Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

Good job Annies. Of course Grandma wants to spend her time babysitting. I will never understand that, because, as much as I love my son, I am very happy to be free from child care responsibilities. This man has the means to go to a warmer climate for the winter, and wants to do so and stay active. The Annies suggest that this man should plan vacations during the time that he can enjoy his primary home, and one better....when winter comes, he should plan on spending even more time with the kids.

Princess Bride, I invite your comments on this one, because the Annies are out of their minds on this one.

I raised my son, and I look forward to granchildren, but I will never be the free day-care grandma. I still work, and even when I do retire, I have a life also. Will I babysit for movies and nights out and even a weekend here and there for my son and his wife, Yes, of course, and will do it happily. But no free day-care here.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the second letter on 20 March 2013.

LW1 - You are your wife are not "babysitting." You're providing full time, presumably unpaid, childcare services, day in and day out, month after month, nine months out of the year, at the cost of your own lives and freedom. You may also be enabling your own children's irresponsible behavior and failure to assume their responsibilities as parents. Don't let your wife blackmail you emotionally into spending the rest of your life babysitting, five days a week, for your children's children. If that's her choice, I'd say she has a problem. But you need to tell her clearly that it isn't yours.

(My posting of course was directed to LW2... LW1 has his hands full with the cranky father)

LW1: I'm sorry to hear that your father's health is in decline, and also that as a result he's becoming increasingly unpleasant to spend time around. Talking to his doctors is an excellent idea, but depending on how far along his dementia is, it may be less useful to have conversations with him about his future care and his demands on your time. However, I think it is important that you start to talk to him about his long-term care. If there is a local senior center, or home health care aides that can visit, that may help stave off the need to think about a nursing home or similar elderly care community. If he is physically healthy, continue to help him find ways to stay active, and maybe meet new friends through his hobbies. And try to find a way to get him to compromise in the amount of time he needs from you. There are no easy answers, sadly, but the extra effort you put in now may help you when he is gone.

LW2: Given the amount of time the LW mentions they are babysitting, it seems the most obvious scenario is that they are providing daycare while their adult children are at work. This seems reasonable and responsible, assuming that you and your wife enjoy the time you spend with your grandchildren.

The real problem here is not that it's too much time to spend with grandchildren, but that you and your wife are not on the same page. You need to have a calm discussion, together, to let her know how disappointed you are about this turn of affairs. Keeping in mind that as unhappy as you are to be spending time up north, she may become equally unhappy in a warmer clime with you but so far away from her grandchildren. This is why compromise may be needed. Have you thought about splitting the time in half? Perhaps you and she could babysit the grandchildren through Christmas, and then after New Year's spend a few months in a warmer climate.

What you do need to understand is that she IS enjoying her retirement by spending time with her grandchildren. What you find enjoyable may be different from what she finds enjoyable. So it is in your best interest to find some middle ground where both of you will be equally happy (or equally unhappy) with the situation.

LW2 - I'm siding here with the LW and with Carly O and sarah morrow. I have no grandchildren, but if I did, the last thing I would want to be is a full-time babysitter (paid or unpaid). I raised both my children and have no desire to start over with it again when I retire. The LW and his wife have earned their right to enjoy life, take trips, or do whatever other retired people do to enjoy themselves.
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The LW needs to have a long talk with his wife and stick to his guns. He isn't the one who needs to bow to her wishes and compromise by taking trips and living his life around his grandchildren's schedules. Insist that their children find other child care for their daily needs. There's nothing wrong with the grandparents babysitting occasionally so their children can take long weekends or have nights out, and so his wife can remain close to their grandchildren, but the full-time day care should be left to someone else. The LW and his wife have their own lives to live and they should be doing just that. The time will come quickly when the children no longer need a babysitter, and by then it's possible that the LW and his wife may not be in good enough health to enjoy their retirement.

I know that I am ridiculously lucky, but my mom does not work and insists on driving an hour each way to babysit for me three times a week while I work. She loves it, frequently THANKS me for "letting" her babysit, and will not accept compensation. There ARE amazing people out there who truly love to help their family and choose to be with their grandchildren over travel and leisure time. That said, if my dad (who still works and loves his job) wanted to retire and travel with her, I'm sure she would want to find a way to make him happy too.

LW1--"This is getting to me and putting a strain on my family. What do you suggest?" Much like a child, you need to set boundaries for your father and then stand firm in insisting that he respect them. The next time your father calls you at work, you simply say "sorry dad, I'm working right now I'll call you back later." Then put your phone on silent and let further calls go to voice mail. When your father demands that you come over to his house for no particular reason say "sorry dad, I have plans today." Rinse and repeat. If your father's behavior is changing as a result of his dementia, speak with his doctor and consider assisted living arrangements.

LW2--Your wife probably feels guilted into caring for your grandchildren, or she genuinely enjoys it; either case I agree it's simply too much. Think about it; if you have the grandchildren five days a week for nine months out of the year, YOU are raising those kids. Your children are egregiously taking advantage of you and your wife for cheap (or free) childcare while they focus on their careers or whatever. Sorry, but that's not how it's supposed to work. It needs to stop for all of the reasons you mentioned and for the fact that your grown kids need to understand what it means when THEY become parents. Have a family meeting during which you outline the importance of prioritizing children in ones life and then turn the childcare back over to your adult children where it belongs. You raised your kids and it's time they did the same for theirs. If they choose to turnaround and farm their kids out to nannies then that's their choice and they will eventually reap what they sow. Now go take your wife on a whirlwind vacation to someplace tropical. Life is short, enjoy it.

LW3--Your idea is fantastic for the small percentage of the population who enjoys working with stray animals day in and day out. I doubt cleaning up dog poop and cat piss while picking would be appealing for people whose ulterior motive is simply to make new friends.

Lw1: It's a tough situation. The nature of the beast with dementia is that the sufferer gets less rational and can have less control over their emotions. Thus, rationally and logically explaining that you don't have time to visit/do chores until the weekend/insert date will not go over as it would with a mentally healthy person. At the same time, catering to your father's whims is no way to go. Dementia can last a LONG freakin' time! My grandmother started showing symptoms of dementia in her mid/late 80s, and she lived to be 95. For my mother and her sisters (no brothers), that was a decade of trying to look after her, and she simply refused a nursing home until she was so far gone she barely knew where she was. (Seriously, they moved her into one and she moved herself out a few months later- we still don't know how she did that!)

To solve your immediate issue, maybe work with him to set up a schedule- a big calendar on the wall that's easy for him to look at and track. Mark on the calendar which days you will visit, which chores you can do, and any other details that might be relevant. He will still likely want you to visit in between, but then you can at refer to the schedule you two made together, and remind him that you'll be coming on (insert date) to see him. He'll still complain, but you're just not going to be able to please him all the time, and at least this way he knows when to expect you. Sadly, this will eventually be less and less of a problem.

LW2: Sounds like grandma is perfectly happy with the arrangement, so blaming the adult kids here might not be the way to go (like Mike said, clearly she babysits while the parents work). It sounds like this might have been approached as a "lines in the sand" conversation where Grandma can only abide babysitting full time and Grandpa wants to not babysit for six months. When bf and I reach an impasse on something, I might just say, "I want X and you want Y. How do we make this happen?" Perhaps grandpa can approach the issue in that way, and see what compromises can be made. Perhaps she would be okay babysitting less often and taking shorter trips, but the idea of not seeing the grandkids for months while she travels is tough on her.

LW1 -
Focusing on one thing to the point of obsession is one of the symptoms of dementia and, since "he has a few hobbies to keep him busy" and his wife is gone, the natural point of focus is you.

Of course, dad is frightened, but reducing you to slavery will do nothing to assuage his fear, nor the reason for his fear. If something, he will only become more demanding and verbally abusive, as the symtoms increase and he's more and more slipping away. Giving in will only reduce you (and your family) to slavery, that's all. Here's what you do:

"Sometimes he calls me three or four times a day, even when I am at work."
You can't let this spill into your livelihood. Instruct the receptionist to check with you first when she recognises his voice, to see if you can take the call. Take one call a day when you're at lunch, the rest of the time, have her say you're in a conference. Believe me, as a former receptionist, I've been told to do the same many times.

"He insists that I go to his house every day, even if there is no particular reason."
Go when you can, offer no explanation other than "I was busy" and no apologies. You do not owe him to divorce your wife and abandon your children.

"He has become demanding, insisting I do things immediately rather than when I have time."
Too flippin' bad. What's he gonna do, send goons to crack a whip on you? Second verse, same as the first.

"He also has grown very mean-mouthed"
Get up and leave when he starts his yurunda, and tell him why.

"and pouts if he doesn't get his way."
Pouting doesn't kill. Let him pout.

And right today, start looking into chronic care facilities. Consult a lawyer about power of attorney. Considering "he has a few hobbies to keep him busy", it is entirely possible that he'll go down rather quickly. You should have the necessary arrangements lined up for when they become necessary, and that might be sooner than you think.

Be thankful your mother is no longer around: you can get away. She would have been completely stuck. And... what the Annies said.

LW1 When my grandmother started showing signs of dementia my mother found a retired nurse who was willing to live with my grandmother and see to her meals and medication. That way my mother could stop by every evening after work and take over on weekends to give the nurse a break. The nurse didn't charge too much as she was drawing her pension, but she also had free room and board while living with Grandma. Some retired people are only in their 60's and healthy enough to work and would love a job like this. Or you might look for younger people to work day shift and night shift.
LW 2 might suggest that his wife give him the month of December, (or whatever cold month), to travel to warmer climes, letting the parents of grand children make their own arrangements for that period. Right now this is not a 50/50 marriage. I do wonder if the kids will deny themselves anything when the older parents develop dementia.

LW2 - hard to imagine, but Annie's advice is far better than many BTL'ers who assume that this is somehow about them and whether they would like to spend their time babysitting their grandkids. It's not about what other people would like to do, it's about what this woman wants to do - stay home & take care of her grandkids, presumably surrounded by a world that is familiar to her - her town, her church, her friends, her familiar stores, whatever support group she has in the town they live in - vs what the LW wants to do - new place, warmer climate, outdoor activities. They do need to compromise and starting with small changes is the way to win the larger change.
LW1 - This is likely to get a lot worse over time, and visiting your dad's doctor to see what's ahead will give you some good info about what to expect. This may be the time to get your dad to get out of his house & into an assisted living facility where he can transition to more care as time goes on. There are doctors who specialize in the elderly, called gerontologists, whom your dad can see & who can help you with what to expect & how to care for him. Suggest you get professional advice as the kind of advice - e.g. setting boundaries, not taking calls - that work with the needy but healthy people won't work with dementia patients.

LW1 - I feel your pain as I'm going through exactly the same thing with my father. My mother (his ex-wife) has been a complete star and taking on duties that neither my brother nor I could do because we worked. But we all recognized that the time was coming where Dad needed to go someplace where he would be taken care of, fed, and kept safe. And we were lucky enough to find that place and be able to afford to put him in. Sadly Dad's filters are failing and his nasty side is coming out, but that's the way the disease is progressing. I take comfort in knowing that he is cared for.

LW2 - Have you had a discussion with your children and let them know how unhappy you are with the current situation? They may be under the impression (provided by your wife) that everything is hunky-dory. It sounds like a family meeting is in order.

LW1, consider that your father may not remember how often he has called you, or when he saw you last. In his mind, he may think he's only calling you a few times a week, and that you haven't been by in days.

LW2, wow, the Annies are totally off base here. So they each have different ideas of what they want to do during retirement, but only the man is expected to give up his dreams while the woman continues to do exactly as she pleases? That is not a compromise, Annies--and he already offered a compromise: he didn't ask his wife to give up babysiting the grandkids altogether, he asked her "to do less". And note that it is not just the wife that is babysitting--it say WE are babysitting--which means the husband is also expected to perform this full-time job.

The LW is wrong. His wife is NOT retired. She has taken on another full-time job, and asked him to as well, which they are probably doing for free, to boot. I wonder what the Annies would have said if the wife had written in, saying now that she and her husband were retired, she wanted to spend at least some time travelling, but her husband said no, because he had decided to take on a full-time volunteer job, five days a week, nine months of the year, trying to save rescued German shepherd dogs? Would they have told the woman that SHE needed to compromise, to do any travelling during those three months and perhaps take the dogs with them? Did they even read that he wanted to travel during the winter, and not the summer?

The real problem here is that the wife is putting her grandkids before her husband entirely. A real compromise would be to have them to cut back to babysitting only six months of the year, and babysit the other six. Te way it stands, she is married to the grandkids, and he might as well go find himself a new wife who is really retired and actually married to him, and willing to at least meet him halfway on his needs.

Response to >Can't force mom in law to exercise< She might have lyme disease, inaccurate tests, misdiagnoses, lack of education in med community has caused a hidden epidemic. I know hundreds in Mass. alone with this story.

"Dementia Dad??????" Uh uh.

kai a. read my mind. Why are all you BTLers assuming LW2's problem is about what YOU would like or not like? His wife obviously enjoys taking care of the grandchildren and whether or not she does it for free is her look-out. He says: "How can I get her to realize that the years slip by, and that if we don't enjoy ourselves now, it may be too late when the grandkids no longer need us to babysit?"

And the Annies are exactly right. Her idea of "enjoying themselves" is obviously not the same as his. By the same token, it does seem unbalanced that he wants to spend the vacation time someplace else with his wife and she doesn't want to go. That's where the family meeting should come in.

Suppose the wife wrote in and said, "My husband and I are both comfortably retired. I babysit two of our grandchildren all week and I love it! We do things together and I feel I'm creating family memories for them that are more precious in the long run than any trips to Florida that my husband keeps insisting that we take. And that's the problem. He keeps wanting me to leave them so we can go off on a trip that I'm not particularly interested in. I want to take advantage of the time I have with my grandchildren while I can before they grow up and no longer need us."

Well?

Re: Chris

Idiot. Most of the unfortunate creatures in shelters are not strays, they're surrendered.

@ Maggie Lawrence: Great point! I was thinking the same thing. It's obvious Grandma is thrilled to be able to have the financial resources to be retired and spend time with her grandchildren. Perhaps she could compromise and do a two week vacation down South after the holidays? She may actually enjoy it once she gets there!

Re LW#2---------Since I'm not seeing anything here that indicates the wife also wants to travel extensively, or live elsewhere for part of the year but feels guilty about stopping the babysitting, and the LW does not say he objects to having the grandkids in the house, only that it keeps them from doing something he wants to do----------whole thing in a nutshell is that they have VERY different ideas about what they wanted retirement to be. Maybe there was discussion about them babysitting, maybe the wife just took it on. Maybe she retired first and was already babysitting when he retired, and now he wants to do something different. Who knows?
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Bottom line-----------he wants to travel, have a summer and a winter residence, etc. She wants to keep the status quo-------living in her own home and maybe traveling only in the summers. I don't see any 'right' or 'wrong' here, but they definitely need some kind of communication and compromise. Not right that she gets it all her way, nor is it right that he gets it all his way.
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I actually know several couples who have this exact same problem with their retirement, and most of them are not even babysitting------------just that one of them wants to stay put, the other wants to travel. She does have a good built-in 'excuse' with the babysitting, but if it disappeared, I would bet she still would want to stay in her own home. (Most of the couples I know who disagree seem to be along the gender lines of this couple-------it seems to be the man who wants to travel extensively and the woman who doesn't. Maybe it has something to do with the 'nesting' instinct, I don't know, or the fact that women tend to not like setting up housekeeping in a motor home or trailer, since it's much more difficult and they tend to be the ones who do most of it. (That sounds judgmental, but it's just based on the anecdotal evidence I see of who does most of the housework, laundry, etc. when both people retire.)
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Anyway-------counseling needed here. Not a cop-out, but they apparently are not getting anywhere trying to solve it themselves, or at least the LW isn't. And the LW going to the kids telling them the babysitting is interfering with what he wants to do in his retirement-------not a good idea. If he does, and as a result the kids find other babysitting and his wife is forced to go live somewhere else part of the year, I see LOTS of resentment there. Don't bring the kids into it till they've made a joint decision. Then present it to the kids, AS a joint decision.
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Re: Lise Brouillette
What happened to a little compassion for the people who gave birth to you and raised you?

Re: Lise Brouillette
What happened to a little compassion for the people who gave birth to you and raised you?

Lw1- I think the Annie's gave good advice. Nothing to add except this is a very sad disease. My mom is 70 and has it and its quite sad.

Lw2- I'm with the posters who say that the Annie's are not correct in their advice. I think it is too much to watch the grandchildren 5 days a week. I'm a mother of 4 and all of our kids know that we are not going to be free daycare when they start having kids. Like some others, I raised my kids and have no desire to raise others and also hubby and I have plans to do things in a warmer climate when we retire.

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I'm with Carly O in that PB is going to have a hey day with the answer the Annie's gave LW 2
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Awwww CHRIS- looks like your personal troll is back. Didn't you miss her?

@ clemma

Idiot! The definition of 'stray' is thus: "Move without a specific purpose or by mistake, esp. so as to get lost or arrive somewhere where one should not be." If you don't think that fits the definition of animals in a shelter, that definitely don't belong there, than you're stupider than I give you credit for.

@ Maggie Lawrence

"I want to take advantage of the time I have with my grandchildren while I can before they grow up and no longer need us."

The husband could have very well ended his letter with "I want to take advantage of the time I have with my wife and travel before we grow too old to do so any longer."

It's a sad situation. It seems to me that they're essentially raising their own grandchildren. If not them, then it would probably be strangers while their grown children focus on their careers. That's an even sadder commentary on the job young parents are doing raising their own children these days.

@ Maggie Lawrence

I fear that if LW2's situation were reversed and it was the husband who didn't want to travel, many of the posters here would berate him for being an inattentive jerk.

LW3 That is a terrible idea for most people. Our local humane society is unbearably loud and smelly. I can't stand to go there but my daughter likes to visit. Very few people could tolerate working in that environment. And you would not be working with other people, just the animals.

Re: L1 @Jane #14
"consider that your father may not remember how often he has called you, or when he saw you last. In his mind, he may think he's only calling you a few times a week, and that you haven't been by in days."

Very good point! He may well not remember how often he is calling or even how often the son visits him!

@sarah stravinska #11
Great suggestion! I'm going to keep that in mind as my dad is elderly and unfortunately starting to show signs of dementia also.

LW2
I have to agree with @Mike H, @jennylee and others here - each of you has different needs and expectations and a compromise or agreement between the two of you needs to be reached. Not everyone's idea of retirement heaven is heading to Florida to play golf and hang out with a passel of retired people. Perhaps time with her family and the ability to assist family means more to your wife as she gets older and realizes that none of us knows how long we might have left.

LW3
Good idea - caring for domestic animals has been shown to reduce anxiety, loneliness and other issues and these abandoned creatures really need the help, PLUS it is a great place for the kind hearted to meet like minded individuals.

Re: red #21
Red, compassion is one thing--------but putting yourself at the mercy of someone's incessant demands is another thing.
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I've gone through life with, at one point, a 'problem' kid, and now, 'problem' parents. I know which one I'd choose, any day. First of all, since I chose to have my daughter, I owe something here. My parents chose to have me, and I have to say, were pretty demanding parents.
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Difference is, I had control over my daughter; I could put my foot down, insist that she do or not do something, etc. AND that responsibility ended at age 18.
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Parents are a whole different thing, especially when they begin to lose their mental faculties. You can't tell them "You need to go to the doctor, so get your coat on, I'm taking you." Nor can you make them take their meds, follow the doctor's advice, or in short, do ANYTHING that might make your life a bit easier, since you're now the caregiver. They insist on managing their money, mess it up, and come to you for help, and you NEVER get to say "If you'd listened to me, this would not have happened." You tiptoe around them and get badmouthed to their friends as being an ungrateful child.
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This poor guy is stuck with a mentally failing, generally obnoxious parent, and it's all on his shoulders. He can't say "stop your whining' like he could if it were his minor child. And from now on it will only get worse till the dad dies. Chances are when it's time to have him transfer to a care facility he will fight it tooth and nail and tell everyone how his son has abandoned him. It's a thankless, never-ending job.
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Sounds to me like he has plenty of compassion; but at some point you have to set limits to unreasonable behavior, like the calling several times a day, and insisting on daily visits. No, he doesn't owe even the best parent in the world that.
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Any living thing in the world can give birth and raise offspring; that alone is not a qualification for sainthood.

Re: Soozan #26
It's very possible that they would. So, as soon as you see an actual letter with that situation appear, THEN let's watch and see what the comments are.
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Lots more accurate to do it that way than to say "I bet if X happened, people would say Y." Actual beats hypothetical any day.

LW2- The grandma gave her word that she would babysit so that their child and spouse could work. The working couple know that they have a reliable, competent person who is trustworthy, and they go to work in a peaceful state, knowing that grandma will not leave their kids unattended when she has a fight with her boyfriend (as happened to a friend I worked with), or refuse to sit for them when the kids are sick. She takes her promise seriously, and she feels useful. Her grandkids love her, and their parents are grateful. Grandpa wants to change it all, because he has affective season disorder, and longs to travel. He not only wants to get away, he wants to go for months at a time. No wonder grandma is resisting. What grandpa wants will disrupt the lives of five people who like things as they are. And grandpa doesn't think that traveling during the 3 months his wife does not sit will work for him. He has to go during the gloomy winter months. Well, boo-hoo. I bet that grandma is willing to go on trips when she is not babysitting, but that isn't good enough for grandpa. He wants it all his own way. And there may be another dimension to this. Maybe the working couple is saving up for a home, or college for the kids, and grandma saving them the cost of a nanny is making that possible. I wish I had had a mom like that grandma. She sounds like a gem. Grandpa, not so much.

Re: jennylee

Given the chances of the same letter appearing with the same situation in the same time frame, "actual" is unlikely to be possible, so I'm more than happy to go with hypothetical. Hypotheses are used all the time. And no one needs you to lecture people on the difference between actual and hypothetical.

Re: @jennylee #29
Exactly - well put! Caring for aging parents is so different from caring for children. You're so right, their maladies only get worse and their expectations regarding staying in their home, healthcare and support are often very unrealistic and since they are adults there is very little an adult child can do.

Another complication that you mentioned and one that I was discussing with a friend just the other day are the generational differences in parenting that we've seen lead to a lack of the same type of comradery and closeness many of us have with our own kids. For example, our parents (mine and my friend's) had an entirely different view of child-rearing than most contemporary parents - children were lesser people than adults, were extensions of the parents, were to serve the parents needs, etc. Also, they were not introspective and felt it was their duty and perogative to instill their view of the world. Anyway, we were reflecting that in our case and neighborhood, they didn't just do less of the many tasks we perform as part of the "support team" for our teens (sounding board, educational encouragement, financial help towards becoming independent, encouragement of a child's interests, etc.) they literally didn't do any of the them at all and left us to our own devices on many fronts.

Re: Soozan #32
You're right, no one needs to be told the difference between actual and hypothetical. One really happened, the other one hasn't.
One is easy to prove or disprove, because it has actual facts to look at. The other can't be proven, or disproven, because it hasn't actually happened. So you can use any argument you like, and who can argue with it?

LW1 - This is tough because your father's demands and sharp tongue are likely due to his dementia. A good friend of my mother's has a father with advanced Alzhiemer's disease and it's so sad to see him. He used to be such a nice man and now he screams, yells and snaps at everyone. It's not his fault. The doctors say his brain is pretty much swiss cheese. I would talk to your father's doctor about what you can do. I think assisted living sounds like it would be a good idea but I would talk to his doctor first.

LW2 - Your wife either loves to be a babysitter or she feels obligated to do it. Either way, you don't have to if you don't want to. Do you what you please. A friend of mine has parents who have a beach house in another state. Her father goes there without his wife sometimes. She wants to spend some time at home and he doesn't want to so he goes down there and eventually, she joins him. It works for them and it could work for you.

JustBecause - what you wrote is exactly my point. You wrote: "I think it is too much to watch the grandchildren 5 days a week. I'm a mother of 4 and all of our kids know that we are not going to be free daycare when they start having kids. " And again I have to say - it isn't about what YOU think is too much. It's about what LW2's wife wants - which differs from what he wants. Clearly, she likes doing this or she wouldn't be doing it - and would certainly be more interested in taking trips with her husband.

Chris, I see what you're saying, but presumably this husband has had his entire married life to be with his wife. Now he's just talking about a change of climate and he wants her to go too. It doesn't seem to me that it's so much about rescuing her from a burden that she has happily taken on, but persuading her to give up the thing she enjoys in order to do what he wants. Either way, he's living with her.

Re: clemma #18
And what difference does that make, pray tell? Last I checked, strays piss and poop the exact same as "surrendered".

@Red #22
Where do you get that I have no compassion? I never suggested that he throw in the towel and write him off, I'm suggesting that he set some boundaries. "Compassion for the people who birthed you" does not involved not having a life. And it certainly does not involve putting up with verbal abuse. Not to mention that you owe something to your children, because you presumably had them by choice and they certainly didn't ask to be born, but you don't owe anything to your parents. Oh, giving back is the decent thing to do, but it's like tipping for good service, you know? It is not owed, and you certainly don't owe them to break your back doing it.

I'd like to see how compassionate YOU would be, if some parent demanded that you be on duty 24/7/365 and only got verbal abuse as a thank you!

@Patty Bear #31
I wouldn't say that grandma sounds like a gem, and grandpa not so much. It's just that, as several have noted, they have very different ideas about what constitutes an ideal "retirement". Neither one is right or wrong about that, but what IS wrong is that one gets her way 100% of the time and the other, 0%.

@Michelle #35
"I think assisted living sounds like it would be a good idea but I would talk to his doctor first."
Yes, but the one he should talk to first is a lawyer about power of attorney - without which the physician will not be able to discuss anything with the LW.

@Maggie #36
"persuading her to give up the thing she enjoys in order to do what he wants."
Seems to me she doing what he wants some of the time and he doing what she wants some of the time would be fair enough.

Re: Lise (#37)

This post is regarding your response to Red (#22). I have sensed for awhile that even though you come off tough, you have a thin skin when it comes to “verbal abuse”. I get that you had a hard childhood, but you need to understand that most people CAN handle the “verbal abuse” which you seem to think is personal. The nurses in the geriatric unit live it constantly and can laugh it off, simply because they know it is not personal. An adult “child” is usually capable of the same, considering that they would have been educated enough to know that the words are NOT PERSONAL.

People are capable of letting hurtful word slide off their shoulders, when they understand the reasoning (filter has gone, brain tumor…), but some people (apparently like you) are unable to let it go, and take it personally.

Yes, compassion is the deal when people age, and develop mental illnesses through no fault of their own.

I know that you are capable of grasping that “thicker skin”, how about congratulating those who have reached that position? This LW is not quite there yet, but I believe he can do it!

@Maggie #36- I understand what you are saying. Hubby and I have already discussed these things so I assumed most (if not all adults) have discussed this already. I like the idea someone else came up with (can't remember who) in that hubby does what he wants and wife joins him BUT depending on how far away their Winter home is, that may not be possible..in my mind, retirement is not watching grandkids 5 days a week, its doing things with my hubby... Things I worked a lifetime for. Obviously, this couple has a different idea of what retirement is and it would benefit them to meet with a counselor to hash out their differences as well as a middle ground.

Re: Jenna #38
Actually, no, I don't have a thin skin about verbal abuse at all, in fact I'm the toughest cookie I happen to know personally - I wouldn't be able to tolerate the likes of Iffa (ex LOML) if I was at all fragile - he has mental issues (probably chronic depression), and he can be VERY mean-mouthed, and keep in mind this is the man I love.

But there is nothing he can say that can hurt me because I am at peace with myself (I didn't say I was content ;-D), in the sense that I know where I stand, what responsibility I bear in where I stand and what responsibility I don't. I am very strong emotionally. Most people under the kind of stress I've been under for almost 20 years now, would long ago have picked up a rifle gun and started shooting in the crowd.

But I do have ZERO tolerance for the verbal abuse I believe people should tolerate, because most people are NOT at peace with themselves, know where they stand, yadda yadda yadda. If I look around me, I can't think of anyone I know who could take constant (operative word here) verbal attacks and not be damaged in the short, medium and long run. Even when you know intellectually that "it's not their fault", there is still that Chinese water torture wearing down the rock emotionally. The only ones immune are the ones (like me) who cannot be convinced that they are worthless... and who therefore can say no without being vulnerable to a guilt trip. And those truly, verily are extremely few and far between. I don't know any other than myself... and I know so many people...

Wife-beaters hate my guts on sight, btw - one look at me and they instictively know that they can't break me. I have been told this inner strength is also what makes me come on so strong, even if I'm just standing there dressed in beige with my trap shut and doing nothing. Aw well. The yin and the yan, I guess. It IS handy on stage, though! ;-D

I do hope that you're right, and that there are many people out there who can "take it". I just don't happen to know any. And I sure hope you're right, and that the LW can become one of them. It would be best for all concerned.

P.S.: The nurses are in a much better position to "let it slide" because they are not close to the mean-mouths. The mean mouths don't know anything deeply personal about them, AND there is no emotional involvment.

P.P.S: My hard childhood and youth did not involve abuse, either physical or verbal. It involved a severely traumatised and consequently suicidal mother who killed my brother and tried to kill me, and eventually a very young stepmother and a very neglectful father. I think I came back from the other side even stronger than I already was. What doesn't kill you... ;-D

@JustBecause #39
"I assumed most (if not all adults) have discussed this already."
Ho ho ho. If I look around me, you wouldn't *believe* the number of people who don't discuss anything, hoping that, either there will never be a need for it, or things will magically fall into place. What can I tell you...

Re: Lise (#40) - I DO understand what you are saying, yet it has NOTHING to do with the LW. If you believe that ONLY nurses should have the tolerance to deal with the aging (whatever mental illness they might be fighting), then, yes, I am right, you do not have a thick skin.

In your P.S. you brought up emotional involvement. AGAIN, these illnesses do not occur in a day. Over time you become subjected to (and accustomed to) the erratic behavior, and you do not take it personally. Whatever they say, let it go. Believe me the things that came out of my father's mouth before he passed weren't pretty. I would tell my siblings to get it off my chest, but my father? No, he wouldn't have remembered saying it – right after, or days later. Not worth it.

At that stage you are not close to the “mean-mouths”. They are not the same people that you once knew. Please understand that there is no emotional involvement for them, so there shouldn't be any for you – no matter WHAT comes out of their mouths.

Give them compassion, feed them, sing to them, massage their arms, and ignore the nonsense that normally would cause a sting – they cannot be held responsible.

Re: Patty Bear

You are ridiculous. When people choose to become parents, they damn well better be able to act like parents and be able to provide for their children. No way they get to rely on their parents to continue to baby them to the extreme that they have to raise their grandchildren also. I said it earlier, but I am done raising my son. I will adore his children, and I will be over the moon to babysit when they want to go to a movie or a party, or even for a weekend sometimes and take my grandchildren on some fun trips. But I do not owe him free child care. I just owe my son's family love, support, and keeping myself and my husband happy and healthy so we don't become a burden on them.

Re: Lise Brouillette
"My hard childhood and youth did not involve abuse, either physical or verbal. It involved a severely traumatised and consequently suicidal mother who killed my brother and tried to kill me."

Lise, how on earth can you say that your childhood did not include abuse when your mother killed your brother and tried to kill you?

I don't even know what to say anymore about you. Hope you find some kind of peace if any of this sad story is true.

Re: Lise Brouillette
"My hard childhood and youth did not involve abuse, either physical or verbal. It involved a severely traumatised and consequently suicidal mother who killed my brother and tried to kill me."

Lise, how on earth can you say that your childhood did not include abuse when your mother killed your brother and tried to kill you?

I don't even know what to say anymore about you. Hope you find some kind of peace if any of this sad story is true.

@Carly O, responsible working parents make arrangements for daycare. If that arrangement is a loving grandparent, then there is absolutely nothing irresponsible and there is no way they are NOT "providing for their children".

Unless you think that only one parent should work and the other MUST take care of all the childcare (and old-fashioned and clearly dying family set up if you look at the demographics), then your extreme negativity about the grandmother choosing to help her family by taking care of her children seems well off-the-mark.

You keep missing the point that just because you feel you don't OWE child support to your son's children, that other grandparents might feel VERY differently, and might happily VOLUNTEER for such a role. Frankly, the fact that you so stubbornly don't realize that not everyone feels like you do is a bit ridiculous here, not Patty Bear's answers. There's no suggestion that this grandmother was coerced or guilted into this, but rather that she enjoys it.

I've also, I believe, mentioned my great uncle, who babysat HIS grandchildren eagerly and happily and every time we visited that side of the family, he couldn't stop talking about how much taking care of those kids meant to him.

The point you need to realize, Carly O, is that some grandparents DO actually WANT to do this sort of thing, and just because YOU aren't one of those grandparents, it doesn't make the LW's situation wrong or the parents "bad" or "lazy" or "taking advantage of" in any way, shape, or form.

Different people like different thinks, Carly O. And different grandparents like to spend their time in ways different from you.

@Jenna and @Carly O
I feel it's very poor form to drag a poster's personal history into this forum even if the poster has brought it up themselves and "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak on prior occasions. @Jenna, you sound like you mean well, @Carly O, not so much.

Anyhow, all of us are shaped by our history and deserve compassion and respect on this forum. Bringing up old history during a discussion is like "unfair fighting" between spouses when one insists on trotting out past events during an argument that have no bearing on the situation unless one is playing amateur psychologist and lording their "professional opinion" over their spouse. I know you both have opinions on what events you think have informed Lise's opinions, but expressing them here is in very poor taste.

Re: Carly O #44 & 45
Actually, strange and contradictory as it may sound, my childhood did NOT involve abuse even though she did kill my brother and tried to kill me - before lighting the fire and taking her own life.

She did that because she was made severely, chronically depressed, to the point of being actively suicidal, by of the horrible sexual abuse she suffered for years: her own mother pimped her out, to men who brutalised her. And do keep in mind this was the late 40's - no abused women's shelters, no CPS, women were legal minors transferred from their father's house to their husband's like cattle, rape victims were blamed, prostitutes were the lowest of the low and there to be used and abused, NOWHERE TO GO. Especially in rural Quebec.

My father rescued her from that by marrying her, but he could fo nothing about the damage. Treatment for trauma back then was Valium, electro-shocks and Freudian school therapy, where women are born guilty - I really don't think any of these would have helped.

She only had a 4th grade from school, there was no Ann Landers in the French paper and no Internet. So no education, no information and and no points of reference. She was convinced the same fate awaited both of us the minute we turned pubescent - that's what had happened to HER. She did what she did because she was trying to protect us.

Until that fateful May day, she had been an exemplary mother - the house was Spic & Span and we were both impeccable. The house, she and us kids all looked like a page out of a magazine. On the rare days when we didn't come home to eat at noon, we had a good lunch for school or money for the cafeteria. Our clothes were clean, pressed and mended, our homework done, our schoolbooks and everything about us was in good order. The bedsheets were ironed. A snack awaited us when we came home and the evening meal was ready on the dot of six. Life lessons were gently taught when necessary. She was loving and attentive, with never a put-down of any kind, even when she was stinkingly mad and spitting nails about something stupid we had done. Spanking was common back then. And yet, in 12 years, I don't remember being under the rod more than once. Whatever I remember of her mothering is like a story in a book, and when I look back at it, it's almost surreal and caricatural with near-perfection.

Considering what she had been through, I find it remarkable that she was pretty much the perfect mother. Abnd yet this remarkable woman killed my brother and tried to kill me. It is damaging even when you know why she did it, and it took me some time to get over it. And yet, life with my remarried father was far worse than my childhood had been. I was not wanted, and many are the times when I wished I hadn't survived. I remember telling one of the aunts I was shoved at that the ideal would have been that I either die in the fire or be old enough to fend for myself when it happened, and how shocked she was at hearing that from a 15 year-old.

Indeed, I am at peace with it now and have come to terms with it. I am older and more mature, and I understand that what she did was not an act of malice. She was not trying to destroy us, she was trying to protect us against destruction - as a believer, she did not believe that death was the end of everything, and she did know from experience that there are fates that are worse that death.

Coming back from the brink after a near-death experience definitely has given me the strength of a shining beacon. But I do know this does not go for everyone, hence my zero tolerance on what I believe most people should tolerate in terms of abuse. If someone can really take it, sure. But those who cannot detach themselves emotionally and are therefore continually hurt by it should keep away from it, lest they be slowly destroyed. "Not their fault" doesn't mean "acceptable".

Oh look, Lise Brouillette is portraying herself as a victim again.

Someone needs attention. Again.

Re: Princess Bride
Where did you get that I'm crying over myself? But then, you always read everything all jumbled up. I would tell you to go to hell, but I think youlre already there.