Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - wow, stepson isn't the only one with pent up rage, is he? First off, act like an adult. You don't get to throw a kid out of his own home because he was disrespectful. You don't get to decide to change custody arrangements, which are a matter that was settled by your wife, her ex husband & the court. You & your wife desperately need counseling to figure out how to parent your family, together. Ideally you would have done that before you moved in, and certainly before you got married, but better late than never. My read on this situation is that your wife feels like she has to defend her kids from you, you feel like you're competing with them for your wife's love and attention, and the kids are reading this situation & taking advantage of it however they can. You blame your wife for all of this and don't see your part in the dynamic. Hopefully your counselor will help you see a way out of this mess, but the Annie's are correct: you can't make ultimatums if your wife doesn't agree with you & if you make her pick between you & her kids, you've already lost.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 28 January 2013, which itself referred to the second letter on 23 December 2012.

LW1 - It sounds as though there's been stress between the LW and his step-son from the beginning, and that apparently he and his wife didn't sit down before they got married and discuss how the children should be raised. Teenagers are good at reading signals between their parents and take advantage of it. Teenagers are rebels by nature, and of COURSE they're going to want all the expensive gadgets their friends have. It's very important that parents are always on the same page and put up a united front wiith the children, and it sounds as though these two are poles apart on child rearing.
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I agree with the LW that dicipline is necessary in child rearing, especially when dealing with teenagers, BUT what he describes is not discipline, but threats. He cannot tell his step-son that he has to move out and go live with his father, and I'm not surprised that his wife turned against him on that one. From what he says, both he and his wife are dealing with the children in the wrong way. His wife is too permissive and wants to be a "friend" to her children, while he is being the "evil step-father" and yelling and threatening them.
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When he said there were problems in the beginning, but now it's "worse" indicates that there have been problems with the children all along, and this issue should have been resolved years ago. Family counseling is indicated and they should seek help as soon as possible, but in order for it to work, both parents need to admit that things need to change with both of them. I agree with kai archie that it's better late than never, and if this family is to survive as a unit, they need to get help right away. Both the LW and his wife are going about things the wrong way and the kids are obviously taking advantage of the situation.

LW1 - You don't have the right to throw your wife's son out of his home because he got mouthy with you. And you certainly cannot decide custody agreements. You said in your letter that his father "wouldn't" provide for him growing up and now you want to send him to live with that guy? You obviously can't stand your step-son. You and your wife need counseling. If she won't go, then go yourself. I'm not saying your wife is right, here. Parents need to be parents and not friends. But at the same time, you have no right to kick her son out of the house and tell him where to live. I hope the counseling helps.

LW2 - Nobody has the right to tell other people to clean out their old clothes, get rid of their knick knacks, etc. Unless you're talking about someone with a serious hoarding problem...mind your own business. I personally hate clutter but I have many friends who have clutter and endless knick knacks all over the house. One friend has so many knick knacks that her entire coffee table is filled and you can't put a drink on it. I don't tell them to get rid of their stuff. Their house, their stuff. Not mine...not my business.

The pictures of the teddy bears is not the same as having them. I still have my favorite stuffed animal from when I was a little girl (a dog). I will never get rid of him! He has way too many memories for me. I also have a doll that my deceased grandmother gave me when I was little. That doll has a lot of sentimental value to me and I will not get rid of that, either. Having a photo of them and actually have them are two entirely different things.

LW1, parenting isn't a "press this button and everything is fixed" kind of undertaking -- the initial problems should have been dealt with from the beginning, with you and your wife working as a team. It sounds like, as she was taking this "let's be friends with our kids" route, you let her without really putting up much of a fight. And now, after years of growing tensions, you've blown up. Blowing up almost never puts a parent in a better place, because it represents actions taken when out of control.

So, because you didn't insist on you and your wife coming up with a "team approach" to parenting earlier, the problem is going to be harder to solve. You need to back down from your threat, because you don't have the right to make unilateral decisions about her children. You and she need to talk -- preferably with a neutral third party like a counselor -- and get ON THE SAME PAGE in regards to the children.

If you can't, then you have to ask yourself if you can continue in the relationship, because it will be clear that she isn't interested in having you as a true partner where her kids are concerned (which can indeed spell the end of your marriage, frankly).

LW1: I haven't a different approach to this than my fellow BTLers.

LW, frankly you sound to me like a real JERK. Here's why.

1. You have been living with these kids essentially as a father figure since they were little (8 years) and you still think of them as HER kids. While there is little information about the birth father mentioned, I'm assuming your wife had primary custody (as they were living with her) and therefore YOU had a significant presence in their lives from a young age. Yet, these kids are still HER kids, not yours. You never mention ANYTHING positive about them, but I'm sure there were times when they were growing up that you bonded with them. Or did you? Did you always think they were an impediment to your relationship with your wife? Because that's the way it sounds to me. That the kids are in the way for you. Because at the first sign of NORMAL teenage rebellion, you threaten to kick one of the kids out. Nice.

Dude, I have a newsflash for you (and for any man out there dating a "single mom"). KIDS ARE PART OF THE PACKAGE!!! You either learn to live with them and act as an adult with them or date women who don't have KIDS! I get so angry at these people (both men and women) who look at these kids as some nuisance rather than innocent bystanders to their parents' decisions. These kids likely didn't ask for Mom and Dad to get divorced, they probably weren't wild about Mom living with a guy without being married (another no no for me, BTW) and then when Mom did get married, Step Daddy starts acting like a macho jerk. If I was that kid, I'd probably make the LW's job easier by moving out before he asked me!

2. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to throw a minor out of the house when the primary custodial parent is there. PERIOD.

3. Your relationship with your "best friend" is going to be tested because even though she is your "best friend", you can't TALK to her! What's that about? Have you tried actually lovingly working on the discipline issues with her? I'm not excusing her letting her kid talking to you without respect, BTW. If MY kid talked to anyone the way you describe, there would be consequences. But if ANYONE threatened to kick her out of the house? THEY'D be gone.

LW2, excellent advice -- make sure your kids don't want any of those gewgaws, though -- otherwise, go to town! There are many websites that can help provide inspiration and tips for de-cluttering. I like "zen habits dot net", which gives de-cluttering tips along with all sorts of other "minimize distractions" advice.

LW3, Annies are right, although maybe the tradition is different among your family or friends -- and frankly, in this high-tech but often personally-disconnected world, any excuse for a get-together seems fine to me, regardless of who throws it.

LW2: Well, it was nice you helped your friend, but it's not really your business how much stuff she has.

I'm with Michelle on this (and think we have the same friend although mine is my sister). My sister has treasured stuff all over her house that would drive me NUTS but I'm happy if she's happy. That's it. I'm sure some people look at my house and think "Did she just move in?"

LW3: I still don't see what the big deal is.

Re LW#1----
Something you said is coming through loud and clear here-----"I have raised this kid for half of his life and have provided for him when his own father wouldn't." The unspoken part---------'He owes me. He should be grateful to me. How dare he not be?" And you can bet if that is one of the main things you saw fit to mention in a letter to an advice columnist, it comes across in your attitude to him, even if you have not actually said the words.
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I totally agree you and your wife should be on the same page as far as parenting, and it should have been worked out long ago, when they were younger, because teenagers, even those that are actually 'yours', are a pain to manage. And again, since you make sure to refer to them as 'her' kids, you're not feeling any sense of fatherhood here. You've been with this boy since he was 7 years old, and should have bonded by now, as a father figure. Too bad you didn't work on the 'few struggles' way back when----------------it gets much harder as they get older.
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Yes, you and your wife should be on the same page, and she is wrong to try the 'friends first' thing. But how dare you take it upon yourself to make the decision that a 17-year-old gets kicked out of the house? Not your decision to make. If there is a problem, you discuss it with your wife. Either you come to an agreement, or you realize it isn't going to happen, and you kick YOURSELF out of the house. This is her son--------and it's obvious that you don't think of him as YOUR son. Blended families often work, but it takes cooperation between both parents, and you don't seem to think of yourself as a parent. You can bet that a 17-year-old can pick up on that.

LW#2---
Here is your option: You say to your friend "I'm sorry but I don't want to help you move because you have too much stuff that, in my opinion, is unnecessary for you to have." Otherwise, you help her move and you keep quiet. If you feel it's too much, don't help.
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My mom is the poster child for saving EVERYTHING. She has boxes and boxes full of letters people wrote her 50 years ago. She's saved all our report cards from first grade on. And she insists that if anything is gotten rid of (old books, scratchy old LPs that don't even play without sticking, and so on), they go to someone that 'will really want and appreciate them', not just be given to Goodwill or Salvation Army. She sits for hours making lists of who should get what, and nothing she has is worth anything, they are just really nice memories for her.
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So right now they just sit there. I am executor of her estate, so I will be the person who has to deal with the mess, but even so, right now it's not my business. When it DOES become my business, I will dispose of them in a way that is easiest for me---------have everyone come in and look, take what they want, the rest gets hauled away to donate. The same with my stuff, when I die------most of it my daughter won't want, and I don't care if she rents a giant dumpster and tosses it all. I hate people leaving others stuff with strings attached, like "You have to keep this forever, I don't want you selling it for the money." Talk about trying to control people from the grave!!!!

LW1 -
I don't agree with the Annies. According to them, because you didn't sire these kids, you are to play second fiddle always. If you had only been on the scene for a few months, or if they were almost fully grown at the time you came along, they would have a point and I would tell you to thread carefully (and possibly to not marry this woman). But you've been around for ten years, you ARE the other parent of these kids, even if there is no DNA involved. And as such, you have as much authority as their mother. You're not just a wallet.

Discipline is not old-fashioned. Your wife is in the wrong to think she can be friends with her children and still raise them properly, because parents are not friends. They's guardians, guides and teachers. In order to to that effectively, you sometimes have to do things that are not so friendly. Your wife is choosing the wrong approach, probably in an attempt to compensate for the divorce because she feels guilty. And in doing so, she is shortchanging both them and you.

All this being stated, you overreacted by issuing an ultimatum throwing him out of the house. You may have as much authority as her, but it doesn't cancel hers, and this is the type of decision that you couldn't take unilaterally even if you were the kid's biological father. Back down on that, apologize for going overboard... but no, he still doesn't get the toy, and YOU need an apology too, because he was vastly out of line.

Suggest family counseling. Perhaps is your wife hears it from an outside and professional source she can be made to see the light. And your stepson CERTAINLY needs to hear it from an outside source. Not to mention that you learn to control your temper better than this, even under dire provocation (which you probably were). You wife's idea of parenting may be totally wrong, but yours is a long way from being totally right. Good luck. (You're gonna need it...)

Is your marriage already over? Well, if your wife refuses to see reason and insists on choosing the coddling of her children (and guilt feelings) over you, yes.

LW2 -
I have a lot of books, a lot of records, and a collection of figurines on the book shelves in front of the books. Everything is extremely tidy and well-organised, btw. I do read the books and listen to the records, and no, I don't want just a picture, I want my figurines. Yeah, SO? "So can someone else can enjoy them"? And why shouldn't *I* be that someone enjoying them, pray tell, is there a law?

And btw, I'm in a business where it's extremely easy to buy stuff for very cheap and then never use it. Consequently, I DO go through my closets regularly and edit out what I don't use. And STILL I occasionally get subjected to the "GET RRRRRID OF IT" number. Men don't usually wear purple tops, so I'm assuming the LW's friend is a woman. When it's men who have a ton of stuff, unless they're full-fledged hoarders, nobody bats an eye.

Guess what - you don't get to decide how many purple tops your friend is "allowed" to own. What's next, you'll get into her cupboard and decide how many cans of soup she should have? And lemme get this straight - this is work you agreed to do for your friend, and now you're bitching and complaining because there actually is work? Tell you what - Don't do a service to your friend if the service comes with a judgmental attitude and an editorial. But then, you can't even see you're being stinkingly sexist, can you?

LW3 -
Sorry, but if anyone would be planning to host anything at MY place, without telling me because it's a "surprise", I would be hysterical. My place is not a public space and not all surprises are good ones. You're the one who needs to get it straight.

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@kai archie #1
"You don't get to decide to change custody arrangements, which are a matter that was settled by your wife, her ex husband & the court."
He gets to have a VOICE, yes. It is a matter settled by his wife, her ex, the court, AND the current husband. The court and the ex may not care one whit about the current husband, but the wife ought to, if she values her marriage - especially if he's been raising her kids for ten years. What is he, just a wallet to pay the bills with? It's his house and his life too!

RE: LW1

What a surprise. A man who writes in to complain about his wife is reprimanded by the Annies and attacked by her sexist followers on the forum.

Yet when women have written in the past to complain about their step-children and how their husbands handle them, both the Annies and the drones usually attack the man, saying he needs to back her up and wear the pants.

No matter what happens, the men are wrong and the women are right. Now I get it.

MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.

LW1--"She would rather be a friend than a parent, and as a result, they do not respect either of us." I'll be frank. You should never have married a woman with baggage. Now you're in the no-win situation of having to acquiesce to your wife with regards to how the children are disciplined and she isn't interested in disciplining her children. Like most women in your wife's position, she's subconsciously compensating for the breakup with the children's father by spoiling, molly coddling and basically giving in to every demand the children make. If you try to intervene, you're the bad guy; since you're not the natural father, you have no leverage. Instead of serving ultimatums to the children, give one to your wife: either things change, or you're leaving.

LW2--Everyone has his or her own approach to the management of accumulated possessions. One man's junk is another man's treasure is an adage that comes to mind. Instead of trying to change everyone to satisfy your personal minimalistic approach, try to have a little more appreciation for the bigger, wider world out there. If you don't like cleaning up clutter, then be "busy" the next time one of your four friends decides to move.

LW3--Does it really matter who throws the damn party as long as the requisite gifts are purchased from the homeowners' registry and that no one, god forbid, forgets to RSVP?

Re: jennylee
"Here is your option: You say to your friend "I'm sorry but I don't want to help you move because you have too much stuff that, in my opinion, is unnecessary for you to have."
Huh-huh. The message coming out loud and clear here is, "You don't live like I think you should, therefore I'm punishing you. SO THERE."

Better suggestion: "I'm sorry but I can't help you move because I have a bad back, a doctor's appointment that day or (insert excuse)"

LW1 - Well, sucks to be you, huh? You were with her for 8 years and only married her a couple years ago. Lots of issues that you'd assumed go away. SO MUCH FOR THAT. Guess what... they get worse sometimes instead of getting better! And you're dealing with a sassy teen. OH NO! Newsflash, dude: this has less to do with your blended family and more to do with teenagers. Teenagers suck, you just have to tough it out and do the best you can, it will get better. In the meantime, you and your wife counseling and parenting classes, pronto.

Re: Lisa

I left a response for you on yesterday's column.

RE: LW1 - I think the son is a spoiled brat, and I feel horrible for the step dad. He is **NOT** the bad guy. He is doing what he is supposed to be doing. Setting boundaries. (Although I do agree that where the kid lives is up to the courts, not him.) The reason I know this is because **I** was that horrible stepchild when I was young. My parents divorced when I was 11 and my brother was 9. Both my parents married wonderful people within three years. I knew back then that these people were nice, but my brother and I did everything we possibly could to undermine them in our parents eyes. We were vindictive, destructive and just downright mean, just for our own malicious entertainment. We would get our parents into fights with our stepparents just because we thought it was fun and funny. When we were taken to see therapists, we put on such a show, that the therapists would feel sorry for us, and tell my step parents to go easier on us. We would laugh behind their backs for the stupid therapists to be so gullible to believe our act. My parents were both wimpy losers who catered to our whims, and both of my parents ended up divorced...AGAIN. They are both now old and miserable people. They say hindsight is 20/20, and when I look back, I can honestly say that both of my parents were happier people when they were married to our step parents. I ran into my ex-stepmother a few months ago at a DIY home show (it's been almost 20 years since I'd seen her) and she seemed very happily remarried. I'm glad for her. I was horrible, and I even apologized. I'm putting this truth out there because we as a society have to stop giving kids a "free pass" to be jerks just because their parents are divorced.

Re: Lise Brouillette #15
I know, Lise--------that was meant to be a sort of tongue-in-cheek response, I can't imagine actually SAYING that to someone. (And I HAVE used the 'sorry, I have something else I'm committed to do/I am sick' excuse a few times. I might THINK someone hoards too much (like my mom) but I would never say it, it's really none of my business.)
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My daughter is a big pack-rat, and I've helped her move several times (because there wasn't anyone else to do it), all the time muttering and swearing under my breath every time she left the room. But it's how she wants to live, so---------whatever.

Lise, I see nothing "sexist" in LW2's frustration with all the crap her friend had. (How many men do you know who collect Hummel figurines and beanie babies?) She said it took four of them two hours to clean a friend's apartment after a move and I just read frustration in her letter - she's not "ordering" anybody to do anything, just asking people to take a look at what they surround themselves with so that somebody else isn't stuck with cleaning it up.I think this is a sore subject for you because of all the stuff you need in order to make jewelry - understandable.

And hey, guilty here! I have a bangin' Yellow Submarine collection and my amber collection (jewelry and specimens) would make your head spin. And don't get me started on the boxes of letters and photos....that's why this New Year's I made a resolution (the first I've kept in a long while) to throw out or give away a box of stuff once a week. This really came from the eye-opoening experience of us kids having to distribute, clean up and empty our parents' house. Un-freakin-believeable - and they weren't even hoarders. So far, I've done it and reading old letters before I throw them away is like reading them for the first time. It's going to be a long slog, but better that I do it than someone else. I really think that's all the LW was saying.

Prince-Groom - I say this in the spirit of conciliation - if you look for it, you're going to find it. Don't you think instead of constantly focusing on the sex of the person, you should consider the situation? Your incessant harping and victim-playing actually hurts your message. I have no sympathy or patience for women who hate men - and yes, the feminist movement used to be full of them - but when you become a woman-hating man, you're no better.

Re: Holly #17, I enjoy your letter because it is not from a step-parents view, but from the child's. My husband and I are both on our second marriage. We have a mixed family and we had to set boundaries together. When my children acted out in the way you describe (and they most certainly did), I nipped it in the bud immediately. While the step-father does not have the right to dictate child custody, he DOES have the right to be respected in his own home; a home that he most certainly helps to pay for. I agree, the wife needs to set boundaries and get her act together. While she should not have to choose between her children and her husband, I'm betting the husband will make that choice for her and she won't like it very much. If it were me and my step-children treated me in the way the LW described, and hubby refused to address it, I would have said, I'm done and you are on your own. Lucky for me, my step kids never demanded that I buy them some expensive item and then have the audacity to scream and yell at me. They were always respectful of me because my hubby demanded and expected such. At 17-years old, that boy is not a boy and should know better because his mother should have set those limits long ago. Because respect was the only rule in our house (which by the way covers everything under the sun), we are still married and our children grew up to be respectful of each other, us, and others. To this day, we are a close knit family.

LW2 "How many purple tops do you need?" Well there are short sleeved for warm weather, and long-sleeved for cooler, and sweaters for really cold weather. And there are so many shades of purple that some don't go with the winter pants or the jackets I would wear with them. And some only go with the size 4 pants, not the size 2 that I am now wearing, but what if I gain the weight back?...I can't throw out the larger sizes, so I keep them all.

Re: sarah stravinska #21
Your point about saving clothes in case you gained or lost weight reminded me of a good friend from high school who figured out a system that worked great (if one could afford it----------she could, because she married a guy who made REALLY good money, as did she).
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She fought her weight constantly, and knew she would never be able to stay at the same weight for long, she went back and forth from a size 10 (the lowest) to a size 14 (the highest she ever went). So when she found an outfit she liked, she bought three------one in each of those sizes. Something got tight on her, she just moved to the next larger size. It was never very obvious that she was gaining.
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Only works if you have the money and the closet space, though.

For decluttering help, and assistance with housecleaning routines, I use FLYLADY.NET

re: Holly #17 Wow, thank you for the insightful letter from the kid's point of view. People often feel so sorry for the kids, they don't acknowledge their part in the dissention. And sometimes, kids who are angry and mean can cause a lot of trouble. I wonder if counseling would have even worked in your family. If the 17 year old in letter one is on the same path that you were on, then the step-dad telling him to get out might be the only thing that could save his marriage, yet everyone seems to be piling on him and saying "you can't tell him to get out!" It would be a shame if his marriage was blown up by a manipulative kid, and his wife refused to see it.

LW1 -- Just a few observations:

1) An ultimatum is an "either/or" proposition, as in, "either you eat the dinner I cooked for you, or you can go to bed hungry." The "ultimatum" you offered was not an "either/or" proposition that actually gives the person a choice to make. Unless it's a typo, you told your stepson to say everything he had to say to clear the air, and then he had to move out. That's not an ultimatum. That's a command.

2) I believe step-parents absolutely DO have the right to discipline their step-children, and especially when those children live with them full-time or the majority of the time. But there's a difference between discipline and throwing them out the door.

3) My child is only 19 months old, but even I know this: kids don't just magically grow out of their problems -- the problems simply grow bigger right along with them. You knew this was a problem 10 years ago, and you're only now trying to deal with it? You knew this was a problem for a year (or possibly two), but you still chose to move in with her and her kids? You LIVED with this problem for eight years, but you still chose to marry this woman? Look, I don't doubt for a moment that the primary problem initially was a mother who is more concerned with being her kids' friends than their parent. But you knew that LONG before you married this woman. At this point, you need to acknowledge that you are also part of the problem.

Yours is a family that is practically begging for family counseling, and yours is a marriage that is practically crying out for couple's counseling.

As for "nobody caring about these things when you go"....

Maybe. If this friend of LW2's was without children or relatives or friends (and we know she's got at least THREE), it's possible that MANY people would care about those things when she goes.

My father kept all of our thank you cards, some random girly mags from the 1960s (classic!), etc etc and when he died, we all were CLAMMERING for them. One of the things I got (although I didn't ask for it) was the license plate from his first tractor. To everyone else, it's junk, but to me it's a symbol of Dad's drive to succeed, even as a boy, and I have it over my back door so I see it when I leave the house every morning.

I'm sure we all have that type of "junk" hiding around the house... the thing that would concern ME if I was the LW is that the friend hasn't asked her other family and friends to look through this stuff first. How sad would it be to have these cold hearted, yet well meaning friends just throw away things that have deep importance for others?

LW1: Gee, it sounds like the problem is not so much your wife and her parenting style, but the lack of communication and a united front between the two of you.

I'm going to start with a statement that my sister-in-law once told me once about her relationship with my brother: "We're a team." Let me repeat that – "WE'RE A TEAM!" That means, whatever disagreements they might have on certain issues, they work out a compromise and then, once they come to an agreement on the core issues, they enforce it. (They don't have any children, but that's beside the point – they agree on issues enough so that whenever they face a challenge, they meet it head on.)

I wonder if you and your wife are a "team" when it comes to parenting your children. And let's face it, they are not "stepchildren" (although legally that may be the case) ... you have had a BIG role in raising your wife's biological children no matter what you've thought. A hands-off approach, be it as it may, about the discipline ... but you've influenced them, done things with them and so forth.

I agree with the others – you went too far when you gave the ultimatum to your son after he complained about you declining to buy him an expensive item, whatever that was. I have no problem with "clearing the air" and getting issues out on the table, but to tell him to get out went a bit far.

No, you do NOT HAVE TO buy him that expensive item, but you do need to sincerely and humbly apologize for your words about kicking him out. And then firmly and lovingly (and only after you have unilateral support from your wife) set down expectations that he needs to get a job and pay for said "expensive item" himself, and then state why. (Yes, you could offer to fund maybe a quarter of the cost as an incentive, but that's up to you.) It is more than, "Well, I can't afford it." It is because – and I'm sure this is the case, too – you expect him to have a work ethic and earn his own keep and be a responsible, mature adult; after all, don't you, if you want something bad enough, you work for it and save the money? (And yes – he does also need to apologize for his little tantrum.)

I would agree with counseling, but it's going to work ONLY if everyone goes, and then gets things out in the open. And then a serious compromise is worked out between what I'm seeing is completely different parenting styles.

nanchan (#6):

"I have a newsflash for you (and for any man out there dating a "single mom"). KIDS ARE PART OF THE PACKAGE!!! You either learn to live with them and act as an adult with them or date women who don't have KIDS!"

I agree with the assessment, but I am also not seeing that here. I do think the LW knows the "kids are part of the package" and has lived amicably with them this long, until something – the marriage, perhaps – changed things. And from that point on, *he* (the LW) stopped being a "friend" and began being the "parent." Obviously, it can't be both ways, and in the very least the transition obviously didn't go very well.

LW2 -- Let me guess: your abode is perfectly spic and span with not an ounce of clutter anywhere and you have never in your life kept something for longer than you should have and have never once found something in your closet, under the bed, etc., that you didn't even realize you still had. Oh, and I'm sure there's not a speck of dust on anything at your place, because the very second something has gathered a speck of dust you toss it out or donate it. No doubt you also periodically move big appliances, like the fridge, to be sure to clean behind and under them, as well.

Look: anyone who lives somewhere for an extended period of time is going to accumulate a lot of stuff. I'm sorry you were overwhelmed by the size of the job cleaning her apartment turned out to be. Guess you won't make that mistake again. Get over it.

As an aside: when I gave birth to my son, my parents came to help us for about three weeks. While they were here, my mother took it upon herself to clean out my refrigerator and my pantry. She was appalled at all of the out-of-date food she found. Now, I will be the first to admit that I am not good about regularly going through my refrigerator and pantry to clear out stuff that has expired -- I'm good about getting rid of leftovers or stuff that you can easily see is getting old, but if it's something like a bottle of mustard, I won't notice it's old until I go to use it (and yes, I always check on stuff like that BEFORE I use it to make sure it's still OK!). And let me add that it's not like what she found was alive with mold and maggots. I honestly don't think my fridge or pantry were a whole lot worse that most other people's. Much as I appreciated her help, I was a tad annoyed with how appalled she was, especially since I was pretty darn certain that if I went to her house and went through her fridge and pantry, I'd have found about the same number of items that were out of date. But I held my tongue and instead just thanked her for her help.

Until I happened to be at her house some months later, and I was trying to find a couple of ingredients for a dish I was preparing. And guess what I found? Any number of out-of-date foodstuffs in both the pantry and the fridge. And I wasn't even cleaning them out -- I was simply trying to find the ingredients I needed and happened to come across some stuff that had been kept past its expiration. Now, I didn't find as much as my mother did -- but again I wasn't literally cleaning out her fridge and pantry. My educated guess is, if I'd completely cleaned them out, I'd have found just about the same amount of stuff that was out of date as she found at my place. When my mother came into the kitchen and found several jars, cans and tupperware containers sitting in the sink, she asked about it. I smiled and said, "well, apparently I come by that 'appalling' habit of keeping stuff beyond their expiration date honestly."

So, LW2, it's not that your suggestion that people should periodically do a "decluttering" is a bad one. It's just that I'm wondering if you're taking your own advice.

Re: Holly #17
So you apologised to your stepmother. Bravo. And you're "putting this truth out there because we as a society have to stop giving kids a "free pass" to be jerks just because their parents are divorced". Clapclapclap. Now did you beg forgiveness from your father and mother for ruining their lives? And what are you doing to compensate them for what you did to them, purposely and with so much fun?

Ah, but I forget, they're "both wimpy losers who catered to your whims". And you almost sound glad that "they are both now old and miserable people". You might want to explore that vicious streak you seem to have towards both of them, because you apparently feel somewhat remorseful about your steps, but not about your parents.

Taking what you said at face value, there is no indication that your parents were so wimpy, given how gleefully you brag about what master manipulators both you and your brother were, and how you were even able to fool trained professionals. But everybody's a complete idiot for believing your grand academy award performances, and they therefore deserve whatever they get, right?

Thank you for an informative look into the other window, but... You were horrible as a teen, you admit? I'm very, very sorry to have to say that, but you sound horrible even now.

@Maggie #19
I don't know any men who collect Hummel figurines or beanie bags, but Star War figurines, GI Joes, miniature metal cars, model planes, military toys? Plenty. I know because I sell to them at the flea market. And I know some men whose household would take more than two hours to clean even with four people.

It's not just the jewellery stuff that is subject to the double standard, but whatever else also. I have given the example about the difference of perception between my books and records compared to Mister Trinidad's, even though the quantities and presentation were the same. It's always the same thing: a collection of something in a man's living-room is a conversation piece and an investment. The same thing in a woman's living room is useless trash.

You say she's not "ordering" anyone to do anything. We're not reading the same thing the same way. To me, "Get rid of your stuff!", "How many purple tops do you need?", "How many gewgaws must you have in your collection? If they accumulate dust, you have too many", " Take a picture of your teddy bears and dolls, and you'll have them forever", and "donate them now and let someone else enjoy them", sure sounds like telling someone how to live her life.

This "friend" knew what kind of interior she had and what s/he was getting into. If s/he didn't like the way the friend lived, s/he should have declined to help.

I'm not sure LW1 knows what ultimatum means. Actually, I'm sure he does not. He seems to think it means "I tell somebody to do something, they have to do it, then they have to face the consequence." Um, no. An ultimatum is "you do X, or else I do Y." LW1 has decided to kick his teenage stepson out of the house for being an insolent teenager. That's not an ultimatum, and it's not an appropriate way to deal with a teenager, especially without the support of his mother.

Ooops, I see #25 already made this point. Ah well.

@Maggie Lawrence & Lise B -- I didn't see anything sexist in LW2, in part because I just assumed that the LW was the same gender as the friend whose place s/he helped clean. In fact, because I believe the majority of the people who write in to the Annies are women, I assumed LW2 is female and that the friends were female and the friend they were helping was female. Of course, those are big, whopping assumptions on my part. But at the end of the day, I don't believe either gender has a monopoly on clutter. No, my husband most assuredly doesn't have any stuffed animals he's still keeping around (and I do), but on the other hand, I don't have a whole bunch of baseball hats collecting dust (and he does). Not sure how sexism got brought up on this particular topic.

LW3 -- I can't even believe you cared enough about this to write in about it, and after all that, you were definitely wrong. I have never heard of housewarming party that wasn't planned and hosted by the person whose house is being warmed. But you know what? If you want to throw someone ELSE a housewarming party (surprise or otherwise), you knock yourself out! I suspect a number of people will find it odd, but as it would be a nice thing for you to do for someone, I seriously doubt anyone will call the etiquette police on you. Oh, wait, yes they will, because some people consider this stuff to be on par with rape and murder.

@myname -- I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought, "wait a minute, that's not an ultimatum!"

I think we're seeing the same thing from completely different angles, Lise. I hear the LW just plain frustrated with all the crap she and her friends dealt with in order to help her friend. It's not an "order" when she says "Get rid of your stuff!" It's a conclusion - one she no doubt would love to have said to her friend, but didn't. I know you've often used that example of your collections versus your boyfriend's - but that one example doesn't a trend make. Just because he saw it that way doesn't mean "everyone" does, and your defending your collections against his doesn't mean "the woman's" is considered crap. I hear you, but I think you're trying to use your own example as the universal truth.

Re: Maggie Lawrence
I was ignoring Princess but I liked your response to her/him.

Re: Lisa
No, no gender has a monopoly on clutter but, most importantly, no gender has a monopoly on sexism. I don't care if the LW is male or female. I've seen plenty of sexist and even outright mysoginistic women in my day (my sister-cousin's mother comes to mind), and they're often even more vicious about it than men. You will notice I was using the s/he designation.

Now I'll admit we have no proof the LW would be as bossy if s/he was dealing with a male, but... I know what I've seen so far, and not just towards me.

@Maggie
"I hear you, but I think you're trying to use your own example as the universal truth."
Actually, as I was saying to Lisa, it's not just me. Granted that the few people I know in the same situation does not make up a number sufficient for data collecting. But still, from my point of view, it sure looks like a pattern.

Maggie Lawrence wrote:
“Prince-Groom - I say this in the spirit of conciliation - if you look for it, you're going to find it. Don't you think instead of constantly focusing on the sex of the person, you should consider the situation? Your incessant harping and victim-playing actually hurts your message. I have no sympathy or patience for women who hate men - and yes, the feminist movement used to be full of them - but when you become a woman-hating man, you're no better.”

I don't focus on gender any more than the others on this forum. Yet contributors love to point the finger at me while conveniently ignoring the constant manbashing that takes place. Just look at the disgusting way that the Annies and their hateful drones twisted yesterday's letter and made it about the husband not making enough money instead of the female being too lazy to work more than a part-time. All kinds of absurd generalizations and assumptions were made to support their arguments.

Until you're ready to start confronting the manhaters, don't pester me about my antics. What's good for the goose is good for gander.

@Lise - What makes you think I'm bragging? I'm completely sorry for what I did, but I did it because I was allowed to, I can't change the past, and, I'll say it again...I'm sick and tired of kids getting a "free pass" for acting out while step-parents suffer and bio-parents wimp out. (I have a good relationship with my parents now, too.) I'm in my forties, happily married, with my own children who are well behaved because together my husband and I set reasonable boundaries. My brother is also happily married with a beautiful family. As miserable as they are, my parents are good grandparents involved with my childrens' lives. Why you got the impression that I am horrible now is beyond me. I just think that people need to wake up and realize that when kids "act out", they know EXACTLY what they are doing and we have to stop feeling sorry for them and set strict boundaries. Kids get away with WAY too much, especially those from divorced parents. It's ridiculous.

I'm not looking for anyone to forgive me and maybe, but for sure in YOUR eyes, I don't deserve forgiveness. I doubt my ex-stepmother does, and I'm ok with that. I'm just glad she found happiness after dealing with my brother and me as kids.

All I was trying to do was to let everyone see what is going through the mind of the child when they "torture" their stepparents. They know EXACTLY what they are doing, and nobody needs to "feel sorry for them." If one of my parents had just sided with my step parents, I may have backed off some.

So get over yourself. You think you have it all figured out, but you don't know me at all. If you knew me, and didn't know I was the poster, you'd probably even like me. LOL

@Lise - What makes you think I'm bragging? I'm completely sorry for what I did, but I did it because I was allowed to, I can't change the past, and, I'll say it again...I'm sick and tired of kids getting a "free pass" for acting out while step-parents suffer and bio-parents wimp out. (I have a good relationship with my parents now, too.) I'm in my forties, happily married, with my own children who are well behaved because together my husband and I set reasonable boundaries. My brother is also happily married with a beautiful family. As miserable as they are, my parents are good grandparents involved with my childrens' lives. Why you got the impression that I am horrible now is beyond me. I just think that people need to wake up and realize that when kids "act out", they know EXACTLY what they are doing and we have to stop feeling sorry for them and set strict boundaries. Kids get away with WAY too much, especially those from divorced parents. It's ridiculous.

I'm not looking for anyone to forgive me and maybe, but for sure in YOUR eyes, I don't deserve forgiveness. I doubt my ex-stepmother does, and I'm ok with that. I'm just glad she found happiness after dealing with my brother and me as kids.

All I was trying to do was to let everyone see what is going through the mind of the child when they "torture" their stepparents. They know EXACTLY what they are doing, and nobody needs to "feel sorry for them." If one of my parents had just sided with my step parents, I may have backed off some.

So get over yourself. You think you have it all figured out, but you don't know me at all. If you knew me, and didn't know I was the poster, you'd probably even like me. LOL

"I don't focus on gender any more than the others on this forum. "

*snerk* *snort*

Ha. Ha-ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Oh, dear sweet Buddha, that was hysterical. Usually I don't want to feed a "one-trick pony" troll like Prince Groom (who contributes nothing on this forum BUT his/her tunnel-visioned focus on both real and imagined gender bias against men), but boy, I haven't had a laugh like that in days. Days, I tell you.

So, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for the chuckles, PG. It's a great way to start the weekend, and I appreciate good comedy whether its intentional or not.

@Holly, your perspective is appreciated, but to be fair, while some kids might feel as you do, you can't assume that every kid in a similar circumstance would have felt the same way. Every family, every dysfunctional family, is dysfunctional in its own way.

But still, it was very good to hear your experience, as it did give us another perspective to thing about.

Re: Holly

Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience. For what it's worth, try not to be too hard on yourself. Any parent who lets their children run the show has no one but themselves too blame. I had very weak, ineffectual parenting during my teens and my tendency is to blame myself and take more responsibility for my subsequent actions than was my due. From what I can gather, the tendency to feel overly responsible for things is a common trait amongst those raised by wolves...lol.

Re: Holly
What makes me think you're bragging? Gee. Let me count the ways:
"We were vindictive, destructive and just downright mean, just for our own malicious entertainment."
"We would get our parents into fights with our stepparents just because we thought it was fun and funny."
"When we were taken to see therapists, we put on such a show, that the therapists would feel sorry for us, and tell my step parents to go easier on us."
"We would laugh behind their backs for the stupid therapists to be so gullible to believe our act."

In fact, everything was fine until then and you actually had my sympathy. But then came:
"My parents were both wimpy losers who catered to our whims, and both of my parents ended up divorced...AGAIN. They are both now old and miserable people."

It's quite transparent that you have NOTHING but contempt for your parents, simply because they weren't mind readers. In light of this, all of a sudden, whatever had come before sure sounds like bragging.

And no, I don't think I have you all figured out, which is why I asked question about how you've compensated your parents for what you put them through. I notice you didn't bother answering that.

And your parents are "both now old and miserable people" in post #17. But all of a sudden in post #40, you have a good relationship with them, both you and your brothers have wonderful families and your parents are good grandparents much involved in the children's lives. Why would they be so miserable if this was all true? Something doesn't add up here.

You would deserve forgiveness if you truly were repentant. I certainly didn't get that impression from your post #17, which rather came across as, "Hee hee hee, they were all so STOOPID!". And your post #40 has contradictions. And as for your sorry regrets... you don't exactly some across as very repentant when you call your parents names online for the whole planet to see. Do they have access to that? I sure hope not.

Forgiveness is for people who are TRULY repentant. And it doesn't turn back the clock, and is worth little without some form of restitution.

Re: EstherGreenwood
"Any parent who lets their children run the show has no one but themselves too blame."
I hear you and you're right about that, but whe the parents go see a counsellor who then tells them to back off, they are not to blame because of that.

LW1 - There is a reason why so many second marriages with kids end in divorce. Being a step-parent is damn hard. I disagree with the other posters here who say the step-dad has parental authority, he DOES NOT. He isn't the father no matter how long he's been in the picture. Step-parents have to listen to and abide by what the bio parent wants, whether they like it or not. The kids are theirs and not the steps to discipline and control. A step can make suggestions TO THE PARENT but if the parent doesn't agree, it's the parents call. This is why it's SO IMPORTANT to make sure BEFORE you marry that you are in synch with the bio kids mom or dad so these kind of problems won't happen. Believing it will get better, as the LW asserted is just plain stupid, and somewhat immature...it won't get better.

Re: Holly

I don't think anyone is giving these kids a "pass" to misbehave. I certainly didn't mean that at ALL with post.

And you are RIGHT that people need to understand that children need BOUNDARIES.

However....

The LETTER WRITER (Not you, apparently, since it looks like you did a great job with your family and your husband and you were working as a team) needs to stop blaming the KID for acting out. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about: when I was ten years old, my father married my (ex) step mother and trust me, I tested every one of her boundaries. And you know what? She FAILED every single time. She FAILED because her only concern was her relationship with my father (and his money) and I knew it. She had NO love for any of my dad's children from his "previous marriage" and complained about us all any chance she got. And I didn't even LIVE with her! What a nightmare for the kids in this situation.. .living with a man who will throw them out at the drop of a teenage temper tantrum hat.

When I was about 18, I spoke with my father about my stepmother and here's what I said to him.

1. If she really loved YOU, she would TRY to love us. Like it or not, we are all our father's children and HE was the biggest tester of them ALL!

2. If she had even ONE OUNCE OF HUMOR in her, we'd all give her a break. What happened in my family, one kid would test the step and then we'd hold a meeting and get consensus. Out of all 8 of us, I really tried to like my step mother, but it was impossible. She didn't WANT us around. We cut into her inheritance! (which she lost anyways)

3. Do not DO NOT ever EVER EVER EVER as a step parent threaten your step kids with having to live with their other bio parent! That is a BIG BIG BAD NO NO!!! The other parent is not to be seen as a punishment. My step used to trash my mom to us ALL THE TIME, and honestly, it made us all appreciate her more (plus Mom got her revenge in her own sweet time).

You wrote a great post, just arguing my point again :)

Re: Lise Brouillette

I agree that the counselor telling them to back off didn't help, but adults can't substitute someone else's judgement for their own and then not accept the responsibility for their own mistakes. I still think the lion's share of the blame falls on the adults not the children in this situation.

Re: Mike H.
Good point. But this was a few of my friends' experiences, too. We used to "compare notes" and "trade ideas".

Re: EstherGreenwood
Nice to know someone understands!

Re: Lise Brouillette
Nope, not bragging....simply explaining how mean some kids can be, simply because they are.

The reason my parents are miserable is because they are lonely....they both still miss being part of a couple. Neither remarried after their second marriages failed; instead, they both continued to indulge my brother and me, who (both of us) calmed down a lot after the divorces. What am I doing to repent? What do you suggest?

Contempt for them? Not at all. But I do wish they had taken a firmer hand. I consider myself blessed and lucky to have turned out to be a happy and productive adult and parent.

You've already acted as judge and jury in my case, so I will no longer indulge your ridiculous questions and comments. The only reason I posted today was to suggest that this boy that LW1 refers to knows EXACTLY what he is doing.

Nanchan:
So you get exactly what I'm saying.
In retrospect, I had 2 good step-parents. During the few and far between times that my brother and I acted normal, my step parents would joke and laugh with us, and I remember my step mom once showing me how to crochet. I was lucky. I just didn't realize it. I"m sorry for your experiences, sounds like your stepmother wasn't a good person.

Re: EstherGreenwood
I don't think you quite realise just how much on a rampage these two kids may have been, and how ruthless they were about it. I would be curious to know how you yourself would handle a couple of devils' spawns like Holly describes herself and her brother. Confronted with two wicked brats whose only purpose is to break up their parents's new marriage at any cost and just for the fun of it, I know I would have been at loss for the next step also, and I would have reached out to a trained, professional counsellor. That's what Holly's parents did, only to be told, boo-hoo-hoo poor little kids, back off.

We're not talking about brats being spoiled out of control here. We're talking about two completely amoral jerks, ready to do anything to achieve their ends, all the while laughing about the people they destroyed. These kids were not like that because they were overly cuddled. They were like that because they refused to accept their parents' divorce and they didn't give a shit about anything else.

@Holly
"What am I doing to repent? What do you suggest?"
I have no idea how you can make it up to them, I don't know them. But you could start by not calling them despicable names on the Net.

"The only reason I posted today was to suggest that this boy that LW1 refers to knows EXACTLY what he is doing."
Oh, trust me, I knew that. As most people on this board I'm sure. Nothing new here.

"You've already acted as judge and jury in my case"
You ruined your parents' life. It is your fault if they're both lonely and miserable, because you and your brother ganged up to hack at their marriages until you finally won. You know that. And yet you feel no guilt at all, and you seem to feel you owe them nothing. And not only that, but you keep blaming them.

Judge and jury? I don't need to act as judge, as you spontaneously confessed. And you didn't sound sorry at all. As for condemning you, I would never presume to do that. Other authorities know what you deserve, starting with yourself.

Wow, what was the pint of printing letter 3??? Just to tell the lw he/she was wrong??

The Annie's already made their point with the original letter. I think they just printed this follow up to spite the lw.

Re: Lise Brouillette

"I don't think you quite realise just how much on a rampage these two kids may have been, and how ruthless they were about it."

I don't read Holly's post that way at all. I guess i just don't think a nine and eleven year old are capable of enough sophistication to meet my definition of ruthless. Maybe a few sociopathic kids, like the bad seed exist, but I've never met one and I certainly don't think that's Holly or her brother's case by any stretch of the imagination. Most kids will run amok to some degree if given the opportunity - doesn't make them criminal masterminds or even bad people. I for one have no doubt that I can go toe to toe and hold my own with any nine and eleven year old (or older) children. As for the "trained professionals", a shingle hanging outside their door and a couple of letters after their name is no guarantee they know what they're talking about or sadly are even sane and stable individuals in my experience.

Lise (comment 37) What is a "sister-cousin" ? If she is a female cousin that would make her mother your aunt? I googled sister cousin and couldn't find an answer.

Re: EstherGreenwood
I think you're minimising - or you just don't realise how bad it can get. Some kids will indeed be totally ruthless, especially if they're young enough to have no empathy. And kids who were consulting with others for ideas like Holly admits these two were doing can get very inventive - and very cruel.

@Locake
In my case, a step-cousin who counts as a full sister. I was raised with her after my mother's death. I had never met her in my life as she was not even a blood relation, being niece to my stepmother. But we connected instantly and we became exactly like sisters. We're still very close.

She was SO talented... If I had the voice she had, I would have a future even at my ripe old age. With a voice like that, ANYONE has a future.

How many purple tops do you need? That's my favorite color so I have a lot of them. You have to stock up when purple is in fashion. This year's color appears to be orange. Yuk.

RE: Mike

You go girl!

But I stand by what I said. My view towards the letters is no more bias than the Annies or the other bigots who post here. The insane responses to yesterday's husband -- who was hammered for wanting his wife to get off her fat ass and contribute -- was plenty of proof.

Don't like what I have to say? Simple: skip my posts.

MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.

Re: PuaHone
Yum. Orange, MY favourite colour. But I gotta watch it, my hair is celtic red!

Had to laugh at LW3... good luck planning that surprise party in someone else's house! How is that even supposed to work?

Re: Seraina
If they have a key to your house? My daughter has a key to my place, so technically, she could pull it off on a day when she knows I'll be out all day, but I wouldn't suggest she does... And she is unlikely to.

Your daughter has a key to your house, Lise? I guess that gives the lie to some of the people here who insist that your daughter has nothing to do with you..

Re: Joannakathryn
Yeah, she does. This way if I ever end up locked out somehow, she has a key. Also if she needs to come in to mind the cats when I'm out of town working a festival, she can get in. There is also the fact that I'm not getting any younger, and you never know what can happen to someone getting on with years. I feel a little safer knowing that she has a key, and knowing that it won't take her that long to start worrying if something goes wrong.

We speak almost every day, and she has a tendency to call me from her cell to chat when she's out taking a long walk. We meet in person much less often because she works and she lives out of town. But we do get together regularly and then we go do the rounds on the commercial street of my burough. And then she takes me to our favourite Chinese restaurant.