Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW2 - I always wonder when a LW includes details that are totally irrelevant to the question at hand. For example, why does it matter that LW's siblings married young? Perhaps she feels superior to these siblings because they got married and she went to college, and her parents for whatever reason don't appreciate that attitude? As always, there is no point to telling the Annie's something that she actually wants her parents to know. If she wants her parents to know that she wasn't asking them to spend any or much money on this event, then she should tell her parents, not hope they recognize themselves in an advice column. She can try describing in more detail the event she has in mind, and if they don't want her to use their house, she should ask a close relative or friend if she can have it there. Given that the parents equated paying for this party with paying for her wedding, there sounds like a serious disconnect about the scale of this party. As far as waiting until guests arrive to tell them it's a graduation party - well, that's pretty silly advice. If this a small party of people she is close to, they will probably notice the coincidence of graduation followed by party. Some people who realize this will bring gifts & cards, and others will feel embarrassed because they didn't. Having a party with her fellow graduates is certainly an option, but it sounded like the LW wanted to celebrate with her family.

@kai archie -
The reason the LW mentioned the siblings marrying young was to make the point that the parents value marriage over education. E.g., when the LW mentions a party for graduation, the parents imply that that is nothing to celebrate, but that a wedding is. You also missed the point about the scale of the party; I don't see where the parents compared it the scale of a wedding, only to the importance.

I can kind of understand the disappointment of LW2. I was the oldest daughter in my family, and as a young lady, I was very attractive. My parents decided that they would not even help me fill out the college application forms because, I would marry well.
Fast forward to the days when I was a secretary to a corporate officer of a fortune 500 company who encouraged me to use the tuition reimbursement program and I did. I earned an undergraduate degree summa cum laude while working full time and with a son to care for. My husband was fantastically supportive during that time. It took seven years, but I received my degree, with a special award. My husband wanted to throw a party to celebrate, and no way we were expecting gifts, we just wanted a party. The disapproval from all sides make us kill the party. I will never understand why. Both my sister and my brother and I were determined enough to get the undergraduate and Master's Degrees in our respective fields, and I would have been willing to celebrate each. I guess some people just can't be happy for others...and pass up free food and drinks and fun in the process. Every invite is not a gift grab, folks!

Parents may also be a bit jealous or intimidated by college graduates. A whole houseful of them for a party? Making parents feel "dumb"? May also feel that a "woman's place" is married and having children. I have had students come weeping to me because their parents were hostile about the child getting an education. I encouraged them to have a heart-to-heart with a parent about it, and often the parents broke down and admitted that they were envious of the opportunity their child had, and feared the child would look down on them now that they were "smarter" than the parent. Hugs and reassurance from the student who said she recognized the experience and wisdom of the parent often healed the rift.

Re: sarah stravinska
Sarah,

I would think that most parents want their children to do better than they did, and would help their children to succeed. My parents were not first generation anything, and they also had opportunities. Parents should encourage their children to succeed, and I am grateful that my parents imparted intelligence, work ethic, and caring enough to give me the self esteem to pursue the education they did not think I would need. They came to the graduation and supported me once they realized I was serious. They were proud, not jealous.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the first letter on 25 November 2012, and was also discussed on 8 January 2013.

What is this, National Bend-Over Day?

LW1: It'd be great if we all grew wiser with age, but whether through cowardice or early dementia, some people abandon whatever common sense they once had by middle age. Your cousin is probably used to intimidating people with his irrational outbursts, and he expects you to play along. If you think the real Kevin is still in there somewhere, you might be able to get him back, but not if you stay silent or wimp out with the mealymouthed whine the Annies suggested. If there is to be any hope for your relationship, you'll have to set him straight as soon as he starts his rants. Correct him early and often, and he'll either wake up or take his freak show elsewhere. You might not get the real Kevin back, but at least you'll have your answer and keep your dignity.

LW2: If your parents still think you're asking for money or graduation gifts, set them straight. Make it clear that you're asking only for the use of their home, and see what they say. If they let you use their home, great! Throw yourself a nice party (or maybe team up with friends and relatives who are also graduating) and invite anyone you think will be interested in celebrating your graduation. And by all means, when you invite your guests, tell them what the party is for! (The Annies must be getting their WTF degree this week.) Anyone worthy of the invitation will want to know what you're celebrating. Most will choose to bring cards or gifts, and that's appropriate. (As Kai Archie said, those who don't do so because they don't know it's a graduation party will feel embarrassed. The first rule of hospitality is "Don't embarrass your guests.") Obviously your parents don't value education as you do, but maybe they'll learn a bit about how people celebrate achievement. And if not, you'll still have your party. Congratulations!

LW3: Good advice from LW3. I would just add that "Sickened" should actually read the books in question before deciding they're not appropriate for her child. She will maintain her integrity, and she might be pleasantly surprised.

A college degree doesn't mean a person is more intelligent, simply more educated. This is especially true now since online degrees are more prevalent. I know many people with degrees that are rather stupid. After getting a degree they are stupid and in debt. Not everyone is meant for college. The glut of people going unnecessarily has made a degree almost useless.

If you want a party, throw yourself one at a local park. Or rent a room somewhere.

MT, the letter isn't about the market value of a degree; it's about the parents' lack of respect for their daughter's efforts. I agree that she should have a party regardless of what they say, but first she should give them an opportunity to participate. Despite their initial response, they might come to see that hosting a small party isn't much to ask, and it's important to their daughter.

LW2, I'd give it another try with your parents, to let them know that you aren't interested in money, just having a celebration with friends and family. And graduation parties are very, very common -- they are not at all unusual or bizarre or selfish, so ignore the Annies' advice about keeping the reason for the party secret, that's just silly.

Every single one of my friends who graduated college had a party hosted by their families. It's not odd. What *is* odd is that your parents seem to be so dismissive of your achievement and so obsessed with marriage. (Given that many people are staying single longer, and some never marrying, it's odd that they would put such pressure on you.)

If your parents still won't budge, then try to find another venue; perhaps an aunt or uncle or grandparent in the area might want to help? Or maybe you can just have a large picnic party at a local park, something that could be done without a lot of cost to you.

In any event, congratulations on your upcoming achievement, and best of luck in whatever is coming next for you (career, military, or graduate school). Just continue to believe in yourself and your goals, and try not to worry if your parents don't seem supportive -- you're an adult now, and the choices are yours.

LW1, a lot of unpleasant people think that shouting other people down or being the loudest is the same as "winning the argument", when nothing could be further from the truth.

Simply, quietly, clearly take a stand. If he's unwilling to avoid certain topics, then it doesn't matter how many memories of the past you share, you should spend less and less time with him; and find new friends to socialize with, ones who are more congenial and less abrasive.

**Off Topic**
@ Lise Brouillette
I left another comment for you about using debit cards on yesterday's thread.

LW1 - The LW should take a stand with Kevin and not just ignore his rants, because doing so will be taken as agreement. However, it isn't necessary to get into a shouting match with him. Simply stand your ground and let him know that you disagree with him, give your reasons, and then change the subject. There would be no point in getting into a big argument over his rants, because for whatever the cause of the change in him, it's not worth it. People do change with age, and not always for the better. It may be time to simply enjoy reliving the memories of the good times the LW had with Kevin years ago, and spend less and less time in his company now. Life's too short to spend it in useless arguments.

LW2 - I agree with Baldrz that the LW should explain to the parents one more time that he/she isn't asking for financial help with the party, just a larger venue in which to hold it, and certainly don't keep the reason for the party a secret from the guests. For one thing, anyone close enough to the LW to be invited will figure out why the party is being given, and some may bring gifts, while others may not. The Annies' advice to keep the reason for the party a secret is idiotic. If the parents still object to the party for whatever reason, the LW should find another place to hold it and go ahead with the plans. I can't comment on the reasons why the parents may find early marriage more favorable than education, since I don't know them or their circumstances and won't speculate.

One of my husband's childhood friends is much like LW1's cousin. He has tendency to go off in a rant on several different topics and can slide over to one of those topics even when the conversation is about something very different. I suspect he has a form of Tourette Syndrome, but I see no reason to suffer in silence when he starts. Whether on the phone or in person, if I cannot get a civil word out to attemt to redirect the conversation, I will count down slowly but loudly from three. Instead of zero I say "Goodbye" and either hang up or turn around and walk away. Since I started doing this, he has significantly reduced both the frequency and duration of his ranting episodes and it is getting easier to converse with him.

You cannot change other people, but you can change how you react to them. If they then choose to make changes within themselves, it is absolutely Win-Win.

LW1--Let's recap shall we? Your idiot cousin 'Kevin' is loud, obnoxious, rude, crude and a racist, however; because you had some fun adventures when you were younger you're reticent to distance yourself. Stop being a moron. Your cousin offends you time and time again but you don't say squat about it because he USED to be a nicer person. Either stand by your convictions and call him out on his bullshit or continue to remain silent and be guilty by association.

LW2--I agree with the Annies; if you want a party, throw one yourself. Your parents aren't bursting with exuberance over your achievements because clearly they're not what you'd call high achievers themselves. They have no concept whatsoever of college or what it takes to earn a degree. I would imagine a small intimate affair with close friends would be more enjoyable than hanging out with a bunch of unsophisticated hicks whose highlight of the day is a trip to Wal-Mart.

LW3--What the hell is a reading specialist?!? "Sickened on the East Coast" was clearly a narrow minded idiot and you're not far behind if you think that reading certain books will instill traits like gratitude, honesty, generosity and courage in kids.

LW1: Answermam has the best approach to this. I have several friends who have VASTLY different political views than I do, and during the election, I took a similar approach. If they started on criticizing my political party I'd say something like "You know, Patty, that I disagree with you so let's not talk about this at all." Then if they did a second time, I'd say "I love you, Patty, and I disagree with you. Let's talk about _______." If it happened a third time, I'd say "Patty, I got to go. Goodbye." I didn't lose any friends (although many were hidden during the election cycle on FB, yikes!) If you are with these people in person, simply walk away.

LW2: The bottom line here is this: not everybody is going to appreciate your achievements the way that you would want them to, and then some things you do will get people all happy for you and you will be shaking your head going "why?". I never understood why people were so happy when I got a certain certification (I had been doing the work for years, just hadn't had the certs) and WEREN'T happy when I took that knowledge and incorporated my company. People have different ideas of success, you see.

I like the idea of having your own party, then invite your parents and family. If they attend, great.

PS: I'll just bet you they are pleased to the point of bursting their buttons about this, they probably just aren't the type to show it. My family is that way. I thought they weren't proud of my company until I ran into a family friend who asked me about it (I hadn't mentioned it) and they said "Your mom is SO proud of what you are doing." It's just how some families are.

LW3: I was never censored as a child in what I read. What I watched on television, yes. But what I read? No.

I was about 10 when I read "Helter Skelter" (about the Manson murders). It was just hanging around the house. The Manson murders had happened about 30 minutes away from where I grew up, and I remember the trial vividly. My father was a lawyer at the time and had taken me to the courthouse as a small child where I had seen the Manson girls outside and been incredibly confused, so I was intrigued when I saw the book and read through it in about 2 days (and that is a BIG book).

Did reading "Helter Skelter" at 10 turn me into a serial killer? Um, no. Did it make me ripe for some cult leader? No, in fact it had the opposite effect.

Censorship should not be a replacement for loving, caring and consistent parenthood. If you are a good parent, you know that when a child reads a book like "Helter Skelter", if they TRUST YOU, they will come to you and ask you questions about it and you can use it to actually REINFORCE your beliefs! My parents did. I asked my Dad a lot of questions about the legal system and he ANSWERED them. He also gave me his opinions on the death penalty, and on "those damn hippies" (hilarious! I can still hear him saying it and it makes me smile!). I asked my mother a lot of questions about the culture of intense FEAR that I can remember from when I was a small child. She was happy to tell me about how we kids weren't allowed to play in the streets for weeks (I remembered that) and only on our property because my parents were afraid the murders were part of a race war (You have to remember, the murders happened not long after the Watts Riots). I asked my older brothers and sisters THEIR opinions on things. My oldest sister was 18 and in university in San Francisco when the murders happened, her take on things (and hippies!) was vastly different from our parent's views.

So, these controversial books can (and SHOULD!) inspire dialogue and that is GOOD.

PS: Even my conservative parochial elementary school allowed me to write a book report on Helter Skelter. I'm sure my 5th grade teacher was a little shocked though!

Re: Kitty

I agree the Annies' advice to not tell people WHY the LW is having a party is pretty bizarre.

They must be reading Chris's post BTL about how all parties are simply gift grabbing attempts!

LW2: What's most likely driving your parents' refusal isn't the fact that you graduated college and they did not, but that you did and your SIX siblings did not. They believe that publicly celebrating your accomplishment will be interpreted by your sibs as cheering your choice and dissing the sibs' choices-- or that it might re-open some wounds for sibs who had very much hoped to go to college, but could not (discussions you might have been too young to have heard or understood). The resentment could be even deeper if your parents funded your education.

I don't know whether any of my friends had graduation parties -- my parents had moved out of state by the time I graduated, so I didn't see what was happening with my high school friends and my college friends' hometowns were scattered. We celebrated before leaving town.

Am I the only one wondering whether LW is being disingenuous about "I wasn't asking them to spend money?" and while suggesting a "small party of family and friends"? She's got six married sibs who likely have kids, so this kind of small party is likely to mean at least 25 people, and parties tend to involve more than cake, and she doesn't mention potluck.

When I was working on my BA, a bunch of us formed an informal support group. All of our families were doing whatever they could to sabotage our efforts. It doesn't matter how you handle it, there are people out there who will take it as a threat or a criticism of THEM when you try to do something good for YOURSELF. At the party my university department held for all its graduates, you should have seen the hissy fit my mother threw when my professors tried to compliment me to her. Take it from me, you don't want these wet blankets at any party celebrating your graduation. You go, girl!

LW1: I have inlaws that were argumentative, and I learned to simply either say what I thought very simply and then shut up, or simply say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then shut up.
And if you are a praying person, a quick prayer against the evil in their attitude worked wonders.

LW2: So if you meet a guy and get married, even though half of all marriages end in divorce, it's OK to throw yourselves a party, announce the reason for a party and get presents.
Then if you and your husband have 15 minutes of fun and you get pregnant, it's OK to throw yourself a party, announce the reason for the party, and get presents.
But if you studied for years and get a hard-earned diploma, it's NOT OK to throw yourself a party, announce the reason for the party, and get presents?!?!

You SHOULD have the party and TELL PEOPLE WHY. You did something amazing--graduated from college and without much support, if I read between the lines- so you ARE fabulous and accomplished, and everyone should know it!

LW2: Is this April 1st ? I can't believe what I'm reading here today! Honestly, what kind of parent is not happy and beaming with pride when a child of theirs graduates from college ???!!! Regardless of their education or any of the family's education history , they should all be happy for this individual ! Annie's advice shocks me ! Stores have entire sections of cards and party supplies for graduation parties. We celebrate birthdays and holidays just because. A graduation or promotion or any kind of major achievement should be celebrated. Someone actually worked hard and accomplished something.Put on the invitations , or word of mouth NO GIFTS ACCEPTED ! Who gives a F#$% who's married and who's not?? What's that got to do with anything ?? Who gives a F#$% who else went to college or not ??! We're all individuals leading our own lives. Not everbody needs college or can handle college or can afford college. So its a bad thing one member of the family DID ?? CONGRATULATIONS PUZZLED !! I'm a high school drop out, thats now unemployed (I'm 54) and I am very proud of you !! I will come to your party , I'd be honored to celebrate your achievement ! Getting married or having kids is a choice and doesn't happen to everybody. Its not an achievement.

THANK YOU comments 21 and 23. I didn't realize parents or families like this existed ! Puzzled is very lucky she is different !!

I paid my own way through college. When I got my Bachelors degree, my parents came and gave me a card with $25. No party, or even going out to dinner. My husband was the first to graduate college in his family (6 kids). He not only paid his own way through, but paid his family's mortgage during his last year of school. No party, but they took him out to dinner. When I got my Master's degree many years later, my husband threw me a nice party at a restaurant and invited all my friends. I was a little embarrassed, but I appreciated that people were proud of me. I would say to the letter writer, throw yourself a party, and invite your friends, because they maight be more proud of you than your family. But you deserve a pat on the back for your hard work. Congratulations!

LeSingeBleu -- ah, no. Traditionally speaking, you don't "throw yourself a party" when you get married or get pregnant. Other people arrange the showers. The wedding is an event that is not primarily about gift-giving (really!) but often a chance to introduce two entire families two one another, and celebrate the forming of a new family unit.

The ONLY time it's appropriate, traditionally speaking, to "throw yourself a party and get presents" is a housewarming.

I normally wouldn't think twice about a "come celebrate the end of my formal schooling" party announcement. But I suspect her parents' reluctance indicates there's some jealousy and/or resentment among the many sibs and possibly their spouses, and I think the Annies are advising her to keep it low-key for that very reason.

If she wants more flash, she can go out and celebrate with friends.

LeSingeBleu -- ah, no. Traditionally speaking, you don't "throw yourself a party" when you get married or get pregnant. Other people arrange the showers. The wedding is an event that is not primarily about gift-giving (really!) but often a chance to introduce two entire families two one another, and celebrate the forming of a new family unit.

The ONLY time it's appropriate, traditionally speaking, to "throw yourself a party and get presents" is a housewarming.

I normally wouldn't think twice about a "come celebrate the end of my formal schooling" party announcement. But I suspect her parents' reluctance indicates there's some jealousy and/or resentment among the many sibs and possibly their spouses, and I think the Annies are advising her to keep it low-key for that very reason.

If she wants more flash, she can go out and celebrate with friends.

Re: Patty Bear--Your parents sound like mine. They kept the college money that I heard about all my life, so I put myself through college and grad school. I had the family at my house for a small buffet after the ceremony, and my father gave me $25.

A year earlier, when he saw my college ring, he said that he'd pay for it. Driving home, my husband said something about that being nice, but I assured him that we'd never see a dime. He would say things like that to make himself look good, but never followed through with any of his promises.

By the time I got my M.A., I was completely estranged from them, so I had my husband's family and some friends over before the ceremony. It would not surprise me at all if my father tells people that he put me through college, when he never contributed a cent. (Other than the $25, of course.)

LW2, hope you read below the lines...
Your parents don't want to make a big deal out of your WELL DESERVED accomplishment because that would make your siblings feel bad that they chose a path with less chance for a future. Picture it this way: You are the pretty sister who finally got recognized in a magazine, and your parents ignoring it, because the rest of the family his hard to look at. I will bet dollars to doughnuts (and man do I LOOOVEEE doughnuts) that this is the reason.

@hedgehog, I'm sorry, but raining on the LW's parade because the other sibs might be jealous is frankly a piss-poor reason for a parent to be so unsympathetic to what is obviously a major achievement in your child's life.

So, the LW should be the one saddled with resentment so the parents can coddle the other adult children? This is how estrangements start, where decades later the parents write in wondering why their adult daughter doesn't speak to them any more.

It's really inexcusable, ultimately.

re: LW2
A couple of posters said to tell her parents that she wasn't angling for gifts. I don't see where she said that they thought that. S/he said they would rather spend money on her wedding than a graduation present.

sarah - since the LW said that she wanted to have the party at her parents house since her college apartment is several hours away, I doubt that she was going to invite "a houseful of college graduates" (#4). I wouldn't have driven several hours for even my closest college friends grad party, especially since we had our own party right after graduation.

nanchan - Maybe people weren't happy for you when you "took that knowledge and and incorporated your company" because you made a big deal about "incorporating" it, and every Tom, Dick & Harry (and Tammy, Denise, and Hillary" incorporates their business these days, no matter how small.

re: LW2
A couple of posters said to tell her parents that she wasn't angling for gifts. I don't see where she said that they thought that. S/he said they would rather spend money on her wedding than a graduation present.

sarah - since the LW said that she wanted to have the party at her parents house since her college apartment is several hours away, I doubt that she was going to invite "a houseful of college graduates" (#4). I wouldn't have driven several hours for even my closest college friends grad party, especially since we had our own party right after graduation.

nanchan - Maybe people weren't happy for you when you "took that knowledge and and incorporated your company" because you made a big deal about "incorporating" it, and every Tom, Dick & Harry (and Tammy, Denise, and Hillary" incorporates their business these days, no matter how small.

Re: C Meier

And how many businesses do YOU own?

LW2: As you can tell from the Annies' answer and the comments here, being the only college graduate in a family isn't a fun, celebrated place to be. You can anticipate a lifetime of alienation and it will be up to you to forego recognition of your academic achievement as well as nearly everything else that happens to you without holding it against your large family. Get used to it. It isn't that they aren't proud of you. It's more that your education takes you away from them, in ways you are just now figuring out.

So be a good sport and try not to be too hurt. You'll be a lot happier if you catch on early, find a good life for yourself, and get used to keeping quiet about it. You may very well be the smart one in the family, and not merely the best educated, but no one will thank you for pointing this out in any way. Congratulations on your graduation!

LW1 -
Question and answer time here:

1. "Does he need to be challenged? Am I being idealistic to think he might change"
You can't reason someone out of an opinion that wasn't acquired through reasoning.

2. "Kevin and I had many wonderful adventures together when we were young."
That was then. This is now. And the "now" is not like the "then".

3. " I find myself walking away from him shell-shocked." (...) "I know we are supposed to keep away from toxic people" (...) "Should I just try to keep my distance?"
Yes. What the Annies said.

LW2 -
You can't share your happiness with people who aren't happy for you. I don't know what their problem is, but they evidently disapprove of you for not getting married instead of educated (as if it was one or the other...), and this is their way of pushing their little editorial.

"Would it be against etiquette to throw myself a party?" Certainly not, especially if you're paying, and particularly not in such circumstances.

Find someone else among your friends where you can have the party, or have it at a convenient restaurant, pub or tavern, and share your happiness with people who actually care.

P.S.: Nice supportive parents you've got there... Kudos to you for walking to your own drum, and not allowing them to rule your choices!

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@Kai Archie #1
"For example, why does it matter that LW's siblings married young?"
The reason I said I don't know what the parents' problem is, is because we don't know the genders involved here: the LW's and the siblings. Let's assume they're all female, and were born into a family like mine. They will have been expected to marry straight out of high school, and not to bother with college, since you need none of that nonsense to wash dishes and make babies, of course. Evidently, the information was relevant to her, perhaps for the hypothesis I formulated... it would make sense. And... what Steve C said.

@Sarah Stravinska #4
"I encouraged them to have a heart-to-heart with a parent about it, and often the parents broke down and admitted that they were envious of the opportunity their child had, and feared the child would look down on them now that they were "smarter" than the parent. "
I'm very happy to find that there is another possible motivation besides wanting to keep women down!

@Mike H #10
"Given that many people are staying single longer, and some never marrying, it's odd that they would put such pressure on you."
For some, the only accomplishment for a woman is snatching a husband. I'm trying hard not to project my own experience here, but this MAY be what's going on here.

@Kitty #12
Saw that. Among other things. ;-D

@Hedgehog #20
"What's most likely driving your parents' refusal isn't the fact that you graduated college and they did not, but that you did and your SIX siblings did not. "
ANOTHER possible hypothesis! ;-D

@cyn #21
"You go, girl!"
And YOU went too, and bouquets and kudos to you also!

@Brent Nowostawski #25
Families like that are unfortunately quite frequent.

When I was 13, my father asked me what I wanted to do in life. I said I wanted to do music. "Tis not a job for a woman", he muttered without even looking me in the eye. (This coming form an orchestra conductor whose mother was a classical singer...) I was pushed into marriage at 19 ("She's in love, let's strike the iron while it's hot") and, given the size of the extended family and the status (as a CBC conductor) that he had to maintain, he spent much more money on my wedding (AND marriage...) than he would have supporting me through college.

When I finally woke up and went to university by myself... Two title roles at the operatic workshop (so much for singing off-key), and no one in the family ever came to see me. Most of the aunts and uncles don't even KNOW I have two degrees in music. Let's rather talk about the boys' latest jingles on telly, right? ;-D

LW2: The most important advice I can give you is to be sure you marry someone whose intelligence you admire. The alienation you already feel in your family is never going to change. Make sure that if/when you decide to spend your life with someone, it's someone you can talk to, read with, be yourself with. If you do this, you'll be much happier. The last thing you need is to battle this anti-intellectual nonsense you have a taste of already in your own bedroom.

LW2: In many cases, it's a class and cultural difference. You've taken yourself out of their subculture, and they know you're probably going to "marry up" and have less and less in common with them. And of course, there are people who value education, and those who don't. There's an excellent book on this, "Marrying Across the Tracks". Very good information on differences in values and responses.
I was fortunate in that my dad, who had several years of business college, made sure all four of his kids went to college. We had neighbors in whose families no one went to college, and some didn't stay in high school after they were big enough to work. And Louisa in #37, that is absolutely true, not just for conversational reasons. My FIL pushed his kids to stay in school, and my MIL pushed them to go to work right out of high school. She would do whatever it took to make a living (not realizing the long-term effect of education) and he was pickier about jobs--and they fought all the time (only two of their 10 kids did go to college, but my husband always wanted to and encouraged all of our four kids to go.)

Re: Lise Brouillette

They don't know you have two degrees in music because clearly you can't support yourself with your degrees. Instead, you sit around on welfare, spending time on multiple advice sites commenting on every post. How shameful, considering that other people are supporting you.

Face it: you are a failure as an artist. Now stop living off other people's efforts and money, and go and get a job.

LW2 - The LW says that all she wants is to use her parents' home for a party that they along with friends & relatives would be invited to. Whether her siblings are married and whatever age they married at has nothing to do with that. That she mentions it at all, and mentions in the way she does - they married 'young' - strongly implies a value judgement between what she did vs. getting married, and criticizes them for marrying "too young". That critical and superior attitude may be standing in the way of her parents' wanting to throw a party for her because they perceive that such a party celebrates one child at the expense of the rest, and they don't want to be a part of that situation. That the parents said they would rather pay for her wedding than this graduation party may show an either or attitude - either you have a party for graduating or you have a party for getting married. However, the daughter has the same attitude - my sibs got married, I graduated - so it's a bit hard to blame the parents for it without blaming the daughter, too.

Re: Dorothy P #39
I see you have a new name under which to post. Your style's the same, though----------------

Re: Dorothy P
Bloom Hilda, is that you? YOU'RE a fine one to talk.

@ nanchan Re: #34

For god's sake will you give it a rest? Look honey, it has become pretty obvious to me and several others here that the reason you spend all day on this and other comments boards is because you're a narcissist. You're so desperate for attention that you spend half your day on social media spinning yarn after yarn around the many, many people you know and your fantastic life experiences growing up the daughter of a judge. My guess is that your desperation was born from a childhood trapped in your sister's shadow, who actually went on to follow in daddy's footsteps, and leaving you clamoring and starving for daddy's attention. So you stumbled about through adolescence and early adulthood, tripped a few times, had a daughter, divorced and now you're apparently on track as a successful business woman. Along the way you picked up a few computer skills, earned a few dime-a-dozen Microsoft certifications and now you fancy yourself an IT professional. Daddy must be soooo proud. So you incorporated a business. So did I; so do lots of people. From what I've gathered, unfortunately, is that your knowledge of IT and the industry is superficial and mediocre at best. Having a little knowledge doesn't guarantee success or automatically ensure customers, income, profitability or that your town's mayor is going to eventually give you a key to the city. Sorry, but you're paying some lawyer a couple of hundred bones for a 'C' or 'LLC' is not suddenly going to elevate you to the creme de la creme of your city's elite. Success comes by hard work, dedication, innovation, and figuring out who knows what you don't know and cultivating relationships that give you an edge. If you want to impress, then stop over-sharing your life's story on advice columns, get off FaceBook and the Internet and start working harder to build your little company into something that will make the rest of us sit up and take notice one day. I'd like to see your picture in 'Wired' magazine one fine day and say, wow, that's that nanchan chick that disappeared from Annie's Mailbox several years ago; she certainly has made something of herself in the Tech world.

Chris, I believe you are correct.
Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

@nanchan re: #34 - I used to be a partner in a CPA firm, but we sold it for LOTS of money. (I seem to remember that you were once a corporate event planner, which means I would have been YOUR boss had my firm hired you for such an event. The first time I met you to plan it, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have hired you, which means you wouldn't have gotten all the MONEY for the event) . However, I don't brag about my career or my family like you do, except for this post, since you asked.

You are an arrogant fool. It's obvious that you don't like me. You apparently mistake me for someone who gives a rats a$$. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

You said that you are teasing Chris when you call him "endearments", and he does the same with you. Based on his comments that day, and particularly today, I believe that you are sorrily mistaken about him teasing you, because you tease people you like.

Chris's post is dead on, other than the fact that he makes it sound like these things have become RECENTLY obvious. It's been obvious to me and I imagine many others for a long time.

The fact that you don't care that men are disrespectful to you because you make more money makes you a whore in my opinion.

You went on and on about how "sweetie", etc. is a term of endearment from people. However, you said that it doesn't bother you because you don't LET it bother you. Which means that it DOES bother you, but you ignore it.

I could point out many other contradictions in your statements, but I'm getting bored with whole thing, but I will make one more comment. You said that I proved your point after my post that said "I'm not playing". I have no idea what you were talking about unless you thought that by "I'm not playing" I meant I took very seriously, and was going to what? beat you up if you kept trying to pick a fight?. I meant that I'm not playing your juvenile games, this post excepted.

Go ahead and reply with all the venom you do to posters you can't stand if you want, but I will not reply from now on. It will certainly not be because I think you "got the best of me". I just don't give a cr*p.

P.S. To the rest of you, sorry about all the caps, but that seems to be a habit of nanchan's lately. And course I really, really want to emulate her (NOT).

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Kvetching Cousins
Comment

Dear Annie: I am 60 years old and have a cousin the same age. "Kevin's" conversations are sexist, racist, immature and extremely self-centered. He mocks people who recycle and told me helping others is "a waste of time." His takes on current events and politics sound like drunken barroom rants. I find myself walking away from him shell-shocked.

I know we are supposed to keep away from toxic people, but Kevin and I had many wonderful adventures together when we were young. We still have our past memories and a few subjects in common. But I'm afraid he is taking my silence during these rants for tacit approval. Does he need to be challenged? Am I being idealistic to think he might change, or should I just try to keep my distance? — Florida Cousin

Dear Florida: Kevin may never change his narrow-minded views, but that doesn't mean you have to sit in silence. If you don't want to cut him out of your life, understand that he is going to say things that bother you, and it's perfectly fine to tell him so. It doesn't require confrontation. Simply say, "Kevin, I strongly disagree with you and don't wish to discuss it further," and then change the subject. If he persists, you have the option of ending the conversation altogether. In time, either Kevin will understand which subjects are off-limits, or you will be spending a lot less time in his company.

Dear Annie: I am the youngest of seven children and the only one who didn't marry young. I am also the only one who attended college. I am graduating in May and mentioned to my parents that I hoped to have a small graduation party with family and close friends. One friend already offered to make my cake.

You can imagine my disappointment when my parents said it was silly to have a graduation party, and they'd rather spend money on a wedding whenever I get married.
Annie, I wasn't asking them to spend money. I just wanted to use the hospitality of their home because my college apartment is a few hours away.

I've worked hard for my degree, and I'm hurt by their lack of excitement. I want to share my happiness. I don't need gifts. Would it be against etiquette to throw myself a party? — Puzzled

Dear Puzzled: It is OK to give yourself a party, but please don't mention your graduation until after your guests arrive. You don't want to give the impression of, "I'm so fantastic and accomplished — bring presents." Simply say you want to have a party. You can then tell them during the event that you are celebrating your degree. Another option is to get together with your classmates and have a group celebration, whereby you are essentially giving a graduation party for one another.

Dear Annie: I read the letter from "Sickened on the East Coast," the mom whose 8th-grade child came home with a questionable summer reading list.

As a teacher and a parent, I know that schools are as respectful as the people in charge. Reading specialists are highly trained professionals who choose books that will help children understand that there are many challenging parts of life that are not pretty. But the responsibility of what children read in their free time still belongs to parents.

Without banning books, "Sickened" can help her child choose material that builds character. Online, she can narrow her search for books that promote specific traits, such as gratitude, honesty, generosity and courage. "Sickened" also could do a web search on "character education," where she will find numerous books written by authors who feel the same way she does. — A Parent First

Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2013 CREATORS.COM

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@hedgehog, I'm sorry, but raining on the LW's parade because the other sibs might be jealous is frankly a piss-poor reason for a parent to be so unsympathetic to what is obviously a major achievement in your child's life.
****************
I'm not justifying it as a good reason, I'm saying it's a possible explanation. One that LW hasn't considered. She has set up "first college graduate" as something the whole family SHOULD celebrate without realizing that it's something that non-graduates can feel threatened by. (My FIL used to love to say, when we had trouble installing an appliance or fixing a screen door"Two college graduates couldn't figure it out!"-- he and MIL were proud to send their kids to college, but he never went, nor did she.)

LW doesn't get to change how supportive her parents are or their beliefs or their limitations. We can diss the 'rents all we like here. They don't want to let her have a party in their home, for whatever reason, there's not much she can do about molding them into more sympathetic parents.

May I give an example?

My parents weren't necessarily the involved, doting grandparents I wanted for my kids, although they weren't toxic. It was frustrating -- these were their only grandkids, and still are.

My choices were to
1) change my own attitude and expectations to accept and be grateful for what they could offer, while using their example as a lesson to grandparent differently when it came to be my time
2) continue chafing
3) end the relationship.

It was best for my mental health to choose the first option. It was much easier to choose it when I realized they weren't trying to rain on my parade, but simply unable to be what I had hoped for, for reasons that really had more to do with their own personalities and circumstances than me, my husband or our kids, and that while it would have been nice for my kids to have had more grandparent time, I ultimately feel sorrier for my parents having missed out on so many of the unique pleasures of being grandparents.

LW's parents feel they can't lend their home for a party. LW can try to argue her case for "no money! just space!" but if she's telling that to the Annies, I suspect she's already tried it with her parents. So at this point, all she can do is:
1) find an alternative way of looking at it
2)stew about what her parents *should* do
3) cut them off.

The most disturbing thing about nanchan is that she keeps coming back to a place where most people do NOT like her. What kind of person would do that? Especially everyday. She has serious mental issues. She does not seem to like any one here either.

LW1: It's sad when people we care about choose to hate life and everyone in it. It's like they want revenge for being born. You don't have to cut him off completely - you can just limit your contact.

LW2: Why isn't it enough for you to celebrate with fellow graduates? Why do you need a party with people you say never went to college and married young? Why do you need the approval of people you don't respect?

Re: Diana
" It's like they want revenge for being born."
LOL!