Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 23 February 2013, which itself referred to the second letter on 4 January 2013 (Midwest Cook). There were other follow-up letters on 8 February (Mike in Hawaii), 11 March (No Fish, Please) and 26 April (Mom of a Super-Taster).

LW1 -
Frankly, and unless you are guilty of all the horrible crimes against humanity, sorry, the paper the Annies list... I already thought your wife and her snitty girlfriend were being ridiculous. And now you're not even allowed to go get your own paper? What's this, a conspirary against you reading the paper?

Call the subscription department the next time, take a temporary, four-day subscription for the address where you're staying and have the goddamn paper delivered to your name. Good flamin' grief, of all the petty things for a couple of bitchy females to carp about... I would tell you what to tell HER (namely WITH the rolled-up paper, about which I'd have precise suggestions), but some of my poor fellow posters here would cardiac-arrest right there on the spot, and I doubt I would get past the bot anyway... ;-D

LW2 -
Yes, she should have taken the aisle seat. But perhaps her mother is even more incapacitated than her, and it doesn't show. It doesn't always.

LW1: Did you, by any chance, take the newspaper into the (ahem) . . . lavatory?

LW1: This is why I am so glad I have an tablet. If I'm bored somewhere, I can read my own newspaper.

But since you don't have one: Is it possible (as one commenter suggested) that you're doing something to the paper to make someone not want it afterward? Like taking it to the bathroom or making a big mess with it, or with the coffee when you get up in the morning. If you feel like you're covering all of your bases here, then it sounds like your wife is being a little bit of a control freak. Considering the fact that you've offered to step out and get your own paper, I'm guessing it's the latter.

Maybe I'm being cranky tonight, but I'd tell the wife that I am not going to go somewhere for three days if I have to sit and stare at the walls until she and her friend decide to get up in the morning. Either she can go alone, you two can stay in a hotel or she can back off and let you do your morning ritual.

LW2: It would have been polite for her to take the aisle seat, but you can't always make other people be polite. Perhaps next time, you should talk to an usher. They may have been willing to move either you or them.

LW1: Or an alternative. Perhaps you could offer to go pick up donuts or some other sort of breakfast for everyone while getting your newspaper. How many posts do we see here from hosts who feel put out that guests expect them to provide all of the meals with no reciprocation.

L1/Datura - exactly my thought - a newspaper? Made out of trees? Newspapers are practically extinct, this won't be a problem in a few years when everyone else is on board with reading digitally; nondestructively. In fact, you can get your hometown paper instantaneously, instead of sneaking the newspaper of the town you're visiting, from your hosts. Anyway, yet another good reason to look forward instead of wistfully backward.

LW2: If you were with your 8-year-old granddaughter, why didn't you switch with her? Obviously, she's tiny, so the lady spilling over into her seat wouldn't have bothered her as much, if at all! I'll bet the big lady was wondering to herself "why is this full-sized lady cramming herself into the seat next to me, when she's with a little girl?"

But on the flip side, I have some experience with this. I am almost 6'3" (but not very wide), I pretty much have to have an aisle seat in older theatres, or I will be so jammed in I'll be in pain. I also try to get a seat towards the side or the back, otherwise I sit down and immediately I hear from behind me: "sigh. SIGH. mumble mumble. Will you switch with me? sigh."

@Lise - yes her mother might have been incapacitated, but it's also important to consider other people, not just yourselves (as mentioned above, I would rather sit to the side and not bother anybody than sit 5th row center and annoy people).

LW1: I think this is one of those non-issues that simple communication can and should resolve. Just mention your early rising to the host/hostess and ask what they think would be acceptable. Or bring your own book, and read it in bed when you wake up in the morning and read that, or go outside and read on the steps or at a local coffeeshop -- whatever the host/hostess react the best to.

LW2: While I'm sure it was uncomfortable, what you (and the Annies, apparently) might not have realized is that the woman's mother could also have had a health condition that necessitated the aisle seat. Try not to jump to too many negative conclusions about other people, even if you were a little inconvenienced.

LW1 - You can't read the paper before the host and you can't go out and buy your own paper...geez...can you do anything right??? I'm being sarcastic with that remark but really...I think your wife a bit of a bug up her butt about this. Unless you're taking the paper into the bathroom or crumpling it up, I see nothing wrong with getting the paper before anybody else is up. As long as you leave it neat for the host to read...what's the big deal? My parents still get the newspaper and they would have no problem with a house guest getting it and reading it if they were up before them.

But I like what the Annie's suggested. Ask the host ahead of time if they would mind if you got it and read it before them. If they would mind, then I see nothing wrong with getting your own paper. And if your wife has a problem with it, then that's her problem to deal with.

LW2 - When you buy seats for something, there's always a chance that you're going to sit next to someone that's large and spilling over, that stinks of BO/cigs/perfume, that has an annoying habit like snapping their gum etc. There is no gurantee that you're going to be seated next to the perfect person. You could've asked an usher if you could be moved but if they can't move you, then you have to suck it up or leave the theater. It's the chance you take when ordering tickets.

LW1 - Mike H already said almost exactly what I was going to say. Simply ask the host/hostess if they have any objection to your reading the paper before they see it and if they prefer you don't, then bring something with you to read until everyone else is up and finished with it, or find something else to occupy your time until the rest of the household is up and moving. No major problem here that simple communication won't solve.
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LW2 - There can be many reasons why the heavy woman chose the seat she did, and obviously there's no point in obsessing about it at this point. It seems as though the simple solutions would be to have either switched seats with the LW's much smaller granddaughter or asking the usher to change their seats if possible. This is one of the situations that you simply have to expect and deal with when you're attending the theater, movie, or other venues where you will be seated in close proximity with other people.

LW2: I feel the need to be “politically incorrect”. In these times (where obesity has hit an all time high) I feel that changes should be occurring across the board. Why is it that a smaller person looses half of her seat because a larger person melds right into the space that she is not occupying? What if she needs to shift? Turn the other cheek, as it were? Where would the obese person shift to – aside from the thin person's space?

I think that the times have come to provide each person his/her own space. If a person cannot fit into said space, they must spend the money to purchase enough space to compensate for their size.

I wish I could say sorry, but my tiny body was enclosed by a “not so tiny body” on my travel to San Diego last Christmas. She refused to allow the arm rest down because she didn't fit – crap!! It was a five-hour ride, and I was stuck next to a baby elephant who felt entitled to occupy half of my seat (give me half my money, if I can't have half my seat!).

I am not a bitch, I am a realist. If you take up more space – you need an extra seat. Why do you pay the same amount as I for a seat, yet take up all of yours, and half of mine? See it works both ways – pay for the amount of space you take up, and we will too! Rant ended…

LW2: You're STILL stewing about this and need to write to an advice columnist about it?!

LW1, etiquette would dictate your hostess be gracious and encourage you to read the paper, no matter how badly you might mangle it. You were her guest. Next time I'd opt out of the trip and let the girls have their time alone.

Agree with Jenna. Everyone is making excuses for the fatties. Oh it's a glandular problem. Oh they have a hidden disability.

No. 99 percent of them are just gluttonous selfish idiots. Fatties of the world, if you can't control your nonstop consuming, then stay home.

We should really think about rounding up these fatties on some farm and FORCE them to reduce.

...not QUITE where I was going with my rant *sigh*

Dear LW1,

Of course you are wrong. It doesn't matter that you are an early riser or that this whole ridiculous argument is about a newspaper. You are a MAN. That makes you, at least to the fat Annies and their minions, a despicable, disgusting individual who can do nothing right.

The correct course of action would have been for you to get up early and spend your time cleaning the house and cooking for your fat wife and her fat friend, and then doing the dishes and spending the rest of the day catering to their wishes. Even then, they would have likely found something to gripe about, but you'd have been in a better position.

Remember that. MEN are to blame for EVERYTHING.

LW1--It never ceases to amaze me what causes a kerfuffle for some people. Personally I love a brand new newspaper. When someone else reads it first, ruffling all the pages, etc., it sort of feels like a used tissue afterward and holds far less appeal. I don't know why, call me crazy. In any case, you could avoid this scenario in its entirety by either going out for your morning coffee and picking up your own newspaper or by dragging yourself into the twenty-first century and purchasing a tablet computer. The added bonus with the latter, in addition to Internet and e-mail access, is that you can load it up with all of your favorite e-books or music playlists as well as your favorite games. Suggest this to your wife as a birthday present this year.

LW2--Sweetie, you need to accept the fact that obese people exist in this world. Not everyone cottons to today's unrealistic standards of diet and exercise. Occasionally you're going to be forced to sit next to one of these people at a show or on an airplane so you might as well quit trying to micromanage the seats these people choose and keep your vitriol to yourself. It's unrealistic to expect obese people to become reclusive shut-ins because you don't want to give up your armrest or wait a few minutes after a show to exit the aisle. This might come as a shock, but the world does not in fact revolve around you.

LW1 -

I'm just curious, did you keep the paper AFTER your wife told you it was wrong to get it before the hostess? Frankly it wouldn't bother me (not that I receive a newspaper) and I think 99% of people wouldn't be bothered if a guest got the newspaper first, but some people have weird quirks about things and your hostess appears to have a weird quirk about her newspaper. The polite thing to do would have been to have asked, because her newspaper is still technically her property (just like you'd ask if you could read a book off her shelf or turn the tv on).

Your wife may be overreacting to her friend's reaction to your "theft" of her precious newspaper, which is why she's freaking out about the newspaper on your next visit. The Annies solution is a good one - just be upfront and ask. Or invest in a tablet so you can read the newspaper whenever you want without wasting paper.

LW2 (/ Jenna / Dorothy P) -

Yes, most fat people are to blame for their weight and yes, THEY should be the ones who accommodate everyone else. But we live in a society and that doesn't always happen. It's a risk you take when you go outside and engage with other people. There's nothing you can do about it, really, other than speak to an usher, leave (and ask for a refund) or tolerate it.

LW3 -

Many of the things I was forced to eat I still hate - grapefruit and porridge to name two examples. It never seems to accomplish anything to force kids to eat anything.

Chris wrote:

"Not everyone cottons to today's unrealistic standards of diet and exercise"?

LOL

Re: Zoe
Just curious -- what exactly IS porridge? The only time I've ever heard of it was in Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

LW1: "I figure I'll just go out for coffee somewhere and buy a paper. My wife says it would be rude to take off at breakfast. Is this idiotic or what?"

It seems to me your wife is in a snit about a solution you found to your problem – being respectful of your host by getting your own newspaper at the local coffee shop. Your wife needs to come up with something better to gripe about and realize you have your own routine that you'd rather stick to.

I do think the first host should have told you directly if taking her newspaper bothered her (e.g., "Do you mind? That is MY newspaper to read first, not yours"). I don't think you meant to be rude or anything, but if it bothered her, she needed to be upfront with you, not just hold it in and then bitch to your wife. (Then again, their yakking into likely the wee hours of the morning like they were living in a college dorm might speak volumes.)

As far as tablets ... yeah, that's one way to handle things, I agree. But I'll vouch for a second for the good ol'-fashioned print paper. Many newspapers that are online now and/or have mobile apps for tablet computers have the stories, obits, sports results and so forth ... but the ones I've used – and there are several – tend to not include some of the photos, advertising inserts (except for those irritating national ads about stocks, insurance tips, etc.), comics, crossword puzzles and other word games ... and – drumroll please – the print version of advice columns such as Annie's Mailbox.

Also, unless it's a pay-per-view site – which many newspapers are moving toward – most "free" newspaper sites don't and won't put "everything" up (such as, complete versions of stories, full obituaries and so forth), which also entices one to buy the newspaper or get a subscription.

And, there is NOTHING like reading all about in in good ol' black and white (although most papers these days are color), to hold it in your hand and read the day's news. That's a pleasure no gadget can give you.

Call me old-fashioned, but even in this day and age of tablet computers and online newspapers – which IS the way newspapers are going – for the time being there is still an excellent case for print.

LW1 -- Since your letter makes your wife sound completely off her rocker, I can't help wonder why you're married to her. Which, in turn, makes me wonder if we're not getting the whole story here. As others have suggested, I'm wondering if you are doing something to render the paper "unappealing" to the next potential reader. I'm also wondering if this has more to do with your entire early to bed, early to rise routine while on vacation. When people stay with me, I always try to be up before them. Not so that I am the first one to read the paper, but so that my guest isn't put in the position of feeling like s/he has to tiptoe around so as not to wake up his/her host and so that my guest doesn't have to try to "forage" -- be it for the morning paper, breakfast, what have you. Mind you, on those occasions when a guest has managed to wake up before me, I don't consider them rude for having gotten up before me -- I just feel bad that they were "stuck" waiting for me. So, let me offer a possible letter from your hostess:

Dear Annies: a good friend of mine and her husband recently visited and stayed at my house for a few days. It's been years since my friend and I could reconnect like that in person, so we stayed up pretty late catching up. I could certainly understand that her husband wasn't all hot and bothered to stay up with us, but each night, he made it pretty plain he was annoyed that we weren't keeping the same hours as he was, with snarky remarks about us "yakking all night long" and such. Then, when he'd get up before us in the morning, he would take no care at all to be quiet, slamming the door when he would go outside to get the paper, then traipsing all through the house with said paper, leaving a trail of newsprint through the house. By the time he was done with that paper, all it was fit for was lining the bird cage -- and I don't have a bird. I tried to be gracious about it, but as the visit continued, he seemed more and more annoyed at his wife and me for "yakking all night long" and seemed to be venting that frustration with further snarky remarks before going to bed, thumping around the house in the morning and tearing apart the newspaper. Honestly, I understand that he wasn't interested in listening to us rehash old times and wouldn't have blamed him for retiring early or waking up early, either, but his passive-aggressive behavior made it awful difficult for me to stay in charity with him. How do I tell my friend that next time (if there is a next time), she should come by herself?

Now, I've just spun quite a yarn there, and there might not be any truth to it at all. It's just one possibility, and I offer it up because, in my experience, when a letter comes in where it is just so patently clear that one person is completely out of his/her mind and the other person is completely rational and sane -- and yet these are supposed to be two people who love each other and are happily married -- I start to wonder about the veracity of the LW having a monopoly on sanity in that relationship. It can and does happen. And, in particular, it can and does happen where there is one particular area/pet peeve that one spouse is crazy is about (as opposed to just being crazy all the time, in which case, we come back to the fact that you CHOSE the crazy spouse). So, as others have noted here, if you are certain you've covered all the bases here, then it sounds like your wife is a bit nuts about guest etiquette.

But good news -- the problem is super easy to solve, as other have already suggested! Simply tell your hosts that you are an early riser and don't want them to feel obligated to wake up when you do and then offer to be in charge of getting the newspaper, breakfast, making coffee, etc. Alternatively, bring a book and read in bed until you have reason to believe your hosts are up. This just isn't that difficult. That you and your wife are perseverating over this is just another reason that I can't help wondering if you haven't been entirely forthcoming about what your morning routine really entailed.

Kitty, I agree with your suggestion that LW2 should have simply traded seats with her 8 yr old granddaughter. Problem solved, no stewing.

I think LW1's hostess should have done everything possible to be accomodating to her guests. Not only should she have said nothing about the newspaper, she should have made sure he knew where the coffee, muffins, and tv remote were so that he would be comfortable in the morning. He was wronged by his wife and her friend.

LW2: The aisle seat suggestion aside, I actually find myself agreeing with Chris this time.

Sometimes, people have quirky preferences, and it appears this woman didn't want the aisle seat for some reason. Whether it indeed was to better accommodate her mother or the venue's rules about sitting "where you're supposed to" is hairsplittingly strict, I don't know ... still.

I suspect the LW is probably married (i.e., the spouse didn't go with), so the biggest issue here is likely just feeling "scrunched" within her seat. I'm no lightweight, as many of you probably remember from my past posts, but even then I'm not near large enough to have to sit on the arms and possibly encroach on others around me. So when someone does sit next to me that is, well, rather large (to put it politely) ... it can feel uncomfortable.

What can you do about it, then?

• Ask the usher if you can switch seats. (Not always possible, however.) Short of that, you and your granddaughter – she takes up less room – could switch seats.
• Go to a different showing.
• Grit your teeth and bear it for a couple of hours.

I realize it's tough when you sit next to someone undesirable ... flat out ugly and (in this case, large) when you were hoping a hot chick sits next to you. Same goes with someone who has offensive body odor, has an oxygen tank that takes up virtually the entire walking space between seats and then they still breathe heavily ... the list goes on. Not everything can be helped.

The best solution is one of the three I gave above, and try to make the best of things.

Re: Kitty

Hot cereal... oatmeal or whatever.

The dictionary says: "a food made of oatmeal, or some other meal or cereal, boiled to a thick consistency in water or milk."

Mmm, delicious. Not. I would try to dilute it with brown sugar and more milk but then there would be more of it to eat. They would have been better off just giving me cheerios or something.

Re: Bobaloo

LW2 is a grandmother in her 50s at least and probably heterosexual - I doubt she was hoping for a hot chick to sit next to her.

Re: Lisa (#21)

I think after reading your theorhetical letter from the "host's viewpoint," I would recommend staying in a hotel or just not going.

Then again, I see nothing about his showing courtesy and respect for those who choose to sleep until noon on a weekday. As such, I presume he was respectful and "quiet as a mouse" when getting up for his morning routine.

Lisa, thank you for proving my point.

In situations like this, the Annies' bigoted minions will always pull one sentence from a letter and use it to turn the blame around on the male LW.

MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.

LW2@ I do remember several years back when the airlines got into a 'public debate' about charging people over a certain weight for a second ticket. I also remember thinking at that time that it could be a good idea. A 5 hour flight crammed into the already tiny coach seats is most uncomfortable to begin with, without having some of your seat taken up by someone else. I don't believe that my comfort should be infringed upon by a total stranger when we have both paid the same price for a ticket. Either I would have to pay for first class or the other person pay for a second seat. Since neither did anything 'wrong' the onus is on the person ' causing' the problem - they should be the one taking responsibility to remedy it. All that said, I would have asked for different seats. In the event that there were none, a talk with the manager was in order. There is no reason why the LW's enjoyment should have been ruined. Certainly this is not the first time the 'large woman' has inconvenienced someone in a public venue.

LW1
Use some of the cash you're saving from not having to pay for a hotel on these trips and buy an tablet or laptop so you can read the news and otherwise entertain yourself while traveling or just stay in a hotel so that you can have your space and privacy with no one breathing down your neck.

Re:L2
There is no reason that theaters or other public venues can't install some seats to accommodate larger than average people other than the fact that it's in their economic best interest to cram as many people in as possible. Also true for airlines. Until more of us start complaining (it may take class action suits as well) nothing will change. It is unfair to the smaller person and the larger person. Airlines could charge 1-1/2 times the fare for a larger seat instead of for two seats. Also since people are larger than in the past, public venues and transportation should be forced to model accommodations on realistic standards not body sizes from the 1950s.

On another note, the large woman chose her seat to inconvenience a stranger rather than her family by choosing the seat next to the LW. Other wise she would have placed her daughter next to the LW. So I'm thinking she indeed did know what she was doing and chose her mothers comfort over the LW's.

Re: EstherGreenwood
I agree that people are larger than they were in the past - I'm not heavy, but I AM relatively tall (5'8"), and the countertops in most older kitchens and bathrooms are built for women whose average height was then 5'2" to 5'4". When I'm cooking or cleaning up, I often get a backache from having to bend over for a long period of time, since the counter top is too low.

People still subscribe to newspapers?

Re: Zoe (#23)
Funny, I stated "I suspect the LW is probably married (i.e., the spouse didn't go with) ... ." FWIW, I thought the LW was in his or her 60s or early 70s, but then again ... didn't consider gender, as I didn't think THAT mattered in the first place.
The "hot chick" comment came from what people other than the LW might be thinking when they find they're sitting next to someone as the LW describes (someone who is clearly overweight) at the movies/theater/on an airplane, etc. Just speaking in general, not directly to the LW. Sorry if you misunderstood.

As has been pointed out BTL many times in the past, a good host or hostess' job is to make the guest feel comfortable. I can't see that reading the morning paper is such an egregious faux pas. Nor is it untoward on the husbands part to go out and buy a paper and coffee while his wife and her friend sleep. Would they even know he was gone? There is no reason why he should be uncomfortable while the gals sleep. I believe he should just stay home from the next trip and then everyone will be comfortable- unless his wife is more comfortable with him there to complain about.

Mike H said exactly what I was thinking on both LW1 & 2 but especially LW2. The first thing that came to my mind was that her mother was probably elderly and needed to be in an isle seat.

LW2- I'd rather sit next to a heavy person any day verses an unruly child... especially on a plane, at an event or in a restaurant and I am neither heavy nor skinny.

Re: EstherGreenwood (#29)

The thing about the venue the LW was at ... indeed, we don't know if it was a newer facility, one that had been renovated recently (i.e., had seats to accommodate larger people in general) ... or if it was a "classic" facility designed in the 50s – the 1850s.

Consider, too, that it costs thousands of dollars to renovate these days, even in the best of times.

The best that can be done is, unfortunately, to grin and bear it or switch with his/her granddaughter.

Penny (#30):

"On another note, the large woman chose her seat to inconvenience a stranger rather than her family by choosing the seat next to the LW."

The thing is, she may also have chosen her seat based on what was printed on her ticket ... and that it had little to do with her mother's comfort (although that's surely a possibility) and that there may have been few options for her to change. Perhaps it could be she thought she could get the best view of the stage?

So many possibilities. But I do doubt it was because she got to the theater, thought, "Hmmm, how can I inconvenience someone today? Oh, I know, I'll sit next to this fella and if he don't like it, too goddamn bad." Granted, I don't think she would have appreciated it if the LW spoke up and complained that her sitting next door and encroaching in his/her space made him/her physically uncomfortable, "because I have a right to enjoy the show, too ... ," but still.

Re: Bobaloo

Oh, I understood. You couldn't help but bring "hot chicks" into a discussion about a fat person taking up too space at a theatre.

@Bobaloo -- Don't you love it when you and trade places? I'm the one making up crazy stories! As I tried to point out, I was providing one POSSIBLE scenario, but I'm certainly not married to it. It is just as possible that the friend and/or the wife really has a hang-up about people reading the newspaper first. If the LW really was quiet as a mouse and wasn't rendering the paper unreadable by anyone else (again, entirely possible), then I would absolutely agree with everyone here who has suggested that the friend was in the wrong. She's the host. A good host tries to make his/her guests as comfortable and welcome as possible. And a good host, even if s/he DOES have some sort of bizarre proprietary issue with his/her newspaper, still seeks to accommodate his/her guest as best she can and not hold his/her own odd pet peeves against a guest who has no way of knowing about said pet peeve.

As for there being no evidence in the letter that the LW was ever discourteous or disrespectful...well, for that matter, there's no evidence that he was quiet as a mouse, either. Don't get me wrong, but OF COURSE the LW doesn't cop to having been discourteous or disrespectful. As is often the case with LWs, this is a LW who is already convinced he's right (note that he doesn't say, "was I wrong?" he says "is this crazy or what?"), and he's just looking for someone to say, "yup, you're right. Your wife and her friend are nuts." And let me say again -- that his wife and her friend are nuts is entirely possible. So, no, he doesn't say he was loud or disrespectful -- but some of his word choices and the tone of his letter make it very clear that he thinks the pair of them are ridiculous (and most of us don't really respect that which we find ridiculous).

Now, I want to say again: while I can understand that some people might feel proprietary about their newspaper and/or don't like to find it all "bent out of shape" I cannot relate to someone who couldn't put up with a less-than-pristine newspaper for three or four days. So, yes, if I went with my husband to visit one of his old friends, and I wound up waking up first and getting the paper and later learned that his friend is OCD about his newspaper, I'd have thought it was pretty ridiculous. And if my husband agreed with his friend that what I was doing was rude, I'd have thought he was being pretty ridiculous, too. But rather than continue with the behavior, I'd have sucked it up and read my book (I never travel without one) in bed until everyone else was up for the next whopping two days of the trip. Because just as a host is obligated to try to accommodate a guest, a guest isn't supposed to make it difficult for the host to do so, and upon learning about a particular quirk of the host, a guest might want to take that into consideration. The thing about courtesy and etiquette is that it only works when it goes both ways.

As an aside, to be honest, I give the LW props for not complaining about feeling left out of the conversation (which he probably often was -- and that would be rude of the wife and her friend, BTW).

I just get a bit "suspicious" of how reliable a narrator the LW is when it's VERY clear that the LW absolutely believes s/he is in the right, cannot fathom ANY way s/he could possibly be wrong and is obviously just looking for the Annies to back him/her up. I have pointed this out with other LWs in the past, as well.

But I would definitely agree that, should the wife wish to visit that particular friend again, she should either go without her husband or they should stay in a hotel. What is particularly odd to me is that the wife is now concerned about a repeat of the newspaper "rudeness" for this upcoming trip to a different set of friends. Either the wife must really and truly believe that reading the paper before the host is rude (as opposed to it just being a quirk of her friend's), or there is more to the story and he really IS loud when he wakes up and he really DOES leave the newspaper in a a nearly-unreadable state for the next person, or something like that. So, either the wife is a bit nuts (totally possible), or the LW isn't giving us the whole story (also totally possible). Other posters had already done a very good job of handing the first possibility, so I chose to toss out another one.

Bobaloo, The tickets were three in a row... Anyone of those three could have sat where they wanted to. Getting to the theater and thinking how she could inconvenient someone is just a silly thing to say and I did not say it. My point was she did inconvenient someone and it was done for the benefit of her family.

Re: Steve C #6
Actually, Steve, some of us still prefer the paper version to electronic. I do have a ton of Internet subscriptions to the ones for which I can't get a paper subscription where I live, but I will read the electronic version of the local ones only when I have no other choice. And it's not because I'm old and electronically-challengend. My first desk-top computer was a Commodore 64, which takes us back a bit. I've been working with computers ever since they've been available. But people are allowed to have preferences, and it has nothing to do with pining for the good old times.

re LW3 -
Of course. But I'm sure the woman was no more comfortable crammed in her little middle seat than you would have been, hence my reasoning that there must have been a reason why she subjected herself to that. It may be that she chose to make her mother comfortable rather than a perfect stranger. Mind you, a solution would have been for them to both use an aisle seat, one behind the other, but perhaps they got there too late for that to be possible. But you're right that the LW could have switched places with the child. Seems to me that both the LW and the woman she is complaining about were quite lacking in basic problem-solving skills.

@Jenna #10
Oh, I agree with you perfectly. I'm so sick of hearing about the "rights" of the poor, poor grossly obese. Well guess what all of you bleeding hearts out there, the reasonably shaped also have rights, namely not to have their bones crushed, and not to raise from a 5-hour trip black and blue with bruises because some entitled hippo doesn't give a damn about anybody, and people in charge actually agree with her or him.

And then, there is the matter of basic consideration for others, or glaring lack thereof. Some of things I've seen happen in a bus...

However, in this particular case, for the woman to take a middle seat can't have been very comfortable for her. I can only assume her mother needed the aisle seat even more. What I said in #2 and here above to Steve C.

#14
Same here. I agree with you, but not with THAT. I would be curious to know just how overblown and grossly heavy both Dorothy P and Toad Prince are. When there's that much venom dripping, it generally involves a great deal of projection - as had exhibited the Bloom Hilda incident.

@Zoe 17
Yeah, except that, only being able to read the paper and not her mind, he couldn't guess that their host would have a weird quirk about her paper (especially since she bitchily chose to pout instead of speaking up), nor that his wife would actually side with her. As Jenny pointed out, being a good hostess would have demanded that she not be in such a snit. This was unreasonable on both their parts, especially since the idiotic wife is now getting started on him about another trip, and expecting to restrict him even further as if was an errant 8 year-old boy being lectured. Good flamin' grief, does he have to ask permission to use the can too? Jenny is right. He should stay home next time and go out with the boys.

@Kitty #19
The Webster says, "A soft food made by boiling meal of grains or legumes in milk or water." So I suppose technically, dahl would also be porrige, except that it is not sweet.

Pesonally, I don't mind cream of wheat or oatmeal, especially on a cold winter morning, but I'll sweeten it with brown sugar or maple and put in some dried fruit, like raisins or craisins, possibly even some corn flakes or rice crispies to add crunch. And I love dahl!

Lisa, I hope you will also automatically question the validity of female LWs who criticize their husbands.

I've made note to note this in the coming weeks.

Re: Lise B

"Yeah, except that, only being able to read the paper and not her mind, he couldn't guess that their host would have a weird quirk about her paper (especially since she bitchily chose to pout instead of speaking up)"

Yes, that's why I asked if he continued to take the paper after his wife said it was rude (possibly because her friend told her it was bothering her). It wasn't clear from the way the LW told the story. If he kept doing it, I would be less sympathetic, because people are allowed to have their quirks.

Additionally, which I think it's utterly silly to get upset over someone reading your newspaper first, he still should have asked.

But then, I do ask for permission to use the washroom (the first time) when I'm in someone else's home. Not because any part of me expects them to say no, but because I believe it's polite and it gives them the opportunity to tell me where it is and give me any special instructions (towels are in the cupboard, extra tp under the sink, use the green dispenser it has soap and not hand lotion... whatever).

To be clear: I think that his wife and her friend are being unreasonable, and childish to not simply speak up when he asked what was bothering her. However, he is the one writing in and he is the one who took the newspaper which caused all this rightly or not.

Re: Zoe (#37)

Whatever.

The point is when you're at the movies, theater, school play, on an airplane, you're going to always sit next to someone you'd rather not. The LW just wanted to sit next to someone else – anyone else – and simply not that woman. Case closed.

And FWIW, the LW did not refer to the woman as "fat" – yes, he/she did write that they wondered if this woman would live long enough to see her daughter to adulthood, which in my mind I guess could mean anything from simply being overweight but having other visible clues of being in poor health to morbidly obese. Who cares anyway?

Re: Penny (#39)

"The tickets were three in a row... Anyone of those three could have sat where they wanted to."

Yeah, I'd HOPE they'd interpret things that way. Thing is, who knows how she'd – and really, it's beside the point now – what the large woman

Sorry, comment cut off in my #43 ... I hit the post button too early. My bad. So, finishing my response to Penny (#39)

"The tickets were three in a row... Anyone of those three could have sat where they wanted to."

Yeah, I'd HOPE they'd interpret things that way. Thing is, who knows how she'd – and really, it's beside the point now – what the large woman might have been thinking and the possibility that she felt she had to sit in that specific spot.

Me? I'd do it just like you said – you have several tickets in a row, there's flex seating. Few venues I know of are that hard-assed to demand that you sit there or else heave-ho, out the door without a refund.

Zoe: "To be clear: I think that his wife and her friend are being unreasonable, and childish to not simply speak up when he asked what was bothering her. However, he is the one writing in and he is the one who took the newspaper which caused all this rightly or not."

And thank you as well for proving my point. HE caused it all. Yep. It's not the irritable female host or the plainly nagging wife that are to blame.

So I guess you'd also blame a rape victim for wearing a short skirt or possibly flirting with some man?

Brief, incidental physical contact is one thing. A person rubbing up against me for 2 hours, much less invading my space with their excess fat is simply not acceptable. The theater would simply have to accomodate me by moving her or us. I would be polite and let the management handle it, but no way am I allowing that woman to overflow onto me.

Re: PB

I think you got yourself a bit confused, there. As the man-hater that I am, I don't blame rape victims. Unless they are men. Then of course it's their fault.

Re: Bobaloo

"The point is when you're at the movies, theater, school play, on an airplane, you're going to always sit next to someone you'd rather not."

THAT is your point? I travel frequently, go to movies, etc. More often than not I sit beside a normal person whom I have no issue sitting beside. Might not be a "hot chick" but usually I have no complained.

"And FWIW, the LW did not refer to the woman as "fat"'

Haha, did you not read the letter or what? She made several references to the woman's large size (aka FATNESS):

"The woman was rather large,"
"She was practically sitting on top of the chair arms due to her size"
"I'm sure her knee problems are due to her size."

People who are "simply overweight" don't have to sit on chair arms or have other people saying that their knee problems are due to their size.

LW1: Considering all the letters that are received from hostesses about lazy, mooching house guests, I was unprepared to understand where this whackadoodle friend of your wifes' is coming from. Yeah, I said "whackadoodle".

Normally the BTL saves Whackadoodle for the truly offensive waste of space, but I'm using this to describe a ridiculous waste of space. Which is NOT you, Letter writer, you're cool with me. You are not jealous of the late night conversations or the ladies sleeping in. Which is great.

The waste of space is the hostess who could not abide her paper being read before her and then could not say anything to you about it. The whole business of being in a snit and when asked about being in a snit, saying everything is fine, ISN"T FINE. That's passive aggressive right there.

I think what it comes down to is that this hostess will only be happy when you do what she wants without her having to tell you. Which will be never because you aren't a mindreader.

I love Datura's advice, get a tablet and take it with you. Hopefully your hosts won't get all hinky if you have to plug into their wifi.

Come down to the kitchen naked and proceed to read your paper in the buff and maybe they won't comment on your reading their paper. Up to you.

Wow, round up all the fatties and force them to reduce... kind of mind-boggling. Would that concentration camp be right next to the one for those who don't write thank-you notes?

@ Penny

Personally when it comes to family, I would most certainly put their comfort ahead of a perfect stranger. Sorry, call me selfish. In my mind, the woman probably figured it would be easier to get her elderly mother out of the aisle quickest and most easily by seating her on the aisle. It makes perfect sense to me.

In reading a lot of the comments regarding LW2 I can't help but think there are an awful lot of self-entitled people out there who have a chip on their shoulder and think they're owed fairness. Sorry, but life isn't fair. Sure, I'm irritated with morbidly obese people too sometimes and I fully agree that they should have to pay for two seats if one cannot contain them adequately. I sat next to an extremely large man (who also smelled awful by the way) who squished me up against the window. Not only did I feel completely violated, but it was impossible to lower my tray, pull out my laptop or even read. The stewardess couldn't move me to another seat because the flight was full. Did I throw a tantrum and demand a refund? No. From my perspective, I suffered for a couple of hours and then returned to my comfortable, fit life while this man likely suffers incessantly.

Bobaloo, " The woman was rather large, but instead of taking the aisle seat, she gave that to her mother and sat next to me. She was practically sitting on top of the chair arms due to her size and was taking up part of my space." Obliviously the woman was 'fat'. The LW was just to polite to use that word. You are again making it quite clear that your opinion is the only correct one, "case closed"!!! No one, except you perhaps, would think that the three tickets for three people would require them to sit in specific seats within those three. What, an usher would stand there and monitor their seating arrangement not knowing whose ticket was whose? I can't believe you know of even one venue that would even think to do that. "The LW just wanted to sit next to someone else and simply not THAT woman?" The reason for that was the MAIN point of the letter...the woman was taking up more than her share of the seating! Your fixation on "HOT CHICKS" is disgustingly. Get over it.

Re: Zoe


"I travel frequently, go to movies, etc. More often than not I sit beside a normal person whom I have no issue sitting beside. Might not be a "hot chick" but usually I have no complained. "

Funny thing is ... neither have I.

I've sat next to thousands of people in my life – from young women to elderly men, and everyone in between. Rarely, if ever have I had an issue, just like you. Let's just leave things at that.

Comments regarding your interpretation of her size (i.e., "'The woman was rather large," "She was practically sitting on top of the chair arms due to her size" and "I'm sure her knee problems are due to her size")

Ah – but she did not specifically use the three letter f-word (i.e. "FAT"). Guess it's left to our imagination what exactly "large" meant in the LW's mind.

Unfortunately I'm the kind of passenger that the morbidly obese might find offensive.

I was on a short flight, one hour from take-off to landing. A large woman sat in the seat next to me and she spilled onto my seat so I suggested raising the armrest so she would be more comfortable. She was overweight and also a big boned gal to begin with, but she was nicely dressed in a soft sweater and self-assured.

Here is how her letter to the Annies might read:

Dear Annie's Mailbox,

I was recently on a short flight on a small commuter jet and being that I am a larger passenger, I was nervous about fitting in the seat. I come from a farming family and all of us are over 6 ft tall and have generous proportions. I have excellent hygiene and take care to wear clothing that is attractive and fits properly. On flights, which I must take for my job, I have encountered rude comments, stares and people who ask to be moved when I become their seat mate.

Which makes my letter all the more confusing. The woman I was seated next to was pleasant and welcoming when I sat down and immediately offered to raise the armrest so that I would be more comfortable. That has never happened before. I am not a chatty person on flights, preferring to read or listen to headphones. My seat mate seemed tired and the silence was comfortable, so I relaxed for the flight.

I did not know what to do when the woman seated next to me fell asleep on me! First she snored a little and was leaning toward the window. Then there was some turbulence and she was bounced onto my arm. She opened her eyes, looked around with bleary eyes, and then put her head back on my upper arm and fell asleep again! She stayed that way for the rest of the flight. She even slept through the landing. She even drooled a little on me.

She avoided eye contact with me and seemed embarrassed about waking up snuggled up next to me. "I never sleep on flights" she mumbled along with an apologetic ramble about her lack of sleep the night before.

During the flight, which was bumpy, the beverage service was suspended and I was unsure about asking a flight attendant to wake her up. I've never had someone do this before, it was a huge surprise. If this happens again, how might I handle this?

Signed, NOT a pillow

Okay folks. I fell asleep on a seat mate. That was me. I drool during naps. I don't know why. Hope this isn't TMI.

Re: Chris, My biggest objection to your post was calling the mother elderly. It was stated that the daughter was in her 30's most likely making the mother in her 60's. Hold on a second, I resemble that remark!

I've got a suggestion for everyone, then, who wants to harp about this woman taking up his/her share of the seating ...

Petition the courts and demand that larger seats be drawn up to accommodate "larger" people. Just be prepared to pay more.

I know I'm gonna catch flack for even mentioning Chris' name, but Chris has EXACTLY it right today – everything in #50 that he states makes perfect sense to me today. Really.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this was not so much about taking up more than a reasonable share of her space ... but just discomfort about being near her in general. Anyone else could mean my next door neighbor (who is a father of three, by the way) or one of my co-workers (which include several married women in their 40s and 50s (including one who is going through chemo, a bachelor and a divorced man).

Sigh. Just put up with the woman and be done with it. Geez!

And yes, if it does come to that, either require they pay for two seats or get off the damn flight and book the next one at whatever cost. Same for the theater ... go to the balcony where nobody sits and you'd have all the room to yourself.

Re: Bobaloo

Yes that is funny because in your last post you said "The point is when you're at the movies, theater, school play, on an airplane, you're going to ALWAYS sit next to someone you'd rather not."

Are you really trying to say that a woman described as "rather large" with knee problems speculated to be caused by her size, and having to place her bulk upon the arm rests because the seat itself isn't big enough, could be colloquially described as anything but "fat"?

Re: Chelle

That is too funny! My neighbour on a bus (from Ottawa to Toronto) once told me I fell asleep on his arm but I'm pretty sure he was lying because he was a gross old guy and I sleep pretty lightly when I'm traveling.

@Zoe, is it wrong of me to call you a hot chick? I just felt like we haven't been talking enough about hot chicks lately.

Re: Dorothy P
How about we round up all the stupid, nasty and mean people and send them to a farm somewhere and FORCE them to be tolerant, kind and compassionate?

Re: Zoe (#55)

"Are you really trying to say that a woman described as "rather large" with knee problems speculated to be caused by her size, and having to place her bulk upon the arm rests because the seat itself isn't big enough, could be colloquially described as anything but 'fat'?"

I don't know about that, but I do know that there are just times you grin and bear it ... and hope next time you don't have to sit next to someone who is "large." (Again, it could mean many things.) Moral: Keep your thoughts to yourself. If you're that uncomfortable, complain to the manager.

Re: Mike H

Of course, you may call me a hot chick!

Re: Bobaloo

Okay, tell me the many things other than "fat" that "rather large, can't fit in her seat and was practically seated on the arm rests" could mean. I shall hold my breath while I wait. And what does this have to do with grinning and bearing it?

Re: Zoe

Heavy-set, maybe? Or just simply "big"?

You may exhale now – I don't want you dying on us now.

And BTW – "fat" also means a number of things. That may not be where it's at with this woman, though. I've known "fat" people who fit within the confines of their auditorium seat and STILL had butt room left over. And besides, the only one I'd dare call fat is a guy who's black and wears a red sweater over a white shirt and has a bunch of friends from the ghetto and watches a cartoon called the "Green Hornet."

"Hey, hey hey!"

"And what does this have to do with grinning and bearing it?"

From the Cosby files:

"Because sometimes in life, when you deal with someone you don't find pleasant, you deal with an unwanted task ... that's what you have to do. Grit your teeth, focus and/or try to have a good time and then get over it. In other words, what Chris was saying in his posts today."

Re: Kay (#46)

While I agree you should not have to put up with that kind of contact for two hours at a time, the right way would be to call the theater manager and have them re-seat you or your neighbor if you're THAT uncomfortable.

I'd just feel very uncomfortable with confronting her directly ... especially if she's well aware of her size and associated health problems. And who knows if someone that may be with her (whether you know it or not) would take offense to it and really show their disapproval. After all, they may have just gotten done golfing today and their Ford F-150 Platinum truck is parked right outside.

Re: Zoe #42
It is also not clear exactly when the wife let it be known that the newspaper was the reason the girly-buddy had her panties in a bunch. For all we know, she only told him when they got back home, or in the car on the way there. Considering that the girly-buddy couldn't even find the gumption to tell him what was bothering her, I think this is the more liklely scenario. Talk about passive-aggressive! These two females seem to be very good about pouting and sulking, but not about telling it like it is when they should. What a fine pair of prissy little c****...

@Chelle #53
LOL!

@Bobaloo #55
"Petition the courts and demand that larger seats be drawn up to accommodate "larger" people. Just be prepared to pay more."
We're gonna pay more anyway. Might as well get something for it.

"The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this was not so much about taking up more than a reasonable share of her space ... but just discomfort about being near her in general. "
No, no NO, Bobaloo, this is you going on a wild tangent again. Stop it, SNAP OUT OF IT, c'mon, c'mon now, (snapping fingers under your nose) back to reality, focus!

Re: WinehouseFan #58
How about we round up all the stupid, nasty and mean people and send them to a farm somewhere so they can snipe at each other? Hee hee.

LW1 - Annies, you're on the right track with this answer, but you forgot to mention the basic premise that it is rude, and sometimes even criminal, to use or borrow something belonging to anyone else without asking. Even something as simple as a newspaper. I had a similar experience where a guy trying to sell car cleaner came up and sprayed my car without asking me if it was OK first. Yes, the cleaner did a great job, and I might have even bought some. But the fact that he didn't ask me first whether it was ok to spray my car turned me off, and I let him know that he would probably do better at selling if he remembered to ask before spraying for future clients.

LW2 - Sometimes ushers are happy to acommodate larger people with different seats in disabled areas, especially in Broadway theaters. Before my wife's reduction surgery, we were given this option at a Las Vegas show, and our new seats had better views. You could ask the usher to offer this option to the people next to you. But if they refuse to move, I agree there's not much else you can do.

LW3 - Lucky you. I tried the same "washing down" trick as a kid, but was berated for it, and my parents refused to give me any additional liquid of any kind, even water, if I ran out of drink before I ran out of veggie, which was usually the case. I was also scolded for "swallowing whole", so many meals were ordeals for me. As a result, there are not too many vegetables that I actually enjoy eating as an adult, although I try to get a certain amount into my system anyway purely for health reasons.

Re: Bobaloo

"Heavy-set, maybe? Or just simply "big"?" -- So, fat. I'm sorry but those are just things that fat people call themselves when they don't want to admit they are fat. Those of us somewhere in the middle would never garner the kind of frustration and complaint such as LW2's, because we are still capable of fitting in a normal chair. I like to call myself "voluptuous" and have a big butt, but I fit in chairs. Compared with everyone today I would be described as average but if someone called me fat I couldn't really complain about it. Ask my tummy - I can draw a face on it and make it talk to you with some effort, if you like.

And yes I understand the point of "grinning and bearing it" (which is exactly what the LW should do in this case) BUT it has little to do with whether the woman in question could be described as fat.

Re: Lise B

Probably yes he didn't find out till afterward, but the way he wrote it ("my wife told me X and after a few days of this...") made me wonder. This is why husbands shouldn't tag along with high school girl friends get together. Bad scene! Hah.

Re: Paul W

Your car story reminds me of a time I was supposed to sell a few roosters to a gentleman. He showed up a bit early (about 10 min before I got home) and when he was talking to me he mentioned that he had been inside the coop. Which is a secure-looking shed (not something you can see the chickens through a half-door) in my backyard (not at all visible from any part of the front of the house). No harm was meant but it was very odd indeed, and I was too taken aback to say anything.

LW2 -- I have refrained from chiming in on LW2 primarily because the LW really didn't have a question and wasn't really looking for advice. She (I'm assuming it's a woman, merely because the majority of the Annies' readers and LWs are female) says very clearly in her first sentence that she needed to vent. That is really all this letter is -- a rant. Yes, she tacks on a question at the end, but much like LW1, it's pretty clear she believes she knows the answer. She doesn't ask "How should I have handled this?" Or "is there a tactful way of dealing with this?" Or even "what recourse does a person have in such a situation?" She asks, "Don't you think she should have taken the aisle seat?" She may as well have asked, "aren't I right that she should have taken the aisle seat?" Or even, "aren't I right to be upset about how uncomfortable I was?"

I am petite and always have been. When I was a kid, if someone had to sit in the middle (be it on a bus, airplane, theater, wherever), I was the one who was made to sit there, because I was almost always the smallest one there. Usually, because I was that small, it wasn't really a big deal -- but it got old always being expected to be the one to accommodate everyone else simply because I am small. As an adult, I frequently OFFER to take the middle seat in similar situations because I know that although it means I won't be in as comfortable or convenient a seat, I do understand that I will be far less uncomfortable than my 6'6 co-worker or my 5'11 (and overweight) husband, for example. It still gets old, but because I'm an adult, I've learned that sometimes we should do the right thing by other people, whether it's "fair" or not. Had I been in that theatre, I wouldn't have been happy having that woman oozing into my personal space, but I would have just dealt with it because, well, it is what it is.

I don't blame the LW for being annoyed. I was on a flight once where the woman who sat next to me had hips so wide that in order for her to get into the seat, she had to first turn sideways to get into the seat, and then slowly wedge herself around so that she would be sitting forward -- by which point she was taking up at least 1/3 of my seat. It was a three-hour flight. Extremely unpleasant. Know what I did? I sucked it up. I wasn't happy about it it, but I felt no need to write to an advice columnist to vent.

@Zoe -- growing up, I considered Cream of Wheat to be a special treat, and I particularly liked referring to it as porridge because of the whole Goldie Locks thing. On the other hand, I did NOT like oatmeal, and if my mother tried to fool me by calling it porridge, I told that was NOT porridge. Today, I like both of them but rarely bother to make either of them. Go figure.

@Lise #40 - well we'll have to disagree on that, because my theory is that if you were brought up originally reading digitally, then that would be your preference. But you are basically agreeing with me on the major point anyway - since you have your digital subscriptions, therefore, in the LW's place, you would have had no need to go get your host's paper in the first place (all this is assuming there is internet available).

@Bobaloo #20 - I'm just totally copying my own post above, but again, you say "NOTHING like reading all about in in good ol' black and white", I realize it's personal preference, yet I couldn't disagree more, and I read print newspapers for (mumble mumble) decades before reading digitally. I'm sure that today's kids, who will grow up reading digitally, if they are presented with a print newspaper when they're 35 will be far more disconcerted than anyone today going from print to digital. I do have to concede your point about digital newspapers being not as good as print newspapers (yet), but that has nothing to do with the medium. But, regardless of "preference", you have to concede that reading the newspaper digitally would obviously be better than everyone fighting over who gets to touch the print version first.

OOPS! I just realized I actually suggested that I didn't agree with a woman in my comment at #67. Sorry, I should have assumed the LW was a man in order to keep up my man-hater cred -- don't know what I was thinking. It's just that the vast majority of the LWs are women, so I almost always automatically assume the LW is a woman unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. And yet, sometimes I disagree with them, even when they're female. Much like those numerous other times when I have suggested the LW might not be a reliable narrator, like the one from a few days ago that was written by -- GASP! -- a woman complaining about -- GASP! -- another woman (her ex-DIL). I guess in that case, I had no choice but to choose one woman over the other, so hopefully all of my man-hating sisters will forgive me for that lapse.

@Lisa, do you think I could become an honorary member of the She-Woman Man-Haters Club? I am gay, after all, that's got to count for something, right? And frankly, I just don't feel like I've been blaming men enough lately.

@Zoe, you're a hot chick!

Re: Lise Brouillette (#55)

"We're gonna pay more anyway. Might as well get something for it."

Yeah, like a fatter wallet for the owner of the theater. Bet none of it goes into upgrades or upkeep. (And yes, I do realize I used the word "fat" – albeit for an inanimate object).

Response to my "The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this was not so much about taking up more than a reasonable share of her space ... but just discomfort about being near her in general." with "No, no NO, Bobaloo, this is you going on a wild tangent again. Stop it, SNAP OUT OF IT, c'mon, c'mon now, (snapping fingers under your nose) back to reality, focus!"

Well if the LW can't have a good time at the theater and has to sit next to someone they'd prefer not to – no matter what the reason (in this case, someone who is large and taking up plenty of space, to put it politely) – then it's time for them to go home or in the very least exchange tickets. Simple as that. And that's no wild tangent but a blunt suggestion.

And NO, ZOE, I WILL NOT USE THE WORD FAT TO DESCRIBE THIS WOMAN!!!! Gee, you come off on me for wild suggestions – we DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THIS WOMAN is large because of her own doing or if it's a medical condition or even hereditary. And what does that have to do with anything, anyway?

I'm trying to be reasonable and suggest alternatives:

• Go home and get over yourself and realize that in life we don't always get to sit next to someone we want to. (Exactly what that means.)
• Get your seat exchanged (preferably in the little used balcony area, far enough away where the performers look like ants).
• Exchange your tickets for tomorrow's performance. (Perhaps the same woman and her family won't be there tomorrow).

What more can I say until I'm blue in the dog-gone face?

Re: Paul W
"Even criminal", for a newspaper? Aw come on, la, let's not get carried away. I think the Bobaloo Hyperbolic BTL flu is starting to catch. If there a doctor in the audience?

@Zoe #66
"he mentioned that he had been inside the coop."
And flew it soon after? ;-D

Re: Bobaloo
Bobaloo, the wild tangent was, with the sentence " not so much about taking up more than a reasonable share of her space ...but just discomfort about being near her in general." the suggestion that this had nothing to do with being crushed, but all to do with her being fat-o-phobic.

And btw, even if someone is grossly obese through no fault of their own because it's medical/glandular/hormonal or whatever, they're still fat!

Don't go blue in the dog-gone face, you'll shoot your blood to the dogs... Just take a deep breath (try not to breathe fire) and then go back and read whatever we wrote more calmly. Wear a helmet if you're gonna jump to the ceiling. ;-D

Re: Lise Brouillette (#74)

Well, I'll agree there – it IS stretching it to call someone a criminal for reading their newspaper while you're a guest at their home without asking. Rude is the more appropriate word there to describe what was happening in LW1's letter. (And yes, my suggestion to go buy your own at the corner store still applies.)

And yes, it's another completely different thing if you're a neighbor and take someone's paper with no intention of letting him have it. Not the case here, though.

And FWIW, I had pictured in my mind that the other woman's size was indeed "medical/glandular/hormonal" ... and sad to say, it was affecting how she walked or even sat for the entirety of the show (several hours). I can easily see her being literally exhausted just by sitting there, trying to get a little enjoyment out of what may well be a rare outing.

The more I think about it, she has my sympathy. (Another reason I'm uneasy at calling her "fat" – it just seems so mean. Sorry.)

I wonder if the problem with the wife's friend in LW1 really had anything at all to do with a newspaper or if that's just his wife being control freaky and wanting him to believe that. While the hostess most likely invited them, four days is a looong time to have someone in your house. I think it was Anne Landers who said that houseguests, like fish, go bad after three days. If she was really 'in a snit', maybe she was just feeling like it was time for the visit to be over. Call me anti-social, but I can't handle anyone but immediate family crashing in my house for more than a night or two.

No excuses either way, of course. If you have a problem with what one of your guests is doing, you should address it instead of acting like a bug died up somewhere.

Of course, I think 90% of the problems presented in these advice columns could be solved if people just communicated with each other a little bit.

"Hey, Jane! Is it OK if I bring your newspaper in and read it? I will try to fold it up afterward."

"Well, actually, I kind pay a lot for the subscription and enjoy opening it up in the morning. Could you leave it for me, please?"

"Sure. I hope it's cool if I go down to the coffee shop and grab my own before breakfast. Do you ladies want anything while i'm there?"

"That's cool with me, Fred. That place is great. They have the best scones!"

Problem solved.

@ Penny Re: #54

Oh gosh! I didn't think of that when I posted about the "elderly" mother. Honey, I agree wholeheartedly that 50 is the new 30! You rock on girl! You're fabulous!

@Bobaloo
"Well, I'll agree there – it IS stretching it to call someone a criminal for reading their newspaper while you're a guest at their home without asking."
I don't mean to be the grammar police, but that one got me laughing ... I think you meant to say, "... it IS stretching it to call someone a criminal for reading their newspaper without asking while you're a guest at their home." You can't be a "guest" and be in their home without asking, can you? That would make you a trespasser at the very least :)

Re: Bobaloo
I realise you're trying to avoid being hurtful, but a woman who is big enough to invade the neighbour's seat is not just heavy-set or large, she's fat. Very fat, at that.

But for you to suggest that the LW doesn't REALLY mind being crushed in her seat, but actually really has a problem with fat people, no. There is zero indication of that. This is just one of your wild speculations.

@Datura #77
"Problem solved."
Not for the bitchy wife. She has a problem with that too.

@Mike H -- you can only join the She-Woman Man-Haters Club if I, too, can be a hot chick, even though I am currently as big as a whale (34 weeks pregnant -- I'm pretty sure I stopped "glowing" but kept right on "growing" a good 20 weeks ago).

Re: Bobaloo

Who cares why she's fat? A bottle blonde is still a blonde while her hair is dyed blonde. I'm not vilifying her for it, but you can't pretty it up and say she's super model thin because clearly, by all indications, and unless the lw is insane, she is fat. Chubby, heavy, obese, morbidly obese - it's all a variation on the same thing: FAT. You don't have to call her fat if you don't want to, but don't deny that she is.

It is relevant in that if she's NOT fat, then the lw is nuts for describing her as rather large and too big to fit in her own seat. That's the crux of the issue, isn't it? Having your space invaded by someone because they are too big? Or too smelly, too noisy, whatever. Ohh but what if he's smelly because of a medical problem??? Poor angel. He's still smelly though!

Your alternatives are fine, when did I suggest anything else that the lw should do? You can argue it all you want, but you'll be smurf blue by the end because that's not what I'm arguing with you. I'm arguing your contention that the woman is question could not be described as fat.

Fat is just a descriptive word. Most fat people I know would describe themselves that way. So don't stick your own self esteem issues all over THEM.

@Lisa, absolutely, you are definitely a hot chick! Woohoo, I'm in the club!

@Kitty #31
You're right. Most older kitchens and bathrooms were built for someone more my size - I'm a shrimp at 5'2". People have generally become taller (and fatter) since the 50s and public venue and transportation design needs to take that into account. Whether you are the encroacher or the encroachee, you deserve to have a seat that will accommodate you as well as allow you to breathe and use the armrest. When I find myself crammed into a seat on a plane and don't have enough leg room I can't imagine what more average sized folks must be going through. My husband was 6'2" and always had to sit in an aisle seat and was always uncomfortable and he wasn't even that tall. My biggest problem is when I sit on a tall bench with my legs hanging off and not touching the ground and then find myself swinging them back and forth like a 5-year-old!

@Bobaloo #36
I'm not talking about retrofitting an entire theater - just some rows or seats to accommodate those who won't fit into the standard seats. A size and weight range should be listed for standard seats when one buys a ticket and those who can't fit without taking up part of the neighboring seats should be required to reserve one of the larger seats. I do not think the larger seats in entertainment venues should cost any more than standard seats. This should be along the lines of of other types of accessibility accommodations. I know having to identify yourself as needing a non-standard seat would be mortifying to some people in my opinion, hurt feelings do not outweigh (so to speak) the rights of the other seat-holders. Those who need a larger seat and do not reserve one should be asked to leave. BTW, I have no problem with the word "fat" if it's used in a descriptive manner and not lobbed as a catch all sexist insult.

Re: EstherGreenwood
"People have generally become taller (and fatter) since the 50s "
Actually, people have been getting steadily taller and bigger for centuries, even as the expectation of life has been increasing. I remember seein an suit of armour that had belonged to the lord of the castle somewhere in a French castle. Last time I would have fitted in that, I think I was 8. Similarly, I remember seeing a wedding dress dating back to the 19th century in some antique shop. By today's standards, it would have fitted a ten year-old child. The average height for soldiers in the Napoleon army was 5'2''.

But I think you're right that human growth has taken a quantum leap since the late 40's - credit the giant advances in health care, namely child and pregnant women care, and in nutrition. Who knew about vitamins, minimum vital calories and balanced diet in the forties?

Re: Zoe (#82)

Most overweight people would call themselves "fat"? What a laugh! I don't know one mentally challenged person who would dare call himself or herself "retarded" with pride or full of esteem.

Let's just agree that the alternatives I suggested -- starting with asking to be moved to different seats, if available -- were fine and leave it at that. I think we agree on those.

Is it too late to jump in and give Bobaloo a hard time for trying to pretend that someone so big that they slosh over their theatre seat isn't "fat"? They are fat, bobaloo. That's the word you're trying to avoid. But this is the part I had to "weigh" in on:
"Petition the courts and demand that larger seats be drawn up to accommodate "larger" people. Just be prepared to pay more."
Really? On your planet, the "courts" decide how big theatre seats should be? This must be a sign of the never-ending dependence on government to fix everything. Now it's theatre seats for fat people. And in a Broadway theatre, you cannot just get up and opt to "sit in the balcony." Even if they had a balcony, those seats are nearly as expensive as those below and you can't just move around to suit yourself.
And dammit, Mike, I USED to be a hot chick! Maybe I should start referring to myself as a "hot toddie"

Re: Bobaloo

Plenty of people call themselves fat with pride! Ever heard of fat pride? BBWs etc? Sure, plenty don't want to be fat, but plenty more are pleased with themselves.

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the word "fat" as purely descriptive. Like the word "blond" "skinny" or "boisterous". How do the fat people YOU know refer to themselves? Husky? Big boned? Reubanesque? Lolllll... Is that how you refer to yourself? Nah, most people I know acknowledge themselves as being fat. They might not wear it on a name tag or introduce themselves as such, but they know it.

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#87)

Yes, Maggie, it IS too late. You've had your say -- go back to bed.

But not before I comment on this statement:

"Really? On your planet, the "courts" decide how big theatre seats should be? This must be a sign of the never-ending dependence on government to fix everything."

At least I'll agree with the "never-ending dependence on government to fix everything" comment. Sad to say on my planet -- and it's the same as yours -- it's FAR too common. Actually, thinking about it, I wasn't THAT serious about it ... but it's not to say that there isn't someone out there. Maybe the marketplace will demand it, however.

And OF COURSE I am well aware that you can't just get up and move around at an expensive theater venue. (Maybe at a high school play or small-town dinner theater, where the seating rules aren't so rigid.)

So honestly, what do YOU think? What do YOU think the LW's problem is? Is it her siZe and that she's taking up too much room for the LW to sit comfortably in his/her seat? Something else? What's your suggestion -- tell him to grin and bear it, go home, see if he can get his seat switched? Can he move within his row of seats with his party? What?

Re: Zoe (#88)

Of course there's nothing wrong with having self esteem and being proud of who you are. But most people I know don't walk around referring to themselves by any girth-type descriptive when asked. They might know if they have a weight problem, for instance ... but it's like you said, " They might not wear it on a name tag or introduce themselves as such, but they know it."

Re: Maggie Lawrence
I think I'll start referring to myself as a "hot young senior".

Bobaloo, I think the problem here is that you have difficulty separating political correctness from hard fact. In your eagerness to show consideration for people's feelings and avoid any name-calling, you actually swing to the other extreme point where reality is denied, the very same reality that would trigger the name-calling in the first place.

Calling someone a fat slob is justifiably unacceptable, because it is a verbal attack of a personal nature, about a physical attribute that may be none of the person's fault. Stating that a person spilling into the next theatre /bus /plane seat is fat, is a neutral statement of fact - that person wouldn't be spilling if s/he weren't fat.

Re: Bobaloo
"Yes, Maggie, it IS too late. You've had your say -- go back to bed. But not before I comment on this statement:"
Tsk, tsk, Bobaloo, you can't have it both ways! ;-D

All this furore when all the LW wanted to know is if the huge lady should have taken the aisle seat... ;-D

Lise, don't you mean "fat lady"? :)

Re: Soozan
Since there is no singing involved, no, I didn't. ;-D

Re: Lise Brouillette (#90)

And that, my friend, may indeed be the problem.

Look, I never had a problem with the guy feeling like he's literally being squeezed out of his own seat to accommodate this other theater patron. I get that. I've honestly felt that way too -- boxed in and cornered by someone who, because of their sheer size takes up more room than one seat allows, with few options to move.

I think the word "fat" is relative. And I get that at least you are trying to use it in a neutral, objective sense -- but it still comes off as mean for some reason. And like I said, I'm overweight, but I would surely NEVER call myself "fat."

To answer the LW's original question of her taking the aisle seat, however: No. She's got the right to take the seat that makes HER the most comfortable and is most convenient for members of her entourage. I've outlined his options ad nauseum.

Re: Bobaloo

"I think the word "fat" is relative."

It's really not, though. I mean, sure, there is some grey area between normal weight and not-unhealthy overweight, but it's a pretty small margin. It's a pretty fair bet that if you think you're overweight, people could describe you as "fat". Not in a sense that people will point at you, calling your fattie, and laugh (if they are in the US, they are probably fat too, after all). But like if someone had to describe you, they might use that word. Or heavyset, chubby, overweight, whatever. It's all the same thing. YOU have some hangups about the word "fat", but lots don't.

This reminds of a discussion I had BTL a few months ago over the word "shallow". Something was described as shallow (I think it had to do with a man not liking a woman's accent or something) and it was hard to convince whomever I was talking to that while dumping someone over an accent was a shallow thing to do, it doesn't mean the person is shallow or that it's even insulting. It's just describing that it's not a "deep" reason to dump someone.

Words are generally only hurtful if you decide they are. I am excluding the N-word, and a few others (like "fag") that were always only ever meant to be hurtful and when people use them now and say "it's just a word", they are testing the person they are saying it to. But "fat" is just descriptive, especially these days when everyone is that.

Re: Bobaloo
I have seen floozies on telly insist that if you're 5 pounds over the chart, you're obese. Which is not only fat-o-phobia, but arrant stupidity.

But we're not talking about people too big to fit in a normal seat here. Anyone oversised enough to spill into the adjoining seats won't be all muscle even if they were 7 feet tall - they're FAT. No use dancing around this.

And keep one thing in mind: people who keep calling a problem by another name do nothing to fix it.