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His Most Familiar, Her Least Favorite
Dear Annie: When I married three years ago, my hubby and I were best friends. Then his mother moved to town, and everything went downhill.
My in-laws disrespected and trashed my rental home. I was hurt that they would do this, because I was extremely nice and financially generous to them. Ever since, she has been working to turn everyone against me, including my husband. If he doesn't do what she wants, she makes him feel guilty. She has put so many nasty ideas into his head that he has turned into a different person.
It's not only her. His entire family is selfish, uneducated and manipulative, and they have a very "macho" mentality. I don't much care for this new version of the man I married. Do I give him time and hope he changes back? Or is this simply who he was all along and I was wrong about him? — Beth in Baltimore
Dear Beth: We think this is the version of your husband that is most familiar to him. When he is around his family, he reverts to type. It doesn't mean he can't behave differently if he is motivated enough, but he has to recognize the family dynamic and assert himself. It may require spending less time around his relatives, and he may be unwilling to do that. The real question is whether he likes being the guy he is now or wants to be the man you married. Talk to him about it, and if necessary, get counseling.
Dear Annie: When company comes and snacks are put out, I always include a small spoon so that treats like candy and nuts can be removed without a person touching the entire contents. But many guests don't get the point.
One person came in saying he had been suffering from the flu and was still feeling under the weather, so we should keep our distance. He then proceeded to pick through the nut bowl, even though there was a ladle in it. I threw the rest of the nuts in the trash and hoped other guests hadn't been contaminated.
Please remind people that their hands don't belong in a shared bowl unless they've just scrubbed for surgery. Thanks. — Staying Healthy
Dear Healthy: Many people, sick or well, don't consider that sticking their fingers into a shared bowl of snacks can transmit the germs on their hands to the next person. (So can a frequently handled serving piece.) You can ask your guests to please use the serving pieces because it's cold and flu season, etc., but some folks will pay no attention. Another option is to serve snacks that do not require that your guests reach into the same receptacle.
Dear Annie: I started to cry when I read the letter from "Heartbroken in New York," whose husband drank. I made the choice to end my marriage of 21 years because I could no longer take the Jekyll and Hyde man I was married to. Nothing I did was "right." I was "boring and unspontaneous." The truth was, I was being sensible. He would drink, decide I was dull and then leave to go to a bar. Many of our fights were because I hid the car keys from him. Eventually, he stopped coming home and went directly to the bar.
I finally asked him to leave and not return unless he agreed to counseling. It was then that he admitted he is gay. I was relieved. I thought he would be happier now that he was being honest. But he is the same mean jerk to his partner, and he is still drinking. I now wish I had left him years before. I did an injustice to my kids by exposing them to his verbal abuse for so long. It's better to be alone than to have someone who treats you like this. — The Grass Is Greener
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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96 Comments | Post Comment
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* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *
LW3 refers to the first letter on 13 January 2013, and was also discussed on 16 February 2013.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:12 PM
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LW1: Sorry, but this is who you married, and he will not change. This is why you should never marry someone before you meet his or her family. Be glad you've wasted only three years on this spineless loser.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Baldrz
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:06 AM
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LW1 - I'm very much afraid that the way the LW's husband is behaving since his family is around is his true personality, and the man she married really doesn't exist. To answer her final question: Yes, this IS who he was all along and he has reverted to that. It's good that the LW found this out early and before children were brought into the mix. I don't think he's going to change back into the person she thought he was. She can try having a serious conversation with him about it, but if that doesn't work (which it probably won't as long as his family is around), then her only recourse is to end the marriage and move on.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Kitty
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:12 AM
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LW2 - People who continually stick their hands into the serving dishes instead of using the utensils provided aren't likely to have an epithany after reading an advice column, nor are they likely to pay any attention to any admonitions given by the LW in the future about it. If the LW continues to invite this type of person to her home, then she should plan ahead and only serve snacks that don't require "dipping" into the bowls.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Kitty
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:18 AM
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Um, I hate to tell you this, LW2, but what difference is it going to make whether everyone's germy hands touch the nuts or touch the spoon instead? Yes, the nuts may stay cleaner (cough, cough!) but everyone is still going to be picking up the germs of everyone else who has touched the spoon, and then putting the nuts into their mouths with those same germy hands. You might as well go and lick an elevator button. Why not keep your nuts to yourself during flu season and as the Annies said, serve things in individual dixie cups or cake already cut up onto plates.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Jane
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:19 AM
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LW1 - Oh, honey, I have been in your shoes! When my ex and I were first married, things were pretty good. Not perfect by any means but pretty good. I contributed a lot of that to him moving out of his controlling, manipulative, b#tchy mother's house. He was happy with me. She didn't like that. How dare he be happy with another woman! And so the manipulative tactics and guilt trips started. She got to him and he turned on me and took it out on me. She would not stop until we divorced. She wanted me OUT of the picture. I told my ex I wanted to go to counseling and he said, "You're the one with the problems, YOU go!"
So I did. I went by myself. After nearly 1 year of the counselor's advice (which was very good) not working, she finally said to me, "He's never going to change. He will always listen to his mother. Do yourself a favor and divorce him." When I told him I wanted a divorce, he turned into a crying, slobbering mess and was all, "I loooooove yooooou!!! Pleeaaaaase don't leaaaave meeeee!" He agreed to go to counseling with me. Well, due to an illness, my counselor couldn't see us for weeks. That was all his mother needed to realy, REALLY work him. And that she did. We walked into the counselor's office and he told her I was a psycho liar. I told him I wanted a divorce right there and - again - cue the crying, slobbering, "Nooooooo! Ioooooove youuuu!" garbage. He went back and forth to calling me names and crying in that one hour session. At the end of the session, I said, "I want a divorce."
That was 9 years ago. The last I heard (and this was a number of years ago) he went back to catering to his Mommy and was very, very, miserable. Good riddance.
I don't blame his mother, per say, although she did have a part in it. I ultimatley blame him for listening to her. If I were you, I'd tell him "counseling or a lawyer...you're choice." I have known husbands who turned into jerkish a-holes when there mother and/or family is involved and they agreed to counseling and did learn to tell their mother to buzz off and saved their marriages. So there is hope. I just hope your's is one of them. Good luck.
LW2 - Jane makes a great point. If people cough and sneeze and lick their fingers and then touch the spoon, it's really no different. Individual servings in cups is a great idea.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Michelle
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:51 AM
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LW1--"Do I give him time and hope he changes back? Or is this simply who he was all along and I was wrong about him?" Your question is complicated so let me explain what's happening. As long as your husband is independent of his mother's sphere of influence, he's the wonderful man you married. Unfortunately; much like Norman Bates, your husband turns into an automaton with no identity or brains, apparently, when he's under the influence of his toxic mother or perhaps in the presence of his wacky family. Here's what you need to do if you wish to save the marriage. Inform your husband point blank that ever since his mother moved to town he's become a different person. Then, insist he go with you to marriage counseling so that an unbiased third party can help you broker a compromise in which your husband limits the time spent with his mother and thus minimizes the occurrences where he transforms into her mindless zombie. If your husband isn't willing to work with you on this, then leave him. As long as he kowtows to his family you'll be relegated to second, third, or fourth place on his list of priorities.
LW2--Oh god, another germophobe; I can't stand it! Sweetie, while I will agree with you that anyone who has the flu should have the decency and common courtesy to STAY HOME! On the other hand, allowing other well people to pick through a shared nut bowl is completely harmless unless one of the people in your social circle has a tendency to stick his thumb up his butt. And speaking of that, since people routinely engage in sexual behaviors that involve putting all sorts of things in their mouths to great ecstasy, and without a second thought, I would hardly worry about someone fingering your nibbles. That's why we have immune systems dear.
LW3--It just goes to show that a leopard cannot change its spots. Bravo to you for getting the hell out of there and dumping your liar loser husband.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Chris
Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:20 AM
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LW1 -
If he's only decent when his mama is not around, then he's not. What he does is follow the stronger female, the bitchier, nastier one being seen as the stronger one in his mind. And that's not you.
I understand you want to at least try to save your marriage. But the guy isn't going to see the light all by himself, so "giving him time" is pointless. What you need is to air your grievances in a way that doesn't lead to a domestic fight, preferably with a neutral, third party to mediate. You can try talking to him first if you can trust yourself to remain calm, but that kind of complaint can very easily lead to recriminations and a huge argument.
If he won't go to marriage counselling because he's such a macho boy and that's only good for sissies, then go by yourself. You will need help to examine your options, because if he insists on putting his bitchy mother et al first, you will never win. Consequently, there arent't a million options here: if nothing will change, you either put up with it (not recommended especially if you plan on having children) or you leave. And frankly, sadly, in light of the many cases everybody in their lives will have seen, he is not likely to change.
P.S.: Choose a male counsellor. A man that macho is not liklely to put much faith in whatever women think and say. A married man is supposed to cleave to his wife, not his mother. But for you or a female counsellor to tell him that will only make it look like "you women" are all ganging up on him and tooting your own horn. But when another man tells him that, he might listen.
LW2 -
Why didn't you tell HIM that, instead of writing in to an anonymous advice column and "hoping" he will miraculously read it and see the light? Sheesh.
And frankly, what makes you think the spoon will remain sterile after people like him have touched it? People harbouring some kind of illness should wash their hands very carefully before they come to the dinner table, and cough in their elbow. At least that's what they would do is they had a minimum of consideration for others, but apparently some just don't. Serve things that come in individual portions, if you're surrounded with selfish people with no manners and no sense of hygiene!
Comment: #8
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:46 AM
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Re: Chris
"allowing other well people to pick through a shared nut bowl is completely harmless"
But she's not talking about "other well people", so why are you jumping her? She's complaining about a sick one who WON'T stay home, there is no indication whatsoever that she's concerned about the "other well people", so no, she's not being a germophobe!
"people routinely engage in sexual behaviors that involve putting all sorts of things in their mouths to great ecstasy, and without a second thought"
Yeah well, just because clueless idiots don't have a second thought doesn't mean they shouldn't. Apparently, you're one of those who don't see that oral sex is still SEX, and that you can get a disease that way exactly as if the penetration was "elsewhere"...
Sorry, but regardless of via what cavity the bodily fluids enter your body (if you get my drift), your wonderful immune system will not protect you against antibiotic-resistant STDs, herpes or HIV.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't you study biology? If yes, apparently you only went along to get the correct answers for the exams and didn't believe a word of it. I've seen nurses like that.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:07 AM
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LW1, I'm afraid it doesn't look good for your marriage. Yes, give it one last try -- getting him to counseling -- but if he won't go, or he gets defensive and uncooperative during counseling, then I'm afraid you should face the fact that your marriage is over. Don't become a doormat to this man. (I guess the only alternative is the two of you packing up and moving cross-country away from his family.)
LW2, you should start every party with every one there deeply tongue-kissing everyone else. Then it won't matter if someone puts his fingers in the peanut bowl or uses the spoon.
Plus, it turns into a heckuva night after that!
LW3, yep, gay people are no more immune to being mean, selfish jerks than straight people. I'm sorry you had to go through that, and I feel sorry for his current partner. I'm glad your life has gotten better.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:11 AM
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@ Lise Brouillette
Gee girl, lighten up! The LW stated " I always include a small spoon so that treats like candy and nuts can be removed without a person touching the entire contents. But many guests don't get the point." Clearly she's including multiple people in her rant and presumably not everyone at her party had the flu.
Also, yes I do understand that people can get diseases from sex, however, that wasn't my point. I was referring to common garden variety germs to which some people seem extremely adverse to the point of slathering their bodies with alcohol wipes one minute but then thoughtlessly engaging in all manner of body contact with their partners or others during the course of sex at other moments in time with nary a concern.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Chris
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:18 AM
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At work, we have pot luck luncheons for special holidays (Superbowl, St Patricks Day, Christmas to name a few). After one of these, someone complained and now the people who get everything set up have to wear gloves. I'm just waiting for them to get the hairnets and I'll feel like I'm back in the elementary school cafeteria! Personally, I think its overkill, but I understand how some people feel about others touching their food.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Paige English
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:39 AM
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Judging by the content of letters, the tubby, bigoted Annies and their sexist minions will have a mighty man-bashing session today.
MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Princess Bride
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:56 AM
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Re: LW1 – Your letter seems to be a little unclear. After three years of *happy marriage* you allowed your in-laws to move into YOUR rental home, and they trashed it? By the way you speak in past-tense, my impression was that you kicked them out. I think they have an axe to grind. If you didn't already, please show hubby the bill to fix the rental home. If he doesn't think that it is a big deal, have him explain to his folks that the bill will take care of everything. I don't understand people who think they can cause damage to property they don't own, then get pissed off when they have to pay for it.
I guess hubby didn't stand up for you, but it doesn't let them off the hook, if you had a rental agreement in place. Let them know that you will not be walked over, and let your husband know, as well, and I am sure they will shut the he** up, around you, anyway. Not being discriminatory, but many times the wife handles the financial aspect of the marriage, and I don't think that your husband realized how much his parent's cost the two of you.
Re: LW2 - How about a pile of *Wet Naps* beside the dishes beside the food. If people don't use them, well, you tried your best…
Re: LW3 – Who said that being an alcoholic is a *hetero disease*? Of course your husband continued drinking after announcing he was gay. Didn't change the disease. If he blamed you for his drinking, well, I guess he didn't hold off long enough to prove his point,
Comment: #14
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:03 AM
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@Jenna -- I could be wrong, but I interpreted LW3's comment about thinking her ex would improve once he admitted he was gay wasn't a suggestion that alcoholism is something that only happens to heterosexual people. Rather, that being in the closet for many years would make a person miserable enough to "self-medicate" with alcohol, and that coming out of the closet (she hoped) would allow him to be happier, which would, in turn, mitigate the need to "self-medicate" with alcohol. It's actually a fine piece of logic, as far as it goes. What it doesn't take into account, however, is that:
1) Being in the closet may not be the ONLY reason he was miserable
2) Even if the alcoholism started out as "self-medicating" for the pain of being in the closet, at some point, it became a full-blown addiction, which means that even after the reason for "self-medicating" was eliminated, the addiction was still there.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:47 AM
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@WinehouseFan -- if you're out there, I posted a response to you on yesterday's thread.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:48 AM
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LW2 -- this isn't going to make you feel any better, but the other day I was in a waiting room awaiting my appointment, and there was a TV in the room that happened to be turned to "Dr. Oz." He was doing a segment on gross things people do when no one else is looking. One of the things he mentioned was not washing one's hands after going to the bathroom. As this, apparently, is something men do more frequently than women (ALERT: that little piece of gender bias came from Dr. Oz, not me!), he focused on men. He said that many men don't wash their hands after urinating so long as their hands didn't come into contact with any urine. Men's biology being what it is, they are less likely to have their hands come into contact with urine than women, so they are less likely to feel a need to wash their hands after (REPEAT: that is according to Dr. Oz, a male doctor, not me). The problem with this thinking is that, ironically enough, the urine is the least of our worries, since urine is sterile. The problem is that the average man's groin area is rife with a variety of bacteria that can cause someone to get sick. My point: unless you are making all of your guests -- sick or well -- thoroughly wash their hands before touching that spoon in your nut bowl, the possibility of someone passing along some sort of contaminant is very real. Short of you becoming the hand-washing police, this isn't going to change. Serving only foods in individual servings is really the only other way you can "control" this with any degree of certainty. Your other choice, of course, is to stop entertaining people.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:59 AM
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PB, don't think you have a leg to stand on today. Would you like to explain how the men referenced in today's letters are somehow innocent creatures being bashed by man-hating harpies, or is it just easier to default to your usual (tiresome) motto?
Michelle - it's "per se" not "per say." It's Latin and means "intrinsically" or "in, of, or by itself"
Comment: #18
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:10 AM
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Re: Lisa (#15) – I personally choose your #2. I have lived with alcoholism all my life, it was not self-medicating (out of pain, or what have you), it is a disease, and a terrible one to die of. No one would choose that for themself, and it is not just the ONE circumstance, but many. They would get treated, endure major discomfort, a couple of weeks later feel great, and start all over again.
There was no mention of AA or any other methods the LW witnessed to help the man with his disease. Just that he was gay. Now with a suitable partner, the same occurs!! Quelle surprise!! (sarcasm emoticon).
Comment: #19
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:22 AM
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Re: Chris
Yeah, I guess she did say "But many guests don't get the point", therefore including others. But I'm thinking she may be concerned someone is coming down with something and doesn't yet know it, hence the precautions for everybody.
If she has asthma like me, contracting the flu can be quite serious. I have a good immune system and thankfully don't get it very often, but before I menopaused when my asthma was much worse, I used to land in the hospital every time. The prevalence of asthma is actually getting worse, so she may have good reason to be fidgetty. I remember how I used to flee ten metres away from anyone audibly sick.
I don't personally know anybody (or at least I don't THINK I do...) who is a germaphobe in general life and a reckless idiot in bed. That would be quite neurotic behaviour!
Comment: #20
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:30 AM
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@Jenna, to be fair, it's not at all unusual for an unhappily closeted gay man in a marriage with a woman to self-medicate in a variety of ways; and then, once out of the closet and living an honest, openly gay life, to actually be a happier and healthier person who doesn't need to self-medicate.
In this particular case, though, it seems that the alcoholism of LW's ex-husband was probably completely separate from the pain of his living a lie, not an offshoot of it.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:30 AM
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Re: Princess Bride
"MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING."
You seem so very convinced of that, I wouldn't dream of contradicting you... ;-D
Comment: #22
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:32 AM
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LW1 - Unless your MIL moves away (or you and your husband do), nothing will change. Do you want to live like that, or not?
LW2 - As Jane said - is it really better for everyone to be touching the same spoon handle? At least with direct contact you have the chance that the person only touched the items they took and ate. Frankly, it's not a big deal. We're all going to catch colds whether we share nut bowls or not. Put out the bowls, with a spoon, and let people decide if they want to take the grave risk of touching the spoon, the bowl, the nuts, etc. If it bothers you that much, you could lay out a tray of shot glasses filled with snacks, or maybe those big Asian spoons (the type with a flat bottom) (like the dixie cup idea, but reusable instead of disposable).
Re: Lise B
You can't get HIV from picking out of a communal bowl of snacks, so let's not pretend it's the same thing. Safe sex is one thing, sharing a nuts is another.
"But I'm thinking she may be concerned someone is coming down with something and doesn't yet know it, hence the precautions for everybody." -- I'm thinking she's just a germaphobe, really. She just doesn't want everyone's "germs" in the same bowl.
Re: Paige English
The average glove is just as germy as bare hands, did you know? Because you can make people wear gloves, but not make them change gloves every 5 seconds.
Re: Jenna
I think LW3 thought that her ex was a mean alcoholic because of the stress and unhappiness of pretending to be straight.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:37 AM
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@Michelle: You wrote about your ex “I don't blame his mother, per say, although she did have a part in it. I ultimatley blame him for listening to her.” How long did it take you to come to that realization? Is it something that took awhile to realize, or did you “get it” right away? I know I've told you this before, but I really admire you and your posts. It sounds like your EH (and his mom) put you through hell and you came out a stronger person because of it. Some people eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats people. You sound like a bar eater (Uh. That's meant to be a compliment, even if it sounds weird :)
Comment: #24
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:38 AM
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Re: Zoe
"You can't get HIV from picking out of a communal bowl of snacks, so let's not pretend it's the same thing. Safe sex is one thing, sharing a nuts is another."
Where did you get the idea that I was comparing the two? I never did, and was merely answering to two parts of Chris' post.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:42 AM
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Re: Lise B
10-4. I misinterpreted!
Re: Casey
OMG, for a second there, I thought you were being SUPER sardonic!
Comment: #26
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:45 AM
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Re: Mike H (#21) – please don't misunderstand. I get the hardship many closeted gay men would feel. No disrespect intended. This particular man (according to LW3) would blame her because *she was dull* WHY? He couldn't tell the truth, so he decided to ruin her self-esteem. What gave him that right, with the true secret hidden under her belt?
LW's second paragraph was the *red flag*, which you, yourself, agreed with. ANYONE can be an alcoholic, regardless of personal situations.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:46 AM
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Re: Zoe (#23) - … yes, but she found out the truth in the end, didn't she?
Comment: #28
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:52 AM
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RE: Lise Brouillette
Oh, I know you wouldn't.
After all, you're the one who compared Quebec to an Islamic state in terms of women's rights. LOLLLLL It's easier to blame an entire gender for your mistakes instead of taking responsibility for yourself.
But, hey, whatever lets you sleep better at night.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Princess Bride
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:55 AM
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RE: Maggie Lawrence
You might be right, but I missed everyone and wanted to say hi. :)
Comment: #30
Posted by: Princess Bride
Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:56 AM
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LW1: It appears that you wanted your husband for his "technique" and some of the other fun aspects, but really never got to know the family ... and quite possibly by extension, never got to know *him*.
Now you appear stuck, so what to do? Pretty much what everyone else has said – get counseling and demand he goes along with as a condition of continuing the marriage, or else it may be time to consider your options: Either put up with it and lose your sanity ... or leave.
The choice is ultimately yours.
LW2: While I agree that sometimes there's such a thing as being *too* germophobic, you also have to consider your health and those of others. I mean, others might not have good immune systems and catching the flu might be deadly ... and in this case, the clod that came to work sick so he could partake in some "free grub" ought to have been escorted right out (with a tight grip on the arm by a burly co-worker and a mule kick to the back once out the door, followed by "AND DON'T COME BACK 'TIL YOU'RE WELL!!!!!!!!") ... or given a huge stack of work. I mean, if he was well enough to come to an office party, he MUST be well enough to work, right?
But that's another issue. The issue at hand is, how do you prevent this from happening again. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees, as there are going to always be sick people, people who fail to wash after going to the bathroom (and have dirty hands as a result in addition to the usual germs) ... so on and so forth. The only thing you can do is put out the spoons and give a gentle but firm reminder when you see someone using his hands to pick through nuts, deli meats-cheese-crackers-veggies, cookies and so forth.
LW3: Straight up, the guy you married was a plain ol' f-in' asshole. A-S-S-H-O-L-E!!!! Who happened to drink. So what if he claimed he was gay? (FWIW – My bet is he wasn't ... he's just saying that to justify his asshole behavior and to absolve himself, but either way, some poor young man is paying the price.) Good riddance to him! Glad you showed him the door. He also deserved a tight grip on the arm by a burly guy and then a huge mule kick to the back ... and the suitcase thrown at him.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Bobaloo
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:04 AM
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Jenna, anyone CAN be an alcoholic.....but some people have to try a whole lot harder than others. I know you're on the pity wagon about alcoholics - ("It's a DISEASE! They can't HELP themselves! It's not their FAULT!) But calling anything that can be controlled a disease is just a clever way of removing the responsibility. The point is, the active alcoholic CHOOSES to NOT control it. Marriage, work, family, friends can all go to hell because they CHOOSE to bring the glass to their lips.
If I'm a little hot on this subject, it's because I was once married to an alcoholic, and the selfishness, the deviousness, the lying and everything else that went with it were disgusting. He was a weak human being and I ended up despising him - which was too bad, because he had a lot of positive points. The point is, he KNEW what he was doing and chose to do it anyway. Just saying "he had a disease" doesn't change any of that because if he did, it was a disease that he fed and encouraged.
By the same token, I have nothing but regard for people who do finally face it, go through AA or whatever program works for them, and kick it. That takes will power and it's a struggle, but they do it.
I'm sure people who have genuine diseases - say, cancer for instance, wish there was something they could NOT do that would negate the destructive effects of the cancer.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:06 AM
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Re: Bobaloo
Those who are immunosuppressed or at risk of complications from colds and flus should take steps on their own to limit their contact with other peoples' germs. If you know you could keel over dead from a mild cough, it's up to you to keep your damn hands out of the nut bowl. As for the rest of us, I'll eat those mms, I don't care WHOSE hands have been there. As long as there is no visible (or otherwise detectable with a microscope) evidence of crap or snot on them, I'll eat them.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:08 AM
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Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism is a choice. My mother is an alcoholic and I have NO TIME for any of that nonsense.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:10 AM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence (#32) – “I'm sure people who have genuine diseases – say cancer for instance, wish there was something they could NOT do that would negate the destructive effects of the cancer.”
I guess you didn't read my post from a couple of days ago – which genuine chronic disease would change your position – MS, Crohn's disease, eosinophilic esophagitis, and allergy to almost every known friggen food known to man? AND believe it, I still have sympathy towards alcoholics. My father died from the disease. I tried everything – but the power was too great for either of us. He died. Enough said.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:26 AM
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I guess if we think about it too much, we would never eat at restaurants or at a friends house-ever watch the Restaurant reports on the news? I eat lunch at my desk most days, and they say that's the worst place to eat because of germs. Well, I figure they are my germs, so how bad can they be?
Comment: #36
Posted by: Paige English
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:51 AM
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I kind of feel for LW1; my husband was a jerk to me and the kids, but I was mentally beaten down so much so quickly I couldn't up and leave like I should have, or nailed him to the wall and demanded counseling. But his mother was nice to me; she had lots of emotional problems while he was growing up and he went into survival mode. But he never came out of it. He seems to have mental illness too. My counselor thinks he does from what I say.
The kids and I have suffered a lot because of this, and my youngest son and I finally got to move out about 6 weeks ago. We have a lot of work to do to make a life for ourselves (it sure doesn't happen automatically), but when the husband or wife refuses for decades to acknowledge they have a problem and have been abusive, what else can you do?
I kept telling people it was like either a slow poison or Chinese water torture.
Comment: #37
Posted by: jar8818
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 AM
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Re: Princess Bride
I did NOT compare Quebec to an Islamic state, that's you going all the way from A to Z, when *I* was going from from A to B, and then trying to blame me for the Z.
If you were fair, you would remember the countless times when I slammed women for the way they treated men, and for them being dead wrong. But you only see what you want to see, and you twist everything according to your obsessive agenda.
@Jenna & Maggie
I do believe alcoholism is a disease. But, just as for any other disease, the person may not be at fault for suffering from it, but does becomes fully at fault for not getting treatment. I also don't believe everything becomes excusable from the moment the person is drunk.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 AM
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@Zoe: Haha! When I first wrote my post, I left out the part about admiring Michelle. It sounded SOOOO bad! That's why I added the part about admiring her, which is true, but it also makes me sound not like a gigantic bitch :)
Comment: #39
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:36 AM
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Is smoking cigarettes also a disease? Hmm, next time I light up, I will be sure to use that! Heh.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:36 AM
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Re: Lise (#38) – Agreed, but if you take into consideration the brain cells are lacking in comprehension, the denial phase is often the lethal phase. After a certain point, no reasoning (be it the drunk with the drunk, or a sober person with the drunk) will be able to persuade the alcoholic that alcohol is the main problem. You cannot tell an alcoholic at a certain point what is *excusable* and what isn't – their minds don't compute.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:37 AM
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@Bobaloo: You really think the LW3's ex is lying about being gay?? That's quite a commitment to a lie, considering he has a partner. “Sure I don't really like ween, but I have to stay true to this crazy web of lies I've spun!” The guy sounds like a true blue, through and through, a$shole. A true a$shole isn't going to lie about his sexuality to spare his ex's feelings or to justify his behavior. He's just going to continue being an a$shole, which is exactly what this guy is doing.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:41 AM
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@ Chris Post # 7. Your response to LW2 made me spit the water I had just sipped! Hilarious!
Comment: #43
Posted by: Tylono
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:45 AM
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Jenna, I'm sorry that your father died of his alcohol related problems, and if it comforts you to think that he "had a disease", then go ahead. But you said "I tried everything." NO ONE else can fix the alcoholic. They have to have the strength and the will power to want to fix it themselves. My grandfather was an alcoholic to the point of hallucinations and DTs - and you know what? He DID fix it - in his case, AA saved his life, but he had to want to save it. Other alcoholics care more about satisfying their craving for the stuff than anything else in life. It sounds like your dad was one of those.
You mentioned other diseases besides cancer and the fact is - anyone who suffered from any of those disorders would LOVE for there to be one thing that if they refrained from doing it, they would no longer suffer the effects of the malady. Alcoholism is a dreadful thing, but it is still up to the alcoholic to CHOOSE to stop. No one said it would be easy. And btw, I could not be an alcoholic because I don't even care about alcohol. If I did, I'd be hyper-careful because of the alcoholism in my family.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:04 AM
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I'm not sure how I feel about alcoholism as a disease. On one hand, there does seem to be some people that are simply predisposed to addiction. My family, for instance, has a pretty high rate of alcoholism and drug abuse. For that reason I've tried to stay away from those things as much as possible, because I don't want to get sucked in as well. But on the other hand, once you've become addicted, then it's your responsibility to at least try and get help. It may take you many tries to get clean, but if you're putting in a good faith effort, then I think you get credit.
As far as LW2 goes, I agree with many of the posters here that she is being a bit of a germophobe. But I will make a suggestion to her anyway. Go to the dollar store and buy some small flower vases, preferably glass or clear plastic. Then put the nuts/candy in the vases. People won't try to reach into the vase to get the food; they'll simply tip it into their hands. You still have the same issue as the spoon because everyone will be touching the vase and sharing germs that way. But it might give you some peace of mind.
Comment: #45
Posted by: Seraina
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:06 AM
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Re: Jenna
Perhaps, but it's still them with a problem they aren't doing anything about, for whatever reason good or bad. It doesn't become the fault of others. And what about the countless alcoholics who have managed to stop? Obviously, *some* control is possible. I admit there are some for whom it will be harder than others, but then the same can be said about crystal meth addiction. And yet, many have licked that too.
I'm all for having compassion and showing support, and I have known addicts in my life. But people with a problem have to help themselves. Whether the addiction be booze, cocaine or junk food, nobody will stop ingesting in their place.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:11 AM
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Re: Seraina
Hey, that's a good idea about the vase. Very inventive. And, yes, the vase would be full of germs, but it would be the outside of the vase that would be handled byall the germy hands, and the edibles are INSIDE! ;-D
Comment: #47
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:15 AM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence (#44) – Thank you so much for your compassionate post. Of course I cannot say proof-positive that Dad chose death over giving up alcohol. Perhaps I don't want to know the answer. I only know what I saw at the hospital while Dad was being detoxed. It was not fun – he was suffering badly; not once, not twice, honestly I lost count. I remember feeding him because his hands were shaking so much the food didn't have a chance of making it to his mouth. Perhaps I choose to believe no one would knowingly let this happen, yet continue the cycle if they had the where-with-all to stop it.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:35 AM
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@Jenna, absolutely -- but I was just recognizing the LW's thought that her husband would change once he came out of the closet and found a partner wasn't an unreasonable thought to have, and that in many other cases she would have been right.
@Bobaloo, the LW mentions her ex-husband now has a partner, so it's unlikely he would be "faking" gay so much that he would find a male partner!
I've encountered dozens, hundreds of gay men who pretended to be straight; I've never once met a straight man pretending to be gay, aside from actors playing a role.
Comment: #49
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:38 AM
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Re: Lise (#46) – I think that family genes have a lot of influence as to the power of the effect of alcoholism. Definitely people have a choice to stop the cycle – but what if your parents were both alcoholics? My Dad had a brother who has stayed away from alcohol intentionally because of his observance of the decay of both his parents and his brother. Yes, it initially is a choice. But, as I stated earlier, if the genes took over, thinking that “it would never happen to you”, it can take over your senses. Once that happens – let heaven help you..
Comment: #50
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:00 AM
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Re: Jenna
Your genes dictate your eye colours and your freckles. Your genes affect your tendency toward certain things (food, alcohol). Your genes do not "force" you to drink. It is a choice to start drinking, and a choice to not stop drinking. Not saying it's easy to stop drinking, but it's a choice. If all alcohol was removed from your grasp, bam, your disease is gone! That is not the case with blue eyes and cancer.
Comment: #51
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:03 AM
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Re: Zoe (#51) – I guess we were posting at the same time – Agreed!!
Comment: #52
Posted by: Jenna
Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:12 AM
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I completely agree that LW2 is a germaphobe who needs to lighten up. But there is a huge difference between touching the spoon and touching the nuts. The nuts go directly into your mouth. Assuming germs transfer from the spoon to your hand, if you wash your hand before touching your mouth, you are less likely to be exposed to the germs. And, since LW2 is a total germaphobe, I imagine she has Purel placed everywhere in her house.
Comment: #53
Posted by: myname
Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:38 AM
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Re: Casey (#24)
Thank you, again, for your kind words :) And I love being called a "bar eater!" LOL!
To answer your question, I'm not sure how long it took me to realize that my ex was the one to blame. I know for a long time I blamed his mother. I said that she brainwashed him against me. It didn't help that nearly everyone around me said, "His mother broke them up." I continued with counseling after my divorce and she made me see that while my exMIL wasn't innocent in all of that, he was the one who ultimately decided to listen to her, not stand up for me and our marriage and never tell her to butt out. At first I didn't fully believe it. She raised her kids to fear her and they were both very afraid to say boo to her. She also sheltered them big time. But the counselor pointed out to me that there are tons of people who are raised by similar mothers and they leave as adults and become different, sane people. I realized she was right. Especially since my mother was raised by a drunk father and mentally unstable mother who did nothing but scream at each other and fight. She vowed to never raise her kids in a home like that and she didn't. She and my father never screamed at each other or fought. At least not in front of the kids, anyway.
Every now and then I wonder what my life would be like if I never left him. I shudder at the thought and thank God that He gave me the strength to leave.
Comment: #54
Posted by: Michelle
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:24 PM
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@myname (53) -- Except that what are the odds, regardless of boundless access to Purell, that a person who uses a spoon to scoop nuts from a bowl then puts those nuts down to sanitize his hands before touching the nuts? Basically, you'd have to first scoop the nuts with the spoon, pour those nuts into a cup or napkin (which, with any luck, would be clean), then wash or otherwise sanitize your hands, then finally use your hands to put the nuts in your mouth. Alternatively, I suppose you could scoop the nuts with the spoon, pour the nuts into a cup and then "drink" the nuts out of the cup without ever touching them. Either way, it's kind of a lot of work just to eat a few nuts! So, I would suggest that in the vast majority of cases, there is little or no difference between using the spoon and simply grabbing the nuts with your hand. To be honest, the spoon merely gives the APPEARANCE of being cleaner and more polite, but it's unlikely to actually make much of a difference with regard to the spread of germs.
Comment: #55
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:37 PM
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Re: myname
I agree with Lisa. You would pick up the spoon (getting germs on, say, your left hand), scoop the nuts into the left hand and then eat them with your right hand while holding the rest with your left hand. You'd still get germs. I doubt anyone is going to scoop the nuts into their just-washed left hand, put the nuts down somewhere sterile, wash their hands, then pick the nuts back up and eat them. Because - face it - germs are everywhere! You're going to eat some regardless of what you do (and most of them are good for you)
Comment: #56
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:41 PM
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Can this be true?? A day without a certain poster adding her 2000 cents? She must be off visiting one of her 5000 friends, or running one of her 3 companies, or in one of the 38 countries she's lived in. I thought the BTL seemed more pleasant today.
Comment: #57
Posted by: locake
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:44 PM
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@locake #57
The day is still young.
Re: myname
Yes indeed, there is a huge difference between touching the spoon and touching the nuts, and that's precisely the point: the LW wants people to use the spoon and not take the nuts directly, especially when they have the flu.
Since it is us BTLers who suggested that the spoon would be full of germs also, not the LW, I don't see how that makes the LW a germaphobe.
Comment: #58
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:59 PM
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Re: Lise B
Her not wanting people to use their fingers to take nuts makes her a germaphobe. Thinking the spoon will help anything at all makes her an ignorant germaphobe.
Comment: #59
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:08 PM
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Somehow I've completely lost my appetite now for anything presented on a platter or in a bowl that is not wrapped tightly in plastic.
LW1 - Your husband needs to know straight up front how you feel about recent developments. Have you considered showing him the letter your sent to the Annies? As the "old" Annie used to say, you have to ask yourself, am I better off with or without him?
LW3 - I have seen regrettable ignorance shown here today concerning the subject of alcoholism. Not going to say which side I fall on, because no one is going to change anyone else's mind on this subject. People have emotional responses either way, and it's tough to argue with feelings.
Comment: #60
Posted by: Linda
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:09 PM
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@BTL -- Am I the only one who suspects the "not using the spoon to serve oneself nuts" issue is going to be one of those that just keeps coming back to haunt us in the form of "third letters" posted by the Annies in response to today's LW2? I am only surprised that no one has yet suggested that it would be cleaner to have one's dog serve the nuts...
Comment: #61
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:14 PM
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Re: Lisa
In a moment of dyslexia, I read "to serve on a dog's nuts"!
Comment: #62
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:20 PM
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Re: Linda
But what if someone with a cold wrapped the food with plastic?
Regarding alcoholism being a disease - well, I don't think anyone would argue that alcoholics aren't sick, or that they don't have a disorder. But frankly I find it mildly offensive to equate my mom's drinking problem with my grandmother's breast cancer or my husband's diabetes.
Comment: #63
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:25 PM
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Re: Zoe #59
Perhaps that makes her ignorant, but she is not a germaphobe for being concerned mainly over someone who admitted he was still still sick with the flu. I have asthma. Believe me, I'm hardly a germaphobe myself, and yet I would be concerned about that!
@Lisa #61
I hadn't thought of that, but you're probably quite right!
Comment: #64
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:31 PM
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Re: Lise B
LW2's concern wasn't really with the one person with the flu. It's with everyone who doesn't use her spoons:
"When company comes and snacks are put out, I always include a small spoon so that treats like candy and nuts can be removed without a person touching the entire contents. But many guests don't get the point."
The person with the flu was an example of an icky person who licked all the nuts in the bowl or something. Thus, the fear of germs (evidenced by the spoons) came before the germs.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:35 PM
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Re: Linda
You say you don't want to say which side you fall on. Unfortunately, unless you take position and defend it rationally (like I frankly believe we all have today), for you to state that there has been "regrettable ignorance shown here today" is a blanket statement that is offensive to all. And I am not being "emotional" when I say that.
Comment: #66
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:36 PM
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Re: Zoe
Yes, but what brougth her to the point of writing in was the guest who admitted still being under the weather, who wouln'd use the spoon. Perhaps what she means is that this is not the first time happens.
Comment: #67
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:38 PM
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Re: Lise B
We don't know that that is the case, and even if it was, that doesn't mean that her concern about germs BEFORE Mr. Flu didn't qualify as phobic.
She could easily be a germaphobe and wrote in using that flu guy as an example (a complaint about a regular healthy person gingerly picking a few nuts out of a bowl doesn't have the same effect as a flu-ridden individual touching every single nut).
The bigger crime here is probably that he was picking out all the cashews for himself. I hate it when people do that. The unwritten rule is that you take the random handful and that's what you get. You are permitted to target an area of the bowl that looks like it has a higher concentration of the kind you like, but you aren't allowed to move anything before scooping or grabbing.
Comment: #68
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:43 PM
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Maybe our missing poster ate some nuts from a bowl at one of her 5000 friends homes and got sick from it. She must encounter a lot of germs.
Comment: #69
Posted by: locake
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:50 PM
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We've all had days when we can't post for whatever reason. There is no need to be unkind while another is absent.
Comment: #70
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:53 PM
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@ Mike H Re: #49
"I've never once met a straight man pretending to be gay..."
Evidently you've never perused the M4M section of CraigsList in your town. You mean to tell that that all of the "straight" and/or married men cruising for dick on the down low aren't just pretending to be gay? Surely you jest! ;-P
Comment: #71
Posted by: Chris
Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:54 PM
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Re: Zoe
"The bigger crime here is probably that he was picking out all the cashews for himself."
Well, there is that. And the macademia nuts, let's not forget the macademia nuts. ;-D
Comment: #72
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:00 PM
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Re: Miss Pasko
Yes, Mother. (niuk niuk niuk niuk)
Comment: #73
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:01 PM
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@Zoe (62) -- LOL! Now THAT would be a MUCH more interesting debate!
Comment: #74
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:18 PM
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Re: Lisa
Yeah, where's Samantha Kimmel when we need her?
Comment: #75
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:22 PM
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Re: Linda
You say you don't want to say which side you fall on. Unfortunately, unless you take position and defend it rationally (like I frankly believe we all have today), for you to state that there has been "regrettable ignorance shown here today" is a blanket statement that is offensive to all. And I am not being "emotional" when I say that.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To say I'm offending "all" here is painting with a pretty broad brush. The message board doesn't seem to be rising up in outrage about my untimely post. I think most of us are probably more concerned about what's for dinner by this time. In any case, what you seem to be suggesting is absolutely right - if I'm not going to defend a position I shouldn't say anything to begin with. Unfortunately I tapped out a response on my little keyboard, then hit the submit option before putting my brain in gear. Which I should have done, since I make it a rule not to engage in forum debates which no one ever wins. Even more unfortunately, there is not a delete option once a post is submitted. If this annoyed or disappointed anyone, my sincere apologies.
Comment: #76
Posted by: Linda
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:42 PM
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@Chris, ha! As if you're going to trick me into admitting that poor little innocent old me knows ANYTHING about the M4M section of Craigslist... ;-)
But no jest, none of the ones *I* ever met had to "pretend"...
Comment: #77
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:43 PM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
Now listen here ~ any more of that attitude, and you'll be on the naughty step for certain. Do you hear me?
Comment: #78
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:50 PM
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Re: Linda
"To say I'm offending "all" here is painting with a pretty broad brush. "
Well, since you specified nothing one way or the other, that's exactly what you did yourself.
"The message board doesn't seem to be rising up in outrage about my untimely post. "
That doesn't make me wrong.
"If this annoyed or disappointed anyone, my sincere apologies."
Apology accepted. Time for supper!
Comment: #79
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:54 PM
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Re: Miss Pasko
(Hanging head) Yes, Mother.
(hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee)
Comment: #80
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:55 PM
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"To say I'm offending "all" here is painting with a pretty broad brush. "
Well, since you specified nothing one way or the other, that's exactly what you did yourself.
"The message board doesn't seem to be rising up in outrage about my untimely post. "
That doesn't make me wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And so the argument continues, despite the fact that an apology was offered. This is when a forum becomes pointless and unpleasant. When something stops being fun, it's better to walk away. I'm out of here. I gladly yield the floor for you to have the last word. Peace.
Comment: #81
Posted by: Linda
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:27 PM
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Sorry Miss Pasko, (# 70) that was mean of me. Especially since our missing poster is always so polite and kind to everyone.
Comment: #82
Posted by: locake
Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:48 PM
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Oh Linda, do give us all a break! After your previous post I was admiring how much of a big, mature person you were being. Now you're just acting passive-aggressive. You come here, a forum known for its lively debates, proclaiming us all to be ignorant, refuse to divulge your take on it, and acting like anyone who takes offence is overreacting because not everyone is freaking out. Then you suggest that it's wrong to counter any points you made because you apologized after (which, by the way, was a cheap "I'm sorry if you were annoyed" apology which doesn't actually mean anything) and flounce after some "last word" nonsense which has only one purpose and that is to try to shame everyone into not responding to your post, giving YOU the last word, which sure seems to be more important to you than you might like to admit.
Comment: #83
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:03 PM
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Re: Linda
Yeah, you offered an apology, and I HAD accepted it. As I was concerned, it was over...
Comment: #84
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:13 PM
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I had to share this story with BTL. Someone brought jelly beans to work today (I'm assuming for Easter.) They put them in a bowl, for everyone to enjoy. Someone during the day decided that was too "germy" and added a plastic spoon to the bowl so we could serve ourselves! I actually laughed out loud, and thought of the posters who proclaimed LW2 a germaphobe! Seeing it in action made me realize how silly the whole thing is. A spoon for jelly beans? Ha, too much
Comment: #85
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:32 PM
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@ Everyone commenting about alcoholism.
Hi, my name's Barb, and I'm an alcoholic (BTW, I'm not a fan of AA, but I've been to a couple of meetings). I quit drinking 9 1/2 years ago, and haven't relapsed once. I was an every day drinker, and turned into an asshole after two beers. I guzzled beer every night after work until I passed out, and felt guilty and horrible every morning. One day, I decided that during my one week of vacation, I was going to buy a bunch of beer, drink my face off every day, all day, until I made myself sick of it. When the beer was gone, I would quit. And I did it, and went to a treatment centre for 6 weeks. The treatment centre offered group and individual therapy to help discover why we were addicts in the first place, and also made you try relaxation, meditation, AA, and fun activities. There I learned that alcoholism shows different faces in different people, and that not everyone's addiction takes the same shape.
My theory is that for each addict, there is point of no return, and if you don't quit before your best before date, the brain damage that is caused by the addiction will make it impossible for the addict to quit. I think that's why some people can quit, and others cannot. And not everyone reaches the point of no return at the same rate.
By the way, I have conquered three addictions - cocaine (we called it freebase back then - now it's called crack), over 20 years ago (lost count), booze, and cigarettes (8 1/2 years). Interestingly enough, the only one I occasionally crave is the oldest addiction, the crack. Don't know why.
Comment: #86
Posted by: Barbara B.
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:07 PM
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Re: Casey and Mike H
Well, something just doesn't seem right with what LW3's ex-husband told her about being gay. It just doesn't. I mean, I will agree that if he's using it to justify his behavior ... that makes him even worse.
I will agree – as I've said before, he's just a god-damned asshole! I sure hope his new friend stands up to him one day.
Comment: #87
Posted by: Bobaloo
Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:27 PM
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Re: Bobaloo
Hey Brian, I'm surprised you haven't backed up your idea by quoting from "Three's Company". Go for it.
Comment: #88
Posted by: Bobaloo's biggest fan
Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:42 PM
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@Bobaloo, what "doesn't seem right"? That society, religion, and families have so ostracized and abused gay people that for generations the only option for gay people was to pretend to be straight, to force themselves into loveless marriages and every time they attempted to make love to their wives they had to close their eyes and think about hot guys just to be able to perform? And the men they were truly attracted to, maybe even falling in love with, they had to ignore or only see on the down low? And that every day, every hour, they had to constantly live in fear of doing or saying something that seemed "gay" for fear of being discovered?
And that all of that stress, all of that deception, all of that internalized homophobia might wear him down, day after day, week after week?
And then, when push finally comes to shove, when he can't take the stress of his completely fake life any more, that he comes out of the closet? Because the idea of going into counseling to save a marriage he never really wanted in the first place is the last straw in a life of too many lies?
The only thing that doesn't seem right here, Bobaloo, is a straight man questioning how a gay man comes out of the closet! Being closeted, living a lie, internalizing all that homophobia, is a *lifetime* of stress and anxiety that would be hard to really understand if you haven't lived it.
But nowhere does the LW say that her ex-husband was using his closeted life to justify his behavior -- she was just assuming, quite reasonably, that he might become a happier, nicer person once he was living an honest, open life. Which is what normally happens when one comes out of the closet, actually. In this case, it doesn't seem like it -- which is why I suspect that his issues, and his alcoholism, are even deeper than just a reaction to his living life in the closet.
And he has a new partner, not a new "friend". Just a tip -- it sounds quite dismissive of gay relationships when you use the word "friend" instead of partner, boyfriend, or husband.
Comment: #89
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:08 AM
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Re: Barbara B.
I've never taken cocaine, but from what I hear from people I know who have, it makes you feel like there isn't anything in the world you can't do. Perhaps this is what you occasionally crave? (Couldn't blame you!)
What you said about the "best before date" makes sense. And it would appear that you have what is called an "addictive metabolism/personality" - someone who seems more vulnerable than others to any substance capable of creating a dependency. (Watch it with prescription painkillers if you ever need them - stay away from them unless you absolutely can't cope without them. As much as possible, try to stick to over-the-counter whatever)
Congratulations, Barb, for the hat trick! A big round of applause and a standing ovation from me!
@Bobaloo
It may have been that he told her that, not so much as an "excuse" in itself, but as yet another pretext to attack her. As in, "See, you worhtless bitch, this is why I'm not interested in treating you like a human being, women are only good for one thing anyway and you're worthless to me for that".
Problem is, and I know this for having seen many abusive people, both in my bed and others', abusive people always have a ton of reasons to "justify" why they do what they do, all of them your fault of course, and it's never the real reason... The real reason being that they're angry bastards because of whatever's been done to them in the past and they refuse to fix it, preferring to make someone pay. Proof of which - he's got a male partner now, and he's the same asshole to him.
But that doesn't change the fact that he was really gay. Most straight men (as far as I know), even the tolerant ones who don't admit it out loud because they don't want to sound homophobic, find the idea of backside sex quite revolting. Trust me, he wouldn't go and hitch himself to a man just to make a point.
Comment: #90
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:35 AM
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Mike H:
Why does this have to do with whether homosexuality is accepted or not?????
No, what doesn't seem right is that:
1. This guy was a verbally abusive liar?
2. He's now using the "I'm gay" card to try to absolve himself. (Sorry, Mike H, I still see it that way.)
To me, this is no different than the alcoholic who uses his illness as an excuse to excuse, say, verbally and physically abusive behavior toward his ex-family.
BTW – My reluctance of using the word "partner": Please understand it's nothing personal. I've always thought of partners as business related or in a two-player team vs. two-player game (such as tennis). Just hard for me to adjust, I guess.
Comment: #91
Posted by: Bobaloo
Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:43 AM
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Re: Bobaloo
Your point #1 has nothing to do with sexuality.
Your point #2 is not true. We have no reason to believe he admitted he was gay to absolve himself. Presumably he just had no desire to go to counseling to save a marriage he wasn't interested in.
The word "partner" has been used romantically for a long time, Bobaloo, for straight people as well (non-married couples who see themselves as more than "bf/gf" for example). Get with the program.
Comment: #92
Posted by: Zoe
Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:19 PM
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Re: Zoe (#92)
"The word "partner" has been used romantically for a long time, Bobaloo, for straight people as well (non-married couples who see themselves as more than "bf/gf" for example). Get with the program."
Funny thing is, until recently, I've only heard of the word "partner" being used in the context of what I describe in #91 and not for relationships. Maybe I have been living under a rock.
"Your point #2 is not true. We have no reason to believe he admitted he was gay to absolve himself. Presumably he just had no desire to go to counseling to save a marriage he wasn't interested in."
Or, it could be he had no desire to go to counseling because he was just an abusive jerk who always thinks he's right – always, and that he took every moment to remind you of that and if you don't agree, you deserve a punch in the mouth. You know what's sometimes said in letters about marriages like this ... some will get better through counseling, while others it does no good because one of the spouses is convinced they're right and you won't change them.
Comment: #93
Posted by: Bobaloo
Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:02 PM
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@Bobaloo, you're trying, as a straight man, to put yourself in the mind of a gay man -- and you're failing.
You're really really REALLY *wildly* underestimating the mental stress of years of life in the closet. And being dismissive of the experience.
I'm WAY more experienced in what the LW's ex-husband went through than you are, Bobaloo, from direct personal experience as well as endless discussions of the experiences of all of my gay male friends throughout the last 2 decades.
Your assumptions, as expressed in the last paragraph of #93, are off the mark because there's a part of the ex-husband's experience -- a big, giant, MAJOR part of his experience -- that you simply have no context to understand, and that's apparent in how you are framing your response to the LW's ex.
He's GAY, Bobaloo. Going to marriage counseling to save a marriage with a *woman* would be the most POINTLESS EXERCISE EVER. He wasn't being a jerk by refusing to go, he was probably doing the first honest and kind thing he'd done for this woman in a LONG time.
Comment: #94
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:28 PM
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Re: Bobaloo
"Funny thing is, until recently, I've only heard of the word "partner" being used in the context of what I describe in #91 and not for relationships. Maybe I have been living under a rock."
Sorry, Bobaloo, but on that one, yeah, I think you have! I personally have heard "partner" used in a romantic context for the past 30 years at least. For, about and by both hetero and gay couples, every time there is no official wedding involved. It has become one of the synonyms for common-law spouse, and widely used because the term is a lot more neutral than alternatives. There are business partners, and then there are life partners.
You know, Bobaloo, even people who were born in a given language can't possibly know everything about it. The last time that happened to me, I merely gave thanks for the information, "I'll go to bed a little less ignorant tonight", instead is fighting for the right to be wrong.
Bobaloo, I like you, but this is often the problem with you: you will say something that is completely-base (whether it be wild speculation of misinformation), other posters call you out on it and, most of the time, instead of admitting you jumped sky high, you just dig your feet in.
Comment: #95
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:50 AM
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Re: Bobaloo
And Mike is right: regardless of anything else he might be a schmuck to his wife about, and regardless of what makes him such a mean, angry bastard to any partner he's with, going to marriage counselling when you know your marriage is a lie and a sham is totally pointless. The therapist couldn,t have fixed the fact that he's gay and married to the wrong gender.
He would need to get himself into therapy to find out why he's so abusive and possibly to deprogram himself, but not to save a marriage to a woman that never should have occured in the first place.
Comment: #96
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:58 AM
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