.tmsfeatures.com slash columns slash advice slash ask-amy slash

Re: Chris (#72)

Thanks for the clarification. As far as nanchan's remarks go and the Christian approach that LW2 MAY (or by chance may not) be taking, if it is working for her, then more power to her. If by chance LW2 were to have chosen a secular approach or a different religious approach (e.g., Judaism, Islam, etc.), I might not necessarily agree but if that approach works best, then that's the approach she needs.

Of course the LW needs to make up her own mind. All that we (and others) can do is give her the reasons why a given approach works best.

To clarify my post.

I completely disagree with Chris's asinine comment that religion is a form of addiction. I respect his right NOT to believe, but he can't seem to respect people who DO believe and that is so pathetic, I didn't want to respond. However, I felt I had to defend why I wrote my post.

1. First of all, many 12 step programs are based on the concept of a "higher power". The definition of what the higher power is, is up to the individual, from what I understand. I clearly say in my post that I approached my answer based on the fact that God was mentioned, and since the LW is a recovering addict, and likely in a 12 step program, I based my response on that.

2. I have as much right to be a Christian as anybody has the right to believe anything.

3. Part of the point of these boards is to see other opinions and to see other ideas. I simply gave one opinion.

See you all on today's thread.

Re: nanchan (#75)

Amen to your comments.

Indeed, all of us gave one opinion on how LW2 can approach dealing with her past and moving forward with her future. I do think there's only one thing you can change, the last time I looked.

The funny thing is, I also regarded Chris' recommendation of talking to youths about the dangers of meth use as a great idea. Perhaps those things can go hand-in-hand, who knows?

@ nanchan

Your reading comprehension is way off base. Go back and read BOTH of my posts on this subject. I clearly quoted recent studies that scientifically compared psychological and physiological responses of both religion and drugs. The studies find a very strong similarity between the two. What I wrote has nothing to do with what I believe, what you believe or what my cat believes. I related only what I have read and conveyed that information to BTL because some people actually like to think for themselves and expand their worldly knowledge. Stop pretending that I somehow insulted your faith.