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Son of Divorced Parents Is Holding a Grudge
Dear Annie: My 27-year-old son, "Scott," is married with one child. Twelve years ago, Scott's mother and I divorced, and I think he is still angry about it. My ex-wife and I have both remarried, but Scott wants little to do with either of us.
Scott rarely visits. If we want to see our grandson, we have to go to his place. They did show up for Christmas and were terribly cold to everyone. They didn't even let my wife hold the baby, which broke her heart.
Last week, we ran into Scott near his job. He looked as if he hadn't shaved in weeks. My wife gave him $20, and when I saw his car in the parking lot, I wrote on the dirty door, "Haircut?" Three hours later, I got a text calling me every name in the book and claiming I scratched his car. I did no such thing. He insisted the reason we don't speak is because I make bad decisions.
I've had it with Mr. Ungrateful. I thought when Scott became a father he would understand what we went through to give him what he needed. He was the best kid growing up, funny and happy. Now he hates me, and I'm not too happy with him, either. But I have a grandson I want to see. Now what? — Sad Dad in N.H.
Dear Dad: Some kids never get over a divorce. Scott could have benefited from counseling (he still could), but no one addressed his particular issues at the time, and so they festered. We agree that your son seems difficult and hypersensitive. And knowing that, it was not a wise move to criticize him publicly by writing on his dirty car. You need to apologize to Scott for that. If you want the relationship to improve, please try not to provoke him, even unintentionally. Ask him sincerely to let you know when you upset him so you can rectify it to the best of your ability. A conciliatory gesture on your part may allow things to get better.
Dear Annie: You printed a letter from "Venting," a 20-year-old man who wants to know how to meet people, especially girls, because he is too young to drink. He doesn't sound very interesting, just wanting to dance at a club or hang out. Volunteering in an ongoing activity with committed, purposeful people would be a much better way to go. I suggest his local hospital or Habitat for Humanity. — Boston
Dear B.: Those are excellent suggestions, but when you are 20, dancing at clubs and hanging out is often what friends do. Here are a few more ideas: From Florida: He should look in his area for dance clubs. If you don't know how to do certain dances, there are people in the clubs who give lessons.
Chicago: Please tell "Venting" that he should join a community chorus or church choir. Choruses are always short of men, and he will be welcomed with open arms, whether he has a good voice or not, whether he can read music or not. Whatever he needs to learn, a sympathetic chorus member could teach him, or he could take voice lessons. I have made tons of friends and met my husband through music.
Saskatoon: If a man of any age wants to meet women, the best plan is to take ballroom dance classes. Not only will he have several women waiting to take their turn dancing with him, but women will swoon over him for the rest of his life. A woman who wants to meet men should take golf lessons and then hang out at the range. She also should learn to like golf. Otherwise, after the wedding, she'll never see him again because he'll be at the golf course.
Annie's Snippet for St. Patrick's Day: An Irish blessing: May your blessings outnumber the shamrocks that grow, and may trouble avoid you wherever you go.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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Comments
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47 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1, I think your son is correct. You see a 27 year old adult man, married with child, and with a dirty car, and write a note on the outside of the car. Do you usually go through parking lots writing notes on dirty cars? Then do NOT do it with your son. Being his father gives you no right to show him any less respect than you show other adult men. That is why he changed when he became an adult man, you kept treating him as a misbehaving teenager. In addition your behavior even for a father of a teenager was out of line. Writing on a car is so childish, and deeply disrespectful. Everything about your behavior to him is so deserving of contempt from him. He is utterly correct to dislike you and to exclude you from his life. Get some counseling from a competent family counselor, and then tell your son you are deeply sorry for your wretched bad behavior and that you are trying to change.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Nick
Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:19 PM
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LW2 kind of hit the nail on the head with "He doesn't sound very interesting", but then makes the same mistake of the rest of the letter writers, by giving specific examples of what to do.
The thing is, you have to find your OWN passion - art, hiking, helping homeless animals, what have you; and be present there. Otherwise you could spend months or years going to bars until you find someone who is really compatible - or not even bothering; it seems to me alot of people get into relationships with someone who's simply cute and has vaguely similar values, period. Then they have a generic relationship going to the movies, out to dinner, maybe get married, then the husband is off with the guys watching football while the wife plays bridge with the other housewives. To each his own I guess (but that's a recurring nightmare of mine...)
Comment: #2
Posted by: Steve C
Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:19 PM
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* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *
LW2 and beyond refer to the second letter on 11 February 2013.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:58 PM
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LW1 - I'm more inclined to agree with Nick than with the toned-down version of basically the same advice from the Annies. The LW is acting like a teenager, and not a very nice one at that. He wrote in the dirt on his son's car - REALLY?! How juvelile is that? I don't blame Scott for being angry.
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Scott's parents divorced when Scott was 15, which is a very vulnerable time for young people, and I don't see that either he or his wife did much of anything to help Scott deal with the situation. He owes Scott a BIG apology for his actions, both during the divorce and currently.
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It's all "me, me, me" with the LW, with no thought of how the divorce may have affected his son. He says Scott wants nothing to do with "either of us", and I'm not sure if he means either of his parents, or the LW and his new wife, but it doesn't sound as though either of his parents did much to help their son through a traumatic time in his life.
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He should first apologize to Scott and then offer to make amends for his actions, and offer to go to counseling with him to help them all get though their anger and hopefully renew their relationship.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Kitty
Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:39 AM
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LW2 - The suggestions offered by all the letters are OK only if the person is interested in those particular activities. It does no good to join groups simply for the purpose of meeting people unless the group or activity is something he or she enjoys and wants to be involved in. The original LW (or anyone else wanting to meet people with like interests) should find a group or activity that they themselves enjoy and want to continue with. What good is meeting people if you don't share their interests?
Comment: #5
Posted by: Kitty
Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:43 AM
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Steve, I don't know ANYONE who plays bridge, but I do agree with you on most of the other stuff in your post.
LW1: I think the thing that hit me the hardest about your post is your absolute disgust for your son. The divorce may or may not have anything to do with why he dislikes you so much: did that occur to you? And if you are negative with HIM, why do you think he'd want you aroung his own son?
My advice to you is to apologize, yes, but truthfully try to get to UNDERSTAND your son. Otherwise, he will limit access to your grandson. I would. Anyone who would treat me the way you describe your latest contact with your son would NOT be allowed to hold my baby or spend anytime unsupervised.
Comment: #6
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:46 AM
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Re: nanchan
I also thought that the LW's attitude towards his son may have started long before the divorce. Good point.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Kitty
Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:01 AM
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Avoiding unintentionally provoking someone, especially someone like Scott, who seems to have a chip on his shoulder, is often easier said than done. I'm not sure that advice is helpful.
Since Dad cannot control Scott, he should look inward and into the past to determine if how the divorce or post-divorce time was handled by himself and his ex-wife lead Scott to resent the two of them. A bitter divorce with both parties sniping at each other at the expense of the child can carry negative emotions well into the future.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Wordsworth
Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:22 AM
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Thanks, Kitty. I also agree with your point about how the divorce would have affected Scott.
It's been my observation that divorce hits teens a lot harder than people think. At just the time in their lives when they most need stability and strength from their parents, kids who's parents divorce when they are in their teens find the rug pulled right out from under them. I saw this in my family: I was eight when my parents divorced and all I cared about was that the fighting stopped. But my sisters, who were in their teens, were VERY affected. A few years ago, one of my sisters put it best. "I was forced to stop being a child because our parents were acting like children." My older siblings basically had to step in and raise the younger ones because our parents were so distracted by the drama of their divorce and THEM THEM THEM that we barely existed.
IF the LW is reading, I hope he will do what my father ended up doing (YEARS after the divorce). I went to live with him for a short time, but things were pretty tense for awhile until one night Dad just said "nanchan, get as angry at me as you want to. I deserve it." Of course I didn't. We started talking and by the time I moved out, we were very close. He confided in me many things I never knew, and as an adult, I understood.
The LW needs to own up to his own mistakes, try to understand the drama the divorce (and his ongoing judgemental attitude) has had on his son and his life.
Comment: #9
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:27 AM
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I read yourdaily articles in the Trentonian Newsparer and I have to comment that I & many other readeds find that your responses are 85% of the time the very same; that is...counciling. Beleive me that is a lot of bull. I have been there as has many many others that i have talked to, and counciling rarely if ever helps. Your pat responses have become very tiresome. I'll bet you wont print this; because it's the truth & not a lot of phoony responses that fail to really help the individual who asks for your help.
Comment: #10
Posted by: t.Goehrig
Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:51 AM
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LW1 When parents divorce there has usually been a long period where they fight or stalk around not speaking. Divorce is rarely a complete surprise to the kids. I was relieved, not angry, when my parents finally spit. I was a skinny, nail-chewing nervous wreck from all the tension. Perhaps the ex-wife ran the father down to the teen aged son, so he only has one side of the story. Perhaps Dad could arrange one long conversation with his son, and let his son tell what he believes about the divorce. Don't interrupt, just let him vent. After a silence Dad can apologize for his mistakes, and he has a chance to correct any misconceptions. And declare his love for his son and his desire to be part of his life again.
Comment: #11
Posted by: sarah stravinska
Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:01 AM
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LW1 When parents divorce there has usually been a long period where they fight or stalk around not speaking. Divorce is rarely a complete surprise to the kids. I was relieved, not angry, when my parents finally spit. I was a skinny, nail-chewing nervous wreck from all the tension. Perhaps the ex-wife ran the father down to the teen aged son, so he only has one side of the story. Perhaps Dad could arrange one long conversation with his son, and let his son tell what he believes about the divorce. Don't interrupt, just let him vent. After a silence Dad can apologize for his mistakes, and he has a chance to correct any misconceptions. And declare his love for his son and his desire to be part of his life again.
Comment: #12
Posted by: sarah stravinska
Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:02 AM
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This year is my tenth anniversary for entering college; so not that long ago, and occasionally some 'old fogey' hobbies re-surge as ironic and interesting. I knew several avid bridge players and male knitters, and I was an avid square dancer, so if you decide you're interested, don't rule it out, especially at 20. It's a time in your life where you have free time, and college is one of the easiest places to round up like minded people.
Comment: #13
Posted by: catakit
Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:08 AM
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Just a general question for Annies, and any advice columnist - why do they ALWAYS recommend volunteering as the main way to meet people of the opposite sex? Are volunteer events really the place to go when in need of a hot date? I'd think when volunteering, people aren't thinking about dating as much as they do when they are at a bar or something else. Are there really that many hookups at a volunteer event?
Comment: #14
Posted by: Salty
Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:22 AM
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LW1--Your son is 'Mr. Ungrateful'? Then you must be Mr. Dumbass! Speaking of ass, reach around and pull your head out of yours. Gee, I can't imagine why your son might have distanced himself from his parents; two morons who put themselves before their own child. Then, when you do run into him you judge his appearance and then publicly humiliate him by writing a stupid epitaph in the dust on his car. You do make bad decisions but then your ego won't permit you to accept responsibility for your part in the animosity between you and your son. If you expect to have any sort of relationship with your son and your grandson, then you need to man up, accept that you are partially at fault for nuking your son's childhood. Write your son a heartfelt apology and then leave the ball in his court. If you have to wonder why, then don't bother. Don't be surprised if you don't see your grandson until he graduates high school.
LW2--I don't understand why people don't get that there's no magical formula for meeting people. I would wager that less than 10% is situational and more than 90% is personality. Get a clue.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Chris
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:09 AM
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Re: t.Goehrig (#10):
I don't think I've seen you post here before, so if this is your first time, welcome to the BTL.
Now to your comments:
"I read yourdaily articles in the Trentonian Newsparer and I have to comment that I & many other readeds find that your responses are 85% of the time the very same; that is...counciling. Beleive me that is a lot of bull. I have been there as has many many others that i have talked to, and counciling rarely if ever helps. Your pat responses have become very tiresome. I'll bet you wont print this; because it's the truth & not a lot of phoony responses that fail to really help the individual who asks for your help."
OK, I'll throw this back to you – If counseling doesn't help ... what would you recommend to rectify a given situation, such as what's being described in LW1, and why?
I realize that LW1's son possibly already has gotten counseling ... but have they tried FAMILY COUNSELING? Going beyond the ill-advised decision to write on a dirty car door (to suggest that the son needs to clean up his appearance), there are apparently many issues of ill will and anger between the father and son. BOTH of them need to understand each other and acknowledge they understand each other.
If they don't try to figure out each other real soon – and make no mistake, it takes effort, effort, E-F-F-O-R-T from both sides – then there will be a lifetime of estrangement and going to their graves angry with each other. And that's not what either side is going to want.
I'll close with this remark – The other day, I had spoken about how a major decision in one's life sometimes affects others deeply, even if indirectly. A divorce would be one of those things, especially as far as the children are concerned, and in this case very directly. If the son was deeply upset by his parents splitting up – and let's set aside "who was to blame" – then both the parents needed to band together to help their son understand what was happening and console him. Did that happen here ... or did they say, "Well this doesn't affect you?" or "Toughen up, you ungrateful punk! This is about US, not YOU!" That's what the LW, his ex-wife (if she's reading) and the son need to answer, and why counseling will help at least get the issues on the table.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Bobaloo
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:09 AM
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Re: Salty
Well, I guess they can't recommend bars because..... which bar would they recommend?
Comment: #17
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:12 AM
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Remarks relating to the 20-year-old man trying to get a girlfriend:
I think I may have commented on the original letter, and if I remember my advice correctly, it was to "BE PATIENT!!!!" And "BE YOURSELF!!!!" While all the suggestions are valid, you must be yourself.
And let the chips fall where they may.
An aside: It just seems to me he's got an eye on a particular hottie that's a little older than him (i.e., over 21) and either wants her to notice him and/or wants to start a relationship with her, but has no idea how to get to first base. Which is surely possible with any woman he's too young to try to get to, particularly if the desired girl often goes out on Friday and/or Saturday night and they don't see each other except passing by on campus (because their majors are different), etc.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Bobaloo
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:16 AM
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OK, we've got one actual letter and then a continuation of the ever-present "How do I meet people/find dates?" question that never really gets answered, because there IS no one-size-fits-all answer.
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To meet people-------go find something you like to do, that is open to both genders. I can't suggest anything specific, because I AM NOT YOU AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU LIKE TO DO.
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For LW#1----------you've shown us your character in a nutshell with the writing on the car incident. It gives me insight into why your son doesn't want to be around you, and it obviously goes back way further than the divorce, if you honestly think this was a funny or appropriate thing to do to someone who was already not wanting to be around you. And can you please write back and elaborate on what the "bad decisions" he says you make consist of?
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I expect he is keeping his son away from you because he doesn't want him subjected to the same things he went through, and please understand, you have no 'right' to see a grandson. It depends entirely on your son, whom you seem to have alienated. Karma, maybe??
Comment: #19
Posted by: jennylee
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:18 AM
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Or maybe... LW1s wife was the fling that broke up his parents? I can think of no other reason why the step-mom was not allowed to hold the baby or why the son refuses to visit their home. Not to mention, the LW says the son commented on the father's bad decisions and the LW did not refute the comment. Is it also possible that the LW was not that involved in the last 3 years of son's teenage years and therefore did not see the son's anger? The LW sounds like a narcissist who only sees what is good for him. And I agree with the other posters... writing "haircut?" on the car was extremely childish. While I am very laid back and forgiving, I would be quite hesitant about having any relationship with the LW or his wife.
Comment: #20
Posted by: jajjaaj
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:38 AM
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LW1: You have been divorced for twelve years and you are still having issues with Scott. Then you say he was "the best kid" growing up. Did it ever occur to you that the change in Scott was because of the divorce? You don't indicate which of you initiated the divorce and why, but this could be the root cause of his issues with you. You either wanted out of the marriage for your own reasons (maybe your current wife), or you made things unbearable for his mother and Scott's blaming you for that. Either way, I agree wth many of the posters that you and Scott need family counseling, but before involving anyone else, I suggest you go on your own. You don't seem to be a very introspective or reflective person. As such, I think you need help looking inside yourself and your past actions and see how they affected your ex-wife and son. If you don't do this now, family counseling will be of no value later because I think your basic attitude now is that family counseling is for your ex and son to come around to your point of view. You need to work on yourself first.
LW2: The best way to meet people is to find an activity YOU REALLY LIKE and let romance come as it may. Seeing someone really getting into an activity and enjoying it is attractive. Sitting by, watching others and looking for love is not. If romance doesn't come right away, you at least have the activity to enjoy until it does.
Comment: #21
Posted by: JustWinBaby
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:43 AM
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LW1 -
Your son was 15 when you and your wife divorced. Apart from the fact that you sure don't sound like you paid much attention to his needs then, if he is still holding a sour grudge after 12 years, I think he needs professional help.
However, for you to write something in the dirt of his car and comment about the state of his stub, as if he were still a teenager under your authority, and you acting as if YOU were an immature teenager yourself.... That was beyond juvenile and disrespectful, and yet you seem to thinks that this is perfectly okay for you to do... What else do you do that understandably pisses him off?
Perhaps he's got a point when he claims you make "bad decisions". You had my sympathy until the end of the second paragraph. And then you started gaving perfect examples of the bad decisions you're still making. Not to mention that you sound extremely critical and judgmental of small details (his stub, dirt on his car) that haven't been any of your business for a long time now. It would be in your best interest that you look into this seriously if you don,t want to end up completely cut off.
I suggest family counseling with the both of you present, and I strongly recommend you tell your son you need his input to know what you did wrong if you want him to show up for the sessions. And then you should shut up on your grievances and listen to HIS for the first time in your life. Perhaps with a neutral third party acting as a referee, the two of you can get to the bottom of this. Perhaps. IF you can shut up and listen, and not make it all about you for once.
P.S.: Your son is working. Why would your wife give him 20 bucks? This isn't making sense.
P.P.S.: Has it ever occured to you that the reason he looks like he hasn't shaved in weeks may be because he's growing a beard and that, as a 27 year-old ADULT, he doesn't need your permission? ONE think I think the two of you sorely need to learn, is how to park the copter in the hangar.
LW2 & 3 -
Reruns taking over 2/3 of the column again...
Annies, women canNOT "learn to like" something they detest. This is taking for granted that women are just putty that can be shaped according to wish, and don't come with their own personality, with separate needs and tastes. I notice you didn't tell men they had better "learn to like" dancing. I supposed for them, learning to lie about dancing is good enough as far as you're concerned. You're being SEXIST.
P.S.: "She'll never see him again because he'll be at the golf course"? Not to mention justifiably stinkingly mad and feeling like he's been had, because he'll have married someone under false pretensions. Bad, BAD idea.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:54 AM
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LW1, I think this has less to do with the divorce and more to do with you still trying to parent someone who is now an adult and a parent himself. You need to learn to let go. If he decides not to shave for weeks (I think that's called growing a beard) or lets his car get dirty that's HIS decision and HIS mistake to make. Grown adults are allowed to make their own mistakes, and you were downright rude to write a critical statement about his appearance on his car. How would you like it if someone had written "Failed marriage?" on your car when your divorce was pending? If you wouldn't say or do it to an adult acquaintance, bite your tongue and don't say it to your adult son. Your days of instructing and correcting him ended when he reached the age of majority--the only advice you should be giving him now is if you are ASKED. Stop treating him like a little kid, and you may find he'll start actually being around you more. The great thing about when your kids become adults is that you finally CAN be just their friend.
LW3, I dunno, I really can't picture a 20-year-old boy finding anyone who's interested in him at choir practice or ballroom dancing (other than women who are 40+, at least). Seriously, do 20-year-old women do those things?
Comment: #23
Posted by: Jane
Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:26 AM
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Re: t.Goehrig #10
The reason you got yourself printed with no problem here is because this is the comment section and anyone can comment. But as far as we know, the Annies don't bother to read the comment section (although occasionally a letter writer does), so if you want to address them directly, you should click on "Write the Authors" under the calendar at the top right of the page.
This being stated, although I agree that counselling seems like one of their easy-peasy magic recipes, there are times where it would be beneficial to air grievances to a third, neutral party and I personally recommended it in this case. You will also notice that the Annies are extremely dysfunctional when it comes to counselling, advising it when it's not needed and leaving it unmentioned when it would be highly recommended.
@Salty #14
I cannot speak for the Annies of course, but the reasons *I* would recommend volunteering are:
a) You allegedly will choose an activity you're genuinely interested in, and therefore will enjoy doing, whether you meet someone or not;
b) Unless you're a complete narcissist, doing for others makes you feel good. Feeling good about yourself is the best way to present yourself and to ATTRACT.
c) The people there hopefully will be in the same case, which means if you DO meet, it will be someone with at least one common interest, and who enjoys giving to others, which is a good personality trait for a spouse to have;
d) There is a dire need for volunteers. There are many organisations which cannot function without them.
You don't volunteer specifically to "hook-up" - if you do, trust me, your intentions will be painfully transparent and a complete turn-off. And by the way, the original LWs were interested in a genuine relationship, not just a "hook-up". For that, a bar is good enough, and indeed that is all you will find there. With most of the men being married.
@Chris #15
" I would wager that less than 10% is situational and more than 90% is personality"
Add some percentage for luck in there. Or perhaps fate? Do you know how many different, new people I run into in the course of a year? And yet I'm alone. Oh, men do look at me, but I haven't seen anyone who could even be vaguely compatible in a very long time. And I would put a lot less stock on personality... In the many people I've seen, not all the ones who are mated have an engaging personality, and in fact many of them don't. And meanwhile, I know some very nice people who are alone just like me.
While there are personalities that truly are turn-offs, I would wage it's more like 25% situational, 25% personality and 50% luck.
@JustWinBaby #21
I actually think the LW needs counselling a lot more than his son, but the reason I recommended that his son be there is because otherwise the therapist will never hear the true story. And, frankly, if the LW is self-centred to the point of qualifying as a narcissist, then no counselling will be of any help. You can't make someone grow a heart and, for narcissists, everything is about them, only and always.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:48 AM
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Re: Jane
Excellent response to 1!
re: LW3(?) -My daughter is 20 and IS very active in her college choir (as she was with her high school choir). A close friend of mine met her husband at choir and they still participate in choral groups. But both have told me that straight guys in those groups are the minority, so unless some guy comes right up to you and says "I'm straight" they assume all the guys in the choir are gay.
As for the ballroom dancing? I think that suggestion is WHACKED. Usually those classes are dominated by older people who still listen to that type of music. Or, again, gay men. Straight guys who are 20 years old listen to different music: for them it's like telling them to go pick up chicks at the Old Folk's Home.
My original advice (as was the Annies) was to get into COLLEGE. CC has gotten a whole new set of friends in the last year because of her college experience: she's active in clubs on campus and she has recently become very close to kids in her English classes (her major) because they have to do a lot of projects together.
Comment: #25
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:54 AM
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Re: Jane
OOPS, wanted to add the following WRT ballroom dancing.
CC (again, she's 20, the original LW's demographic) would rather eat glass than go to a ballroom dance class. Her musical tastes are very diverse, and she's very coordinated, but she's also (shock!) not wild about young sweaty guys she barely knows grabbing her in an intimate way (well, unless it's her boyfriend, but you catch my meaning). Honestly, some old chick had to have suggested that. Maybe SHE wants a 20 year old in her own dance club!
Comment: #26
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:00 AM
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Re: Jane
"Seriously, do 20-year-old women do those things?"
Actually, yes. Look at dance competitions on telly. These people are all young, and they've had to train for many years to get to where they are. For one who was that involved, there were many more in their dance classes who did it as a fun way to stay in shape. And it doesn't have to be ballroom, it could be just about any other style, pick the one you like best. The classes were full when I was competing in Irish step-dance, and most of the people were young, some of them VERY young. Same with choir. Last time I was in one, half the choir was in their twenties. A lot of people like singing, and singing in a group is very rewarding. I don't know why you think this is an old folks activity, you actually have much more control over you vocal chords when you're still relatively young! ;-D
Comment: #27
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:00 AM
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Re: nanchan
"so unless some guy comes right up to you and says "I'm straight" they assume all the guys in the choir are gay."
I beg to disagree, and strongly. Not in the choirs *I've* seen, and keep in mind I AM a professionally trained singer. The only males who were gay were the ones who were classical voice students (and even then it's not 100%), who were taking choir as a required course. And that's only valid for the university choir, the ones who are not attached to a an academic institution will be mainly composed of straight men. You're dead wrong.
And btw, as general information to address common stereotypes... Most ballet male dancers are gay, and the few straight males in a ballet troupe will have their pick of a partner. But that doesn't apply to other styles of dance, and it doesn't apply to figure skating, where flamboyant gay skaters like Toller Cranston and Johhny Weir are few and far between.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:12 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
I don't give a RAT'S ASS about you, or your opinions. I wrote about MY DAUGHTER'S feedback. And last I heard, you are a 60 plus year old woman and not 20. CC is 20.
Comment: #29
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:12 AM
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@ nanchan Re: #29
Wow! Is it that time of the month? Now that's a truly Christian attitude you have there. Stop harassing Lise and everyone else who doesn't conform to your narrow-minded view and try a trip to church. Seems like you haven't been in awhile darlin'
Comment: #30
Posted by: Chris
Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:23 AM
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Re the guys in the chorus--------third possibility here: Every male who joined a choir or chorus was indeed gay when he was in his twenties but turned heterosexual as he neared 60?
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(Now, I'm guessing Lise has the advantage here as far as actual experience in mingling with males who sing, for many years, since I'm guessing she sang in a chorus/choir way before she hit 60, and CC hasn't begin to get there yet? )
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Only experience I have in this area is that my husband and I both sang in our high school choir, where we tended to know most of the other singers on a personal basis. I never assumed they were all gay unless they told me otherwise, it seldom came up in conversation. Nor did anyone ever come up to me and say "Hey, I'm straight!!!" Good thing I didn't assume, or I would have missed out on getting to know, and marry, my definitely straight husband. Now, is there some clue I'm missing, so that I could just look at someone and know (not ASSUME, but KNOW) that he is gay? Not that I give a RAT'S ASS, as the saying goes, but just wondering how you make that assumption and convert it to 'fact'.
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(Sore subject with me-------people who assume anything without knowing it to be a fact.)
Comment: #31
Posted by: jennylee
Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:44 AM
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Fourth possibility: French Canadian choirs have a different demographic to those in Seattle.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:20 AM
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Re: nanchan
And what's my age or that of your alledged daughter got to do with anything, pray tell? Me being 61 doesn't make male members of a choir gay.
I argued against what you said politely, sticking to the facts and staying away from personal attacks, but you don't seem capable of doing the same. Well, I'm sorry to say, but you have NO IDEA what you're talking about and yet you think your opinion is Gospel. It isn't.
@Jennylee
I have sang with many choirs, most of them large enough to hire professionals for dress rehearsal to beef up the sections, some of them small ensembles composed only of professionals. One large choir I sang with for a few years before I started training as a professional. I even went on tour in Hungary and Austria with them. The great majority of the men were straight, although never numerous enough... For someone who likes to sing, it is a very good way to meet people.
Especially for men, for unless they're totally tone-deaf, they'll be wecome as there are never too many. You don't need to have a "voice", just the ability to sing in tune and in rhythm (most people can), in fact it is better you DON'T have too much of a voice because, unless you're very well trained, you won't be able to blend in. ;-D
Perhaps I should go back to choir singing... But I don't have much time. The jewellery and toy workshops take a lot more of my time than they should, and I'm trying to create the necessary conditions for me to advance the opera I've been working on.
For people who so much want to meet Mr. or Mrs Right, I can only say that no one has any control over when or if that happens. You can only create favourable conditions:
1. Make sure you're the kind of person you yourself like to be with.
2. Reflect on what kind of person you would like to be with - what qualities you demand, what faults you can tolerate and what constitutes a deal-breaker.
3. Keep yourself active doing things you truly enjoy and where you do meet people, so that you can at least surround yourself with friends.
If you are fated to meet someone to share your life, you will. If you don't have that in your cards, you won't, regardless of the number of people you otherwise meet. I know!
It's much preferable not to make "meeting" the main goal of your life, because it may never happen no matter what you do, so stop trying. Far better to aim at accomplishing something that you value, and to take good care of the relationships you do have on other levels.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:27 AM
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Re: Miss Pasko
If that were the case, Montreal choirs would be even more rife with gay men than many places in America... given that gays can legally marry here and that Montreal serves as a magnet and a safe haven for gays from the the entire eastern portion of the country - both French and English. Very little gay bashing here - last time was years ago. One of the biggest Gay Pride parades in North America. ;-D
Comment: #34
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:33 AM
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Re the parents who divorced and don't know why their son hates them: I used to teach junior high, and let me tell you, some parents revert to the immaturity level of an eight-year-old when they divorce. Their kids are ignored, while they run around trying to find a replacement. The kids often act out, to try to get some attention focused back on themself, but the oblivious parents usually ignore them anyway. Or, if the kids don't act out, they get depressed- they can gain or lose weight, turn to drugs, or start cutting. So sad, and so unneccesary. Occasionally, you will see parents who get family counseling to help them all get through it, or they have a lot of common sense, and they keep communication as a family priority. They do not play head games or use their kid as a pawn. Those lucky kids get through the divorce MUCH better, but I know this: ALL kids pay a price when their parents divorce, no matter HOW much they hide it to please mommy and daddy.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Patty Bear
Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:49 AM
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Re: Jane
Jane is so right! In one short letter, LW1 comes off as self centered, disrespectful, antagonistic and boundary challenged. Criticism, displeasure and a sense of entitlement ooze from every paragraph.
It's possible Scott would love to be on good terms with his father, but is forced to limit contact because it's invariably unpleasant and stressful. Perhaps he "rarely visits" to protect himself and his family from toxic exposure. They may seem "terribly cold" because they are always on guard against the next attack (not cutting his hair, shaving or washing his car often enough to suit Dad has to be the tip of the iceberg). I suspect Scott had a sound reason for asking Grandma not to hold the baby (perhaps he just fell asleep, or she had a cold) and LW1 simply dismissed it.
If Scott is "difficult and hypersensitive" (a snap judgement, in my opinion), perhaps it's because the LW treats his adult son like a sullen, incompetent, willful child.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Logical
Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:52 PM
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Re: Lise Brouillette (#33)
"For people who so much want to meet Mr. or Mrs Right, I can only say that no one has any control over when or if that happens. You can only create favourable conditions:
1. Make sure you're the kind of person you yourself like to be with.
2. Reflect on what kind of person you would like to be with - what qualities you demand, what faults you can tolerate and what constitutes a deal-breaker.
3. Keep yourself active doing things you truly enjoy and where you do meet people, so that you can at least surround yourself with friends."
(Spaces added in between paragraphs were mine.)
Is there a way you can post these three points of advice every time there is a letter from someone trying to snag the "woman of his dreams" or "man of her dreams"? This is excellent advice all the way around.
I'd just reiterate the "be patient" thing with that being point No. 4. I mean, the original LW – no matter what his/her motives were, pure as has been suggested (and he's just not having any luck or trying too hard), or looking for a "hookup" (regardless of his/her physical desirability) – is only 20 years old, so (s)he's got time. But even for people who are 30, or 40 or 50 or 60 ... heck, even 70 ... it pays to be patient and also apply the three points you mentioned.
If a relationship is meant to be, it's meant to be. Plain and simple.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Bobaloo
Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:11 PM
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Re: Bobaloo
I would switch "Be patient" for "Don't even think about it". As in, che sera sera, whatever will be, will be. What's the use agonising about something you can't control? And I'm putting this into practice myself.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:09 PM
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Re: Lise Brouillette (#38)
I'll go along with "Don't even think about it" if it's the que sera sera (notice the American spelling, which initially threw me off) definition you mean. Which I think it is.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Bobaloo
Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:06 PM
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Massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2003, two years before Canada did.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Soozan
Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:57 PM
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That CC has been 20 for the past 3 years.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Penny
Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:27 PM
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@nanchan, you have been on a rampage of insults for the past few days. As any good advice columnist would say, have you been to the doctor for a complete medical work up? Because you seem to be raging at other posters harder than usual, and perhaps there is a medical reason for this behavior.
Comment: #42
Posted by: msladymich
Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:31 PM
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Re: Soozan
And hurray for Massachussets, they get the party hat! I didn't know this was a contest.
This being stated, Canada is a country, not a state, and in the US of A, laws vary widely from one state to the other. Bill C-38, passed in 2005 by the Paul Martin federal government (and confirmed by the Senate and by Royal Assent), covered the entire country.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:01 PM
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Oh boy, here we go again. How long until the webmaster shuts this down again?
Comment: #44
Posted by: filjack
Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:27 AM
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Are you kidding, filjack? The webmaster is taking notes for a TV script... lol!
Comment: #45
Posted by: KC
Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:07 PM
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GOOD ONE KC!!!!!! I'm still lmfao!!!
Comment: #46
Posted by: filjack
Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:54 PM
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Re: Bobaloo #39
That's exactly what it is, and after I finished posting, I realised I would have preferred to say "Put it out of your mind completely".
Comment: #47
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:42 AM
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