Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW2, is your mother attending West Point?

Service academy cadets are expected to observe an honor code which bans cheating. That's because an officer who cuts corners and breaks rules might someday endanger troops under his command and compromise our national security. But if your mother decides to look up answers when she's stumped by a crossword puzzle clue, WHOM IS SHE CHEATING, and why does it concern you? Could it be that even without reference books, she's a better puzzle solver than you, and you're jealous?

You seriously need to grow up and find a new pastime that will keep you away from your puzzle books and away from your mother's house. A week after the Boston bombings, you're unlikely to find much sympathy BTL for your "problem."

LW1: I think it is important to ensure that your granddaughter is at a healthy weight for her age; however, her parents, along with you and her other grandparents, should be the ones to ensure that she eats a healthy, balanced diet and gets an appropriate amount of exercise. The child should not be obsessing over her weight.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the first letter on 21 October 2012, which had a full column of responses on 15 December 2012 and was also discussed on 5 January 2013.

The response column generated a spin off series - "Feeling the Void in Indiana", which had columns on 30 January, 15 February, 7 & 13 March and 16 April 2013.

LW1 - A healthy four-year-old should not be concerned about her weight, and her mother putting so much emphasis on it to her could lead to low self-esteem and possible eating disorders in the future. Her father should be encouraged to discuss this with his ex and to have Jill's pediatrician emphasize this to the mother when she takes her in for a checkup. The LW should continue to provide healthy, well-balanced meals for Jill when she's in her care and continue to praise her and make her feel loved, but she should stay away from any altercations with Jill's mother. That's up to her son.
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LW2 - This is the overwhelming problem the LW found so important that she had to write to the Annies about it?? Unless the mother is in some kind of crossword puzzle competition in which the LW is also a competitor, how her mother solves the puzzles and what definitions she looks up to help her is not only none of the LW's business, but a ridiculous thing to get into an argument over. The LW needs to get over herself and get a life. SHEESH!

LW1 -
What the Annies said, plus, make sure the girl knows the concern ought to be for her to develop healthy eating habit, NOT to be slim at any cost. Countermand the brainwashing every time she's with you and make sure she's with you often, even if it means being the resident free babysitter.

As she gets older, she should have it explained to her, especially by her father, that "some" people have a fixation on weight and that she should not let it become her problem. And let's hope that will be enough to mitigate the harm...

LW2 -
And for some the challenge is not so much to solve the puzzle without help, but to learn new words. This is not a world competition, with strict enforceable rules. Not everyone eats their Oreo cookie the same way. Please don't have the arrogance to dictate to others how they're supposed to enjoy something.

LW1 - Please advise your son to talk to your GD's doctor about what he can do regarding these comments. My grandmother has always been weight obsessed, including when I was a child, too. I always thought I was a fat child because all I ever heard from her were heavy and fat comments and she compared me to my skinny cousin. But I look at photos and see that I wasn't fat at all. But her comments were enough to destroy my self-esteem and turn to food. I'm not saying my grandmother made me overweight. I made myself that way. But her constant weight comments didn't help. Funny thing is she has always been overweight. Projection I guess.

My brother's MIL is obsessed with weight, too. She, however, is sickly thin. But she's proud of it. Every other comment out of this woman's mouth has something to do with fat, calories, food, weight, etc. My SIL has had issues with weight and food her whole life and I have no doubt it's because of her mother. I'm very concerned because she lives with my B, SIL and my neice and nephew and I'm afraid she's going to project her beliefs onto my neice and nephew, especially my neice. I hope I can steer her away from all that negativity.

LW2 - Sorry, honey, but you need a life! Unless she's in a competition, who cares if she looks stuff up? You two are actually arguing over this?? Let her be and stop obsessing over something so silly.

LW1: I'd love to hear the mother's side of this story, which I suspect would be quite different from yours. Maybe the mother is trying to stop her daughter from eating too many fries, pasta, and sweets, and maybe that's a lot of what you and your son feed the child. You didn't mention what you feed the child, so it's hard to tell without hearing the other side. But I could easily see how the mother is doing the right thing.

LW2: I believe the challenge of doing crossword puzzles is being able to do it by using your knowledge and your brain, and certainly if you can do them that way, without using outside sources, it is more of an accomplishment, than if you do use other sources. It's still an accomplishment to solve them using other sources, and being able to complete a puzzle that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to. But it's not at all the same accomplishment as being able to do it without help. It's the same as doing a crossword puzzle all by yourself ... or doing it with someone else, because you both need help to do it. I think it's the same as lifting a 100 lb weight ... a person who can do it by themself should feel more of an accomplishment that two people who lift it together.

LW3- Wow, you think most physically healthy women who are in a relationship also wouldn't be devastated to be told that sex is over for them, but the good news is you can still chat with your girlfriends? Ugh.

LW1, I think you can only encourage your son to deal with this, for him to make it clear to your granddaughter's pediatrician that the child's mother is putting these thoughts into a 4-year-old's head. It's appalling and wrong, I agree, but as grandparents your options are limited to more of a secondary role. If you get too confrontational or contradict the mother too directly, she may work to cut you off from access to your grandchild.

But definitely discuss this with your son and urge him to do something. This kind of thinking horrifies me, like child beauty pageants horrify me. It's just sooooo wrong.

LW2, your mother is a double-dealing fraudulent flimflammer; a swindling, cheating sham. Why doesn't she just look at the answer key and then fill in the puzzle directly from that? Horrifying. Just another terrible example of the complete erosion of values and integrity in today's America. Ponzi. Madoff. Ken Lay. And now, your mom can join these infamous ranks.

I know it may be hard, but I would immediately cut off all contact, or else her criminal ways may start to rub off on you.

Be strong.

LW1: Just praise her and feed her healthy foods. At this point, that's all you can do. If you criticize her mother in front of her, Mom is sure to find out, and you will find yourself cut off - permanently.

LW2: I have often "cheated" on a crossword puzzle to get a key answer, which usually leads to about a dozen other answers I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Life is too short to waste time banging my head against a wall figuring out a clue in an area in which I have no knowledge. Besides, that's another way to learn new thjings. Get of the soapbox and get on with your life.

Re: Dave Galino Wow, seriously? There's a big difference between the mother teaching the 4-year-old daughter about which foods are healthy and focusing on her weight. If the daughter said "mommy doesn't want me to get heavy". you can bet she heard it from Mom. A young child's weight should never be mentioned at all, except with their pediatrician out of earshot of the child.

Re: Michelle
She may not have "made you fat" in the sense that you were the one eating, not her, but you were doing that because SHE is the one who made you turn to food. Close enough to jazz as far as I'm concerned.

@Mike H
LOL!

LW1--Any mother who tells her 4 year old daughter that she needs to watch what she eats so she doesn't get heavy is a whakadoodle of the Nth degree!!! Now I understand why there are so many screwed up teenaged girls with eating disorders and who cut. This woman needs to be reported to CPS and whatever else you do do not remain silent. Ensure your granddaughter at every opportunity how perfect she is. If the mother persists in projecting her own biodysmorphia issues onto her daughter then don't think twice about telling your granddaughter that perhaps her mother has a screw loose.

LW2--Is your life really so empty that this is your biggest concern? Working a crossword puzzle is a fun pastime enjoyed by many and really, who the hell cares how someone plays so long as they derive pleasure and knowledge from the experience. There isn't a such a thing as the "Crossword Puzzle Police" who give a damn if someone looks up definitions in advance so why do you? My advice is to get a life.

LW3--Your counselor is right, you are a lousy role model for your kids.

I'd love to hear the mother's side of this story, which I suspect would be quite different from yours. Maybe the mother is trying to stop her daughter from eating too many fries, pasta, and sweets, and maybe that's a lot of what you and your son feed the child. You didn't mention what you feed the child, so it's hard to tell without hearing the other side. But I could easily see how the mother is doing the right thing.
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Dave Galino, the mother's heart may be in the right place, but even if Dad and Grandma aren't feeding the kid what Mom would prefer, this is not how she should combat it. What Mom's doing is planting the seeds of an eating disorder for her daughter. There have been anorexics diagnosed at age 9.

4YOs tend to simplify things. "Mom doesn't want me to get heavy" doesn't translate to "Mom wants me to establish healthy eating habits because she knows how difficult obesity would be to combat once I'm an adult, and she doesn't want me to have high blood pressure, diabetes or other problems it can cause."

It translates to: " If I'm fat, no one -- not even my MOM -- will love me." And eventually: "Fat is SO bad that I won't eat, even if my body is shutting down for lack of fuel."

Mom can help keep her daughter "from getting heavy" by example far more than by restricting her food. That means not that she needs to be model-thin herself, but that she serves healthy meals, offers healthy snacks, doesn't cut out sweets entirely, engages in physical activity with her daughter and watches the amount of screen time both have.

And she needs to let go of the idea that she can determine what the child will eat away from home. That's part of what's involved in a divorce: you lose a lot of the power you have to set a child's environment, because you're not part of the other parent's (or grandparents') home life. You get to intervene, via court, only when those people are clearly unfit to ensure a kid's safety during the time the kid is with them (i.e.: Drug abuse, mental illness, etc.)

LW1: That just stuns me. Maybe it's because I come from chubby people and may have heard a rather opposite message at times, but it boggles my mind that someone could care what a 4 year weighs (as long as she's healthy). Good for dad that he doesn't want to confront ex-wife-- it's awful when every conversation becomes a battleground with divorced parents-- but sometimes life calls for confrontation. I hope he does call out mom on this terrible behaviour. Grandma can try to set a different example.

LW2: I have recently started doing crossword puzzles more often, and I do look up an answer or two online when I get really stuck. Lol I actually have a clock with a crossword background, and I filled out the template. I suppose there would be greater satisfaction in "doing it myself," but why leave a puzzle incomplete when Google is right there? Hopefully someday I can be one of those people who can just fill out the NY Times Crossword without assistance. But yeah, I'm in full agreement that if this is the LW's biggest problem in life, she needs to thank someone...maybe her mother, given all the other horrible mothers we read about here.

LW3: I feel ya. My cousin had a marriage like this (more horrifying is that we all know about it). Within months we heard they were "on the rocks," and it eventually came out that he refused to have sex with her after the wedding day. My cousin is not an unattractive woman. Cousin eventually surmised (based on additional evidence) that he was probably gay and in denial, as his parents are apparently extremely conservative. Even after she moved out, he held a torch for months, saying they could work things out. Eventually got divorced, she is now remarried to someone presumably straight. I am always baffled when I hear about spouses just calling a halt to sex. It's such a unilateral decision to make for two people-- you just told your spouse S/HE can never have sex again either.

Re: Lucy#11: How do we know that the mother isn't teaching her daughter about healthy foods, without hearing the other side of the story? Just because the LW didn't mention it doesn't mean it's not true. And even if the mother misspoke, and said the wrong thing to her daughter, parents aren't perfect and often misspeak. It doesnt mean that her heart isn't in the right place and simply wants her daughter to be healthy. The LW would certainly only tell her side of the story, and based on that, the mother is wrong. The LW could be 80 lbs overweight and considers her 10 lb overweight granddaughter perfect. All I'm saying is that there's another whole story out there that the mother could tell, and that could change our perspective. I'm not ready to condemn the mother based on the bias opinion of the LW, like others are willing to do here.

LW3 - "As I told my daughter when she was older, "If you decide to give up sex, do not expect your husband to agree with you. There will be consequences."

So you more or less told your daughter that you divorced her mother because you weren't getting any from her. I'm not saying that you should've stayed in the marriage but do you really need to tell your kids that? I knew a woman whose father openly told her many times that her mother/his wife stopped having sex with him after she got pregnant with their second child, over 40 years ago. This woman had no problem saying, "I feel so bad for my Dad. He hasn't had sex in over 40 years!" Nobody should know anything regarding their parent's sex life. That woman had issues with sex and I'm sure your daughter will, too, after hearing that. Wouldn't surprise me if your daughter was constantly afraid her husband her would leave her because she didn't feel like it one night.

LW1-Unfortunately we are seeing that girls are developing eating disorders and body issues at a much younger age. Grant it, maybe not as young as 4. Too much focus on weight when a child is at a healthy weight does send the wrong message. My Grandma was like Michelle's #6 and like her, I always thought I was fat even though I wasn't.
LW2- I also don't think it's a huge deal if your mother looks up some answers. I do as much as I can by myself and look up the ones I'm stumped on but then again, I'm not competing with anyone when doing them. If they are competing to see who is better as Crosswords, then the Mother should not look up the answers as that would be cheating but I don't get why this bothers the LW so much if her Mother is just doing the crosswords on her own.
LW3- Neither party should just halt sex. If one of the partners is having a problem getting in the mood or staying in the mood, a visit to the doctors is warranted. Yes, men develop EDD and women lose some of their libido as they age but there are things to help with that.

LW1 - I think it would be good for your son to discuss this with the ex and the daughter's pediatrician. But it can not be a bad thing to start working on the granddaughter's eating habits now. There are numerous agencies tracking obesity in the U.S. they are currently seeing overweight/obesity rates of nearly 1/3 of children. They are seeing significant numbers of children as young as 5 and 6 with these issues - just a year or two older than the granddaughter. I don't think the mother is phrasing things correctly as the focus is on being "heavy" and physical appearance. The granddaughter should watch what she eats because it is healthy to do so and that is what the mother should have emphasized. The father and grandmother can certainly ensure the granddaughter they love her no matter what; but teaching her healthy eating habits now, instead of when problems with food and weight issues develop. A lot of overweight teenagers got that way because they were not taught healthy attitudes towards food and eating healthfully at the age the granddaughter is now and will spend a life time fighting the habits developed when they were very young.

LW1: It's obvious that the LW doesn't like her son's ex. and I suspect that this letter isn't the complete truth. Without proof of wrongdoing I will ALWAYS side with a parent's decision on how best to raise his/her children. Grandma needs to butt out and button up.

LW1: Sorry, everybody, but my inclination of this letter is along the lines of what Dave Galino (#7) stated.

Look, the kid is 4 years old. FOUR! That was the key for me when she said, "My mommy told me to watch what I eat because she doesn't want me (to) get heavy." (And yes, I did see a few of the other BTL posts for possible interpretations. I see it differently.) Logic tells me at age 4 you don't know quite how to put things into words. What I think Jill's "mommy" is trying to tell her is eat healthy foods and make good nutrition choices, not that "it's not OK to be fat." The age of 4, I'd think, is a good time to start teaching them the difference between eating apple slices for a snack vs. choosing a cookie, if given two options.

Yes, of course, if the mother is trying to make Jill a contestant on "America's Next Top Model" – OK, I meant that sarcastically; I really mean planting seeds that will one day lead her to anorexia – then there's concern. But I believe it's just like what Dave and a few others, I see, are saying: a diet of vegetables, fruit and healthful amounts of meat, dairy, grains, etc. vs. one loaded with sweets and fried foods.

Paula (#19) – Perhaps it is that the mother is not "phrasing" things correctly. I think it's more a case of "Kids Say the Darndest Things" – surely, the LW has seen at least the BIll Cosby version – and a 4-year-old's interpretation of what "mommy" says. I agree otherwise.

I don't trust a woman who tells her 4 year old to watch what she eats. That's how they start. Next thing you know they give up on sex and then it's just a matter of time before you catch them cheating on crosswords. It's a sick, sick world.

LW2: 10 Down: four-letter abbrev. telling you to "butt out."

A11 on the jukebox: Song recorded in 1986 by country music pioneer's son (hint: they share the same first name, and the father – a great songwriter – gave his son his well-known nickname), along with a pair of redheads, the leader of a group of "Heartbreakers" and a clergyman who shares his name with the nickname of our 34th president, and became a huge hit; also recorded by the guy who began a sausage company. The title is the answer to 10 Down spelled out.

Cryptic clues leading to my advice for the LW.

LW2 ~ I lost my mom 12 years ago, when I was only 24, and lost my dad 4 years later, when I was 28. Your letter just brought back to me YEARS of my mom and dad, everyday, doing the crossword puzzle. They shared the one in the paper every day. Dad would start in the morning with coffee before heading to work. Mom worked nights, so she would take over before heading to bed. Dad would pick it up in the evening when he got home, and mom would finish it up before heading back to work.

My parents had an assortment of Crossword Dictionaries that they readily used. Mom would frustrated with Dad that he used pen, even on guesses. Over the years, they still used the dictionaries to look up clues they didn't know, but while doing that, they learned the answers and the next time that clue might be used in a puzzle, they knew the answer. It was a learning experience.

I hadn't thought about that in YEARS until now. Thank you for that memory. Now, cut your mom some slack, and be thankful you still have her here to argue about such silly things.

LW1 - I'm not entirely sympathetic, here. Everyone is fat, learning the lesson that eating well to maintain some semblance of a figure is not a bad thing. Frankly, when I see the Annies say: 1200 calories, healthy food - it's the same damn thing. Like you can't attach self worth and self esteem to weight BUT it's not too early to learn that too much food isn't healthy. If she says "why", and she will eventually, a simple honest response would do... because eating too much and not getting enough exercise can cause you to gain weight which is bad for your heart. OR whatever.

LW2 - My grandma is the queen of crosswords and she has a big dictionary all marked up with hints, clues, synonyms and so on, that she's accumulated over the years. Sometimes, how else are you supposed to get an answer, anyway? You do it your way, and let your mother do it her way. You sound crazy by the way. Google "crossword puzzle rules", show them to your mom if you want, then let her do whatever she wants.

LW3 - I was with you up until the last bit, which is pretty gross. Fathers should not threaten their daughters with "consequences" if they don't have enough sex (regardless of with whom). You sound like you still need to get it, by the way. Be glad you only spent four years on the couch before you left, and not 40. And for the love of Pete, don't compare sex with idle girl chatter.

Re: Michelle

Same thing happened to me (re: fat) - my dad would often comment that I was gaining weight or whatever. I was never skinny, but looking back, I was NOT-NOT-NOT fat. I remember getting a checkup at the doctor when I was 13 or something and being shocked when she told me I was a healthy weight. Because of that, when I actually did start to gain weight in my late teens, I didn't really notice or care. Additionally, I was made to eat everything on my plate. Thankfully I've gotten over it now - I eat pretty well, exercise, yadda yadda.

LW1 - I'm not entirely sympathetic, here. Everyone is fat, learning the lesson that eating well to maintain some semblance of a figure is not a bad thing. Frankly, when I see the Annies say: 1200 calories, healthy food - it's the same damn thing. Like you can't attach self worth and self esteem to weight BUT it's not too early to learn that too much food isn't healthy. If she says "why", and she will eventually, a simple honest response would do... because eating too much and not getting enough exercise can cause you to gain weight which is bad for your heart. OR whatever.

LW2 - My grandma is the queen of crosswords and she has a big dictionary all marked up with hints, clues, synonyms and so on, that she's accumulated over the years. Sometimes, how else are you supposed to get an answer, anyway? You do it your way, and let your mother do it her way. You sound crazy by the way. Google "crossword puzzle rules", show them to your mom if you want, then let her do whatever she wants.

LW3 - I was with you up until the last bit, which is pretty gross. Fathers should not threaten their daughters with "consequences" if they don't have enough sex (regardless of with whom). You sound like you still need to get it, by the way. Be glad you only spent four years on the couch before you left, and not 40. And for the love of Pete, don't compare sex with idle girl chatter.

Re: Michelle

Same thing happened to me (re: fat) - my dad would often comment that I was gaining weight or whatever. I was never skinny, but looking back, I was NOT-NOT-NOT fat. I remember getting a checkup at the doctor when I was 13 or something and being shocked when she told me I was a healthy weight. Because of that, when I actually did start to gain weight in my late teens, I didn't really notice or care. Additionally, I was made to eat everything on my plate. Thankfully I've gotten over it now - I eat pretty well, exercise, yadda yadda.

MAN! The one day I don't get on BTL, Lolley posts! Dang it. I hope she comes back today!

Back to LW1: I like picking letters apart.

"My son is divorced from Jill's mother. He informed me that his ex does indeed send this type of message to her little girl. My son is a great father. He tries to avoid confrontations with his ex and her parents, as they can be manipulative and self-centered."

Nah, I don't see any bias here. *insert eye roll here*


"I will never speak disparagingly to my granddaughter about her mother"

No, you'll just speak disparagingly about her to advice columnists. And maybe a few other people.

Zoe, I love you man. My thoughts exactly.

I'll bet the grandparents are trying to curry favour with the child and taking her to McDonald's a lot. The mother probably told the child she doesn't think McD is a good idea, and child then asks, why not? And mom comes up with poor answer. Grandparents are also into sweets.

LW1 -- While I generally agree with everyone who said 4 years old is a tad too early to be worrying about being overweight (good heavens, it's called "baby fat" for a reason, and many perfectly healthy kids don't lose that baby fat until they are in their teens!), I think Dave Galino raises a valid point. I'd be willing to bet good money that the LW doesn't much like her ex-DIL -- probably didn't like her a whole lot BEFORE the divorce and certainly not after it. And that's not just speculation -- she even says she thinks the DIL and her parents are manipulative and self-centered. Now, don't get me wrong -- they may well be. But LW would hardly be the first MIL to place all blame of a failed marriage on the in-law rather than admit her own flesh-and-blood might not be perfect and might actually have played a part in that marriage ending. So, I suspect this could be one of those times when the LW may not be the most reliable of narrators, and hearing the other side of the story might change a lot of minds.

Still, it IS disturbing that this little girl is already this conscious of her weight and potential weight issues, and clearly she IS getting it from somewhere. LW's best course of action is to try to model the behavior and attitude she wishes to see thrive in her granddaughter.

When I was in pre-school, my mother was working part-time, so after pre-school (a couple of days a week) I would go home with one of my friends at the school. This was a family we knew pretty well, since they also had a son my brother's age, and they were friends, too. Unbeknownst to my mother, however, my friend's mom was a horribly unhappy woman, and that unhappiness often trickled down to me when I was there. One day, she called her daughter and me to come see her. She looked at her daughter, and then she looked at me, and she said to me: "Well, my daughter is growing this way (gesturing with her hands vertically), but you seem to be growing THIS way (gesturing with her hands horizontally)." Now, let's get a few facts out on the table:

1) I was in pre-school, so I would have been 3 or 4 when this occurred -- kids are SUPPOSED to carry a certain amount of baby fat at this age.

2) Her daughter was, is and always will be much taller than I am. Indeed, that entire family was taller than every single member of my family. Even though my brother eventually grew to be 6'2, her son was, is and always will be taller than my brother. So, yes, her daughter and I certainly had different body types, no question about it. But I did not have a weight problem at the tender age of 4.

3) As it happens, my mother was a very fit woman (and still is, for her age -- she's closing in on 70, but she still swims about a mile three to five times a week) -- slim, trim and a healthy eater. This woman was entirely sedentary, and even though she was about the same age as my mother, she looked more than 10 years older than my mother and certainly was heavier than my mother. So, if I was going to model a healthy lifestyle, who do you think was offering me the better example?

Interestingly, by the time this woman came out with that lovely pronouncement, I had already long since learned -- even at age 4 -- that this woman was out of her skull, so I knew better than to take what she said to heart. After all, this was the same woman who, every time she would see me, the first thing she would say to me was, "Are your parents fighting today?'' This woman was a staunch Catholic married to an equally staunch Catholic who thought it was perfectly awful that my Catholic mother had married a Jewish man. She was convinced that there was no way they could be happy together and that no good would come of that marriage (including, apparently, me). But one of the things I also quickly picked up on was that while my parents occasionally did argue (whose parents don't?), it wasn't nearly so often as this woman and her husband. Even at age 4, I could tell which family was generally happy and which family generally was not. Even at age 4, I knew there was something not quite right about this woman.

Of course, the difference is, this woman wasn't related to me, and although I did see her often while I remained friends with her daughter (which lasted through about 5th grade, and then we drifted apart), obviously she was never going to have the same kind of influence over me as my own mother. So, certainly the concern in the LW's situation absolutely is far greater than it was in mine.

But another big difference between my story and the one told by the LW is that times have changed. Childhood obesity is a big problem in this country, and so parents actually DO need to be concerned about their children's weight at an earlier age. There are a number of factors that have created this problem, not the least of which is that parents are afraid to let their kids walk or ride their bikes to school, parents are afraid to let their kids walk down the street to go play with the other neighborhood kids -- heck, their afraid to let their kids play in their own yards unless they are constantly supervised. The result: kids do most of their playing inside and don't get nearly as much physically active playtime as they used to.

Again, I still find it disturbing to be overly concerned about a 4-year-old's weight...unless, of course, the pediatrician is similarly concerned -- and guess what? The LW probably doesn't know whether the pediatrician is or is not concerned, as it's not likely she's going to her granddaughter's doctor's appointments. And depending on the custody arrangement, it wouldn't surprise me if the father isn't attending most of these appointments, either (though he could be -- we have no way of knowing) -- and even if he is, that doesn't mean he has told the LW about them. My point: for all we know, this kid IS showing signs of a weight problem, and the pediatrician has actually talked with the mother about this, and she is acting with his/her guidance. We don't know this because, as Dave Galino astutely pointed out, we are only getting one side of this story, and given the nature of MANY MIL/DIL relationships -- especially post-divorce -- it's not hard to imagine that the side of the story we are getting is somewhat exaggerated or otherwise not totally reliable.

That's why my advice to the LW is to concentrate on setting a healthy example for her granddaughter, period.

P.S. This is about the fourth time I've tried to post this, so if this posts multiple times, I apologize.

@volpe -- priceless!

LW2 -- I am well-known by regulars at the BTL for my way-too-long posts that try to see both sides of things, etc. But I read your letter, and all I could come up with is this: get a life. Seriously.

@Volpe, #22, thank you! Sometimes the hard truths just need to be said!

On a more serious note, I was a fat kid. I was always heavier than my older and younger sisters and my younger brother. I got to 70kg when I was in high school. My mother is a pediatrician and the food at home was healthy, but the problem was I ate too much too quickly. I've always had self esteem issues, and I finally lost the weight by restraining the amount of food I ate by myself. Today I am underweight but I haven't gotten over feeling ugly and useless in my teenage years. I sort of wish my mother would have restricted my eating habits when I was a kid, but then again, I was really rotten and talked back a lot when given good advice or kind suggestions, so maybe I just deserved it.

***Off topic warning!***

Hey guys, I need your advice today! Just telling this story makes me feel like I'm in high school, but I'm at such a loss!

Two ladies and I operate a cat rescue organization together and have since 2011. I'm 27, Megan is 30 and Kathy is 35 ish. Obviously, we've had our disagreements over the years but they resolve fast and we all get on with our lives, and for the most part we have a really dynamic. But this month the other two have been at each other's throats. Actually, Kathy has been on Megan and Megan is just lost and confused. Both of them confide in me, and I try to stay neutral while kind of defending the other ("I see your point but I can also see why she took it that way"), but I'm getting exasperated.

It boils down to personality conflict. Megan can be quite annoying and obnoxious and condescending - she is the type that, when she gets really enthusiastic about something she will research research and then think and act like she's an expert. She will go out of her way to tell people she's on the "board of directors" and her tone can be motherly/condescending when she's talking about something she fancies herself an expert on. She interrupts constantly and tends to think of herself first (like little things - taking the best seat, refusing a task if she's tired, etc). Despite all that, she's a really good person who doesn't MEAN these things and I consider her a good friend with lots of qualities 99% of the time. But Kathy can't stand her half the time, takes her condescending tone personally, and is the type that expects everyone else to be willing to sacrifice 4 weeks a month because she is.

It is worth nothing that Kathy has exploded at me in the past for relatively small things. Megan and I have never had it out with each other, and Kathy tends to be the cause. But in the past it would last a day.

I get where Kathy is coming from but she isn't helping. She will say something stupid bitchy / full of attitude, and if Megan calls her on it, Kathy will pretend everything is fine and she wasn't giving any attitude, and sorry isn't in Kathy's vocabulary. Yesterday Kathy told me she knew that what she said could be perceived as bitchy, but she said it anyway. Like bait or something. It's been a long, busy month for us and we're all stressed and exhausted with events and kittens, but I can't keep using that excuse.

Both are confiding in me and both think I am on their side, but I think Kathy is way in the wrong. Megan can be super annoying but it's the sort of thing you vent about briefly and then it's fine. OR at worst you say "look when you interrupt me it really bugs me" or whatever. Megan has no idea why Kathy is on her like this, but I do. But I also do not want to break confidences but I am starting to wish I could tell her. I think it would help, but I don't know.

I can't extricate myself entirely because we have to work closely together. I try not to engage more than I need to, but then Megan tells me she cried last night and like I am just lost. I don't want to be that kid that goes "guys stop fighting! can't we all just get along". The rescue also can't afford to lose any one of us.

I don't know if there's an easy answer but... help!

Re: LW1, after reading gerhardt and zoe, I think I let my horror of toddler beauty pageants let my imagination run wild... I will now agree it's *entirely* plausible that the LW is exaggerating the situation because she dislikes her son's ex.

Doesn't mean that the LW shouldn't still talk to her son about this issue just to be sure -- because for all we know the LW is telling the unvarnished truth. But, yeah, it would also be good to hear the other side of the story.

Re: Dave Galino
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You wrote: "How do we know that the mother isn't teaching her daughter about healthy foods, without hearing the other side of the story?"
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The kid's mother specifically told her to watch what she ate because she didn't want her to get fat. To quote what the LW told her that the child said, "My mommy told me to watch what I eat because she doesn't want me get heavy." If she just wanted her to be healthy, which is what at that age she should be teaching, she would not have worded it that way.
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If everyone would just concentrate on health and not how fat or thin a person is, the world would be a better place.

Re: Mike H (#36)

While I do sense some animosity toward the exes by the LW, I admit I never even thought about Jill being entered in the pint-sized beauty pageant.

Honestly, I think this is just simply a case of two ex-spouses and parents clashing over their daughter's nutrition. Grandma wants to feed her a strawberry ice cream sundae (forget the nuts; I HATE nuts) while mom wants her to eat zucchini strips and tropical fruit mix. Somewhere, there's got to be a happy medium, I think.

I know you accuse me of letting me go overboard sometimes, but let's not let our dislike of child beauty pageants go overboard here.

Speaking of strawberry sundaes – my treat. How many of you will take (a virtual) strawberry sundae? Or any type of sundae? We had doughnuts the other night, after all.

@Zoe (35) -- depending on how comfortable you are doing this, you might try to have the three of you sit down for a little come-to-Jesus meeting about how the obvious tension among the three of you (include yourself -- for one thing, you ARE sharing that tension, even if you're the one who is busily trying to diffuse it and are not contributing to it; for another, it sounds less "high-horsey" if you include yourself) is hurting the mission and that all three of you need to find a better way to deal with all this stuff if the mission is to continue, as the organization cannot afford to lose a single one of you. You'll also want to emphasize what you three have in common -- a passion for saving cats -- and that that is where the focus needs to be, instead of on personality conflicts, who gets the best tasks, who works the hardest, etc. Talk about recognizing that each one of you brings a different set of strengths and weaknesses to the table and trying to stay focused on what the strengths are while "forgiving" what the weaknesses are. If you can, you might want to make a point of something YOU said or did that was negative, and then either apologize for it or show how you're going to learn from it/resolve it/whatever and move on -- this way you are using yourself both as an example of the problem and as an example of a willingness to be part of the solution.

You don't need to break any confidences -- you'd be seeing these troubles just from watching them interact, right? I'm assuming it's pretty obvious there is tension, so you address this from that standpoint, rather than, "look, you're both complaining to me about each other, so let's just clear the air, shall we?" You're basically accomplishing the same thing but without breaking anyone's confidence and without making it seem like you are St. Zoe who never does anything wrong.

Re: p

"The kid's mother specifically told her to watch what she ate because she didn't want her to get fat. To quote what the LW told her that the child said, "My mommy told me to watch what I eat because she doesn't want me get heavy." If she just wanted her to be healthy, which is what at that age she should be teaching, she would not have worded it that way."

Kids say things that are not always accurate representations of what they were told. Morever, I have witnessed adults coach their children ("go ask grandma why she smokes" or "go ask uncle Bill why he lets cousin John live there for free"), and twist the things that kids have said for their own reasons.

It is POSSIBLE that the kid's mother is pressuring her to be thin and obsessed with her weight, but it's at least as likely (more so in my opinion) that we are dealing with a mix of the mother encouraging healthy eating, with things the daughter has seen and heard, and some twisting done by the LW1 to further vilify the girl's mother.

"If everyone would just concentrate on health and not how fat or thin a person is, the world would be a better place."

Yeah and we'd all be dead at 50 from a coronary. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be slim, nothing wrong with eating less to achieve that goal. The emphasis should be on a healthy body, yes, but a healthy body is not usually overweight (obviously I am referring to significant excess weight, not a few pounds from childbirth). I say this is an overweight person. I eat well and exercise and I am not willing to do any more of either to drop to a size 4 or whatever, but if I could wave a magic wand and be a size 4, I sure would.

What I'm saying is, there IS a happy medium between being obsessed with body imagine, and not caring about it at all.

Re: p (#37)

"The kid's mother specifically told her to watch what she ate because she didn't want her to get fat. To quote what the LW told her that the child said, "My mommy told me to watch what I eat because she doesn't want me get heavy." If she just wanted her to be healthy, which is what at that age she should be teaching, she would not have worded it that way."

Yes, except that Jill is 4 years old and can only interpret her mother's statements the best she could. I read the same statement you did, and so did several others who disagree with the LW.

Jill's mother is, I think, rightly concerned about obesity, and was possibly trying to tell her daughter, in a way she could understand, to back off the cream-filled snack cakes (they don't make Twinkies anymore, sad to say) because eating too many in a short time could make her too heavy for her age.

Before I had internet, I had a crossword dictionary and a thesaurus.

Re: Lisa

Oh yes, the tension is VERY obvious. The problem is that Megan doesn't know Kathy is hating on her.

I have thought of bringing them both into a discussion about it. The problem is that Kathy, when confronted, does not acknowledge any wrongdoing on her part. It's really hard to discuss it with someone who makes it out to be your fault for perceiving it a certain way.

Additionally, she is very nice in person, event in the midst of all the tension, it's like old times when we're together in person.

It actually makes it REALLY hard to resolve anything! I am thinking it will just be a matter of time to get over it. But by telling Megan what I know, it might help her a) understand and b) make some minor adjustments to how she communicates to tick Kathy off less. (Of course, this is my vision in my head - the reality might be disastrous).

Re: Michelle
Curious, why do you preface your reply to LW2 with a term of endearment, i.e, honey and refrain from doing so when you reply to LW3...clearly a male...I know lots of sweet men, ever so deserving of cute pet names.

Zoe - I don't know how much I can help but you sound like the most mature one of the bunch. I had two coworkers who basically did the same thing to me. Well, one was way more immature about it even going so far as demanding that I stop being friends with the other lady. I did my best to stay out of their fights and tried to be as good of a listener to both of them while staying neutral. Eventually, the coworker/friend that demanded I stop being friends with the other lady got fired (a whole other story but was a justified firing). By the time she got fired, our friendship suffered to the point of us not being very good friends. I can say that it was extremely stressful being put in the middle. I just wanted to tell them both that we are all grown a$$ women (Late 30 to mid 40 at the time) and should just get along. I feel for you.

Re: JustBecause

Thank you! But I can't fault Megan for her part in this. I have seen some of the emails she went to Kathy. One of them was her practically begging Kathy to tell her why she's angry with her, and if she's not, to try to word things differently because she's trying not to take offense but it's really hard. I'm been in her shoes before and it's not easy.

I am starting to ask myself what I would want them to do if I were in their shoes. Which doesn't really help as the answer changes depending on whose shoes I'm in! At this point I am starting to think that Kathy is being this way on purpose but I have no idea why or what she seeks to gain. She has acknowledged that it's a personality conflict, yet refuses to get over the mild irritating that Megan can sometimes cause her.

@p -- just chiming in with Zoe and Bobaloo. Agree with all that they said and want to add one other facet: many, many, many people today use the word "heavy" as a more politically correct way to say "fat" or "obese." In general, it is not usually healthy to be truly fat or obese -- but since we've made it a cardinal sin to say "fat," we say "heavy." If the 4-year-old is actually quoting her mother verbatim (and, as correctly points out, that is far from certain), then I think we can safely interpret that the message was supposed to be "I want you to be healthy" not "I want you to starve yourself until you are thin as a rail." Mind you, I would agree that "I want you to be healthy" would be a much better message than "I don't want you to be fat."

And I will further add that the penchant of grandmothers for spoiling their grandchildren -- buying them toys and gifts they don't need or giving them candy, baked goods and other not-so-healthy snacks -- much to the dismay of many a mother is such a time-honored tradition -- even when the mother and grandmother love each other and get along swimmingly! -- that it's just not very hard to imagine the following conversation at Jill's mother's house:

Mom: OK, Jill, time for your snack.
Jill: Aw, Mom -- carrot sticks? Grandma let's me have cookies.
Mom: But carrots are good for you -- and you like carrots.
Jill: Yes, but I like cookies better!
Mom: Well, carrots are better for you than cookies.
Jill: Then why does Grandma give me cookies?

And from there, the conversation gets dicey and possibly goes awry, because frankly, Jill's mom probably isn't all that fond of Grandma, either, and even if she is, at about this point in the conversation she is not pleased that Grandma has been stuffing her child with cookies instead of vegetables. So, yes, the rest of that conversation should have been:
Mom: Because that's what Grandma does. But I'm your mother, and I have to make sure you eat healthy so that when Grandma wants to indulge you now and then, it's not a big deal, because you eat healthy the rest of the time.
As opposed to what might really be going through the mother's head, which may be closer to: "Because Grandma wouldn't know a well-balanced meal if it bit her on her fat ass and loves nothing better than to undermine me at every turn." But she knows she shouldn't say that, so instead she winds up saying "because I don't want you to get too heavy." Not as good as "because I want you to be healthy," -- but we don't always have the perfect thing to say ready to go, and it's even harder still to have the perfect thing to say ready to go when you are quietly fuming about your MIL.

Now, all of what I just suggested above is wild-eyed speculation on my part, I grant you. But knowing that grandmothers have been spoiling grandchildren to the dismay of their mothers for millennia, perhaps it's not quite so far-fetched as it sounds.

@Bobaloo, oh, just to be clear, I wasn't at all thinking that the granddaughter in the letter WAS actually entered in toddler pageants, just that I see the issue of telling a young child to worry about being fat as part of a sliding scale of applying twisted adult beauty and weight standards inappropriately towards children.

@Mike H (48) -- and that's exactly why, when I first read the letter, my immediate response was similar to yours and a number of others -- "what is that mother thinking? The kid is 4, let's not get her on the you-must-be-thin-thin-thin crazy train!" Then I read Dave Galino's post, and it occurred to me that we might not have the most reliable of narrators here and that if we heard the other side of this story, we might have a far different reaction to this letter. When you see some of the stuff on shows like "Toddlers & Tiaras," when you see teens and women of a variety of ages literally starving themselves in the name of beauty, it's clear that we are doing a number on women's body images and self-esteems. And it's easy to read that first letter and jump to the conclusion that the mother is well on her way to turning her daughter into a walking eating disorder. Then you think about how grandmothers have been spoiling their grandchildren (and unintentionally -- and intentionally -- undermining the parents) for millennia -- and that this happens even when the grandmothers and mothers have GOOD relationships -- and then you add in the fact that clearly the LW does NOT have a good relationship with the mother, and you start to wonder if maybe we're not getting the most accurate version of what's really going on here...

The crossword puzzle issue reminded me of when I worked in a 6 person office. We had just opened and were not very busy. We got the daily paper, and we would make 5 copies of the crossword and each work it between customers. We did have 2 dictionaries that we would use if we needed help. It was a competition between all of us to see who could finish first. I was so hooked on those puzzles that when I changed offices, I had them interoffice me a copy of the puzzle each day!
Re LW1: Its never too early to start educating children on healthy eating. And let's face it, being overweight is not good for you and can cause multiple health issues. I agree that there is a fine line between teaching about healthy eating and instilling eating disorders. I tend to agree with Lisa # 47.

LW 2 I like letters like this one. It cheers me up to realize there are some people in this world with no problems at all. That their life is so easy and carefree that they have nothing to worry about. I'm serious. Years ago a terrible thing happened to the health of a family member. The next morning the advice column had a letter about which way the pillowcase opening should be facing on the bed, in or out. It was such a silly question to write about but it made me laugh that day.

@Zoe: Unbelievable that someone would act like that at 35. Even if Megan is annoying, Kathy either needs to learn a method to deal with it, or quit your rescue. It's not fair to anyone (or your cause) for her to constantly be at Megan's throat. I agreed with Lisa that you should sit them down and hash it out. But if she can't accept that she's doing anything wrong, there's really not much you can do. If you tell Megan what you know, prepare for an all out war. Things like that have a way of getting back to the person. You don't want Kathy to think you're trying to pit her and Megan against each other (which is ironic, since that's what she's trying to do.) Maybe the next time, Kathy says something to you about Megan, stop her and say “It's not my place to get in the middle of it.” because it's not your place. You're there to help cats, not listen to junior high drama. If Kathy can't be an adult, and either just roll her eyes when Megan's being annoying, or confront her about being annoying, it's not going to go away. She sounds like a perpetual teenager. Sucks for you though :( It's never fun when people put you in the middle of their drama.

LW3: I'm going to go ahead and go out on a limb and guess your daughter has major daddy issues....

Re: Casey

Thanks for your input. I actually tend to get along better with Kathy, but I can't believe how she is acting. Nor would you believe someone so sweet in person would have such a mean streak.

Yeah that is my concern with telling Megan what I know. I have been playing over the conversation in my head and I still don't know what I will do. I do hate the idea of "tattling" on Kathy. However if there's one thing Megan has in spades, it's loyalty and trustworthiness and I do not think it would get back to Kathy. And anyway, I wouldn't be telling her anything she doesn't already suspect, I would just be confirming which of the many suspected causes of this is the right one.

Ugh, I can tell I am leaning toward opening up to Megan, but I hate the idea of being "that guy" who can't keep a secret. If Kathy were right to be angry I wouldn't say anything, but at this point it hardly feels like a confidence worth anything is being broken, you know? Bah. Stupid people! I don't think I went through anything this annoying even when I was in high school.

Re: clemma

Good question. I have no idea. I guess I owe LW3 a "honey."

LW1- Is it possible that the little girl sometimes comforts herself with food because no one is allowing her to mourn her parents divorce? Very often, when divorcing parents ask if their child is coping well, the kids respond "I'm okay," because they know that is what the parents want to hear. And kids secretly always believe that the parents divorced because of something they did wrong. It is just how kids think, because they are self-centered. So maybe the little girl was scarfing down cookies one day, and mom took them away and said something like, "you can't eat too many at one time, because you will get heavy." Maybe it isn't a general theme, maybe mom was responding to an incident. Grandma can present her concerns to her son, so they can keep an ongoing discussion with the girl, to try to discern if her attitude toward food is generally healthy, but don't make it into a big deal- it might not be. Also, don't tell her she is 'perfect'- because that plants the idea that she must actually be perfect, to be loved. It is better to tell her that she looks great, she is at a very healthy weight, or something like that. Keep feeding her healthy food in correct portions, and if that satisfies her, there really isn't a problem.

re Zoe#35- I think Lisa's idea, about sitting down with both ladies to talk it out is a good idea. Maybe a general air clearing would help everyone to step back and realize, you are not there to prove that your way of doing things is the only way, the cats need help, everyone is there to provide it. That's all. And I would also say, (this is you talking) I don't want to get in the middle of any issues that you two need to work out. Please don't ask me to take sides, because I like you both very much, and I am sad when there is tension between us. So I will not listen to any more attempts to get me to take sides, so when it happens, I am going to keep repeating this: go talk to her. If they can't stop dragging you into the middle of their conflict, you will have to ignore them both. This will escalate tensions, but why should you put up with this? They are both acting like 6 year olds.

Re: Mike H (#48)

Understood.

Anyway – any ice cream sundaes, anyone?

@Bobaloo -- I'm ALWAYS up for a sundae!

Re: Lisa (#47)

Alright! What kind would you like for a sundae? Anybody else?

In any event, Lisa, I agree that a conversation between Jill and her mother easily could have been as you describe.

I've no idea the relationship between the mother and ex-MIL – probably is a bit strained, to say the least. Even so, I'm going to guess – and that's all it is on my part – that even grandma (the LW) serves vegetables and fruit to go along with the cheeseburger and fries (e.g., a side of corn, perhaps some banana and strawberry slices in a cup and then the cookie to top it off). That's as far as I'm taking the speculation today.

@Zoe, I think, with a triad, there's almost no way for you to reveal a secret from Kathy to Megan and not have it come back to Kathy in some way. Even if Megan doesn't deliberately reveal the knowledge, or the source of her knowledge, I'm betting that Kathy would understand indirectly or figure it out intuitively.

For me, I'm much more inclined to either go with the "let's all three of us talk" scenario, or to encourage Kathy and Megan to talk specifically about the things that are being kept secret. Maybe by having a talk with each one of them separately, reminding them of their shared objectives, and the other's good qualities, and how they've been able to work out disagreements in the past.

You know them best of all, of course, but I'd really recommend you trying to stay neutral, or "above the fray", and simply encourage them to work it out together. Anything else may run the risk of destabilizing the triad, where it feels like 2 against 1, and it may be very hard to return to a harmonious working environment after that.

@Bobaloo -- if my mother were here, I'd have her make her famous, homemade hot fudge for these sundaes. Since she's not (or at least I don't think so!), I'll go with a triple threat: vanilla ice cream with hot fudge, caramel and peanut butter!

Yes, you and I switched places today -- I did the wild-eyed speculation on the LW and her ex-DIL, but it wasn't entirely based on speculation. First, there is the fact that the LW does make it clear she doesn't much like her ex-DIL -- calling her (and her parents) self-centered and manipulative. Moreover, while some divorces ARE amicable and exes and ex-in-laws all get along -- many of them are NOT amicable (or are merely barely civil), and the ex-in-law relationships are usually complicated, at best. Now, some people are very good about remaining civil -- even downright amiable -- even when they are dealing with someone they don't much like, and LW may well be one of those people -- but more often than not, in a situation like this one, relations are strained, at best. So my speculation on the nature of their relationship is based on evidence from the letter, as well as observing how divorce can strain these relationships.

And yes, it's totally possible that LW serves up as many veggies and fruit as she does cookies, burgers and fries. Heck, it's possible the LW is a nutritionist and actually serves perfectly balanced meals at all times. But most of the grandmothers I know, even though they are well aware of what a well-balanced meal looks like, are prone to indulge their grandchildren in ways that they wouldn't indulge themselves and didn't indulge their own children. I've seen this happen (and not just with food -- toys, letting them getting away with things, etc.) almost across-the-board with every grandparent I've ever known. The rare exception has been when the grandparent actually had custody of the grandchildren, and as primary caregivers, they had to be more parent-like than grandparent-like. But the phenomenon of grandparents indulging their grandchildren is so common that it is often the butt of many a sit-com, book, movie, etc. Now, not that I would consider pop culture to be a scientific survey, but I really do think that while I definitely AM speculating about all this, it's probably not all that wild-eyed.

At the end of the day, we have no way of knowing for sure that LW isn't being totally truthful and accurate in her portrayal of the situation and is not allowing her stated dislike of her DIL to color her perceptions here. I just think there are enough red flags to call into question whether she's a reliable narrator, and therefore I agreed with Dave Galino (who I think was the first one to suggest this) and others that this may well be a case where, if we heard the other side of the story, we wouldn't be so quick to assume the mother is doing a number on her little girl's body image and self-esteem.

So, you and I have largely agreed on this particular topic, and we can merrily dig into our sundaes!

@Zoe -- it's a tricky situation you've got there. Not sure if the "come-to-Jesus" approach will work, or if you're better off just trying to wait it out, or if you should start "meddling" by telling one or the other of them, "look, here's the thing..." and breaking the confidence. Good luck! The kitties are counting on you!

Re: Lisa

I'd love it if some other BTL'ers – even those who things have been rough earlier in the week – would join in. Ice cream's fresh and ice cold ... ! Lots of yummy toppings available.

"A 4-year-old girl should be eating roughly 1,200 calories a day . . . "

Since when did the Annies become doctors??? They should NOT be advising ANYONE about counting calories for a 4-year-old.

"A 4-year-old girl should be eating roughly 1,200 calories a day . . . "
Since when did the Annies become doctors??? They should NOT be advising ANYONE about counting calories for a 4-year-old.

@ Bobaloo------
OK, I'm game. First preference is hot fudge (just ice cream and fudge, none of that other stuff that just detracts from the fudge and ice cream----------------------second would be a choc. banana sundae with just ice cream, sliced bananas, and choc. syrup. And if those are all gone, I'll take anything available.
How fast can you get it here? I'm down with the flu right now, and I know it would make an enormous difference in how fast I get well. (Trying not to cough into my computer and give it to any of you.)

Re: jennylee

Done! Just as you like it, with your first choice.

Get well soon!

Bobaloo - Thanks for the sundae idea. I'm not Canadian, I just pretend I am when I pour maple syrup (the real stuff) over vanilla ice cream.

Re: Dave Galino #7
"Maybe the mother is trying to stop her daughter from eating too many fries, pasta, and sweets"
The kid is *four years old*. Her mother has complete control over what she eats. It's not like she's at an age when she raids the fridge every three minutes (pre-teens and older kids will do that). Even if she ate nothing but junk food at her grannie's, how often is THAT, considering the parents are divorced? Unless the kid is grossly obese already or has severe health issues, a coupla candy & cookie binges a month ain't gonna do nothin', and that mom is just plain obsessed-cuckoo-for-the-cocoa-puff.

@Volpe #22
LOL!

@Mike H #36
I dunno, man... whatever else the LW may be exaggerating about, unless she completely made it up, for a 4 year-old to say her mother doesn't want her to get heavy is pretty worrisome. Children that age don't make up stuff like that.

@p #37
Yep. There is little worse than the right thing done for the wrong reasons. Wrong reasons yield wrong results. Every time.

@Bobaloo #37
"(forget the nuts; I HATE nuts)"
Figures... There are some here who would tend to think YOU are nuts... (just gently teasing you here, I really mean no hurt) ;-D

About that sunday, make it a strawberry milk shake instead and you're on. And super-size that, please. (yum)

@nonegiven #42
Oh you ba-a-a-ad girl, you were cheating with that too! ;-D Hee hee hee hee

@Clemma #44
Because "Honey" does not have the same connotations used on a man or a woman, and so women instinctly shy away from it, even anonymously on the Internet.

@Lisa #47
"If the 4-year-old is actually quoting her mother verbatim (and, as correctly points out, that is far from certain)"
If the kid in question was 9 or 10... But she's not. Well, my experience with 4 year-olds (yours is coming shortly) is that they don't have the vocabulary, never mind the understanding of political correctness nor the mental perception of such subtle interpretative differences, to substitute "heavy" for "fat". They also take everything literally, they only start perceiving figurative meanings some 4-5-6 years later, depending on the kid. And she also didn't make it up, so yeah, I would say that the kid is quoting verbatim.

Re: Lisa #61
"even though they are well aware of what a well-balanced meal looks like, are prone to indulge their grandchildren in ways that they wouldn't indulge themselves and didn't indulge their own children."
Yeah, they tend to do that. Meh. As long as the kids are eating in a very balanced way otherwise, it'll give them pleasure aplenty, create sweet memories, and do no harm whatsoever.

I mean geesh, eating healthily is all very nice, but it's not supposed to be 24/7/365 pennance.

@Girl Scout Leader
Hey, you don't have to pretend. Maple syrup may be a Canadian trademark, but there's plenty of it in New England states!

Re: Zoe #35
Ok, I've read all the posts.

Yes, I think you need to sit them down, but the fact that Megan doesn't know what Kathy is pissed about is a problem. Two things before the sit-down:

1. Is there anything in Cathy's private life that is making her particularly uptight and snarky right now?
2.You do need to let Megan in on Cathy's grudge. In order not to burn your bridges, I suggest the fictitious character approach: "I (or I know someone who) went through this exact same situation with some co-workers/friends/family members before, and it turned out that what the other party was pissed about was... "

Even then, there is no guarantee that the cat will not claw its way out of the bag once the subject matter is on the table... In which case you would have been better off levelling with Megan, and you can't know in advance which is better. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

It may very well be that the two of them never liked each other much to start with, and that the cold war uneasy thruce has come to the end of its lifespan.

Wait until the stressing busy time is past, and see if things don't settle back to normal on their own... If they don't, time for the sit-down. And... what Lisa said (#39) and what Mike said (#61).

Re: Lise Brouillette

Bobaloo, make mine vanilla with LOTS of hot fudge and real whipped cream

@Lise, re: the 4 year old -- it really depends on (a) whether or not the LW is reported what was actually said word-for-word, or is "interpreting" it for us; and (b) what the circumstances were right before it was said (ie, the suggestions that LW was taking the granddaughter to McDonalds or stuffing her with homemade cookies).

So -- while I think there is still cause for concern and the child's father should be aware of the *potential* issues -- I do think there's room to acknowledge that there might be a legitimate "other side to the story" as well.

Still and all, I'd err on the side of caution, just because (as per the discussion) I do find the idea of indoctrinating children into adult body-image issues is a bad, bad, baaaaad idea.

Re: Mike H
You're right that the interpretation might be on the LW's side. My point is that I strongly doubt the child herself "interpreted" anything. Four year-olds simply don't have the capacity to paraphrase.

All orders up!

Mike H, anything for you?

Re: Lise Brouillette, I do have to disagree that young children do not interpret things. They do. I think if you will think waaay back :-) to when your daughter was small you will remember some outrageous and embarrassing things that she said that were perhaps misinterpreted. The famous teacher quote that, "If you don't believe everything's that your child says happened in my classroom, I won't believe everything your child tells me happened at your house." Thankfully, I was not arrested for drugs after having a bit of wine after the DARE officer gave her speech to the class. Although the teacher was quite amused by this discovery and couldn't wait to tell me. I have hundreds of memories of 'interpretations' of things, that are just too hilarious, that my children related in their own special way. Kids Do say the darnedest things.

Re: Penny
Yeah, well again, you're talking about school-aged children. If you do think back yourself, you will remember that there is a HUGE difference between 4 and 7 years old. Millions of synaptic connections more. A four year old is barely out of diapers. Many perfectly normal children don't even speak all that well at that age.

@Lise, definite agreement. If it is the 4-year-old words verbatim, she didn't re-interpret anything, she was simply repeating what she'd heard.

@Bobaloo, I'm a green tea ice cream man most of the time, but I'm not sure how that would work with a strawberry sundae. Maybe ginger or red bean?

Lise, my three year old ,at that time) told her father that her baby brothers REAL father visited that day and brought Bubby a present. In reality the UPS man delivered a package. He was bald- so was my son. The UPS man made a comment about how they both had bald heads. Mike, there was no mention of him being my son's father. (He really wasn't) Or the time she announced that her grandmother was going to cut off Bubby's toes and make toe pudding, after a comment that her Meme made that he was just so sweet she could eat him with a spoon. Even young children interpret what is said differently than intended. Their little r do relay things they hear based on what they know. They have not developed the finer skills such as humor or subtlety.

@Lise -- I think you misunderstood what I meant about substituting "heavy" for "fat." I wasn't suggesting the 4-year-old did that -- I was suggesting the MOTHER did (the mother, not the LW). I completely agree that a 4-year-old isn't likely to have the savvy to switch "heavy" for "fat." But they DO paraphrase -- it's just that when they do, they frequently don't get it right, and they're usually not TRYING to paraphrase. They either heard the statement incorrectly in the first place, or when they went to repeat it, they didn't quite remember it right. So, the points I was trying to make were:

1) Certainly, as others have suggested, it would have been better for Mom to say, "it's important for us to eat right so we can be healthy" instead of "you need to watch what you eat so you don't get heavy." One is about being healthy, one is about not being fat.

2) It's entirely possible that when Jill relayed this comment to her grandmother, she didn't get it quite right or got it out of context. I could just as easily see a scenario where the original conversation was about what the MOTHER was eating and that the MOTHER was watching HER OWN figure, and Jill simply applied it to herself since, like many girls that age, she still wants to be "just like mommy." Again, it would have been better if Mom had said, "I need to watch what I eat so I can be healthy." But you know, we don't always say the exact right things, do we.

Again, I'm doing a LOT of speculation here, but again, I just don't think what I'm speculating is all that far-fetched. LW clearly does not like her ex-DIL, so it's not so far-fetched to believe that she is allowing that dislike to color her interactions with and perceptions of her ex-DIL.

But let me be clear: if Jill's comment was accurate and not taken out of context (either by Jill or the LW), and if the mother is regularly sending a message about the importance of "watching your figure" then I agree whole-heartedly that Jill's mother is a whackadoodle. I'm just not so sure we have a reliable narrator here, and it's actually a double whammy, because the 4-year-old may not have been totally accurate/in context when she relayed the remark to her grandmother, and then the grandmother (who already doesn't like the ex-DIL) extrapolates from there.

The one thing that gives me pause: the LW says that her son says his ex does send this message to their little girl. Again, assuming that LW isn't putting words in her son's mouth (which, of course, is entirely possible), then presumably, we now have a reliable source. But in that case, the person who should be addressing this is THE GIRL'S FATHER, not the LW. And for all we know, he has. But it sounds like the LW doesn't think so and/or doesn't trust her son to do so, since she says he avoids confrontation with his ex. Normally, in a case like this, I would encourage the LW to talk with her son to make sure he understands the possible danger this sets his daughter up for so that he will then step in. But it sounds like she HAS had a conversation about this with him (or else he wouldn't have confirmed that the mother says these things to Jill). At that point, the best she can do is model healthy eating and healthy attitudes toward both food and one's own body for her granddaughter. And that was my advice to her.

I don't know this for a fact, obviously, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the combination of not liking her ex-DIL and her concern for her granddaughter in the wake of the divorce (and possibly having lost a certain amount of "access" to the child, depending on how custody has been arranged and how holidays are being handled, etc.) has turned LW1 into a meddlesome grandmother who is simply never going to believe that the mother is doing anything right with this child. I could be completely wrong about that.

My mother is a truly lovely, intelligent, kind, caring wonderful woman. Both her children love her, and she has a good relationship with both her SIL and DIL. But she is a worry wart. And I have seen what happens when someone makes a truly harmless offhand comment that sends her worry wart head into a whirling dervish of concern. I made a comment recently about not using ONE of the strategies my pediatrician had recommended to get my son to start talking. Mind you, the doctor offered up no fewer than four different strategies, and I was trying them all. But I quickly found that ONE of the strategies he suggested was doing more harm than good, so I decided to stop trying it.

In my mother's worry wart head, what she hears me saying is that I'm no longer listening to the pediatrician, and I'm blowing off the fact that my son is "behind" on his verbal skills. And then she's thinking what is going to happen to her grandson when he still isn't talking when he's 10 because I didn't take this seriously and didn't listen to the pediatrician. And then she just happens to be at a book club meeting that (ironically enough) was held at the home of a retired pediatrician, whom she then pulls aside to talk about her grandson's delayed verbal skills. And next thing I know, I get a lengthy e-mail from my mother telling me all the stuff this retired pediatrician told her, and things I should be doing to test my son's hearing, etc.

Now, as it happens, I didn't simply stop listening to my pediatrician, and I AM taking this seriously. All the things the retired pediatrician told her -- I'm already doing them or have done them. His hearing HAS been tested, but even if it hadn't been, I KNOW he's hearing perfectly fine because he understands and responds to basic commands/sentences/questions. I talked with my mother and reassured her that I am not just blowing this off, that I am actually doing three of the four things my pediatrician suggested, just not the fourth one because it was doing more harm than good, etc., etc., etc.

Now, let's look at the differences here between the situation I just related and what's going on with the LW. This is my mother, and she loves me and I love her, and we really do have a good relationship and she really does think I'm generally a good mom (which is why, when I called her to respond to to her e-mail, the conversation went well, and my mother felt better about what was going on, and everything is fine). And yet, despite the fact that she loves me, respects me and generally thinks I'm a good mom, she STILL managed to "mis-hear" what I said (and there wasn't even a 4-year-old child possibly relaying the information incorrectly in our situation) and allowed her tendency to worry to get herself worked up into a tizzy. Now, take a woman who (perhaps) has a similar "worry wart" tendency, give her an ex-DIL she doesn't like and probably has little contact with, and a 4-year-old granddaughter who may not even have related the comment correctly, and next thing you know, she's sure her 4-year-old is on the express train to eating disorder land, and she's writing to advice columnists asking if she should step in or just let her son handle it.

Again, it may not be anything like that. But I don't think my speculation is all that far-fetched. In the absence of hearing the other side of the story (heck, I'd even just be happy to hear the SON's side of this story, never mind the ex-DIL's!), there's no way to know. So, my advice stands: stay out of it and just model healthy eating and attitudes toward food and body image.

Re: Mike H (#80)

Whatever works for you, man! Never heard of green tea ice cream, but they're coming out with all sorts of flavors these days to suit every taste. You got it.

*gasp*

You've never... *heard*... of green tea ice cream?!? Oh, Bobaloo, get thee to an Asian restaurant toot suite!

Re: Mike H
Tout de suite. ;-D