Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW2- "She has ignored me all these years" And you apparently also ignored her. The phone and mail work in both directions. If you want a relationship with her (and the rest of your family), go to the wedding and bring a modest gift. Not everyone lives long enough to see their grandchildren marry, so consider it a blessing.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the second letter on 23 January 2013.

Re: Lucy You can't know if grandma also ignored her grand daughter. Teens are pretty self-involved. Perhaps gramdma sent cards, gifts and letters but never got a response. If so, I would send her one more letter asking why, since grandaughter obviously has her address, this is the first time in (how many) years that she has seen fit to write to her.

LW2 - It's very difficult to understand what's been going on here, since the grandmother doesn't say if she's tried to have a relationship with her granddaughter and has been ignored, or whether there just hasn't been any communication between them at all. What about the rest of the family? If Grandma has attempted to keep the lines of communicatioin open, then obviously the wedding invitation is simply an attempt to get a gift from her. We don't know the whole story, but assuming Grandma has tried to have a relationship with the granddaughter and has been ignored then she is correct in not attending the wedding. If she wants to attempt to have a relationship with this granddaughter, then the note would be a good way to re-open lines of communication. It doesn't sound like an actual wedding invitation, just a "save the date" note.

LW1 - The LW was in denial for a long time, and we don't know what made her finally decide to confront her husband, but obviously she is having real problems dealing with the knowledge. She definitely needs to see a different counselor, since the current one doesn't seem to be helping her. She should also follow the Annies' advice and get checked for STD's if she hasn't already done so. I have never been in her position myself, thank God, so I don't know how I'd feel personally, but I suspect my decision would be to leave the marriage. It doesn't seem as though the husband is willing to work on the marriage, and probably wants things to just get back to the way they were. I can definitely see why she can't just "let the past go". It's not as easy thing to do. I'm sure there are many support groups out there, and checking on line is a good way to find one in her area.

Why is it people always assume they are invited to a wedding just for a gift? I had a friend who recently got married and invited her aunt that she doesn't get along with NOT because she wanted a gift from her but more out of obligation and keeping peace within the family (she wouldn't have heard the end of it from her grandmother and decided not inviting her wasn't worth the lectures).

In this case It could also be that the girl isn't sure how to open up the lines of communication with grandma (let's face it she doesn't seem like the most understanding of people…the tone of her letter is downright bitter) and thought by inviting grandma to an important event in her life might be a starting point.

However, if this isn't the case and grandma really doesn't want to go just do what everyone else does…send your regards and a nice congratulations card (it will only set grandma back $5-6) and the world will keep on moving.

LW1, after so many years of deception and unfaithfulness, it's completely understandable that you would feel uneasy about continuing your marriage, even if it has been a long marriage. First, forgive yourself: it's understandable that we would want to think the best of our primary partner, and if he was lying to you, the fault is his, not yours.

The second problem, not being able to get the images out of your head, is a major problem as well. It will continue to erode whatever reconciliation you currently have. The fact that he refuses to go back to a counselor is a BAD sign, by the way, and it is likely he doesn't want to take full responsibility for his actions and would rather gloss this over and continue as if nothing happened.

If I were you, I'd seek the opinion of another counselor, and really investigate whether your would be better off with or without this man. I'd also insist that he enter more couples therapy to continue to work on the relationship. But, frankly, given what you've said, I don't hold out a lot of hope that this relationship is worth continuing.

LW2, maybe this is the opportunity to improve the relationship? And who says you have to bring a gift? It's an opportunity for you to spend time with several members of your family -- and skipping a grandchild's wedding is the kind of thing that's hard to step back from. It's obvious you are hurt and resentful, but it's hard to see how skipping out on a wedding will resolve that. If you go with the best intentions you may be able to reconnect. And if that doesn't happen, then you can let your granddaughter know -- well after the wedding -- that you are disappointed that she doesn't call or write more often.

But I tend to think a wedding is the wrong time to take a stand or send a signal, because it's very hard to come back from such a slight.

LW1:

I can't believe that you don't even mention any concern for your physical well-being even once in your letter! Being tested for STDs would be my first concern after learning such devastating news about my husband. Perhaps your lack of concern is a reflection of a lack of self respect, and that comes through loud and clear in your letter. Good for you for seeking counseling, because this will help you build up enough strength to ask yourself the timeless question: Are you better off with him or without him? My guess would be the latter. Take care.

Two things I don't understand. What exactly happened 20 years ago that, after 20 years of a faithful marriage, the husband suddenly decided to start seeing hookers and having affairs? And 20 years after she first suspected, why is the wife only now finding "proof" (no doubt it was there before, and she chose not to see it).

And LW2, you are one of those grandparents who thinks grandchildren should do all the work to keep the relationship going. You never call or visit; you expect others to call or visit you. I could just as easily say you have made no effort to be a part of your granddaughter's life. She probably didn't even want to invite you since she barely knows you and you never seemed to care enough to contact her, but did because you are her grandmother after all. Now you're sitting there thinking it's all about a present. Nice. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life alone, I would see this as an opportunity to start anew with your granddaughter. And learn how to work a telephone.

LW1 - You need to forgive yourself. This is NOT your fault. You didn't "make" your husband do this. Please see a different counselor. The one you have now is just not working for you.

I'm sorry to say this, but you said your husband was always "considerate and loving" to you during his 20 year affairs. No he wasn't. I don't care how nice he was to your face. A man who cheats on his wife is not considerate or loving of her.

And the fact that he refuses counseling is a big red, flag. If he truely wanted to fix your marriage, he would go. Only you can decide if you're better off with or without him but you should really consider leaving him. I can't see him stopping after 20 years and refusal of counseling.

And like the Annies said...get checked for STDs.

LW2 - If you don't want to go, then don't go. Invitations are not summons. You're not wrong to feel the way you feel. I might feel that way, too, if someone I wouldn't recognize on the street invited me to their wedding.

LW1--I really wish women would accept the fact that no matter how loving or straight-laced their husbands appear outwardly, underneath it all is a horny dog that thinks of sex an average of once every hour. Also, many "straight" men are not adverse to having sex with men every once in a while too, when they can't find a willing female partner to satiate their urge. Every married woman should have a look at Craigslist's M4M section; it's full of married men on the down-low looking for kinky action of every description and I would estimate the M4W section is mostly married men getting down on the sly. My point is that your husband has had a lot of sex over the years behind your back. When your husband was with his prostitutes and one-night stands, I can guarantee you that he wasn't spending much time thinking about his wife. Honestly, you weren't that relevant at those moments in time. For your husband, meeting an elicit sex partner is completely different than being with you. Day and night. Two different worlds that, really, had nothing to do with each other. Get over it or get rid of him. My suspicion is that it isn't the images of your husband cavorting with strange women that are bothering you, rather it's the idea of being alone.

LW2--Absolutely not. Drop the note card in the trash and don't give it another thought. If a wedding invitation should materialize, mark "deceased" on the envelope and return it to sender. Maybe that will give your granddaughter the wakeup call she needs to emerge from her self-absorption.

LW3--I would suggest "Not-an-Artist" stop fretting about what other people do in their own homes and get a life.

LW2: As Mike H. said, this is TOTALLY the wrong time to decide to take a stand, as well as to reach the conclusion that a gift is all your granddaughter is after. After all, had she NOT invited you to her wedding, I kinda suspect you'd be writing the Annies to ask: "Is it OK for me to rewrite my will to instruct that nothing go to the granddaughter who not only hasn't bothered to see me more than 3 times in 15 years, but who didn't even invite me to her WEDDING?"

LW1: I think you need another counselor, or to be more honest with the one you have. My guess is you told yourself, and your counselor, that you wanted to save your marriage, and that's why you proceeded to "demean yourself" by working to "forget the past" and "restablish the bond." But if your husband refuses to put more than a half-hour of counseling into this, it tells you that he doesn't value your marriage very much -- because a partner who DOES value your bond is going to want to do whatever he can to re-establish your trust. (Although you may need to seek a different counselor--it needs to be one you both feel comfortable with -- but the point is, he should be agreeing to counseling." Either he doesn't value it, or he's convinced that you value it so much that he can do whatever he wants, and you'll take him back.

If you're no longer in counseling, please go back, not to ask "How do I save my marriage?" but "I need to work through what my options are, given the data I have" and "How can I forgive myself for turning a blind eye?"

LW2: Go to the wedding, but give her a cheezy gift, like one of those hot chocolate sets from Walmart.

This is one day I REALLY hope the LW (1) is reading, because a VERY close friend of mine is going through something similar. In fact, when I saw the headline, I thought it could be her. The only difference is that my friend has "only" been married for 25 years.

In her case, she thought she had a very strong happy marriage until one morning at about 3 in the morning, she was woken by a phone call. It was her husband and he was in the county jail, having been picked up for solicitation. She called me so afterwards because my sister was a lawyer in the area and wanted me to call Sis to ask for her help in getting her husband off the charges because "there's NO way he did that, he was set up. He told me so." My sister helped with the case, the charges were modified and basically he got off with a slap on the wrist. A few days later, her husband came home with a new Mercedes for her and life went on.

For years, YEARS, this friend was the envy of many of our friends (most of whom did NOT know about the call). She had a home ON the beach in an exclusive zip code. She is beautiful and her husband was "loving" and "attentive". Every time I stayed with them, they gave me the guesthouse to stay in and a car to drive. Her husband and I were "friends", although he never could really look me in the eye, he was extremely successful and he gave me a lot of good business advice. I respected him as a businessman, but I was worried because I could never get that call out of my head.

Then about 6 months ago, I got another late night call from my friend (you KNOW where this is going). She was in tears: apparently, he had been seeing hookers even after he got caught. He'd also been having multiple office affairs. One of the affairs resulted in a pregnancy and he decided to leave my friend to marry his "girlfriend" (we really have to come up with a better word for that).

This from a man who insisted 25 years ago that my friend have her tubes tied because he "never wanted children". She didn't and doesn't want children either, so it wasn't like he forced her to do something against her will, but he made it a condition of their marriage that she have the surgery.

SO, it was another call to Sis to find a divorce attorney this time (Sis has moved). According to my friend, her "loving" and "attentive" husband is fighting EVERYTHING through the divorce. She's gone through the retainer for her divorce attorney because he's got the money to pay for the attorneys, knows she does NOT have money of her own, and is trying to force her to settle for almost nothing by dragging this whole mess out and by becoming extremely argumentative about everything.

She's getting through it step by step and because she is a woman of faith, who has a good church standing behind her (he had always refused to go). And I wish, oh how I WISH that their divorce situation was unique but it is NOT. ALmost everyone I know who has gone through a divorce, including myself, has had a similar experience. So here's my advice.

1. Leave. He's not going to permanently change. He is one of the dogmen that Chris describes. He may pretend to be "loving" and "attentive", it's a smoke screen to distract you while he go off and does what he has been doing for years. He may try to buy you off with presents, etc. as my friend's husband did. All of this is just meant to throw you off the scent. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by the attention.

2. Before you leave BEFORE YOU LEAVE make sure you have a full list of your assets, bank accounts, etc. If it was ME, I'd probably hire a private detective, because guys like this are notorious for hiding assets. They are afraid that they will get caught and lose everything. Get a detective to monitor his movement too.

3. BEFORE you leave, hire the meanest, nastiest, most cut throat attorney you can find. This guy deserves no mercy. Be prepared to pay a heft retainer and pay MORE than that retainer. Give your lawyer the full list of assets and the private detective's report of his movement.

4. Be prepared for fall out from your children (if you have them) and from your "friends". If your husband is "loving" and "attentive" to you, he can snow others too. Some will blame you for the divorce. Others will shun you. Try to work with a counselor on your own to figure out what type of "story" you give the general public. Your close friends need to know the truth so they can support you through the situation.

Finally, these steps are written assuming that the LW's husband is wealthy. Well, studies have shown that rich and powerful men are MORE likely to cheat than poor men. It's even been suggested that money and power INCITES men to cheat, although poor men have been known to cheat as well, obviously. But if you think about it: if he's clever enough to hide the affairs, he's clever enough to hide assets. COVER YOUR BUTT. Because once you file for divorce, the gloves are ON baby.

PS: And don't do like another acquaintance did and REMARRY the loser! That one still has me shaking my head!

This is one day I REALLY hope the LW (1) is reading, because a VERY close friend of mine is going through something similar. In fact, when I saw the headline, I thought it could be her. The only difference is that my friend has "only" been married for 25 years.

In her case, she thought she had a very strong happy marriage until one morning at about 3 in the morning, she was woken by a phone call. It was her husband and he was in the county jail, having been picked up for solicitation. She called me so afterwards because my sister was a lawyer in the area and wanted me to call Sis to ask for her help in getting her husband off the charges because "there's NO way he did that, he was set up. He told me so." My sister helped with the case, the charges were modified and basically he got off with a slap on the wrist. A few days later, her husband came home with a new Mercedes for her and life went on.

For years, YEARS, this friend was the envy of many of our friends (most of whom did NOT know about the call). She had a home ON the beach in an exclusive zip code. She is beautiful and her husband was "loving" and "attentive". Every time I stayed with them, they gave me the guesthouse to stay in and a car to drive. Her husband and I were "friends", although he never could really look me in the eye, he was extremely successful and he gave me a lot of good business advice. I respected him as a businessman, but I was worried because I could never get that call out of my head.

Then about 6 months ago, I got another late night call from my friend (you KNOW where this is going). She was in tears: apparently, he had been seeing hookers even after he got caught. He'd also been having multiple office affairs. One of the affairs resulted in a pregnancy and he decided to leave my friend to marry his "girlfriend" (we really have to come up with a better word for that).

This from a man who insisted 25 years ago that my friend have her tubes tied because he "never wanted children". She didn't and doesn't want children either, so it wasn't like he forced her to do something against her will, but he made it a condition of their marriage that she have the surgery.

SO, it was another call to Sis to find a divorce attorney this time (Sis has moved). According to my friend, her "loving" and "attentive" husband is fighting EVERYTHING through the divorce. She's gone through the retainer for her divorce attorney because he's got the money to pay for the attorneys, knows she does NOT have money of her own, and is trying to force her to settle for almost nothing by dragging this whole mess out and by becoming extremely argumentative about everything.

She's getting through it step by step and because she is a woman of faith, who has a good church standing behind her (he had always refused to go). And I wish, oh how I WISH that their divorce situation was unique but it is NOT. ALmost everyone I know who has gone through a divorce, including myself, has had a similar experience. So here's my advice.

1. Leave. He's not going to permanently change. He is one of the dogmen that Chris describes. He may pretend to be "loving" and "attentive", it's a smoke screen to distract you while he go off and does what he has been doing for years. He may try to buy you off with presents, etc. as my friend's husband did. All of this is just meant to throw you off the scent. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by the attention.

2. Before you leave BEFORE YOU LEAVE make sure you have a full list of your assets, bank accounts, etc. If it was ME, I'd probably hire a private detective, because guys like this are notorious for hiding assets. They are afraid that they will get caught and lose everything. Get a detective to monitor his movement too.

3. BEFORE you leave, hire the meanest, nastiest, most cut throat attorney you can find. This guy deserves no mercy. Be prepared to pay a heft retainer and pay MORE than that retainer. Give your lawyer the full list of assets and the private detective's report of his movement.

4. Be prepared for fall out from your children (if you have them) and from your "friends". If your husband is "loving" and "attentive" to you, he can snow others too. Some will blame you for the divorce. Others will shun you. Try to work with a counselor on your own to figure out what type of "story" you give the general public. Your close friends need to know the truth so they can support you through the situation.

Finally, these steps are written assuming that the LW's husband is wealthy. Well, studies have shown that rich and powerful men are MORE likely to cheat than poor men. It's even been suggested that money and power INCITES men to cheat, although poor men have been known to cheat as well, obviously. But if you think about it: if he's clever enough to hide the affairs, he's clever enough to hide assets. COVER YOUR BUTT. Because once you file for divorce, the gloves are ON baby.

PS: And don't do like another acquaintance did and REMARRY the loser! That one still has me shaking my head!

All you folks who are advising "Forgotten Gram" to dump the invitation in the trash - here's a thought. Why didn't that granddaughter just get in her car and drive to see the old lady she didn't know? Or pick up the phone and call the old lady she didn't know? Or write a letter to the old lady she didn't know? My point is - children are not born with automatic love for their relatives, especially ones who make themselves scarce for 15 years and then play the victim when the child doesn't play the role of loving grandchild. This old biddy is the mother of one of the girl's parents. Why didn't she go visit her own child? "Forgotten Gram" sounds like she deserves to be "forgotten". She's the one who forgot that it's a two-way street, but she apparently sat at the end of her little cul-de-sac waiting for the world to come to her.

LW2:
My own grandmother could have written this. After many years of being proselytized to *and* being the person who initiated contact 100% of the time, one day, I decided that if my grandmother wanted to speak to me, she would get in touch with me. I don't know if this particular LW sat on her metaphorical throne and expected the granddaughter to uphold 100% of the social obligation or what, but, I just want to say, it's not fair to expect any one person to initiate contact all the time. If I have friends who don't initiate contact at least some of the time, I just stop. Why should family be any different?

When I married, I sent an announcement to my grandmother. Not because I was pandering for gifts; I didn't want a darn thing from her, but, because I considered it a courtesy to let her know that I was getting married.

change to my post above: point 2 should be "make sure you have a full list of the MARITAL assets, bank accounts, etc."

LW2: She's invited you to the wedding, you're offended. If she didn't invite you, you would have been MORE offended. Just go, wear the little corsage thingy that they'll give you, smile and be gracious. Don't look for reasons to be offended.

Re: Soozan

That might be the best present she gets, you never know!

LW1: OK, here's the thing – you've been married 40-some years. He's been unfaithful for, what'd ya say, 20? I just have this hankering some things are in play here:

* 1. He never considered you desirable or "got the one he wanted," and that he married you only because he felt pressured by someone (not necessarily you, but perhaps his own family) to marry you.

* 2. He has always "had an eye for the ladies." Not ones he found undesirable, but the hot college-aged babes and, as you state, prostitutes (two different people, I might add, in case you're considering "prostitutes"/"hookers" and college girls who hang out at the bar at night synonymous).

• 3. The reason he felt pressured to marry you, if so, was to "get his mind off the ladies" and an attempt to set him straight and force him into priorities when it comes to relationships with women.

• 4. Given all of the above statements, he's been doing this for A LOT LONGER than 20 years.

In other words, either he wants his cake and eat it too (a woman to procreate with and get a son to live out his sports dreams, for instance) or he thinks of women as things to help him satisfy his sexual desires – ones he either has been unable to satisfy or (far more likely, I sense) is unwilling to satisfy with you, for whatever reason. Either it's because he thinks he can get away with it or he thinks you're ugly and unworthy of being in a marital relationship.

Yes, there's that statement again – "he thinks you're ugly." Well, it's true, because if he truly loved his wife – and frankly, we don't know what she looks like or anything; she could indeed be short, fat and ugly, or she could be very attractive, who knows and WHO CARES – he would either (if she were ugly) overlook all that and commit to what's right, or never have married "the old maid" in the first place.

LW, this guy is a player, any way you look at it and no matter what he might do or say to justify it. HE NEVER LOVED YOU. He loved himself and his "hot dog" (the one that hangs between his legs) and satisfying his own urges with women he felt were worthy of his time.

I'd say the only counseling you need is to help prepare you for the rest of your life and to help you come to terms with why you wasted 40-some odd years of your life with this playboy, this guy who still wants to have sex with a 25-year-old hottie and who resents you for whatever reason.

Hell yes this is his fault, all his fault. Sad thing is, there's no time machine to allow you to rectify your one mistake: Marrying this MF-asshole.

I'd say nanchan's recommendations about what to do in #16 are spot on. DO EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING SHE RECOMMENDS!!!! The fallout will be painful, but you need to take a stand, and once the truth does come out, he'll be exposed as the liar, cheat, playboy, whatever he is.

LW2: After reading the BTL comments, I'm not really sure what side to take – the "just go ahead and go" side or the "it takes two to initiate contact, so why haven't you?"

Is there some reason why she hasn't contacted you in 15 years (except for the few times you say she has)? I'm sure it's more than because you live hundreds or thousands(?) of miles apart, which is likely here. I bet there's some kind of history between the LW and her granddaughter's family that has led to the virtual estrangement, if you ask me.

In any case, it's up to you. Either way, you do need to RSVP – and IF YOU DECLINE TO GO, just send the card back stating your regrets and not state anything else why. I will agree with the rest that the granddaughter is not seeking gifts, so send a gift (refer to the registries you've been asked to look over, or use it to help you pick out your own non-duplicable gift) and a card and give your congratulations.

But IF YOU DECIDE TO GO, then go and have a good time, and try to patch up whatever bad feelings there likely are.

Chris (#12): The LW says she's been estranged from her granddaughter for 15 years. Assuming the granddaughter is in her early to mid 20s, that would make her under 10 when the contact stopped. I highly doubt most pre-tweens are "self absorbed" as you've in the past claimed today's teenagers/young adults are. If today's 8- and 9-year-olds are vain and self-absorbed, either you're watching too much "Family Guy" or I've been living under a rock.

Let's face it, now that I've said that, there IS certainly a family rift here, plain and simple, and the estrangement involves both the LW and the granddaughter's family. And FWIW, I don't give a damn whose fault it is, because I'd bet it's both side's fault equally.

While I admit there's no reference in LW2's letter that she DID attempt to communicate or visit with the granddaughter during the past 15 years, the tone of her letter indicates that she didn't. We just don't know, and given the fact that the editors tend to chop up the letters, we may not have all the information. That's why I suggested that responding to the "save the date" note she received from her granddaughter might be a good way to open up the lines of communication between them. It doesn't sound to me like Grandma has actually received a wedding invitation yet, and how the granddaughter communicates between now and then might be the deciding factor in whether or not Grandma attends.

LW3: What an ODD reaction to your childhood art on the wall! Skin crawling? Maybe a bit of "aw shucks" or "oh man" but not skin crawl!

Re: Jane (#10)

"What exactly happened 20 years ago that, after 20 years of a faithful marriage, the husband suddenly decided to start seeing hookers and having affairs? And 20 years after she first suspected, why is the wife only now finding "proof" (no doubt it was there before, and she chose not to see it)."

Because:

• 1. More than likely, this has been going on for more than 20 years – my sense is the entire marriage, and possibly even while they were "dating" (I hesitate to use courtship, unless the LW really is, well, someone he really rather would not have married and he only saw her under pressure by others and to "maintain the relationship" and to avoid an "either you get married to her or get out of my life" type ultimatum.)
• 2. She needed hard evidence – not hearsay – to confirm her suspicions.
• 3. Either 2, or he was REALLY GOOD at covering his tracks but finally made a little slip-up (e.g., a phone number or receipt left in a pocket) or someone exposed him (e.g., photographic proof posted on Facebook).

Michelle (#11)

Yes – indeed this is not the LW's fault. I don't care if she's butt ugly – her husband chose to marry her, for whatever faults she had, real or perceived. Once he accepted his solemn vow and said his I do's, it's much like the song that was out 40 years ago by Corneilus Brothers and Sister Rose: "It's Too Late To Turn Back Now." Whatever the woman's faults were, real or perceived, nobody made him marry the LW (even with all I've said about others pressuring him into marriage and with the LW; if he wanted to continue to play around and be the carousing ladies man and try to pick up college women every night at the bar some 40 years ago, which I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case, then let him).

But he did marry the LW, and it was his job from that time on to remain faithful and forsake all other women – including those he thought were more attractive than his own wife, or could "give him more than his wife could or would."

"But she was soooooooooooooooooooo hot, and I couldn't resist getting something from that girl that my wife couldn't give me," he might say to justify himself. All while he's remaining married to someone he clearly did not want to be married to anymore.

LW, so why not just give your husband what he wants? If he shows that much disrespect to you, as all of us have been trying to point out, then why not dump the MF-asshole? Michelle raises a great point here: He doesn't want to go because he doesn't want to change, or he doesn't think you're worthy of saving a marriage with. He'd much rather have sex with hot, young women than remain faithful to you. More than likely, he's always been this way and he would not have been a good catch for anyone.

The only reason he's been in a marriage that's lasted 40 years is, well, I don't know. But had he married any one of his hotties, most of those marriages would have lasted less than two years, I'd bet. Imagine, someone who's been married eight or nine times ... what a loser.

Like I said, this has been going on for more than 20 years, more than likely. Get out now ... and like many of us have said, get tested for STDs.

LW1 -- The advice for you is simple, but actually implementing this advice isn't. Only you can decide whether you can ever really forgive your husband or not. Only you can decide if you are better off with him or without him.

LW2 -- As others have noted, relationships, like dialogues, go two ways. If you literally have not seen nor heard from your granddaughter AT ALL for 15 years, there is clearly more to the story here. Was there a falling out with her parents? Do you live on another continent? If you're looking for permission to skip your granddaughter's wedding, you don't need it -- as someone else at the BTL already said, it's an invitation, not a court-ordered summons. But before you make that decision, please be honest with yourself about why you are estranged from your family (yes, I'm making the leap that it's not just your granddaughter you haven't heard from), then decide whether you want to make this an opportunity to repair/resolve that relationship, or whether you wish to cement whatever damage was done.

LW3 -- If you read the original letter, you know the problem goes well beyond the parents wallpapering every surface of the house with the now-adult child's childhood artwork. The original LW was equally annoyed that his parents continued to tell people that he's an artist, rather than telling people that he is a teacher. Clearly, the situation was as much about wanting his/her parents to acknowledge and embrace his/her decision to pursue teaching instead of art as it was about the old stick figure drawings still being framed on the wall. Sure, s/he can buy a scrapbook or album and encourage the parents to put his/her old artwork in there -- but s/he can't MAKE them do it, so your seemingly simple solution doesn't necessarily address even the surface of the problem. And even if the parents agree to take the artwork down and put it in that scrapbook/album/portfolio, that still doesn't address the REST of the problem. Nice try, LW3, but no cigar.

I'm with the majority. Grandma could have picked up the phone or gotten in her car. Sole responsibility shouldn't fall on the granddaughter, unless G-ma made numerous attempts to contact her to no avail. (However, judging by the tone of this letter, I have a strong feeling G-ma would have mentioned that.) It's also strange Grandma only blames the granddaughter. Aren't parents primarily responsible for arranging get togethers, at least while the child is still at home? Unless this is a later in life marriage (which is very well could be) 15 years ago, the girl was most likely living with her parents; and probably unable to drive. There's just a lot of bitterness dripping in this letter.

@LW1: This is such a sad situation. This woman isn't going to find the strength to leave her husband. It's not so much an issue of she loves him, but rather she loves the security he provides her, and as Chris wrote, she probably fears being alone. I'm sure low self esteem is to blame too. I couldn't imagine staying with someone who had such little respect for me. I really wish she could leave him and learn to respect herself, but I doubt that happens.
P.S. I wonder what her “proof” is and what happened 20 years ago.

Re: Casey (#28)

You're probably right, there, too. My guess is, with you having brought up the self-esteem issue, that poor self-worth and self-esteem have always been issues with her, that by marrying her husband she finally had "something" and that there's been something going on between husband and wife that may have taken away what little she may have had. Her statement – "During this time, he was always considerate and loving to me. I thought we had a wonderful marriage" – drips with her head being buried in the sand, however; I wonder if (affairs aside) he was ever truly "considerate" and "loving" to her, with resentment dripping from his empty "I love yous" and barely disguised barbs that went completely over his wife's head and such.

As for the P.S. – She probably only heard rumors of her husband's infidelity 20 years ago. Again, this more than likely dates back much longer – possibly before the marriage began. "Proof" means hard evidence (photos, videos, receipts, written statements from eye-witnesses, etc.) and not hearsay or second-hand rumors.

Re: Bobaloo

Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit. This has NOTHING to do with LW1. She could be the most beautiful, sexy, trophy wife in the world, but some men just aren't capable or being, or don't want to be, faithful.

I know several men who loved their hot wives yet were apparently not able to not cheat on them. I can't pretend to understand what goes on in their heads, but I DO understand the desire to be sexually intimate with people you aren't married to. Obviously, cheating isn't the solution to that issue, but if you have lose morals and a clueless partner, well, what's to stop you?

And some people are just sex addicts.

@Bobaloo: "The only reason he's been in a marriage that's lasted 40 years is, well, I don't know."
Because I'm sure the wife provides a certain level of “comfort.” I'm sure she takes care of the house, meals, kids, etc., and she provides the added bonus of looking the other way when it comes to his infidelity. The majority of people want a “normal” life, or at least have others believe they live a normal life. His wife provides the faзade of having a happy, normal family life, while he gallivants with hookers and other women. I agree that he probably never loved her (well, obviously, when you love someone, you don't f*ck other people), and that he married her because of societal pressure.

LW1 - From your letter, I gather that your husband has little interest in changing. Which means he could go right back to his lyin', cheatin' ways (though by now he may need Viagra to assist him). Trust has been breached in a major way, and your self-esteem has been damaged six ways to sideways. As Ann Landers used to say, ask yourself: are you better off with him or without him? You may end up seeing a counselor and a lawyer at the same time.

LW2 - There is so much unsaid in your letter (concerning distance between you and your grandaughter, the quality of the time you spent during those three meetings, relationship with her parents, etc.) that it's hard to figure out what's really going on. At this point, I agree with the Annies - send a lovely card congratulating her on her engagement and expressing regret you will be unable to attend the wedding. However, there may be big-time fallout and estrangement between you and the girl's parents if you do this. Weigh your options carefully!

Also, Bobaloo, you're so riled up today! I like it! But I have a question for you. In a couple of your posts, you mention something about the wife being ugly, and that doesn't matter, etc. Did an actual poster on BTL write this, or are you just saying having an ugly wife isn't an excuse to cheat? I completely agree that it isn't grounds for cheating. Plus, when you're in love, don't you typically look past that superficial cr*p. Like doesn't love typically make the person beautiful even if they're not...?

@Casey -- agree with what you said on LW1 (and 2, for that matter), and just want to add that in addition to fear of being alone and self-esteem issues, there's that whole thing where most of us have a pretty hefty fear of change. Let's assume she was in her 20s when she got married, that puts her in her 60s today. She has spent 2/3 of her entire life (and basically her entire adult life) with this man. To toss all that out and "start fresh" -- that's a pretty giant, whopping change to take on at a time of life when most folks figure they've kind of got most of that stuff figured out. These days, of course, it is not nearly as uncommon as it once was for a 60-something to be starting a whole new life on his/her own, but it's still a major upheaval. Sure, a big part of this ties into fear of being alone and self esteem, but some of it really does just have to do with change, and even people with healthy self-esteems and aren't alone can fear that kind of change.

Case in point: my parents. They have been married for just shy of 50 years. Up until a couple of years ago, both were employed full time. Then my mother was offered a retirement deal she couldn't refuse, and my father (who was 70 at the time and had always said he wanted to work until he died and would never retire) was laid off. Both of them, at almost the exact same time, were suddenly no longer working. Both of them said they wanted to find new jobs. Neither of them could imagine NOT working, even though they could afford to just be retired. I watched as they feverishly sent out resumes -- and watched the fear increase as every day passed and no one even called to interview them, much less hire them. I suggested they volunteer somewhere. I couched it as, "well, you can volunteer until you get hired somewhere, and who knows, maybe the volunteering will help you network more and find a job." What I really wanted to say was, "you are blessed to be able to afford to just retire, instead of looking for work, look for new outlets, new hobbies, new friends." But I knew better, so I stuck with the former and kept the latter to myself.

End result: it is several years later, and both of them have long since ceased looking for jobs. Indeed, they LOVE being retired. Mom, who was involved with the local League of Women Voters many years ago has gotten re-engaged with that group and also joined the garden club. In both cases, she is volunteering her past experience and expertise in PR to help these groups, so she feels like she is making a real difference at the same time that she is learning new things and making new friends. Dad, who was an IT guy for eons, teaches computer literacy classes at the local senior center, and like my mother, he is enjoying using his past experience and expertise to help others while meeting new people.

If you asked them now, they'd say retirement is just about the best thing that ever happened to them. If you had asked them a couple of years ago, they were terrified. And this was a couple who was (and is) still HAPPILY married and whose respective self esteems were perfectly healthy. Unlike LW1, they weren't contemplating ending a marriage and starting life on their own -- and yet the major life change they were contemplating, to which most people actually look forward, had both of them afraid, simply of the unknown.

It's very easy for people not facing this situation to say, "well, I'd be out of that marriage in a heartbeat" -- and that may be the right course of action -- but that doesn't mean that is actually easy to do.

Re: Zoe (#30)

Well, then, why do men get married if, as you state, some "just aren't capable or being, or don't want to be, faithful"?

Indeed, this has nothing to do with any shortcomings. I think Casey (#33) read my comment more accurately than you did – "... are you just saying having an ugly wife isn't an excuse to cheat? I completely agree that it isn't grounds for cheating." Indeed, having an "ugly" wife (if she is indeed ugly) is indeed no reason to cheat.

Like I said, he spoke his peace the day he said "I do." He could have backed out before. He didn't. Now he's committed.

LW1: this is the closest I've ever seen the "forgive and apologize even at the expense of comfort and dignity" Annies get to telling a LW to DTMFA! And I agree.

LW2: other side: "Dear Annie, I used to see my rather distant grandmother once a year or so at the holidays. Once I grew up she never bothered to call me again. I contacted her a few times (maybe three?) over fifteen years but not once did she make the first move, so I gave up. Do I need to invite her to my wedding?"

Re: Zoe

Agree (30).

My friend is VERY beautiful and her husband is, forgive me, a TROLL. He's short and balding.

My friend has a body that other men often comment on all the time: she is successful in her own right. This has nothing to do with looks, it has a lot to do with sex addiction and/or self esteem issues.

Re: Bobaloo

"Well, then, why do men get married if, as you state, some "just aren't capable or being, or don't want to be, faithful"?"

Societal pressure, financial security, stability, a "cover" (more for gay men who don't want to be out), the desire for children are some reasons. But there are others you aren't considering: love, a desire to be normal, or not knowing that you won't be able to stay faithful. A lot of cheating scumbags aren't lying when they say they love their wives. I knew a couple who went through something similar (serial cheating on the man's part) and he was a WRECK when she finally broke it off for good. Totally devastated. He understood why she finally ended their relationship, but was very unhappy for a long time. And she was hot as hell. Her biggest flaw was that her eyebrows didn't have much of a natural arch -- seriously! Don't misunderstand, I still think he was a huge scumbag, but I don't doubt for one second that he loved her and wanted her as his "main" woman. Some of the women she cheated on her with were not nearly as physically attractive. He really did treat her well and was a good father to their children. He just could not keep it in his pants for more than a few months after each time she confronted him about it.

Some men think that when they get married and settle down they will be fine in a monogamous relationship. And sometimes they are for a long time, until they are "tested" - they get away with it once, and they keep doing it because why not? No one's getting hurt if she doesn't know. I treat her right, buy her gifts, love our kids -- I don't love this prostitute, I just need a little variety. It's so easy! You could be right as well, Bobabloo, but I'm willing to take LW1 at her word that they had a good marriage all this time (except for the cheating, obviously). I think it is a more likely scenario than her being in denial for 40 years.

"Indeed, this has nothing to do with any shortcomings."

But you suggested multiple times that his infidelity is caused by some shortcoming - perceived or otherwise - on her part. What I am telling you is that whether he finds her attractive or not likely has no bearing on his choice to cheat. This problem he has is entirely rooted in HIS mental wiring. If it wasn't, he would have had an affair or two over the years. Men who are bored of their ugly wives don't generally see prostitutes while having affairs for 20+ years.

Re: Zoe (#38)

Well, if you "love" someone, as – in your case, the cheating husband claimed to be with his wife, YOU DON'T CHEAT. It doesn't matter why or what justification you have or what "wiring" there is in him ... YOU DON'T CHEAT!!!! Period.

If you don't want to be married with her, you're bored with her, either get a divorce or get some f****' counseling.

As for the prostitue – yeah, he "loves" the prostitute, hooker, college-age hottie at the end of the bar dancing with the drink in her hand to Ke$ha and electro-dance pop ... he loves their bodies and how much of an orgasm he can get with them and not his wife. (And FWIW, yes, there are some really, shall we say, rough looking prostitutes out there. Their photos often run with crime stories, and recently in my hometown newspaper, a few of them were murder victims.)

And all the gifts, the "good" father he is (while probably grooming his dear ol' son to be the same as he with the ladies) ... the good times, bah! A cover.

You've got to get into your head before you marry that you're going to stay faithful and treat her right and that none of the superficial things – such as her physical looks – matter and that love, faith, hope, charity, ... all those good things are what matter most. Yeah, I'm sure it won't be easy when the guy is "tested," but all you've got to say is "I'm not going to cheat," and that I remember this little band of gold on my finger and what it's for and what it represents.

"But you suggested multiple times that his infidelity is caused by some shortcoming - perceived or otherwise - on her part."

OK, if I'm coming across this way, how do I state what point I am trying to get across – that his justification for cheating (wrong, of course) is because he doesn't like his wife anymore, whatever the reason?

This is in response to all the comments about the grandmother in LW2: I've been that granddaughter, thinking if I sent an invitation to grandma for something important, she might finally give me a chance to get to know her a bit. I grew up wondering what was wrong with me that SHE ignored me, but doted on my many cousins. I finally found out the truth a few years before she died and cut ALL ties with that branch of the family for a good long while. SHE then tried to get me to see her, even going so far as to appeal to my father, HER son, to intervene on her behalf. My response was "You don't get to try to make amends with me out of some need to seek forgiveness because you think God won't let you into Heaven otherwise. You're not sorry for the way you treated me, not really, you're just scared you'll be judged and sent to hell for it"...what was the problem? HER husband was convinced that any child my dad had with my mom would be a bastard by some other man and "not family". My brother looked like every male in my grandfather's family. Me, I didn't look like anyone, so therefore *MUST* have been a bastard seed and therefore was treated like a piece of trash and ignored. So, no, may be it isn't about "the present" and may be Grandma needs to think long and hard about WHY her granddaughter barely knows her. May be she demonstrated she didn't have grandmotherly feelings all of the child's life, leaving the kid to wonder what the hell was up, but now that kid is an adult and may be wants to try again. No one knows for sure, but my advice to the kid would be "Don't bother giving the old cow the chance to hurt you ever again." ME

@Bobaloo, I'm sorry, but people make mistakes, do things on impulse, make bad judgements... so yes, we can certainly say that "If you love your spouse, you shouldn't cheat on them", but that doesn't in any way mean that the reverse is true, that everyone who cheats is not in love with their spouse. It seems unrealistic given that the statistics, decade after decade, seem to consistently show that about 40% of women and about 60% of men cheat. So there *is* something in the wiring, or some other impulse that is part of our construction. Monogamy is a societal, cultural construct, not a natural or biological one.

And whatever you had in your mind when you got married at age 25 may not be what keeps you married at 35, 45, 55, 65... I'm certainly not the same person I was 20 years ago.

In the present case, the LW's husband seems to have been engaged in this behavior long term and she turn a blind eye, even when she had suspicions. You know that this is a common scenario and has been for generations? A wife prefers to ignore her husband's indiscretions because she's more concerned with security or appearances? And that in some cultures this behavior is even subtly encouraged?

The issue, here, I think, is how *she* feels about it and what is more important to her. And I think Chris had a pretty insightful comment, that possibly the LW is more bothered by the idea of being alone than by her husband's infidelities.

And for myself, I'm bothered more by the secrecy and dishonesty than the idea of the infidelity itself. Husband should have been up front with her -- and you're right, offered to end the marriage, or see if she wanted to open the relationship -- if he felt he wasn't getting sufficient physical satisfaction just from her. It would have been much more honorable and would have saved her a lot of stress.

LW1: I am so sorry that you have found yourself in this situation and I hope you will be able to work with a *good* counselor to forgive yourself for remaining in denial for so long. It must be difficult to deal with that along with the breach of trust on the part of your husband. Some women are able to forgive a husband's affair and repair their marriages. In your case, we are talking about multiple affairs and prostitutes over a long period of time. Perhaps your husband is not well-suited to monogamy or perhaps he has an addiction. Whatever the case, I think he should reconsider seeing a counselor as well. You have a hard choice to make. Take stock of your assets and consider what your life would be like without him. Do you fear being alone? Would you make new friends and travel the world? Most importantly, does your husband understand how deeply his actions have hurt you and are you satisfied that he has changed and committed himself to being only with you? Frankly, I would have a very hard time trusting him with his track record.

LW2: To put it bluntly, you seem very bitter, immature and cheap. You have an opportunity to celebrate a happy occasion with your family. Buy the young lady a nice gift, go to the wedding, and wish her the best.

@Mdelwell: Wait. Your grandma wouldn't have anything to do with you, because her husband (and I'm assuming your grandpa) didn't think you were his son's (your father) daughter? And he thought this because you didn't look like anyone else in the family..? Am I reading this right? That may be the most fucked up thing I have ever read...

Re: Mike H (#41):

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. Yes, people *do* make mistakes and sometimes act on impulse. Who hasn't? (Let's see a show of hands here.)

But surely, what he had in mind with marriage when he was – and I'll assume that (given an early 1970s marriage he was in his early 20s on his wedding day) – he at least had a few things figured out with his marriage and how he envisioned it. He might have been thinking about it when he was in his high school years – the, "OK, I'm going to go out with this totally hot chick, we're going to go steady and get it on, we'll sit and chart our course and pray that any hardships along the way we'll be able to get through" ... so on and so forth. Or it could have been that he was conned into marrying someone he didn't really want to marry. Or anything.

Yeah, I'm sure Chris is right that the LW is afraid of being alone. I'm sure that the thought never occurred to her 40-some odd years ago when she and her husband married. I wouldn't blame her a bit, to be honest ... no woman should have to think about being alone in that context. (It's one thing if the spouse dies, even unexpectedly, but this ... .) That's where counseling comes in ... to help her realize that you have two choices:

• 1. You can stay in a sham of a marriage and pretend there is security. Perception aside, I surely see no security.

• 2. You can make the first move, protect yourself and your reputation (likely, what little may be left if my sense of the marriage and her husband are correct) and tell HIM "*I* want a divorce!!!" (That is, NOT LETTING HIM make the first move or bullshit his way to negotiating the divorce his way.) And that the security of her marriage is all a false perception and that she needs help finding it elsewhere.

As for the comment about "everyone who cheats is not in love with their spouse," OK, maybe so ... but it sure doesn't show a lot of love to me, or respect for the love or institution of marriage. I will agree that marriage is "monogamy is a societal, cultural construct, not a natural or biological one," but why didn't he remember that from going to church? Surely, he's gone to church (even in the early 1970s, church attendance on Sundays was much more "required" than it is 40 years hence) and would have learned that monogamy is one of the secrets (just one, there's many, I'm sure) of a successful marriage.

What I can't get past is that, at least for 20 years – and I've suggested likely far longer – he's cheated on his wife as stated above. He's gotten caught, now it's time to pay the piper.

"Husband should have been up front with her -- and you're right, offered to end the marriage, or see if she wanted to open the relationship -- if he felt he wasn't getting sufficient physical satisfaction just from her. It would have been much more honorable and would have saved her a lot of stress."

Well then, why wasn't he? I don't believe for one second it was a lapse or overlooking things, especially given his track record of running around on the sly.

This is just my opinion, but methinks it's because he knew what wifey would say and do – throw him out and not let him get one red millicent in the settlement (i.e., 40-plus years of savings and what not, down the drain). Or, if and when he comes crawling on his hands and knees for forgiveness, he'd get a pair of kicks to the groin and then, as he's on the ground writhing in pain, the wife hovering over him and giving a thorough scolding, telling him he's NOT forgiven, that his "sorry" is a sham and that if he even looks at a college hottie, prostitute/hooker, whatever *that* way again, he'll really suffer royally, financially, reputation-wise and in especially court and wish he was in Hell, since even that would be better compared to the consequences he'd be facing.

In other words, there'd be hell to pay.

Re: Bobaloo

"Well, if you "love" someone, as – in your case, the cheating husband claimed to be with his wife, YOU DON'T CHEAT. It doesn't matter why or what justification you have or what "wiring" there is in him ... YOU DON'T CHEAT!!!! Period."

That's very easy to say (and it's not an unreasonable thing to say) but that doesn't make it magically true across the board because we all WISH it was true across the board. Sometimes people who love their spouse cheat on them. It doesn't just stop happening because you say "if you love someone, you don't cheat."

"If you don't want to be married with her, you're bored with her, either get a divorce or get some f****' counseling."

I agree and have said that many times myself! Also, murder is bad! Now there will be no more murders because I said that. Right?! You get my point - saying it, and wishing it, doesn't mean it's like that in the real world.

"he loves their bodies and how much of an orgasm he can get with them and not his wife."

Bobaloo, you understand so little of the world! It's like anything that doesn't exist in your narrow viewpoint doesn't exist at all. By the sounds of it, LW1 and her husband had a sex life. Most men do not fake orgasms ad nauseam as a long term cover for infidelity. If the husband is a sex addict (which I suspect), it would be like suggesting that an alcoholic dislikes any beverage that doesn't contain alcohol. Coffee and tea may not satisfy the addiction, but they may be fulfilling in other ways.

"You've got to get into your head before you marry that you're going to stay faithful and treat her right and that none of the superficial things – such as her physical looks – matter"

Through my head? Thanks, Bobaloo. Until you said that I was all "cheating is awesome, yay!" Fact is, you can SAY that all you want, but it doesn't work for every single person in every single scenario on the planet.

"OK, if I'm coming across this way, how do I state what point I am trying to get across – that his justification for cheating (wrong, of course) is because he doesn't like his wife anymore, whatever the reason?"

I get your point, Bobaloo, and I don't disagree with it, but it's too narrow and simplistic, and it's not realistic. Simply, saying something is wrong doesn't mean people won't do it (murder, cheating, stealing). Saying something can't happen (cheating on someone you love) doesn't mean it actually can't happen. It's not something to cheer about it, but it's LIFE.

Let me give you a personal standpoint, that's probably TMI for this board, but whatever. I LOVE my husband, I love being married, I want nothing else in life and I am happy. BUT, at my request, we are in an open relationship. It has nothing to do with how much I love my husband, I just like having sex with other people, and DH is not aversed to it either. Before this, I had no intentions of ever cheating, but I knew that some day I would be faced with a situation and that it would be hard for me to say no. I'd like to think I would, but even today, a couple years into my marriage, it would be difficult. And if it happened 20 years from now, and I was bored, I can't guarantee what I'd have done. I'd like to say I wouldn't have cheated, but 47-year-old-Zoe will be a different person from who I am today. Even if DH was still in great shape and loving, damnit, sometimes you don't want the same flavour of ice cream EVERY day, no matter how much you love chocolate-chip-cookie-dough.

Depending on the root cause, an open relationship could fix LW1's relationship. I mean, not now, after all the lies, but at the beginning, if they had both communicated and agreed.

"This is just my opinion, but I think it's because he knew what wifey would say and do – throw him out and not let him get one red millicent in the settlement (i.e., 40-plus years of savings and what not, down the drain)."

Disagree. His wife didn't do ANY of that anyway. He probably didn't say anything because he was in a perfectly good situation, in his head. A nice wife at home, and lots on the side. As long as his wife doesn't say anything, what is there to worry about? You have no idea how many men are quite brazen with their cheating because they don't think their wives will leave them, and this may have been the case for LW1 who indeed continued to play along for quite some time before confronting him.

Dammit, Bobaloo! Do you think you can write a single post without talking about "hotties", "hot women" "hot college women" etc., etc.? You're getting wet fingerprints all over the screen!

Okay, I know you're going to think you're being piled on now. I just think your paper came out yesterday so now you've got all this time on your hands, but really - it's one thing to theorize about marriage, but it's better if you've actually had some experience so you know what you're talking about.

LW1's husband may very well have thought he "loved" his wife when he married her. Maybe, in his own way, he still does. As Mike pointed out, monogamy is a social construct - especially for men! - not a natural one. I personally knew a man, a very good family friend who worked on the road and had multiple lovers in every town for years. And he was a good father and provider and husband (when he was home) and loved his wife. The two things had nothing to do with each other. And because he knew - as most men do - that his wife would never see it that way, for good reason, he was very careful.

Obviously, this is not the model or the ideal and I, myself, would not be happy if it were my husband. But I do know that it had nothing to do with his wife's looks or capabilities. It was him and his need for sex (and he was attractive enough to not have to work too hard at it.) That's just a case in point.

I don't know where, besides your fevered little brain, you're getting the whole scenario of him "crawling on his hands and knees and getting kicked in the groin..." Nothing this LW says sounds like she's even close to the type who would do that.

It's really only been in the last half a century that society in general started acting shocked when men were discovered to be having affairs. JFK, to name one high profile example, was a notorious womanizer and the press knew it - everyone around him knew it - and protected him. And it certainly had nothing to do with his wife being "ugly" or unsuitable. It was the times.

Re: Maggie

"You're getting wet fingerprints all over the screen!" Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Re JFK, I have heard that he was a poor sex partner and was probably a sex addict - quantity over quality. It seems glamorous but from what I understand it feels like you are always chasing after a feeling of sexual fulfillment but are never quite able to reach it. Or maybe he was just the president and didn't give a crap!

Bobaloo,
Nah, I'm not sure I buy it that it was going on for their whole marriage. Maybe, but the LW said she had found "proof" that her husband of more than 40 years had been cheating for 20 years, and that he then confessed to 20 years as well. Seriously, if she already has "proof" of 20 years, and he's already confessed to such (in for a dollar, in for a pound), don't you think she would at least susupect HERSELF that it had gone on longer than that, and say so? Yet she seems very clear that it was twenty (20) years.
.
And secondly, don't you find it odd that the "proof" she found was not for an affair that happened last week or last year, but multiple affairs and visits to prostitutes going back for a 20-year period? That must have some proof! It sounds like the guy must have kept a journal or scrapbook of all his trysts. Or, when she says, "I cannot forgive myself for not taking a firm stand when I first suspected his cheating." I assume that first suspicion must have happened about 20 years ago, and maybe it was a mutual friend or someone she knew who she suspected, and she just got proof now that that affair indeed happened 20 years ago.
As for needing "...hard evidence – not hearsay – to confirm her suspicions" that kind of proves my point. It's hard enough to believe this went on for 20 years with multiple partners without her ever finding any hard evidence before now, but to say this has been going on for nearly half a century, including their courtship as you suggest, do you really think he could be that careful with multiple partners, and she that clueless, for nearly five decades, but then all of sudden, NOW, in one fell swoop, she just found 20 years' worth? It doesn't make sense.
.
I get the feeling something did happen 20 years ago, and it was a turning point for their marriage. Maybe the kids left home, and they found they had nothing in common anymore. Maybe they just got too set in their ways. Maybe they hit a rough patch. Maybe they stopped having sex with each other. Maybe that was when he had his first affair, she suspected it, tried to ignore it, and then he found he liked it, and just continued on. But it would be interesting to know what that something was. I think the LW does know, and that's why she's so clear about it starting 20 years ago.
.
Either way, I think this marriage is toast--and it became toast 20 years ago.

@Bobaloo, I'm not so sure LW would have gotten so physically aggressive as you suggest if the husband had been honest from the start, since she seems rather timid in her reactions to how the scene played out in real life. It's possible him being honest with her from the get-go might have worked out better. There are plenty of healthy, long-term open relationships out there, but most couples keep it quiet because of societal expectations and disapproval. It would have been at least more open, honest, and *communicative* -- and you know communication is one of those things I keep coming back to in various letters, because so many problems the Annies deal with come down to poor (or no) communication, when you boil all the rest down.

Compare and contrast these statements from the LW:

"I recently obtained proof of what I had long suspected"

and

"During this time, he was always considerate and loving to me. I thought we had a wonderful marriage."

Seems pretty clear that there has always been mixed feelings about his infidelity, because she "long suspected" it and still considered her marriage "wonderful".

So I think odds are good that they should have at least *had the conversation* about his desires and opening up the relationship, and then maybe she wouldn't feel so humiliated. Her big issue is with her own self-esteem in being with a man who deceived her and cheated on her.

On the flip side, though, if she'd been part of the decision, if she'd been allowed to provide her thoughts on their marriage being open, she would have had control and agency. These feelings of being demeaned wouldn't be so intense.

(And let's face it, the reality of her situations is that she's been in an open relationship for the last 20 years -- only she didn't know it.)

@Zoe: While I appreciate you sharing your own experience, you have to admit how very different your circumstances are than the one Bobaloo describes. I don't think Bobaloo is arguing that if you sleep with someone else you don't love your spouse (though he may have written that verbatim.) I think he meant it's the lying, deception, and overall disrespect toward your spouse that is proof you don't love them (general you, not Zoe you.) It's one thing to get drunk, slip and cheat on your spouse. Or during a rough patch in your marriage, you turn to another person and you have an affair. It's another thing for 40 years to continuously cheat on your spouse. It's hard to argue he really loved his wife. Though (I'm playing devil's advocate in my own post) you are right, he may be addicted to sex, in which case, it's a totally different ballpark. If you and DH discuss and mutually agree that an open relationship is for you, than great. But you respected your husband enough to discuss it with him, rather than to sleep with someone else. Maybe an open relationship would have been helpful in this LW's marriage, but the husband should have had that discussion before he unilaterally decided it was a good idea.

"So I think odds are good that they should have at least *had the conversation* about his desires and opening up the relationship, and then maybe she wouldn't feel so humiliated. Her big issue is with her own self-esteem in being with a man who deceived her and cheated on her.

On the flip side, though, if she'd been part of the decision, if she'd been allowed to provide her thoughts on their marriage being open, she would have had control and agency. These feelings of being demeaned wouldn't be so intense."

Oh, Mike H. You and I agree on so many things, but you're always, always able to write it so much better than me :) Nicely said, sir.

Re: Casey

I know, it's not the same thing at all, and although the "open" part of it was in focus I also wanted to call attention to the fact that I COULD have cheated some day. Not because I was drunk, not because I didn't love my husband, not because he was old or fat or boring, but because for whatever biological reason, monogamy is not 100% fulfilling for me. If you mix that feeling with someone who maybe has it even stronger (men are programmed to spread their seed), possibly are 20 years into a marriage and are bored, or maybe has loser morals ("what she doesn't know won't hurt her") -- I am trying to paint a picture of a person who loves their spouse yet cheats on them. Most people wouldn't do that with countless other women including prostitutes, but at this point I am more responding to the generalized statement ("if you love your spouse, don't cheat") than to LW1's specific situation, which I suspect has more to do with sex addiction than anything.

Re: Maggie Lawrence

"LW1's husband may very well have thought he 'loved' his wife when he married her. Maybe, in his own way, he still does. As Mike pointed out, monogamy is a social construct - especially for men! - not a natural one."

Oh, he might indeed love her "in his own way" – because she's the one that does the cooking and cleaning and what not ... in other words, as long as the housemaid does a good job doing what "she's good for," he's happy and he "loves her." She falls out of line, ... well, I won't go there, but you know the rest.

"I don't know where, besides your fevered little brain, you're getting the whole scenario of him 'crawling on his hands and knees and getting kicked in the groin...' Nothing this LW says sounds like she's even close to the type who would do that."

Maybe, but then again, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I won't go so far as to say THIS LW is self-assured, but believe me, I've heard of plenty of women who are and aren't afraid to make their husbands grovel for forgiveness, to bare their souls and then the wife says, "Uh-uh, not a chance." (And even if she doesn't say so, I know I wouldn't want to test her in that way and see how angry she gets if I were married to her.)

Jane (#48):

But what would it be that would cause the marriage to "change" 20 years ago, assuming the first 20 years were "happy" ones? Was it the "first time"? Was it something one of them said or did? An illness? I doubt that someone flipped a switch and then, egad, all of a sudden the marriage is different.

Oh yes, it could be a lot of what you describe. Not doubting that. Had the husband just simply said 20 years ago, "I don't think we have anything in common anymore," the wife agrees and they amicably part ... there would be no need for this drawn-out discussion. The affairs wouldn't have happened (e.g., he'd be a single man and be free to do whatever), she'd not be a spring chicken but at least she'd still have time to find a good man), but at least we'd live happily ever after.

But all this time, instead he's covered his tracks and now has finally gotten caught by making one little mistake – what I alluded to earlier, with the phone number left in his pocket, a diary as you suggest ... as I've suggested someone posting posted online (and yes, the college-age hottie doing this, as if the LW's husband was that smart as he's shown by covering his tracks all this time, he wouldn't be the one).

It's not just the sneaking around or whatever justification he might have, it's also his premeditation and figuring out how to "not get caught."

LW2 and the case of the ignored grandma:

I grew up in a family where my interaction with my grandparents was virtually non-existent. We saw each other roughly once a decade, and our contact was limited to birthday and Christmas cards, and chats on the phone to thank Grandma for those cards.

I'm not sure why we didn't have more of a relationship, but we just didn't. The grandparents lived in a different state, there were few visits because my parents weren't big on traveling, and if they saw their parents, it was usually by flying solo for a weekend and then coming back while the rest of us stayed home. Nobody initated contact with us kids. I just took it as a given that having a relationship with Grandma or Grandpa was my parents' business and nothing to do with me. And I grew up into an adult and my grandparents eventually passed away, and that was that. My mother's father is still alive, but in his late 80s or so--I haven't seen him since I was about 13 and I'll be 40 in a few months. That's just how it is in my family.

All I can say is that if you're an adult and your grandchild is a kid, then the responsibility for nurturing the relationship is on you and probably your children, their parents, too. Children don't have their own autonomy. Kids are constantly reminded of the barrier between when it's appropriate for children to initiate with grown-ups and when it isn't. They can't just pop over and see you, or pick up the phone, unless you tell them they can or their parents tell them they can. If you haven't seen a grandkid in 15 years, well, why not? You're the adult, and unless she's 35 now because she delayed marriage and she only made the decision to not see you once she reached adulthood (which is entirely possible), then it was normal to her to grow up without hearing from you or seeing you, and now you're a stranger she doesn't know. You got the relationship with her that you wanted to have, which is none. If you want that to change, then pick up the phone. If not, send your regrets with the RSVP card and call it good.

Re: Bobaloo

"Oh, he might indeed love her "in his own way" – because she's the one that does the cooking and cleaning and what not ... in other words, as long as the housemaid does a good job doing what "she's good for," he's happy and he "loves her." She falls out of line, ... well, I won't go there, but you know the rest."

Actually, I don't know the rest. Tell me. You seem to know exactly what is going on with people you've never met, after all. And, say, why do you assume she did all the housework? Maybe he's a chef! Maybe they share the work. Maybe they hire a cleaner. And if she did do it, why do you assume she ever did it well? Maybe she's a terrible cook and leaves dust on the shelves and has since the first date.

"I've heard of plenty of women who are and aren't afraid to make their husbands grovel for forgiveness, to bare their souls and then the wife says, "Uh-uh, not a chance.""

And I've heard of plenty of women who prefer to pretend everything is perfect despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. I suspect that that is a more prevalent attitude that women who become physically violent, bloodthirsty sharks on the warpath at the first sign of infidelity. And after 40 years of marriage, I would think that the husband would have an idea as to how his wife would react to the news.

Re: lilypants (#54)

The graf that begins "All I can say is that if you're an adult and your grandchild is a kid, then the responsibility for nurturing the relationship is on you and probably your children, their parents, too. Children don't have their own autonomy."

And that's part of it, too. Children need to be encouraged to have a relationship with their grandparents, even if they live states apart. The reason why this girl didn't? Hence my earlier suspicion that there is some kind of rift that drove them apart.

Regretfully, Grandma needed to pick up the phone years ago ... and she didn't. It may be too late to salvage anything.

Ah, I see, Zoe. Like I said, I appreciate you sharing your point of view :) I, also, very much agree that he is most likely a sex addict. If he has had affairs and visited prostitutes, and as far as we can tell, has been sexualy active with his wife, there is probably a lot more going on here than just a horny guy.

Re: Zoe (#55)

" I suspect that that is a more prevalent attitude that women who become physically violent, bloodthirsty sharks on the warpath at the first sign of infidelity. And after 40 years of marriage, I would think that the husband would have an idea as to how his wife would react to the news."

Gee, by that token, you'd think I'd listened to too much Loretta Lynn. (That is, her songs about infidelity and how she'd express her disapproval.) And even if her husband might have "some idea" about how his wife would react ... perhaps, but then again, I wouldn't want to go there, because he might be in for one helluva surprise.

Re: Bobaloo

I don't know any songs by Loretta Lynn. She is threatening physical violence or something? Well, some people talk big but don't act big. Others are outspoken about how they would react and it turns out to be true. But LW1 gives no indication of being anything but meek. Her husband's not an idiot - after 40 years, he would have a pretty good idea whether she would kick him in the groin. And she didn't, so the only one making that assumption (you) is also entirely wrong about it.

But it doesn't matter. Men who conceal their affairs are not doing so because they are afraid their wives will kick them in the groin. They are doing it because it's easier to maintain a lie that keeps everyone happy (or at least complacent / calm) than it is to confront and communicate something negative.

Re: Casey (#50)

"I don't think Bobaloo is arguing that if you sleep with someone else you don't love your spouse (though he may have written that verbatim.) I think he meant it's the lying, deception, and overall disrespect toward your spouse that is proof you don't love them (general you, not Zoe you.) ... It's another thing for 40 years to continuously cheat on your spouse."

I think you've hit it on the head.

Indeed, what you state – the one-time mistake, the one-time rough patch where the "other woman" helps you through it – would possibly be forgivable. But it's just the multiple women (specifically, his choice of women) over such a long period of time ... and his premeditation to cover it up and cover his tracks and make his wife believe things are perfect.

I know I'm not a woman, but everyone, if you found that all out, that he's been lying to you for 20 years and very likely much longer, wouldn't you be very angry and do things even you thought you weren't capable of?

Re: Zoe (#59)

"I don't know any songs by Loretta Lynn."

She's a country legend of the 1960s onward, and an icon in popular music. Surely, you have at least HEARD of her, right? Look up songs like "Don't Come Home a Drinkin' (With Lovin' On Your Mind)," "Your Squaw's on the Warpath" and many others from the late 1960s. Your local library might have a CD of her greatest hits. And yes, in the very least she very clearly DOES assert herself in these songs. (And if you're kidding, ... .)

"But LW1 gives no indication of being anything but meek."

OK, how so? Because during this supposedly 40-year "happy" marriage, something he did that made her believe all this? Certainly, it wasn't being home every night. Something made her believe this. Something. Assuming your assessment of the LW is correct – she really is meek – she may well be clueless and has her head in the sand as to the state of her marriage.

@Bobaloo -- for the record, my husband knows EXACTLY what will happen if I catch him cheating, and it's not far off from what you described. See, I'm starting off with common ground. Having said that, however, it does seem pretty clear that is NOT how the LW would react since, in fact, she has already documented for us exactly how she DID react. I think that's why so many folks here at the BTL are calling shenanigans on some of your posts. It's not that anything you've said is absolutely wrong or couldn't possibly happen the way you suggest -- it's just that you go places with your post that just aren't really necessary or relevant and/or aren't terribly realistic, and, of course, you have a penchant for basically suggesting that the scenarios you suggest are the only possible way any of this could happen.

For example, in your original post and in some of the subsequent posts, you talk about how none of this is the wife's fault, not even if she's fat or has some other sort of shortcoming. Well, of course, you are right -- her being fat or ugly or whatever, even if that is not how she was when they first got married, is no excuse for him to cheat on her. But nowhere in her letter does she ask "what's wrong with me that he would this to me?" or "how did I drive him to this?" or anything of the sort. She doesn't appear to be blaming herself for any of this, nor does she appear to be making any sort of excuses for him.

Moreover, she isn't asking if she should kick him to the curb -- she appears to want to stay in her marriage, seems to think that they are both basically happy in the marriage, except that she can't get the image of him with other women out of her head. She asks how to get over this, not should she end the marriage.

Now, I can understand your desire to tell her to DTMFA -- it's one a number of others at the BTL agree with, as you were not the only one to suggest she divorce the guy. Maybe she should. Maybe she shouldn't. While I MIGHT (and that's a big "MIGHT") be able to forgive my husband for one "indiscretion," I cannot imagine staying with a man who had cheated on me over and over again for 20 years. But that's me -- and it's easy for me to say right now, when I've never been in that situation. Neither of us has walked in this LW's shoes. Whether it's a fear of being alone, a self-esteem issue, a fear of change, or the fact that she really still loves him and wants to make this work -- her decision to stay with him isn't automatically a bad one, just because you and I can't understand why she'd do that.

Mind you, I don't blame you (or others who suggested DTMFA) for trying to convince her that she should get out of this marriage -- she does say at one point in her letter that she wonders if she might regain her self-esteem if she left him, so that certainly opens the door for this whole discussion. But the strident "he doesn't love you and never did" arguments that you made -- to be honest, you just don't know that.

And could you be right that he's been cheating right from the start, rather than remaining faithful for 20 years and THEN starting to cheat? Of course you could. In fact, I think there's a very good chance you are right. But there's an equally good chance that Jane is right that something happened 20 years ago. I know a couple where both parties were entirely faithful for more than 15 years. Then one of their children died in a tragic accident. As frequently happens in such cases, the two parents had such different grieving styles, such different ways of dealing with what happened, that a rift was created. They both still loved each other very much, but they weren't supporting each other the way they each needed to be supported. The wife eventually turned to someone else to get the support she needed. From that emotional intimacy, eventually a physical intimacy bloomed. She still loved her husband, and she never set out to cheat on him. Really, the demise of their marriage was a tragedy that was brought on by the initial tragedy of losing their child. But in your world, she must not love her husband and must never have loved him. That simply is not and was not the case. I'm not saying I think there was some tragedy that struck this couple 20 years ago, because, of course, I HAVE NO IDEA. I'm just saying that Jane's suggestion that SOMETHING happened 20 years ago is at least as possible as your suggestion that he's been cheating on her right from the start.

As you and I have agreed previously -- nothing wrong with speculating here at the BTL -- it's one of my favorite BTL pastimes. But then you so stridently defend your theories, and in the process wind up going down some pretty odd rabbit holes -- and then you can't understand why anyone would call you on it.

@Bobaloo -- and here's another piece of common ground: I agree that anyone (man or woman) upon discovering proof of ongoing infidelity over a 20-year period may surprise even THEMSELVES with the potential violence of their reaction. So, yes, LW1's husband may well have been very concerned about what her reaction was going to be if she ever found out.

But once again, by the LW's own account, that was NOT how she reacted.

Bobaloo, what Zoe said. You don't know any of that, which is fine, just acknowledge a little more often that that's the world playing out in your fevered imagination. And I say "fevered" because it always seems to include "hotties.' And the LW didn't ask us whether or not she should stay with her husband - for all we know she's not reading and doesn't even know about this site - it's just entertaiing to discuss it and every once in awhile someone comes down BTL and gives more info. But this woman sounds nothing but hurt and confused, not like a person on the verge of picking up an axe.

@Bobaloo, there's something about your declaration "Oh, he might indeed love her "in his own way" " that I think gets to part of my discomfort with your comments today... because you have absolutely zero idea of how much love or the quality of love he might have for her -- no matter how much you want to be dismissive and judge him by your standards.

You've decided that since he cheated on her he cannot have "real" or "deep" love for her, because you can't see yourself feeling the same way if you cheated on a woman. But you aren't him, and you don't speak for all men and you don't feel exactly as all men feel.

It's overly simplistic just to declare that there's some simple formula, "If husband does X then his feelings must be Y". Real people are far more complex and there's a lot more variety out there than you seem willing to credit.

Re: Mike H (#65)

But you see, this is not one of those one-time indiscretions. A guy who screws up maybe once or twice in a lifetime is not going to be judged by my "high" standards the same as someone like the LW's husband, who has cheated for years (at least two decades, likely more) and been pre-mediated about it.

I do seem to remember past letters where I've backed off and/or not commented because they seem to be one-time affairs, or times where the man (or sometimes, woman) revisits an old flame and wants to see if that's the one he/she should have gone with. I'd have much more compassion for those "cheaters" than the LW's husband, and say those men have more love for their wives, perhaps in their fingernail on their pinky, than this guy ever did.

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#64):

"But this woman sounds nothing but hurt and confused, not like a person on the verge of picking up an axe."

OK, and YOU know? Maybe this is where the two of us disagree -- how we're reading the woman's reactions. Yeah, I bet there's hurt and confused feelings ... but I'd say there's also a lot of anger there, and if there isn't, there sure ought to be. Whether it is actually her wanting to make her husband pay dearly for his many years of carousing or she gives an ultimatum of "back off anyone who isn't me or else," well, I guess we can agree that that's something only she knows.

Re: Lisa (#62)

"But nowhere in her letter does she ask "what's wrong with me that he would this to me?" or "how did I drive him to this?" or anything of the sort."

Indeed, the letter does not say that. But don't you think somewhere, all women who are being cheated on like this -- especially given this man's pattern of behavior and choice of sexual partners -- she would be asking herself that? Or any woman who is being cheated on would ask the simple question of "WHY?!" That is, "Is it because of a shortcoming?" "Did I do something wrong?" "What do I have to do to get him to love me again?"

For all I know, this woman has plenty of strengths -- sensitive, caring, kind, meek (in the religious sense a la "humble are the meek," not in the "I've been browbeaten into meekness"-type necessarily), loyal, trustworthy, hard-working and able-minded, etc. I would think that this is the reason her husband was attracted to her in the first place, and that would be enough to overlook any real or perceived "flaws."

When she seeks counseling, she should be asked to focus on what she has to offer others ... and use that to get over whatever disappointment, fear, rejection, etc. she's felt since discovering that her husband is a chronic philanderer who will never change, and will forever be that dirty old man hanging out at the college bar or some seedy bar looking for his next girlfriend. No doubt she will ask the counselor, "What did I do wrong," "what's wrong with me" type questions. A good counselor will help her realize the answers to those questions are "no" -- and then (to address Chris' comment way above) help her realize that her golden years don't have to be spent alone, even if she doesn't ever find a new husband who would be willing to stay loyal to her, no matter what.

Everyone:

Look, I'm doing my best to try to put this all in perspective and say basically, "DTMFA." I admit I'm not married and have never walked in this man's shoes, and certainly if the right woman comes along I know I'll never walk this man's path of lying, trickery and deceit. I admit some of my scenarios are far-fetched, but you all should know by now that's how I come to my point, but if the LW's comments about it being prostitutes is accurate, who knows who else he's been seeing on the sly?

Anyone to give him pleasure -- anyone.

LW1 -
Don't knock yourself for "not taking a firm stand when you first suspected his cheating". For openers, crying over spilled milk is futile and counterproductive, as you can't turn the clock back. And then you may also be too harsh on yourself: what kind of evidence did you have back then, enough to extract a confession with?

Out of curiosity, you might want to ask yourself if anything happened 20 years ago that might have triggered a sudden attack of the roving eye, but it could be anything... midlife crisis gone viral, circumstances converging together to create a situation, and he got away with it... and so decided to do it again. At any rate, that was then, this is now, and you can only go forward from right now.

And, speaking of the present, the verb tense you are using is indicative of the crux of the problem here: "has been seeing". I can only assume this means he is still doing it, and the fact that he won't return to counselling is proof that he has no intention of stopping. What you have to decide here if it's worth it to you to tolerate it - the old question again: are you better off with or without him?

How you feel about tolerating it is a big part of the answer. If you feel demeaned sharing him with professionals of the trade (and there has to be the question in your mind, as to why he would need to stray, and in the red light part of town at that, when he has a willing and able wife), then perhaps you should consider that this kind of arrangement is not for you.

Yes, 40 years is a long time to give up on. But preserving a four-decades marriage is not worth it at any price. Only you know the answer as to what price is worth it to you, and what crosses into deal-breaker territory. There is also the matter of STDs.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, you can at least have an honest conversation with him, and see if you can get some answers from him that can help you make a decision.

And... what the Annies said, and I frankly think it might be a bit difficult to "let the past go" when the past is still part of the present. You need a new counsellor, for yourself alone - not because there is anything wrong with you, but because you need a neutral outside party to help you untangle this Gordian knot.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Zoe #30 & nanchan #37
"She could be the most beautiful, sexy, trophy wife in the world, but some men just aren't capable or being, or don't want to be, faithful."
"My friend has a body that other men often comment on all the time: she is successful in her own right. This has nothing to do with looks, it has a lot to do with sex addiction and/or self esteem issues."
Hm. Mister Trinidad's previous girlfriend before me was well put together and very pretty. He added insult to injury by cheating on her with a fat, ugly, bitchy and sleazy woman who knew he had a live-in girlfriend. I never lived with him, but he pulled the exact same number on me. I don't know about his history with whoever preceded the one before me, but that seemed to have been his MO.

I don't know if he was a sex addict, but about the self-esteem issues... On the part of the woman at least, it only has to do with that if the woman is both unhappy about it AND puts up with it. Neither the ex nor I did - we both dumped him when we have proof positive.

Well, if men only cheated when their wife is a dog, Hollywood stars would be the most faithful people in the world, and that idiot Tom Cruise wouldn't have dumped Nicole Kidman for Penelope Cruz!

@Mdelwell
Along with all the possible scenarios that posters BTL came up with to explain LW2's situation, yours is another possible one. I'm sorry you had to go through that, and I hope your marriage is happier than your (extended) family life was before that!

(Your "grandpa" sounds mentally ill. Simple Paranoia comes to mind.)

Re: Mike (#65)

Forgot to add this to my earlier comments, but unlike some of the affair-type letters after long-term marriages, this guy has refused to go to marriage counseling after his one, 30-minute session. He basically refused to admit his responsibility (even though he confessed, he just said in essence, "I did it, so what").

Also why I'm not so forgiving.

Re: Bobaloo

"I know I'm not a woman, but everyone, if you found that all out, that he's been lying to you for 20 years and very likely much longer, wouldn't you be very angry and do things even you thought you weren't capable of?"

Probably! But I can't say I've known any girls who turned physically violent upon learning the news. I am sure it happens, but every instance I know of, the girl either broke it off or threw his stuff out on the lawn or whatever, and I've certainly never known a man to be afraid to tell his wife because he afraid she'd kick him in the nards.

No, I haven't heard of Loretta Lynn...

"Assuming your assessment of the LW is correct – she really is meek – she may well be clueless and has her head in the sand as to the state of her marriage"

I think that's exactly the case. A state of voluntary denial. Not complete blindness but just a preference to ignore it, pretend everything is ok. She says exactly that in her letter, and I think that makes her meek. Women who are not meek to some degree don't put up with suspected infidelity for 20 years.

"OK, and YOU know? Maybe this is where the two of us disagree -- how we're reading the woman's reactions. Yeah, I bet there's hurt and confused feelings ... but I'd say there's also a lot of anger there, and if there isn't, there sure ought to be."

Where are you reading "a lot of anger" in LW1's letter? Just the fact that you think there ought to be doesn't mean there must be. Don't forget that she has had some counseling, she may have gone through initial anger at first which subsided for whatever reason, and now she's reached a stage of some kind of acceptance. We just don't know.

"Or any woman who is being cheated on would ask the simple question of "WHY?!" That is, "Is it because of a shortcoming?" "Did I do something wrong?" "What do I have to do to get him to love me again?"

Not really. I mean, yes, considering your own actions and their consequences is a reasonable course of action for any number of scenarios, but she's owe it to you to vocalize those feelings in this letter. If she felt those feelings, she evidently has come to terms with whatever she decided the answer was.

"I would think that this is the reason her husband was attracted to her in the first place, and that would be enough to overlook any real or perceived "flaws.""

This is where I still think you're way off. Her husband may not be perceiving any flaws at all, at least none that have impacted or caused his desire to cheat. I still don't think the cheating has anything to do with her. Haven't you heard the saying: Once a cheater, always a cheater? I don't think it applies to every scenario, but it certainly applies to some. There are MANY men (and woman) who cheat on their spouse, divorce her, cheat on the next one, and so on, until they've racked up 5 marriages, all ruined by infidelity, because HE was unable to help himself. Nothing to do with the women.

"No doubt she will ask the counselor, "What did I do wrong," "what's wrong with me" type questions"

How do you know that? Really, how do you know that?? Some women react that way, but how do you know they all do, and that specifically LW1 has? And how do you know that she hasn't already gone through those questions and found her own answers?

"Also why I'm not so forgiving."

Dude, none of us is forgiving the husband. Most of us, I think, think she should divorce him ASAP. What we're saying is that you're making stuff up, half of it is unrealistic and the other half is unhelpful. None of what you're saying is wrong, it's just so way off base and narrow-minded and full of assumptions that it's not helpful.

Re: Mdelwell (#40)
Re: Your response to LW2, I know I said that the LW and her granddaughter's family both have some blame for whatever family rift there apparently is ... but don't you think you're being a bit harsh?

And I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying, but was it your grandma who had these feelings that you were a "bastard seed," or was it your grandpa and that your grandma who is innocent and wants to at least explain her side. I do think you owed it to grandma to at least hear her side ... and then it'd be up to you to decide whether her words are legit or absolving herself.

(Note to everyone: Different from LW1. At least here, mdelwell's grandmother was trying to explain her side of the story, and for all we know had true remorse. For shame that she didn't let her speak her peace. The philanderer has none. His refusal to continue counseling speaks volumes -- he likes his hotties!)

Re: Zoe (#69)

"Dude, none of us is forgiving the husband. Most of us, I think, think she should divorce him ASAP. "

And so do I. You've seen that. I think that's the one thing we all seem to agree on.

But I do not think I'm narrow-minded. This guy is a repeat offender, and already we know what at least some of his choices in women are. And how do we know she hasn't asked the counselor the "What's wrong with me"-type questions? And where do you get that I said ALL women react with the these types of questions? I just said it's a question SHE (the LW) will no doubt ask or want to or need to ask.

Look, I'm trying very hard to make sense to you and a few of the others, but I just wonder what I need to say to make sense. Some bland DTMFA and be done with it? That's so damn bland and adds nothing to what's been said. NOTHING!

"Haven't you heard the saying: Once a cheater, always a cheater?"

Yes, I have. Why I wonder if this guy cheated before the marriage even began ... . (Yep, I'm putting on my "20 years my aunts Hilda and Matilda" hat again.)

Let's put it this way -- It just seems like this guy is never satisfied, and that he's always looking for something better. Something to have better sex with, one to one-up his previous experience and to feel the ultimate "high," as it were. Someone who's prettier than the last, or meets whatever desire of the day he feels like satisfying and that his "wife" (because the only way a guy, a repeat offender like this, thinks of his wife is by title only) or previous "conquest" is inferior in whatever way.

The more I type, the more I think this man -- not mdelwell's grandmother -- deserves that place in Hell. This guy is the ultimate bad guy (lack of a better term) and he deserves no one.

Bobaloo, you're fogging up the computer screen again. "He likes his hotties." I think what irritates me about your constant reference to "hotties" is how juvenile it sounds, and you're supposed to be a grown man. And it's all about looks, all the time. I think we all know that you like to spin your fantasies out loud (BTL) but you do tend to go to some absurd lengths until whatever point you were trying to make is lost.
And btw, the saying "Once a cheater, always a cheater" is NOT always true. I know for a fact.
And please learn the difference between "peace" and "piece" and "hankering" and "inkling."
Thank you and good-night

@Bobaloo, I agree, his disinterest in continuing counseling is a bad thing; I said so much, much earlier in today's comments.

That's a separate issue from how often he was unfaithful or how many women he was unfaithful with.

Also, as to the speculation of WHY he's cheating -- that's absolutely impossible to know, since we don't have his input at all. I'm also questioning the speculation of others that "sex addiction" is involved.

"has been seeing prostitutes and having affairs for the past 20 years" <--- gives us no indication of how many prostitutes, how many affairs, and how often. Going to see a prostitute once or twice a year is "seeing prostitutes" but is hardly frequent enough to establish "addictive" behavior. And if he had 4 or 5 affairs over 20 years... that's one affair every 4-5 years. Still plural ("affairs"), but again, not exactly frequent enough to qualify for "sex addiction".

Now, to be fair, of course this seems like a lot to a wife who was expecting monogamy. It's devastating and *wrong*. But it doesn't necessarily indicate "sex addict", either, and it doesn't tell us *why* he's been unfaithful.

(Also, the concept of "sex addiction" is by no means established or agreed upon by all medical and psychiatric professionals, either. It could end up being complete bunk.)

Re: Maggie Lawrence

Re: the use of the word "hotties" -- I've seen others use it, not just me. It's shorthand.

The whole thing to me about a man having this type of an affair is that I find it hard to believe he is indiscriminate about who he has sex with. I've doubted he has "beer goggles" on -- that is, he has sex with just about any willing woman he encounters, no matter how beautiful, plain Jane or ugly they may be. He's pre-meditated (e.g., selective about who he has sex with, be it prostitutes or anyone else), just like with his concealing all this for oh so many years.

And Mike H, agreed that it doesn't matter if he has seen them once or twice a year, once perhaps every four to five years or many more times ... his behavior is still pre-meditated as I see it.

FWIW -- I never thought "sex addiction." I've just thought of it as, "As long as I don't have to spend time with my wife."

Re: Bobaloo
Bobaloo, the reason he went to paid sex in the first place is very likely because he got to choose, it's not like he has to wait to get lucky with some reasonably doable female. And there are a lot of men out there who rationalise, that with a prostitute, it doesn't really count as cheating.

Re: Lise Brouillette

I've run police blotters at other newspapers I've worked at. I've not had to do prostitution cases very often (and I've worked at both small-town and larger newspapers), but for the few I've seen and the mugshots accompanying those stories I've read – I've marveled at why someone would choose them in the first place.

God, those women are rough-looking, to say the least. Legality (or illegality, as it were) and STDs aside, another reason to stay away from prostitutes, IMHO! :)

Then again, maybe the hookers in his area truly are "hotties!"

Re: Bobaloo
The ones whose mugshot ends up in some police blogger, no doubt look rough and roughened up, and keep in mind a mugshot is designed to make you look bad and guilty.

The student guetto for the university I attended overlapped the red light district. My long-time Jewish friend Shirley used to live right in the thick of it, and she even had a store one block from her place for a while. Since one of the things she sold was vintage lingerie, she had lots of "working girls" as customers. Some of them were drop dead gorgeous (if slutty), didn't look strung-out one bit and not at all like the mugshots you're talking about (They were also the most polite). You can't always go by the stereotype.

Also, the LW didn't specify what kind of prostitute. Not all call-girls are 1000$ a night, but all are well-dressed, well-groomed, well-mannered, sometimes quite educated, and NOT strung out.

@Bobaloo, if you've never hired a prostitute, how can you be so sure that men hire prostitutes solely for hotness, or because they consider their wives unattractive? I think you are again making some assumptions, jumping (and jumping high!) to conclusions.

I'll agree that most of his behavior probably was pre-meditated, although perhaps some of this was... more spontaneous than pre-meditated. However, he still made choices that hurt his wife, and doesn't seem to want to go to counseling.

Re: Bobaloo

just so you know and can add into your understand of marriage, a cheating husband, how the wife feels and reacts, etc., let me tell you something.

my ex cheated on me while we were engaged, but i was so naive, i was totally unaware. i met him when i was 17 and i married him young (19) and knew that he had quite a history, but never thought he would cheat on me because he was *so* in love with me. i truly thought that being married would settle him down to one woman.

and, i was a "hottie" but really didn't know it because of the way i was brought up. i had suspicions that there might be other women, but nothing concrete. i was much like LW1 here. if he was being unfaithful, i didn't want to know because he treated me pretty well and we had two kids.

but then, his unfaithfulness was brought to my attention for real, in a way i could no longer ignore. i found out my suspicions were all true. there had been many women, but no prostitutes that i know of. no, these were all acquaintances or "friends" of ours.

my ex didn't give a crap about how "hot" or old the woman were... meaning, the older the better. he was "with" the mothers of two of his friends/co-workers. grandmothers, both of them. but, they weren't bad looking and they LOVED the validation of this handsome young man pursuing/flirting with them. so, into the sack for a mercy-fvck! why not?

all the while, i knew he loved me and i mean REALLY loved me. he loved to be with me! and have sex with me. it's just that, when he wasn't with me... as the old song goes, he loved the one he was with! a college classmate in the dark room of the photo lab... another classmate, at her place, "studying" for a final exam.... it didn't matter. all he needed was about 20 minutes alone and he was satisfied. none of them were "hotties". all were average looking.

when i told him i was leaving, he cried. he couldn't believe it was over. he couldn't believe that i just couldn't keep turning a blind eye and ignoring the rumors... and proof. he was heartbroken.

even after we were both remarried and on the phone arranging a visitation, he said to me (with our spouses on extension phones, listening in) that since he couldn't be married to me, the love of his life, he settled for his new wife so he could have "someone".

he still doesn't get, to this day, why i left. he sees nothing wrong with infidelity (as long as it's his own) and doesn't understand why i was hurt and upset and ended the marriage. as long as his pecker was happy, what did anything else matter? why should i be upset? in his mind... i should be happy because he was only hounding me for sex TWICE a day (*every* day!) instead of... oh, SIX times a day... right? but, since he couldn't be with me 24 hours a day (job and college) then he hounded someone else during those hours away from me.

you see, bobaloo, it takes all kinds of men to make a world. you can't put them all in a little box (so to speak) and wrap it with a little pink bow.