Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - Don't go to family gatherings. I think your older sibling is on to something, and I don't see what's dysfunctional about hating a group such as you describe. Take responsibility for your own life, model good behavior for your kids & spouse, and avoid the rest of your family as much as possible. As for your mother, don't blame her if your siblings are bad news. It's not up to her to allow other adults to do anything. Adults are free to make their own choices without mommy's okay.
LW2 - grow up. If you're old enough to be married, you're old enough to tell your father the truth about your life, no matter what you think his reaction will be. You're better off to tell him the truth yourself instead of waiting for someone else to do it. No one respects a coward or a liar, and if he cuts you off because you're gay, you're better off without him. You don't sound that close anyway, if he wouldn't even notice that you're married.

LW1: As I see it you have 2 choices: 1. Detachment. Detach from the situation emotionally. Be an observer. Do not engage with any of your relatives and do not engage them. You cannot control them, but you can control YOU. 2. Avoidance. You unfortunately have a previous engagememt and cannot come to the party(ies).

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 30 January 2013, which was also discussed on 7 & 13 March 2013.

'Feeling The Void In Indiana' referred to the whole column of responses to 'Your Husband' published on 15 December 2012. The original 'Your Husband' was the first letter on 21 October 2012. A single response was included on 5 January 2013.

LW2: I hope that you will tell your father that you are gay in the very near future and then wait a while before you tell him that you are contemplating marrying your partner. He may be more supportive than you expect, but on the other hand, he may be caught by surprise and not react well initlally. Give him a little while to come around. I hope he will step up. And congratulations to the both of you! If you are on a budget, consider a ceremony that includes all of your good friends. You can have a grand celebration without spending a lot of money if you plan well.

LW1 - I think your sister is wise to have stayed away from the dysfunction for many years. As for the way your family behaves, there is nothing you can do to change them. You can't make them behave like mature adults. If I had children, I would not want them around that type of dysfunction. Children learn by example. Do you want them to possibly pick up that kind of behavior?

You said, "My mother allows her adult children to treat one another like animals and refuses to get involved in the chaos." Your mother isn't "allowing" anything. Her kids are all adults and she's letting them handle their own problems like she should. Her days of scolding and punishing and over. She isn't getting involved in the chaos and drama because she's smart!

LW2 - I agree with PuaHone #4.

LW1 - Sorry, I mean to say older SIBLING...not sister.

What was the purpose of the third letter exactly?

Oh, I get it. The fat, bigoted Annies wanted to get that “last note” in and reiterate their hatred for men.

Remember: MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.

LW1 - I can't really add much to what others have said. The LW should distance herself from this family and not subject her children to all the chaos. There's nothing she can do to change them, but gatherings where fist fights develop are no place for children. Sad, but nothing much else to be done here.
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LW2 - I think the LW should tell his father that he and Michael are a couple and then let that sink in before telling him that he and Michael are planning on getting married. You never know - his reaction may be more positive than the LW thinks it will. In any event, it's not a good idea to keep his father in the dark, since he'll certainly learn of the LW's relationship somewhere else and it's better coming from his son. As far as the wedding goes, the LW should invite those of his friends and family who will be happy for them and who will want to celebrate their union. Weddings and celebrations don't have to be expensive to be happy, festive occasions.

LW1--"My mother allows her adult children to treat one another like animals and refuses to get involved in the chaos." And yet you have apparently exposed your family to this toxic cesspool for all these years? Honey, oil and water do not mix. Stop trying to change others and instead change yourself. From now on hold your own family celebrations with just you, your husband and children and perhaps a few close family friends. It's time your children learned that holidays and other celebrations are happy events, not battlegrounds where they end up in tears.

LW2--If you're mature enough to be contemplating a significant life-altering event such as marriage than you should be mature enough to inform your father that you're not only gay, but that you're marrying your life partner. Sure, your father will be upset and might become irate but if you can't handle that little conflict than I have to question whether or not you're mature enough to handle married life and all of the potential conflicts that are no doubt about to come (life isn't perfect after all.) Start with talking with your father and then worry about your guest list.

LW3--Note to the Annies: why don't you take all of the mail about this topic and fill this void with it once and for all.

LW1: Where is the father in all this, I wonder? That said, this sounds like an issue that should have been settled at least 40 years ago, if not as soon as the bickering began. You sit them down immediately, figure out why there's a rivalry brewing and then put a halt to it PRONTO!

Unfortunately, it appeared that did not happen – hence, the situation described the letter.

Ugh – I don't know what else to say except it may be time to forget this family ever being the Waltons or the Bradys ... or even the Simpsons (the latter whom at least shows love and loyalty to each other, despite dysfunction). This sounds more like the Kardashians or worse.

Break away from them, get some cooling off ... and then what the Annie's said – perhaps seeing them individually may not be a bad idea. It's just the getting them together that these clashes happen.

LW3: Yeah, I'm not sure that I get the point of the letter either. But as long as they're printing goofy letters like this I may as well comment.

"I'm a healthy 30-year-old man with all the normal biological urges. I also haven't been in a romantic relationship in years and am completely sexually inactive — and I feel fine about it."

you have urges, no relationship, sexually inactive, and okay with that. huh...

" Sex is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. "

actually, it kind of is. without it...

"any man who cheats on his wife or girlfriend is a cad"

why the reference to just men cheating on women? why not bash men cheating on their male partners, or women cheating on their male partners, or women cheating on their female partners? I should stop. I'm getting myself all excited.

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Woof, not to pour salt in the wounds, but I sure am thankful for my family this morning. LW1: What a rotten situation. You are so smart to be proactive and make the decision to keep your children away from these people. You're stopping the cycle with your own children. I commend you for that.
LW2: How sad. I hope this is a situation where his father is more accepting than the LW thinks he will be.. But in case he's not, it truly is better to have an honest and true relationship (or lack thereof) than to be deceitful. Plus, I can promise you, your father already knows something is up. You're talking marriage, so I assume you've been together for quite awhile; you don't think your father suspects something with your "friend" Michael? Even if you live on opposite coasts, I bet he suspects. In high school, I had two friends come out of the closet. While I'm glad it was such a relief for them, it wasn't a surprise for any of us. It's hard to hide such a big part of yourself and you're probably not doing as good as of a job as you think you are :)

" Sex is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. "

actually, it kind of is. without it...

@Gerhardt: Now that's funny! :)

LW: Well, you may as well tell your father. He's going to find out one way or another. Best way is to be direct.

If you don't invite your father, he'll be offended. Depending on his point of view, he may be angry anyway, although you don't know if he'll be supportive or disown you, or anything in between, unless you tell him.

As far as you thinking he won't find out if you don't tell him, oh yes he can. One such way is in the newspaper – many newspapers, especially larger daily ones, publish courthouse news, including listings of marriage licenses – all marriage licenses ... including same-sex couples (that's along with misdemeanor/felony depositions, property transfers and deeds, building permits, births, divorces and so forth). Granted, not all newspapers do publish marriage licenses, but you need to assume that your name and your friend's name will be listed under the "marriage licenses" heading ... and somehow he'll read it – whether it's him doing so directly or having a friend tell him and show him.

It's a lot better coming from you. It's up to you to muster the courage to do so and deal with whatever happens.

LW2 - Your father knows you are gay. If your mother knows and is "fully supportive" I'm pretty sure your father knows about it too. Tell him. But don't spring that and marriage on him all at once. I'm confused about your getting married in a courthouse of a state that doesn't allow gay marriage because it's the principle of the thing? Are you going across state lines for the marriage? Get your mom to handle your father about the marriage and travelling to the ceremony. No point in adding stress to your big day if you can get someone else to handle it for you.

LW3- If at age 30 you think you have all the normal urges, yet you never need sex- stay single, and do your future woman friends a favor. You aren't normal. That's okay, just don't get involved with a normal woman. Or find a woman who also doesn't need or want sex.

Did the Annies publish LW3 as a joke? Or do they really equate making love with your wife as being on a par with any other "normal biological urge", like chowing down on a pork chop or going for a dump in the toilet?
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LW3, there is a GIGANTIC DIFFERENCE between your situation of being "Abstinent and OK with it" and "Feeling the Void's". The fact that you (and the Annies) so utterly fail to recognize that difference, is likely the reason you have not been in a romantic relationship for years. In fact, I strongly suspect that you have never felt that kind of deep, intense and emotional love that a couple experiences that makes them want to make love to each other. I believe that you have experienced SEX in your life, but you have never experienced MAKING LOVE. Otherwise, how else could you possibly think that your situation of being SINGLE and VOLUNTARILY CELIBATE is the same as being MARRIED to a woman you LOVE in a relationship that is completely DEVOID of intimacy or physical AFFECTION? How else could you possibly believe that going to the gym and doing arm curls can substitute for holding in your arms the person you married, that you vowed to love, honor and cherish, that you are closest to in all the world and plan to grow old with, and making love to them?
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(BTW, it might interest you to know that animals and humans, especially babies and seniors, fail to thrive and develop normally and even die earlier when deprived of physcial touch and affection. No amount of "outdoor activities" can counter those effects. Touch is a poweful thing.)
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Following your line of reasoning, a woman could write a similar letter: My husband, whom I deeply love, has not kissed me or hugged me in over a year. He no longer tells me he loves me. When we watch TV, he will not hold my hand or put his arm around me. If I attempt to initiate physical closeness by taking my hand in his, he removes it and pulls away. He never does any of the little things he used to do to show me that he loves me, like give me cards or flowers. He longer leaves the porch light on, fills my car with gas, or asks me to let him know I got there safely. He says I can do those things for myself. However, I still feel complete, and women who see a problem with this are selfish. I simply pour my energy into working out and other outdoor activities. When my husband won't hold my hand, I simply go and put a mitten on--it keeps my hand just as warm, right?
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What is especially sad is that in your misguided attempt to display men who want to make love to their wives, say even once a year, as selfish neatnderthals, equaling it as just another "biological urge", you actually achieve the purpose of sexually objectifying women. No longer is a wife something sacred and special that you want to share your physical love and emotional feelings with--in your view she is simply a vessel (a hole in the wall, as Lise would say) to satisfy a biological urge. One that is easily replaceable in your books with just another physical activity like weightlfting, mountainbiking, or presumably, a date with your right-hand man.
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You say any man who cheats is a cad, and with that I agree, but you fail to see that Feeling the Void's wife failed to live up to her marriage vows first--to LOVE and CHERISH. Their problem was that their marriage had already died. They just hadn't formalized it yet.
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I feel sorry for you. It's a shame that the Annies would actually print your letter, presumably as some kind of testimony to the selfishness of "Feeling the Void", instead of advising you to seek counselling so you can find out just what is missing in your psyche that you fail to understand that making love in a marriage is not about getting an orgasm far or fulfilling a biological urge. That's just the icing on the cake. i won't bother trying to explain it to you, because I think it would be like trying to explain colors to a blind man, a symphony to one who is deaf. And if you haven't experienced what it means to make love at the age of 30, perhaps you're destined to never experience it at all.

LW1 -- Totally agree that you need to stop attending family functions. Set an example for your children that tells them that this behavior is unacceptable. As for letting them see some family members individually...I'm not so sure about that. It may be fine IF the dysfunction is only related to the dynamics when everyone gets together. That CAN be the case, but unfortunately, it is more often the case the dysfunctional dynamics manage to warp the people involved in them -- in other words, there's a pretty good chance that one or more of your family members is toxic in his or her own right. So, perhaps you give it a chance and see, but I wouldn't hold out any great hope that you are going to be able to have a good relationship or help your children forge a good relationship with any of these people individually.

LW2 -- Just want to point out that if gay marriage isn't allowed in your state, then the courthouse is not going to be a good or appropriate venue for you. Courthouses serve as venues for LEGAL wedding ceremonies only. If it's not legal in your state, no judge is going to marry you at the courthouse. This may seem like a petty detail to bring up -- particularly since you have bigger fish to fry (like getting up the gumption to tell your father you are gay), but I thought it was worth mentioning.

@Rozelle -- actually, it's very possible the father doesn't know even though the mother does, since they are divorced. For that matter, I have heard of situations where one parent knows and the other doesn't, and they're still married.

Re: Patty Bear
LW3 is normal, the list of what is abnormal sexually is much shorter that what is normal between consenting adults. Temporary asexuality is not abnormal. My take on his letter is that he is busy taking care of himself and doesn't want or need a relationship at this time, but he has had girlfriend(s) in the past. I also think with what he wrote that when he is in a relationship he is faithful to the person he is with.
Re: Gerhardt - you made me laugh out loud - thanks!
LW1: your family is toxic, leave them be.
LW2: I'm with every one else here, how can you be mature enough to marry without being mature enough to tell your family who you are? Your Dad probably knows anyway. I figured out that my son was bisexual before he did, and I'm OK with it. Personally, if I was gay I would wait at this point to see what the Supreme Court has to say. You may not have to go to another state to get married. At least that's what I'm hopinfg for :)

LW1 -
You cannot change them, they themselves have no intention of changing, so there will be no change indeed. Your only way to avoid the toxic sludge is to stay away from it. Yes, consider one-on-one time for your children, but only with the well-behaved ones who will treat them with respect. Yes, children are resilient, but they also soak up living examples like a sponge. You have no idea and have no control over who they will ultimately choose as a role model, so the best you can do as an attentive parent is to limit the negative ones as much as possible.

But I don't agree with the Annies that you should "calmly explain to your family why you are walking out" - they will NOT remain calm about it and this will be another major row. I don't recommend that you make any earth-shattering declarations about your future non-attendance. This will be viewed as a declaration of war, and you'll be the next favourite target for back-stabbing - the absent is always wrong, right?

Just stop going, that's all, and fix it so that you always have a major impediment on that day (you're very, very sick with a contagious disease, one of your kids has the runs, your husband has a badly sprained ankle and needs you in attendance, your mother-in-law/best friend/kitty cat is in the middle of a crisis, you're working that day and cannot be replaced, you have a previous commitment - whatever works). Until they get used to your absence and hopefully take it for granted.

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@kai archie #1 and Michelle #5
"As for your mother, don't blame her if your siblings are bad news. It's not up to her to allow other adults to do anything. Adults are free to make their own choices without mommy's okay."
"Your mother isn't "allowing" anything. Her kids are all adults. (...) She isn't getting involved in the chaos and drama because she's smart!"
While I agree with both of you that the mother no longer has control over her children's behaviour once they reach adulthood, I can assure you that they weren't born behaving that way and that they learned it from someone - HER.

Mister Crazy SInger's family was exactly like that. There wasn't a single "normal" one in the bunch. One of the sisters was a diagnosed paranoid-schizophrenic in and out of mental institutions, the other had one nervous breakdown after the other, the brothers were all rabid women-haters with mysogynistic poison dripping every time they opened their mouth...

Every family gathering was a snark fest, with each of the siblings competing for the spotlight. The mother would just throne in the middle like a queen, with a mask of pretend scandalised look on her face. Mister Crazy told me several times that, when they were young, she would actually goad the siblings into those cock fights, sitting primly in the middle and going hee hee hee, ho ho ho, hu hu hu, as if it was the funniest thing in the world. Being love-starved to start with, the kids craved their mother's approval of course, and behaved like bulls in a fight.

I was witness to that carnage only once. I refused to go for a second helping. As I told him, I would have preferred spending Christmas Eve washing my kitchen floor on all four to being subjected to that.

It's not because she's smart that the mother "isn't getting involved in the chaos and drama". It's because she's merely sitting back and contentedly enjoying the results of her work. Like Crazy Singer's mother did.

Yesterday's letter about Martha and Missy drama. In comment #97 one of the relatives wrote in and answered a few questions.

My apologies to LW 2 -- apparently you intend to go to a state where it IS legal to get married, as opposed to just holding a commitment ceremony of some sort where you live. Sorry about that!

@Lise (20) -- totally agree! I had the same thought -- it's certainly true that the mother no longer has control over her adult children, it's awfully darn likely that she played at least some role in making them the way they are today. I do not believe in blaming parents for every single problem, character flaw, mistake their children have/make. I do believe that some people turn out badly DESPITE their parents doing all the right things, etc., just as some people turn out fantastic DESPITE having totally crappy parents. But more often than not, when you see this level of dysfunction, the parents have played some role in creating that dysfunction. Sometimes it's the "sin of omission" -- mom never stepped in back when she could have and should have (as Bobaloo already mentioned -- always like to give Bobaloo a shout-out when I can). Sometimes, it's an active role, as it was in the case of Crazy Singer's mother.

LW3 - I disagree. If one partner in a marriage completely closes off to sex, is not willing to work on it, and has expressed no desire to ever have sex again, their partner has several legitimate, honorable choices: 1) be abstinent; 2) get a divorce or separation; 3) have an "arrangement" (an affair with their partner's knowledge; or 4) have an affair without the partner's knowledge. Any one of these can be the right decision, depending on the circumstances. (To those who say that choice 4 is "breaking the marriage vows," what of it? The partner who decided retroactively to turn off the sex, has already violated one of the fundamental foundations of the relationship; he or she has no legitimate beef if it leads to an affair.)

Personally I would advocate (2), the divorce or separation, because it's more open and honest. But in those circumstances, I would not throw the first stone at someone who made one of the other choices.

BTW, name-calling, calling people "cads," etc. is juvenile and immature in itself.

@ Sarah Marrow Re: #24

Amen sister!

LW1: Stop going. What is wrong with you? If it sucks that bad stop going. Duh.

LW2: If you can't figure this stuff out on your own then you are way too young to get married. Grow up first.

LW3: Amen, my brother.