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Be Well
This will be my last column as Dear Margo. I have been giving advice for 15 years — first as Dear Prudence and then under my own name. I have been writing for newspapers for 45 years. The time feels right to retire from deadline journalism. I …Read more.
When Things Don't Look Quite Right
Dear Margo: I'm 60, and my boyfriend is a few years younger. He recently moved in with me. His job requires him to meet with people after their workday. I know he really is doing this on some nights, because I have seen people enter his workplace. …Read more.
Play It as It Lays
Dear Margo: My boyfriend (of more than three and a half years) and I are at a crossroads in our lives. We're both in a master's program, and up until now we've been very serious and committed to our relationship. However, last week he brought up …Read more.
Unwarranted Guilt
Dear Margo: I am married with two almost-teenagers. We aren't rich, but we're comfortable. I have a cousin who has two children. One is near my children's age. This one has spent summers with us for years, and we have taken him on almost every …Read more.
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When the Past Winds Up in the Present
Dear Margo: My husband and I have been married for 10 years, and for the most part, things have been good. Now, that has all changed. Through a family member, I found out some disturbing things about my husband, his past and his beyond-dysfunctional family. Apparently, he was forced (as a preteen) to watch his gay cousin masturbate, and it continued into his teen years, with my husband becoming more involved with the gay cousin — helping, masturbating himself, etc. He also had a sexual relationship with a female cousin well into his teen years. And as if that were not enough, supposedly he and another brother molested their younger sister.
I confronted my husband about all of this. In the beginning, he lied and denied it. Later, he came clean about everything but vehemently denied molesting his sister.
It's been almost a year since this news came to me, and I am still living in shock and disgust. Shortly after I discovered this, I sought counseling because I was having a hard time functioning on a daily basis. That came to a standstill when the counselor wanted to start couples counseling and my husband refused. So I am left with many questions and much confusion and shame. He, on the other hand, feels everything is OK.
Am I dwelling on this too much? With the exception of just a few females in the family, no one else in the extended family knows anything. — Struggling
Dear Strug: Your husband was clearly the victim of abuse. If he molested his sister (a disputed fact), it would be consistent with abusers having been abused themselves. However, because he admitted to everything — but denied the sister's mistreatment — I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially because you say things were fine until a family member gave you the background.
His unwillingness to get counseling indicates he has come to terms with his past, and it sounds as though he is functioning well. I suggest that you continue counseling, however, because you are the one who is troubled. I believe in rehabilitation and reform and the statute of limitations. — Margo, painfully
Conflicted and Ambivalent
Dear Margo: I need help. I am married to a great guy, but I frequently find him annoying. (This feeling did not surface until after we got married). The poor guy tries very hard to avoid upsetting me, but he fails miserably. I am sometimes disgusted with myself for the nasty and mean things I say to him when I am angry. We stay married because I cannot find a reason to leave him. However, I think staying with him only makes the two of us miserable (he disagrees).
On top of that, I want to move back to my home state, which is just a few hundred miles from our current home. My husband likes where we are now. Should I just move without him? There are several practical reasons for going back. I feel trapped. I am not happy if I stay, but it just feels wrong to leave. I do love him, but I do not feel I need to have him in my life to be happy. — Going in Circles
Dear Go: Yours is a letter in which one does not have to read between the lines; one can just read the lines. You are seriously ambivalent about what to do. Finding this "great guy" annoying is a cover for deeper discontents. You are not living where you want to be. You're feeling trapped. You snipe at him and then feel awful — but you can't stop doing it. You are unhappy and believe you do not need a mate to be happy. Resentment certainly has to figure in.
Were I you, I would have a trial separation, and the time apart will likely give you the answer about how you want to live. Marriage is not for everyone, and a guy doesn't have to be a bum for a woman to want to call it a day. Not every divorce need be tied to abusive, addictive or criminal behavior. Good luck sorting this out. — Margo, experimentally
Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers' daughter. All letters must be sent via the online form at www.creators.com/dearmargo. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.
COPYRIGHT 2013 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM 
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40 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1: Man, this letter is disturbing. And Margo's answer is just.. dismissive and bad.
I have a really hard time accepting the statement "His unwillingness to get counseling indicates he has come to terms with his past, and it sounds as though he is functioning well." If the LW's husband was truly "functioning well", HE would have told his wife about this before the wedding and NOT have denied it when confronted with the facts. He did neither of those things.
It's also curious to me that the LW hears about this from another "family member". Just which family member? Was it the younger sister who claims she was abused? Was it the gay masturbator? Was it the female cousin he experimented with "well into his teens"? Or was it someone else in the family?
At any rate, I'm not sure what type of advice to give the LW. I think if it were me, I'd make it a condition of remaining in the marriage that BOTH of us attend individual AND marital counseling, and I'd move out until that happened. I really hope there are no children involved here.
LW2: On wowowow, a commenter made the observation that if the sexes were reversed in this letter, it would have been handled very differently.
IMO, the issue is the lashing out. The LW should look into WHY they feel compelled to lash out at anybody much less her own husband because she's unhappy. Separation might be good too.
Comment: #1
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Mar 9, 2013 2:57 AM
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LW1--"I sought counseling because I was having a hard time functioning on a daily basis." Seriously?!? You and your husband enjoyed a generally happy marriage until some nut ball from his crazy dysfunctional family told you about some PERFECTLY NORMAL teenage boy behavior. I don't for a minute believe the added embellishment this lunatic in-law threw in about your husband and his brother molesting their sister. Unless your husband's teen aged sexual antics were video-taped and are now going viral on the Internet then stop making such a mountain out of a mole hill. Your husband isn't interested in joint counseling with you my dear because it is YOU who have gone off the deep end over this gossip. I'm sure the crazy in-law is tickled pink at the ease by which she was able to drop a grenade on your formerly happy marriage. My advice is to forget about what you learned about your husband, forgive him and stay in counseling to figure out why your psyche is to fragile.
LW2--"I am married to a great guy, but I frequently find him annoying." Guess what, me too! But my love for my guy allows me to overlook his superficial faults and see the wonderful loving person underneath. Unfortunately in your case, I have to agree with Margo that your problem runs deeper. You're not in love with your husband, you hate where you are, physically and figuratively. While I understand your leaving would "upset" your husband, you need to do what's best for you. And, it's not right to leave your husband in a one-sided marriage either. Tell your husband you'd like to try a separation. Move back to your home State and see how you feel in six months. If you feel liberated and free, the serve your husband with divorce papers and don't ask him for a thing.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Chris
Sat Mar 9, 2013 4:27 AM
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See, I'm not convinced that the behavior was perfectly normal, Chris. I know young people become sexually curious, but there's a huge difference between two little kids playing, "You show my yours, I'll show you mine" and a kid being forced to watch his gay cousin pleasure himself. That he had a sexual relationship with one of his female cousins during his teen years is also not normal. Margo doesn't think the molestation of the sister is true, but I'm going to disagree with her there.
Just because someone refuses counseling doesn't mean that they have it all together. Just because he admitted to everything but the molestation doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are plenty of people who reject counseling because they don't believe anything is wrong, even if there is. There are plenty of criminals who will admit to buglarizing the house, but not raping the woman. Who will admit to rape, but not murder. It's an issue of degrees, you see. The husband may very well have molested his sister, but won't admit to it out of fear that he may be held criminally liable for it.
I would certainly continue counseling without him, but would also see if there is any other evidence to corroborate what the mysterious family member said.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Wordsworth
Sat Mar 9, 2013 4:53 AM
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Perfectly normal, Chris? PERFECTLY NORMAL? Well, that explains a lot about YOU.
Comment: #4
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:07 AM
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@ Wordsmith, nanchan
Let me clarify before this gets out of hand. What I referred to as perfectly normal teen aged boy behavior was the masturbating, and even two boys experimenting or "kissing" cousins. All teenagers explore their sexuality. I completely discount the in-law's gossip because as I read between the lines, it's pretty clear that the LW herself is prudish and teetering on the edge emotionally. It isn't much of a stretch to speculate that one of her nutty in-laws took an opportunity to "share" a lascivious bit of embellished gossip about the LW's husband knowing it would send her off the deep end and upend the marriage. Believe it or not, there are people in this world who derive great pleasure in destroying other people's lives. The LW's husband admitted to the masturbating and fooling around with the cousins and vehemently denies molesting his sister. My inclination is to believe him. The LW needs to work through why she was so easily thrown off kilter by gossip from a source that is suspect at best.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Chris
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:29 AM
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And that is true, too, Chris. There are people who thrive on creating drama in families. I've known a few myself. :) For that reason, the lw should continue counseling, but may want to verify with other family members if the one in particular is known for spreading lies or if what was said is true. A good place to start would be with the sister.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Wordsworth
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:37 AM
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@ Wordsworth (sorry I got your handle wrong in my last post)
Absolutely agreed! If it's true the husband was forced to observe or participate in the masturbation with the male cousin, then he may be in denial and counseling for himself wouldn't be a bad idea either. In any case, distancing themselves from the in-laws isn't a bad idea either.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Chris
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:47 AM
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LW1: I would seriously wonder whether he actually did molest his sister. Of all the things he's accused of, that is the worst, and of course, that would be the last thing he'd confess to. Does his sister avoid him or not like him? You can only judge from her behavior. Pedophiles are just everyday people among us, and he sounds like an unfortunate victim/perpetrator. Do you have children? Please protect them.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Salty
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:54 AM
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Chris, I agree that there are people who want to create drama, but the behavior is not "PERFECTLY NORMAL".
Also, the LW's husband did not admit everything to his wife willingly. He was FORCED to admit it after someone on his family outed him to the wife. Even THEN he LIED at first and then finally 'fessed up to the 2 lesser of the 3 evils.
That is why I think he still needs counseling. He LIED to his wife when confronted at first. If he was really "over it" and moving on in a healthy way with his wife, he would have told her about it WILLINGLY and not after he had to be confronted.
NOT the family member's fault at all.
Comment: #9
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Mar 9, 2013 6:16 AM
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nanchan, I'm calling BS on this: "If the LW's husband was truly "functioning well", HE would have told his wife about this before the wedding" Maybe girls who blab everything they know would tell stuff like this before a wedding, but to assume a guy would make a point of telling his bride-to-be about the sex games of his youth is just absurd.
My first thought was that the LW should go back to the "helpful' family member and ask straight up "Why did you tell me that?" Answer of course "Because I thought you should know." Response: "Why? How was that supposed to help my marriage?" In other words, the family member is the trouble maker here, and the LW has been poisoned with images and half truths, some of which may be worse than the actual truth.
And please remember, folks, rape is a very specific thing whereas "molestation' can mean anything from normal curious behavior to something worse, depending on who's telling it. The word itself implies that one half of the pair is being coerced, and she doesn't even know that for sure. But now that this Pandora's Box has been opened, SHE's the one who needs the counseling to figure out how to get "back to Eden" - before she had this knowledge. I'd avoid that family member, though.
Lw 2 is not "in love" with her husband. Unless there's some planet where "loving" someone involves being irritated by them, snapping at them, and not wanting to live with them - she should just end it now. She's torturing this guy who, by her own admission "tries very hard not to upset her." This was an unbalanced pair to begin with. She says she can't "find reasons" to leave, but her reason is in front of her - she's making him miserable and herself miserable at the same time.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sat Mar 9, 2013 6:18 AM
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re: Salty
Good point.
Comment: #11
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Mar 9, 2013 6:57 AM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence
I don't know why you had such a strong opinion on that sentence.
First of all, I can agree that somebody's sexual past does not to be revealed really UNLESS it will affect their partners in the future. This definately qualifies as something that can affect the LW and it HAS. The fact that the LW's husband has some, shall we say, interesting skeletons in his closet? Well, yes, I would have expected him to tell ME about that before the wedding. I would have to interact with these people for the rest of my (married) life and I certainly wouldn't want CHILDREN of mine around the uncle who needs help masturbating, gay or not! Likewise a man who thinks of his own family as a sexual hotbed. These people have some serious issues with BOUNDARIES.
Children explore sexually all the time, with themselves usually, and when they hit a certain age with consenting people OUTSIDE of their families. I come from a large family and we were all taught MODESTY at a young age which apparently is not the case here. The LW and her husband clearly have very different ideas of what is right, and what is wrong. By not telling her about this before the wedding, he sold his wife on a different life than what she got.
And what's up with you people killing the messenger! The Family member who told could have done so possibly because the LW is considering bringing children into this mess. The family member is not to blame. It's the husband.
Comment: #12
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Mar 9, 2013 7:07 AM
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Chris and Maggie, I agree. Most of what was 'told' by the letter writer is normal boy behavior at that age. The molestation of the sister could be detected by her current behavior towards her brother. Otherwise, if this is such a pressing question, the LW could ask the sister. Also it is important to understand that the letter was written to reflect the worst possible senerio to reflect her outrage at her husband. I can't think of anyone who would think it appropriate or even necessary to disclose these boyhood sexual experimentations to a perspective mate. He was a child at that time and now he is an adult. It could be that the'informer' was really concerned about what she/he suspected, but why was it held back for so long. The informer is either a trouble maker or something happened recently that makes her/him feel this is important information to pass on at this point. Since the LW did not state that something has changed (important information to leave out) I'm going with the trouble maker approach. LW definitely needs to do more research on her own to determine which is the truth. Of course this will disturb her husband but what-the-hey, at this point she doesn't really care.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Penny
Sat Mar 9, 2013 7:27 AM
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Hubby sounds like a fairly normal guy (unless he actually molested his sister, in which case, not so much!), and wifey sounds like a fairly normal woman. The trick here is that most women would not realize that guys do this, so hearing this kind of info would cause most women to think their husbands are perverts, at best. Aliens at worst. ;) (Have you ever read the advice column letters from traumatized mothers who accidentally walked in on their son with his friends?) Unless she has strong reason to believe the sister was molested, she should let this go.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Eliza167
Sat Mar 9, 2013 8:17 AM
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LW1 -
I disagree with Margo.
If his initial reaction was to lie and deny, then it is NOT because "he has come to terms with his past" that he is unwilling to go to counselling. Furthermore, even if he had, if he values his wife and married life, he should be willing to address the issue with a counsellor if only because of what's it's doing to his marriage. As it is, I find him quite dismissive of his wife's concern, like HE has no problem, nobody has a problem.
These are serious revelations, something that has an impact on several aspects of his married life, and therefore should have been part of a full disclosure BEFORE he married you - precisely to avoid the shit hitting the fan at one point. He didn't need to make it a special "Honey, I have a confession to make" type of serious business. He could have jokingly mentioned that he did a lot of kidding around as a youngster. Surely there were occasions when he could have casually plugged this information in the conversation. IF he really was so much at peace about it. Definitely, you would have needed to know about some gay cousin who likes to masturbate in front of pre-teens. The fact that he didn't, and initially lied and denied, does cast doubt on his denials about the molestation of the sister.
It is possible that this looks a lot worse than it is. Unfortunately, unless hubby is willing to come to the counsellor and clean this up, he will continue to be found guilty by default, if only because his refusal to cooperate makes him look like he has NOT come to terms with this, that it was NOT normal, and like what's come out already is just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you have any children with this man, on of whom soon to be a pre-teen? Or were you starting to plan on having some? I am trying to determine the motivation of a family member dropping such a stink bomb on your marriage. That person may have been trying to protect your children. If there are no children in your life and none coming, then I can only assume that incest and molestation are not the only problem behaviours plaguing this family.
It may be better that you get out of this snake pit while you're relatively unscathed. Because I can predict this issue will continue to fester if Mister Hubby-with-the-hands keep trying to push it back under the rug, until it finally eats up your marriage from the inside. Not to mention that, as things presently stand, you cannot afford to take a chance with having a family with this man.
LW2 -
You do not love this man, and this is why you are unhappy without any good reason and feel trapped. Leave. You deserve better and so does he.
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@Chris #2
I would agree with you on the experimentation theory if he had always treated this in a joking, casual matter and it hadn't been such a dirty little secret shoved under the rug for ten years. The fact that he originally lied and denied shows it was NOT "perfectly normal" for him.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Mar 9, 2013 9:25 AM
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Lise, did you miss the part where LW says it was a "gay cousin"? How many men, as they're approaching their wedding, are going to say across dinner to the fiancee, "Oh by the way, honey, in case I forgot to mention it, I used to jerk off my gay cousin. But don't worry. It was just games." Seriously? I wish somebody would open a window and let some of the estrogen out! This is one of those things that I think most guys would go "WTH does she want?" While the women wring their hands and want counseling and "coming to terms with" and "facing the truth" blah, blah, blah - for what purpose? Clearly, this husband - with whom she'd had a good marriage for 10 years - has compartmentalized this under "childhood sex games" and shut the door.
Now the trouble-making relative (a woman, I'd bet anything) is trying to yank the door open. Again, I say, WHAT FOR? And nanchan, what do children have to do with this? Are you suggesting that playing sex games as a child means he's now going to be a pedaphile against his own child? Thanks for just inviting Princess Bride to weigh in again on some of the idiot assumptions women make about men.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sat Mar 9, 2013 9:44 AM
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@ Maggie Lawrence
Evidently, you are the only other person in this room with an ounce of common sense today! You go girl!
Comment: #17
Posted by: Chris
Sat Mar 9, 2013 10:02 AM
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Hey, Chris, I agreed with you! Perhaps those without boy children or who have never been boys themselves will see things differently. Boys tend too see these things in a different light- like a boy light. I've raised both and there is a big difference. Boys do seem to be more adventurous with sexual exploration at that age. Both mine turned out to be perfectly normal straight men. I only added last part so no one would think that this type of behavior leads to 'turning gay'. ;0) Just little boy stuff.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Penny
Sat Mar 9, 2013 10:44 AM
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Chris, Eliza167 also agreed. She probably has a boy child too.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Penny
Sat Mar 9, 2013 10:49 AM
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Margo, please stop billing yourself as Ann Landers' daughter, which seems to be your chief (if not only) qualification to be an advice columnist yourself. Your dear mother would never, ever say that someone's refusal to get counseling, especially someone with a past like LW1's husband, means that they're just fine, thank you.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Kimiko
Sat Mar 9, 2013 11:23 AM
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I have to agree that it would never cross most guys' minds to disclose their youthful sexual explorations and escapades under the guise of coming clean prior to marriage. Naturally if the parties involved are not closed minded freaks these sorts of things do come up in conversation with most people, but not in a confessional - I have something I need to tell you sort of way. The idea that the husband in L1 should or would have confessed or disclosed in this manner is absurd! If he molested the sister though, that's another story.
LW2 needs to get a divorce before more time passes and children become involved.
Comment: #21
Posted by: EstherGreenwood
Sat Mar 9, 2013 11:33 AM
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Re: Penney
Hope you've seen Carrie Fisher's hilarious monologue Wishful Drinking. The part about how she has a supernatural power to "turn men gay" is hilarious...lol!
Comment: #22
Posted by: EstherGreenwood
Sat Mar 9, 2013 11:52 AM
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Margo is (by far) the BEST, most psychologically astute, mentally healthy "advice" columnist in the international English media. Her wise advice is not always 100% correct, as she is not a mind-reader or God, but it is as close to constructive and useful reality, (not self-help dogma or nice-sounding politically-correct platitudes), as humanly possible. You are wrong (my opinion, not scientific fact).
Comment: #23
Posted by: Ron Norman
Sat Mar 9, 2013 3:04 PM
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Margo's not bad, but for my money, the Washington Post's Carolyn Hax is far and away the best general advice columnist in the English-language media.
Comment: #24
Posted by: hedgehog
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:45 PM
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LW1 - for my money, the disturbing part isn't what the guy did or didn't do, it's his refusal to be truthful from the start with his wife, where "the start" was when she asked him about it, not earlier in their relationship. As for the sister, she should ask the sister if she wants to know or at the minimum decide based on how the sister acts now. The other disturbing thing is when the LW ws so distraught about this that she sought counseling & he refused to go to couples' counseling with her. At a minimum, he should be concerned about his wife's regard for him & her adjustment to what she learned, not just assume that if he's fine, everyone's fine. As for Margo, she has a recurring tendency to blow off the concerns of the people who write to her, which is fine if she wants to be entertained, and less fine if she has some illusion that she's supposed to be giving helpful advice. Her statement, "His unwillingness to get counseling indicates he has come to terms with his past" is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in an advice column, and I've seen a lot of ridiculous advice.
LW2 - do both of you a favor and leave this guy. I think being miserable is a good enough reason to leave someone. There is such a thing as "no fault" divorce for a reason.
Comment: #25
Posted by: kai archie
Sat Mar 9, 2013 7:35 PM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence
I didn't "miss" the part where he said it was a gay cousin, I just read it differently than you. And I never said he should drop this bomb on her three seconds before the wedding, I said he should have found a way to lightly insert the "kibbutzing" (if that's what it really was) in the conversation at one point. But that's precisely it, if he found it necessary to lie about it and deny it, then it wasn't just normal kiddie experimentation.
Comment: #26
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Mar 9, 2013 7:40 PM
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Margo, you think that unwillingness to get counseling means you have come to terms with your past? Wow, that makes sense. I guess people who are unwilling to get treatment for alcoholism are not alcoholics, then.
That is an appallingly ignorant thing to say, and really disappointing coming from an advice columnist.
Obviously, if the guy had come to terms with his past, he would have told his wife about it, for starters.
I usually like your advice, but now I question your judgement.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Mary
Sat Mar 9, 2013 9:29 PM
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I can't believ that having sex with cousins is considered perfectly normal by some of these commenters. what part of the States do you live in, btw>
Being forced to participate in sex is called abuse.
And not being willing to talk abot it is an indicator that the person has not come to terms with it. Honestly Margo, what is wrong with you?
Comment: #28
Posted by: Mary
Sat Mar 9, 2013 9:33 PM
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There are 19 states that allow marriage between first cousins including Alabama, California and New York. A further six allow it with conditions connected to reproduction. Having sex with your cousin is not as weird as many posters are making it out to be. I realize that most people acquaint it with hicks and red necks and such, but that isn't necessarily the case.
Comment: #29
Posted by: wyn667
Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:14 AM
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@ Mary
If you deigned to come out from under that rock you've apparently been living under for the past few decades you might find yourself surprised by the sorts of activities contained within any individual's sexual repertoire that is indeed considered perfectly normal. Perhaps you should head over to Dan Savage's excellent column once in awhile to learn more. Moreover, as wyn pointed out, marriage between cousins is actually legal in many states and is no longer considered the taboo it once was because the fear that genetic deformations in offspring from such unions has been dispelled. Finally Mary, while I totally agree that being forced to participate in any sexual activity is indeed abuse, there's no evidence other than the gossip from the trouble-making in-law to support the claim. The LW gives no indication that the revelation suddenly explained for her some behavioral or psychological issues her husband might have been experiencing, which is pretty important information to leave out. The man probably lied initially because he, like the in-law, knew revealing the incendiary details of the truth would send his wife off her rocker, which it did.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Chris
Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:05 AM
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Re: wyn667
Experimentation between cousins of whatever gender is actually quite common, especially when the people involved are very young, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as everything is consensual. In this situation however, the red flags are that he was initially forced to watch, when confronted he initially lied and denied it, he won't discuss it with a counsellor in spite of what it's doing to his marriage, and he's being accused of molestation. That's plenty to be concerned about imho.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:26 AM
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Well, Lise, we do indeed see it differently. I wasn't talking about "three seconds before the wedding" either, but one of my points is - what is the point of bringing it up AT ALL?? How many serious boyfriends have you thought "Gee, I ought to tell him about that stuff we kids used to do out in the shed before this goes any farther?" I've had three husbands and many "boyfriends" and dates, and not once did it ever occur to me to either reveal such information or ask for it. What would be the point?? (I ask for the fifth time)
And remember that the LW says her informant told her that her husband and a brother "molested" their sister. Showing each other "theirs" would be considered "molestation" by some hysterical people, and it isn't at all clear what's meant here. So he lied and denied it and then admitted to the child sex play but not the molestation. SO FREAKIN' WHAT?? He was undoubedly embarrassed to be sideswiped out of the blue.
If I tell you that I think you're an alcoholic and you need to go to counseling and you say no I'm not and no I won't, is that evidence that you have a problem? But now the husband, who showed no evidence of being damaged or overly kinky before all this, is being told he needs to go to counseling and says hell no. Well, so would I!
Comment: #32
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:33 PM
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How, exactly, was the husband "forced" to watch his cousin? Let's be a little bit more logical about this.
It's not universal, but it is common, for male adolescents to "experiment" as they go through puberty (which can include the "pre-teen" years if you are an early bloomer). Whether they are gay or straight.
And it's also very common for these experimenting boys to feel shame or embarrassment about what they've done, and to not want it to come to light. And to try their best to forget about it as they become adults, form primary sexual relationships, etc. Especially for straight boys becoming straight men, they want to pretend it never happened.
So let's say someone else in the family stumbles onto this behavior, or overhears something, or observes that these two teen boys are spending a lot of time alone together... there's a confrontation or intervention, and the straight teen, in total panic, proclaims that he never wanted any of that behavior in the first place, that he was "forced" to watch. And maybe he begs this someone else to keep his secret.
But of course this someone else, years later, can't keep the secret. So this someone else tells the wife, the wife confronts the husband, and what exactly is the husband supposed to do about some boyhood exploration and experimentation that he was embarrassed about to begin with, and never should have been made public? He denies, at first, hoping his wife will just drop it, because the shame and humiliation all comes rushing back. Finally, realizing she won't let it go, he confirms that part of the story, about how he was "forced" into it.
The someone else who betrayed this secret for no apparent reason other than to cause drama is part of the problem; the LW herself also seems to be rather over-reacting. The husband, unfortunately, is probably wishing the whole thing would go away, because (most likely scenario), it was just innocent experimentation and a lie to cover it up, and now years and years later it's come back to haunt him and drive a wedge between him and his wife.
He probably has no need for counseling because he was more of a willing participant than he wants to acknowledge -- if his wife has reacted so strongly to this story already, how would she react if she learned that he wasn't actually forced?
(And before anyone suggests I'm minimizing abuse, we aren't actually hearing from the person who was supposedly abused... we're getting this second hand, and it's a story that doesn't fully add up.)
I'm with Chris and Maggie's side on this one.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:41 PM
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Okay guys, I'm going to throw my two cents in.
Whether the husband was abused by either cousin (male or female) or was consensually experimenting, it isn't any of the wife's business. If the genders were reversed, we would be telling the husband to mind his own beeswax. If the husband was abused as a youth and is choosing not to deal with it, the only thing that the wife can do is provide loving support and let the husband talk and share if/when he wants to. If the kids experimented, her appropriate response would be to laugh it off and say, "You don't want to know the silly things I did as a kid!" Instead this wife has thrown a hissy fit, stirred up BS for the whole family and has claimed trauma to HERSELF over the whole thing. Our sexuality is our own, and how we experiment with it, learn about it, and come to terms with it is no one else's business.
I played doctor with a neighbor girl once. It never would have occurred to me to tell my husband about it. I've also been raped more than once. My husband had an idea that bad things happened to me, but he allowed me the space to come to terms with it and tell him in my own time. That is what this wish should have done. Can she go back and try to fix things? She can try, but I tell you, if I were him, I would have a divorce lawyer on the phone.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Julie
Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:57 AM
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Re: Chris, Maggie
I have to agree with Chris and Maggie.
I don't consider being molested as a child by older children a reason for “full disclosure” to someone I'm either seriously involved in or marrying. I think the letter writer's husband is embarrassed by what happened. Also he has a right to keep this part if his life private. She doesn't say who tipped her off about her husbands back ground but even if, as a teenager, he and his brother molested his sister, that doesn't mean that as an adult, he's going to molest children. There is obviously a trouble maker in the family and it sounds like they are having a great time bugging the letter writer.
Comment: #35
Posted by: commentator
Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:11 PM
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Re: Chris, Maggie
I have to agree with Chris and Maggie.
I don't consider being molested as a child by older children a reason for “full disclosure” to someone I'm either seriously involved in or marrying. I think the letter writer's husband is embarrassed by what happened. Also he has a right to keep this part if his life private. She doesn't say who tipped her off about her husbands back ground but even if, as a teenager, he and his brother molested his sister, that doesn't mean that as an adult, he's going to molest children. There is obviously a trouble maker in the family and it sounds like they are having a great time bugging the letter writer.
Comment: #36
Posted by: commentator
Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:11 PM
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LW1 -- I am with Chris, Maggie, Mike H., etc., but with a couple of caveats:
1) I am well aware of how kids (both genders, by the way, though perhaps boys more than girls, but I'm not so totally sure of that) experiment sexually and think it's usually harmless, normal stuff. I can think of a few things I did with the boy down the street and a couple of my friends (female) when we were kids that I have never told my husband. I haven't told him simply because it has never occurred to me to tell him -- I didn't think any of it was all that momentous or worth telling. Certainly, if the subject came up somehow, I'd tell him about it because I just don't think it's that big of a deal. No one was forced, and it was all pretty innocuous. Of course, if the LW's husband really WAS "forced" to participate, that does make a difference. But I can also see Mike H's point about the husband not wanting to admit he was a willing participant. To me, a big part of the key is whether he was truly forced or not. We have no way of knowing one way or the other.
2) Margo's bit about his refusing counseling being an indication that everything is fine is about the most ridiculous thing I've seen written by an advice columnist ever. Unfortunately, it's EXTREMELY common for someone who is in serious need of professional help -- be it physiological or psychological -- refusing to get it. If everything really was harmless, typical experimentation, the husband probably doesn't NEED counseling -- but clearly his wife does, and while I don't blame him for not wanting to bother with it, it would also seem pretty clear that his marriage is only going to continue to get worse unless or until he agrees to go to counseling with her. So, even if I don't believe he needs to get counseling, I believe his choices are to agree to go for couple's counseling with her or end the marriage. Of course, he's not the one who wrote in for advice.
3) Did the LW always think this family was "beyond dysfunctional," even before the relative told her this stuff about her husband, or does she only now think they're dysfunctional because of what she was told? This makes a big difference for me because when the LW says everything in the marriage was basically fine before she was told this stuff, we are assuming that everything was also basically fine with the family dynamics, as well. But just because everything was fine with the marriage doesn't mean that everything was always fine with the family dynamics. If the family dynamics always seemed dysfunctional even before she was told all this stuff, then there may be a whole lot more to this than simple childhood experimentation that's been trumped up by a trouble-making relative. I am assuming that she didn't think of them as "beyond dysfunctional" until she heard about all this stuff -- but if that is NOT the case, then there could be more here.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:12 PM
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LW1:
Correct posters:
Chris, Maggie, Penny, Eliza167, EstherGreenwood, Julie, commentator, and Lisa
Incorrect:
Nanchan, Mary (and Lise a bit)
I can't add much to Mike H's almost certainly correct assessment. A huge huge percentage of kids do all this stuff (except for molestation), no matter how much all you "good honest folk" want to put your heads in the sand.
It sounds like this "helpful" party who "revealed" this bullsh*t was overreacting, just like the posters who are aghast at what happened. Assuming that the sister wasn't actually molested, which I also very much doubt.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Steve C
Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:25 PM
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Strangely, I never did any kind of experimentation as a young kid that could even remotely be considered sexual, with boys or girls, though in retrospect I sincerely wish I had. So while experimentation may be common, I can personally vouch that not all kids do it.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Paul W
Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:59 PM
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@Paul W -- I don't doubt that not every single child on the face of the earth has engaged in this type of behavior, but I do think it's pretty common. And again, there's a pretty giant difference between "harmless experimentation" and molestation. There are lots of things that not every child does that are perfectly normal. Some kids never do crawl -- skip that stage entirely and go straight to walking, for example. The vast majority of kids, of course, DO crawl, but not all of them. And even among the kids who do crawl, not all of them crawl the same way -- some "scoot," for example.
But I will also say that it's not uncommon for a kid to have engaged in some sort of experimentation, and then as an adult not remember it. Not because s/he's traumatically blocked it out, but because it happened young enough that s/he never spent much time thinking about it, and over time, s/he just forgets about it. And of course still others have engaged in it and "don't remember" because they're in denial about it -- they think that what they did was shameful and won't admit to it, not even to themselves. I am not suggesting this is the case for you or any of the other posters who reacted so negatively to this particular LW's story.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:58 AM
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