Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - Take and honest look at yourself and your motives for keeping your son at home, and try to imagine how your actions look to your daughter (and the rest of your kids). Here's the letter I think your daughter might have written: "Dear Annie, my mother has always been religious and a little quirky. It didn't used to bother me, but lately she seems "stuck" in her religion in a weird and unhealthy way. She rarely leaves our home, and is home schooling my little brother, preventing him from socializing with other normal kids his age. All of my siblings can see the harm it's doing to him, and agree with me that something strange and unhealthy is going on. We've tried talking with her about it, but she won't listen to us. She's like a broken record about her religion and "God." No matter what we start out talking about, it comes back to that. Frankly, this is another reason I'm worried for my little brother. I miss my mother, the one I used to be able to talk to. When I've tried reaching out to her, she gets defensive and says all the problems are because I'm taking a steroid medication. When I've offered to help clean up her house (which is a mess of junk and clutter), she gets defensive and frankly paranoid, and accuses me of wanting to throw away all of her possessions! I don't know anymore if she's in a religion or a cult. I love her but I don't know what to do."

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final collection of responses on 3 November 2012, which referred to the second letter on 24 September 2012 (Tired in Toutle).

LW1 - This is one of those instances where I'd really like to know what's going on from the daughter's point of view. Like Nowhereman, I'm wondering if there isn't more going on with the LW than she admits and whether some of the problems are of her own making.
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However, since we have to take the LW's statements at face value with nothing else to go on, I'd be inclined to take one of the Annie's suggestions -- talk to her other grown children to see if they have any ideas on what their take on the situation is and what she can do herself to make things better. She doesn't mention her relationship with her other grown children, other than that none of them are happy with her home schooling their younger brother, so there may well be some issues in her home that need to be addressed and she just isn't seeing them.

LW1 - I agree with Kitty and Nowhereman. This is something that I'd really like to hear the daughter's side of the story, too. Nowhereman's letter makes a lot of sense.

As for the steriods, they can cause anger problems. I have been on prednizone a number of times due to asthma and from what I'm told, I am quite the snippy little beeyotch when I'm on them. I don't really recall it but I must be because a number of friends and family tell me this.

It is possible it's the medicaition but it's also possible that your daughter is right. Talk to your other children and see how they feel. See if they agree with your daughter. If they do, it's time to start looking in the mirror.

As for your deepened faith, I think that's great. My faith is important to me, too. But most people do not like God being thrown at them all the time. Like I said, my faith means a lot to me and even I get annoyed when someone is all, "God this," and "God that," for every other sentence out of their mouth. Keep God to yourself.

LW2 - I agree with the Annies.

Reading between the lines: I'd say LW1 has become a hoarder, has left behind healthy religious faith and become an evangelical frootloop, and is probably keeping her son at home for reasons that are neither healthy nor normal. If "Jenny" is reading this letter, I would encourage her to make a call to DCFS.

LW1: in the meantime, hire a service to properly clean out your home (if you are refusing offers of cleaning because you are afraid people are going to throw your stuff away, that is a fairly clear indicator that you are a hoarder), consult a psychiatrist because you sound like you have unhealthy obsessive tendencies, and at least until you are truly mentally well and therefore able to make rational judgement, please send your son to school.

I'm fully in favor of homeschooling, btw. Just not in favor of homeschooling because you are mentally unwell, and definitely not in favor of children being trapped in a home filled with rubbish.

Seriously, Joanna? A woman who is deeply religious and homeschools her child is not breaking any laws or harming her child. She should hire a maid service to keep her home in order, if necessary, but the call to DCFS is unnecessary. I am sick of hearing people talk about socialization in school. Children are in school to learn, NOT to make friends, and just "hang out." Lots of homeschooled kids are plenty socialized. They participate in sports, Boy or Girl scouts, dance, and lots of other activities. And many are taught life skills in addition to the traditional academics of public school. I don't see how this is detrimental to children. Further, unless the LW is seriously neglecting or abusing her son, her parenting decisions are none of the government's, or her daughter's, business.

@Emily, I think Joanna is suggesting that the LW has glossed over some harder, deeper truths, and is whitewashing the situation to make herself look better.

Which, we all have to admit, is a distinct possibility. Not a certainty, of course, but well within the realm of reasonable possibility.

This is definitely one of those situations in which hearing the daughter's version of the story would be enormously helpful.

Re: Emily

I strongly disagree that children are not at school to make friends. Of course that is not the only point of going to school, but it is one of them. Where does the average kid make friends if not at school? That is where most children learn social skills and meet people. I am not saying that homeschooling is detrimental to kids as long as a conscientious effort is made to socialize them. Just that socialization is a big part of regular school, and it is important and should be encouraged (just not during class!)

I agree Nowhereman and Kitty. From my own experience with my own mother it is hard to talk to her cause no matter what she is right unless you hit her on top of the head with mallet. I too wonder what is really going on with the mother and what the daughter may have to say. Is the mother hoarder? Possibly not. My mother isn't and would love to see me get rid of more stuff.

My husband had to take steriods to deal with illness couple of weeks ago and even though he was right or had good ideas, he was just plain hyper and hard to deal with.

I am not fan of home schooling. Yes children are in school to learn but school teaches far more than academics. It teaches how to deal with real life situations and consequences like having assignments done on time, dealing with peers outside of assigned activities like lunch or recess, making friends, following teachers' directions cause it is part of their grade. There is probably more but I don't have time. School is like job that you have to go to every day. It is part of life that is there and school helps put ease children there gently.

LW1--It isn't the steroids that are affecting 'Jenny's' behavior; rather it's the fact that she's a know-it-all little witch wit a capital "B". I don't know whether it's an air of superiority or simple garden variety condescension that entitles your daughter to keep up a running, hyper critical commentary on how you raise your children, keep your house or practice your faith. Regardless, Jenny needs to be told in no uncertain terms that none of these are her concern. Your daughter has chosen to cut off contact for an unspecified amount of time. My advice is to specify that it be permanent pending an attitude adjustment on your daughter's part.

LW2--Um, tell your friend that people are going to know soon enough that she's cutting when she shows up sporting scars up and down her arms or legs that make her resemble a Tasmanian tiger. Either that, or when she fails to turn up at work one of these days because she nicked a major artery and bled out. People who cut themselves do so because they can't handle emotions so they turn to physical pain as a diversion. My advice is to tell everyone who will listen about your friend's unhealthy proclivities in the hopes that they'll bring her to her senses and she gets the help she desperately needs.

LW3--Agreed! There's no need to beat around the bush. When you're tired or your guests have over staid their welcome, ask them to leave.

Re: Emily

Yes....really, Emily. Unfortunately, I'm quite familiar with the type. Just because something is not illegal does not make it safe, healthy or smart. This sounds like a potentially volatile situation. The LW used several key phrases that are alarm bells to anyone familiar with the type. DCFS can assess the situation and determine if the child is at risk. My guess is that the child is.


Chris, got a bunker? Because you sound like one of those people who think abusing children is A-OK, as long as the ebul gubmint doesn't tell you what to do.

I, too, am weary of hearing the old "socialization" argument against home schooling. You know what, folks? There are as many- probably more - incompetent public school teachers as there are parents incompetent to home school. Semi-literate parents who want to keep their kids away from the influence of other ideas are one thing. People like my sister are another.

She has a bachelor's degree in biology and six beautiful, smart kids, all of whom she home-schooled. Five are now adults in successful careers - three finished college and two have masters' degrees - and the last, a seventeen-year old easily was accepted to three colleges. They participated in a theatre group for home schoolers, were part of a book club, and never lacked for friends or "socialization."

It's an individual matter, but I think the fact that some people become wild-eyed at the very idea (the very old, historical idea!) that parents were responsible for their own children's education is just an indication of how much we look to the great government tit to provide all our needs.

And as most of you know, I was a public school teacher for 22 years. I sent my children to the same system where I taught, but would encourage anyone with the intelligence, time, and resources to home-school if they wanted to.

LW1 -- Like others here, I'm wondering what's been left out of your letter and what your daughter and other grown children might have to say about this. Presumably there is a reason you did NOT home school your older kids and that there is a reason you ARE home schooling your youngest. I have a feeling that whatever that reason is, which you have conveniently left out of the letter, may have a LOT to do with what is going on here.

Personally, I cannot imagine home schooling my children, for a whole host of reasons, some of which have to do with me and my own personality and some of which have to do with the value I see in sending children to school. However, one of my biggest issues with home schooling is that I believe that most people are NOT cut out to home school. I mentioned on an earlier thread that I have a friend who is home schooling her son. As it happens, my friend has a masters degree for which she wrote her thesis on children's literature in education. She is uniquely qualified to home school. Moreover, she reached out to other parents who were home schooling to form a cooperative, where they go on field trips together, occasionally teach their children in groups together, etc. These kids absolutely ARE getting out of the house to learn about the world around them and absolutely ARE meeting other kids and getting at least some socialization that way. My friend's son also takes karate and is in a couple of other clubs, as well. Honestly, my friend is just about the paragon of what you need to do in order to home school properly and with good results. And in the meantime, her son is WELL ahead of his peers -- he tests off the charts in all standardized tests.

And for all of that, I wish she wasn't home schooling her son. Not because she isn't doing a good job -- she's doing a phenomenal job. Not because I don't think her son is getting the socialization he needs -- she is doing a great job of seeing to that, as well. The reason I wish she wasn't home schooling her son is that I don't believe it's good FOR HER. Her son appears to be thriving, but I believe he would thrive at school, as well, and in the meantime, she is NOT thriving. Her entire world revolves around him to an unhealthy degree, and I worry about what happens when he grows up (and since he is 13, that time is coming all too soon). She was once a totally amazing, fascinating, vibrant woman. Now, she is narrow, stunted and unhappy.

It sounds like your daughter is concerned about her little brother -- but it may be she's worried about you, too, and just doesn't know what to do about it and is at her wit's end. Please honestly evaluate why you decided to home school this child. Ask your other grown children and perhaps a trusted friend or two what they think of all this.

LW2 -- The Annies wrote: "Some people who cut also suffer from underlying depression or other mental health issues." Gee, you think? Personally, I think ANYONE who cuts oneself is almost certainly suffering from sort of mental health issue, not just some of them. That being the case, your friend needs help -- more help than you can provide. Depending on her age (I'm assuming she's a minor) you can, at the very least, get her into the school counselor (assuming this is a counselor who actually has training as a therapist, not merely an academic counselor). You might also look into support groups -- I just googled "group therapy for cutters" and a whole bunch of resources popped up. Your friend needs expert help, and you are not an expert. But you might be able to help connect her with one. In the end, however, you may well have to tell her parents. You're worried you will lose your friend if you tell her parents -- but far be it to lose her and yet have her still be alive and healthy, than to lose her because she winds up killing herself.

Re: Lisa

I believe that research is showing that home schooled kids are just as well socialized as public school kids. To me, this like male circumcision in that I don't understand why people get so upset about it (not you specifically, but in general). Do it if you want, it probably isn't going to make that much of a difference in the end. Just try not to mess it up.

LW1 -
Let's examine this piece by piece:

"One of them, "Jenny," criticizes home-schooling and then gets into what she considers insufficient socialization."
Well, she's right about that. Children don't only learn academics at schools, they also learn how to relate on a one-to-one basis, how to form friendships and how to behave in a group.

Is there any real good reason why you would keep your son at home, instead of sending him to school where his siblings all went? At the very least, I would suggest you find some activities like sports and music, where he can meet other kids his age, to compensate for the lack of socialisation.

There is also something to be said about standardised learning - that is, if you want your son to be well-prepared for an ever more-demanding work force. What competence do you have to homeschool your son? If all you have to share is what you yourself learned in school in your day, then it's not enough. Not only will the knowledge be far away in your memory, but the world has changed and so has the curriculum. It may have been good enough for you back then, but that was then. This is now.

Unless you are an extremely well-read academic or have a degree in education, AND are proficient enough to teach computer and research techniques, you lack the competence to educate your son and he will be the one paying the price. Look. I agree that public school curricula may leave a lot ot be desired in many cases, but if there are some activities or subjects you feel are not covered enough at school, you may certainly undertake THAT at home. Or enlist your son in Sunday school. Or hire a tutor.

"When she's finished with that topic, she criticizes the condition of our 30-year-old house. Then she says my house is too cluttered, which I admit, but it's fairly well organized, and I regularly donate old clothing and appliances."
If you are detached enough to discard unused item, then you're not a hoarder. If your house is reasonably clean (and I hear no complaint about that in here) and fairly well organised, then it is not unsanitary. Anything else is NONE OF HER BUSINESS, and you do not owe her an explanation nor do you have to ask her permission to own anything.

"Jenny has offered to help me with the clutter, but I suspect that's an excuse to throw away all of my things."
And you could very well be right about that. I haven't had it done to me because I don't let people walk all over me and therefore I never allowed it, but I've seen it done to others. Stick to your guns and DON'T agree to this ever.

"Jenny's latest complaint is that I've "changed" and she can no longer talk to me. We used to be able to talk about everything"
Unless there is plenty you're not telling, it would appear that the most dramatic change occurred with Jenny, not you.

"and now Jenny feels that I bring up God too often."
So don't anymore, since she is apparently so allergic to the notion. But it looks like you can do nothing right anyway, and that she'll just find something else to bitch about.

"But she has decided to cut off communication for an unspecified period of time, saying she "needs space."
She happened to be right about the lack of socialisation for your son, but even a broken clock is right twice a day - she sounds out of line for everything else. It might be better that she gets "her space" - let her find someone one else to harass. Considering she seems to have become a controlling and judgmental person, you need your space too, I think.

There isn't anything you can do about it anyway and, right or wrong, you cannot control what she does. What the Annies said.

All this being stated... When you say your "faith has deepened", added to your daughter's complaint that you talk too much about God, I am wondering if there isn't more to this than you admit, and if this isn't the second time in the day when the broken clock is right. Perhaps what you call "deepening your faith" comes across as fanatical and preachy, and perhaps it does with some justification. Is religion the reason why you decided to homeschool your son?

If that's the case, please be aware that you cannot shield him against the big, bad world for the rest of his life. You would do better instilling a strong faith in him, so that he is able to RESIST whatever influence and temptation you feel he will find at school and elsewhere.

From what you say, it sure *looks* like steroids are making Jenny hostile, controlling and mad at the world - especially at you. But even with what you say, I would have further questions if I had you in front of me. I would be very curious to hear Jenny's side of it...

And where does your husband figure in this? Is HE the reason why your "faith has deepened"? Frankly, the first part of my answer dealt with what this looks like at first, but there are a lot of unanswered questions here.

P.S.: In what form does your daughter take steroids, and for what "occasionally flaring" condition exactly? I have asthma, it "occasiobally flares up" and one of the pumps I have to use as part of my long-term treatment includes steroids. Inhaled steroids don't make people angry or aggressive.

LW2 -
I can understand that your friend is ashamed of doing what she does and doesn't want people who know her to know. If she underage and need parental consent for everything, it might be a problem.

But she cannot get help without disclosing that information. Call a reference line and ask for guidance. Perhaps there is somewhere your friend can go that would be anonymous, in the sense that they don't know her personally. Perhaps she can find a support groups. It's not just scarring that your friend is risking, it's serious infection and, depending on where she's cutting, possibly accidental suicide.

LW3 -
"I don't get why everyone feels they have to give hints to those guests who stay too late."
Because there are a lot of people who seem to think it's rude to tell it like it is. Weird, but true. Frankly, I don't understand it myself.

To me, this like male circumcision in that I don't understand why people get so upset about it (not you specifically, but in general). Do it if you want, it probably isn't going to make that much of a difference in the end. Just try not to mess it up.

AMEN!!! Although, Lisa makes an interesting point about how it affects her friend...

Re: Michelle #4
Prednisone is ingested, which means it gets into the bloodstream, hence the side-effects. Also, please be aware that it causes water retention. Salt-free diet for me when I'm on it, otherwise I blow up like a balloon. Don't know if it makes me hyper, my cats don't seem to mind. ;-D

Going back to the LW's case, she doesn't specify. It's easy to blame steroids, but we're not talking about an athlete here. Inhaled steroids don't involve the same concentrations, nor the same delivery system.

@Joanna #5
"if you are refusing offers of cleaning because you are afraid people are going to throw your stuff away, that is a fairly clear indicator that you are a hoarder"
And THAT is a clear indicator that you yourself live in an Ikea environment, with the strict essential and nothing more, AND that you feel any woman living differently is a nutcase. Look. Yoy're allowed to be a minimalist if that's what works for you, but people don't become hoarders because they own more than you do. And whatever else they own, besides what you feel is useful, doesn't automativally become "rubbish". You haven't seen her home to jump to such conclusions.

As for her being afraid this is an excuse to throw everything she owns in the garbage, well, there are plenty of people who think like you do, and who have no scruples about doing exactly that. Hoarders never discard anything because "they might need it someday". She is not one of them.

@Kath #9
I like your comparison, stating that school is like a job you go to every day. Having worked both in a traditional, paid-by-someone job and on a home-operated self-employed basis, I can testify that it takes a lot more discipline to work from home that it does working in an office. The same applies to home-schooling, and I frankly believe that, while some parents can achieve it well, they are the minority.

Well, speaking of discipline... I have a full day on the road today, I have finished eating, now I gotta go, I'll look at the other comments when I get back!

LW1 - Tell Jenny it's none of her business how you raise your own son. And limit contact with her in the future.

LW2 - Bottom line: If your friend needs help, she has to tell someone else besides you. Annies had good suggestions on who to tell. Beyond that, you can do nothing else for her.

Home schooling can be positive or negative, depending on the situation. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for extremely religious people to home-school in order to shelter their children from other viewpoints (i.e., the sinful world out there), or because they disagree with the science teaching. This represents the dark side of home-schooling. The first letter gives off a strong whiff of that, and there's no mention of anything that might counter it. The clues given *could* support a situation of increasing instability: religious withdrawal, cluttered environment, fixation on other people (daughter's meds) as the problem. No wonder the older child is worried about the youngest. I wonder if "insufficient socialization" is the daughter's well-meaning substitution for blunter words: "Mom, you've become a religious nutcase and you're depriving little brother of an education."

Re: Lisa
"Her son appears to be thriving, but I believe he would thrive at school, as well, and in the meantime, she is NOT thriving. Her entire world revolves around him to an unhealthy degree, and I worry about what happens when he grows up (and since he is 13, that time is coming all too soon). She was once a totally amazing, fascinating, vibrant woman. Now, she is narrow, stunted and unhappy."

Very good point. It take a tremendous amount of effort and dedication to do a good job home schooling. I have a friend (who is a public school teacher btw) and she home schooled her kids for a couple of years. Same thing, the kids thrived but it took a huge toll on her life due to the efforts needed to design a custom curriculum and stay a step ahead of them, etc.

"Personally, I think ANYONE who cuts oneself is almost certainly suffering from sort of mental health issue, not just some of them."

I agree - cutting is a clear sign that the person does indeed have the type of mental health issue that requires help and intervention in all cases.

Re: Lise Brouillette
"And where does your husband figure in this? Is HE the reason why your "faith has deepened"? Frankly, the first part of my answer dealt with what this looks like at first, but there are a lot of unanswered questions here."

Good point. LW1 sounds to me like her change in behavior could definitely stem from a more "religious" spouse. I once worked with a woman whose husband was very "strict" about her observing what he considered tenants of their faith. He forced her to home school the kids, not fraternize with co-workers or accept gifts from them (mostly baby shower gifts since she was frequently pregnant), and monitored her comings and goings in general. Before she hooked up with him she was a different person entirely. I always thought he was jealous that she had a better job than he did and made more money. I'm sure he wanted to keep her at home barefoot and pregnant but couldn't bring himself to give up the income and resented her for it.

LW3
As a person whose bluntness has admittedly offended on more than one occasion. I have to agree. I have no problem letting people know the evening has come to a close in a direct manner. My friends do know that they are welcome to stay if they want to though (if they are watching or movie or are just comfortably engaged in something or just like being in my house for a bit and don't want to leave). I have just gone off to bed on more than one occasion and left folks I'm comfortable with to either a spur of the moment sleep over in a guest room or hang to out on their own for a while and then head home - with no offense taken.

To the posters who are defending home schooling, sure, when a mentally stable, intelligent person home schools, it can be wonderful. But this is not the case here, it seems. This woman is around the bend religious, her personality has changed, and her house is disorganised and full of junk. Her daughter thinks she is keeping the youngest son in this house, away from social interactions. So he is not going on educational field trips with other home schooled kids, or participating in scouts or sports. Add to the mix that the daughter is on some medicine that is making her snippy, so all of her concerns come across to Mama as criticisms. Plus, Mama throws God into every conversation, which is getting on daughter's last nerve. I wonder, where is the boy's father in all this? Sounds like Mama needs to get her head examined, and daughter needs to have her meds changed. Maybe the other siblings could help sort out this mess, before youngest brother becomes a victim of his mother's mental decline.

Re LW2:
I do believe a few really valid reasons exist for home-schooling (child with special needs/huge IQ/experiencing bullying, that a school can't or won't address) and some few parents exist who can do a more than adequate job of home-schooling, especially in states which provide a curriculum and mandatory testing.
However, home-schooling beyond the elementary school years, in my opinion as a mom and a licensed teacher (who's never taught full-time beyond substituting and huge amounts of tutoring), can lead to huge gaps in a student's knowledge, work skills, and social skills. While on active duty, I worked for a while in military recruiting advertising and found the military in general lumps in home-schooled (through high school) students along with those with GEDs, and has a very small maximum number it will accept....on the order of 2.5% about a decade ago. What the schools produce, home-school parents generally don't, and employers expect, is someone who will listen to someone other than mommy and can sit in one place and concentrate on their jobs all day long. Recruits who were home-schooled through high school "wash out" of basic training at an extremely high rate, presumably for those reasons.
Finally, and this is one most people don't think of: while many or maybe most home schoolers provide outside socialization activities, it can totally happen that home-schooled children never are seen by anyone other than their parents. Teachers in every state are required by law to report suspected child abuse. It's incredibly rare, I'm the first to admit, but an abused "home-schooled" child who never sees anyone else is in a desperate, hopeless situation. My local paper today had a story about a 15-year-old boy who was imprisoned in one room, tortured, and sexually abused for FOUR YEARS, and no one knew because he wasn't registered in the local schools.
I'm certainly not accusing home-schoolers of abusing their children...just reminding everyone of a hidden benefit of regular schooling that may have saved countless lives.

Re: Lise B

You say "You haven't seen her home to jump to such conclusions" to Joanna, and yet I could say the same thing to you regarding your assumptions about Joanna's home being sterile/minimalist. She IS correct that that is a sign of a possible hoarder. I don't think we can assume she IS one based on her letter, however we have no indication that she ISN'T one, either. If the daughter is commenting on the state of the home - mess and condition - and the LW fears her belongings will be thrown away, it is a possibility.

Re: EstherGreenwood

Although I agree that cutting is almost always indicative of mental illness, I don't think all cases require intervention. I have done it before, barely breaking the skin or not even, as a means of coping with something too stressful. Maybe once a year or two something like that happens? I think in some cases it is indicative of poor coping mechanism and not necessarily mental illness, and often I will alternatively turn to cigarettes or alcohol to assuage stress. What can I say... it works.. luckily my life is not particularly stressful!

LW1 - My first thought when I read the letter was that the daughter is jealous of the extra attention her young half-sibling is getting. But I really don't know.

@Zoe -- I think people get upset about this because for every person out there like my friend, who really IS incredibly well-qualified to home school her child and who really IS doing everything she needs to do to ensure that he is well-socialized as well as well-educated, there's at least one (and probably more) who are NOT. The flipside in my own experience: you remember my evil BIL, right? Well, the woman with whom he had three children that neither of them wanted decided she was going to home school two of her four children (she had three with evil BIL, but she had one with some other guy before she met evil BIL -- which is why I laughed out loud when evil BIL said she told him she couldn't get pregnant, so that's why he didn't wear condom, but I digress...) She was home schooling the eldest (the one my evil BIL did not father, as it happens) because he's got massive behavioral issues and has been kicked out of every school she's put him in. The other one was the first daughter she had with evil BIL. She was home schooling her because the daughter has RA, and between the doctors' appointments, the chemo, etc., she was out of school more than in school. Makes sense, right?

Well, sure it does, except that her RA was quickly under control once they diagnosed her, and she was soon in a position to go back to school, but the mother just figured she'd keep her home anyway. And even that would be fine, except for the part where the mother barely graduated high school, and her version of "home schooling" is she found an online curriculum where she just puts the kid in front of the computer and says "have at it." The online curriculum is supposed to be a GUIDE for parents who are home schooling and can serve as a way to ENRICH what the parent is doing. It is not supposed to be the only thing the kids are getting. When Evil BIL finally put his foot down and insisted she go back to school, she was more than a full year behind her peers and had to be held back.

In addition to her general education improving -- her general well-being and attitude has improved as well. And wasn't I just all shock and amazement when that happened?

Again, there are people who are doing a great job of home schooling their kids. Unfortunately, there are at least just as many who are not. I only personally know of these two cases -- my friend, who is doing a truly stellar job with her son, and the mother of my Evil BIL's children, who does a truly stellar job of painting her nails while her kids play online. And the irony is that even in the case of my friend, who really is going a great job -- I am greatly concerned about HER well-being, even though I think her son is doing terrific. I'm not suggesting that all parents who do a good job of home schooling are at risk of suffering as I believe my friend is, but it does reinforce my belief that it takes a very special person to successfully home school, and I'm just not sure the majority of home schoolers have what it takes. To the ones who do -- fantastic and congratulations! To the ones who don't -- please seriously consider whether you're doing more harm than good.

@Patty Bear -- even though I am one of the people who has suggested that it takes a special person to successfully home school and has admitted to not being so sure that most of the people who do home school really do have what it takes to do it right, we really just don't know if the LW does or doesn't. And while I am also one who frequently questions just how reliable of a source some of our LWs are and absolutely DO wonder what this particular LW may be leaving out, I'm not prepared to suggest that she's definitely crazy, definitely a hoarder, definitely a religious fanatic. She may be all, one or some of these things. On the other hand, she may be what she makes herself out to be -- a woman whose faith has deepened over the years, whose house tends toward clutter, and has chosen to home school her youngest child. So, I question the LW on all of this stuff, but I'm not convinced one way or the other.

Re: Lisa

Sure, there are terrible homeschooling parents, and terrible teachers also. What I am getting at, though, is that studies don't seem to show any significant difference between adults who were home schooled and adults who went to a normal school (if anything the studies show that home schooled kids as adults are marginally more involved in their communities).

If you can find something that says the opposite by all means, I'd love to read it. I'd love to hate on smug parents and their awkward, home schooled brats (being facetious here), but I just haven't found anything to back me up. It really seems to be six in one / half dozen in the other.

I *get* what you are saying, but if it makes no real difference in the end, then why get upset about it or even care?

Oh, and when I say I "often" turn to booze / alcohol to cope with stress I am still talking about 1-2 / year here. Not weekly or anything. I just did it the other day though! I have eight kittens at home, with their mother (I am fostering them all). The mother is very skinny and not feeling great (full of worms no doubt) and after a few days stopped caring for the kittens. They would not shut up for hours. I had feed them all, peed, pood them, they are still HOWLING and mom is on the windowsill to get as far away from them as possible. Hah, I smoked a cigarette that night, let me tell you. Fast forward a week or so and they are doing great now - almost 4 weeks old. Can't wait till they are weaned and litter trained though.

@Zoe
You're right, mild self-destructive behavior can sometimes be a reaction to stress and is not necessarily mental illness. Like you I know this first hand as I flirted with bulimia a bit in my teens and managed to stop with no intervention or treatment. Haven't thought about that in a long time but it was definitely a poor reaction to stress (not solely dieting or weight loss related) and not a significant illness in need of treatment in my case.

@Zoe (23) -- well, you called Esther Greenwood out, but as Esther was agreeing with me (regarding cutting being a pretty safe bet that the person needs help), I want to respond to this, too. Honestly, if you have ever resorted to cutting and felt like that somehow helped you, I am concerned for you. There is a GIANT difference between, having a glass of wine with dinner to unwind at the end of a stressful day, and actually becoming dependent on alcohol. If someone is to the point of actually being dependent on alcohol to "self-medicate" for stress because s/he simply has not other coping skills, that person needs help. Seriously. Because that dependency on alcohol is self-destructive, and when one becomes self-destrutive, that person needs help. I can think of few things that are patently self-destructive, in a nearly black-and-white manner, as cutting oneself. Occasionally unwinding from a difficult day with a beer? Probably not self-destructive. Taking a knife to oneself as a stress reliever? How is that NOT self-destructive? How is that NOT indicative of someone who needs help?

Even though we don't always agree, I generally find you to be a witty and thoughtful person and frequently find something of value in your posts. So, this is not coming from someone who is often or generally critical of you or at odds with you. I'm just saying, if your coping skills are such that cutting seems like a perfectly sane (and effective!) means of dealing with stress, then I think you may, in fact, need help.

@EstherGreenwood -- we must have been typing at the same time! First, I am glad that you managed to stop your flirtation with bulimia on your own with no intervention or treatment. But if we had a LW who said, "my friend has bulimia, but she doesn't want her parents to know..." I'd be saying the same thing I said to today's LW -- she needs help you are not in a position to provide, but perhaps you can help her get the help she needs. I would not say, "well, wait and see -- she might be able to resolve this herself, and then if she doesn't, THEN she needs help." I do realize that sometimes people experiment with a variety of self-destructive behaviors, then "come to their senses" and stop doing it without any sort of treatment or intervention. But I would argue that more often than not, these are things that shouldn't be left alone in the hope that it's just a "youthful flirtation" that the person is going to grow out of or otherwise resolve on his/her own.

Re: Lisa

Re the cutting thing - I don't actually take a knife to myself. I typically just jab myself in the forearm with whatever is within reach (sometimes my fingernails). Doesn't bleed, no scars.

I guess it's similar to the home schooling vs public school thing in a way - in that if 364.5 days of the year I'm a normal, non-hurting-myself person, is it really a big deal if I jab myself with a fork one time and don't leave a scar and I feel better afterward? And would I be a noticeably healthier, happier person if that one time I did that I just, I don't know, did breathing exercise or ate a tub of ice cream or whatever normal people do when they are super stressed? Like would it really be worth the time to call a psychiatrist and go to appointments just to fix that?

LW1: I'm sorry, but everyone on the TV show Hoarders always worry that people want to throw all their stuff away. I have to imagine that your house may resemble those featured on the TV show Clean House at the very least. If that is the case, some de-cluttering would be necessary. Even the most organized person could have boxes stacked high full of "stuff" that could topple over and hurt someone.
One of my friends could be on Clean House. She never has friends over because there is no place to sit! I feel bad that she lives like that, but that is her choice and if she needs help cleaning, I am there. It would involve throwing stuff out which is hard to do for someone else.

Re: @Zoe #31
Like @Lisa I admire your wit and style and can often see your side of things. IMHO I have to say though that in this case I honestly do think you should examine this cutting or whatever you want to call if behavior. It really does sound pretty unhealthy and like something you would want to curb. Not saying you need a psych evaluation or anything, but what you describe sounds like an unaddressed issue, a cry from your subconscious for help/attention so to speak, and clearly something to look into.

@Zoe -- I don't know, I really don't. A one-time thing almost certainly doesn't call for intervention, and maybe a once-a-year thing doesn't, either. I have been known to "hit things" (inanimate things -- like slamming down the phone, hitting the computer or the keyboard, and such, not people or animals!!) when I'm angry, and while it's not the best of coping methods, I wouldn't suggest I require therapy for it. So, I do see your point. But I still think there's a difference between a not-so-great coping method that quite literally doesn't hurt anyone (well, I did bruise the palm of my hand once when I slammed it on a countertop just a bit too hard, but I wasn't TRYING to hurt myself) and a not-so-great coping method that actually does involve hurting oneself. Even the bit about "normal" people eating a tub of ice cream... if that becomes someone's go-to coping method, that CAN become a self-destructive behavior that may require some sort of intervention and/or therapy. In any event, while I can see the point you're trying to make, I would say (as you have also said in a previous post) that more often than not, cutting IS a sign of someone needing help. And since it sounds like what the LW is talking about is not merely a one-time thing or even a once-a-year thing, I would say this case definitely calls for some sort of intervention.

Re: Esther

It happens so infrequently, I do not think I could curb it anymore even if I wanted to! Honestly I think you are looking too deep into this. It's no more a cry for help from my subconscious than any other coping mechanism that is "bad" (over eating, drinking, etc). It's like if someone was bulimic once a year because they just ate too much and felt like hell so they puked everything up. If they told me, I'd be concerned for sure, and I wouldn't be all "oh that's great good for you!" BUT really the damage they are doing is negligible.

Re: Lisa

But see, slamming things or hitting things, probably does the exact same thing for you as "cutting" does for me. You're externalizing your anger/frustration, and I'm internalizing it. Functionally, and cumulatively, I don't think there is any difference between us unless you turn to hitting people or animals in anger, or I turn to cutting myself regularly.

I'm not arguing since I think we've reached a shaky agreement. I agree that most cases need intervention, especially involving younger people.

Re: @LIsa #30
I wholeheartedly agree that in most cases these types of self-destructive behaviors should be professionally addressed and intervention and treatment is warranted! Sure sounds like this is the case in L1.

Re: @LIsa #30
Oops...meant L2!

LW1: Instead of the argument over whether homeschooling is good or bad, lets meet in the middle. I've known people who have homeschooled their kids and they did an incredible job with it. Their kids got the one on one attention that you just can't get at private school. Instead of PE, their kids became black belts at karate. And the parents provided enough outside activities to allow their kids to socialize and have friends.

Then I have seen parents who seem to think that homeschooling means that their kid stays home all day with them and isn't bothered with silly things like academics or meeting other kids. Some people do make homeschooling look like awesomeness. Others make make it look like borderline abuse.

This is one of those letters where we really don't know which one we're seeing here. Has the LW gotten to the point where she's finally able to give her son a good education at home? Or is she a crazy lady who has decided to keep him home because her religion says he'll go to hell if he socializes with public school kids? And remember that people have different ideas of what constitutes clutter.

My advice to her would be to take a really good look at herself and her motivations. Is her son learning everything he should be learning? Is he seeing other children enough and being allowed to experience social situations? The things she's afraid her daughter will throw away: does she actually use them or are they sitting in piles around her house? If she really thinks she's doing everything right, then she should tell her daughter that her advice is unappreciated. And stick with it. Let the daughter visit, but the moment the conversation turns into criticism, end the visit. Do it every time. And if there is a possibility she may be right, find an unbiased person to talk to.

At the same time, if you really miss conversations with your daughter, you could probably tune down the God talk a little bit. I think faith is a beautiful thing, but what seems like devotion to you may seem like a lecture to her. I'm not saying hide who you are or cut out God talks altogether. But it sounds like she wants to talk to her mother rather than a preacher.

@Datura -- well said! In one of my earliest posts today, one of the things I said was that the LW doesn't say why she did NOT home school her oldest children and then whey she DID choose to home school her youngest, and I suggested that whatever the reason was for those different decisions may well be key to what's really going on here. Similarly, with the daughter complaining about the clutter -- why does she think that her daughter is just looking for an excuse to throw out all her things? I mean, yes, a neatnik may well have a burning desire to throw a few things away when in a clutter bug's environment -- but generally speaking, they're not looking for an excuse to literally throw everything away. I tend toward clutter. My MIL loves order. When she was staying at our house recently to help out with my son while my husband was traveling on a business trip, she went on a declutter fest (with my blessing). She threw a LOT of stuff out, including some stuff she probably shouldn't have -- there's a reason I haven't been able to find my sunglasses case, or the dustpan (!) ever since. But she also had these baskets where she put stuff that she wasn't sure if she should throw out and/or wasn't sure where to put them away. The point is, she wasn't just itching to "throw all my stuff away." Either the LW is a tad odd to be thinking this way, or, if she's RIGHT that this is what her daughter is thinking, then her daughter is a tad odd to be thinking that way! It's just one of the red flags in the letter that makes me wonder if the LW has been totally honest -- both with herself and in her letter -- about what is going on here.

Earlier today, someone (I think it may have been Chris?) suggested that the daughter is the one who has changed, and not the mother. That is, of course, possible. The fact is, each of us is, to one degree or another, is in a constant state of growth and change (or, if we're healthy, we are!). But it seems silly to me suggest that the mother has NOT changed while the daughter has, as we have ample evidence that the mother HAS changed. She remarried, either after becoming a widow or going through a divorce and had another child -- all of those things will change a person. Moreover, by the mother's account, she has, if nothing else, changed her mind about sending kids to school versus home schooling (though we don't know for sure if that has something to do with this child, versus a general change of philosophy), and her faith has "deepened" -- which also represents a change. So, the LW provides us with ample evidence that SHE has changed, but no evidence that her daughter has (though, certainly, I'm sure the daughter has changed over the years, as well). When the LW says she's still the same mother she's always been, albeit older, that belies the fact that she actually is not really "just the same as always" -- another potential red flag that the LW hasn't taken an honest look at herself, her motivations and the situation with her daughter.

And, though you didn't bring this up, it's something I meant to address earlier -- the bit about the steroids. I know that certain types of steroidal therapy can make a person more difficult, so yes, it's possible that the steroids are playing a role here, but I really think that's a red herring. Jenny has apparently had this malady for quite some time, which means she likely has been on and off the steroids a number of times without her suddenly becoming critical of her mother's decisions regarding home schooling, religion and tendency toward clutter. Now, as is true with any medication, it can affect a person differently each time she takes it, so I'm not ruling out the steroids entirely, but I really think the mother may very well be grasping at straws trying to make this be about something to do with Jenny, rather than taking a hard look at herself, her motivations/decisions and her situation.

@Zoe -- honestly not trying to argue, because with respect to the actual letter we're both responding to, we do agree. But I do want to note that I do think there is a relatively important difference between what you're doing when you cut yourself and what I'm doing when I hit things. It's not just a matter of internalizing versus externalizing -- though that is definitely true, too. But one of these behaviors is not an attempt to hurt or destroy anything or anyone, while one of these behaviors IS about hurting someone (it just happens to be hurting oneself, as opposed to hurting someone else or something else). While you are causing yourself to bleed, and you aren't causing any scars -- it's still got to hurt a bit, right? And presumably it wouldn't "work" if it didn't hurt, right? So, apparently the pain is part of the whole point of the exercise. I just think there's a fundamental difference in there somewhere.

But I will also say that what you describe doesn't sound like what I typically think of when I hear someone is cutting. So I'm also going to say that while I think that what I typically hear about/think about when I hear about cutting really is a clear a sign of someone in trouble who needs help, I'll also say that what you are doing may well not be (unless it escalates, either in intensity or frequency), as it is not totally the same (and certainly not on a par with) as what I'm ASSUMING the LW meant by her friend engaging in "self-harm" and "cutting."

DOH -- typo alert! That was supposed to be "while you are NOT causing yourself to bleed..."

Re: Maggie Lawrence #12
Your sister sounds like a remarkable human being. But I hope that you realise that she is indeed remarkable - as in, exceptional. Most parents don't have these kinds of credentials, and I believe that the ones wanting to home-school their children rarely do so for the right reasons, such as the ones listed by Ginger.

@Lisa #13
"Gee, you think? Personally, I think ANYONE who cuts oneself is almost certainly suffering from sort of mental health issue, not just some of them. "
My sentiment exactly.

@Zoe #23
As I stated in my post, the indicator that she is not a hoarder comes from the fact that she is capable of donating unused items of clothing and appliances. Most hoarders can't discard anything, not even genuine trash like empty toilet paper rollers, because they feel "they might need it someday".

Sorry if you think I committed the same sin, and perhaps I was mistaken, but I have seen people like her, always ready to call a woman a hoarder the minute she owns anything more than her underwear and a toothbrush. Remember my long dissertation on the subject recently? I can assure you that my father and stepmother were absolutely convinced that I suffer from a mental illness because my livelihood is space-consuming. They would have absolutely lo-o-o-o-oved to throw everything I own in the garbage.

And before you or anyone else accuse me of projecting my own circumstances, let me remind you that, in that recent thread, I also mentioned that the women I know who do the same thing I do all experience the same sh!t trip. Even some who DON'T do what I do for a living. And the most vociferous critics are always the minimalists, so yeah, I did put two and two together.

@Datura #38
"And remember that people have different ideas of what constitutes clutter."
In general, more than what they themselves own, and anything they personally have no use for. ;-D

Re: Lise B

I never accused you if that, never have and never planned to. My point was that you can't tell one person not to make assumptions about lw's household while making assumptions about theirs (and presenting it as fact). I'm not saying she is a hoarder, your reasoning makes sense, but I'm also not ready to completely discount the possibility based on one statement in a short letter by someone who would has vested interest in defending themselves.

Re: Lisa

Sure, it hurts. Less than waxing though. Is it worse to wax? What if I waxed when I was stressed. And what if go running to the point my legs hurt when I was stressed? In all seriousness - I cause about as much pain as if you clenched your fist tight so your nails dug into your palms. Or if you bit your lip hard but not in any danger of biting through.

Re: Zoe
Oh, I'm not discounting the other side of the story either, as testifies the second half of my post. Seems to me there are a lot of unanswered questions here, namely regarding the reason she decided the home-school, just how religious is she and the role of her husband in all this. Not to mention that I find her a little quick to blame Jenny's alleged rantings on steroids - not all steroid-laced medications cause that kind of side-effect.

I was using the word "accuse" lightly and not in the full sense of the word... Sorry about that. I'm very tired, after a full day on the road with very poor results, and didn't catch that when I re-read once before I posted. Another instance where intonation, facial expression and body language make a difference! ;-D

LW # 1 Since you admit your faith has deepened, then you must admit you have changed. My MIL "got religious" late in life and then decided to tell the rest of us how we were going to h@LL all the time. Finally, one son had to tell her to tone it down. This from a woman that never once bothered to take her children to church or Sunday school while they were under 18 and under her roof. She is now tolerable (I believe in God but don't believe I have to blab my feelings to everyone I meet.) I think you daughter may feel a little resentful of the time you now have to home-school this children and may not of had the same opportunity when she was younger. Try to be a little more sensitive to her concerns. She does have some points that home schooling requires socialization outside of the home. Perhaps let her help with the house clutter and if she goes too far, then stop her. I and my lady friends too wanted to help our mothers clean up clutter as they age but most have learned that everyone has their own clutter and want it left alone.... so unless you are getting into the "hoarder" mentality, then your daughter should just let it go. Let her have 3 - 6 months and then give her a call like nothing happened and see if you can re-build your relationship.

sounds like your other daughter is upset that you are not homeschooling, but indoctrinating your son. If you were properly homeschooling, with subjects in all areas including science, it would be a different story. Are you qualified to homeschool or are you just teaching the child to read? If you bring up God too often, that clearly shows that you're not sending him to public school because you are anti-evolution and think public schools don't have enough God in them. I think your son deserves to go to public school like everyone else and have friends in school.