Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 -
How do you deal with this? Well, for openers, you stop blaming the wrong people. Resenting the people he helps because "they get the side of your husband that belongs to you" is completely irrational. I'm glad he's not having an affair. Evidently, you'd be mad at the woman, not at Dennis.

Your husband is not a pet or a piece of property, and the side of him he now reserves to others is not something that ever "belonged" to you. I'm not trying to side with him here (I'll get to him in a minute), but you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

But you are correct in assessing that your husband was only being nice in order to win your heart. Which means that his niceness doesn't really exist for real, it's just an act he puts on when he's trying to seduce or impress. So it's not a side of him that "belongs to you", in fact it doesn't even belong to him!

Dennis seems to have overlooked the fact that it is not enough to conquer, you also have to keep: now that he has conquered, he thinks he can take you for granted and get real. Yes of course, in social situations, you should "work the room" on your own and not be the wallflower until your husband remembers you exist, but the fact remains.... you are married to this guy, but you are not together.

Nothing is going to change unless Dennis sees that it is in his interest to do so. Insist on counselling. But even if Dennis realised he wants to retain you and decided to put on the seduction act to that effect, you have to be aware that Dennis is basically a very selfish man, who does things for his own profit and not because he genuinely wants people to be happy. Now YOU would have to decide if that is good enough to content you.

If he won't even go with you, there is no hope for even a semblance of change and then you need the counselling for yourself, in order to sort out your feelings and consider how to deal with your options, which pretty much boil down to either put up with it or leave.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the first letter on 10 February 2013.

Lise gave way better advice than the Annie's for LW1; not unusual.

With regard to LW2, I can only go by what I know in my state, and what we see in the news everywhere. Teachers are sexually and physically abusing our children at an all-time high. In NJ, teachers would rather have some of their own fired rather than take a moderate pay cut or step up and pay a little for their health benefits. Granted, some of that might be solved lately, but it seems that the people we trust with children are the last people we should trust with children. (Maybe the Pope should stop kissing babies.)

That guidance counselor in most schools, I bet, is just worrying about getting home, not getting involved in anything serious, and god forbid one of the brats wants a letter of recommendation. I know a lot of teachers, so tell me if I am wrong.

I find myself apologizing but this time just a little. I am sure there are good teachers, but in NJ, PA, we have been disgraced with horrific coaches and so-called role models.

I think many people who think teaching is a great career, are more interested in the short working year, great benefits, and they do not give one crap about being role models and good teachers. Are there any of your blue-haired old ladies out there who care if your young charges learn cursive writing and multiplication tables?

Will be interesting when the education system destroys something as basic as a signature.

LW1 - Lise nailed it on this one. I'll only add that the LW really needs to make a decision on whether she wants to continue to put up with Dennis or whether she'd be better off on her own. He's probably not going to change, and he's the type of person who wants to impress others. He's not helping these other people out of the goodness of his heart. I also agree that the LW doesn't "own" any part of him, and she needs to look to herself to be more self-sufficient. The fact that she says she sits alone at social functions rather than mingling with the other people seems to indicate lack of confidence on her part, and she needs to try to develop some better self esteem. A counselor could help her to figure this out, but I doubt Dennis would go with her or benefit from it if he did.

LW1, for arguments sake, I have to wonder what Dennis would say about your relationship. For example, its possible that your "helplessness" was endearing to him when you were first together, but as time has gone on he's lost respect for you for relying on him for too much and not learning to be more independent.

However, its clear that you are unhappy, and at the very least the two of you should have a serious talk and enter couples counseling to see if there's a way that the two of you can get back to a happier relationship. Remember, though, that Dennis may also have some things that he's unhappy about, and perhaps that's why he's spending so much time paying attention to other people rather than you. Life is messy and rarely black and white, so you both need to have an opportunity to discuss what you are feeling.

Re: LW2, the LW here seems rather bitter and is undoubtedly allowing a few, personal experiences color her view of an entire profession. It's doubtful that even a teacher who moves around different schools frequently is truly going to have a broader view of lots of guidance counselors.

Perhaps some of them are ill-equipped for more serious problems, but they will be able to direct a student in distress to appropriate resources.

And... where else should a student start, especially if they can't go to their parents? It's illogical to complain about the Annies' advice if you aren't able to offer a better suggestion. And you weren't, you just wanted some space to vent against guidance counselors.

LW1 - Lise is right in that you are resenting the wrong person. You shouldn't resent those that he's helping...you should be resenting him and only him.

I understand what you're going through. My ex was similar. He would go out of his way for his mother and sister and almost anyone else. But me? I was just yelled at. I, too, was called selfish whenever I asked him to treat me the way he treated others. I truely believe if I was on fire he wouldn't have thrown water on me but instead yelled at me to stop whining. You think Dennis was nice to you only to win your heart. I think mine was nice to me only to get me to marry him because he was tired of doing his own laundry. I'm not kidding. When I told him I wanted a divorce, one of the first things he said was, "Great...now I have to do my own laundry again. I hate that!"

Please go to counseling, with or without him. Not to sound like a pessimist, though, but don't expect Dennis to change. He can only change if HE wants to change. Be prepared to have a laywer.

Wow. I cannot believe the sexist response to LW1. How many times have we had letters where a man complains that his wife is too busy catering to everyone else's needs to care for his own? And the Annies response is always the same--well, selfish, lazy husband, maybe if you helped out more with the housework.... Now a LW has the shoe on the other foot (who the heck says it's the MAN's job to start dead cars, do household repairs and fix leaky pipes???) what do the Annies say? Nothing about her learning some basic plumbing skills herself or pulling her share of that workload. Instead, they imply something is wrong with Dennis.
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Can you imagine the Annies' response if this sexist letter had been written by a man?
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Dear Annie: I have been married to "Diane" for eight years. Early on, Diane couldn't do enough for me. Now, if my pants need ironing or I ask where dinner is, she yells at me and says to call a maid...I get the local take-out diner to take care of me with a handshake and a bill. I'm told to take care of myself because she's too busy helping others and inflating her ego. I get whatever is leftover. I love Diane, but I'm starting to feel that she only gave me her adoration and helpfulness because she was trying to win my heart. How do I deal with this? — Husband of the Local Cleaning Lady with No Dinner on the Table at Home
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Dear Wife: Some people put on a good show for others, but at home, they let down the facade. We recommend counseling, preferably with Diane, but without her if necessary.
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Yup...

I don't think LW2 is totally wrong, just not totally right. When I was in high school, yes that's what the guidance counselors were there for - help with choosing the right courses, helping you drop a course if necessary, providing guidance on which post-secondary programs to apply to, etc. Not help with personal problems. Not because they didn't care or had zero compassion, but because that wasn't what they were there for. Their days were full with appointments for school-related guidance. They also sometimes had to supervise kids on independent learning plans, on in-school suspension, or in 'study hall' when the regular teacher was absent.

Now I really don't think they would have turned away a kid who came to them in crisis, but that wasn't 'supposed' to be their job. It was never advertised to go ahead and make an appointment with guidance if you were having a personal problem and you weren't really supposed to.

When I was in high school, I went to the guidance counselor because one of my teachers was pressuring me to have sex with him (yes, really!). I was 16 but basically on my own at that time, so my parents weren't an option. The first words out of her mouth were, "Not again!" She fully believed me--because I was just one in a long line of students he had done this to. However, she told me to keep it quiet, talked about how it would ruin his career, that he hadn't really meant anything by it, that he had a wife and two young kids, that he had been going through a stressful time lately, and really, she would go talk to him and tell him to stop and it would all be ok. I told her I wasn't going back to his class (this was 5 months before school ended) and I wanted an A+, the mark I had at the time. I got it.
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That said, it's not the reason I would advise against going to guidance counsellors for personal problems. I know that my case was extreme, and few GCs would do that today. But the problems kids have today are far more extreme and life-threatening than what we had 25 years ago, and parents are far more absent than when many families had a stay-at-home parent. The result is that the average GC has to deal with problems that are too big and complex for them to handle, from an increasing number of kids who don't have a strong support system from their parents or the community. Add to that the increasing pressure to get kids motivated academically to pass and get over their sense of entitlement and indifference, and GCs simply can't do it all. The few I know are having to get couselling and go on stress leave themselves just to handle what's already on their overloaded plates.

LW1: I'll pass, but it appears Lise gave some good advice.

Which brings me to ...

LW2: OK, "Retired Teacher," why do you have this attitude? (And yes, I did read the letter – you're speaking of increasing graduation requirements and other academic priorities.) But why I ask "Why do you have this attitude," is was this your experience? Did the counselors not give a damn about the problems because the ones that were on your staff at the time basically uncaring individuals to start with?

I'm sorry that your experience has apparently made you cynical about guidance counselors ... and it's apparently the same case with Jane, with her experience about the "code of silence" that apparently existed with this teacher. (BTW, Jane, whatever became of this teacher?)

But my question is, if you recommend against going to a guidance counselor ... then – in the absence of a parent or other trusted adult relative – WHO DO YOU RECOMMEND going to to talk about family or emotional issues? I'd like to see specific people you'd recommend, not just general issues. Keeping in mind that a family counselor is NOT always an option.

Thanks!

Hi, Regulars - Just wondering what happened to 'nanchan'? I have not seen her posts in awhile.

Slow boat to china?

Re: Bobaloo #12
"WHO DO YOU RECOMMEND going to to talk about family or emotional issues?"
That is exactly the problem. There usually is no one.
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The obstacles in the way of a teen/preteen getting helpful counseling are:
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1) They, or probably their family, would have to have insurance. Many families don't. And paying for counselors out of one's own pocket can sometimes break you. If the money ain't there, it ain't there.
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2) The insurance would have to include counseling services, perhaps for an indefinite time, which most of them don't. (Three or four sessions help no one.)
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3) Usually even with insurance, nice, hefty co-pays are involved, for long periods of time, which many parents can't afford. (Not always a matter of choosing not to, but maybe a matter of the family either eating or spending the grocery money for counselors.)
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4) And even if #1, #2, and #3 are met, they would have to confide in their parents that they wanted some counseling, since arrangements would have to be made by the owners of the insurance policy-----their parents. And often part of the problem is that kids with problems can't confide in their parents, or at least they feel they can't.
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Schools are stretched tight budget-wise, just like everyone and everything else. No money for counselors except to help students with class choices, etc. Things that could be nipped in the bud with proper counseling made available at the right time just escalate.
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Eventually, in worst-case scenarios, something like the school shootings happen, and THEN the troubled kid might get some help from the system, if he's lucky------but it might come within the prison system or a mental hospital. (And those who don't act out to that extent go untreated.) Very sad, with our rich country, that we can't do the preventative stuff but must wait for it to erupt into major trouble.

RE: Jane

I agree 100% with your comment about the Annies' bigoted response to LW1.

However, don't expect the manhaters on this forum to do anything but ignore your level-headed post. They're too busy foaming at the mouth.

Re: Jane #9
"Dear Annie: I have been married to "Diane" for eight years. Early on, Diane couldn't do enough for me. Now, if my pants need ironing or I ask where dinner is, she yells at me and says to call a maid...I get the local take-out diner to take care of me with a handshake and a bill. I'm told to take care of myself because she's too busy helping others and inflating her ego. I get whatever is leftover. I love Diane, but I'm starting to feel that she only gave me her adoration and helpfulness because she was trying to win my heart. How do I deal with this? — Husband of the Local Cleaning Lady with No Dinner on the Table at Home"

I can't be sure of what the Annies would say, but I know that *I* would tell him that a marriage is supposed to be two people doing for each other. As in, if she's busy taking care of her needs, and you're busy taking care of her needs, then who's taking care of yours? Selfishness is selfishness from any gender.

@jpp: Bahahahahahaha.

@Jane #9
I'm afraid I'd have had the same response to a male LW that I had to this one -- that his wife is only helping others in order to feel important and wasn't concerned about him now that she landed him. I'd have given him the same advice I mentioned for this wife - get some self-esteem and some counseling and decide whether or not he was better off with her or without her because I doubt she'll change.

Re LW#1----
Very common problem, I think. After a few years of being in a relationship, the need to 'impress' dies down. And then the person who feels neglected in favor of all the others the spouse is still trying to impress starts nagging, so the person nagged at just says "Well, now I'm not going to do anything you want me to, because you're nagging."
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Hard to tell here what happened. Maybe the LW was unappreciative, or maybe the husband is just an ass who wants everyone else to like him but doesn't give a fig whether his wife does or not.
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I guess, since she has a solution (calling repairmen) and he doesn't object to that, keep calling them. As far as not spending time with her, and abandoning her at parties, she can either make her own entertainment, or suggest counseling. If neither of those works for her, she has the age-old problem-------do I stay or go?
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I'm curious as to HOW she approaches the problem with him. She does say she's tried to talk about it, although I do know people for whom even the talking, WITHOUT nagging, would do nothing. Don't know if he's one of them, or if she's tried anything BUT nagging. The urge to nag is almost irresistible, but it has the opposite effect of what the nagger wants. On the other hand, sometimes polite asking doesn't work, and obviously, saying nothing doesn't work either.
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Best solution is discussion, and then making a decision based on the results of the discussion. For myself, I like PRIVATE ultimatums----------make a decision to discuss, ask for change, without nagging, then wait for change to happen, with a deadline in your mind only-------and then when your deadline comes, evaluate and see what YOU want to do. It may be to leave, if it's a dealbreaker. Otherwise, continue to call repairmen and make your own social life independent of him. Not the ideal situation, but many marriages last only because someone has made that decision.
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(My late mother-in-law once told me that her husband used to buy her pretty jewelry for birthdays and Christmas, and take her lots of nice places, when they were dating. It went from that to, after they married, yelling at her for being wasteful because she left a room and didn't turn off the light. She asked him why, when he had no problem spending money BEFORE the marriage, he got so tight-fisted afterwards, and he said, in all sincerity, that spending money was something you did for a GIRLFRIEND, not a wife. (He was a major ass, though.)

Re: LW1, I don't necessarily see the Annies response as bigoted, just more that they are unequivocally taking the LW's side and not really playing devil's advocate -- which they often do, frankly. And it's something that I think isn't always the most helpful to the advice-seekers, because often hearing what you DON'T want to hear is exactly what you need to hear, sometimes.

Still, it's possible the LW's description is completely accurate and she hasn't left anything out and she's been near-perfect in her attitude and behavior towards him -- in which case, he HAS been a neglectful jerk and he SHOULD be called on the carpet for it.

I think its more likely that they've been drifting apart and communicating poorly, though -- and that if he were given the opportunity to write his own letter, he'd be able to point out things that she's been doing that drive him equally crazy.

So improving communication (through counseling, probably, at this point) seems the best option for healing this marriage. As long as both sides participate and both are willing to take a serious look at their own actions and take responsibility for their part in the breakdown.

@Bobaloo, re LW2: That's what's so sad. There's really no place for teenagers to go if they don't have a trusted family member (parent, aunt, sibling, etc.) This is why teenagers turn to their peers and friends for advice; they have nowhere else to turn. Not surprisingly, teenagers don't always give the best advice and it doesn't always end well. I really don't think it's an issue of school counselors not caring, I just think they have too much other work to do.
My own experience: I attended two high schools (private and public.) At the private high school, the counselor really, really did care about the students, but she was so bogged down with making sure students graduated, etc. that she didn't have time for much else. At the public school, you literally had to make an appointment to talk with your assigned counselor. You also had to explain to the secretary what you wanted to talk about. I'm fairly certain, they wouldn't make an appointment if it wasn't for school purposes.

@LW1: I think Lise gave great advice. I would LOVE to hear the husband's side of this story. The wife sounds pouty and easily offended. I wonder if her helplessness was just too much for the husband and he wants her to learn to help herself. The damsel in distress act gets old fast. Also, pouting, by yourself, at a social gathering? Come on, grow up. My boyfriend is a social butterfly and when we go out, he mingles. I have two options: pout and be miserable, or socialize myself. I've found it's much more fun to socialize. This LW should try it.

@Jpp #14- or slow boat to Japan.... hahahaha

All aboard.... Nanchan Japan

@Jane -- I'm not sure reversing the genders really works here the way you intend it to for a couple of reasons:

1) LW isn't just asking him to do things for her (though clearly that is her main focus), she's also asking him to do things for their FAMILY (which includes at least a daughter, whose special events he is apparently missing). One of the things we commonly hear about is a spouse (usually the wife) being too busy doing everything for the children to pay much attention to the other spouse (usually the husband). In those scenarios, it's not uncommon for the advice to be, "well, perhaps if you helped out more with the kids, then your spouse would have more time/energy to spend with you." Again, while we most commonly see this complaint from a husband about a wife, it could certainly go either way. In this case, however, the husband isn't merely not spending time with his wife, the husband isn't spending time with the child, either.

2) In your scenario, you refer to cooking and other housework -- stuff that most people, in my experience, mostly only do for themselves (and their families) at home. And it's stuff that usually has to be done either daily or at least weekly. Fixing a sink, or fixing a car that won't start isn't usually something that happens every day or even weekly (and if it IS happening that frequently, it's certainly time to get a professional to look at it!). The caveat to that, of course, is someone who cooks or certain household chores for a living. A friend of mine is a personal chef. Sometimes, after cooking all day for her clients and donating her services to charity, she takes one look at her husband at the end of the day and says, "we're ordering pizza tonight." Since it doesn't happen every night (or even all that frequently), I don't think he's complaining about it. I mention this because of the LW's signature -- a take on the old "the shoemaker's children go shoeless" saw. Not sure if LW was just using this tongue in cheek, or if her husband really is a plumber (actually, I'm assuming not, because she doesn't mention it anywhere else in the letter).

But certainly, the stuff that LW1 is complaining about are things that can apply to both genders -- and both genders should get similar advice. I know a woman who volunteers for a number of different charities because she is bent on climbing the social ladder and wants to be seen as a socialite/philanthropist -- but you never see her volunteering at her own children's school, and she is more apt to get a babysitter to take care of her kids so that she can go to yet another fundraiser, gala, etc. She has missed her kids' special events in order to attend charitable events. When she and her husband attend some of these events together, she wants to work the room (because she's all about furthering her "socialite career") -- he'd rather they spend what little time they have together actually being together. Her husband (whom I actually know better than I do the woman), has said stuff like, "she's so busy raising money for the orphans that she's turned her own kids into orphans!" And as you might imagine, he's not happy about it. If he ever asked me for advice (which he has not, and we are acquaintances, not close, long-time friends, so I'm not about to offer him unsolicited advice), I would tell him that he needs to sit down with his wife about how her devotion to charity -- while admirable and well-intended -- is leaving her family feeling short-changed. If, after trying to talk with her about it, there was no resolution, then I'd suggest counseling -- with or without her.

But I agree with Casey and others who said the LW does sound a pit pouty/whiny, and it would be interesting to hear the the husband's side of the story.

Whoa, Folks! Nanchan may be taking a very much needed break from the BTL. While I don't always appreciate her attitude and tone (that I interpret, that she might not mean), she pours a lot of her feelings, experience and knowledge into her posts, not to mention her time.

And while I did not appreciate the jabs at other posters she made, she was a contributor and NOBODY here deserves to be mocked like that. And I fully admit to be a bit of a "pot calling the kettle black" because of my snark directed at Lolley (who I still believe to be a middle aged man and a troll) and I apologize for that. Truly.

Enough with the snark and cattiness. We're all a (dysfunctional) family here.

if this is a duplicate, my apologies...

On LW2...
When I was in junior high, I saw the guidance counselor when I was being bullied by a couple of girls who had previously been my friends. She was willing, able and interested in helping me. I believe, in fact, that counseling -- as thought of in terms of therapy -- was part of her training and why she was there. When I in high school, I didn't have any such issues, so I never sought out a counselor for anything. But we did have mandatory meetings with our guidance counselors -- and those meetings were always about selecting classes, choosing colleges to apply to, etc. I believe the guidance counselors at my high school had little or no therapeutic counseling training and were strictly there for academic/career-type guidance. When I think back to my guidance counselor in high school, it would NEVER have occurred to me to go to her for anything not related to my academic career. Not because I don't think she wouldn't care but because I don't think she was equipped to help me -- her job was to help me choose classes, figure out colleges to apply to, etc.
I would like to think (and sincerely hope) that my high school did and does have a separate counselor who really is there for social/personal issues, as opposed to academic/career issues -- but I honestly have no idea if it does!

LW 1 She sounds weak and clingy. Unless he is a mechanic he would just call a tow truck when her car won't start. She can call the tow truck herself, she is an adult. She demands that he spend time with her, but she sounds like a chore to be around. People spend time with others that they enjoy being with, not because they are forced to be with them. The LW should become more independent and interesting so people will want to be around her. Maybe then her husband will actually enjoy her company.

@Chelle, agreed. There's no need to talk about any poster who isn't here. I find it interesting that the snippiest discussion that has happened BTL since her departure is about her, though. It seems obvious that she was a rather contentious and divisive poster when she was here, and that because of that there remain some residual hard feelings amongst other BTLers.

Better, I think, to simply not talk about her one way or the other. Some BTL suspect that her departure is a ruse, and if so, then any drama relating to her name may be exactly what she is hoping for. I don't necessarily agree with that theory, though. For myself, I rather hope that she simply and maturely decided it was no longer productive or enjoyable for her to participate here in the often contentious and divisive way she used to, and she made the responsible decision to retire, and now participates in other fora that she feels more at home in.

Sometimes a specific online arena isn't always the best fit for someone, no matter how initially well-meaning they may have been. In such cases, maybe she's "moved on to better pastures", and if so, I think that's great and wish her much success and happiness.

But there's also no longer a need to dwell on the past anymore, either -- regardless of how some may like to invoke her name to stir up drama. (Remember that there are several semi-regulars here who actually *like* it when BTLers snipe at each other, and often actively post to instigate the melodrama they crave -- they don't really like nanchan, they just like the way she would seem to be at the center of so much drama here, and so they want to use her name to continue that in her absence.)

Re: Chelle
While I agree that we should refrain on the snark towards her (God knows I have been applying this to myself), you have to remember that the reason why many posters feel the way they do is because so many of us have all too often been on the receiving end of unwarranted ridiculing, snide remarks, personal attacks and catty snark in general.

Some might want to add that attacking the absent is a mark of cowardice, but I don't think she's really that absent.

But I agree that we should keep to the high road and not treat her like she has treated us. Let's just ignore her absence and enjoy it while it lasts.

LW 2 The high schools around here (FL) have a school psychologist who serves several schools. She is at each school 1 or 2 days a week. Students can talk to her and she usually points them in the direction they need, i.e. talks to their parents or get counseling. I think all high schools would have someone who could help if the student has problems at home that they can't talk to the parents about.

RE: nanchan - wow, guys! Sorry - didn't mean to stir anything up. It was just a mild observation that I verbalized. I thught I was a regular reader (not poster) here, but apparently I missed much of the negative back-and-forth between you all that has caused such animosity. I would not have even mentioned it, had i known. Enough said.

Mike H and Lise, this is a perfect example of why I always read every word of your posts.

And Mike H, now that you mention it, there has been some truly pleasant back and forth on this board without certain contributors. There hasn't been a dust-up in days.

Both of you have been unfairly bashed in the past and it was really hard for me not to comment on situations I considered not only rude, but just plain vicious.

I still believe the best way to avoid the fracas the comes along with opinionated and demeaning posts is to ignore it as much as possible.

But also, I remember Joannakathryn posting once about Delphi, saying, "come on over to Delphi, it's a real bloodbath right now". Now that's just fun.

Dear LW1:
Your husband of 8 years no longer appreciates you. He is done impressing you, now busy impressing everyone else. He is not a lost cause. If he ever realized he could lose you, I bet things would change. He is taking you for granted and thinks you can take care of yourself. Counseling is definately in order. Perhaps mention in counseling that you don't feel that he appreciates you and maybe it's time to call it quits? Then see how he reacts! I bet he will turn his attention to you. I wish you all the luck.

Lori Sue, please keep commenting here. You didn't "stir" anything up, I thought your comment was funny, but I was concerned if everybody jumped on the bandwagon, we could get a real bashing session going.

It's a fine line between posting conflicting opinions and experiences and then having it turn into something that leads to hurt feelings and really negative posts that don't help anyone.

Once again, your comments and point of view are valued here and please keep posting.

Lise, let me add to the chorus - great job on LW1. "Dennis" sounds like my ex husband. He was there for everyone except me, especially if it was a good looking woman. He flirted and complimented the ladies at the bank, etc., but didn't give any consideration. Eventually I noticed that he treated people he just met better than long time friends. I'm afraid that "Dennis" isn't going to change. He values popularity and being the life of the party more than the feelings of the people closest to him. Living with someone like this (man or woman) is a bitter existence. As for me, I remarried a wonderful man. The ex is on wife #4.

Haha, Chelle, don't take the nanchan biz too seriously. She sucks some serious butt and although sometimes I miss the entertainment/drama, I don't REALLY miss it. No snark meant, I promise - it's just the way it is.

Re: Lori Sue
Don't worry about it. When somebody as, ah, prolific as she is suddenly stops posting, it is bound to trigger some questioning, just like nobody could possibly reasonably expect you to remember everything she has ever said, snarky or otherwise, even recently!

@Chelle
"I remember Joannakathryn posting once about Delphi, saying, "come on over to Delphi, it's a real bloodbath right now". Now that's just fun."
She was saying that tongue-in-cheek, because some troll had been suggesting we were all busy ripping to shreds this Creator poster and that.

@Danielle
Both sound like narcissists to me - addicted to both the spotlight and the applause. I'm like that, too - but only on stage. ;-D

Re: Jane #11

Wow! I can't believe your guidance counselor actually defended him!! Would she say the same thing if she had a 16 year old daughter who went to her with that problem? I doubt it.

He didn't really mean it?? Oh, yeah right! We all know that when a man asks a teenager for sex he's "only kidding!" But I will say this - you go, girl for the way you handeled it! You got to avoid him and still got an A. Good for you!!

Dennis yells at her, calls her names, spends money they don't have, etc., etc.

What I don't understand is why she even wants to spend time with him. I spend an hour with him at the lawyer's office and be done.

Re: Joannakathryn

I'd, not I. Sheesh.

Oh, and Chelle, Lise was right. People were saying things about Delphi that just weren't true, so I was joking. I hope you'll visit us if you haven't already.

Re: jennylee (#15)

The points you make about insurance – that's just the problem. In some cases, the LAST thing a teen wants is for his/her parents to find out they're talking to someone else (i.e., another adult) about a situation, particularly a difficult home situation. Because then, just wait until they get home ... .

And yeah, the conversation between teen and counselor might still be confidential ... but the bill would show that the teen was at the counselor's office. (The bill wouldn't necessarily state why – just "services rendered" or something.)

Draw your own conclusions.

Hence, why I personally think a trusted adult, including a school guidance counselor, IS a good idea. It's free ... and Demanding, Domineering Dad don't gotta know, ya' dig? (In other words, there's nothing to tip him off.)

LW1
It sounds to me like your marriage is over. Really, even if you can get to the bottom of your issues with "Dennis" through counseling you'll still be married to a jerk who was willing to treat you and your family disrespectfully and without common courtesy. It really sounds like he just doesn't like you any more and is not mature enough to deal with it in a forthright manner. Very passive aggressive. My ex started behaving in the same way shortly before our divorce. He just was incapable of being forthright about his feelings. I don't know which of us started not liking the other first, but when you lose the friendship in a marriage it's done for. I finally had to tell him to leave because he wouldn't move out and move on without me forcing the issue even though he clearly didn't want to be there.

Re: L2
When I was in high school and went to my guidance counselor with a problem she promptly called my parents without my permission and relayed everything I'd told her in confidence. A few years later she killed herself in a suicide pact with a woman she was having an affair with - completely blindsiding her husband the local dentist. I hope kids have better luck with their counselors.

Re: BTL
Answering inquiries about "Lord Voldemort" just makes you look like you're rising to the bait once again. Please just listen to Mike H. and Zoe and put a lid on it.

Re: Jane
Actually, I was sort of with Dennis and at first thought that his wife was being whiny. I unfortunately have friends like this, who will act as if they are being abandoned if their spouses take two steps away from them at a party. LW1 does sound really clingy. I would not enjoy being married to someone who spends social functions pouting in the corner and glowering at whoever I talk to.
However, Dennis lost me when LW1 said that he misses birthdays, holidays and his kids school stuff to go schmooze with his friends. So what if the letter read like this:
"Diane will go above and beyond for others. It doesn't matter if it's the middle of the night, raining, snowing, spending money we don't have, missing meals, birthdays, holidays and our daughter's school programs. If it's a chance to make herself look good, she's there with a smile and compassion. I have to hire someone to come clean the house. But when I ask Diane to treat her family with the same enthusiasm, she calls me a selfish nag."
Personally, I would then say the same that's been said about Dennis, that Diane seems to be a lot more about her ego than her family. If he's having trouble with his wife, he needs to address those instead of running off to impress his friends all of the time.
Not only does LW1 need to go to counseling, but she needs to get her own set of friends. For one thing, she sounds like she is pretty depressed and needs to get out more. But more importantly, chances are that their mutual friends are going to ditch her like a bad habit if the marriage goes bad. Been there, done that. While I was working all day to support us, my ex was hanging out with his friends working on their websites. Guess who had the friends when I decided that enough was enough?
In short, it sounds like there is a lot of fail on both ends.

Gah. Forgot about the space bar thing when posting here. Sheesh! Sorry for the wall of text, folks.

LW1--Your husband is obviously of the type who is a well-respected pillar of the community; would give the shirt off his back to a friend in need and appears outwardly the paragon of honesty and virtue. Meanwhile, behind closed doors the man is a nightmare of a husband and father. Seem familiar? From where I sit you have a few choices. You claim you still love your husband (why, I cannot fathom) so you could insist that he accompany you to marriage counseling and hope for the best. Another option is to inform your husband that your days of being his prom date are over and that you'll be dumping him to purse an honest to goodness two-way relationship. Or, you could use your position as the humble plumber's wife to "leak" your husband's dirty laundry all over town so that at the very least, a more honest portrait of him emerges.

LW3--Frankly my dear, I would like to hope that if a poor unfortunate student were to shamble into your office with a debilitating personal problem, you could be bothered to put aside your paperwork and other bureaucratic bullshit for five minutes to do the humane, compassionate thing and help the student in any way you could. Evidently, however, that wasn't strictly typed into your job description so if the students without academic questions will excuse you, you have better things to do. What a waste! I sincerely hope you consider a career change yesterday!!

*** Off Topic ***

Did anyone else have trouble posting to yesterday's thread? My post never showed up there. I copied and pasted it four times throughout the late afternoon evening EST and once again today to no avail. Oh well...

Re: Chris #47
I didn't have any trouble posting yesterday, but I wasn't here much -- too busy with life :)

@Chris- I was wondering what happened to you yesterday. Thouht you may have deserted us too.

Zoe- good to see you back!

Mike and OTHERS - not another snarky word from me regarding NANCHAN but I do hope that when she returns that she refrains from calling KITTY "SHITTY", MAGGIE "SAGGY" and LOCATE "SLOCATE" plus the numerous names she has called CHRIS and the ridicule she shows to LISE & ZOE

LW1- I kinda feel bad for her. She may have had a little Pity Party going on but from her point of view (we don't get to hear his) it does sound like she and her daughter are not his top priority.

Lw2- back in the day (30 years ago) our HS Counselor did help out with personal problems... Especially family ones BUT with all of the cuts plus having school staff perform more with less money, I can see that things may fall short in every dept.

JANE- OMGosh on what you went through with the teacher and how the counselor wanted to brush it under the rug.

LW!- I feel bad that so many posters are ripping on this wife. She says he used to be a good husband, helping her out with things, taking her out, being nice to her. Then he changed, and began ignoring her when he took her out, stopped making repairs that he used to do at home, and yelling at her to get it done herself. In other words, he completely changed the dynamic in their marriage. And yet some of you are blaming her, and saying she sounds whiny and clingy. Wow, are you actually her husband? Because I get what she is saying- he changed the way he treats her, he changed what he is willing to do around the house, but he is still helpful and charming to people outside their marriage. I am on HER side. He pulled a big time bait and switch on her. She should go to counseling, if only to strenghten her resolve, because I doubt if he will go to counseling, and I doubt if he will change. She should get her financial ducks in a row, get a good lawyer, and then prepare to say good riddance to her jerk of a husband.

Any forum that has Lise, Maggie & Joannakathryn I'm sure is fantastic and I did know it tongue-in-cheek and very funny.

I do tend to skip over most of Nanchan's posts because there just seems to be so much negativity and I flat out don't like the meanness of it, so it never registered the names she has called the other posters here. The thing I have noticed is the replies from posters such as Chris and Zoe for example, when they are attacked. That is what I noticed most.

Maybe she does have it coming. But I happen to think that the posters here are above sinking to that level.

LW3: I agree that your son-in-law's half-sister should have come forward years earlier, but I've been in this situation (my father sexually abused my sister and myself, then went on to abuse my nieces) and can tell you that it's really, really hard to do. It's possible she did try to tell someone and they don't want to hear about it.
In fact, my mother said that flat out when I told her at about age 15: "There are some things I don't want to hear about and you are never to bring up that subject again."
Plus, pedophiles tend to be attracted to younger and younger victims over time. I was entering puberty when my father started molesting me, so I thought I was in plenty of time, telling my sister in law and brother long before my nieces got that old. I wasn't. He'd already started.

I hesitate responding, CarlyO, not because there is not ample evidence to contradict your extreme, inaccurate, ridiculously generalized statements, but because every aspect of your reply is clearly indicative that you have your mind made up and that based on your experience, there is nothing to sway your opinion. In the interest of dealing with accurate information, however, I'll go ahead and lay out some facts.

Great Benefits? I pay for my health benefits (on par, or above other government and private agencies), and am thankful to have them. My percentage of payment for my health benefits has increased steadily over my career. I just turned in my 2012 taxes. I made less this year, having added in TWO part-time jobs, than I made last year, and I am looking at stepping up my part-time work dramatically this summer. Our district has not passed a new tax levy since 1995. For the record, our seniors were being born that year. Short working year? I have kept track of and calculated my hours I work (on school work--not the other jobs that I undertake), and put in more hours of school work during a school calendar year than does a person who works 8-5, 50 weeks a year with two weeks' vacation. I cannot begin to calculate how many times I have done things that are NOT part of my required content standards of sixth grade Social Studies (writing letters of recommendation for former students heading off to college, etc.) on my own time.

In spite of all this, (to say nothing of classroom conditions and of students who don't come to school and are not required to be here, but for whose scores I am responsible and that affect my evaluations and my pay) I enjoy my students, I love helping them to 'get it' and yes, I work with them (where we can squeeze it in) on handwriting, even though it's no longer taught at the lower levels and isn't a required skill at any level (much to my chagrin). I work with them to teach them life skills and to 'get' the big picture of their actions and the consequences that come from them, and I have, on multiple occasions looked into foster care, adoption, and providing for them, as they are coming from such difficult situations. I am not alone in my style of teaching and care. Currently, our guidance counselor is also looking into adopting a sibling set in extreme need.

CarlyO, you list the problems that we see from teachers, coaches, and the like, but do you realize that *because* it is news, that means that it is still an unusual event? If it became so common that it was NOT news, that would be when it is not frequent. You are taking information from sensational, albeit horrible, situations, and tarring and feathering an entire group by the actions of a horrible few, even as you would take the actions of a small number of persons from a race, a religious group, or a region of the country and lambaste the whole on the headline-grabbing (because of its unusual nature) actions of an obvious minority.

There is no point in 'apologizing a little' in word, when the tone of both notes is so abundantly clear in your thoughts and actions. Make no mistake--I support, 100%, your right to your thoughts and your right to express them (we teach the first amendment in class, as well, and discuss it extensively); but as of the time of my reading this, no one has posted facts to the contrary of the anecdotal accounts you mentioned, and so I'll post this for consideration from a different perspective.

Re: Chris
"Leak" your husband's dirty laundry all over town so that at the very least, a more honest portrait of him emerges."
Except that he is so busy being Mister Congeniality and drumming up support here, there that nobody will believe her. I wouldn't bother if I were her. If someone ever asks her why she divorced such a wonderful guy, she can merely answer that the wonderful guy they know was not the one she saw at home, and leave it at that.

I rarely have a problem posting here. Yahoo! is the site that keeps acting up on me and driving me ding-dong batty.

@Chelle
I happen to believe that anyone resorting to name-calling is merely exhibiting a woeful lack of valid arguments.

@Seabeast2
I'm sorry for what you went through. I hope you don't feel like you failed your nieces - you couldn't have known. Nobody is born witb a doctor's degree in psychiatry, and certainly not with a specialty in pedophile behaviour.

And welcome as a new poster!

Re: Suzanne
I did not comment on LW2 because I know absolutely nothing on the subject. I do know (this is valid about every group and every situation) that there always are some bad apples making it look like the entire barrel is rotten and stinking to high heaven - sometimes it is, often it is not. I do no doubt that, just like there are thieving investment counsellors, bad mechanics, incompetent physicians and therapists who abuse their power, there are also rotten school counsellors.

Thank you for not being one of them and for giving your perspective, and welcome as a new poster.

LW1: Lots of misogynistic crap being spewed at the LW here! The phony gender reversal argument holds no water if you actually read what she wrote. Her husband YELLS at her if the car won't start. WTF??? He calls her a selfish nag. His own wife! He's "spending money we don't have, missing meals, birthdays, holidays and our daughter's school programs." This goes far beyond disagreements over the division of labor. It's axiomatic that those who treat strangers like friends end up treating their friends like strangers, and this guy is a textbook case. Not because he's a man, you whiners, but because he's mistreating his own family. It's Gaslighting 101, going out of your way to appear helpful to others to compound the mistreatment you're heaping on your target. Gender has nothing to do with it. He's having an affair, either with another woman or with his own facade.

The Annies are right that she needs to stop being miserable and take better care of herself. When she gets out from under, I hope she begins to see that she deserves better and doesn't need this self-important loser.

Re: Suzanne

My sister is a teacher and will support everything I said. I never said it is an easy job. but I don't know where you live, and I am only talking about my state.

The Teachers Union in NJ has realized they needed to make concessions. Suzanne, I do appreciate what you do.

Re: Suzanne

Suzanne, if you want to prove that abuse of students is not pretty much rampant, I suggest the task is on you. Yes, there are wonderful teachers, but it seems that we hear more and more about abuse. How about you show me the schools where the kids are safe? And the churches, Catholic or otherwise where the kids are safe.

Very sanctimonous post.

Suzanne,

One final thought for you, because I think you are a fool. You sound like you look forward to the time when the constant abuse of students ceases to be news because it has been accepted. My information is both anecdotal, and sadly so much of it in our Catholic School/Parish, and from personal experience with an English teacher in my expensive all girls Catholic high school. If I and my brother were both affected, and the news speaks for itself, our kids are not safe. You may be a pillar of sanctimony, but you need to be careful. Nobody thought Ted Bundy looked dangerous.

Lise--Thank you for the welcome. You are correct--there are rotten eggs in the world...rarely does it mean that the whole is corrupt.

Carly O--I happen to be quite anti-teacher-union myself, because of the harms that that particular whole has done to the part. While I am against the NEA and the unions in a large sense, I am also aware that there are *many* individual teachers that do not agree with the whole, but are either coerced by their district's contracts (in non-right-to-work states) into officially 'belonging' to the union, or else disagree with the unions, but haven't found another form of insurance/protection, and therefore belong. Do I act with my vote and my dollars according to my conscious? I do. Do I know the issues and articulate the problems with the unions as an organization? Yes. Do I make sweeping statements regarding "all the rotten teachers in the teachers' unions"? I do not.

It is not sanctimony that you hear in my writing, Carly O...I *do* however, have strong conviction against the sensationalism that gets the headlines. Is it tragic when a child is abducted? Absolutely! But while crime is down across the board according to the FBI, fear and perception of crime continues to rise. Most people are shocked to discover that only 115 children out of a population of 300,000,000 are abducted by strangers each year. The perception is that it is a MUCH larger percentage. Now--are 115 child abductions 115 too many? ABSOLUTELY. But to take the fact that child abductions occur and immediately tar and feather whole swathes of people would be a ludicrous response. Find the people responsible and hang them higher than Haman for the crime. But that doesn't mean that the vast majority of children are in constant danger of being abducted and I don't choose to look at people in that light, nor live according to the fears of 'what if'.

In 2011, Canada's homicide rate was at a 44 year low. And yet in a survey, over 80% of Toronto residents believed that crime was higher. Researchers looked into it and found that while there were 68 homicides in Toronto that year, there was a new homicide reported in the newspaper every. single. day. How did they manage that over 365 days with only 68 (undeniably tragic) homicides in Toronto? They went outside the city of Toronto in their reporting. In fact, 40% of the homicides they were reporting in the Toronto paper were American. This is the sort of sensationalism that makes me *refuse* to assume the evil of the whole based on anecdotal information of the part.

I am truly sorry to hear of the horrible experiences that you and your family members have had in New Jersey, in the school system, and in the Catholic church. Those actions are wrong and should NOT have happened. Having done my student teaching on the East Coast (though I am further west, now), however, I don't for a moment assume all the people of New Jersey, the public school system, and the Catholic church to think that those things are right or good, or that they in any way approve or agree with the harms done to a child. Believe me, I struggle with keeping my temper in check towards the evil men and women that harm children. I am actively and financially involved in providing help, recovery, and counseling for kids who have been harmed and in rescuing children from actual slavery that still exists today, both in America and around the world, in spite of what people may believe.

For you to read what I wrote about my deep care and concern for my students, to call me a fool, and to make the statement that I "look forward to the time when the constant abuse of students ceases to be news because it has been accepted", is either the height of foolishness in logic and reason, a willful refusal to understand what I was writing, or evidence of some mindset that I simply cannot understand from what you have here written. I simply refuse to say that all of *any* large group represented in myriad cultures (teachers, police officers, soldiers, church workers, doctors, lawyers, guidance counselors, government workers, health care providers, coaches, day care providers, bank workers, etc.) are rotten, or to write sarcastic comments towards them and their profession, simply because I've encountered a less-than-lovely member of their trade. 300,000,000 people in the US is a *lot* of people. 7,000,000,000 on the planet is a lot of people. I like to meet them and interact with them as individuals, in every way possible.

Carly O, I went through 4 different schools (kindergarten, elementary, middle, and high) with no experience of abuses by teachers, though a few experiences of students abusing others (one particularly cruel boys' team held down a student and carved a slur into his back; they were all immediately expelled and reported). Teachers don't have "cushy benefits" in my experience - as Suzanne indicates, they often pay for them themselves (usually out of their own paycheck). They don't get 3 months off - they get 3 months without pay. Average teacher salary is around 40,000 in my state. That's not swimming in riches. And they have to use those "months off" to recertify, out of their own pocket, in any number of things. Most teachers I know who manage to survive long-term HAVE to take on other work - because they can't afford their bills on a teacher's salary. As it is, that salary is dependent on students - those same. Students who think nothing of sneaking opium into class (true story) or carving epithets into another person's back, or not even coming to school at all. And the parents always blame the teachers for those actions. Not to mention the vast amount who simply choose not to do the work. Teachers don't just work a 6-8 hour school day, either. They must prepare lesson plans, grade dozens - sometimes hundreds - of papers a night (often unintelligible ones, due to kids not paying attention in class), and they must teach classes that number far beyond the state average, with students who would rather text than tune in, no matter the cell phone policy (or the number of times they've been sent to the principal's office for disobeying). And beyond what teachers ought to be teaching (basic writing/reading skills, math, critical thinking), parents expect teachers to teach kids manners, religion, and social skills (not on the curricula of most schools), all the while with the state insisting that the teahcer in question teach to an often outmoded (and sometimes incorrect) standardized test. Sure, there are bad teachers - we've all had them. But in the 4 schools I went to, with a total of probably over 100 teachers, I can remember only 3 who were truly awful (and none who were abusive).

Re: Suzanne
"Most people are shocked to discover that only 115 children out of a population of 300,000,000 are abducted by strangers each year. The perception is that it is a MUCH larger percentage."
"In 2011, Canada's homicide rate was at a 44 year low. And yet in a survey, over 80% of Toronto residents believed that crime was higher."
I would credit the media for that. Not only violent crimes receive huge coverage (the more violent, the more coverage), but the shows that are on telly these days... I used to think Law & Order and CSI Miami were graphic... W-e-l-l. Enter Criminal Minds, Dexter, 24, the Sopranos, Spartacus, The Borgias... When we are bombarded by violence, whether in the paper or on "entertainment" telly, methinks we believe violence is everywhere. Because we are surrounded by the enemy.

Suzanne- thank you for your post defending teachers. I am a retired teacher, and I can tell you- I am very tired of hearing, and responding to, mean spirited comments about teachers. The venom directed against ALL teachers for what a few do, is very ignorant. I had the pleasure of working with a teacher from New Jersey once, and I am sure that she received an excellent education there, because she was very hard working and dedicated. So I am quite sure that a few teachers in Jersey may be lacking, but all of them? I doubt it. Also, as the dear departed Mayor of Chicago used to say- it is easy to criticise evrything, but where are YOUR ideas?
Show me a school with teachers who seem not to care, and I'll show you a school with parents who don't come to conferences to check on their children's progress, parents who never join the PTA or PTO, parents who never volunteer in the school, and parents who send their children to school dirty, tired, and unfed. We can only work our magic when the children show up with a good attitude, and with hyper-critical parents, you will not get a child eager to learn. Sad.

Re: Patty Bear
You summed up the problem in a nutshell. Add cuts to the education a gogo, AND school directors bent on pleasing the parents, and there you go.

Add to that mix adults galore bent on exercising their right to bear arms + the shows I listed above and a few more besides + a good dollop of unaddressed and relentless bullying = school shootings and teen/child suicides.