Dear Margo® by Margo Howard

LW1: What a nasty piece of work this stepmother is. The daughter isn't an unemployed loser. She's actively trying to buy a house and the stepmother wants to bully her out the door instead of letting this work its way through for a few more weeks. I think she should back off and stop doing all she can to wreck her husband's relationship with his daughter. I'm sure she'd like very much to wipe away the fact that her husband had a life before she came along, but that isn't possible. Her hatred for the girl comes through in every syllable. There's no better way to sink her marriage than by declaring open war with his daughter, and it seems so needless in this situation.

Lw1 - Let go of what this young woman did 6 - 12 years ago, and start living in the present. I can't tell why you want this woman out of your house beyond the fact that she doesn't talk to you & you don't like her. If you have something more specific - e.g. she doesn't put dishes in the dishwasher or clean up after herself - then work on those specific issues. Maybe you should start charging rent, or requiring more chores, like watching her brother while you & hubby go out. If this were my kid, and her step parent was leaning on me to throw her out, I'd need a good reason, and it wouldn't have anything to do with what she did when she was 11. Your reciting all her sins from when she was a teenager and only vague complaints about her 24 year old self just makes you look petty.

Has Stepmom tried talking to daughter about what's bothering her? As with Kai Archie, there don' seem to be any recen major sins, just bad history and a somewhat obnoxious adult. Just kicking her out would be what Carolyn Hax might call a "baseball bat of honesty" after years of simmering silence. Try to have some small conversations first. If daughter tantrums over having to do chores/eat dinner with you every now and then/whatever issues there are, THEN you have grounds to say she can't stay anymore.

LW2- and Margo -

Are you both so narcissistic or egotistical that your wishes outweigh the stated wishes of the people who are inviting you to the event; that you just have to ignore the requests for no gifts? Really. I can tell you that someone who ignores a stated wish like that to an event I have invited themselves to are immediately asked to leave as soon as the gift is seen and makes it onto my do not invite list. I choose not to surround myself with those narcissists. Some one may have not said it to your face yet Margo; but they are too polite to make a scene and that is probably the reason they have let your boorishness slide. The never of some people.

I don't think LW2 is a narcissist. I, too, don't like going to an event like a wedding without a gift. While I don't like the idea of a donation to a charity on someone's behalf unless you know them VERY well and would know where they would donate on their own, I think a card sent to the house with a restaurant gift card is a nice idea. If it's an older couple as in this letter, they probably already have everything needed to set up housekeeping so didn't need gifts of that nature like a couple just starting out. Lighten up, Paula, before you blow a blood vessel.

LW1: At 24 her Father nor you are under any obligation to house her for free, especially if her attitude is self serving and selfish. I question the example she is setting to your younger two children, that they are seeing is that they can be bums and live off Mom and Dad not to mention say whatever they please.
If she isn't paying rent, start charging it. If she's not contributing to household chores, start giving them to her. It made her move out in the past, no reason to think it won't motivate her to move on now. This woman has learned that she can go ahead and take, take, take and no one will say “No” because nice people feel “guilt”. Your husband needs to get rid of it and be her Father, not her guilt ridden free ride.

Yes, indeed, Paula, the "never" of some people! You should probably set up your own manners advice column - I mean, anyone who orders a guest to leave a function for the unforgiveable slight of bringing a gift against your wishes - well, that's certainly a standard we need more of. Not!

Actually, aimee, gifts are NEVER supposed to brought to a wedding. They should be sent to the couple's residence before or after the event. The fact that people do it anyway doesn't make it proper. It's a logistics matter if nothing else - what are the couple, who are about to go on a wedding trip, supposed to do with all those gifts on the table? Just one more thing to worry about.

LW1 -- I was caught by surprise by Louisa Finnell's response about the step-mother just being a witch who is just stuck in the past, as opposed to having concrete issues in the present. Mind you, they may well be right. LW says she is "lazy and self-centered and barely speaks to us." Now, I interpreted "lazy" to mean that she is not helping out around the house at all. And I assumed that when she says "barely speaks to US" that this means the step-daughter is also not talking to her father, either -- in other words, this isn't just about the LW's relationship with the step-daughter, it is also about the relationship between the father and daughter. But I do see that it is entirely possible that the LW has so much animosity and resentment that was never dealt with or let go from the past that she is allowing that to color her every thought and interaction with her step-daughter.

So, with that in mind, I like the advice given by kai archie, jers and commentator. The first step is to try to address the specific problems (assuming there ARE specific problems). Obviously, the point of the daughter moving in with them was to save rent money -- but a very modest rent could be charged, or she could be asked to contribute to household expenses such as groceries or even utility bills. But if her spending that money is going to mean delaying her ability to move out, you could skip monetary compensation and instead require her to contribute to the household in other ways, assigning certain chores to her. If she throws a fit and/or refuses, you will then definitely have concrete reasons for throwing her out -- and you may be surprised when your husband is perfectly willing to be the bad guy once he sees you making an honest effort to make this work and sees her throwing a tantrum in response.

@Louisa Finnel -- For as surprised as I was by your relatively virulent post about LW1, it DOES have merit. Even though I interpreted her statements to mean that she actually did have some concrete, legitimate complaints, I have to say that you are right that it's very possible she doesn't (saying she's "lazy" doesn't automatically mean she's not helping out around the house) and that she has allowed her past history with this woman to color her perceptions and interactions with her in the present. One thing I would point out, however, is that you wrote: "the stepmother wants to bully her out the door instead of letting this work its way through for a few more weeks." A few more weeks... I live in one of the so-called "sand states" -- you know, the ones that were hardest hit when the mortgage bubble burst. I have seen a LOT of short sales. I have yet to see one that was resolved in less than a year. It's been six months. Yes, it's possible the sale will go through in just "a few more weeks," but it is just as possible -- if not MORE LIKELY -- that it's going to be AT LEAST a few more MONTHS, possibly longer. It's very easy to sit back and say, "what's a few more weeks" -- when you KNOW it really is going to be just a few more weeks. It's a whole lot harder to do that when you really don't know how much longer it's going to take and are aware of the fact that it could take a WHOLE lot longer than just "a few more weeks."

@Paula -- As others have noted, you need to lighten up. Most of the people I know who put "no gifts, please" do that more because they don't want to be seen as "gift grubbing" than because they really don't want any gifts. The LW doesn't say this, but as this is an older couple, I'm wondering if this may also be a second marriage for one or both of them. People getting married for a second time are well aware of the fact that some people will begrudge them having a big wedding, registering for gifts, etc., and in most such cases, they are combining two households that were already mostly fully stocked, so they really don't need another toaster. But they would still appreciate a token gift (like a gift certificate for dinner, as Margo suggested), or they might even appreciate something that commemorates the day but isn't the typical stock gift of weddings -- china, place settings, etc. I went to a wedding for an older couple -- a second wedding for both of them -- and it was "no gifts, please." I happened to know that when the groom proposed to his bride, he read a poem by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, so I bought them a special edition, leather-bound book of Browning's poetry and correspondence with her husband. They were thrilled. And I know they weren't just being polite and actually steaming mad that I had decided that my wishes outweighed theirs. I could offer you a long story about how I know this to be true, but this post is already going to be too long, so I won't bother unless you ask me to offer it up.

As another example, I am currently expecting my second child. I was always taught that you only get one baby shower -- after that, the theory goes, you should have enough hand-me-downs that you don't "need" a shower, so I am not having a shower. Well, as luck would have it, I sure wish I was having a shower. For one thing, my first was a boy, and my second is a girl -- so not a lot of clothes that can be handed down. Moreover, I wasn't supposed to be able to get pregnant again, so I had been systematically giving things away -- the infant carrier, the infant swing, the infant seat, the infant "gym," etc. Plus, since my oldest is still not ready to transition to a toddler bed, I had to go get a second crib, not to mention the other furniture. Oh, and let's not forget the double stroller I'm going to need. These are big-ticket items that I wouldn't expect one person to give me as a shower gift, but it's possible some people might "team up" to give me one of these big-ticket items as a group gift, and if not, just getting some of the other smaller things taken care of so that I could just focus on getting the big-ticket items would be a big help.

So, I'm not having a shower, because I know that etiquette says I shouldn't. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate any gifts that might wind up coming our way anyway (and, indeed, I've already received a few gifts, and I likely will get more in the weeks ahead -- I'm due in June). I actually have had two different people ask me if I'm going to have another shower (both of whom subsequently offered to throw one for me when I said I wasn't, I might add). I don't feel comfortable having a big, organized event. But if people individually choose to send or bring me gifts, I'm not about to write them off my list of friends.

Sometimes people give gifts because they feel obligated (which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by not having an actual shower -- and I find that is OFTEN the reason people put "no gifts, please" on an invite; it's not that they MIND getting gifts, it's that they don't want people to feel obligated). Sometimes people give gifts in order to show off or make themselves look good. But sometimes -- and I know this must be very hard for you to imagine -- people give gifts because they WANT to, because they love the person to whom they are giving the gift and want to express that love through a gift, and/or because they want to commemorate a special achievement or occasion. Yes, I know you find that impossible to believe, perhaps because you've driven off all those "narcissists" who once cared for you.

@LouisaFinnell -- just apologizing for misspelling your name in my original post to you!

Re: Paula
Are we expected to believe that someone with your total lack of charm and grace has hosted numerous events where you stated that you did not want gifts (already an etiquette faux pas), and yet your rude guests brought you gifts anyway? And do you really expect us to believe that you would actually ask those guests to leave because you saw a gift? Did you toss the gift out the door with them, or did you keep the gift? Did you send a thank you note?
And that you would need to cross those rude people off of your invitation list? I daresay that everything you said is a lie. I think you would probably have to beg people to come to an event of yours if you really are as rude as you presented yourself here.

Why is it so difficult for people to read? If the invite says no gifts, don't bring a gift! It's really not that difficult!

Re: Lisa

Lisa,

With your wonderful attitude, I think you will be getting lots of gifts from lots of people who will be giving you gifts because they really want to. Congratulations on the new baby!

Re: Paul W

Paul, have you met Paula?

It seems so easy, but if someone I cared enough about to spend a few hours of my life attending an event to celebrate an occasion important to them, I cannot imagine anyone being offended by a thoughtful gift. Lisa described a perfect, thoughtful gift with the first edition.

I never thought things would get so crazy that people would be offended by gifts, and that people would have to apologize, and worse, get ejected from an event, because they tried to make a kind gesture.

Kindness should not be met with outlandish rudeness. People like you and Paula remind me of women who chastise men for being kind enough to hold a door open for them.

These letters also were printed at WOW, and the stepmom gave a follow up comment. It turns out that the stepdaughter was holding back a lot of information from them, she was having financial difficulties due to messing up at work, she didn't have the down payment saved, and she was actually not in the process of buying the house. After a huge fight with her dad, the stepmom got everyone to calm down and talk it through, and the stepdaughter apologized and moved in with her boyfriend. So those of you accusing stepmom of being awful to the girl, it seems to me she was being very kind, and was just fed up with being taken advantage of. But anyway, it worked out.

LW1's response on wowOwow:

"I am LW1 and am very grateful for Margo's advise (and appreciate some of the comments that have been made here as well…I've lurked here since Margo first moved to WowOWow and have never commented before (or written in). My letter was somewhat abbreviated/wording changed (I assume to fit in the space) and I did not go into massive detail about the issue's that we have dealt with over the years in regards to my step-daughter.
With that said, I wanted to just comment in regards to things that Katharine and Janet posted…I am not hostile to my step-daughter nor am I jealous of her. I just do not have the time (or space) to go into the details of our relationship. The terms “lazy” and “self-centered” were not voiced by me but actually came out of my husband's mouth during one of our numerous discussions about her.
Since I originally wrote Margo, I did suggest to my husband that we sit down with my step-daughter together and give her a timeline for moving out (one of his major issues with the living situation is that she was expected to save money in the event of a down payment for the house…she lived with us completely free and our home is less than 2 miles from her job. She had barely saved any money at all. Additionally, she had been demoted at her job and had a pay cut and we found out from another source that she was not telling us the whole story about what had happened to cause that). At any rate, a day or two after our conversation, my husband spoke to his daughter about the house she was trying to get and found out that she did need a down payment which she didn't have enough money for (an amount that she should have had saved within 3 months of living with us). Through that conversation some other issues were brought up (in regards to respect for him and for our home) and he finally got fed up enough that he kicked her out then and there.
She said she would move in with her boyfriend. She came back the next day to start getting her stuff and had a huge argument with my husband. I ended up being the mediator through that argument and things actually ended on a good note (apologies were made by her and she thanked us for our help…love you's and hugs were exchanged by all).
She is still living with her boyfriend and doesn't seem to have any plans to get her own house now. We still see her and talk with her just as much as we did before she moved in. We all probably have a healthier relationship now that she's not living with us though.
Sorry if this was extremely rambly…"

@Patty Bear and nanchan -- thanks for sharing that! Definitely puts the whole thing regarding LW in a better perspective.

@Carly O (13) -- thanks!

@CarlyO: Most women do not wear a sign in plain black and white that says "PLEASE DO NOT OPEN DOORS FOR ME."
When the words of the invite are staring you in the face and clearly convey only one single messages, it should not be so difficult to follow what is written.

LW1--Obviously your husband's problem is that he can't say "no" to his daughter. Why do you think she turned out the way she is? Since your husband can't seem to locate his spine it will fall to you to tell his lazy two-faced daughter it's time she hit the road. If she gets pissed off and takes it out on her father so what. It seems as though your husband's daughter has been alternately taking things out on him and walking all over him for years anyway. It'll be no loss. Trust me, the next time the daughter needs money or a handyman to fix something in her new house the relationship with daddy will be instantly repaired. Booting this waste of space to the curb is a low risk proposition for your husband a complete win for you; do it tomorrow.

LW2--What part of "No gifts please" don't you understand? You're the reason why so many people seem confused about what to do when an invitation is clearly marked "no gifts." That's what the invitation says and so you must assume those are the wishes of the couple. Stop being a moron and simply attend the wedding.

Re: Paul W
First of all, gifts should not be mentioned on an invitation, even if the purpose is to request NO gifts. And this comment goes to Chris as well.
If you receive an invitation that has the NO Gifts comment, rude as it is, you are totally free to go to the event and celebrate. I have no problem with that. I was reacting to Paula's ridiculous comment that she claimed to eject people from events where people brought gifts. That is rude beyond the pale and I don't believe her.
And, Chris, it has been discussed frequently here that when an invitation, especially a wedding invitation, has the rude and wrong message about "No Gifts" that many people interpret that to mean that the couple wants cash. That is why the invitation should not say anything about gifts. Stop being so rude. Confusion about this kind of thing does not mean someone is a "moron" and I am so tired of your rudeness even when you are almost right.

Re: nanchan, YOU are LW1? Very strange.

Thank you Nanchan and Patty Bear for the copy/paste of the LW1's responses.

When I read the letter, I couldn't help but think that anyone given their way for so long probably fits in what the LW was describing to who the stepdaughter is today and how she turned out. Its something I've seen before. I'm glad that things are still good between family members. The stepdaughter is one who really needs to sink or swim and not have anyone bail her out in the future cause obviously she has learned nothing cause she never was held accountable for her actions growing up by either parent which lead up to the letter being written.

LW1 -
So, every time the kid was pissed at her mother, you took her in kindly? Every time you did that, you undermined the mother's authority, and allowed her to use one parent against another. I also wonder who attended to the emotional needs of an eleven year-old stuck in the middle of her parent's divorce - probably nobody, and all the chances are that she was left to fend for herself.

And now, at 24, she sounds rather immature and surly, and you two have yourselves to blame for that, because your parentil skills are somewhat lacking.

In light of the update reprinted here from Wowowow, I would strongly suggest that you get yourself into some parenting classes, so that you don't repeat the same mistakes with your two sons.

P.S.: This back-and-forth little tango has been going on for many years, and seems to be an established pattern in the way father and daughter are relating. In the advent that it doesn't work out with her boyfriend and that she comes crawling back, the thing to do then would be to sit all parties down in advance and set up clear demands and expectations for both sides , including a time-line for her to get out.

LW2 -
It never ceases to amaze me how people refuse to follow simple instructions, and demand to have it THEIR way always, even if it means fighting for the right to be wrong.

Showing up to a wedding with a gift when "no gifts please " is clearly specified will only serve to embarass the other guests who had the good manners to respect the happy couple's wishes, and annoy the happy couple who won't like that the other guests are being made to feel cheap. Brilliant result. All this because you're so selfish you don't mind being rude to everybody, including the two people whose day and pleasure it should be, NOT YOURS.

This is not just about you and what you want. But if you REALLY insist, at least have the decency to send some kind of gift certificate by mail to their personal address, so that it remains a private matter between you and them.

P.S.: And Margo is siding with you on this? Blpblpblpblpblp to both of you.

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I don't understand why so many people are piling up on Paula. She's right - if the happy couple are saying " no gifts", it's because they want no gifts, and the right thing to do is keep them happy by respecting their wishes. I can only wonder in what other instance you think "no" really means "yes"...

And yes, I know that technically, even "no gifts" is not supposed to appear on invitations... But frankly, folks, the basis for good manners is that it's supposed to make things easier and more comfortable for the majority. Let's show some common sense here: there didn't use to be so many people marrying repeatedly, and so these things are bound to evolve with changing times. Advising people you don't want or need gifts saves everybody shopping time and money and, for the happy couple, the worry of transporting all these sometimes fragile parcels back from the wedding venue - since too many people do bring them there even though they shouldn't.

@Lisa #8
Question - What's a "short sale"?

#9
I can understand your point, but you will notice you are NOT having a second shower, prcisely because you don't want it to look like a gift grab, even though you could use the gifts.

But a wedding is not a baby shower. A couple getting married requesting "no gifts" should have their wishes respected - even if it's techically incorrect to put that on the invites.

@Carly O #20
"No Gifts" that many people interpret that to mean that the couple wants cash. That is why the invitation should not say anything about gifts."
Then it should say, "No gifts of any kind". which I would hope covers all angles. I think expecting the wedding planners (who are often the ones getting married themselves) to call everyone one by one by one to say in in person is asking a bit much, considering everything else they'll have on their plates.

@Lise -- I'm not a mortgage/real estate expert, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact definition, but a short sale occurs when the person who is selling the house is forced to sell it for far less than what s/he still owed on the property. On the plus side (for the buyer) is they potentially get the property for a deeply discounted price. But because of the rigmarole involved in getting the banks on both sides of the transaction to sign off on such a deal, it can take a VERY long time to close on this kind of deal. When the mortgage bubble burst in the U.S., it touched off a surge in "short sales" and people looking to buy foreclosed properties -- buyers figured they could get properties for a steal. But as is often the case with something that looks like a "great deal," it often came with some strings attached that the buyers hadn't banked on. Because I live in a part of the U.S. that was hit extremely hard by the mortgage bubble, I know a number of people who have been on both sides of these types of deals. They typically take a MINIMUM of six months to close -- the ones I know about all took a year or more to close. One of the other problems that can often come with some of these types of deals is that the property hasn't been taken care of during all of that time. Where I live, if you turn off the A/C for more than a few weeks during our six-month-long summer, you are almost certainly going to have mold growing on and inside the walls and fixing that can be extremely costly. A woman I worked with was hoping to buy a foreclosed property and thereby get a "steal." What she quickly found was that yes, she could find a house that once appraised for $300,000 that would now only cost her maybe $100,000 to buy -- but by the time she did the math to figure out what it was going to cost to mitigate the mold, replace the copper piping, etc., that had been ripped out and sold for scrap, etc., the house was going to cost her close to $300,000 -- and since the house is no longer worth $300,000, that's not exactly a "steal" now is it. People thought all these short sales and foreclosed properties were going to be so great for the buyers, but unless you're in no hurry to actually own and inhabit the property, and unless you are extremely handy yourself or have the money to fix them up, not so much.

@Lise -- just realized you responded to both of my posts. I hear what you (and others) are saying about the whole "no gifts" thing. First of all, one of the things that is tricky about etiquette questions like this is the fact that not everyone is necessarily reading from the same etiquette manual. When I have told people that I am not having another shower, the most common response I get is, "why?" It would seem that even though I was taught you don't get a second shower, there are a lot of people out there who never heard that and think I'm being silly for adhering to a rule they don't believe exists. And these peopler are NOT rude, ignorant boars. So, whose version of etiquette is right? Personally, I would never be offended by receiving an invitation that said "No Gifts, Please" as I would be under the assumption that the person inviting me wished to save me the trouble of going out and getting a gift when all that person really wants is for me to celebrate the moment (whatever it maybe -- birthday, wedding, graduation, etc.) with him/her. But I do know that, according to some etiquette manuals out there, ANY reference to gifts on an invitation is verboten, even when it's to say "no gifts, please." Similarly, I would never be offended by someone giving me a gift even if I had specified "no gifts." Unless this was someone with a history of self-aggrandizement and/or a history of hidden agendas, etc., I would assume that someone giving me a gift, even though I had said, "no gifts, please" was giving me a gift because that person just really wanted to give me something -- an act of friendship, caring and/or love. I'm not a naive idiot -- I am well aware of the fact that some people give gifts with "strings attached" -- they do it to make themselves look better; they do it so the recipient somehow "beholden" to them, etc. That happens, of course. I'd like to think that if these are people I invited to some sort of event, that I invited them because I actually want to celebrate with them (though, obviously, sometimes in the case of family or co-workers, they are invited out of obligation rather than desire) and that I know them well enough to know who is trying to give me a gift out of love and who has a hidden agenda, and there's a way to deal with either of those scenarios with more aplomb than what Paula has said she has had to do.

Plus -- there's a right way and a wrong way to give a gift when you know no gifts are expected. For example, when I gave that couple the Browning poetry, I didn't bring it with me to the event and make a big deal of giving it to them in front of everyone and then ensuring that it be put on display somewhere. I mailed it to them so that it would arrive when they returned from their honeymoon. One of the problems with bringing a gift to an event (especially an event where no gifts were expected), is that you potentially make other guests at the party feel bad for NOT bringing a gift. I was taught you don't go to someone's house empty handed -- so, whether someone has invited just me to their home for a quiet dinner, or whether someone has invited me to their home for a big bash, I always bring some sort of "host/hostess gift" -- but I also try to give it to the host/hostess discreetly rather than make a big deal out of it so as not to make someone else there uncomfortable if they did NOT bring something for the host/hostess. It's pretty easy to do. Not long after I first started telling people I was pregnant again, I had a group of people over for a football party -- very casual, impromptu (sent out an e-mail to a small group of friends -- no actual invitations -- just "hey, let's get together!"). It was a big rivalry game, and we have had people over to watch this game with us before, too. Clearly, NOT a gift-giving event of any sort. It would never have occurred to me to tell people "no gifts, please" because it's just not that kind of event. But one of my friends wanted to give us something for the baby, since she had just recently heard the news. She actually called me a little before the party and asked if it would be OK if she showed up a little early, I said that was fine. When she arrived, she had a beautiful gift basket with stuff for the baby. She came early specifically so that she could give me the gift without anyone else seeing it -- she didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but she also wasn't sure when next she was going to have a chance to see us (she travels a lot for business and pleasure, so she's gone a lot) and wanted to save herself the trouble and cost of shipping it to us.

I find that with etiquette, and in life in general, we will find what we go looking for. If we LOOK for rudeness, we will find it anywhere and everywhere. Again, I'm no Pollyanna -- I'm a big believer in "hoping for the best but expect the worst." But if we at least hold out HOPE for the best, we are in a position to recognize and embrace it when it comes our way -- just as, if we expect the worst, we will be prepared to cope with it when it comes our way. There's a balance there, and it just doesn't have to be that difficult to find.

Re: Lise Brouillette

"I don't understand why so many people are piling up on Paula. She's right - if the happy couple are saying " no gifts", it's because they want no gifts, and the right thing to do is keep them happy by respecting their wishes."

For me, it's because of this remark (back at #4):

"I can tell you that someone who ignores a stated wish like that to an event I have invited themselves to are immediately asked to leave as soon as the gift is seen and makes it onto my do not invite list."

While I agree with most people on here that a "no gifts please" request needs to be honored and that people who are unable to read simple directions is, well, ignorant ... her reaction is really over-the-top. Really ... kicking someone out of a wedding (and then not inviting them to future events) because they made the "send-them-to-hell" crime of bringing a gift to a wedding when they were asked not to is a bit much.

They're not guilty of a felony ... they're guilty of breaking a rule of etiquette ... and she thinks that disinviting someone to a future wedding is a good response to this. Ha!

LW1: Stop making it so comfortable for her to live there. Think outside the box. I'm sure you'll come up with something.