Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - I'm not sure what advice you seek. You have laid your cards on the table and tried to reason with your husband who has made it clear as day that he doesn't care. In his mind, he makes more, and that's what matters (I guess he forgot the "partnership" part of marriage!) and he is not going to change. So, are you willing to live like that forever? Or are you willing to work harder than your husband, resenting it the whole way, because he has other good qualities? Only you can answer that.

The only workable suggestions I have would be that he hire a cleaner to clean up his mess. You do not say you have any kids so if the cleaning were done by a maid, your chores would be more manageable. Or you could explore finding a different job with a higher salary or less work hours. But would you still resent your husband, or would you see it as an acceptable tradeoff?

LW2 - Ah, well, good thing you wrote into an advice column. Tell these people yourself, you passive-aggressive complainy-pants.

And by the way, I find poop to be very interesting and I'm not alone. I would share more details about it if it were socially acceptable!

Since these people are unlikely to a) read Annies, b) see themselves in your letter, and c) desire to change their behaviour in d) a way you consider acceptable, you should probably just skip that site. Instead, give them a call to ask how they are doing. You can hang up on them if they give you more details than you are comfortable with.

LW1 - suggest you live apart. Stay married but each of you live in your own space, be it apartment or condo or house, and then you can keep it the way you like. It doesn't sound like you have kids which would complicate the situation. If living alone appeals, then live alone and get together when you want to be together.

LW1 - the main thing wrong with your situation is that your husband is paying for someone to do his chores, while you have to do yours. Tell him that just as he's paying people to mow the lawn, clean the gutters, etc., etc., he needs to pay someone to do the housecleaning and all of the other things you're doing. This is totally reasonable; he's the one with the money. And also he needs to pay his share of the food and household supplies. It's time to stop presenting things in terms of your "feelings," hoping your feeling as you do will sway him. Instead, present it as a requirement, and a condition for staying married.

Kai Archie's suggestion is also worth considering.

Kai: If LW1's husband really doesn't care how neat his living area is or what he eats, your idea might solve the problem. Let him live with his slobbiness, and let her live in the neat environment she wants and deserves. However, I doubt it's just a mismatch in their standards, because he's willing to pay people to do some of the chores. What he seems to want, and what he's getting, is a grossly underpaid servant. Real partners devote equal effort to their lives together, regardless of how the outside world values their talents. This "good, intelligent man" sounds like a passive-aggressive jerk. A real man doesn't sit on his ass while his wife does all the work.

Re LW1: Just a thought--I wonder if, instead of going on a house cleaning strike, she's considered telling her husband that she's considering quitting her job so that she can devote all her time to maintaining the home. Maybe once he realizes that he'd be on the hook for 100% of the household expenses, he might be more receptive to the alternative of hiring a part-time housekeeper.

I admit to not knowing the facts, so what I'm about to say may not have a factual basis...and it won't be popular...but...here goes:

Is it not possible that hubby feels, after years of acquiring skills, education and working hard, while watching wife not work similarly, that he wants to reap the rewards of his labour and take it easy when he can, and that he does not feel it unfair that she work a bit harder than he?

He might resent working hard only to be left living life at the lowest common denominator.

I see this all the time. It astounds me that, to this day, young women still are not pursuing careers with the same vigor. A large number (no,not all) still want "jobettes" to hold them over just until they marry and have kids.

Jpp--
Just because the wife earns less doesn't mean she hasn't worked similarly to acquire skills and education. Social workers, for example, aren't paid particularly well, but they have at least 4-year degrees, and often Master's degrees. Same with teachers. Lawyers engaged in public service also don't make much money, but it doesn't mean they don't work hard. How hard you work at a job, unfortunately, does not always correlate to how well you get paid. She implied they both work full-time, so there's really nothing in the letter to imply that she considers her work a "jobette."
And even if she is working below her potential, and that is his attitude, he'd still be wrong. Just because someone WANTS to sit around and not contribute to the housework doesn't mean that person is entitled to do so. These things need to be negotiated. Maybe she could stand to relax her standards (although it doesn't sound like she needs things to be spotless" but he needs to respect her feelings and contributions enough to actually be in a partnership with her. How much you make (or even how much housework you do) does not define how much value you bring to a relationship.
There may be situations where a spouse would be justified in thinking the way you've outlined. However, the spouses still need to communicate and come to an agreement regarding their expectations, and not just assume that it's only "fair" for the lower-earning partner to pick up the slack. Resentment is toxic to relationships, and it should be avoided, no matter who is technically "right."

LW1-
In all fairness, how much who pays for bills is expected to be divited on a pro-rate basis according to respective income. Right now, it is.

In all fairness, the amount of houselhold chores is also expected to be divided on a pro-rata basis according to respective work hours. Right now, it isn't.

Considering your hours are the same, the amount of leisure time you both have, once working hours and household chores are done, should also be the same. It's not fair that you should come home to twice the work compared to him. It's ESPECIALLY not fair that some of the work should be dumped on you by his own carelessness.

Can't go on strike? What Jeanne said.

And if your income is so low, have you considered upgrading your skills so you can land a better job? Ditch the garden and start doing only your own laundry (for instance) to save some time you need for part-time studies. Enlist his rightful cooperation for the rest. He "pays"? Let him pay for housekeeping help then. That doesn't mean you no longer do your share, only that he pays for his, which right now he is not doing. The improved income will be at both your advantage anyway, not just yours, because your share of the bills will increase proportionally to your income.

He reads the Annies faithfully? I hope not just in the paper, where not only he doesn't have the commentary, but where the paper editors treat it like a filler and chop it down even further than the Annies themselves do. That's why I started reading it online!

The Annies were sensible for once. If that is not enough to wake him up, I suggest a marriage counsellor, but if he doesn't listen to the Annies, whose advice he allegedly respects, he's not likely to listen to the counsellor. Perhaps if the counsellor is a man?

LW2-
Unfortunately, because they cannot see who they talk to, some people treat online communications as if they were alone and doing a version of talking to themselves. There are real hands belonging to real people behind every post - be it on FaceBook, CaringBridge... or BTL.

Perhaps you should tell these people how you feel yourself, instead of writing in to an advice columnist. They're not likely to read the Annies and, even if they do, it won't necessarily dawn on them that this applies them. For you to bring the problem here does a social service by advising the public in general, but it does nothing to fix it in your own life.

While I agree with LW2 that the postings on CaringBridge about the patient's intimate medical conditions may be embarrasing to the patient, and probably should be limited to less personal information about their progress and recovery, I agree totally with the BTL posters here that the families and friends who post there probably have other things to do rather than read advice columns. Why write to the Annies about this -- talk PERSONALLY to the people who are posting on CaringBridge and tell THEM how it may make the patient feel. They are probably so happy to report any progress their loved one is making, that they don't realize it may be humilitating to them to find out that other people know all about their bodily functions in that manner.

LW1 - Wow, Annie, great advice! Tell him he has to pay for a maid. Yeah, I'm sure he'll grab his wallet and pay immediatly! In the letter, she clearly states that he feels the housecleaning his "her" job and he only pays for "his" chores.

Honestly, I like kai's suggestion of staying married but living apart. My best friend's parents do that. Her mother just couldn't take the endless clutter and him blowing money on useless stuff. So she told him she was moving out but wanted to stay married. He was, of course, livid at first. But he calmed down and now they've been living apart but married for 10 years. It works for them.

Jpp - What Laura said is right. There are a lot of careers out there that don't pay based on how hard you work. I have a career, not a joblette, but I don't make a lot of money at all. I can't afford much. But I work hard! I don't get paid to sit on my butt and twiddle my thumbs. I chose my career not based on how much money I would make but because I love what I do. Sure, I wish I could make more money, but I know if I switched careers I would not be happy.

Besides, marriage is an equal partnership. Your rank should not be determined on how much money you make. My mother makes waaaaay less than my father does and he has never - not once - ever made her feel bad for that. I have girlfriends that make more than their husbands and they have never made their husbands feel bad for that. It's not even brought up.

LW1--"Other than this, he's a good man, intelligent, fun, and he makes me laugh." Yeah, he sounds like a real gem and your letter didn't sound very funny to me. While your husband accuses you of being a clean freak, he's a penny pincher. In the back of his mind, he's accounted for every dime you've spent on the marriage versus how much he spends and has decided that you're going to make up for your shortfall by being his indentured servant. While your husband may not be doing this consciously the result is the same nonetheless. While he sits around on his duff using his excess funds to pay people to cut the grass and do maintenance on the house, you're killing yourself trying to pick up after a pig who can't muster the common courtesy to place a dish in the sink or a garment in the hamper. This is a classic case of passive aggression. The two of you need marriage counseling pronto. In the meantime tell your intelligent fun husband that all you want for your birthday and Christmas this year is a Molly Maid twice a week. If he doesn't comply, then maybe you're too tired from all the housework to fool around in the bedroom.

LW2--Some people have no common sense whatsoever. The advent of social networking and the ease at which one can share the minutia of their lives with half the world has made people lose all sense of boundaries. In my opinion, some websites are solutions waiting for a problem. My advice to you is to get off CaringBridge.org and do things the old fashioned way. Pick up the phone. You won't know about Johnny's solid stools if you're not on the computer reading about it. Moreover, most people's manners and sense of dignity and decorum seem to manifest in real life interactions where they will be able to read tone of voice or body language and censor squeamish details or curtail the amount of personal information they offer in face to face or telephone conversations. Just because you have a computer or a SmartPhone doesn't mean you have to use it for everything.

Zoe, LW1 wanted only the Annie's opinion, because she believes her otherwise intelligent husband will respect their opinion.

IF LW is reading here -- tell your hubby to that more earning power = more clout at home is an outdated belief. One'. Earning power comes and goes over the course of a lifetime, particularly so these days, often through no fault of a hard-working individual.

If he were disabled, if his company were sold, if he were laid -- or, conversely, if YOU inherited big bucks, won the lottery or got a huge promotion by way of a big achievement at work, you could end up the major breadwinner. If he continues to think as he does, you'd be justified in saying that your marriage is a luxury you, yourself, cannot afford on your salary, because the mental and emotional cost of being treated as menial labor are taking too great a toll on your relationship -- that you'd be better off seeing each other from separate residences.

Re: Zoe, 1- i agree in part with what you said about telling the posters that they are posting tmi. having said that, my doctor knows not to release any information to my family without my prior approval. my family knows that i cherish my privacy in certain areas. posting information online about a good solid stool is ok if johnny doesn't mind, but if johnny has a reasonable expectation of privacy, it's out of line. if i were the patient i would be livid. i know there is nothing shameful about defecation, but i wouldn't do it where people are watching...and it is not a topic for conversation.
if you want all of your intimate personal functions posted online for all the world to see, go right ahead. but i'm opting out of having any information posted.

OK but does she visit him in the filthy house? Or does he come over to her place and trash it? Would he visit with her, make love? Or does he just want her to cook his dinner?

Re: Zoe

"And by the way, I find poop to be very interesting and I'm not alone. I would share more details about it if it were socially acceptable!"

I talk about poop too often. Usually dog related, but still, too often. We could start an organisation - PTA (Poop Talkers Anonymous). ;-D

My dog likes to eat cat-poo and is always sniffing around the park to see what she can find. She once came out of the bushes and I thought she had a bright green plastic bag in her mouth. I ran after her and she wolfed it down

<<<GULP ~ GULP ~ GULP >>>

I did my best to reach down her throat and get it out. It turns out it was a pair of childs underpants, abandoned in the bushes after a child had an accident of the Number Two variety. I had to scrub my hands at least ten times to feel even close to clean again.

We had to wait 7 days to see those pants again!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Re: LW1 and agreeing with #10 - Michelle: I never understood why married couples keep separate accounts and/or divide their bills according to their income. In my many years of marriage and my (financial) "sickness and health" my husband and I never kept our finances separate. We went through 2 years of my unemployment and 1 year of his being out of work. Currently I make more than he does, but it never occurred to either of us to start splitting the bills accordingly.
In my opinion, marriage is based on trust, and if you don't trust your earnings to your partner, then whom do you trust?

Jpp: WTF??? “after years of acquiring skills, education and working hard, while watching wife not work similarly”
Where did you get * that * from the letter?? She said they work “comparable hours” but she makes half. How dare you assume she's an uneducated, lazy woman. How sexist. I am a licensed attorney who chose not to practice law. I have a job I LOVE, but unfortunately, don't make a lot of money at. My boyfriend has his Master's in physical therapy. He works for a private company and has a percentage of ownership in it. He's also 6 years older and has been in the working field longer than me. He makes double what I make. Just like this LW. I work my a$$ off at my job, there's just not a lot of money to be made. I would be mightily offended if someone made the gross assumption that I don't work hard or am uneducated (or that somehow these are automatically linked together) because my bf makes more money. Then again, according to you, I'm probably just waiting until he puts a ring on it and I get knocked up and fat. Every girl's dream!

Ugh. I hope you're just a troll and no one's this ignorant.

Zoe and Miss Pasko:

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk!!!

If you start P.T.A., make sure Dr. Oz is a charter member, he made poop talk fashionable.

LW1-Hang on, I think this is partially your doing. Your husband doesn't mind living in a pigsty because he's NEVER THERE!!!!! He spends his time off work at the golf course, with his friends, or with the TV. If you spent your off-hours doing yoga, bowling, playing bridge, mountain biking, playing pool, painting, taking photos, etc, you probably wouldn't care about the mess either. There are hobbies you could take up that wouldn't put a huge dent in your paycheck.
As for food bills, here's a tip; bring lunch to work, and buy enough food to feed yourself. Cook only the foods you like. Put the difference away so you can build some savings for your retirement. You didn't say how old you are, but I have to wonder if your husband's finances would provide for you if he dies suddenly
I also have to wonder why you're married to this guy. If he's never home and has such a disregard and lack of concern for you, what are you getting out of it?

Jpp:

Well, SOMEONE has to do those jobettes. Unless you don't care about cleanliness, restaurants, groceries, and car washes anymore.

LW1 - I hope getting that off your chest helped because nothing is going to change. It really isn't. As far as the yard work goes (and other stuff), if he's willing to pay for it that's his perogative. Do you really care who mows the lawn or cleans the gutters or fixes the whatever? No as long as it gets fixed. Either figure out ways to work around it or ignore it but this is the guy you married. You married a guy who's not too concerned about household chores and he married a martyr.


LW2 - Did it occur to you that maybe Johnny and Mary aren't in comas and actually know what's being said? Maybe Johnny said, "Oh hell, who cares. Just tell them I'm having good bm's". That's what I'd do :-)


LW3 - OMG!! STDs!! Thank you so much for that PSA. Thank God you thought of that. You're a genius!! Who knew, huh? It's not like we hear about those every freakin' day. Thanks or coming forward, Dr. Obvious.

IK:

I think most people go into marriage wanting to be partners and wanting to trust the other, but sometimes the other person proves themselves unworthy of it and you just have to work around it or get out.

Re: IK
Re LW#1----Totally agree. I can never understand why one would enter a marriage and not consider ALL monies that come in as 'our' money rather than 'your' money and 'my' money. It seems to be increasingly common to keep separate accounts and track everything to make sure your spouse didn't accidentally get a nickel that belongs to you.
My husband always made more money than I did. It had nothing to do with the amount of education each of us had, because I actually had more than he did; and it had nothing to do with how hard each of us worked; it just had to do with the trend of paying women less than men. But our paychecks went into a JOINT account and became OUR money. Each month we each took a certain amount (the same amount for each of us) to be used as our indivicual spending money, with the stipulation that we could do as we wanted with it--------no criticism from the other person allowed. (If one of us wanted to flush it down the toilet we could.)
Now, the LW really hasn't much chance of getting her husband to agree that he is not being fair, and the fact that the Annies say he 'should' do such-and-such is totally irrelevant. He isn't going to.
So, her options are limited to putting up with it or leaving. And since she has much less money, her financial situation in maintaining a house by herself might be difficult (unless they have investments or savings, which she could get half of, and which would tick him off greatly and be really funny); he, on the other hand, will just hire a housekeeper to do EVERYTHING, not just the stuff he is currently responsible for. He will still be fine financially.
If I were she, I would still choose to leave, and I sympathize with her; but she really doesn't have much choice, and even if every one of us agreed he is being unfair, unless HE comes to see it, what's the point of writing the Annies?
(And by the way----------anyone care to make bets on which sex Jpp might be?)

LW1: While couples can work out their finances in a variety of ways, it doesn't sound like your current arrangement is *mutual*, it sounds more like he's decided that since he earns more money that he gets to decide for *both* of you what the equitable arrangement of budget and housework is. That's not right.

I'm not sure HOW you have approached this issue with him, but the fact is that you aren't happy with the current arrangement, and a loving partner would WANT to talk things out and offer some compromise. Maybe you won't get everything you want, but maybe there is somewhere in the middle the two of you can meet.

Otherwise, you have to ask yourself -- if he won't compromise at all, if he doesn't care that you are unhappy with the current arrangements, why would you want to continue living with someone so inconsiderate?

LW2: Count me in among those who is happy to know that someone is recovering but has ZERO interest in specifics about bodily functions. Wait, not zero interest, NEGATIVE interest. I don't wanna know, and the fastest way to get me to STOP paying attention to your CaringBridge site will be to post about your poop. Just sayin'.

LW3: Dr. Obvious saved my life, Rick, so cut her some slack. Without her reminders of the dangers of smoking while on the cellphone while driving without a seatbelt, I would have been in serious trouble.

For the better part of caring bridge information about MEDICAL issues of the patients--and the day to day accomplishments necessary for their getting better, maybe a poop star IS important. My neighbor had a kidney transplant in Aug. YES. It was important that he peed. And the color of the urine. Because the old kidneys are not removed immediately, all information is pertinent. If the kidney had been damaged physically or infected, etc they would have been taken out during the first surgery. Why, I am not sure. It was done at MAYO Rochester. So I don't doubt the best doctors in the world did it.

Pruess over the info you don't want to hear about. This includes well wishes and the prayers invoked by the same well wishers. Usually these sites are to avoid the repetitive phone calls to all by posting 1 place. They are not meant for everyone to read, esp if you want to be critical. Heck, Aunt Mildred's Christmas letter can do the same thing. It is sharing of information.

My swimming partner and her family kept all posted the same way--upon the birth of their grandson at 24 weeks gestation. And the next 2 months until his death. Every day the poop and pee made us cheer.
So skip over it, like the same with posts here you have issues with. Just skip it.
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LW1: Sit down with the 'pig in the house'. Tell him hired help is coming. Whether it is YOU or someone else, cleaning barns or pigstyes are going to cost him. Figure what you do, ask a service to give a quote on staff coming in to do the same. Divide up what is HIS and what is YOUR mess. You cover your cost or do your own cleaning so that hired staff takes care of his crap.

What is interesting is to toss a few things into the washer to make a load. Hope it is his good white shirts for work and his red sweatshirt.

This is passive agressive behavior but he started it when he demeaned you to hired status. His control over you. Since you are the cook, make foods YOU like, new recipes with ingredients you know he hates. (My husband hates GARLIC but does not have allergy reaction, JUST CAUSE. He does not know what garlic I put into food. And it tastes good. I am the one with food allergies and so i make sure that is not the issue.)

You could also get totes to toss his mess into--garbage and dirty laundry--let him do it.

Bet his mommy would still wipe his butt if he was at home. My age 8-10 all my boys did laundry. And hung it on the lines outside. And my grandchildren at 5, 9 do it. And pick up. When my boys clothes hit the floor and not picked up, it went into Mary's Place box--homeless shelter in Minneapolis. They never got to take the item back. OH, when taking church youth trips there to work, they had to take the boxes with their clothes. Called PICK IT UP OR IT IS GONE.

My middle son lived in a house with 5 other guys in college. 3 of them were from 'home' and 2 were strangers. BUT the house set rules of how it had to be cleaned and what days such and such was done. Including toilets. So as they went along in their week, they kept it neat so on THE DAY there was not much to be done. 10 years later, the impact is still with him. Flush, wipe up messes, put things away.
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Miss Pasko, Allie, the German Shorthair loved to steal things, esp the baby socks. And you would wait till you say it come through in the yard. She goes through the trash in the bathroom or kitchen (separated for recycling) and picks out her paper towels and kleenex. So my yard pick up has alot of those too. She is not into the dog chew things--nor chooses things other than paper stuff now. Socks got bigger. It was her connection to the baby and the sock was the easiest to steal. Allie turns 11 in a couple months. Guess she could have been a trash dumper or worse.
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Back to the lady with man-child. After 37 years I STILL have my own checking account. In another state I grew up in. Oh, we have the account where his check goes it, IN MY PURSE TOO. And the household account comes out of the cupboard when we need something big from that. Having divided checking accounts allows money into each for different things. I also have my ONLINE purchase checking account. Anytime an online purchase is made, I don't use credit cards or debit, I put money into what I call my EBAY-PAYPAL account. So that online purchases are not looked at as no big deal. I print receipts and log them in, etc. I know where the money from the house goes, exactly.

Re: Jpp
REMARK # 6.
And when they decide to start a family, I hope HE gets pregnant first. Then he can have first hand experience of HOW MUCH IS INVOLVED. GEE, like picking up a magazine and placing an order.
Emotional worth counts for a heck of a lot--I can hear him saying--WELL IT WAS MY SPERM. Well, she could have gotten that from she wanted to as well.
A phrase heard often in the OB wing I worked in for 16 years--when the father of the baby--maybe many times--had all the answers as long as the MOTHER was following his orders.
WORTHLESS AS TITS ON THE BOAR. YEP.
This husband has set his wife's self worth at barely zero. No matter her education, her community activity, her payback to the humane race and not least her education. He may be able to sit in an engineers office, but if he can't get out of a 2 open ended grocery bag, his larger than life is a mite.
In my husband's job he runs across alot of pompousness. And just waits for them to hang themselves. He has to sign off on every single thing going on a unit (half million dollar unitI). His arguements with many a more highly educated, higher paid engineer who says IF YOU DO IT RIGHT the square peg CAN go into the round hole.
If common sense does not prevail, the Emporor STILL does not have any clothes on. No matter how many times the butt kissers tell you he does.

Re: Mike H - Well, there you have it. I guess we (well, you anyway) need her afterall. I just didn't know.

@Jpp -- I'm not going to flame you because even though I disagree with what you said, I think people may have somewhat misinterpreted what you were trying to say -- plus I want to give you credit for making a point of stating that you don't know if this is what is going on, and that you are just making a stab in the dark. If you're still out there, please tell me if my interpretation of what you said is correct. I don't believe you were suggesting that the LW doesn't work hard or doesn't work the same hours. I believe what you were suggesting is that perhaps LW has not taken the steps needed to acquire the skills that would allow her to either get a promotion (and a raise) at her current job or to get a better-paying job elsewhere, and that in the meantime, the husband DID make the effort to acquire the skills and/or education to get a better-paying job, and he's frustrated that LW won't do the same. This is not the same as suggesting that the LW doesn't work hard. So, for example, let's say LW and hubby met 10 years ago, and both of them were flipping burgers at a fast-food joint. Hubby starts going to night school (or what have you) and gets a degree in a more lucrative field, lands a job in that field and leaves the fast-food joint to go make double what he used to make flipping burgers. Meanwhile, LW continues to flip burgers. This doesn't mean LW isn't working hard. It means that, for whatever reason, she has chosen not to make the effort to acquire new skills that would allow her to make more money.

Now, assuming that I have interpreted that correctly, the fact of the matter is that if hubby is thinking this way, he shouldn't. Aside from the fact that there may be any number of reasons his wife hasn't had the same opportunity to improve her employment/salary situation (for example -- it's awful tough to go to night school if, when you come home from work, you have NO help with the housework), it still comes down to the fact that marriage is a partnership. When my husband and I met, he made more money than I did. A couple of years into our marriage, we moved, I got a new job and wound up making significantly more than he did. Then a few years later, we moved again, and he's been making double what I make ever since. At no time have we "kept score" as to who makes the greater financial contribution.

As for women taking on "jobettes" that will tide them over until they get married and have children... I'm sure this happens, but I'm also pretty sure it's not happening with any sort of regularity, as you suggest. When I was in college 20 years ago, I had a friend who was majoring in education so she could become a teacher, but her real interest was in getting her "MRS." I had to at least give her credit for being honest -- she was there to find a husband so she could get married and have children, and she made no bones about it. Unfortunately for her, she didn't get her "MRS" -- but fortunately she DID get her degree in education, and she did get a job as a teacher (and I hope we can agree that being a teacher, though it doesn't pay as well as some other jobs, is an honest-to-goodness full-time job and not a "jobette.") But she was literally the ONLY woman I knew in college who felt that way. Everyone else was very busy pursuing a degree in order to pursue a career. I didn't know a single woman who was looking for a "jobette" to tide her over until she found a husband and had children. And that was 20 years ago.

Having said all of that, I have seen quite the opposite happen. Nearly every single one of my female friends who went on to law school and became attorneys eventually quit to become full-time mothers. In at least one case, she spent more time in law school (three years) than she did as a lawyer (two years) before having a baby and deciding to be a stay-at-home mom. I think we can agree that being an attorney is hardly a "jobette." I have yet to see any of those former attorneys go back to work (but their kids are still young -- probably the oldest is maybe 10 years old, if that). I also don't hear their husbands complaining about it.

Of Poop and Caringbridge:

I respect everyone's desire to not read about poop, I do, but please do NOT bring this up with the families who are posting this information on Caringbridge. Not only do they have better things to worry about than reading advice columnists -- they also have WAY MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to worry about than whether they might be offending someone when they are writing about what is going on with their sick loved one. For a lot of these people, something as "gross" as a "good, solid stool" takes on the luster of a 40K diamond, when the difference between one stool and another can literally be a matter of life and death. Is it TMI to post this for all friends and family to see? Maybe, but honestly, I am NOT going to bother the mother of a 10-year-old boy who is battling with cancer to tell her that she is grossing me out. Seriously. And when it's a matter of life and death -- as it frequently is on Caringbridge -- I can assure you that most of the sick loved ones who are being written about don't care that mom or wife or sister or whomever is sharing this information. Why? Because they're a whole lot more concerned with living through all this.

Due to my volunteer work with a charity (it happens to be a cancer-related charity), I've spent a lot of time on Caringbridge. I am sorry that some you are grossed out. But honestly, deal with it. DO NOT BOTHER THESE PEOPLE ABOUT THIS! Yes, I'm shouting, and I know that's really rude, but I feel that strongly about this.

For the Poop Talkers Anonymous group (I'm betting the "other" PTA will NOT appreciate this!): As the mother of a six-month-old child, I have learned the importance of poop talk. My husband, nanny and I are always discussing whether or not "Sammy" has pooped. And, since him pooping or not is one of the primary keys to whether we have a good day or a bad day with him, it is vital information. And the grandmothers have figured this out, too, so it's not uncommon for one of them to call me up, and one of the first questions is, "has Sammy pooped yet today?" And yes, we've been known to go into detail about just what the poop looked like, as it does actually give us some information about how he's doing.

Having said all of that, I should note that I reserve all this poop talk for the people who ARE interested in it -- the nanny, my husband, the grandmothers. I don't generally share it with anyone else. I'm only sharing it here (this once) because of the "poop controversy." I promise I will not be giving regular poop updates. :)

DOH! That's 40C, as in 40 carats -- not sure where that K came from!

@Lisa, agreed, no need to bother the families with my lack of desire to read about poop. I just hope that people do realize that there will be a not-insignificant number of people who therefore choose NOT to follow the loved one's medical progress on such a website, though, if the information is as detailed or graphic as all that.

My support, caring, and affection for a friend or family member dealing with a serious health crisis is completely unrelated to their bowel movements.

@chris -- you are so right that people who post stuff online frequently would be uncomfortable sharing that same stuff in a face-to-face or phone conversation. I would only caution that for a lot of people who use Caringbridge, they just don't have the time or energy to be having individual conversations, which is why they use the site -- they get to tell their story once, and then everyone who knows and loves them can log in and read (or not) at their leisure. If everyone who is grossed out by some of the details in these posts starts calling them, it will basically negate the whole point of using the Caringbridge site. Having said that, I'm not suggesting that no one should ever call someone who has a Caringbridge site. But be prepared for that person to hardly ever take your call, and when they do take your call, they'll be too worn out to really talk. If you're calling because you want to lend a hand in some fashion or offer support in a more personal way, that's terrific. But if you're calling because you just don't want to be grossed out anymore? Not so much.

When the BTL has discussed Facebook, Twitter, etc., I have many times said that there is no one on the face of this earth who is so interesting to me that I need or want to know that they are "going to lunch now" and "going to the bathroom now," and "just got back from the grocery store," etc. I believe there's a whole lot of "over sharing" going on, and I believe people really do need to learn what is and isn't appropriate to be "publishing." But I give a pass to the people who are on Caringbridge. They are "over sharing" for a reason. It's not simply the whim of some self-indulgent idiot who thinks his poop is really that interesting. It's someone who is watching a loved one fight to stay alive. It's just different. I really hope people can understand that.

OK, I promise I will stop ranting about this.

@Mike H -- fair enough.

LW1, why not do a free half hour consultation with a divorce lawyer who could tell you how much spousal support your husband would pay you if you had enough of his sheets, and left? Then she could decide (1) yes, I'd prefer to live alone, on my salary and my alimony, or (2) she's going to show him how much he'd have to pay to have a woman not live with him, then he can decide if he'd miss her, or if he'd rather have a happier spouse and a cleaning service.
My husband is a divorce lawyer: he has stopped a number of divorces by suggesting that each party contribute a percentage of their income. Each spouse can put in 60% of their salary towards household expenses, for example, or the higher earner can contribute a larger percentage so that each party feels they have some independence and some spending money. He's done as much as any marriage counselor, IMHO, especially when finances are an issue.

Re: Kitty
Personally, if anyone would divulge information like that about me while I was in recovery, I would not only be humiliated but stinkingly mad when I found out (and, trust me, I would), and they'd get the very rough edge of my potty mouth. That's treating adults like infants or animal pets - "Ooooh, baby had a nice big burp and then a nice big poop today!"

@Kai Archie
Your suggestion has merit in principle, but in practice it is not one that is often workable, as it defeats the purpose of married life - a life in common. In this specific case, you're also not taking into consideration an important fact: given her income, her level would drop a few notches. All this because he insist on punishing her for making less than him? The whole point of being married being to put things in common so to make it easier for each other, she might as well divorce outright, and start looking for a man who will put value on HER as a human being, not solely on her paycheck.

@IK
Ideally, the money that the wife and the husband make should be pooled, bills paid and then the remainder divided equally - because, in an "ideal'" relationship, it is to be assumed that they both work equally hard, or as much as they both can, regardless of the money they generate. Which may fluctuate, depending on health issues and economical or job market situations.

If you "never understood why married couples keep separate accounts", then I will infer that you had the immense luck of finding one of these rare, almost unheard of, ideal partnerships. Unfortunately, with so many people (both men and women) being cheap and petty, it doesn't work that way in most cases. Money is one of the top causes for divorce.

@jpp
The woman works hours comparable to his at her job and then comes home to a full shift of chores as if she were a housewife and you think she's LAZY? Thank you very much for inferring that housework doesn't count as work.

Other things you say that put things in the same bag where it doesn't belong -
1. A jobbette is just as much work as a big career. You don't get paid more because you work more - in fact, it's often the other way around.
2. Education and paycheck are not always related.
a) Do you know how much a garbage collector, a plumber or a construction worker makes, compared to a secretary?
b) In this economy, do you know how many people with degrees work flipping burgers or drive a cab?

And BTW, the reason why so many women lack ambition in their choice of a job and opt for a jobette instead of a "career" is because women are socialised to put family ahead of career. Show me a woman who puts in the long hours a doctor must, and I'll show you a woman who's being accused of neglecting her family - if she has one.

But when she chooses not to do that and have a job that doesn't interefere with her family's needs instead, then she gets slammed and penalised because she earns less money. Be darned if you do, be darned if you don't, you can't win. (CHORUS: And people call me negative and a hyperfeminist when I say nothing in the mentalities has changed. Yawn.)

@Lisa #28: Look at you, coming in here with your “logic” and “reasoning” and “calmness” and “two sideness.” This is the BTL, not the… rational place! Take your feel goodery back to where you came from.
My sarcasm usually doesn't translate well in writing, so I'll stop and be serious. Your post was really well written and offered insight into where Jpp may have been coming from. It's an interesting perspective that, without knowing all the facts, could very well be true. I appreciate you taking the time to explain his/her post and making sense out of it. I was all riled up from his/her (I shouldn't assume it's a man) post, but I completely understand what s/he was saying. So thanks.

LW1: I'd be surprised if your husband changed just because of what the Annies said, but I hope for your sake he does. My wife and I share in all of the household work, inside and out, until it's done, and we can both enjoy some relaxing time. She and I don't spend money frivilously, but we get what we need, including some money to spend as we wish. But I don't get more, just because I make more. She needs to be happy too.
Perhaps your husband will realize that a happy and satisfied wife, is more important than him having money and time to golf, and you don't get what you need.
But I would suggest to other women not yet married, that if this is how your boyfriend is before you get married, then work it out before you get married, or expect him to be like this forever.