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Jerked Around

Comment

Dear Annie: My girlfriend broke up with me in April because she wanted to date another guy. Over the summer, she sent me random emails and text messages about various things, a few of which I answered out of politeness.

In September, we both attended the funeral of a mutual friend. I let her know that I wasn't totally over her, but I was doing OK in her presence. She then said that she had broken up with the other guy and that she missed all the things we did, still loved me and wanted a relationship.

A week later, she called to say that she had spoken to her counselor and that all she could offer me at this time was friendship. She then invited the other guy back into her life as "a friend." But when I checked her Facebook page, I learned she had been having him over to her house every week.

I finally got angry, and we had a blowup. Now she says her counselor told her that "men can't just be friends." She emailed, telling me that we need to move on and that she hopes to see me at my upcoming school reunion.

I don't want to see this woman again, ever. She used me and lied to me. She hurt me more the second time than she did the first. She has no business coming to my school reunion, as she never went to school there. Right now, if she approached me, there would be an angry scene. Am I wrong to feel this way? — Angered in California

Dear Angered: You can't help how you feel when you've been mistreated. This woman seems confused and a little selfish and, frankly, could benefit from spending some time without a man in her life. But try to channel your anger into something constructive. Live your life fully. Make new friends. Date other women. Stop looking at her Facebook page. You deserve better.

Dear Annie: My family recently had a big birthday bash for my father. My sister made a slide show that included photos of my late wife but no photos of my current wife, even though we've been together for 12 years.

Naturally, my wife feels hurt and claims that my sister made clear where she stands with my family. She also asked me not to confront my sister, saying it wouldn't accomplish anything positive. My wife now wants to cancel future family gatherings where my sister will be present. This same sister caused all kinds of stressful problems with my late wife, and I don't want to see that repeated. What can I do to mend my wife's hurt feelings? — Stuck in the Middle

Dear Stuck: Explain to her that your sister behaved abominably to your first wife, too, which indicates she is possessive of you and jealous of your significant others. Please don't avoid your parents and other siblings because one sister cannot control herself. Even though your wife doesn't want a confrontation, we think your sister needs to know that her behavior is unacceptable. Tell her.

Dear Annie: I was appalled at your response to "Frustrated in Colorado," whose racist mother-in-law will not accept her biracial adopted daughter, "Amanda," and, worse, is now moving closer to their area. Why would you suggest that she give Grandma the opportunity to spend one more second with this 12-year-old child?

Amanda does not deserve to be in a position to hear more hurtful and ugly opinions from her grandmother. My advice would be to refuse any contact unless the mother-in-law promises to be warm and kind to her. If she cannot or will not make such a promise, let her son visit on his own time, but the wife and daughter have no obligation to do so. — Disagree in Salem

Dear Salem: Perhaps "warm" is expecting too much, but the parents should certainly insist that Mom treat the child with kindness and not make any cracks about her place in the family. And we hope that living closer will provide the motivation.

Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM



Comments

57 Comments | Post Comment
LW1-
You're not wrong to feel angry, but you're doing yourself a disservice by letting her rent a space in your brain.

And, in spite of everything else you say, you still call her yourfriend. She's not your girlfriend. She's your ex-GF, Get ANOTHER girlfriend. And make sure it's a light relationship and that you're upfront about it - you're not ready for anything else right now and it wouldn't be fair to give any false hopes to a woman you might hurt as much as you've just been. The Golden, Rule, you know.

Don't let her drag you down a level where you won't like seeing yourself. If she shows anywhere, school reunion or else, just turn your back. Making a scene will only put you in the wrong.

LW2-
What the Annies said. Sometimes they get it right.

LW3-
'And we hope that living closer will provide the motivation.'
I knew this couldn't last!

Annies, if you really believe that, I have a nice bridge in Brooklin I wanna sell you.



Comment: #1
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:40 PM
LW2 - tell your wife to put her on her big girl pants & act like a grown up. She doesn't get to make you join her in the corner sulking , or wall you off from most of your family's gatherings for something she's not even willing to talk to your sister about face to face. Your sister might be a stress causing rhymes with witch, but your wife is trying hard to win "most passive aggressive". It sounds like your wife wants to keep quiet about what she's mad about, but set up a situation where the family has to pick between having her or having your sister at family events. The net effect is to isolate you from your family because when parents have to pick between a daughter & a daughter in law, they generally always pick their own daughter.
You know your sister & can decide if your best course of action is to calmly tell that what she did was hurtful (she probably already knows that) and unacceptable; or to ignore it ; or some third choice. People say this a lot but it's true: people can only upset you if you let them. If you & your wife accept that your sister is a trouble maker and quit expecting her to do nice things and love you all the time, you'll be better off and less upset by her. Your sister sounds awful, but you can't make her be nice. You can't make your parents pick you & your wife over their daughter. The only thing you & your wife can control is your reaction to her. Your best bet is to be civil but distant and keep going to family gatherings with everyone else. Nobody wins at family feud.
Comment: #2
Posted by: kai archie
Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:44 PM
lw1 you musyt tell uone wife ioune giruflriend she is she will not because she is meant ot you.bad bad.girl.!,
Comment: #3
Posted by: Lolley
Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:18 PM
Yes, Lolley. Girlfriend bad. Boyfriend good. Insightful as ever. Bravo and welcome back.

More seriously:

LW1 - your former girlfriend isn't ready for a relationship. (She'll be ready, or have a chance of being, when she stops relying on her counselor to make life decisions for her.) Lise is right that it's time to find a new girlfriend. Move on. Put her behind you. Find someone stable, who has sorted things out more.

LW2 - I agree with Kai Archie about this one. Your wife and sister are both behaving in an emotional and passive-aggressive way, and putting you in the middle. You can't mend your wife's feelings and it's not your job to try. It's fine to listen to her till she runs down on crabbing about all the real or imagined abuses from your sister. But don't try to fix the situation. One person can't mend another person's feelings, and it's not our job to try. Do insist quietly but firmly that there must be a way to handle the situation without cutting off contact with the rest of your family.

LW3 - The Annies were off-base in their response to the original LW, and to your letter calling them on it. The parents in question have no obligation to welcome a racist and domineering grandmother into their little girl's life. If she can be civil at a distance, appreciate her at a distance. Moving closer is not likely to improve things. Unless the grandmother has sincerely apologized for and asked forgiveness for her previous racist statements, allowing her to become a close neighbor more likely to bring the same problems to the surface in a different way.
Comment: #4
Posted by: sarah morrow
Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:41 PM
@ Lise - post 56 - yesterday

Be safe out there and if you have to crawl, do so. Crazy winter weather over here and we haven't had any snow yet.

LW 1 -

Your ex GF is a user and I'm sure that her new BF(or friend) will soon find that out. Sounds like when she left you to date someone else, she wanted to sow her wild oats. Oh, but then, she wanted to make bread out of the oats, so back to a relationship with you, but no, that wasn't good enough, back to sowing wild oats, again. Suggestion - move on and don't look back and if she should contact you via e-mails, Facebook or texting, do NOT reply. You sound like a really nice, level headed young man, there is a special young lady out there for you. Good luck !!

Comment: #5
Posted by: Gwen
Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:33 AM
LW1 - Your ex-girlfriend is a user and a liar. I know you don't see it now, but in the future you will be grateful that she is not in your life and is instead playing some other guy(s). Don't speak to her, block her email, block her number or get a new one, don't go on her Facebook page, etc. I don't see how she could just show up at your reunion when she didn't even go to school there but if you decide to go and she's there, ignore her. I also think she's lying when she says "My counselor said such and such." Move on and good luck.

LW2 - Unlike some others, I disagree that the LW's wife needs to put her big girl pants on. I think her feelings are valid and she is not acting immature. She doesn't want to cause a scene and make a fight out of it because she knows nothing will be accomplished. After being in that family for 12 years, I'm sure she's learned that you cannot talk to and rationalize with that sister. I was married a lot less than that and I learned that about my former ILs. I tried to talk to them until I was blue in the face but nothing ever got accomplished because you cannot rationalize with an irrational person.

If the wife does not want to attend events where that sister would be, that's her right. But if the LW wants to go, then she shouldn't stop him. He has the right to see his family. I think the LW's wife is handling this properly.
LW3 - I remember that letter. That woman will not treat that child kindly and will not give up the racist cracks. The parents need to keep their child away from bigot granny.

One of my best friends is Puerto Rican. When his mother married his step-father, a caucasian, their step-grandmother welcomed him and his brother with open arms. This was in the 60's and in a small, rural town where racism was still strong. How sad that she could accept and love them as her own back then but this grandmother can't do that in this day and age.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Michelle
Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:39 AM
LW1: Stop following this girl on FB or Twitter or whatever social media/internet thing she's on. As for your reunion, if she goes as the date of someone else in your class, you can't do much to stop her, but it seems unlikely she'd be allowed to go "stag" to a reunion for a school she didn't attend. Try to put that out of your mind, try to focus on other things, and consider this a lesson learned.

Best advice: The best response/revenge is living well and putting her out of your mind. If you focus on other parts of your life, other relationships, and live a great life without her, then you "win". She's not worth one more minute of your time.

LW2: Yes, let your wife know that your sister has always had this problem, and suggest to her that cutting off the family only allows the sister to "win". Try to find ways to work with your wife as a team and ignore your sister's odder behaviors, while connecting solidly with the rest of the family.

LW3: Actually, there is a good amount of research that suggests prejudiced attitudes are more likely to change with familiarity, so the Annies have a legit point. But it takes time, and THAT may be difficult for the original mother to allow. Letting her child be affected by some racist attitudes for a few months or years in the hope that eventually the grandma will come around (as is likely) may be tough to do, and may not feel worth it, even if the end result is a grandma that DOES accept the child.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:55 AM
LW1: "I don't agree with your counselor that men and women can never be friends. Still, he or she is right about one thing: you and I aren't able to maintain a friendship. Friends don't jerk each other around. You're so right that it's time to move on, for both of us. Therefore, I will NOT be seeing you at MY school reunion."
Comment: #8
Posted by: hedgehog
Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:00 AM
Mike H., wrt LW3, I agree about that research, and I believe Grandma being alone in a new environment (LW's) is going to put pressure on her to accept the kid sooner rather than later. If Grandma is meeting new people (neighbors, church, volunteering, whatever), those people are going to ask her almost immediately about why she moved her and does she have family here. And they will ask about grandchildren -- it's just par for the course as women get to be of a certain age. And LW's daughter is getting to an age, IIRC, where there will be sporting/musical/dance/theater events and performances and school graduations that typically involve grandparents who live nearby.

As I recall the original letter, Grandma had visited once, which indicates at least some thawing. Someone who's cutting you out of their life does not visit. And she wasn't spouting KKK stuff at the kids; she merely indicated she was a "friend" rather than "Grandma". Not ideal...but not overtly racist, either.

I don't think LW needs to invite Grandma over for dinner every Sunday. But I do think she's prematurely forecasting that the sky will fall.
Comment: #9
Posted by: hedgehog
Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:22 AM
sarah morrow to Lolley: ROFLMAO!!!!!!

W1: Frankkly, both you and your girlfriend need a little time out. Both of you to your corners. As the Annie's say, stop looking at her Fb page (and unfriend her so you can't see her full information anyways) and stop contact.

She didn't really do much wrong beyond playing with your emotions with her own indecision. She didn't cheat on you, she broke up to date someone else, that's ok. she didn't hold a gun to your head to make you get back together with her, and your own possesiveness made you check out her page. That was stupid.

What you are angry with is that you didn't get your own way. Sorry, Charlie. That's the way it goes, especially when you are dating. Her leaning on her counselor for help to express herself is telling me she feels like she needs validation for her feelings, or is afraid (or not strong enough) to tell you directly how SHE feels, so she projects it onto her counselor (who may just be a bunch of her girlfriends). Your intense anger is YOUR problem, not hers. and YOU need to deal with it. It might be time for you to see a legitimate counselor to discover why you are so angery about this.

Now, does that mean I'm telling you I think your ex is right to act this way? No. You don't say how old you are, but I think most of us have had a relationship with someone like your ex at one point or another. I sure did. It was on again off again for three YEARS for me with that guy and only ended when I moved out of state! Even then, he found me wherever I was and I had to say, no contact, no matter how much my heart wanted to be with him. You see, he was a player. an honest player, like your girlfriend, he would break up with me to go out with other girls, but a player nonetheless. He was also incredibly jealous during the times we were broken up and once threw a plate at my date when he saw us out.

Why do people do the whole break up get back together dance? Well, I believe it is because one person just isn't convinced that the relationship is right for them. In this case it is your girlfriend. That's ok to a point but becomes cruel when they want to have their cake and eat it too (like my ex boyfriend did). The best way to think about it is not with anger, but resignaation. It's not a good relationship unless it's good for BOTH of us and this one is not right for your girlfriend. Let it go. concentrate on yourself for awhile (the Annies say for her to be alone for awhile, they should have told the LW that the girl is no longer his concern, but HE should also refrain from trying to jump into a new relationship until he''s over this one and he is NOT. He is angry and needs to cool off for awhile. Otherwise, he'll take the same baggage with him).
Comment: #10
Posted by: nanchan
Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:38 AM
Re: Gwen
Oh, I do crawl when it's like that - what I'm concerned about are the ones who don't, behave as if it was bright sun and dry roads - and yack on their cells.

Defensive driving, schmefensive driving, how about paranoid driving?

@Mike H
"Actually, there is a good amount of research that suggests prejudiced attitudes are more likely to change with familiarity"
As I've said before, there are two kinds of racists. The vast majority, the racists-by-habit, are not fuelled by pulsing hatred and merely carry on the prejudices passed down by previous generations, because the don't think and don't question anything. They're often convinced they're very open-minded and do things without even being aware of it. Those are the ones that research is talking about, and who will slowly change their minds with familiarity.

And then there are the virulent racists, fortunately the minority, who are seething with hatred. Contrary to the racists-by-habit who are passive, the virulent ones are pro-active, and their feelings go way beyond mere prejudice, into active hatred. There are different degrees of course, and not all virulent racists wear a pointy hat or set up a concentration camp, but they will DO things - at the very least, spit venom every chance they get, treat the person badly.

The granny was the second kind. I've had one like that in my family. Apart from the fact that this 12 year-old child is NOT THERE to serve as an education tool to an mean old witch, I can tell you that more exposure is got gonna fix her. She has no intention of getting herself fixed, she thinks she's just FINE as she is and that everybody else is wrong.

It's a big mistake to just shove the two kinds of racists in the same bag, because their behaviours don't come from the same place and they don't respond in the same way. One of them is fixable. The other one is not - they know exactly what they're doing and they don't wanna change. That would be granny. More exposure is only going to give her more opportunity to act out her racism, and kindly supply her with a scratching post. That 12 year-old should not be put in harm's way that way.

Comment: #11
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:16 AM
Further to LW2-
How was your sister behaving towards your wife for the past 12 years? Did something happen that made her suddenly turn on your wife?

Comment: #12
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:18 AM
Sarah Morrow, Nanchan, you two need to think before you post about other people's comments. You're not funny. You're insensitive.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Gregg
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:23 AM
I agree that we shouldn't mock Lolley, even though I may have been guilty of it myself... She isn't doing any harm, she's not attacking anybody, just voicing an opinion. She's entitled to her opinion, even if it's badly typed. For all we know, she may paralysed from the neck down and typing with a pen in her mouth.

Lolley, if I ever made fun of you (I don't remember if I ever did), then I'm sorry. I shouldn't have.

Comment: #14
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:51 AM
Dear Angered in California;
Facebook has these excellent features called "BLOCK" and "UNFRIEND." If you remove her from facebook than she is less likely to show up at your reunion, etc since she wouldn't have the details. She is not a friend; and I doubt that there is a counselor. She is probably saying a counselor is saying these thing ... which in reality are her thoughts. Many people will share a thought that believe will cause a confrontation or they know is wrong; by stating that another individual said it. I doubt a counselor is saying "men can't just be friends." . I strongly believe that FB hinders the normal healing process when a relationship ends. It also sounds like she wants a back-up boyfriend in case things do not work out with the other one. You deserve better.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Margie Miller
Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:17 AM
Re: Lise B

While I agree that the girl's safety and comfort and mental health come before trying to teach grandma to play nice, I think it is a mistake to say that there are exactly and only two kinds of racist people, and you can only be one or the other (some people are VERY mouthy yet more or less harmless; others are very hateful and racist but rarely speak to that effect). It is also a mistake to just say that the grandmother is type II despite the fact that you only know this lady through an edited, likely shortened letter in an advice column. The world is not that black and white, and there is more to it than Lise B's life experiences.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Zoe
Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:24 AM
LW1 - I feel for ya dude but there is nothing sadder than a person who will not accept that it's over, and get over it and move on. Stop checking up on her, stop wondering what she's doing or who she is with, ignore her if you see her, and eventually you will stop thinking about her.

LW2 - I think it's fair that LW2's wife does not want to attend family functions where her SIL will be. It's only wrong if she tries to force the LW to stay home, too. For example, I avoid family functions where DH's grandfather is present because he's a gross old perv and I'm a grownup and I don't have to be around gross old perverts if I don't want to. I have seen him a few times (his wife's and his sister's funerals, the odd Christmas) - but I avoid most of the events, particularly the smaller ones. I'm not being passive aggressive, I just don't think he needs to change because I grew up in an environment where you don't make personal sex "jokes" about and to young women you barely know, if everyone else is fine with it but I also don't want to be around it myself.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Zoe
Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:29 AM
LW3: It's sad that whenever the Annies are called to the carpet for a poor answer, they refuse to acknowledge that they could be wrong.

The LW here is right, and I disagree with Mike H. above as well for many reasons.

1. When you become a parent (in the original LW's case it was through adoption), your FIRST obligation is to protect that child. That parental obligation is higher priority than your priority as a child to your own parents. When a grandparent shows a dislike or hatred of a key trait of the child, the child needs to be protected from that grandparent. Basic.

2. It is not the parents job to "educate" racists. Even if they "come around", they are bound to slip up and say something hurtful, even if non intentional. I said this before at the original letter, racists don't THINK they are racists. That's the problem. They often think they are complimentary (think "Oh, Asian children are so smart!") when spouting off stereotypes and other racist comments.


3. At 12, the adopted child is at a VERY sensitive age. !2 is when a young girl is changing and the development of her self esteem is at a critical development stage. Using this time to "educate granny" could be extremely bad for her development. Kids that age are self conscious at best, you want to throw Granny coming in potentially saying something like "Oh, black children develop so much differently than us white people". Yikes! The potential for damage to this young girl at a crucial time in her development is too great to risk bringing granny into the equation at this point in the game. Maybe later, but not now.





Comment: #18
Posted by: nanchan
Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:41 AM
Zoe,

I agree with you....there are shades of racism, not the exact two types described by the one who knows everything. Even sensitive, educated people with the best of intentions can get tripped up by things learned early on in life that seemed harmless at the time. Ever see the Seinfeld episode when Jerry was dating a woman of American Indian descent? Hilarious.

My brotherand his wife adopted a lovely Korean girl. We love her as much as we love his biological son and we have no reason to dislike anyone from that background. But we are ever mindful of not saying anything to draw attention to her being from a different background. Even though it is all from good intentions, is that racism? My niece is from a different culture. Why should we tiptoe around it? I think the biracial girl knows she is biracial....not exactly a secret... and her parents should let her learn to deal with the racist grandma and let her make her own decisions. People have to be who they are, and the child has nothing to be ashamed of for being who she is.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:10 AM
LW1 needs to come right out and tell his EX-GF that she is NOT invited to HIS school reunion. If he had already invited her, then UN-invite her. Then ignore her at all costs whether it is online or if you see her somewhere in person. Unfriend her, block her, do whatever you have to but do what you can to not be this woman's stepping stone!
Comment: #20
Posted by: p
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:13 AM
I guess I should have said, Native American.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:13 AM
@Lise, you may personally categorize "racists" into "two types", but that's just a personal definition on your part; it's not something that's been used in the sociological and social psychological research, and doesn't invalidate the research done.

I did NOT suggest that exposure and familiarity automatically changes ALL racists; just that attitudes are "MORE LIKELY" to change with familiarity and working together. That remains a true and factual statement regardless of your personal experience with some individual racists; I was speaking in the aggregate about probabilities and *in my comment* is the acknowledgement that this isn't 100% effective.

@nanchan, please note that I closed my comment with the following, which you apparently missed: "But it takes time, and THAT may be difficult for the original mother to allow. Letting her child be affected by some racist attitudes for a few months or years in the hope that eventually the grandma will come around (as is likely) may be tough to do, and may not feel worth it, even if the end result is a grandma that DOES accept the child."

So, nanchan, you're not really saying anything that disagrees with me, as I very much did acknowledge that the "parental obligation to the child" (as you put it) may not be something the parent feels is worth putting at risk for the possible eventual reversal of the grandmother's feelings.

I've said this before: I usually choose my words very carefully, and words like "probable" and "may" and "likely" are put in there for a reason. Both of you have read things into my comment today that weren't there, and seen disagreement where there really wasn't any.

I will disagree with one point, however: I think it's *everyone's* "job" to educate racists, misogynists, homophobes, whenever given an appropriate opportunity.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:16 AM
Re: p

No, p. LW1 needs to get to the place of total indifference and not even notice what that selfish girl does. The opposite of love is not hate, the opposite of love is indifference and the best way to deal with her is simply to not even notice if she is there or not. Do not waste emotional energy on people who would use you. Sure, unfriend her and block her in the virtual world, but in real life, treat her as not even noticeable. Another face in the crowd...not someone to get riled up about. My humble opinion.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:21 AM
Re: Mike H

Mike,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have seen firsthand situations where some older relatives changed their views when their formerly pristine all white neighborhoods began to change to include some black families. This comment is admittedly anecdotal...I am not a sociologist...but when these aunts and uncles got to know their new neighbors, attitudes changed and friendships were formed. I know that this will not always happen, but it is nice when it does.

That being said, I still believe this child has a chance to change Grandma's mind, and if so, great. If not, the child has to learn to deal with racist people, even those in her own family. As you said, Mike, it is everyone's job to educate haters, and this child needs to develop the tools to do so.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:34 AM
Mike H: thank you for a respectful reply to my post.

However, you are NOT a parent of a biracial child (or any child) and I am. As a parent of a biracial child, her ethnicity (directing this to Carly O) is NOT anything we tip around, indeed we EMBRACE it. I have always taught her that she is blessed because of who she is. You don't ignore it at all, and if you your family, Carly, is smart they will address it head on and EDUCATE your niece about her Korean heritage as well.

I wrote about this back when the original letter was published, but my business partner and his wife (he's white, she's black) have 3 adopted children, two African American and one Hispanic, as well as three bio children. Our other partner has an adopted child from the South Seas. We all agree that the best way when raising our kids (mine is half Asian, half German on my side) is that we educate them about where all of their ancestors come from. In my case, it helps I have a cousin who is a geneologist and we have a family tree going back 1000 years. ON my daughter's father's side, we have the same type of record. She knows all about her family, noone tip toes around it. My daughter is fluent in two languages, has been PUBLISHED in two languages. Our business partner who's daughter is from the South Seas, they have taken their whole family to meet her birth grandparents and family. It's imparative when raising your children that you develop PRIDE in who they are.

That being said, it has been my job to protect her from racist, who come in different shades and ethnicities. She's 19 now, she can protect herself. But when she was growing up, I kept her away from people, including family, who were not inclined to celebrate her uniqueness, but to try to shove her in a little box (stereotyping) or to denigrate her. THAT'S WHAT PARENTS DO. She also learned coping skills (oh man! the stories I could tell but won't about how she has fought back from racism), but only as she was ready. You don't throw a sensitive 12 year old to defend herself against d a long in the tooth racist granny. again... maybe when she is older.

Mike, just because I don't agree with you, don't get upset. I don't read Lise's posts anymore, or even posts that respond to her, so I can only go off my own post, which I think still is valid. I know you word things carefully, and you apparently missed the part where I said I disagree with your post. Isn't it my right to disagree with what you write? Just like you do me? thank you for doing so respectfully.

PS: gregg? hope you have a lovely day! I think we all agreed that we were welcoming Lolley back!? I certainly miss his/her insight and brevity.



Comment: #25
Posted by: nanchan
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:00 AM
LW1--Does your zip code happen to be 90210? The good thing is that your (ex)girlfriend at least had the decency to break things off with you before dating another guy. It was also good of her to make it clear to you right up front that she's placing you (and apparently the other guy) in the friend zone. The bad thing is, your (ex)girlfriend is bat shit crazy and evidently so is her counselor. Her erratic and desperate behavior is a clear sign that this woman is unstable and could spill over into stalking. Warn her in no uncertain terms not to show up at your reunion or you'll call the police. I would also contact the school in advance and ensure their security is aware of the situation and to have the woman barred.

LW2—“Naturally, my wife feels hurt and claims that my sister made clear where she stands with my family.” Your sister was pretty petty and quite thoughtless to use your father's birthday bash as a medium for letting your second wife know she doesn't consider her “family.” While your wife is the bigger person for wishing to avoid a confrontation with your sister, I think it's up to you to inform your sister in no uncertain terms that her actions were unacceptable; your wife is here to stay and that she's to show a little respect. If your sister can't act like a grown up with regards to your wife, then I see no reason why you shouldn't tell her flat out that you no longer consider HER family. Turnabout is fair play.
Comment: #26
Posted by: Chris
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:03 AM
LW1: Your EX gf is a jerk but if you are getting jerked around it's because you are allowing yourself to be jerked around. Remove yourself from her life or stop complaining; she has made clear who she is.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Kim
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:03 AM
Re: Gregg
Since I wasn't sure if Lolley's post was even English, I had to laugh. Sorry, it's just part of the human condition. She doesn't want people laughing at her? She needs to learn how to communicate effectively. Simple as that.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Janie
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:09 AM
Re: nanchan
I agree with you. My niece's mother does teach her about her Korean heritage and she is most welcome and is ours as much as family can be. I guess my point is that it is a little hard for people who have never embraced children from outside their own culture to know the right way to do it.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:25 AM
LW1: you bring up your class reunion. Unless you registered HER as YOUR GUEST and paid for the reservation (class reunions can't be done for FREE and organizers hve exspenses putting it on) YOU still have the chance to CANCEL her part, her name tag, her meal, etc IF YOU INCLUDED HER. If it was left AND GUEST attached to your registration--FIND SOMEONE, even if it is your sister, or a classmate from the year before or after your year. And be there early so if she shows up, YOU are not stuck trying to make things right.
(I have been a coordinator of class reunions and sometimes things can get interesting.)
Advice--quit being a stalking ex boyfriend. As suggested, get her out of your head, out of your life. Don't have any communication via any means. UNFRIEND her in your social internet.
It will be YOU who will be sorry later if you don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW3: Racist grandma moving closer to the family. The parents have opportunity to set down rules, first one is not to let HATING-GRANDMA be alone with any of their children. Make sure you have an open conversation with your children WHY. Explain that some people are just in a different MENTAL place about people and their differences--whether it is skin color, hair color, boy or girl, whether you have a pet or not, etc. Grandma is the villian but whether or not you make her out to be more than a RACE hater, is your choice. You explain that people have to make choices and sometimes they are not nice choices or reasons why they make them. God created all of us the same way--and since God loves all the colors in the world he created, he made us each just a little bit different too.
I have a Sesame Street book I used for teaching 4 yr olds at Sunday school--WE ARE DIFFERENT BUT WE ARE THE SAME. Does not matter the age which reads it, the mesage is the same. All the reasons we are each different is all the same reasons we are the same.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW2: OK, you say your sister treated your former wife the same as your current wife. So the problem lies with your sister. Are you the only family member whose spouse is picked on? If not, join the battle with another sibling. If the only one--ask her at what point in her life tipped her on the mental and cruel behavior she so chooses to display towards your wives. Is is personal hatred and jealousy FOR/OF you?
Suggest joint counseling with YOU AND HER. See what her response is. She may be content being a horrible person. So then you would chaulk it up to a personality/character flaw you have no choice about. You tell her you pity her behavior, but like many who are mentally ill, you will accept her as she is.
And be serious about it.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:26 AM
LW1: you bring up your class reunion. Unless you registered HER as YOUR GUEST and paid for the reservation (class reunions can't be done for FREE and organizers hve exspenses putting it on) YOU still have the chance to CANCEL her part, her name tag, her meal, etc IF YOU INCLUDED HER. If it was left AND GUEST attached to your registration--FIND SOMEONE, even if it is your sister, or a classmate from the year before or after your year. And be there early so if she shows up, YOU are not stuck trying to make things right.
(I have been a coordinator of class reunions and sometimes things can get interesting.)
Advice--quit being a stalking ex boyfriend. As suggested, get her out of your head, out of your life. Don't have any communication via any means. UNFRIEND her in your social internet.
It will be YOU who will be sorry later if you don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW3: Racist grandma moving closer to the family. The parents have opportunity to set down rules, first one is not to let HATING-GRANDMA be alone with any of their children. Make sure you have an open conversation with your children WHY. Explain that some people are just in a different MENTAL place about people and their differences--whether it is skin color, hair color, boy or girl, whether you have a pet or not, etc. Grandma is the villian but whether or not you make her out to be more than a RACE hater, is your choice. You explain that people have to make choices and sometimes they are not nice choices or reasons why they make them. God created all of us the same way--and since God loves all the colors in the world he created, he made us each just a little bit different too.
I have a Sesame Street book I used for teaching 4 yr olds at Sunday school--WE ARE DIFFERENT BUT WE ARE THE SAME. Does not matter the age which reads it, the mesage is the same. All the reasons we are each different is all the same reasons we are the same.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW2: OK, you say your sister treated your former wife the same as your current wife. So the problem lies with your sister. Are you the only family member whose spouse is picked on? If not, join the battle with another sibling. If the only one--ask her at what point in her life tipped her on the mental and cruel behavior she so chooses to display towards your wives. Is is personal hatred and jealousy FOR/OF you?
Suggest joint counseling with YOU AND HER. See what her response is. She may be content being a horrible person. So then you would chaulk it up to a personality/character flaw you have no choice about. You tell her you pity her behavior, but like many who are mentally ill, you will accept her as she is.
And be serious about it.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:27 AM
Re: Gregg
Gregg, seriously? The consensus has been that Lolley is a talented spoofer, but this particular post lacks the imagination of previous posts. I fail to see why getting a smile out of Lolley's posts is insensitive. Now that I am thinking about it, did she/he used to sign as Lollie? Be that as it may, Lolley puts her/his posts out there for anyone to comment upon. Getting amusement out of a post is hardly all out war that some posters here deserve so relax.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:39 AM
Unless LW graduated in a class of 1, he doesn't have any control over who attends the reunion. Ex-GF didn't go to his school, but maybe she was friends with everyone there, or maybe she was home-schooled, and did extra-curricular activities there, and is perfectly justified in attending.Or maybe the reunions are public. My high school reunions are held in a private dining room of a local supper club, and after dinner we all move to the dance area. They don't close down the whole place for us, and if someone wanted to show up after dinner, there wouldn't be any way for any of us to stop them. My cousin's reunions are weekend-long events with activities all over town. Should the ex be banned from city limits in that case? He needs to worry about that which he can control...his own actions and reactions, and not act like a child when he sees her. The relationship didn't work out and it ended badly. OK, that sucks, but let it be done and just move on.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Shirley
Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:10 AM
@nanchan, I do understand, I just wanted to point out that what you thought we disagreed about, we didn't really disagree as much as you seem to have originally thought.

Although I don't have a biracial child, I am in a mixed-race relationship, so I have at least a taste of some of the issues that may come up; that's why I agree that even if familiarity with the child will eventually lead the grandmother to embrace the child and lose her racism, the process itself may be too difficult for a child to deal with, and the original LW as the parent would have to consider the situation very carefully before going down that route, if at all.

Mainly I just wanted to point out that there is actually good, real-world evidence for the Annies' position, that they aren't wrong about their suggestion; familiarity does indeed have a good chance at easing or even erasing the grandmother's racism. But it won't happen overnight, and the LW may quite rightly conclude that she doesn't want to put her child through that exposure to racist attitudes at this point in the child's development.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:13 AM
LW1 asked if he was wrong to feel this way.

Frankly, yes. She was a girlfriend, things ended, she thought she wanted to get back together, it turned out she was wrong. This wasn't your wife or some serious long term relationship. You need a new hobby.
Comment: #35
Posted by: wkh
Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:27 AM
Mike: no offense my friend, but being a partner with someone of a different race is NOT the same as raising a CHILD of any race. Apples and oranges.

Re: Carly O

I get it Carly. I think what you guys are doing is great.

My perspective is a little different because I have an older sibling who has been married for many years to a person of another race. They married when I was about 10, my brother in law to me is as much of a brother as any of my other brothers and in many ways I am closer to him than to my own family. When my sister married him, it was very rare to see bi-racial couples, but we loved him, and my sister, and him joining our family was a blessing.

I also learned how to deal with racism right by watching my BIL. When they first got married, restaurants wouldn't even seat us if he was with us. He never allowed it to bother him (although my sister was livid) Later, when I lived overseas myself, I was the victim of racism myself. Apartment complexes would rent to my husband and I because I am white. Hospitals turned us away when I was pregnant because "we don't allow geigin (foreigners) in this hospital". Needless to say, that experience made me very sensitive to racism.

It's important to know that ignorance is not the same as racism, but many racsists don't even KNOW that they are. the big difference is the DESIRE to get to know how other people live, to try to understand them, to remember that underneath that skin color we are all flesh and bone. that's the basic issue.

That being said, we have to protect our children from racism just like we would protect them any offensive material until they are ready to handle it. And yes, it does come in different shapes. It's not so easy to detect it. People don't come right out and say "I hate all ____ people".... it's not socially acceptable. But if, as in the original LW's case, you KNOW someone is racist, then you have to keep them from your child. Adults can fight this stuff, they can "educate" people, children shouldn't have to bear that burden.

Again, great job and congrautlaions with your new niece!
Comment: #36
Posted by: nanchan
Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:42 AM
Re: Joyce/MN
I am not defending the sister AT ALL, but I have to tell you, your suggestion of counselling actually made me laugh out loud. My brother has been married twice, to two extremely demanding, self-centered women. I've never done anything like he is talking about, leaving one out of any family project - I think that would just bring me down to their childish level. But I do not care for them, and do what I can to limit the time I have to spend with either one. They have both complained about some pretty vicious things I have done over the years, from where their kids were seated in snapshots I took, to someone else getting one more slice of pepperoni on their pizza when I served it. If he ever suggested that he and I go to counselling to get to the root of my animosity, I would probably die laughing.
Of course, he never would suggest it, cuz he would have to hear some things about his wives that he would prefer not to hear.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Shirley
Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:52 AM
@nanchan, that's why I didn't say it was the same, just that my experiences gave me a hint as to the greater issues involved. Honestly, there's a lot less disagreement between us on this issue than you keep indicating today.

Also, while I do understand you have chosen what to protect your child from, I also know of parents of interracial children who would disagree with you; they have equally valid reasons behind their choice, and it seems to have worked out well for them.

Every parent needs to evaluate their individual situation and their risks and decide for themselves what their child can or cannot handle, and whether or not there is value in a certain course of action.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:10 PM
LW1: Don't waste another minute worrying about this woman (girl?). She has issues. Stay away, far, far away. She is enjoying playing you, and it's cruel. Do you best to make a wild success of yourself and find another person who will not jerk you around.
Comment: #39
Posted by: happymom
Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:46 PM
Re: Zoe
The ones who are very mouthy are never completely harmless. Words hurt, especially for a 12 year-old child - this is a vulnerable age. Because of that, even if they are only mouthy, they fall into the active category. As I said, there ARE degrees to it. As for the ones who are very hateful and racist, if they rarely speak to that effect, you can be sure they will be acting to that effect.

If you agree that "the girl's safety and comfort and mental health come before trying to teach grandma to play nice' then what are you remonstrating me about? I didn't suggest she should be put in jail or sent on a rocket to PLuto, just that they should stay away from her, because the chances that she'll hurt the girl are a lot more probable than her having an epiphany on the way to Damascus.

I never said the world was all black and white, nor that there isn't "more to it than Lise B's life experiences", quite the contrary. Now, pray tell, what was that little snark about?

@Carly O
I have never posed as someone who knows everything, this is something I am being accused of by some who seem to resent that I know ANYthing.

As for me, the more I learn, and the more I feel I know nothing, so no, I definitely would not pose as someone who knows everything.

@Mike H
"That's just a personal definition on your part; it's not something that's been used in the sociological and social psychological research"
Yes, it is a personal definition on my part - there is nothing wrong with that. I never pretended it was being used in sociology.

"And doesn't invalidate the research done."
No, it doesn't, and I never said it did. But what I said does't become invalidated because it is my personal definition either.

"I did NOT suggest that exposure and familiarity automatically changes ALL racists; just that attitudes are "MORE LIKELY" to change with familiarity and working together."
Of course, attitudes are more likely to change with familiarity because the great majority of racists are the benign ones. I, too have seen people change with exposure - but it was always the benign, passive, racists-by-habits - not the ones who never miss an opportunity to drip venom or to do something nasty. In my humble, limited experience.

Comment: #40
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:40 PM
LW1: Your ex-girlfriend is using you emotionally. Other guys aren't giving her the emotional support and/or connection that you provided for her, so she's trying to milk you for that while dating/****ing other guys. Block her on Facebook and never talk to her again! It's RARELY a good idea to get back together with an ex. If she was a decent person, she wouldn't have dumped you in the first place! I know this is all easier said than done, but you gotta do what you gotta do! It may hurt for a while, but time heals all wounds! Several people on there said not to date until you are over her, and I agree with them; there's no need to rush into a relationship. Remember, karma will get her eventually! If you find out that she will definitely be going to your class reunion, maybe you should consider not going. That might suck in some ways, but why go if you know she is going to make you miserable? Hmmm...where did her counselor get a degree? Clown College? McDonald's Hamburger University?
Comment: #41
Posted by: Paul
Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:55 PM
@Lise, that's fine, but there's no indication at all that the granny *must* fit your other definition, and there's nothing at all to indicate that she couldn't be someone who would change with greater exposure and greater incentive.

In fact, there's nothing to suggest that there's a special category of racist that can never change; it just requires the right circumstances, regardless of what your limited personal experience has led you to conclude. But that's the problem with extrapolating from limited, personal experience: it can lead people to grand conclusions about human beings that aren't necessarily accurate.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:05 PM
Re: Mike H

I actually do believe that, unless they're socio/psychopaths, all racists (or otherwise bigoted, intolerant people) can change, given the "proper circumstances". Unfortunately, they have to want to, and the more virulent ones are not likely to.

Comment: #43
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:18 PM
What is with everyone suggesting Grandma might change and should be given a chance? She is a grown ass woman, it is 2012, she should be cut off cold 100% if she does not come around. Frankly I think it's shameful this didn't come out in the homestudy. Most agencies will not adopt a transracial (as in different race than the parents) to people who intend to allow racist family members around the child. And I find it neglectful honestly to do anything other than 100% cut off. There's absolutely no use to having anyone like that in a life. Zero tolerance should be the policy. Any man who would want to see his mother who was prejiduced against his child clearly doesn't consider this child to actually be his.
Comment: #44
Posted by: wkh
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:33 PM
re LW3: has anybody thought about how Amanda will feel when she learns that this "friend" is really her grandmother? how will her parents explain that? why expose a child to that kind of toxicity? to give grandmother a chance to act right? she lost her chance!
Comment: #45
Posted by: Zahara
Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:41 PM
Re: Shirley

I added the counseling thing as a bit of humor. Annies' favorite words to use. I highly doubt that counseling would take place. I have a sister who is the same type of person. But she would the one stating that all others had the problem, not her.
Glad for your chuckle.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:14 PM
@Lise, no disagreement there. I believe all sorts of people are capable of changing in all sorts of surprising ways, but ultimately they do have to want to change. Of course, a grandmother beginning to develop a bond with her grandchild *might* be just that kind of incentive, but I also acknowledge there's no guarantees.

@wkh, it's not always that simple, unfortunately.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:21 AM
As the OP (LW1), let me add a few comments. At one point the (ex) GF made the comment that she didn't want to date anyone, then a week later she made the comment that how was she to know if I was the right one for her if she didn't date other guys. One would think that after dating for 2 years she would know.
I have blocked her on Facebook and on my email accounts, though she had already blockied me on Facebook. I have not yet blocked her on my phone, though that may be coming.
The last communcation I had with her was 3 weeks after she sent me her last email stating that we needed to move on since I couldn't be just a friend to her. That last message was a text from her asking if that was me she saw on a motorcycle on the freeway 150 miles north of where I live. A motorcycle she has been on lots of times. So, she should know if it was me or not.
Thanks to all for all the replies.
Comment: #48
Posted by: DLW
Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:48 AM
Re: DLW

And thank you for chiming in. Every so often, we get the proof that what we write is not just a closed-circle conversation, which is gratifying.

Your only real mistake here was telling her you were not completely over her. That got her brain cogs turning, "Oh, so he still LIKES me, I can keep him on the back burner then!". What ensued next is basically cause-to-effect relationship to her reaching that little conclusion.

I agree with the others who suggested the "counsellor" is likely a sock puppet for the ideas she doesn't have the guts to own up to. No self-respecting therapist tells anyone that men and women can't be friends, because that can only be true in a society where women are only good for one thing. We're not under the Taliban here, not to mention that his "advice" would have had to a do complete 360 from the week before, and so her '"counsellor" more than likely doesn't exist.

Good luck, and keep posting! You're welcome here.

Comment: #49
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:29 AM
Re: DLW - Dude, thanks for writing in. Now drop it. Seriously. She's a loser and you need to stop all this now. Block her figuratively and litteraly and drop this drama. You're better than all this.
Comment: #50
Posted by: Rick
Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:50 AM
DLW:

Thanks for writing in! It's good to know that sometimes the LW's are reading here and seeing other opinions.
"
In my post on this (#10) I suggested a few things based on my experiences with someone similar. You say in your last post (48) "One would think that after dating for 2 years she would know." Well, DLW, not necessarily. Dating for 2 years is not marriage. Dating is Dating because you both have the option to move on. She obviously felt some kind of discomfort with the relationship, or she wouldn't have had to go out with other guys to see if you were the One. It just wasn't meant to be.

I say this to you the same way I would if you were one of my guy friends and we were at a bar having a beer together. You have got to stop focusing on this whole deal. I'm not sure if the Annies edited your letter or added the part about the anger, but that's really what hit me first when I read your letter, the anger in it. You have to find a way to let it go. SHE is no longer your concern. Blocking her email, etc, protects yourself, do that. Finding out WHY you are so mad is critical too. When I went through my deal with The Player, I went into counseling and that helped me a lot (although moving helped more!). I believe you can call 211 in CA and they can steer you to a counselor that can take you in on a sliding scale if money is a concern.

And please, deal with your anger before you get into a new relationship. As a woman, I can tell you nothing is worse than going out on a date with a guy who is still pi$$ed at their ex. It is a huge red flag to most women, because if I hear that you are mad at her for breaking up to do something pretty rational (explore other dating options), then I wonder how mad you get at other things and more importantly, how you handle that anger. The hard thing from your side will be learning to trust other women after having had your heart broken.

As others have said, consider yourself lucky that you found this out now rather than after you had married her.

Best of luck and keep us posted on how things go moving forward!
Comment: #51
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:18 AM
@DLW, thanks for letting us know, but I think you just cemented most of our opinion -- this girl is no good for you, and you should block everything -- I think you should be able to block her from texting you as well.

There's really nothing at all to be gained from giving her any more access to you or your feelings. And it's really best for you if you just completely shut the door on the best -- do your best to completely put her out of your mind, don't dwell on what she did, and remember that the next relationship you have will be with someone different who (hopefully) behaves completely differently.

Every relationship is a learning experience, so don't fret that you wasted any time. If it helps, think of your relationship with her as similar to a bike with training wheels, and with any luck, your next relationship will be more mature, more cooperative, and more adult, especially with what you have learned from this relationship.

Try not to hold onto the anger you wrote about in your original letter; yes, she wronged you, but people make mistakes, its often best just to leave it at that, and move on with your life. There's nothing to be gained by hanging on to the anger.
Comment: #52
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:27 AM
Re: Lise Brouillette
LOL...You should really have your own column! You are too funny! Love what you have to say!
Comment: #53
Posted by: Anji
Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:56 PM
Re: Anji

Thank you very kindly. It's always nice to have a little bouquet once in a while amongst all the brickbats.

Comment: #54
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:49 AM
LW1: Stop buying your own crap and selling it to others. The only person you should be mad at is yourself. This woman didn't do anything to you that you didn't allow. You taught her not to value you when you decided she had more value than you. Get some therapy and man up.

LW2: Your wife sounds like a moron. Your sister doesn't sound like a good person so why does your wife need her approval? I hope you're not breeding with this woman. If your wife had any brains she would have went up to your sister with a smile and told her how great the slide show was. Just think how confused your sister would've been. It would have been a hoot.
Comment: #55
Posted by: Diana
Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:31 PM
Good grief, Annies, the next thing you'll tell us is that we should drive inner-city black youths to Aryan Nation and hope that they just get along. Many members of my Louisiana family are hard-core racists. They consider the good old days not to be times of segregation, but times of slavery! If you have racist relatives and want your kids to be tolerant of others, then avoid them at all costs.
Comment: #56
Posted by: TheRichcraft
Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:33 PM
Re: TheRichcraft
Couldn't agree with you more, aptly put.


Comment: #57
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:13 AM
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