Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the first letter on 22 February 2013.

My father called me from his deathbed about 13 years ago. He was dying of cancer. I had not seen or spoken to him since I was 18 years old. When he called, I was 53. I didn't hang up.
I simply reminded him that he had molested me when I was a child, and when I was 18, after my mother died, he beat me black and blue, tried to rape me, then tried to murder me (he would have inherited my mother's estate if I'd died). He said, "I apologize for anything I might have done that may have offended you." Weasel words from a sociopath.
I said goodbye. Then I hung up. I considered visiting the hospital he claimed to be in, to make sure he was telling the truth, but didn't want to get that close to him, or to find myself telling sympathetic staff what he was all about. I finally got official word that he died on Thanksgiving. Very nicely timed, I thought. I had been in therapy for PTSD for years, but only when he was actually dead could I finally relax.

LW3 - why exactly does she HAVE TO do anything? Maybe the father was an abusive a-hole while "Linda" was growing up, and now he's swimming in that Egyptian river. If Linda feels that her father was a toxic part of her life, she had every right to cut him off and find her own happiness.

I haven't spoken to my own parents for 35 years, and have NO desire to do so. I have no idea if they are even dead or alive, nor do I care. I feel no obligation to make someone who abused me when I was young happy on their deathbed. These whiny parents of adult children who have cut them off are the ones who need to take a good long look in the mirror and realize that just maybe, they DID do something wrong.

LW1, your choices are limited. You either need to go to the owner and point out how the situation is harming business, or you need to keep cleaning up yourself, or you need to find a new job. For myself, I believe the best answer for you is to approach the boss and then, if that doesn't work, find a new job. I think if you continue to clean up (for no pay) what someone else is paid to clean up, you will just grow to resent your workplace more and more.

LW2, you have a point, but I think it would be better made by addressing those companies, wouldn't it? Complaints from employees and customers could paint the company in a bad light. Or you could call your local news station and ask them to do a report on it, sometimes negative media exposure can cause a company to change practices.

LW3, I disagree that every situation is the same as yours; it may be quite cruel for you to suggest that an adult child "must" contact a dying parent, if that dying parent was cut out of their lives for good reason. Perhaps a reconciliation might have been possible if it'd been tried before on the deathbed.

Remember, too, that it's entirely possible the original LW knows *exactly* why he's been cut off, but didn't want to say, in order to make himself look more sympathetic.

You'd do well to remember that what worked in your life and situation may not be the same for other people. Don't project your feelings for your husband onto situations that may be far worse than you can imagine. Sometimes parents are cut off for *extremely* good reasons and the adult children have every right to live their lives without the toxic influence of these people... and certainly do not "owe" them any sort of reconciliation.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice if it can happen, if someone can actually truly, deeply apologize and another person can forgive; but to insist that it *must* happen in all situations is simply not accurate and not showing empathy to the victims of abusive parents.

LW1 - I agree with Mike H on this one. You can go to the owner and express your concerns that clients have been complaining about the cleanliness of the place, you can clean it up yourself or find a new job. There's really not much else you can do. Good luck.

LW2 - I've worked in retail and I admit that standing all day was no picnic but I wouldn't call it "cruel and unusual punishment." If you think standing all day is cruel and unusual than you've obviously never watched or the read the news. If you think it's unfair, then say something to the store's manager. But before you do that - watch the episode of Seinfeld where George complained that the store's security guard had to stand all day and he in turn got him a chair. The guard was asleep in the chair while the store got robbed.

LW3 - Children don't cut off their parents for no reason. They don't wake up one day and say, "What should I do today? Oh, I know...I'll cut off my parents." Sure, there are always circumstances where one parent poisoned their mind or the adult child is unstable but most of the time, I believe, it's because of a serious situation. Like LizzieDavies and Christine wrote. You said he had a desperate need to be forgiven for "whatever." I'd love to know what that "forever" was.

LizzieDavis - I am so sorry to hear your story. NO person should ever have to go through that. I hope you are doing well.

LW1 - Stop whining about cleaning and put up signs or put out a memo with your name on it stating that the office does not look professional, clients are noticing and that everyone is responsible for his/her waste, dishes etc... I say put your name on the memo because it appears that this place runs on rumors.

LW1 - I agree with the posters that have recommended telling the supervisor that the clients have been commenting on the appearance of the office, and look for a new job if that doesn't work. I don't recommend that the LW do the cleaning, or it will end up being a non-paying job with the other person getting paid for doing basically nothing.
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LW2 - I don't think a letter to the Annies will be much help. The LW would be better served by talking to the managers of the stores involved. Many elderly people are now seeking employment in order to supplement their income and standing all day can be a hardship, but I think the LW is complaining to the wrong people. I doubt it will help much, but it's worth a try. Mike H offered some good suggestions.
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LW3 - I was fortunate enough to have had wonderful parents, but not everyone is in that situation. Most people who distance themselves from their parents completely after reaching adulthood do so for a reason. Sometimes those reasons are the result of an argument that can be settled, but more often it's because of bad treatment, abuse, or other issues that made the children's lives unbearable. I don't think every case deserves a deathbed reconcilation, and the children themselves are the best judge of whether or not it would be of benefit.

LW2: Interestingly, more studies are showing that standing at work is probably healthier for people than sitting all day; there's a movement on for office workers to raise keyboards and monitors so people can use them while standing. One of our administrative assistants has done this.

The key, though, is that the worker has the choice. That AA in our office has a stool that she can use as needed.

I'd bet those stores have stools for workers returning from foot surgery with a doctor's note, etc., but not enough for everyone -- they fear customers will think it makes their work staff look lazy. Which is sad, because as LW notes, the people who are working those jobs are doing so because they need them... and if they're unable to afford shoes with proper support, or if they have physical problems existing, the standing will make them less likely to be able to keep the job they need.

LW 1 could say something like " Our clients have been commenting on the sloppy state of our office. This is not good for business. Since so-and-so has been promoted s/he is obviously too busy with his/her new duties to continue to clean. I know s/he was being paid extra to do the cleaning. I would be willing to take over that duty for that extra pay."

LW1--I'm with the Annies. The bottom line is that regardless of the reasons, the cleaning isn't getting done and people are starting to notice. Document a few client complaints and simply deposit them in the proper channels. Nobody is going to retaliate against you for pointing out the obvious.

LW2--People are lazy and sedentary enough without having a hip-high stool located within arms reach to park their fat asses while at work. Not everyone in the workforce is elderly or infirm. A more realistic recommendation is to check into those new fangled gel insoles. They're like standing on an anti-fatigue mat no matter where you're at.

LW3--Did it occur to you that your step-children grieved the loss of their father and said goodbye years before he died? Maybe he was the world's biggest jerk; perhaps he abandoned them physically or emotionally; maybe he was never there for them. Think on those things before you generalize and place blame on children for not dropping everything to spend the final moments of a dying man whom they "lost" years before.

Re LW2 - there's also the point that employees aren't supposed to be sitting doing nothing when not busy at they're main job. I was a front-end supervisor at a grocery store for several years, and no, no one loves standing for hours on end, but if the cashier has no customers in their line, they are not supposed to just sit there, stool or no stool. They are supposed to put back items that customers decided they no longer wanted, or straighten up magazine/candy racks, or face the displays at the ends of the aisles, or gather up baskets and take them to the front door. Any number of things. Also, many if not most retail employees are not full time and are not standing for 8 hours a day. As a supervisor, I had 9 hour shifts on weekends, but all the cashiers had 4.5-6 hour shifts. Sure that's still a long time to stand, but it's not the same as a manager's shift.

If someone is incapable of standing for hours, then the jobs that require it are not for them. Find somewhere better suited to your needs, something that involves sitting doing paperwork for at least part of the day, or a smaller/private business where they don't mind if the cashier sits (chain stores have much more stringent requirements for customer service and employees' images than say a mom-and-pop shop with only a handful of employees). You wouldn't seek out a job as a furniture mover if you can't lift heavy things, so don't seek out a job as a cashier at a grocery store if you can't stand for a few hours. It's not up to employers to change the job duties and their policies to suit you (unless of course it's actually dangerous), it's up to you to find a job that you are able to do.

LW 1- Just as others have suggested, talk to his boss about the cleaning situation. I imagine that the boss is probably the owner due to the size of the company. Maybe even write an anonymous note to the boss since your supervisor is the one who is not doing his cleaning job for which he is being paid. I also have to assume that his boss and/or the owner is not on-site or how else would he/she not notice that the office is so messy that clients are mentioning it.

LW2- I have noticed that with more and more seniors or disabled people working retail that some of the stores have put in stools like you describe. I know that the Target's that I go to in Pennsylvania is doing this. I think we may see more stores do this in time as goes on and more seniors are forced back into the working world.

For Pete's sake, how can any office with ten supposedly grown-up people ever get to the point that it looks like a frat house? Haven't any of you heard of cleaning up after yourselves? Whenever I worked in an office, we each washed our own dishes and that of any clients we had in. (Your boss can also buy a counter-top dishwasher for about $125, less than he or she is paying the human, or you could all chip in $10 for it.) We disposed of our own office wastebins into one large garbage can and dusted our own cubicles.
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DON'T go to the boss (and heaven forbid, NOT your boss' boss!) about this, who is stressed enough trying to make a business run with a profit in difficult economic times so you can all still have a job tomorrow. It will only make you look like a whiney tattletale who isn't bright enough to come up with a simple solution to a simple problem on your own, especially since you say no one else is bothered by the mess.
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Seriously Annies, your constant advice to go crying to your mommy or daddy--oops, I mean boss--for every little personal grievance about one of your brothers or sisters--oops, I mean colleagues--could be one of the reasons Americans are losing their place in the world as a once-strong, innovative, resourceful, self-reliant nation. You go to the boss for two things. One, if you've discovered a serious problem that is going to affect your company's survival, reputation, or bottom line THAT YOU CANNOT SOLVE YOURSELF. That usually means something serious enough that it will require calling 9-1-1, a press conference, HR for a termination, or a lawyer. Two, if you have come up with a SOLUTION to a problem or thought of way to make the company more money. In other words, you go to the boss if you discover your co-worker is embezzling the pension fund, not because they left a coffee cup in the sink.
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LW1, go to the head honcho and say you've come up with some ways to improve employee morale, the work environment, and customer perceptions. Get permission for your ideas and ask if you can call a staff meeting to explain them. Spring for donuts. Tell everyone you've come up with some ideas to make coming to work more enjoyable. Maybe a once-a-month potluck, an employee appreciation day, a customer appreciation day, a staff picnic, an office football pool, whatever. Make ONE of the ideas the concept that you all clean up your own dishes and trash, and once a week, you take turns giving the office a quick vacuum, dust the common areas and take out the trash and recycling. The money you save from not having to pay a cleaner will be divided into three pots--one for your office charity, one for staff fun events, and one to??? How about buying that mini dishwasher? Ask everyone else for THEIR suggestions on how to make the office a better, more enjoyable place to work.
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And then the next time there's a promotion to be handed out, don't be surprised if your boss gives it to YOU.

Re: LizzieDavies, I have always believed that one should forgive and move on... if anything for their own sanity... but in your case, I think the SOB should rot in hell. To put another human being through what that animal put you through is... there are no words. Sending you tons of hugs honey!

LW2: I can't believe someone wrote this, and really can't believe the letter was taken seriously and printed. If you have trouble standing on the job then that job isn't for you. Chairs at checkouts.....good grief.

Re: Chris (#10)

(To certain BTL'ers – Yes, it's getting to be where I'm responding to him every day again. Whatever.)

Now, Chris ... every situation is different.

First, I completely sympathize with LizzieDavies (#2) and would say her situation is an excellent reason WHY to cut yourself off.

But that's just one situation. While I agree that others aren't quite that bad (i.e., rife with sexual and physical abuse, and attempted murder so bad that Lizzie's father SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PRISON!!!!!) and that some parents are just plain unfit or undeserving ... there are plenty of others where the estrangement is out of misunderstandings, resentment for alleged treatment of siblings (especially where the estranged doesn't know the whole story) or the parent not allowing their child to be a "wild child," political and personal belief differences, and other situations that doesn't merit complete "cut off."

Without going back to read the original letter, I'd suggest that each situation is different and you need to handle it accordingly. For each toxic and/or abusive parent out there who's been deservedly cut off, there are others who truly have done nothing wrong, or their "wrongs" are rather minor ... and are begging for their child to come back home.

Amen.

LW1: Talk to the owners – the "head boss," who is likely your super's boss. Perhaps you'll find that you didn't need to do anything – i.e., your supervisor already had his meeting with the owner about the cleaning situation and expectations spelled out. Doesn't hurt anything, however.

Re: Alexandra, while what you say is true for the most part, what about the greeters at the big box stores? They hire seniors for these positions because greeting, checking receipts, and smiling is all they are considered 'capable' of doing. Even when it is not busy, they must 'stand' there waiting for the next customer. I see no reason what so ever why these people who brighten our day with a smile cannot have a stool for which to sit. And it should be noted, that standing all day can be a hazard, even to the youngest folks.

LW1

Why don't you all just clean up after yourselves? You're ten people for pete's sake! I've worked in an office of ten with no cleaning service. We all did our own dishes, tidied our own areas, and during slower periods we would tackle larger jobs (windows, running the vacuum, etc). Sometimes some things got dusty, but it never looked dirty unless you start to get close to examine it.

LW2 / hedghehog

Haha, I am standing right now. I love my standing desk! Sitting day doubles (or something crazy) your risk for early death by heart attack or something.

Anyway, I have seen cashiers with stools. I suspect they are available upon request or with a doctor's note. Because they are also moving around when they are standing, it should not be that bad and good shoes and posture can relieve most discomfort. I do agree with the idea of giving them respite from standing with a desk at each station, but I agree with the others also who said to contact the stores directly.

Re: jajjaaj

I'm not really arguing with you, but wanted to point out that sitting all day is a larger hazard than standing all day!

LW3

You just know what everyone should do, don't you? He quite possibly abused or molested his daughter when she was a kid, you know.

LW1 -- why don't the people in this office clean up after themselves? Because they all know that someone is getting PAID to clean the office, so they're not particularly excited about doing it for free while the one guy who is supposed to be doing the cleaning is getting paid for their efforts. I can't say I blame them. What is even more pathetic to me is that somehow the owner of the business is completely blind, deaf and dumb to the situation.

@gerhardt -- you are so right about LW2. Seriously ridiculous that this letter was even printed.

@bobaloo -- I'm actually writing in to back you up on what you said about LW3. Yes, there certainly are circumstances, like some of the horrific ones shared here at the BTL today, where the parents have been cut off for good reason, and the grown children certainly owe them ZIPPO, regardless of whether they're on their deathbeds or not. To those who have shared their stories here, my heart goes out to you.

But I know from experience that there isn't always a "good reason" when a grown child cuts off his/her parents. Regulars at the BTL have read about my Evil BIL before. Several years ago, he cut off his parents from both himself and his children. Why? Because he believed they were the ones who called children services about the mother of his children and her children. As it happens, his parents are NOT the ones who called children services (a different member of the family did), but he was never going to believe that. Just as he was never going to believe it when MULTIPLE people (not just his parents) tried to tell him that his baby momma's mother was, at the very LEAST pouring poison into those kids' brains and was suspected of physically and sexually abusing them, as well. He refused to believe these allegations because that would have required him to get off his @$$ and do something about it and, you know, be a father, which was something he really wasn't interested in doing (which, perhaps, he should have considered before fathering three children with a woman he doesn't even much like, but I digress). Even if no one had called children services, it was inevitable that Evil BIL would cut off his parents -- they were trying to get him to do right by his children, which was something he couldn't be bothered to do, and he really doesn't like it when someone suggests he isn't right about something. So, the call to DCF was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back -- but it was going to happen anyway.

Fast forward three years, and the baby momma makes a false domestic violence accusation against him, and he spends eight hours in jail. He miraculously realizes his parents were right about her and her mother (but STILL insists they should have come to him instead of DCF -- nevermind that 1) they DID go to him REPEATEDLY and 2) they're not even the ones who called DCF!) -- and, more to the point, he needs their help. My in-laws, desperate to be back in contact with their son and grandchildren, basically agree to pretend like nothing ever happened. They've all been in contact again now for about two or three years. In that time, Evil BIL has threatened to cut them off from their grandchildren again, tried to punch his father (who had the audacity to suggest that kids might need counseling to help them deal with the split of their parents, seeing their father carted off to jail, being told to lie to police and the court, etc., etc., etc. -- the only reason the punch didn't come off is because another family member stepped in) and other similar actions. At present, my in-laws do still see the grandchildren fairly regularly -- but they never go to their son's house; they are not invited to go there, and they do not ask to go there. They see the children at school events or otherwise "neutral ground."

To me, it is plain that Evil BIL will eventually cut them off again. Perhaps just for a few months. Perhaps for a few years. Perhaps for a decade or two. He will cut them off when he feels like he's got things enough under control again that he doesn't need their help. It won't even take a call to DCF. He KNOWS that he is not doing right by his children, and even though his parents generally keep their mouths shut as far as making any sort of suggestions related to helping them, he KNOWS his parents think he's a $#!tty dad -- which, quite frankly, he is. So, when he feels like he doesn't need them anymore, he will cut them off.

And I assure you that when he does, when people ask him about it, he will cook up 100 lies about his parents -- he did that last time, too. He will be 100% convinced that he is totally right to cut them off.

LIzzieDavies, Christine and others here who had and have every reason to cut off their parents -- trust me, I believe you, and I'm sorry that your parents were such monsters, and I absolutely believe that you were and are totally right to cut them out of your lives. I just want to point out that it can and does happen that an adult child cuts his/her parents off for no good reason at all.

Re: LW1

Tell everyone that customers are complaining and that each person needs to pick up and clean up after themselves. It's ridiculous that adults don't do their own dishes or even empty their own trash and I don't blame the new boss for not doing it. He probably does not get paid enough to play nursemaid to everyone in the office. If everyone cleans up after themselves and still no one finds the time or motivation to vacuum, clean the bathrooms, etc. then bring it up at a meeting in a non-confrontational way. Maybe you can take turns or maybe the boss can hire a cleaning service. Sheesh!

Re: LW2

Employees could wind up with more repetitive stress injuries getting on and off a stool no matter what height than simply standing. If you are not in a position where you stand on the job and have medical issues (in which case the you should get a doctors note and address accommodation with your employer) just STFU!

Re: LW3

The 2nd spouse frequently sees a different side of their husband/wife than the first family saw to say the least. People often learn to behave better in subsequent marriages to avoid the disastrous results of their first marriage because it's in their best interest to do so. You are in no position to judge or advise.

Send out a memo telling everyone to clean their own space, and use the money that the promoted person was getting to hire a cleaning service to come in once or twice a week. Problem solved, and what could that cost, a hundred bucks? This is the boss's responsibility so bring it up to him/her. It's unprofessional in the first place to saddle an employee with cleaning the office anyway, compensated or not, unless that is expressly their job.

Re LW#3----
I have to say, in 90% of the cases where someone's grown children have cut them out of their lives, the parent knows exactly why. It is either something s/he is ashamed of and won't admit to, or s/he just doesn't agree that the reason is valid. But people who say that something happened decades ago and they have no idea why? I call baloney on that.
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And I totally believe that 90% of the time there are reasons that a grown child chooses not to share (emotional, physical, or sexual abuse, too much micro-managing of their lives, favoring one grandchild over another, etc.) and has decided that life is much better without the hassle. They really don't need to justify these reasons to any 'outsider', and usually the outsiders will never know the reason-------because it's none of their business.
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Yes, I know sometimes it happens for no GOOD reason, or for a selfish one, but there is ALWAYS a reason------and for the parent to say it just happened out of the blue and they have no idea why? Sorry, can't buy that.

Dear Michelle--Thank you for your concern! I'm doing fine. Despite a really traumatic childhood and adolescence, I completed college, found and married a wonderful man (we've been together more than 40 years), had great kids who are doing well, and are enjoying the glories of grandchildren! I've had a good career and am about to retire. Though it took forever to find a therapist who could really help me, once I found her I worked hard and made great gains. I still go back for refresher sessions when new life stressors accumulate. My adult life has been far from problem-free, but overcoming early adversities made me stronger... though I did have a LOT of PTSD symptoms during the years before I located that excellent therapist.

Dear jajjaaj, Thank you! Much appreciated.

Just a reminder to everyone that every situation is different. I have two friends who were marvelous parents. Two of their children are happy and successful adults who adore them. One of them had problems from early adolescence and is now estranged from them. No one knows exactly why. Many of our friends and I spent a great deal of time with them, and we saw no favoritism or exclusion that would explain it. The possibility of abuse is pretty much unimaginable.

Re: Christine (#3)
"These whiny parents of adult children who have cut them off are the ones who need to take a good long look in the mirror and realize that just maybe, they DID do something wrong."
While I agree, perhaps sometimes it takes being told in blunt terms what exactly it is that they did wrong. That is, some wrongdoing parents just don't understand.
LizzieDavies (#2) did just that, when her father called to make one last plea for what he might have thought was "forgiveness" – not realizing or understanding or caring ... or perhaps to use the final trump card and "exercise final control" over the daughter he did this all to, that some things – such as sexual abuse and attempted murder – just might not be forgivable.

Re: LizzieDavies (#23)

First, I forgot to say welcome earlier (assuming you're a newbie to BTL). Hope you post often.

Second, I'd say that you are one of the fortunate ones. I sense that through the years you've thanked your therapist many times over. You are lucky to have someone like this person. Many others would envy you.

Re LW#2----
Been there, done that. Worked at two different places doing the same job--------one where I was required to stand all day, and one where the owners had installed a built-up platform so that we could sit and still be at the proper height to help customers, who were standing in front of our areas. (In fact, I left the first place to go to the second one, for that exact reason.)
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Having worked both situations, I can tell you exactly which one took the most toll on my body-------which one gave me achy legs, sore feet (even with mats and proper shoes), hurt my back--------you name it.
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I like to see an employer come up with a GOOD reason for making someone stand all day other than "It just looks better to the customer". As a sometime customer, no, it does not. I just think "You poor thing, your boss doesn't give a darn about your working conditions". And you can bet that at the first job, the higher-ups were NOT standing at a counter because "it looked better'.
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Standing vs. sitting is not an accurate gauge of who is doing actual work and who is not. My personal gauge is that if you're free to take long lunches, days off to golf (supposedly for business relations), go home early and not get docked--------and the business doesn't fall apart if you leave for several hours--------perhaps the person whose constant presence DOES keep the business from falling apart is at least as necessary as you are. And maybe you should either ALL be sitting in a chair doing your work, or you should ALL be standing?
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(Touchy subject for me, since no one at the first job ever gave me a good reason why I should go home aching all over each night when I could have done the exact same job and had a chair.)

Re LW#1-----
Wow, a bunch of letters today that I can relate to.
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At a former job, our CEO made a decision to hire people from a local 'rehabilitation center' for 'differently challenged' people. The reasoning was that it would provide them with jobs and make them useful members of the community, which was good. The OTHER reason was that it was cheaper than a regular cleaning service. And I'm sorry, but the work they did was generally lousy. Management wouldn't call them on it, because they were cheaper to hire--------until comments and complaints started coming in from the public who visited the premises.
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(The workers' saying the same thing didn't do anything---------------in fact, we DID get given the suggestion that maybe when we had free time we might pitch in and dust the baseboards, wash a few windows, clean the mini-blinds, etc.)
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I'd have had no problem doing it for extra pay---------but giving free janitorial service when the ACTUAL janitors did a crappy job, so that no one would have to pay a fair price for someone who could do the job right? Don't think so. We all did clean up our own dishes, run the dishwasher when needed, dust and clean our own desks, empty our own wastebaskets, and so on-------but I do refuse to clean a bathroom at work, or do mini-blinds. The CEO who wanted to save money can jolly well do that himself.

LW1- I do not think you should try to fix the cleaning problem where you work. You work in an office full of passive-aggressive people, and if you try to fix the problem, it will backfire all over you. The person who was promoted is doing a super passive-aggressive ploy to try to force the company to compensate her/him extra money because she/he does not think the raise was enough for the new duties AND cleaning services. Childish, right? So if you try to assist her/him with this issue, management might feel like you are trying to force their hand. The only thing you can do is, refer complaining customers to the top boss and keep your own area tidy. Other than that, let it go.
LW3- Too bad your husbands kids didn't give your husband peace of mind so he could die peacefully. I am willing to bet that he did something awful to them, maybe over many years, and they could not forgive him. Maybe if he had actually apologized sincerely years ago it would have helped, but to wait until he was dying.......too little, too late. You have no idea why they were so indifferent, because he was never honest with you. People move on, and they change, but he didn't change until you knew him. He may have been a class A jerk when he was younger.

@jennylee (#22) -- I would agree that most of the time, people (be it parents, children, other relatives, friends, etc.) know exactly why they've been cut off and that most of the time, those who claim to have "no idea" are in denial. But I appreciate that you also allowed for that small minority where they legitimately don't know why. Someone else earlier on in the BTL (not sure who and can't find it now) said that people don't just wake up one day and say, "I think today I will cut off my parents" on a whim or for no reason at all. Well, no, SANE, rational human beings don't generally do that. Unfortunately, not all human beings are sane and rational. Look at sociopaths, as an example. I can't remember which psycho it was who said the first time he tortured and killed a cat, he did it just because he wanted to see what it was like. Basically, it was a random whim. Sure, no sane, rational, healthy person wakes up and says, "I think I'll torture and kill a cat today." But clearly, not everyone is sane, rational and healthy. I really do think, like you, that more often than not, there IS a reason for it, and the parents at least have some inkling as to what it is. Clearly, my in-laws were well aware of why their son cut them off -- they also knew he was (and still is), shall we say, troubled. The fact that they knew their son was wrong to cut them off didn't make it any less painful for them. My MIL, in particular, has tortured herself trying to figure out what they did to turn him into the twisted person he is (though, IMHO opinion, his twistedness has nothing to do with his parents or his upbringing -- some people really are just "born bad," and I believe he is one of those). I don't think she would ever claim to not know why he cut them off -- but I would say she honestly doesn't know why he is the way he is.

LW1-Definitely use this as an opportunity to come up with a money-saving solution to this problem. Your bosses will notice, and like Jane said, you could get a promotion! I would be curious to know what kind of business it is, and what kind of mess you are talking about. There's a difference between a regular office setting, and a hair salon.
LW2-agree with other BTL wondering why this prompted a letter to the Annies. I will say that when I worked Retail moving around kept my fit; working in an office now I make myself get up every hour to walk around the floor, but if I'm really busy thats hard to do. And it has had an effect on my weight. I think it would be good for a relatively fit senior to keep moving as much as possible.
I do feel bad when I see a senior working. They should be enjoying their golden years, not living paycheck to paycheck. Well, nobody should for that matter.

I agree with the person who says it is cruel and unusual punishment to make grocery checkers stand on their feet all day. I was in France a few years ago and noticed that the grocery checkers there had nice chairs to sit on and the counters were actually lower for their comfort not the customers. It makes more sense. Even at the airport in France, the people working behind the counters had chairs to sit on.

I grew up one of four children. Three of us have turned out reasonably normal (is anyone truly normal - haha). One brother did not. He was a liar from the time he was very little, verbally and physically abused my sister, was kicked out of school, and generally made everyone's lives miserable with his unpleasant personality. He has been fired from more jobs than I can count, has no close friends, and is very controlling toward the woman who was foolish enough to marry him. He cut off my parents multiple times (ironically, because my parents always walked on eggshells around him), and once cut off his in-laws for over 10 years. He has no relationships with his siblings or anyone other than his wife and young children, the people he can control. He is a troubled, sick, toxic individual.

No, it's not always the parents' fault that they get cut off. My parents have always been terribly ashamed of their relationship with him and blame themselves, but it's NOT their fault.

LW1 -- You've gotten lots of good advice and some that MIGHT be good advice, depending on your situation. You know better than we at the BTL do what the "chain of command" is at this little 10-person, family-owned business, and you also know the culture and dynamics of the place better than we do, and last but not least, you know to what degree the person/people in power are aware of the situation (in most small businesses, the owner is very much hands-on and onsite, but that may not be the case here). You have already said that you can't go to your immediate supervisor, since that is the person who is supposed to be doing the cleaning but isn't. Given the size of the business, it is unlikely that if you go over his head that he's not going to find out about it. Your options:

1) Grin and bear it and hope that eventually someone else will break down and clean or the owner will finally recognize and address the problem.

2) Tell the owner that clients are complaining about the condition of the office and hope that s/he will finally recognize and address the problem.

3) Periodically break down and clean up (and continue to resent that you have to do this).

4) Find another job.

Personally, the one thing I definitely would NOT do: go to the owner and offer to take on the cleaning duties for whatever pay they are currently paying this other guy to do it. Why? Because that other guy is your supervisor. If the reason he is not cleaning is to passively-aggressively demonstrate his displeasure at the size of his raise, he's not about to thank you for taking that job -- and the money the comes with it -- off his plate. Since the owner has demonstrated zero concern/regard for this situation, I wouldn't expect him or her to step in to protect you when your boss decides to make your life miserable for taking a portion of his paycheck away.

Re: Lisa #31 and Soozan #34
I agree with what each of you has said----------there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason that includes the parents doing something that SHOULD result in being cut out of their kids' lives. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I have a hard time believing the parents have no clue, and that it just happened out of the blue.
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Even if you were cut off because your child was a total, psychopathic mess, who unreasonably blamed you for everything, you would still know WHY he cut you off-------because he has an illness or disfunction and he believes it's all your fault. It doesn't have to be a real or true reason-------but if you're honest with yourself, you do KNOW why he did it, even if it's because he's nuts. You seldom get up one day and find he's not having anything to do with you and then sit there wondering why, you usually have seen plenty of clues.
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Maybe he's mad because you won't babysit on demand, or give him money whenever he asks. Should you have to do these things? Not at all, and if he cuts you off, he's being unreasonable. But you still know, or have a pretty good idea why, he did it. It doesn't just come from nowhere. The cutting-off may, but if you look back, you can see that the reasons, good or otherwise, were there, and you did see them.
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And even the guy who tortured the cat 'just to see what it felt like'--------there have to have been some clues previously that he wasn't right. Maybe little tiny ones that escalated, but they were there. I think parents tend to bypass the tiny things, because they desperately hope that they are wrong, and that their kid is OK.

Re: Lisa #31 and Soozan #34
I agree with what each of you has said----------there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason that includes the parents doing something that SHOULD result in being cut out of their kids' lives. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I have a hard time believing the parents have no clue, and that it just happened out of the blue.
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Even if you were cut off because your child was a total, psychopathic mess, who unreasonably blamed you for everything, you would still know WHY he cut you off-------because he has an illness or disfunction and he believes it's all your fault. It doesn't have to be a real or true reason-------but if you're honest with yourself, you do KNOW why he did it, even if it's because he's nuts. You seldom get up one day and find he's not having anything to do with you and then sit there wondering why, you usually have seen plenty of clues.
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Maybe he's mad because you won't babysit on demand, or give him money whenever he asks. Should you have to do these things? Not at all, and if he cuts you off, he's being unreasonable. But you still know, or have a pretty good idea why, he did it. It doesn't just come from nowhere. The cutting-off may, but if you look back, you can see that the reasons, good or otherwise, were there, and you did see them.
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And even with the kid who tortures a cat because he 'wanted to see what it felt like' there had to have been some previous signs-------maybe very tiny ones, but they were there. I think parents tend to ignore small stuff because they desperately want to believe their kid is OK.

Sorry for the double post-------first one disappeared when I tried to refresh the page, but miraculously came back after I redid last paragraph and posted again.

@jennylee -- yeah, we're on the same page, as I agree that it's pretty rare that someone literally has NO CLUE why someone has cut him/her out of his/her life. I'm just saying that it can and probably does happen, albeit rarely. And, as noted, my in-laws certainly knew exactly why their son cut them off -- they just don't know how he got to be the way he is (and for as much as I refer to him as evil, I do not actually believe he is a psychopath). And I used the example of a sociopath who quite literally does wake up one day and say to himself, "I think I will torture and kill a cat today" not to suggest that no one would see the signs of this coming, but rather to suggest that when Michelle said:

Children don't cut off their parents for no reason. They don't wake up one day and say, "What should I do today? Oh, I know...I'll cut off my parents."

And I'm just suggesting that while reasonably sane, healthy, rational human beings do not wake up one day and say, "what should I do today? Oh, I know...I'll cut off my parents" -- not everyone is reasonably sane, healthy and rational. It's extremely rare, I'm sure -- as is the sociopathy that would lead someone to wake up and say, "I think I'll torture and kill a cat today" -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen.

@Jane #13 - If the problem were that people weren't pulling their fair share in keeping the office clean, then sure, going to the boss and whining might be a little childish. That is not the problem here. The problem is that someone is not doing something they are paid to stay late and do, and if I were the boss, I certainly wouldn't think that was something trivial that I shouldn't be bothered with.

I have worked for several retail establishments and in my experience if you are not busy helping the customers, you are expected to be stocking the candy racks, impulse items, or cleaning. If we stood idle and didn't find something to do they would find something for us to do.

I don't disagree that sometimes parents are cut off for unfair reasons.

My objection to LW3 is in her insistence that the original adult child *has* to reconnect with the father.

LW3 is offering an inappropriate "one size fits all" response that does not in any way, shape, or form recognize that sometimes parents are cut off for entirely legitimate reasons.

Re: Karen #41
I would totally agree that as long as I, or anyone, was being paid to do a job, if there was idle time, I should be finding something to do. Where I would balk, though, was if one specific employee was being paid EXTRA to take on a specific thing that was not part of the other employees' jobs, and someone said to me, "Since he's getting the pay but not doing the job, would you hop to it and take up the slack, with him continuing to keep the extra pay while you do the work that was specifically assigned to him in exchange for him getting more money than you are getting?"
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That would rub me the wrong way, I think.

LW1-
What the Annies said. Three options:
1. You go to your supervisor's boss with the problem emphasizing the fact that customers are commenting. If nothing changes,
2. you either let it pile up, or pick up after everyone else, while
3. you look for another job.

In that order.

LW2 -
Some might think that this is not a big concern, but they are not the ones with agonising pain in their feet. Unfortunately, a lot of ageing people are in that case, and they are often the ones stuck with the standing up jobs. I can testify that you work much better and faster when you're not constantly thinking of your feet, simply because they hurt so much it's like you have a bone broken.

LW3 -
How do you know she won't regret it? Perhaps you are taking for granted that the kids are being capricious and that they don't have a good reason? Well, guess what: Adult children don't usually completely cut off their parents for no reason. Now, I will grant you that there are bad reasons and there are good reasons, but...

For people who have been severely abused for years by people who always refused to even acknowledge the harm they've done (when they didn't outright blame the victim), meeting with these people again makes you relive the abuse. Consider yourself lucky don't have first-hand knowledge of how that feels, and try showing your gratitude to God by developing some compassion.

Look, I'm very sorry for your loss, but there may be a side to your late husband that you know nothing about. I would urge you not to judge his children unless you know a lot more about the "whatever".

@Chris #10
"People are lazy and sedentary enough without having a hip-high stool located within arms reach to park their fat asses while at work."
You evidently have no idea of the kind of pain and physical damage involved here, you probably compare it to your own tiredness when you've walked a little too much.

People can suffer from all kinds of ailments, which can turn standing for eight hours into a physical hazard. They don't become fat, lazy asses because of that, especially since the problem is easily fixable - a cash register can be operated just as well sitting on a stool as standing - probably better. Demanding that they endure slow torture when it is not essential to the job IS a cruel and unusual punishment, especially since it may be the only job they can get.

@Alexandra #11
"It's not up to employers to change the job duties and their policies to suit you (unless of course it's actually dangerous), it's up to you to find a job that you are able to do."
I frankly see absolutely no reason at all why cashiers couldn't perform their job perfectly well sitting on a stool instead of standing. Many of them actually do, as there are some employers with enough consideration to allow the use of a stool. And I find you quite cavalier of the opportunities that may exist for people old enough to have painful feet... You make it sound like there are jobs galore for people who are 50+. People get the jobs they can find. And watch it - you may one of them one day.

@Lisa #19
Keep in mind that people like your evil BIL who cut off their parents out of vindictive nastiness may end up being cut off by their own children, this time for good reason.

LizzieDavies, Christine, how did these freaks of nature that served as your parents treat their own parents? Probably not too well. Lizzie, 15 minutes of clapping and a standing ovation to you for not letting that stinking SOB ruin your life. You may have horrible memories of your past, but living a happy and fulfilled life is the best revenge. I'm not gonna say what I think should be done to him, posters will call me a potty-mouth again. ;-D

Welcome to new posters , btw!

@Jennylee #22 & Carla #25
"for the parent to say it just happened out of the blue and they have no idea why? Sorry, can't buy that."
"Two of their children are happy and successful adults who adore them. One of them had problems from early adolescence and is now estranged from them. No one knows exactly why."

Occasionally, someone develops a mental illness at the onset of puberty. It will be the exception and Jennylee, you're right that in most cases the parent will know why they were cut off, even if they pretend not to... but there are exceptions to everything.

@Patty Bear #30
"Maybe if he had actually apologized sincerely years ago it would have helped, but to wait until he was dying.......too little, too late."
Not to mention that wording and phrasing such as "his desperate need to be forgiven for "whatever", or "I apologize for anything I might have done that may have offended you." doesn't exactly convey tons and tons of sincere remorse. Pretty generic of you ask me! As in, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Now gimme what I want".

@Soozan #34
I'm sorry for what your brother put your parents through. I feel sorry for his wife, and especially his children, who do not choose to be with him.

@jennylee #36
"I think parents tend to bypass the tiny things, because they desperately hope that they are wrong, and that their kid is OK."
Yes they do, especially since the "tiny things" remain tiny with the majority of people, because they're normal. It's like the early (notice I said "early") warning signs of abuse: they're not likely to be different than most regular shortcomings, which with most people don't evolve into abuse and, at the very early stage, they won't be anything big enough to dump someone about... until there is something else to go with it, and then it's not just a shortcoming, it's a symptom of something bigger.

@Lisa #39
"I agree that it's pretty rare that someone literally has NO CLUE why someone has cut him/her out of his/her life."
And yet it occasionally happens.

Years ago, someone I thought was a friend from university did that to me. Now this is someone with whom there was some history. We had been friends for some time, and then, there was a production we were both in, and where she chose to believe the tall tales ones of the singers was spinning and go with that crowd. Fine with me, you choose who you want to associate with. In a later production I was not part of but that singer was, she got to realise where the real source of the trouble was. Later in front of a coffee when we discussed the episode, she admitted she had made the mistake of following the wrong crowd, apologised profusely and I had truly forgiven her.

Fast forward a couple of years and, one day as I'm trying to call her, I find that her phone line is no longer in service. I grew a bit worried, since she was not all that young and had some health issues... I called her place of work, where I was informed rather huffily by the receptionist that if I didn't have her new number, it was perhaps because the woman had not deemed it suitable to give it to me. I don't remember what else she said, but the vibe that I was likely one of the people she was trying to clean her life of was unmistakable.

I did mention politely that if that was the case, I certainly had no idea why she would want to do that, and left a message for her to call me back. She called me back at a time I wasn't in, left a message on my voice mail that we should go have a coffee sometime soon... but didn't leave her number and never called back. WTF?

Fast forward yet another couple of years, and I hear my name called as I was waiting for the subway. She's all congeniality and acting like nothing ever happened. Then she gives me her phone number, urging me to call her. Is this one of those numbers that'll go unlisted without warning, I asked in a very soft voice. Well, I'm the one who called you out first, wasn't I, she answered almost huffily - you'd think she was the one with a complaint.

I took the number but didn't use it. Later when I looked for it, I found I had lost it. Must be some Freudian thing at work. Well, I later reflected that *I* had never changed phone number and I was listed in the book if she ever lost it... She never called me herself.

To this day, I still have no idea why I suddenly became persona non gratta in her life. Aw well. So it does happen - I guess that's the exception to the rule I was mentioning earlier on!

Re: Lise Brouillette
"I frankly see absolutely no reason at all why cashiers couldn't perform their job perfectly well sitting on a stool instead of standing."

The cashiers you cross paths with must be different then the ones here. Every retail cashier I interact with has to do a lot of moving around and reaching - grabbing items off the moving belt or counter, walking around or reaching over the counter to scan large items, taking a step or two to grab a bag and put the items in it and reaching to hand the bag to the customer or again walking around to place it in a cart. Just these movements along with many other tasks that take the cashier across the entire behind the counter work area would make it difficult to do the job sitting down. I don't see how anyone could accomplish that on a stool without absolutely killing their back from all the reaching and movement unless the entire work area was redesigned with for someone in a sitting position.

The only cashier jobs I can think of where a person could sit in a stationary position are ticket sellers at the movies and people in cashier booths at the transit station, etc. In my area, these types of cashiers are always seated.

Re: Bobaloo
Your reference to Chris is truly mind boggling. Learn to ignore.

To Lizzie, thank you for sharing your story. I'm glad you feel able to relax now that this monster is dead. I am stunned at the prevalence of child abuse at the hands of family and strangers and just don't understand why it is so wide spread. I do agree that abuse issues are a big reason children cut off their parents in adulthood and rightfully so. Congratulations on your long marriage and happy family.

Re" Shaw and Bob
That's funny Shaw because I was thinking the same thing so Bob I went back and reread Chris' post and I am stumped as to what you mean by your post.

Re: EstherGreenwood
Actually, I have seen cashiers on a stool here. While they occasionally have to get up, they can remain seated for much of the time (at least while they're punching the items on the cash), which makes a huge difference at the end of the day. There is someone else doing the bagging here, and if there isn't, the customer does his own bagging.

I myself suffered a severe injury some years back. I was hit by a car on my way to work (I had priority) and hit from behind by the car's bumper as I was trying to run away when I realised he wasn't stopping. I was hit on the Achille's tendon, which was destoyed - I was literally hamstrung. If not for modern orthopedic surgery, I wouldn't have walked again (not to mention that my career as an Irish dance competitor was abruptly terminated).

Thanks to a total surgical reconstruction, three months in a cast and 18 months of physiotherapy, I can walk normally and even dance (for fun only and within bounds of reason), but I cannot stand for long at a time. More than three minutes becomes increasingly uncomfortable and then painful.

So, as someone suffering from foot issues, I can assure you that these minutes stolen sitting on the stool instead of standing make a huge difference at the end of the day. As in, between being merely dead tired after work, or being forced to resign from the job. I know, because this is pretty much my situation when I work street sales. I realise people with normal feet won't realise how crucial the difference may be, but trust me on this.

LW2: Tell the boss it's time to hire a real cleaning service. It's ridiculous to expect your employees to clean the office so you, the boss, can save cash on what is a tax-deductible business expense. I clean up after myself and maintain a clean area in my office, but if my boss told me I had to scrub the toilet as part of my job, I'd find another job. I finished college so I wouldn't have to scrub toilets. If the owner wants to save that much money, HE should scrub the toilets.

Re: Lise Brouillette

Sorry to hear about your injuries and ongoing foot pain! I think most people here in the U.S. would qualify for Social Security Disability under those circumstances if they had been working a job that required so much standing prior to the accident. Naturally there are exceptions and people who are forced to get another job when they legitimately can't work due to age and other issues. Also the Social Security Disability system is rife with fraud, ineptitude and rip offs to the taxpayer. Everyone I know who has made a successful claim was faking it or had ailments no different from the many others who still work for a living.

Re: EstherGreenwood
Unfortunately, the job I had when I was hit involved sitting all day because I was a dictaphone typist. Also unfortunately, I lost the job over the accident.

@Lise Brouillette

Sorry to hear that Lise. Sounds like a very tough break. I hear (or more accurately read) that you are an accomplished jewelry artist now though, so I guess you successfully rebuilt your life and made the best of a bad situation :)

Re: EstherGreenwood
Thank you for your concern, I'm trying hard to make the best of it. Already that this is not a field where I'm likely to get rich, but on top of everything else, business tanked several years ago, going and still going from bad to worse because of all kinds of factors: the renovations on St-Laurent street killed business for the stores and the street sales, there were renovations for years at Tam Tam that brought business down by 75% because the temporary set-up completely changed the dynamic, now that they're finished and that we're back in place, it never went back to previous levels because there are almost no tourists left (they're the ones who buy) because of the American economy, the plunging US dollar, the additional documents needed to get through the border now because of 9/11... Etc etc etc etc.

The gist of it is that I'm so busy chasing money that I have time for nothing else. I WOULD have a venue to stage the opera I've been working on, but there are so many hurdles on the way... I just can't can't find the money to get my piano tuned at this moment, I can't compose without it and it's not playable right now. I'm hoping I can pay for that with my income tax refund, but I have to get the figures out for the friend who is doing them for me - this week's project.

And this is not a complaint, btw - in spite of all the viciious attacks from trolls about me being on welfare and how I should find a "real" job at my age, I'm very grateful that I live in a country where the social net (to which I contributed for years when I was working) is there to pick me up, now that I'm making so little with jewellery that I'm actually eligible to welfare!

@Lise Brouillette
Sorry to hear the business climate has changed so unfavorably. My business is not dependent on tourism, but I operate a small business that nearly went under during the last two recessions so I feel your pain. The "little guy" has no control over the macroeconomic tidal waves we are subject to in these times and so often has their ability to make a living either severely curtailed or eliminated.

I've had to re-work every aspect of the business, especially sales channels, to stay afloat during the virtual elimination of the U.S. manufacturing base from 1990 to present (yes I know manufacturing is experiencing a renaissance in some sectors) and the elimination of many retail sales channels for my products. I don't want to go into it here, but if you want to discuss it at Delphi we can compare notes and I might have a few contacts that could help. I still live with a lot of economic insecurity and have no confidence that I will not get hit with another forced sea change and eventually put out of business - just hope and pray I can last until retirement.
Good luck with your opera! I will keep my fingers crossed that your funding comes through. I am glad to hear there is a good safety net still in place in Canada to assist people like you who fall on hard times despite their best effort.

Re: EstherGreenwood
Manufacturing had been hit by progressively hard time, with the conjugation of outsourcing and economic crashes throughout the world, not just the US. And countries on the brink of bankruptcy have an impact, as the trade with them is greatly reduced. Add to that this new trend about "simplification", and there are many people who would have thought notihng of spending five bucks on a necklace, who suddenly start wondering "Do I really need this?"... on the way back from Walmart.

In my case, I also have to contend with meteorological factors - I wasn't able to work a single outdoors flea market last summer, because it's pointless to spend 75$ to be there if there won't be a soul. And there won't be, when it's 95F in the shade. I sure hope this summer will be "normal".

Yes, we can discuss further at Delphi. Let's!