Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1: Wow - that's some best friend. I have a feeling that Even doesn't consider you to be his best friend. Wake up and smell the coffee.

LW2: I'd have been more on your side if you hadn't made that ridiculous remark about "enabling" your brother by "welcoming" him into your life. Does that mean you don't think you should have to be civil? If you aren't buying him alcohol you aren't enabling him, so forget that nonsense.

Disapprove of his drinking all you want. If he gets drunk in front of you, pick up your daughter and leave, but look to your own behavior first. I don't think it's kind or helpful of you to throw your relationship with his kids in his face. If you are a black sheep it's because you are behaving badly.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I have something very like this in my own family. When you go stomping around about your brother's really bad behavior, it feels unfair when everyone lines up to support the drunk. But that's how it's going to be. Accept it if you want to have a family.

LW1 -
"Is there a tactful way to address this and salvage the friendship? "
No. There are things that ought to be so self-evident, that if you need to address them, what's the point? This is one of them.

Evan was certainly not obligated to spend every minute with you as if you two were joined at the hip, but he could have been a little more cordial on the rare times he did. And leaving without even an a la proxima or a thank you was inexcusable. Evidently, Evan was only there for the advantage you provided and not for the pleasure of your company.

Was Evan always that rude and indifferent? You say you and him go back a long way and that you want to preserve the friendship, but apparently what there is left to preserve has become quite one-sided. There are times when long-standing friendships simply go the way of the dodo. Because your wife does not have the long history with these people that you do, she is more pragmatic about cutting off dead wood.

You may want to gloss this over because you want to preserve the frienship indeed, but I'm not sure you can even revive something that seems to have flatlined already. It may well be that all that can be preserved is the memory of what used to be. Personally, if I were you, I would consider the hotel points the price you paid to find out your relationship with Evan has reached its best before date, and move on. You have better things to do IMHO than to waste your time with someone who no longer cares about spending time with you.

P.S.: Yeah, I know, it hurts. If in every relationship that comes to an end, both protagonists stopped caring at the same time, much suffering in the world would cease to happen.

LW2 -
I don't know how merely having your brother in your life enables him in any way. "Enabling" means "facilitating". How is you just tolerating him in your vicinity doing that? People who do not have the answer to that question might feel that you are punishing your brother for not complying to your edicts to shape up.

At any rate, do go to Al-Anon. These are people who know what you're going through.They can help you develop coping mechanisms and also help you sort out some perhaps confused ideas.

As much as your brother needs help, he will not get it until he himself decides that he needs it. Whatever means of pressure you decide to apply is likely to be counterproductive. You are neither responsible nor in control of his life - another one of the things Alanon will (hopefully) make you understand.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the second letter on 14 February 2013 (Sticky Situation in Florida).

LW1--I'm not sure what you expected to happen on this theme park vacation. Did you expect that 'Evan' and his entire family would hang all over you, swooning at your generosity and espousing their gratitude with endless accolades and praise? If they would have done that, you would be writing in about how rude your friend and his family were because they were clinging to your family like a piece of chewed gum and irritating you the entire time with their endless sucking up. Please! Personally, when I'm invited on a trip that I pay for, regardless of whether or not I received a discount, I expect to have fun. In my particular case, that means making my own plans and doing what I want. If you were truly being a friend, then your donation of hotel points or whatever should have been given without any strings attached and without any expectation of reciprocation of any kind. That's in fact what happened. Tell your wife to butt out, then call Evan and explain that it's a shame that your two families weren't able to spend more quality time while on vacation as you'd hoped. If he acts aloof, reflect back on your long history together and consider that maybe all these years yours was a one-sided friendship wherein you do all the work and Evan reaps all the benefits.

LW2--You're not wrong to walk away in a world where it's okay for you to make your brother's alcoholism all about you. Explain to me how welcoming your brother into your home is enabling him to be an alcoholic. Do you immediately shove a drink in his hand or do you and your husband blatantly guzzle beer in front of him? I think you're using your brother's alcoholism as a convenient excuse to wash your hands of him because you're a tad jealous that all the attention is on him and his broken life rather than on you and your perfect life and perfect daughter. That's fine, but if you're going to act like a spiteful, self-absorbed little witch, the least you could do is cop to it.

LW3--"Not everyone has the same definition of comfortable." Exactly! And that's why people need to accommodate themselves! Bring a sweater, carry a fan, take a walk outside. The onus isn't on ones host or the proprietor of shops and restaurants to cater to the specific temperature requirements of a single individual.

Louise and Lise, I disagree about LW2. The key is her comment, "I can't deal with watching him kill himself." In theory, it's _possible_ that he's never drunk in their presence and never tries to rationalize his accident or other bad behavior in front of her and her daughter, but in reality, addicts just don't do that, especially when the rest of the family supports them. Clearly they expect her to stay silent no matter what he does or says. The details change, but the dynamic is always the same. Having him in her life as a brother means far more than just tolerating his presence and being civil, and pretending nothing's wrong would be hypocritical. She's wise to protect herself and her daughter.

LW1 - While the LW considers Evan to be his "best friend", it's obvious that Evan doesn't share that take on the relationship. Since he and the LW live in different states, Evan has apparently made other friends and is more comfortable associating with them. While his behavior was rude and unappreciative to say the least, I can see no reason for trying to revive a friendship that no longer exists in Evan's view. It's time to accept the reality that the closeness the LW and Evan may have once had is over, and to move on. Unfortunately, Evan has already done so, and while I'm sure it's hurtful to accept that, it seems to be the case. Personally, I wouldn't want to continue a "friendship" with someone who acted the way Evan did.
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LW2 - The LW definitely needs to contact Al-Anon for some guidance on how to deal with this situation. She is NOT enabling him by associating with him at family functions unless she is offering him alcohol, making it easy or possible for him to get it, or accepting or excusing his behavior when he's drinking. If he is drunk in the LW's presence, she has every right to walk away and take her daughter with her, but cutting him out of her life is not the answer and it certainly won't help him stop drinking. The LW is not helping the situation with her family by telling her brother she doesn't want him in her life any more, and is being a bit of a drama queen. She has made herself the "black sheep" of her family by her own actions. She should listen to what the people at Al-Anon have to say, and learn from them how to best handle dealing with an alcoholic family member.

LW1: The Annies say "the friendship you are trying to preserve is the one between you and Evan", but I think the friendship you are trying to preserve is all in your head. It's inconceivable that someone who is truly a friend would go on a planned "group vacation" and then completely ignore you and your family so completely. At best, you are now acquaintances who have a past history of friendship, and I think it's time you started to understand that. You'll be less disappointed in the future.

LW1 - You may think you and Evan are best friends but he obviously thinks different. Of course you shouldn't have expectetd to be joined at the hip with him and his family but they ignored you all together and then invited other friends to be in your shared rooms. And then they left without even saying goodbye. I'd be curious to know just how friendly you and Even were before this. I find it odd that he would be be best buds with you and suddenly act like that.

I, peronsally, don't understand why you would want to salvage this friendship but it you do, so be it. Continue to call or email with him or whatever it is you do. But don't plan any more vacations with him, that's for sure.

LW2 - If you feel you need to walk away, then do it. But you are not enabling him just by being civil to him. Enabling him would mean that you give him alcohol or money and you go along with any lies he tells, ie, "My brother was NOT drunk at that wedding," when you know that he was. But if you feel that you can't watch him kill himself, then that's your choice. As for your parents and sister still inviting him...that's their choice.

LW1: I dont' think the writer was saying Evan's family needed to be wtih them 24/7. But if they didn't even pay attention to them, it was beyond rude - I don't understand why someone would do that. There must be more to this story than is being revealed. When we go on vacation with friends, we don't spend the whole time together, but we sync up at least once in the morning and evening, to decide when to meet - whether it's just for dinner or lunch, or maybe we all just do one activity together, and separate for the rest of the day. There IS a reason that didn't happen here, and it's pointless to write for advice and not share all the information. If they were distant for no apparent reason, then the writer needs to ask Evan why that happened. How in the world are we to know?

LW1 If you are going to accept gifts from someone it is good manners to at least PRETEND you like them. Evan should have talked to you about meeting up for some activities together. Perhaps the problem was that Evan's wife doesn't like you or your wife, or his kids don't like your kids? Maybe one of the kids made some sort of accusation about you or one of your kids, so the family left without saying goodbye. I would get Evan to talk about this.

LW2 - not sure what you mean by "not welcoming your brother in your life". . Do you mean you don't want to see him again unless he sobers up? What kind of requirements are you putting on your family - not to invite you both over at the same time? to pick between the 2 of you? You can't control what your parents & siblings do, and they have decided not to shun your brother, so your choice is to either attend family events on those terms or stay away. If you truly want to keep your brother out of your life, then stay out of his, be civil to him, don't argue with him about his own children, and don't act superior to him. I understand that it was awful to nearly have your brother die because of his alcoholism, but you can't protect yourself from getting hurt by pretending you don't have a brother. Best to do what others have suggested, find an al-anon meeting or other group of family members of alcoholics and find out how they get through it.

LW2: I think the sister is so mad and sad and upset and feeling a million other emotions over the near death of her brother that she can't think straight. She's pushing down all those feelings and is trying to be “strong” by walking away. She's justifying it by saying she's enabling him otherwise. All that really means is his mere presence is upsetting to her and she'll feel better if she just doesn't have to deal with him anymore. If only it was that easy, sister. I hope she contacts Al-Anon and gets the help she needs in order to deal with her brother.

Sarah stravinska (#11) made some good points. Before you decide that Evan and his family were just being ungrateful and rude, check out the possibility that something happened that hurt them or made them angry.
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Did you perhaps unknowingly say or do something? Since your wife is jumping at the chance to end the friendship, does she perhaps not want them around as much as you did, since Evan is, after all, YOUR best friend? (I know that on many occasions I got stuck with the wives of good friends of my husbands, and would not have minded if they dropped off the face of the earth. Not that they did anything wrong-----just boring, or nothing in common with me.)
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Perhaps your kids got into it and you took their side, when Evan felt they were in the wrong? Did you perhaps spend too much time talking about the nice 'discounts' you got for them? Could be any number of things.
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But if you're satisfied it was none of the above, then maybe the friendship, at least as far as combining your families, has run its course, and they were just plain rude because they didn't want to be with you. In that case, make your own decision about you continuing to see Evan, and let the 'families' thing go. You may never know what happened, doesn't really matter-------the point is, they didn't want to be as close to you as you did to them.
No excuse for their rudeness, of course, but you've learned something------don't put yourself or your family in this situation again. See Evan privately, if you wish, but leave your families out of it.

Actually, allowing an alcoholic in you life is enabling. Most healthy siblings do eventually cut off alcoholics.

Enabling is more than buying drinks. It is covering up for the impacts. It's being civil and associating after a mean drunk has verbally abused you public. It's calling in sick for them when they are hung over. It's walking on eggshells to avoid stupid drunken arguments (like why do my kids like you better?). It's tolerating being treated badly. When a drunk treats you badly ( and they do- that's part of the disease), cutting them off is the right way to give a consequence. Alcoholics do not choose to stop drinking and being self-centered until the have serious, real world consequences.

The LW is absolutely correct in cutting off an alcoholic. It is a consequence. It will prevent the verbal and sometimes physical abuse that alcoholics lay out on family members. Only people who deal with alcoholics realize how very abusive they can be. Most lay people are urging compassion (as you are here) instead of self protection for the siblings. The siblings and children of alcoholics are their most innocent victims.

The LW will find that Al Anon will help her/him. There are several books for siblings out there. The LW should also google alcoholic dysfunctional family systems to understand the roles and why the family is ganging up on him/her and walking on eggshells. These things will help the LW.

I have some experience here. The LW is not the problem. Our assumptions about what enabling is, what should be tolerated is, and our lack of compassion for the victims are the problems. Good luch LW

LW2 ~ As someone who has dealt with multiple family members who are addicts, I feel your pain. I have found, through the years, that their drama is simply not my problem. If they decide to get clean, then we will talk, but until then, I have no desire to be included in the mess.
My children and I rarely attend famiy functions, which always include these people. At the end of the day, I do not want my children knowing these people and getting close to them. When it's a function that I need to attend, I do so, but we do not interact with the addicts. A polite, distant "hello" is all that is necessary. I do not engage in conversations that can turn into arguments.
Keep your head up, and do what's right for you and your family. Al-Anon isn't a bad idea, but it wasn't someplace I was comfortable. There are many different groups, even some through churches, now. Try and find something that will work for you since it's not a topic you can discuss with family. You need some support.

LW2- Addicts can turn one's life upside down and create more chaos and stress than the non-addict can emotionally handle. I know, been there done that. My brother and his wife drink so heavily, that they show up at functions drunk and are just plain mean when they drink. When my mother had a bad car accident and was hospitalized, my brother came to the hospital drunk. It was difficult enough to see my mom bruised and broken, but to deal with a drunk person? While some may not understand how tolerating a drunk is a form of enabling, those who deal with it on a daily basis do. He really could not see that he and his wife were creating any problems and I too felt I was enabling him by continuing the relationship. He would drag everyone in our family into the chaos, including my grown children and his. After late night calls berating me with accusations that never existed, I said enough was enough and separated myself from the situation. I was accused of not caring, of not being forgiving... but it was not about forgiveness or compassion, but rather self-preservation. Little by little, other family members did the same. One day he said I was turning everyone against him, I asked, "Do you seriously believe I and everyone else just woke up one morning and decided to hurt you? We just said, hmmm, let's target so-n-so and make his life miserable??? Quit drinking and maybe then you will see." I walked away. It took a long time, but he finally got it. He missed the family he alienated and made a concerted effort to make changes. While this does not work for everyone, pretending that life is grand with a drunk or drug user IS a form of enabling. You must remove yourself from the dynamics and allow family members to make their own choices. They will either follow, or continue the relationship. You cannot change the drunk or the family. You can only control your own actions. Also, by removing yourself from the equation, you can better understand what you need to do for you and your family. Do not let others guilt you into doing anything else.

Re: Selika
I have quite a bit of experience with alcoholism in my family also, and I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree. One family member cutting herself off from the alcoholic will not be consequential enough for the brother to decide to stop drinking. While I agree that enabling is more than just buying drinks or providing an environment for the alcoholic to drink, simply cutting herself off from him won't help either. There's nothing in the LW's account of her brother's behavior that indicates he's a danger to her or her child (unless she's foolish enough to get into a car with him when he's been drinking), and of course if he is, then she should remove herself and her child immediately, but simply refusing to be in his presence will serve no purpose other than to alienate her other family members. Again, meeting with members of Al-Anon is the best solution at this point.

Re LW#2---
I have to say, sounds like you're more angry than concerned about watching your brother ruin his life.
He's in a bad accident and he nearly dies. Had he died, you would never have been able to see him again. You are sad and upset about the thought of never seeing him because he is dead (assuming here for the sake of argument)------so your solution is to kick him out of your life and never see him again?
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And you really don't get to tell your family how to deal with him. Don't go to THEIR homes, where they have made it plain that your brother is welcome, and fight with him. If you don't want to be around him, don't have him in YOUR home. If they want him in theirs, either go there and deal with it, or stay away. You don't get to tell them how to react to his drinking, and if you want to tell him to stay out of your life, it doesn't extend to HIS having to stay away from other homes where he is welcome because YOU want to be there.
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You are probably absolutely right that he is ruining his life. But you can't stop it, nor can his family, even if you could convince them to all disown him. He has to come to that himself. Please do as other posters are advising, and go to Al-Anon.

Re: LW2, I have some personal experience both with dealing with family members who have substance abuse problems, and with attempting to cut toxic relatives out of your life.

With a blood relation as close as a sibling, it becomes almost impossible to cut one sibling out of your life without it dramatically affecting the relationship with your parents and your other sibling. So, while I understand and appreciate the impulse, I don't think it will have the effect you hope it has. It won't "dis-enable" your brother; in fact, it may "extra-enable" him because your parents and sister will see him as "extra vulnerable" because of (what they see as) your unfair treatment of him.

I'd recommend walking some of your language back a bit, and not sticking to your guns on him getting out of your life; rather, let your parents and sister know that you are incredibly worried about his behavior and his condition, and that you have a great deal of trouble just ignoring all this. And then tell your brother that you will be there for him should he enter into any kind of rehabilitation program, but until that time you are just so upset by his behavior that you need to be a little more distant, but that you won't outright ostracize him.

And then see him at family gatherings, but no "extra" events. And continue to learn about Al-Anon and other similar programs (Al-Anon is helpful but it isn't for everyone; if you find you don't respond to Al-Anon's philosophy, don't give up but keep looking).

It's only when the rest of your family is on the same page that any kind of abrupt change in the status quo or intervention can be successful; right now it sounds like your family is anything BUT on the same page in how to deal with your brother's problem, and your insistence on "doing your own thing" about this is only adding to the drama, not lessening it.

It's a balancing act: you need to do what is healthy for you, but you also need to recognize that you will continue to be a black sheep (with LESS influence on your brother's recovery!) if you continue along this path you are on. Try to find a middle ground, where everyone understands your concerns but you can still engage in limited contact with your brother at holidays and birthdays.

Re: LW3, that's a good point... if you've moved somewhere and after a few years you just cannot get used to the ambient environment the way others have, perhaps you need to re-consider where you live. I know I prefer to use the A/C as little as possible in the summer, and set the thermostat at 68 in the winter as well.

LW1 - To paraphrase an old cliche about Evan, "He's just not that into you."

Re: Chris #5
"If they would have done that, you would be writing in about how rude your friend and his family were because they were clinging to your family like a piece of chewed gum and irritating you the entire time with their endless sucking up."
As I myself expressed in my post, there is happy middle in between the two extremes you are depicting. And yes, I too would expect to have fun at a trip I'm paying for myself - regardless of discounts.

The LW didn't expect any "reciprocation" and he said so. But he DID expect to have *some* fun together with his friend, which is a reasonable expectation considering it had been discussed and it looked like it was part of the plan for both. It wasn't, and Evan evidently only wanted to take advantage of the discount, while his idea of fun did not include the LW. That is the problem here, not that Evan didn't cling to the LW like a barnacle or turn wet with gratitude. The LW doesn't at all sound like he was demanding that much.

@Baldrz #6
"In theory, it's _possible_ that he's never drunk in their presence and never tries to rationalize his accident or other bad behavior in front of her and her daughter, but in reality, addicts just don't do that,"
Yeah, except that in the absence of specific details indeed, I for one will not pull a Bobaloo (;-D) and start inventing a whole string of them.

I find it hard to believe that, for the sake of the family, she canNOT restrict herself to tolerating his presence and being civil. Unless he's done something unacceptable to her and/or her children, her ostracizing behaviour comes across as controlling and punitive. I understand her grief about watching helplessly while he's killing himself slowly (trust me, I do), but going nuclear over the situation is not going to fix it. That has to come from him. As Alanon will tell her.

@Selika #15
"Enabling is more than buying drinks. It is covering up for the impacts. It's being civil and associating after a mean drunk has verbally abused you public. It's calling in sick for them when they are hung over. It's walking on eggshells to avoid stupid drunken arguments (like why do my kids like you better?). It's tolerating being treated badly."
And I have seen alcoholics who were perfectly happy drunks and did not abuse anyone in any way. Unless we have any indication that the LW's situation involves more than tolerating his presence or being merely civil, I fail to see how she is enabling him, and her intransigeance may be motivated by other things besides being exasperated at the antics of a mean drunk.

"The LW is absolutely correct in cutting off an alcoholic. It is a consequence. "
Yes, it is. But it ought to be the consequence of toxic, abusive, dangerous or otherwise unacceptable behaviour, not just of being alcoholic in itself. Until his habit becomes a problem for others, it is nobody's business how much a given individual imbibes and whether or not he's addicted to the juice. And until an alcoholic crosses the line of unacceptability, what he needs is support, not ostracism.

Frankly, the best way to avoid stupid drunken arguments is to simply walk away - and it doesn't have to be forever.

@jajjaaj #17
"While some may not understand how tolerating a drunk is a form of enabling, those who deal with it on a daily basis do."
I hear what you say, but not all drunks behave like that and we have no idea whether the LW's does. I have known alcoholics who would have loved being stone drunk 24/7, but who were perfectly jolly good fellows (if a lot drunk), and happy to surrender the car keys. Yes, they were killing themselves slowly as surely as the mean drunks, but unless they make their drinking someone else's problem with their behaviour, it's nobody's business.

LW1 -- like a lot of other folks here, I'm not sure why you want to preserve this friendship, but apparently you do. Here's what I'm wondering:

1) How important is it to you that the friendship between you and Evan extend to your wives and children?
2) Did you know he was planning on bringing other friends and relatives (which, by the way, is rude if he did not tell you, particularly as it's possible the resort/vacation club in question may well have some strict rules about that kind of thing)? Were these people you knew previously?
3) When you say "we have always gotten along well" -- I'm assuming you mean the two families, not just you and Evan. Under what sort of circumstances have you all gotten together previously? In previous times, were you just together for a few hours?
4) Have you and Ethan communicated at all since the vacation? And if not, how long has it been since you talked?

The Annies blithefully assume that the only friendship you wish to preserve is between you and Evan. I'm betting that's not the case, or your wife probably wouldn't care so much one way or the other. I'm betting you still nurture the dream of family get togethers and vacations in the future. If you do, then several things have to happen:

1) Either your wife needs to be willing to just forget about what happened (which is asking a lot), or you need to ask Evan what happened and then see if there's any chance of an apology/explanation forthcoming that would appease your wife.
2) The next time you try to get the families all together, there needs to be a clear discussion of how much time is going to be spent together, who all is going to be a part of it, etc., so that everyone goes into the vacation with the same expectations/understanding.

But honestly, I think that ship has sailed, LW. If you want to remain friends with Evan, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't be trying to get the families together again.

Loving Sister -- I agree that this is about what you can live with, and that contacting Al Anon is a good idea. But consider that what you can live with will most likely change over time. Right now, you need these black & white, hard and fast boundaries (no contact whatsoever). It's possible that in the future, emailing, phone calls, brief visits, etc. will be ok. A lot of that depends on people you have no control over though (your brother and your family). If his behavior doesn't improve, and/or if your family continues to deny/enable, then you'll have a lot less opportunity, or reason, to adjust your boundaries.

Thank you Selika and others that understand what I meant. I was in a terrible accident when I was three... My brother was on the lawn mower. He has more than once blamed me (publicly) for being the reason he is an alcoholic. That's where my give a damn broke. I'm not the reason he drinks. It's another excuse. Before me being the reason he's an alcoholic, it was my mom, before that it was my dad, before that it was my sister and before my sister, it was my grandma.

Do not tell me I'm making this about me. I want my brother to go to AA and get better. Be the great father that I know he can be. I've preached, I've offered to go to counseling with him, go to AA meetings with him but he will not do it. My parents have bought alcohol for him, even after his accident. You have to walk on eggshells around him or he flips out. He's punched my husband in the face because he was drunk and thought my husband said something bad to him... Which he did not!

I have learned through contacting AA on my own that if you accept an alcoholic and their behavior, you might as well be handing them a beer. You're basically saying they are fine and their behavior is acceptable. It is not!

To those that say I'm making this about me -- what else you think I should do because I'm out of ideas!

LW2 -- If the only time your brother has exhibited toxic behavior was the argument with you at your parents' house about his kids, then it MIGHT be a bit early to be cutting your brother out of your life. If, on the other hand, this is just one of a string of fights that he picks with you and/or other members of the family (and, presumably these are only happening when he's drunk?), then that is a pattern of toxic behavior, and in that case, I think you are potentially justified in not wanting him in your life at all. Sure, you can go to family events and hope that he doesn't repeat the behavior, and then when/if he does, you can leave -- but how many times do you want to expose your daughter to that? So, I think a lot of this depends on to what degree that fight was a new, one-time thing that isn't likely to be repeated again, or whether it's part of an emerging pattern that is going to continue (or if it's a pattern that's been going on for a while, and you just didn't mention other examples). If this is the first time he's pulled something like this, then I think you give it a chance -- you attend family functions, you are civil, etc., you just don't spend any more time with him than necessary, and you hold off on cutting him out unless or until it's clear that he's just going to keep on doing this kind of thing. If this is just one in a string of similar incidents, then cut him off as planned.

And yes, contact Alanon or some other support group/resource for relatives of alcoholics. They likely will be able to help you sort through your feelings, what is best for you and your daughter, what is best for your brother, how to deal with your other family members, etc.

I also forgot to mention, my brother is a woman beater. He has also beat his children. Hence why they want nothing to do with him!

Lisa, he is always drunk. He is never sober. Every conversation turns into a fight or an argument. (He's right and we're always wrong!) I do attend family functions and I am civil but if he starts getting out of hand, I grab up my daughter and leave. My brother is 34 year's old and has been an alcoholic since he was at least 18 year's old. I've dealt with it. I've tried to be middle ground. I've tried talking, listening and giving advice. Nothing I do works but I understand why nothing I do works. He has to want to get better... He doesn't.

At the end of the day, I am a mother. I do not want my daughter to see the things I have seen. I don't want her to see him hit another woman, his children, or someone else. He has tried to hit my daughter while he was drunk all because she accidentally stepped on his toe! She was just learning to walk for Christ's sake!

Re: LW2
Thank you for coming BTL and giving us more information on your brother's alcoholixm and behavior. After reading what you've had to deal with, I definitely have changed my opinion on how you should deal with him, and agree that you should avoid contact with him. Creators is known for editing things out of the original letters, and apparently a lot of your brother's past drinking problems were left out. You have my sympathy for all you have had to endure. Good luck to you and your family.

I miss Nanchan.

LW2 -- See, this is exactly why I wrote my response (which I wrote before I saw your initial post at 26 (even though my post came at 27 after yours, I was typing while you posted that, so I had not seen it) the way I did -- offering up different scenarios that took different possibilities into account. Your letter, as published by the Annies, left a LOT of extremely vital information out -- whether you left it out or the Annies edited it out for some reason, the BTL was left to interpret only what was there -- which didn't include the fact that he's physically and verbally abusive (and has been on multiple occasions). All we knew was that he once got into an argument with you. Now we know that this isn't a matter of a one-time verbal argument -- this is part of an ongoing pattern of toxicity that includes both physical and verbal abuse.

So, I stand by what I said -- if this is part of a pattern of toxicity, you are perfectly right to cut him out of your life. And by the way, I would say that even if he never got physically abusive -- verbal/emotional abuse is still toxic and is an equally good reason to cut someone out of your life.

Re: LW2
*I* have said that, in the absence of details, I would not make up scenarios, and "Unless we have any indication that the LW's situation involves more than tolerating his presence or being merely civil"... but NOW we do. Thank you for the update.

Now that we have the salient details, I do agree that cutting him off is the best solution, for your protection, that of your husband and you daughter. And yes, the behaviour you describe from your parents definitely qualifies as enabling.

Still do go to Al-Anon, for them to keep impressing on you that, just as you have nothing to do with his illness, you also have nothing to do with his healing.

And, unless you want to end up with no family on top of no brother, I would advise you not to say anything out loud about cutting him off, since it is apparent that some in your family feel sorry enough for him to be part of his problem. Just don't invite him to your home, make yourself scarce in the family functions you can avoid and stay away from him in the ones you can't.

And if he physically abuses his children, call CPS. Someone has to protect these kids, and it looks like there's only you. If he punches you or your husband again, call the cops and press charges for assault.

And btw, did you include all these details in your letter to the Annies? Because I can assure that your position didn't look all that good without them, and I'm wondering if it's yet another case of letter-mangling on their part.

Welcome BTL, btw, and thank you so much for the clarifications! The situation is lot more understandable now.

Re: Kitty Thank you. I may have forgotten to mention it, also. If so, my apologies.

Re: LW2 #29
Couldn't agree with you more. Stay away as much as you can, there is nothing more you can do. And, if he ever lifts half a finger against your daughter again, call the cops and press charges.

Re: Lisa Sorry if my post came across vile. I didn't mean to. If it did, I apologize. :) I totally got what you meant, though. You're correct on how my letter to the Annies sounded. Thank you for understanding my later posts.

This was some year's ago when he abused his kids. I didn't know until year's later. His ex wife and ex-gf have full custody of their children with him. I've told my husband (and I have informed my brother) that if another situation like that happens, I will call the cops and charges will be pressed. He is on probation and is pushing his limits on going to the pin for at least 7 years. Even if it means my family hates me for the rest of my life. That's fine.

LW2, I am glad that you read my comments. You are absolutely right. I have been where you are. He is abusive be ause the disease makes drunks self centered and violent. The people disputing that really have no idea what they are talking about. Find a therapist with certification in substance abuse and family systems therapy. Families excuse and enable ( as Some are doing on this board) because of toxic systems. You are now in the scapegoat role (google scapegoat) because you are truth telling and not willing to walk on eggshells. All alcoholics are mean and vicious to close family members. If people don't see it, they are not close. The cliche is that alcoholics do not have relationships, they take hostages. The minute you wrote alcoholic, I understood that you were victimized by abusive behavior. Many siblings are verbally and physically abused by alcoholics. The woman and child beating are unfortunately familiar as well.
Run, don't walk away. Read books on sibling of toxic sibs. Read Lundy Bancroft's "I Don't Know why He Does That (paraphrasing the title.) you will find you brother I. There, and it will make sense to you. For your own sake, cut him off. It brought peace to me a d my children's lives to cut off my sibling. My mother is still mad, but extended family support it. He will always blame you, he will never accept blame hi. Self, he will always manipulate, he will always passive aggressively provoke, he will always lie about you to others. It is what alcoholics do. Anyone who tells you otherwise is in denial or just has no uknowlefge of this. Until alcoholics get extensive help, they are extremely narcissistic, manipulative, and vicious. It is the nature of the disease.
Get a counselor for yourself. Siblings of alcoholics are frequently gaslighted by enabling family members and clueless people in the community. You are right to distance from the family until you know that they will place safety before enabling,
We all get here if we are sane. Many siblings of abusive alcoholics walk before you. God bless you. I wish you peace.

LW2- your instincts about how to handle your brother are very good. The follow up information that you provided makes me sure of it. Since your family doesn't get it, going to Al-anon meetings would give you a support group to talk it out with, and you can feel like someone really gets it. You would have moral support there. Your family may never get it, and he may drink himself to death. Well, if he does, you still will not regret not hanging out with him and watching his demise. And I know you are right to keep your daughter away from him, he is a disaster. His alcoholism has already fractured your family, and they may judge you, and criticise you. That isn't fair, but they do not understand alcoholism, and possibly, they never will. You have to do what's right for you, and your child. Good luck. I wish peace and serenity for you, it's a tough journey.
LW1-Inviting people to your vacation home can be tricky. You have one expectation, they have another. I have invited guests, thinking we would spend time together, and they did pretty much what your friend did, although they treated us to dinner out and said thank you. So I scaled back my expectations, and now know that a discussion before the trip is in order, to align expectations. And if a trip doesn't work out, don't invite them again.

Re: LW2
I wouldn't say it came across as vile, but rather that you were trying to control your brother - because there was no information about how unacceptable his behaviour was, or even if it was unacceptable at all. All is perfectly clear now.

@Selika #37
"He is abusive because the disease makes drunks self centered and violent. The people disputing that really have no idea what they are talking about."
Selika, alcohol does not put anger, hostility and violence into people. It only makes it come out. If it hadn't been booze, it would have been something else.

If booze was responsible for making people angry, hostile and violent, then everybody would be the minute they're sloshed. And yet, there are plenty of happy drunks, whether they be alcoholics or not. I'm not disputing that alcoholism does make some people MORE angry, hostile, violent and abusive, but the flaws were there to start with. It doesn't do that to everybody.

Your personal experience about alcoholics being abusive and violent happens to match that of LW2. It does't match that of everybody, since not all drunks are like that. I have seen some who were, and some who were not.

Please try to remember that there are people who exist who are different than the ones you've seen so far, and try to avoid telling people who try to explain that to you that they "really have no idea what they're talking about".

Lise, there is plenty of research that backs up what I said. You might want to read even a small amount of it before trying to condescend. Google the definition of "dry drunk", without alcohol, alcoholics are still mean, passive aggressive, and selfish. It is the nature of the disease. Researchers, therapists, and AA confirm that.

The LW's story is not just my story. It is so common that it is heartbreaking. People like you, who minimize and deny, do not help. Educate yourself about how manipulative drunks can be. They often pick one sibling out for abuse.

You really do not understand.

LW@ does need to go to Al-Anon, but to help HER recover from the effects of her brother's alcoholism on her, NOT to help her understand her brother.
I am sorry, but, unless y'all have been subjected to living with or dealing with an alcoholic closely entertwined in your lives, you have NO idea how horrible even the simplest things can become. Even something as innocuous as a phone call can quickly turn into a source of stress and hurtfulness.
Some of the comments above tell me that the posters have no real understanding nor idea about how alcoholism works. One does not simply have to give the person alcohol or facilitate their drinking to enable the alcoholism. No, there is the staying silent about the drinking. There is the years of doing nothing to protest the behavior, even as it destroyed all trust and sympathy and damaged relationships the person had with their families, friends, ect. There is the knowledge that the person who is the alcoholic frequently drinks and drives, but, no one does or says anything because they are not "directly involved". There is the prevasive seed of fear that grows into a strangling vine, slowly choking the life out of everyone and everything the alcoholic person comes into frequent contact with. The alcoholic becomes a malignant cancer, one that consumes all in its path with slow, excrutiating agony.
No, unless you have LIVED through dealing with an alcoholic, you have NO idea. That the letter writer was pushed to become so dramatic about her brother means that she has been subjected to YEARS of having to deal with him and it has become too much because some part of her recognizes he has become quite the vampiric fiend from hell, sucking the life and energy out of all around him, ESPECIALLY the kids, so she's had enough.
And yes, I DO have an idea, as my husband sprialed down into 8 years of severe alcoholism before I'd had enough. It took a call to 911 and a night in jail for him to get help. And oh, my lord, the backlash from his family over the 911 call and the backlash in why didn't I just let him sleep it off and he'd be fine the next day?
No, there was no "fine the next day". There was only a few hours of respite before he awoke to repeat his patterns and continue putting me and our household through hell.
The alcoholic brother continues his behavior because no one wants to rock the boat and deal with the problem. It is uncomfortable, so they leave it alone, thus continuing to enable his drinking behavior. And YES, it is enabling his behavior to simply be civil to him and go to family gatherings where he will be present. BECAUSE it sends a message that while you yourself do not approve, you will comply with the mandate that he gets to do as he will without disagreement, thereby perpetuating his ability to continue to be destructive to not only himself but to everyone and everything around him.
What people do not realize is that the substance abuser is not the only addict involved. The people who have to deal with the alcoholic are addicts themselves. They are addicted to the hope that somewhere in that alcoholic/drug addict/substance abuser, the person they once loved and knew is still in there. But, that hope they are addicted to is a false hope, one that keeps them paralyzed with inaction and denial and blindness to the truth about the addiction the person suffers from. The person they once knew and loved is GONE. Granted, the person can make a recovery and learn to cope and manage with their addiction, but they will NEVER again be who they were BEFORE they became addicted.
I sincerely hope that the clueless among you never have the occasion to learn intimately how mistaken you are in your beliefs about how alcoholism and addiction works, for it has been the most heart-breaking, lonely, stressful, mind breaking and batshit insane experience I've ever been through. I would not wish it on my worst enemy.
And I hope the LW2 goes to Al-Anon, for herself.
ME

Selika , I do agree with Lisa on the violence part. He's violent drunk or sober (when he *was* sober years ago) but I do know people who are happy go lucky sober or after having a few drinks. I spoke with my cousin about it before I cut him off and she get's it and agrees with me. I know it's hard to say "enough is enough" and walk away (it hurts something terrible) but sometimes I wonder if everyone did it too, maybe then he'd realize. Maybe not. Wishful thinking perhaps. Anyway, I will try to find that book. Thank you!

Lisa, I see how it came across. :-)

Re: Mdelwell "And YES, it is enabling his behavior to simply be civil to him and go to family gatherings where he will be present. BECAUSE it sends a message that while you yourself do not approve, you will comply with the mandate that he gets to do as he will without disagreement, thereby perpetuating his ability to continue to be destructive to not only himself but to everyone and everything around him."

I never really thought about it like that but you're right. I love your response and I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that. Your description of dealing with an alcoholic is spot on!

The one thing all alcoholics have in common is their inability to handle alcohol. Many of them crave a drink, and some simply attempt to drink "normally", but once they have the first one they can't stop. I agree with Mdelwell that living with or being in a close relationship with an alcoholic is hell, but it's not always because the alcoholic is violent or abusive. "Happy drunks" are just as difficult to deal with as angry ones in their own way, but everyone's personality is different, just as people who are NOT alcoholics have different personalities. It's obvious that many of the comments BTL were written by people who have had similar experiences as LW2, but to lump all alcoholics together as having identical personalities and reactions to alcohol is incorrect, and unfair.
.
It is NOT correct as Selika says that "all alcoholics are mean", and to say that someone who doesn't agree with your point of view or experience doesn't know what they're talking about is just wrong. Many recovering alcoholics, especially those who have been sober for many years, are better people than they were before, and do not exhibit the same personality traits that they did while drinking. The definition of a "dry drunk" is someone who although they have stopped drinking has not changed the attitude and habits that they had while drinking. There is a saying in AA that if you keep doing the things you've always done, then you get the results you've always gotten. That's why AA helps people to change their attitude and the way they look at the world around them.
.
I'm sorry for LW2, Selika, and Mdelwell for the experiences they have had to endure, but not everyone is the same, alcoholic or non-alcoholic.

Re: Selika
You are the one telling people they "really have no idea what they're talking about", you are the one telling me that I'm minimizing and denying, that I need to "educate myself" (in other words, I'm ignorant), and then you tell ME to stop condescending? You're projecting, I think.

I'm not minimizing anything. I have seen people who were total alcoholics, as in, drunk most of the time and refusing to stop. But if this same person is a happy-go-lucky drunk and always in a good mood, then I'm in denial or "minimising" because I won't call him a violent abuser? This is going to come as a surprise to you, but there are other things in the world besides the ones YOU have seen.

And I'm not talking about dry drunks, I'm talking about people who would remain mean bastards even after their alcoholism has been addressed, because that's what they are, drunk or sober. And no, it's not "the illness" who's making them that way, YOU are the ones who's in denial about that: there ARE people who are vicious and sadistic all by their poor selves, and who don't need any props or accessories to make them into that they are. Blaming alcohol always is just excusing bad behaviour, as in, it's not his fault, it's because "the illness" is making him that way. No, it ain't. His ROTTEN NATURE is what's making him that way.

You are being very irrational and offensive right now. I imagine you're highly traumatised by some violent, abusive drunkard, but please - don't do what THEY do and take it out one someone else.

Re: Kitty
I can imagine that living with a happy drunk is not exactly a picnic, simply because the person is never rational enough to have a real conversation with, you can't trust a word s/he'll say, and you can't even trust them to remember anything they've said or done while under the spell. And they won't be there emotionally, you're stuck alone raising the kids and taking care of the house, and perhaps even paying the bills.

The extra trauma, stress and danger of verbal and physical violence, and of psychological torture is removed, but it'll be even harder to convince the happy drunk that s/he needs help, because then you're confronted with the "Hey - I'm not doing anyone any harm" argument.

On the topic of alcoholism, aggressive behavior is a major side effect of alcohol intoxication regardless of one's personality.

@LW2 -- I did feel like you were (understandably) angry/offended by some of the advice given that was based solely on the way the letter was published and just wanted to point out that you really can't blame people for interpreting the letter (as published) the way they did, given the important information that was left out. I seriously doubt anyone would have said "oh, just be civil and get over yourself" if you had mentioned that he was always picking fights, had actually abused his children and attempted to hit your daughter -- but here at the BTL, you never know! ;) In any case, I really didn't mean to "take you to task" for that, just wanted to point out that it's impossible for people to give you good advice when some key information has been left out. So, my apologies to YOU if my follow-post sounded more "shame on you" than " wow, that really sucks, and you are totally right to be cutting him out!"

@SwimChick, Kitty, Lise, Selika, et al -- As regular posters may recall, every woman on my mother's side of the family (with the exception of my mother and me) are alcoholics. The one I had the most frequent contact with (and it was very frequent -- she lived nearby and was invited to all family events) was my grandmother. My grandmother was a "happy drunk." I never heard her say a mean word to anyone -- neither drunk nor sober (on the rare occasions I saw her sober before she got into treatment). I also never heard of her nor saw her raise a hand to a living soul. She was not abusive in any way. While my mother's childhood still suffered as a result of her mother's alcoholism (she was afraid to bring friends home, was afraid she'd be obviously drunk at things like graduation, etc., had to help her eat because she'd be to drunk to get the food to her mouth), my mother never felt as though she'd been "abused" or that her mother was "toxic." Now, I want to make it clear, all that stuff I put in the parentheses definitely sucked, and some absolutely would put that in the category of being toxic or even abusive. But it's definitely not so clear-cut a case as LW2's brother, who has shown a pattern of attacking people both verbally and physically. So, blanket statements like "aggressive behavior is a major side effect of alcohol intoxication regardless of one's personality" and "all alcoholics are mean" really are NOT fair or accurate. I believe that aggressive behavior OFTEN is a side effect of alcohol intoxication (and sometimes regardless of a person's personality), and I believe that SOME alcoholics are mean. But I can assure you this was NOT the case with my grandmother. I am not my grandmother's biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination -- I think she was a crappy mother and was pretty useless as a grandmother -- but she was not mean or aggressive. When she died earlier this year, I didn't grieve for her -- but I did grieve for my mother who, despite everything, loved her mother and was sad when she died.
I suppose you could say I was "lucky" that my grandmother was just "kind of crappy" as opposed to the kind of full-on, toxic horror that LW2, Selika and others here have had to endure. But just as my experience in no way negates theirs, neither do theirs negate mine. Alcoholism, personality disorders and family dynamics are extremely complicated things. There is no simple A+B=C equation here that fits every circumstance.

Re: Lisa #48
I'm in total agreement with what you said in your post - I was one of the ones who said that NOT all alcoholics are mean and that there isn't any one size fits all dymanic, NOT one of the posters who said that all alcoholics are mean and aggressive.

Re: Lisa
"I believe that aggressive behavior OFTEN is a side effect of alcohol intoxication"
And I believe that alcohol merely removes inhibitions, uncovering what's just under the surface, simmering like magma and ready to pull a Pinatubo. Otherwise, happy drunks wouldn't exist, everybody would become mean, aggressive and abusive once intoxicated. And with the ones who are mean, aggressive and abusive, there are degrees, ranging from mildly snarky to murderous. Seen the former, the latter only in the news.

As to WHY people are like that... well, you need a doctor's degree in psychiatry to know all of that. And even then.

"But just as my experience in no way negates theirs, neither do theirs negate mine"
Well, this is it. Although I do have first-hand experience with extremely destructive parents, alcoholism was not part of the equation. I was not raised in an alcoholic's home. But I have known some happy drunks personally, and others who were not so happy, the ex LOML being in the latter category. Not murderous, not physically abusive, but foul-tempered and mouthed, definitely not nice. Degrees again.

And I'm not an alcoholic, but a happy drunk, oh yes. I just laugh louder.

Re: Kitty #49
It is Selika who said that. Evidently, all the alcoholics she has known are mean and vicious, and she extrapolates.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I know it was Selika who made that comment, but when Lisa posted her comment #48, it was addressed to her, to SwimChick, to me, and to you. I just wanted to make sure that she knew I didn't agree with the blanket statement.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I know it was Selika who made that comment, but when Lisa posted her comment #48, it was addressed to her, to SwimChick, to me, and to you. I just wanted to make sure that she knew I didn't agree with the blanket statement.

@kitty -- sorry, I was addressing that to people who had engaged in that conversation, on BOTH sides of it, not just the people with whom I was disagreeing. So, yes, I do realize that you and I are actually in agreement on this. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Lisa
No problem -- just making sure :)

Hey everybody, no use getting into a pissing contest over who knows how to categorize alcoholics, who understands, who doesn't- I am willing to bet that everyone who commented about LW2's situation had the unfortunate experience of living with at least 1 drunk. Some of us have had the experience of living with many drunks, so we got to see 'happy drunks', 'angry drunks', and every kind in between. I learned in Alanon that what is true for you is true for you. We let everyone speak, we never interrupted, never corrected, never judged. We achieved peace on mind, and extended it to others. I know everyone doesn't find help at AA or Alanon, but I did. I'm just sayin', your experience is valid, but so is everyone else's, and I hate to see people that are trying to help get verbally beat up just because someone took umbrage with something they said. I guess it's just the scared kid in me that used to hide in the closet to try to avoid a beating when the s*** started to fly.

Re: Patty Bear
With the exception of one poster who was extremely rude to one of the others, I thought the rest of us were merely expressing our opinions and personal experiences, not getting into a pissing contest over who was right and who was wrong.

Re: Patty Bear
"I guess it's just the scared kid in me that used to hide in the closet to try to avoid a beating when the s*** started to fly."
Oh dear, the image this conjures up... There was a two-pieces sofa in the living-room, separated by one of these triangular corner tables, with each sofa piece on either side creating an L. I would crawl behind one of them and go hide under the corner table whenever I heard my father and mother arguing, so I wouldn't be used as amunition.

Re: Selika

Unfortunately, I grew up in the company of a few alcoholics, and I know for a fact that these people were not mean and manipulative when sober. I agree that there are issues with people who drink to excess that may be common across the board, but alcoholism is not a one size fits all problem.

I agree with Lise that your experiences are YOUR experinces, and I have known people close to me who I would consider to be alcoholics who were never anything but kind and giving. It is like Jerry Seinfeld said about alcoholics in one episode of his show, "Alcoholics are either telling you that they love you or they hate you." You read some good books about the subject...good for you. My real life experiences with people very close to me, make me disagree with you.