Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 -
You're beginning to despise your son-in-law? And what about your daughter, how is she any less guilty of freeloading than her husband? What the Annies said.

Oh, and of COURSE they'll be "hurt". Crushed. Devastated. Absolutely heart broken. I suggest you learn to deal with it - get a therapist to help you develop a backbone and coping mechanisms against guilt trips. Five years is a long time to live with an intolerable situation.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 30 January 2013, which was also discussed on 7 March 2013.

'Feeling The Void In Indiana' referred to the whole column of responses to 'Your Husband' published on 15 December 2012. The original 'Your Husband' was the first letter on 21 October 2012. A single response was included on 5 January 2013.

LW1 - Someone is going to become upset with you over this but you have a choice...deal with one or all of them being upset for a bit or put up with their freeloading for the rest of your life. You can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs. Tell your daughter and son-in-law that the arrangement just isn't working out anymore and then give them a 3 month deadline. They should be able to find an apartment within 3 months. Be firm about the deadline. In the meantime, don't make life comfortable there for them. Give them an incentive to leave. Good luck.

LW3 - Can we please move on from this topic??

Re: Michelle
"LW3 - Can we please move on from this topic??"
Agreed! I think it's been covered both in the letters and BTL enough to last several lifetimes. There's just nothing else to say on the subject.

LW1, I am afraid you are going to have to grow that backbone. Have a talk with them as soon as you can, and set the parameters you can live with -- because you are going to have to enforce it when the time comes. What you should not do is issue an ultimatum you can't follow through with, because then they'll just ignore you. If it helps, let them know it's because you want to keep the family close and happy, and you are afraid if the situation continues as is you'll grow to resent them all.

LW2, it may have been a bit awkward, but probably not the end of the world. (And do you know your husband was carrying enough money to pay for the bill? Maybe this was his only option of saving face?)

LW3, I'm always a bit amused when some couples assume that having a sex life means only one particular type of intercourse; and once that is no longer an option for some reason, the sex life ends. There are other options and compromises as well.

I feel for LW1, but her tolerance and generosity just made a bad situation worse. Five years has taught this lout of a son-in-law that free loading is just fine, and yes, where is the daughter in this? I think the Annie's overlooked a very likely situation - just because she tells them to pay rent doesn't mean they're going to actually do it. I wonder that she doesn't have a frank conversation with the daughter privately - show her the letter she wrote the Annies, if necessary, and at least try to get the daughter motivated. If that doesn't work, she may have to take off the gloves, if she's capable of it.

LW1: You've been suckers for far too long. And how about blaming your daughter too … why just blame the son-in-law? Giving them 3 months to start with is far too long. I predict they won't do anything until two weeks before the 3 months is over, and then say that they can't find a job or place. I say give them one month to move out, forcing them to start immediately, and then you can stretch it out to two months if necessary. But you've got to insist and not back down. If you give in for any reason, you'll never get them out.

LW3: To be frank, if regular sex is too painful, then there are other options … there are other ways you satisfy him. Ask him. If you really care about your husband's needs too, then be open minded about other options.

LW1 - Your daughter is just as guilty as your SIL for abusing your generosity. Give them the three months the Annies recommended, and don't let them forget they are leaving. Don't let them guilt you or pressure you or "forget" to asked them to leave, because they may try that kind of nonsense. You've already let this go for five years and they have no reason to leave unless you give them one, and the longer you put it off the harder it will be.

LW2 - Yeah, it's a bit weird, but not worth making an issue over it. The credit was earned fair and square and whether he used it or not didn't affect the other couple's bills. What would irritate me more is him using it on just your portion of the meal. It was have been much more gentlemanly to apply the credit to the entire bill.

Re: Dave Galino

Frankly, your "advice" to LW3 was in poor taste. She neither asked for it nor does she need it, and we do not know the details of their intimacy. She and her husband sound like they are aging gracefully and lovingly, don't start poking at them.

Re: Michelle and Kitty:
"LW3 - Can we please move on from this topic??"
If the Annies keep printing letters about this topic, it must be a pretty big topic to a lot of people, and worth the space. Just because it's been kicked around so many times BTL, doesn't mean that many people still are struggling with it. And since BTL is only for Creators.com, and Annie's Mailbox is printed on other sites and in newspapers, probably at least 90% of the readers don't even see the BTL comments, so it's not a dead topic to them. So I think it's fruitless to hope that this topic will ever go away.

LW1 - I forgot about someone I once knew and what his parents did. The guy I once knew had an older brother (late 30's) who still lived with his parents. They wanted him out and constantly told him he had 1, 2 or 3 months to get out but he just acted as if they said nothing and they never really pushed it or enforced it. He had a job but was, quite frankly, a loser. He had no friends and the only thing in his life besides his job was comic books with adult content in them. Odd.

Anyway, one day his parents (who were retired) told him that they were selling the house and moving to a one bedroom condo in Florida in a retirement community (ah la Del Boca Vista!). They told him no one could reside there under 62 so he had to find his own place before the house sold. They admitted to others that they were moving simply to get their son out of their house. The brother did NOTHING, by the way. Then the house was sold. He then started calling his brother and other family members in a panic about moving in with them and they all told him no. He wound up getting an apartment at the last minute.

I'm not saying the LW should move. I'm saying that the parents above went to those extreme measures because they wouldn't put their foot down. Don't wind up like them.

Re: Zoe
Re: LW3: I read this differently than you did. Since the husband is willing to take the little blue pill, he apparently still has needs, even if the wife doesn't. I only recommended an alternative. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Re: Zoe #8
Zoe, I might be misreading here, but the way the LW worded it, I got the impression he DID apply the credit just to his and the LW's half of the bill? She says he "took out his card and told the other people they owed half the bill, including the tip, and that he would apply his $40 credit to the remainder."
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I interpreted that to mean that he wanted them to first pay half of the entire thing, and then he would pay the other half, less $40.00. If that's what he did, then yes, I think it's tacky, even though the other couple is still paying whatever they would have paid if there was no coupon. Best to save discount coupons for the times you're dining alone, unless you intend to give them half the benefit of the discount. At least it would bother me, I think, if I was the other couple. Others might not mind, and maybe it's just me, but it kind of says "Hey, I got a cheap meal and you didn't!!!!!!"

Lise, as always, is on target again as to LW1.

My Mom in Law is a wonderful person at age 84. Her loser daughter, age 64, moved in at the suggestion of family members other than my wife about three years ago. She has no money and refuses to apply for social security since "she wants to build it up". Now, MIL is running out of money. My wife told her sister, in a big blow out, to go to work and help out but the sister refused. She is allegedly "looking for a job", albeit 6 years of looking.

My MIL is always complaining about the oldest daughter living with her. BUT, like the LW1, she cannot stand up to the daughter living with her. Me? I'd solve that problem in .00001 seconds but I'm not in charge.

What's my point, LW1? You need to put on the big girl panties and set a deadline and then follow thru on it. EVERYONE will be happier but if you are like my MIL, you would just rather suffer it seems, So, respectfully, you get everything you deserve. I don't say that to be nasty, but you are what you are: a pushover. You have healthy people living in your house that are taking advantage of you because you LET THEM. So, when you start complaining, look at the mirror and therein you will find the problem and, by the way, it ain't gonna get any better over time..

LW2: I don't think this is tacky at all. It may be tacky if someone did that when treating you (ie a date), but if you are both paying your own way, then who cares how?

LW3: Dave G. brings up a great point about so called other options to traditional sex. It's been said here many a time that the issue isn't even about sex as much as it is about communication and RESPECT for your partner's needs and desires.

All relationships, romantic or not, are based on compromise and listening to each other. The fact that this LW and her husband were able to work through to the next phase of their relationship says more about compromise and listening and the stability of their marriage than anything. And the ones where one spouse's needs aren't being met says a lot more about the state of THEIR marriages than just their sex lives.

I just read the comments on yesterday's topic and I am more convinced now than ever that Nanchan is utterly insane.

But she is great for laughs.

@Michelle: LOVE the reference to Del Boca Vista! Gave me a laugh! "You wanna piece a ME??!" (Frank Costanza)

Re LW#1----
I love how people can always blame the in-law and not blame their flesh and blood when they are both doing the same thing. (Reminds me of how a cheated-on spouse can always find a way to hate the other person involved in the cheating but not their cheating spouse.)
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So, LW, does your DAUGHTER make an effort to find a place? Does your DAUGHTER make an effort to help around the house or contribute to the bills? Are you beginning to despise your DAUGHTER? Because they are there as a unit, you know-------unless he is somehow holding her hostage against her will.
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I understand your concern about not wanting to hurt your granddaughter, but not your daughter-------she is an equal party to the freeloading. You don't get to blame her husband but not her.
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Tell them BOTH that you and your sick husband need your privacy, give them a deadline, and hope that they will leave without deciding to blame and hate you---------but if they DO, please don't back down. People use this tactic to get their way all the time, and it would stop if they didn't get rewarded by the other person caving in because s/he can't take it.

LW1 - Does your daughter help with the bills or around the house? Because it sounds like maybe you should feel the same about her as your SIL. The Annie's advice is good: Set a date, tell them they need to move out. It doesn't sound like paying you rent would make the problems (that your husband feels confined to his room) go away. So, by July 1st, they have to move out. Period. But, realize, you may lose your daughter and granddaughter in the process.

LW2 - Seriously, Annie's? How is using a credit different from using a gift card? And how is using a gift card different from using cash? Sometimes people just need to seriously move on.

@Zoe -- posted a response to you on yesterday's thread.

Re: Michelle
"I'm not saying the LW should move. I'm saying that the parents above went to those extreme measures because they wouldn't put their foot down. Don't wind up like them."
Oh, they most likely will. People who tolerate this kind of situation for five years are major wimps. I've seen people like that before - they want the problem to be resolved, but they don't want to put their foot down about it, they just want everything to fall into place magically without any unpleasantness whatsoever.

LW1: I wonder what happened that allowed them to stay for five, long, frustrating years? Did they try to get jobs, for instance?

I understand times are tough and that they may have had a few difficulties of their own. I mean, five years ago, people were starting to lose their jobs and their homes because of the housing bubble and the start of the recession. But then again, but HASN'T EVERYBODY? And now there's situations in the family that apparently the LW's daughter and family seem to not care about – the "so what if Dad's dying? He probably deserves it anyway, and we're staying, and you CAN'T MAKE US MOVE!"

OK, even if that hasn't been directly stated, just by them staying with the LW for five years and not seeming to be in any hurry to find a place of their own, their apparent attitude is exactly if they had said outright "I don't care if Dad's dying; we're staying!" (Given the daughter's family's attitude, I would not have been surprised if the LW had written more, such as, "They've tried to evict me and my husband from my own home, which I've long since paid for, even though he's deathly ill! They've even tried initiating legal proceedings and want US out on the street – literally!")

So grow a backbone and say, "Oh, yes you are leaving! THIS IS MY HOUSE" And then mean it. What the Annie's and the rest of BTL said.

The only thing is, at this point, three months may be VERY GENEROUS! I'd give them 48 hours and NOT be so nice about it! Even if she has to get a job at McDonald's that barely pays minimum wage – and BTW, you do have to wonder if she's got a job and is contributing toward apartment rent. Maybe they (the daughter and her family) need a night out on the streets, living out of their rusty, 1985 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser station wagon to see what others have gone through ... and that would motivate them to find work and/or a reasonable place to live.

As for the common excuse that they're saving money, which may well be why they moved in with the LW (even if one of them had found a job since) – just what are THEY saving money for? Probably some dream vacation that they know they'll never take, or to buy a dream house they'll never be happy in (let alone afford even the minimum payment) or a luxury car that even with their savings they can't possibly afford.

Sigh. Again, what the Annie's have stated.

I have much the same concern about the LW as Maggie and Lise have expressed -- if LW has put up with this freeloading for 5 years, is she really going to be able to put her foot down and demand rent from them if they haven't moved out in 3 months? What happens if they simply say no?

Getting a backbone is the right answer, here, but for some people that's not always an easy thing to do.

LW1--"How do I get them out without hurting my daughter and granddaughter?" The short answer is that you can't. Your daughter and her shiftless husband feel entitled to mooch off of you and take gross advantage of your generosity. Your granddaughter is the leverage your daughter uses to continue the emotional blackmail; she knows that if she threatens to keep you from her, you'll buckle to her demands. You basically have two choices: continue being held prisoner in your own home ad infinitum or risk losing access to your granddaughter by giving the deadbeats a fair timeline in which to get out, which by the way is a perfectly reasonable request. It's called tough love and it's long overdue.

LW2--Unless you and your husband specifically invited the other couple out, then you should have covered their half of the bill. If on the other hand you regularly dine with the other couple and routinely go dutch, then what your husband did was perfectly acceptable.

LW3--I wish the Annies would fill the void once and for all and end these unwinnable debates about this topic.

Re: Lise Brouillette (#20)

The thing is, there might be some unpleasantness about it. Perhaps there have been arguments about it before – not necessarily between the LW and her daughter/SIL, but the LW and her husband. He's in no health to try to get these invaders to leave, so now it's up to the LW to pick up the slack.

The only problem is, if she has no backbone in the first place ... how does she get one? You just can't wave a magic stick and expect her to have one. It's got to be learned.

Again, I just fear it's the LW and her husband that is soon going to end up homeless ... and the daughter and her family get their free house. I hope this is not what it's leading to.

Re: Michelle

That also worked for my sister. She's much happier now, but at the time she was really mad.

I think people like my sister (and the LW's daughter and SIL) get really comfortable in a situation that they themselves aren't really happy with (if they are honest with themselves). When my sister had moved in with my mom, she had left a bad relationship and needed the security of Mom's house (even though she was in her late 20s). Every time any of us would suggest she get her own place, she'd find all sorts of reasons not to. She didn't want to live in an apartment, she didn't want to live alone, she didn't want a roommate (!), etc etc etc.

I moved back home the summer Mom sold the house while I was transitioning between college and "the next step" (I had no idea what that was going to be). Within a month or so, I had a job and was saving to move out when Mom took me out to lunch (in and of itself HIGHLY unusual) and told me she was going to put the house on the market. She told me I was welcome to move with her, but that she felt she had to sell the house to kick my sister in the tail. My sister had been with her job for over 10 years at that point and Mom knew she wouldn't want to move.

Well, we both stayed local after Mom moved on (Mom also retired from her job at that point, made a ton of money on the sale of the house because she sold at the top of the market, moved to a lower cost area and bought a bigger home). I stayed for about a year before moving to Los Angeles and then to Japan. My sister has never lived outside of a twenty mile radius of our hometown, but she's MUCH happier now and has a wonderful life.

My point: the fact that the LW's daughter and her family refuses to move is more likely based on FEAR than it is on freeloading (although that's certainly an element) and they are probably just as miserable in many ways as the LW is. When you live with people who resent or are frustrated with you, there is a VIBE in the house. I'm sure the daughter's family is unhappy as well, but don't know what to do about it.

My advice to the LW is based on that experience with my sister. LW, I dont' think you need to sell the house, especially since your husband is ill. But you do have to realize that your daughter, SIL et all are NOT benefitting from this arrangement. That may be enough to get you to take some action. Here's the three step plan that worked for us:

1. Sit your daughter and SIL down (get a babysitter for the granddaughter if needed), probably outside of the house and explain that they have a deadline to leave the house. Tell them you love them, but you know that they are very unhappy there and that your husband's health is suffering because the house is crowded. When you have this talk with them, make sure that you emphasize that you know THEY are unhappy (even if they deny it) and that you know that they need their privacy as a family.

2. BEFORE you go into this little talk with them, find them three or four rental units that would be suitable for them and close by your home. Talk to the landlords and find out terms of rentals. At the lunch with your daughter and SIL, present these options and offer to assist them with the initial move in costs (generally first/last and deposit) as well as some of the moving costs (rental van if needed). You may be able to negotiate the terms of the rentals for them: if they don't like what you give them, tell them the same conditions apply (help with the deposit etc) but they have to keep things within XX budget or they are on their own. You want to make sure they move into some place they are going to be able to afford. (PS: If they both don't work and haven't for awhile, they may be able to apply for social service help with this and should look into that option as well).

3. Give them a deadline of 2 months to be completely out of the house. In our case, Mom's house sold immediately and we had a 30 day escrow, so we had to be out ASAP. Pretend like you ARE selling the house and they have to be OUT in that amount of time. Stick to it. If you have to (and we had to with my sister),physically move the stuff out of the house and into their new place.

We didn't have to do this because Mom moved, but my other recommendation would be to renovate their rooms immediately after they move out. Don't make it easy for them to come BACK. If your husband has a hobby, make one the rooms they took his "hobby room" (can he take up photography and make it a dark room?).

Good luck.

I remember my sister telling me about a couple of friends of hers who let a friend move in with them. This is how they did it. They set a deadline right off the bat for when he had to be out of the house. He would be allowed a 2-week grace period if an emergency delayed his departure, but, after that, he would be on his own. He had to keep his toiletries in a bucket and with his own possessions, not mingled with theirs in the bathroom. He slept on the couch and had to put the blankets and pillows up every morning so that they could use the couch during the day. The long-distance was disconnected so he couldn't use it. He was out two weeks BEFORE the original deadline.

It worked because he was never allowed to consider their place his place. People who let relatives or friends stay with them until they get back on their feet have to set boundaries at the beginning. Do not let them start treating your home like it's their own. Because, once they do, they'll never leave it.

LW1 -- you've gotten excellent advice on this topic, so the only thing I have to add is that I hope you take it. Why is it that I have this sinking feeling that you won't?

LW2 -- as in just about every case of etiquette, this is a situation where some people would be offended, and some people would not. As to their being a difference between using a coupon, versus using a gift card, versus using a credit, and whether it should or shouldn't be applied to the whole bill or not... Yes, the most chivalrous thing to do would be to apply it to the whole bill so that everyone benefits from the discount, and if you're not going to do that, it is probably best to use it some time when it's just you. For the record, if I was out with someone, and they whipped out a gift card or discount and applied it only to their half of the bill, I honestly wouldn't care. I've got way more important things to worry about and figure my life is too short to waste getting upset over something this piddling -- but that's me. Since I know not everyone thinks the same way I do, if I was the one with the gift card or discount, I would either put it toward the entire bill, or I would save it to use when I was by myself. And honestly, even if I was out on a first date with a guy, and he paid the bill with a gift card or used a coupon, I wouldn't hold that against him. I know some would, and that's their prerogative.

But I will say that there is a difference between coupons, gift cards, credits, etc. If I have a coupon that was part of a mass mailer or was in the newspaper, it is something that basically any person could get there hands on. It wasn't given to me as a gift by someone. It wasn't given to me by the restauranteur as a thank you for being a good, loyal, regular customer. It wasn't something I "earned." On the other hand, if I have done something to "earn" the discount -- like those buy four lunches and your fifth one is free or you or your fifth one is half off, etc., that means I had to spend the money to buy those first four lunches to "earn" the discount. I could understand why someone might not want to "share the wealth" under those circumstances. Of course, again, the proper avenue to take, then, is to save it for when you aren't with others.

But honestly, with all that said, I'm with Missa (#18) -- sometimes people just need to move on. I wish my biggest problem was whether or not to use the restaurant credit.

Re: Mike H (#22)

"What happens if they simply say no?"

How much do you want to bet that that is EXACTLY what the daughter and SIL will say? The "We're not moving, we like it here ... ." And if she's unemployed: "I'm NOT getting a job because I don't feel like it, yada, yada, yada. I DARE YOU TO MAKE US MOVE, B****!" line.

Chris may be right, too: The use of the LW's granddaughter as leverage may be just one way she's getting to stay. This may be a no-win situation.

LW2: I would have used the card only when dining alone or with my wife, if I were in the LW's shoes. If you're treating the other couple, then even if its a regular thing, I think the best thing to have done is to pay the whole thing IF you chose to use the card.

LW3: Huh?

@Dave Galino, Zoe, Michelle, et al on LW3 -- While I, too, am bored to tears with this particular debate at this point, I do recognize the validity of what Dave Galino is saying. This is one of those problems that is NOT going to go away -- it's entirely too common for it not to pop up again from time to time (and as DG noted, not everyone reads the Annies at creators, etc.). And while LW3 and her husband ostensibly have come to terms with their situation and are content with other forms of affection and intimacy, there is some wiggle room in there, given that she mentions that her husband would basically be in the same boat were it not for Viagra, which, if hubby has been taking some sort of ED medication, that does suggest that hubby might not be quite so content to do without as LW3 would have us believe, in which case pointing out that intercourse isn't the only means of sexual gratification MIGHT be helpful to her. Of course, the problem is, many people -- of both genders -- have been programmed to believe that only intercourse "counts," so that advice probably often falls on deaf ears. Moreover, it's not just men who can "feel the void," and it's not just men who could benefit from other forms of sexual gratification.

Eh, the more I type about this, the more bored I am with this topic.

Just a couple of observations on LW1

1) She blames the SIL instead of her own daughter because it's far more painful to have to accept that your own flesh and blood is equally to blame and far more painful to be angry with your own flesh and blood than with his/her spouse. It's why in-laws are so frequently blamed for things. It's also why spouses tend to blame "the other man" or "the other woman" instead of the person who actually broke their vows to them. It's stupid, but it's incredibly common. The other day hubby and I were watching a show, and when one of the characters saw his wife hugging another man, he went ballistic and attacked the other man. I turned to my husband and said, "make no mistake, if I catch you cheating on me with another woman, I'm not going after the other woman, I'm going after YOU!"

2) Totally agree that it's highly unlikely LW1 is going to magically grow a spine after putting up with this for five years. If I thought it likely that we would ever hear the outcome on this, I'd suggest we start a betting pool here at the BTL. That would actually be far more entertaining than all of us agreeing that advice given was good but that LW is unlikely to take it!

Re: jennylee

That is also what I interpreted (that he only applied the credit to his half of the bill). I don't think it's "wrong" per se but if my husband did something like that I would think he was being greedy. I would gladly share a nice discount with friends (rather than save it and use it privately) and in LW2's shoes I'd be irritated that he chose not to share it and instead just use it on himself.

But it's not that big a deal, I guess. Like if I earned a free sub at SubWay I would use it when I went for lunch with a friend, but then it's separate bills and stuff anyway. I have had discounts to restaurants in the past and always asked the waitress to apply the discount to the whole bill before divvying it up. Just seems more pleasant and fun to share a discount even if it's just 5$ per person at the end of it all.

Re: Lisa

I agree, I'm not mad at the topic, BUT I don't really think LW3 needed that advice because either she and her husband are happy with whatever level of intimacy they have (and it's clear they have some) or she's SUPER blind/ignorant about it and... you know what I'm bored too! Haha.

@bobaloo -- I'm betting that the daughter and/or son-in-law don't even NEED to get as defensive/aggressive as going so far as to say "I dare you to make us move," and all that jazz. I'm also betting that the daughter and/or son-in-law aren't merely going to say "no." Rather, they already know they are dealing with a spineless wimp who is unlikely to make good on any sort of deadline for moving out or paying rent. So, there's really no need for them to get all that confrontational. They could simply say, "OK, we'll really try..." and then simply not do anything about trying to find another place and simply not pay any rent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it couldn't go the way you describe -- it certainly could, and I think it would be LIKELY to go that way if the LW really does try to enforce the deadline. I just don't think it's even going to get that far. I'm not even all that convinced the LW will even manage to scrounge up enough gumption to say, "we just cannot go on this way, emotionally or financially. You've got three months to find another place, and if you're still here in three months, we are going to have to charge you rent." But let's say she DOES manage to say that to the daughter and/or SIL, the odds of her actually following through with it are, IMHO, slim and none -- and I suspect the daughter and SIL know that, too. So, they can afford to skip all that confrontation and instead just wait three months and see what happens. And then just keep right on waiting...

Re: Bobaloo #24
"The only problem is, if she has no backbone in the first place ... how does she get one?"
She doesn't. Like I said, I've seen people like that before - my ex MIL was one of them. Oh, she would complain and bitch and whine and wring her hands a lot, but she'd put up with anything-anything-anything-A-NY-THING, rather than "make trouble". They never grow a backbone.

@nanchan #25
"the LW's daughter and her family refuses to move is more likely based on FEAR than it is on freeloading"
Who cares what it's based on? There is always a reason why people do whatever they do, and that doesn't make it acceptable. It's still freeloading.

@Lisa #27
"Why is it that I have this sinking feeling that you won't?"
Because she knows what she has to do, but she doesn't wanna do it, because it's un-plea-sant. She wants a magic wand. That's why she's writing in!

Oh and thanks for the interesting info on yesterday's column!

re: LW3

I'd rather have this as a topic than some of the others the Annies decide to beat to death.

LW1 - I don't think anyone has brought up what a sticky issue it can be to get unwanted "guests" out of your home. In many states, there is something called "tenants' rights" for ANYONE who has been staying in your home for more than one month. In other words, if they want to park themselves longer than that, they have a legal right to do it, until you begin the eviction process through the courts, which can take considerable time. We had an outrageous example of this in our own community, when a family let an acquaintance "going through hard times" stay with them expense-free for several weeks in a small ranch home. She not only refused to leave when asked, but filed a restraining order against the wife/mother after accusing her of "assault" - the courts forced Mom (and family) OUT OF HER OWN HOME and the "guest" had the house to herself. The family had to go through a lengthy eviction process before they could get back into their home, and even then the courts allowed the unwelcome tenant to stay about a month longer to give her time to find a new place. It turns out this woman had done this at least twice before and had put others through the same hell of trying to get her out. So sometimes it isn't as easy as deadlines, changing locks, etc. And let it be a cautionary tale to all who have relatives, friends, or ANYONE stay with them long past their welcome.

The only thing that I would add to what others have said about LW1 is if I were hubby, I'd use my whole house. Don't like me sitting in my underwear in the living room? too bad, move out if you don't like it. Don't like my getting up at night and making noise because it disturbs your rest? too bad. I wouldn't be hanging out in my bedroom to make someone else comfortable if I wanted them to leave. I gather that he's ill but I would put my medical equipment or bed in whatever bed I wanted to be in, even if it was the living room, and do what I felt like, where I felt like it. Let the kids stay in their bedroom if they are uncomfortable.

Re: Zoe #31
True story here (I think)------a co-worker once told me, years ago, about being invited to lunch by a former co-worker of HERS, and after they had eaten and went to settle the bill, her co-worker pulled out a coupon she'd gotten in the mail (one of those addressed to 'resident', not anything she'd earned with former purchases)--------coupon was one of those 'Buy one meal, get the second for half-price" things. She actually said "Here, this is for mine", pulled half the cost of HER dinner out of her wallet, and handed it and the coupon to the cashier.
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Now, THAT took nerve, I think--------stiffing the person who made it possible for you to GET the second dinner at a bargain price. I asked her if they ever went to lunch together again, she said no way. She said she was so dumbfounded she didn't know what to say at the time.

Re: kai archie #37
Good ideas!!! And to go even further, if you could find someone to go along with it-------try inviting a male friend to come stay with you for awhile, tell your daughter and SIL he's down on his luck and you need to let him be there till he gets back on his feet-------then drop a hint to your daughter that she might want to be careful about letting your granddaughter be around him, because he's a convicted child molester. See how fast that makes them find somewhere to move to!!!!
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OK, JOKING HERE-------------just making sure you know I don't really think it's acceptable to do something like this. (But it would be fun, wouldn't it?)

@Linda -- that is a truly disturbing story. We, of course, have no way of knowing whether the LW lives somewhere that has those laws in place and whether the daughter and/or SIL are aware of them and willing to use them to their advantage. My guess is, not so much. BUT that doesn't actually dilute the point you were trying to make at all. Forcing someone to move out isn't that easy if the person you are trying to evict physically refuses to move. At that point, you either need to be prepared for a physical altercation (something I would bet this LW is NOT even REMOTELY ready to deal with, either physically or emotionally) or be prepared to resort to "stealth" -- waiting for them to leave the house for some reason and then change the locks, pack up their stuff and leave it outside or something like that (again, something I would be this LW is not remotely prepared to do).

@kai archie -- my guess is that the husband confines himself to his bedroom as much because HE is uncomfortable being seen like that, not simply because he is concerned with the comfort of others. I like your suggestion, I just think it's unlikely the hubby would take it, just as I think the LW is unlikely to take any of the other good advice she's been given on this topic.

@jennylee (#38) -- OK, even I think that's gauche and probably wouldn't be in a hurry to go out with that person ever again! Here's the difference: your co-worker did the exact right thing. She simply never went out with that person again. She didn't hem and haw over whether it was rude of her co-worker to do that or not. She didn't write to an advice columnist to tell her whether it was rude or not. And she also didn't make it a federal case, creating bad feelings and tension with someone with whom she had to work on a day-to-day basis. She thought it was rude and simply didn't have lunch with that person again. Problem solved. Kudos to her!

Re: nanchan (#25)

"My point: the fact that the LW's daughter and her family refuses to move is more likely based on FEAR than it is on freeloading (although that's certainly an element)?"

What fear?:

• That they'll actually have to spend money they earn themselves, rather than try to save it for some "grand purchase" they know they'll never get (i.e., the Cadillac loaded with lots of luxury gadgets, the dream house they'll get kicked out of in two months when they miss payments and someone "unexpectedly" gets laid off their modestly paying job, the dream vacation, etc.)?

• That one – or both of them – will have to put up with the migraine headaches, fatigue and shortness of breath and struggling to concentrate at work over things they are missing at home (i.e., what's happening on "The Talk" and "Judge Judy") when they go to work and have to work eight hours of day just like the rest of us? Or otherwise not be couch potatoes getting fat while the others do the work?

• That they won't get their inheritance they feel is due them when they try to hasten dear-ol' Dad's death, and then claim it's judgement day for him for something he probably didn't do (More than likely, he didn't spoil her the most.), and then work on wearing down sweet-ol' Mom?

So many things they could "fear." But several BTL'ers are right – it is freeloading, and things aren't changing until the LW grows a backbone.

Lise – you're probably right. I'm not holding my breath, and the reward for the freeloaders might be her house. Which will go to a roach-infested pot within two years for not keeping it up.

"Rather, they already know they are dealing with a spineless wimp who is unlikely to make good on any sort of deadline for moving out or paying rent. So, there's really no need for them to get all that confrontational. They could simply say, "OK, we'll really try..." and then simply not do anything about trying to find another place and simply not pay any rent. "

That is exactly what will happen, Lisa. The daughter and SIL aren't going to get confrontational, or call the mom a b*tch. They're going to tell her they're really trying, and they probably will make an effort for the first two weeks or so. Then slowly, they'll go back to openly mooching. The LW won't have the balls to kick them out, and she'll tell herself "Well, at least they're trying again." She is a spineless wimp and I really don't feel sorry for her. I do feel sorry for her husband though. I'm sure this isn't the golden years he was expecting and it sounds like he's not the girl's father, so it would be overstepping to kick them out.

@Linda: While I appreciate your story, in most states, it's pretty easy to evict a tenant. As long as you provide notice (which a verbal "You have 3 months to move out" would be appropriate in this case, because there's no formal lease) you can evict someone. If they refuse to leave, call the polic and they'll do it for you. There's no reason to involve the court. Of course, that would probably destroy this mom's relationship with her daughter, but it sounds like there's not going to be much relationship anyway.

WOW, I really hope the LW isn't reading here today (LW1). You guys are being pretty harsh on her. All she's trying to do is HELP (in her mind), what she needs to realize is that she's NOT helping.

But telling her to grow a spine and be all sassy and mean.... I'm not sure that's going to work.

@ nanchan Re: #44

What if they were to tell her to put on her big girl pants instead?

Re: Bobaloo

They should get a PVR then! The first thing I do when I get home is fire up the PVR and watch Judge Judy. So great.

LW1, why are you blaming your son-in-law? Your daughter is equally to blame here. In fact, she may be the one who wants to stay in your house far more than he does. I have a friend who was in that EXACT same situation once, where he and his wife had to move into his in-laws home during a run of bad luck. But when the rough patch was over and they were capable of getting their own (albeit small) place, his wife kept making excuses not to. He knew they had overstayed their welcome and was desperate to go, but fact was, his wife liked living with mommy and daddy. Their place was nicer and bigger with air-conditioning and free cable, and built-in babysitters for when she wanted to go out or take a hot bath. And besides, her parents blamed her husband for the freeloading; she was their precious little princess. My friend told me he would have moved out himself if it wasn't for the fact that he was afraid of losing his child. Bottom line, get off the blame game and tell them BOTH it's time for them to go.
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For LW2, I don't get the Annies response at all. If the two couples had planned to split the bill in the first place, what difference would it make that the guy is paying part of his share with a frequent buyer credit? And how on earth is that "flaunting" that his bill is $40 less? He still had to pay all those previous meals in advance to earn that frequent buyers credit. So if that's the case, does that mean that if two couples' go on a trip together, no one can apply their frequent flyer miles to their fare because that would be bad manners and "flaunting" a lower bill? What about gift cards? Should you not use them either? And what about credit cards? Isn't that "flaunting" your good credit rating? I think getting upset over this is petty--unless his wife thought he should use the credit to treat the friends, and that would be nice, but no more "nicer" than picking up their tab anyway. If might be different if those $40 had come "free" but they didn't.

LW1: In addition to what everyone else said they need to look into their local state and city rental laws and issue in writing the appropriate notice to move out. In many places even without paying rent a person might have rights that would legally not allow the parents to just "kick them out" or "change the locks" on them when the time is up. They MIGHT have to follow the full legal eviction process.

Re: Zoe (#46)

"They should get a PVR then! The first thing I do when I get home is fire up the PVR and watch Judge Judy. So great."

No, what she needs to do is f-in' forget this show and all courtroom trash shows that go with it, and focus on what matters – raising a family, working hard and stop freeloading on Mommy and hoping she and Daddy croak so they get their free house.

I say "free house" because this is what this is working towards.

And take that for what it's worth – back five years ago when they first moved in, perhaps it WAS only meant to be temporary, particularly if it was a job situation or looking for a new house; their plan may well have been to quickly find the solution to whatever problem they had – i.e., a new house, new jobs, etc. – but when things weren't resolved within "a few months" – and yes, part of that may have been due to the economy – I wonder if they got discouraged and gave up and fell into their freeloading thing, because "mooching off Mom" became easier than continuing the search for work, a house, whatever, and sacrificing their "wants" they know in their mind they'll never get.

IF that be the case, then five years ago the LW needed to tell them to keep their heads up and keep looking for work, even if it were at a fast food restaurant (for temporary). I mean, lots of people were out of work then, but many of them continued to at least try and put an honest effort into their search for whatever. The people in today's LW1 didn't, apparently, because the LW is now at this point.

@Casey (#43) -- Certainly, assuming no legal issues to the contrary, if the daughter and SIL refuse to move (or even if the LW simply is concerned that they will refuse), LW can call the police. I'm trying to envision a woman who has let this go on for FIVE YEARS and is writing to the Annies in hope of finding some magical way to get them to move without their being any hard feelings calling the police to physically remove the daughter and SIL. So, while I think you are basically right, I just don't see it happening.

@nanchan (#44) -- sometimes, a kick in the pants is required. While I do generally agree that not all people respond well to some of the "tough love" being offered BTL today, there are times when that really is the best recourse. Perhaps LW would/will respond better to the Annies' advice -- which is basically the same as practically everyone else's, only put much more nicely than "grow a spine." That doesn't change the fact that advice still really does boil down to "grow a spine." As noted above, this woman has put up with this for FIVE YEARS. And even though she says she doesn't know how much longer she can deal with this, she is STILL looking for some magical way to get these people to move out without causing any hard feelings. In other words, she's still basically unwilling to just do what needs to be done if it's going to "hurt" someone. LW doesn't sound stupid to me. She knows what she needs to do. She knows it's going to be difficult. She knows it likely will affect her relationship with her daughter (and, by extension, her granddaughter), at least temporarily, if not permanently. But she is still hoping against hope that this will all just magically resolve itself, that there's some enchanted phrase she can say that will get her daughter and SIL to move without anyone's feathers being ruffled. Sorry, but a person who already knows the truth but refuses to face it -- sometimes that person needs a little "tough love."

One other twist on LW1 -- many of us are assuming that neither the daughter nor the son have jobs. While it's not a bad assumption, the fact is the LW never says anything about neither of them being employed and neither of them trying to find a job. Rather, she says that they aren't trying to find a place -- now, that could mean a job, but I took it to mean they aren't trying to find a place to move into. For all we know, one or both of them is/are employed -- they just like living rent (or mortgage) free. It could very well be that one or both of them is gainfully employed, but when they moved in, one or both of them was out of work or they were wanting to save money in order to afford a better place.

Many years ago, my brother and SIL moved in with my parents. They had been living in an apartment, and they could afford to continue living there indefinitely -- but they knew they wanted to buy a house, and they were having a hard time saving enough money while paying rent. Meantime, they found a new development that was going up that they wanted to build a house in. My parents offered to let them come live with them while the house was being built so that they could save that rent money and use it toward the house. Everyone in this situation was gainfully employed (and there no grandchildren at this point). Everyone knew it was temporary -- and there was a "date certain" that it was come to an end. As soon as the house was built, they would move. Now, granted, there could have been construction delays and stuff like that, so the period of time they'd stay there wasn't written in stone -- but once there was a house to move to, they would move. My brother and SIL offered to pay rent (just less that what they would have paid to stay in their apartment), but my parents insisted that since the whole point was for them to save that rent money, they wouldn't accept rent from them. But the two couples took turns buying groceries, so there was a contribution toward the living expenses. Moreover, my mother is notoriously disorganized (in terms of closets, pantries, etc.), and my SIL is extremely organized, so SIL offered to clean out and organize some of the closets and pantries, which my mother gratefully accepted. This allowed my SIL and brother to feel like they were contributing SOMETHING to the household while still allowing them to save all that rent money. The house was built with only about a two-week delay, and my brother and SIL promptly moved into it. While everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief once they were no longer "roomies," and while there is no doubt that each got on each other's nerves from time to time, the whole thing was completely peaceful because both sides of the equation were always trying to do right by each other.
Obviously, that is not the case with LW1, or the daughter and SIL would long since have moved out or at least made an effort to contribute to the expense and effort of running a household. My point is that we don't really know that neither of them is employed.

re: nanchan #25- This is the best plan. Do the legwork to find the possible rental units, offer the security deposit, and sit them down to tell them how it will go. Also, I would say. look into the local laws concerning this, so you know where you stand, just in case. But resolve to do this FOR YOUR HUSBAND. Put his needs first. He is sick, and you have put him on the back burner for far too long. I imagine that she is more angry at the SIL than her daughter because maybe the daughter is at least preparing meals and cleaning up after her child, but the SIL is refusing to do any yardwork, or take out the garbage, or any of the many things that the man of the house usually does. The things the sick husband used to be able to do, probably.
Also, I like the idea of grandpa reclaiming the living room, really, any room. It is HIS house, and if he is coughing up phlegm in the living room, well, don't like it, move. If they do not respond to any of this, I would follow local laws, serve notice on them, and have the sheriff evict them. It will probably fracture the relationship, but if they do not respond to niceness, then they really didn't care about the relationship, and ruining it was on THEM, not LW1. Also, if it was me, I would be pretty mad at my daughter for her passive-aggressive role in letting her husband crap all over me.

Re: Chris #45

She should only put on her big girl panties AFTER stepping up to the plate.

@Jane (47), on LW2 -- I agree with you and am just offering up a possible explanation for the Annies' saying he was "flaunting" the discount he was getting. As you know, these letters get edited quite a bit. Depending on how the bill was presented to them and how the couples handled paying the bill, it could have been perfectly possible for the LW's husband to present his restaurant credit without even saying a word to the other couple about it, in which case he certainly wasn't "flaunting" anything. It's also possible that there was no way for the husband to use the credit without it being made known in some fashion to the other couple -- possibly because the server asked how to apply the credit, for example -- in which case the husband could have taken a low-key approach, "I've got this credit from this restaurant, and since I'm not sure when next we'll eat here, I'm going to use it for our half of the bill," in which case he certainly wouldn't have been "flaunting" anything. But you know, some people just LOVE "getting a deal" -- and the only thing that will sweeten the deal is to make sure others know you're getting that deal. I can easily imagine someone in this situation being just boorish enough to actually "flaunt" the fact that they are "getting a deal." Under those circumstances, the LW's discomfort with this whole thing would actually be a whole lot more understandable than if it was handled discreetly or in as low-key a fashion as possible. Unfortunately, it's also possible that the husband really did handle it as discreetly as possible, and the other couple didn't even know or care about it, and LW is just hypersensitive. Given that we don't know for sure just how much has been edited out of the letter, we have no way of knowing for sure.

Having said all of that, I really do agree with you that this is much ado about nothing.

@Casey -- somehow saw your comment at 43 without first seeing your comment at 42. So I see that I definitely didn't need to make my point to you at #50. Clearly, we are on the same page!

@Miss Pasko -- well, if she doesn't want to be arrested for indecent exposure, she might want to those panties on BEFORE she steps up to the plate! ;)

I wonder if LW3 wrote a thank-you note to her husband after he stopped wanting to have relations with her...

Patty Bear - I had the same thought you did about putting up the security deposit. No, they shouldn't have to pay it, but that's probably going to cheaper, and certainly less stressful, in the long run.

Give a 3 month deadline, help (doing it all, if necessary) to locate an apartment, and pay what you have to get them out. If there is a birthday or anniversary in the next couple months, make it your gift for that occasion. (But give the money directly to the landlord).

I would have handled in a more direct way, but this might be a solution for the wimpy LW. Then make sure you use the room they have been staying in for something else, so it isn't sitting there empty.

I hate further coddling them this way, but don't think the LW has the backbone for much else.

LW1 -- one more thing for you to consider, in case a big part of what you are worried about is that your daughter will cut you off from your granddaughter. She may well do that, but it's not likely to last, and I'll tell you why. Since your daughter and SIL have been content to freeload for five years, it is not all that likely that they are going to be able totally independent of you for all eternity once they move out. It strikes me as highly likely that somewhere along the line they are going to need help with rent or mortgage or downpayment or car payment or money for granddaughter's ballet classes, or they'll need a baby sitter, etc. Your daughter, should she decide to "punish" you for making them move out by keeping you from seeing your granddaughter is almost certainly going to end up coming crawling back to you for help in some fashion. So, don't worry yourself overmuch about never seeing your granddaughter again, if that is part of what is keeping you from doing what needs to be done here.

Re: Mike H
Likely she responded negatively to an RSVP.

What many of you did NOT get from my post (or chose to ignore) is that the point is to get these people (daughter, etc) into a place that they can AFFORD.

If they can't afford the move, they will be back.

Re: Bobaloo
Relax, Bobaloo. It was a joke. Sheesh.

LW 1 When she says she doesn't want to hurt her daughter and granddaughter she may mean she is concerned about them being homeless and living on the street. I think she will have to have the police evict them if she really wants them out. They have been used to free living for 5 years, they aren't going to give that up without a fight. I would call the cops to have them evicted, at least the 2 lazy adults anyway.

@nanchan, ha! Now if only we knew if he were hosting a party for himself, or if he forgot to close the cupboard doors, or whether his teeth clicked loudly...

Re: Zoe (#62)

OK, sorry if I was rough on you. And you know I can't take a joke sometimes, but that's nothing personal.

It just it irritates me that sometimes these people choose to do what's "easier" when something becomes too difficult. Such as finding a job if they're not working, or going to school to get a better job ... so on and so forth. I realize none of us are perfect and we've all gotten down on ourselves when the chips are down and thrown in the towel, but that's when we need to pick ourselves back up and show our toughness and stop feeling sorry for ourselves.

Re: nanchan (#61) and locake (#63)

Well of course the LW doesn't want them to be homeless. Neither would a "tough love" parent. But there is such a thing as keeping your sanity, too. Even if he's only got a minimum wage job, they could find a reasonable apartment to live in, temporarily, and she can find something if she's not working.

To Mike H and nanchan:
Re LW#3's husband: He probably is not a stickler for etiquette, so do you think he would not insist on anything written but would be quite content with an oral 'thank you from her'?

Write out the terms of their LEASE.1.No use of communal areas. 2. Buy and use a separate fridge and food storage.3.Rent will be $ ?( more than the going rate).4. Rent is payable in advance on the first of every month If they don't want to sign the lease serve an eviction notice on the first. You can bet that there will be no help when you really need it but that is already the case.These are 2 spoiled brats and you have spent the last 5 years spoiling them.TIME FOR YOU TO GROW A PAIR AND TAKE CARE OF THE THINGS THAT MATTER.

Yeah, we're definitely on the same page, Lisa :)

Re: Jane #47
"what difference would it make that the guy is paying part of his share with a frequent buyer credit?"
Hee hee hee. The difference it makes to some people is that he didn't put out any money. He didn't go home broke, he didn't jhave to choose between the restaurant and something else, he didn't SUFFER. Some people have a prrrro-blem with that. Interesting that the wife makes it look like he's being cheap and tacky, while she's the ones who's being small-minded and petty. And apparently the Annies are in agreement!

Reminds me of people who break down everything they put in the garbage - God forBID anyone should find a use for what they're throwing out, they would feel robbed.

LW1 - If the SIL won't help around the house or contribute to the bills, he is NOT going to pay rent. (Since the mom is upset that the SIL won't help pay the bills, I inferred that he is financially able to do so.) I am sure that the kids know that mom & Dad want them to move, and that's why mom is upset that they don't even pretend to try and find a place anymore. This is also why there is no need to sugar coat things and say that "it would be healthier...if they found a place of their own."
I suggest that the mom check around first and find a nearby apartment at the right rent, and then let them know that they have long overstayed their "few months" and it's time to move out - and here's a vacancy. If they don't like that place, they can find another. But, I would tell them that they have to be out in a week (presuming the new apt is empty).
It may be that the adult children are guilty of elder abuse. LW1 may want to talk to her doctor, or husband's doctor and ask for help. There may be resources available locally.
It would help the mom to realize that the SIL does not appreciate the mom's help or even respect her. Mom needs to respect herself enough to set some healthy boundries and enforce them. In the short run, things will be even more stressful. But once the kids are settled in their new place, I think things will get better.
I also agree with other posters that these parents need to make their home less comfortable for the freeloaders. My suggestions: Remove the TV from the living room. Only have one in the parent's bedroom; have the cable company remove the line to the kid's room. Take out your hearing aids and turn the volume up all the way - 24 hours a day. Or cut off the cable, and the Internet. Go through their stuff while they are away - then ask them personal questions about their letters, bills, etc. Change all of the locks and do not give them keys - let them ring the doorbell in order to come in. Be creative with ways to make them decide to move out and you won't need to get the courts involved.

Has it occurred to anyone else that kicking them out might not be so simple LEGALLY? After all these years, they might be considered tenants (even if they don't pay any rent).

@jennylee, if he were getting oral thank-yous from her, I'm guessing she wouldn't have needed to write the letter in the first place! (Wakka-wakka!)

LW1: You're not a victim - you're part of the problem. Tell your daughter how you feel and work out a plan together.

LW2: Let me guess - as your husband was behaving like an a** you just sat there - right? Next time slap him upside the head.

LW3: We? Whose we? People need to stop thinking like they're part of a herd and they need everyone to think and feel as they do. It's ridiculous.

Caroline #70- ding!ding!ding! We have a winner here! Make the home over into one where they are not so comfortable, and here are a few more ideas: Oatmeal and prunes for breakfast every day! Laundry soap hidden away where they can't find it! Their magazines, books, socks, etc. get thrown away when you clean up! Don't be passive-aggressive, be AGGRESSIVE!

Get a dog. Turn it into your baby. Dog gets the couch. Dog eats off the plates. Dog eats at the table. Dad and dog run around naked. Make your house dog heaven and broach no interference. Dog will need it's own room soon.......