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Forty Years Frozen
Dear Annie: After more than 40 years of devotion to my husband, I have finally realized what a stonehearted jerk he is. I have done everything in my power to love, respect and encourage him. But I've fallen into a pattern of picking up the pieces of …Read more.
Envying the Enabled
Dear Annie: My brother and sister and I had an amazing childhood. Our parents stressed the importance of hard work and education. The three of us got advanced degrees, and my sister and I entered the workforce after graduation.
Our brother, …Read more.
Kelsey Mately
Dear Annie: My husband's sister "Kelsey" filed for divorce a few months ago. Her soon-to-be ex-husband kept in touch. He told me that Kelsey had been cheating on him with the guy she is currently seeing. I didn't want to believe him, but …Read more.
His Problem Goes Way Beyond Age
Dear Annie: Five months ago, I met "Abby" at my job. We have a lot in common and have become close. We flirt with each other. Here's the problem. Abby is 41, and I am 20. She looks and acts much younger.
Abby is in a terrible relationship …Read more.
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Child From Previous Affair
Dear Annie: Thirty years ago, my husband had a long-term affair. At the time, he was 30, and she was 16. He planned to leave me, and our two young children, but he changed his mind and supposedly broke off the affair. Last year, I found out he had a daughter with this woman. The girl is now 17.
Four months ago, I came home from a short trip to discover he had moved out because he wants to spend more time with his daughter. I told him I would welcome the girl into our family, but he said he no longer wants to be married. He refuses to let me meet his daughter, who now lives with him in his newly renovated home. Our own children want nothing to do with him, and he doesn't understand why.
He still stops by for breakfast and coffee most mornings and often comes over for lunch or in the evening to visit. Do you think he will eventually come back to me, or should I tell him to get lost so I can move on with my life? — Frazzled
Dear Frazzled: Your husband has a set-up that works for him — free meals and visits with his wife, and none of the responsibilities. He has no reason to change it.
You cannot make him behave the way you wish, so if this arrangement works for you, fine. Otherwise, we recommend a legal separation until you figure out what is in your best interest. You don't have to rush into divorce. One step at a time.
Dear Annie: I recently married my longtime boyfriend. My father-in-law is fun to be around and loves to be the life of the party. The problem is, every other word out of his mouth takes the Lord's name in vain. I cringe every time I hear it and don't understand why he swears so much in this particular way. I've tried telling him nicely that I don't like cursing, but nothing seems to make a dent. Any suggestions? — Not a Fan of Cursing
Dear Not a Fan: Dad has a bad habit that will be difficult to break, particularly if he isn't willing to try. Ask your husband to tell his father that you are very sensitive to the swearing, and suggest he try to substitute less offensive words when you are around. You also could employ a sense of humor and exaggeratedly cover your ears and look shocked when Dad swears so he notices when he's doing it. We can't guarantee it will help, but at least you will have registered your disapproval.
Dear Annie: Like "Adopted Child," I, too, was adopted as an infant. At the age of 25, I had some medical issues, so I called the home that handled my adoption to see whether I could get some medical information.
It turned out my biological mother was looking for me. Although my parents were not happy about my contacting her, I did it anyway. For five years, I thought we had a good relationship. But apparently, my birth mother blamed me for ruining her life. She purposefully got pregnant to trap my biological father into marriage, but he wouldn't do it. I was born with a birth defect caused either by a beating he gave her or her attempts to abort me. The defect was repaired at birth, but I carry a hideous scar as a constant reminder that someone wanted me dead. Worse, my biological mother lied to help my ex-husband gain custody of my daughters during our divorce, because she wanted me to suffer the loss of a child as she did.
Meeting this woman was the biggest mistake of my life. Adopted children should be content with the parents who raised them. — Another Adopted Child
Dear Another: Your story is horrific, but fortunately, it's not typical. Frankly, your biological mother sounds mentally ill. We are sorry you had to go through such heartbreak.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM
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99 Comments | Post Comment
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Um, LW1, has it ever crossed your mind that the 17 yr old might not be his daughter, but another underage girlfriend? I mean, really...it sounds like he likes them young, since the gal he was with at age 30 was only 16. And just how did he manage to avoid being labeled a sex offender over that one? Not letting you "meet" the "daughter" makes me think that just one look is all it will take to see there isn't any family resemblance and far too much familiarity.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Jo
Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:42 PM
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LW1 - it is possible that your husband could sour on his current situation after a couple of years, and try to come back to you. When his daughter grows up and moves out, I doubt she'll want much to do with him. The question is, would you want him back? And if so, why? I know it can feel hard to start your life over after being married to someone for more than thirty years. It's understandable that you may be feeling lonely and feel a longing for all this to be over, to return to what seemed to be more comfortable times. But is this man, who committed statutory rape and deceived you about it for decades, someone you truly need in your life? I would encourage you to consult a divorce lawyer and start moving ahead with your life.
LW2 - your father in law's way of expressing himself isn't really any of your business. Try to lighten up. People are not here on earth to keep you in your emotional comfort zone (and have no obligation to do so.) You say he "takes the Lord's name in vain." This is projecting your beliefs on someone who one must assume doesn't share them. If and when you have kids you can tell him it's not okay to swear around them. But it's presumptuous to assume you have the right to tell him, or anyone else, how to talk and communicate around you because of your religious beliefs.
LW3 - My sympathies for your harrowing experiences with your birth mother. Please bear in mind that your scars aren't only a reminder that someone, in a distressed moment, may have wanted to get rid of you. They're also a reminder that you're a survivor. I am glad of one thing in your narrative, and hope you are too: that she gave you up for adoption, and that you were spared being raised by this monstrous woman.
Comment: #2
Posted by: sarah morrow
Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:23 PM
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Wow at Sarah Morrow on LW2! Exactly right!
Comment: #3
Posted by: Ms. Rowena
Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:36 PM
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Re: Jo
You know, thats the first thing I thought of. If his family gets one look at her, they may realize that she isn't his daughter, or worse, realize something very unsavory is going on. I'm actually a little curious to when the letter writer met her future husband. I'd bet dollars to pennies that there is probably a big age difference there too.
LW3:
Your biological mom is a sick sick freak, sorry, but most kids who are adopted are unlikely to have been birthed by such a psychopath. Your experience, while tragic and horrifying is also very unusual and unique. It should discourage others from seeking out their birth moms.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Mookster
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:30 AM
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30 years ago he had an affair, but his "daughter" is 17. Am I missing something here? She must be leaving something out or this is very much not his kid. Either way if their kids are all grown up there isn't any reason to forgive him (where as young children would be a reason to make it work, possibly) I'd say change the locks and send him the rest of his things. If he comes back you can decide if you still want him, but I'd just get a lawyer and be done with him.
Comment: #5
Posted by: MT
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:33 AM
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LW1 said her husband had a "long-term" affair 30 years ago, so the girl could conceivably be his daughter, depending upon how long-term the affair was. However, it's also possible that she IS just a new young girlfriend he's taken up with. The lack of resemblance to the LW's husband won't prove anything, since the girl could resemble her mother and look nothing at all like her biological father. The most telling thing here that makes me think she's possibly a new girlfriend and not a daughter is his refusal to allow the girl to meet his wife and family.
In any event, the LW should decide whether or not she wants to continue to put up with this arrangement in the hope he'll come back. If it were me, I'd find a lawyer and tell my husband the free food kitchen was closed.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Kitty
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:05 AM
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LW1: Wow, I hadn't considered that the new "daughter" wasn't a daughter at all, but reading the commenters it makes a heck of a lot of sense. The "long-term affair" would have had to go on for over a decade for the daughter to be his.
LW1, protect yourself, and prepare yourself for the strong possibility this marriage is over (unless the current arrangement is one you can live with).
LW2: Agree with Sarah. Sure, it's perfectly okay to mention that you aren't comfortable with his language... once. But he doesn't share your beliefs, and that's part of life, getting along with people who don't match our beliefs exactly. Try to focus on his other good qualities, and just learn to ignore the others.
LW3: So sorry you had to go through that. Your tale is a good warning that sometimes these reunions don't go as planned.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:00 AM
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LW1 - Jo said exactly what I was thinking! I bet you this isn't his daughter...it's his new girlfriend. Even though I wonder what 17 year old would want a 60 year old, I still feel it's his girlfriend and that's why he doesn't want his wife to meet her. This man is disgusting!
LW, your husband is having his cake and eating it, too. He gets to live with his 17 year old POA while enjoying your refridgerator. Maybe his new girl toy can't cook or can't shop, which he hates to do, so he goes to your place for meals. Either way, you really need to put a stop to it. The Annie's said not to rush into divorce. Honey, YOU are someone who SHOULD be rushing into divorce. You're husband had at least one long term affair while you were married with an UNDERAGE girl and is now living with another UNDERAGE girl while eating your food. Change your locks and call a lawyer. And I would also tell the lawyer that you suspect this isn't his daughter. Good luck. You deserve better.
LW2 - The only thing you can really do is avoid him. I know you said you like him but that's really all you can do. A friend of a friend once dated a guy who referred to his "frank and beans" constantly. I'm talking every other sentence out of his mouth. It was so annoying!! So whenever she brought him with her to our house (a bunch of girls and I lived together in college), I left the room whenever he started up. If your FIL notices and asks you about it, be honest with him. But don't expect him to change.
LW3 - I'm very sorry you had to deal with that.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Michelle
Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:51 AM
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the second letter writer has my sympathy. there is very little in the form of language that offends me, but what she is experiencing is one of them. years ago i had a boss who was also a personal friend. her favorite expression is what i call neil simon's favorite adjective [g-d this, g-d that]. one evening we were at a party at a mutual friend's house and my friend/boss was two sheets to the wind. she started up again. i very sweetly asked her to please watch her f-cking mouth. she was stunned. it never occurred to her that what she was saying was offensive. i never did get her to break that habit and i never said anything at work, but she did understand that i was offended.
i don't know if the letter writer wants to take that tone with her father in law. i'd suggest discussing it with her husband first.
Comment: #9
Posted by: alien07110
Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:58 AM
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LW1—“Your husband has a set-up that works for him — free meals and visits with his wife, and none of the responsibilities. He has no reason to change it.” The Annie's pretty much nailed it. This man sounds like a narcissist if ever I saw one. Everything is all about what he wants and what works for him; to hell with everyone else. DTMFA. You can deserve better. Make sure you make him pay dearly for his mistakes, as in getting your hands on his newly renovated love nest.
LW2—“ The problem is, every other word out of his mouth takes the Lord's name in vain.” Oh for God's sake!! If this is your biggest problem with your father-in-law? While I can understand an aversion to cursing, I am also a grown-up. You are too. Accept that people will use colorful language or speak crudely and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. To expect your larger than life FIL to substitute “Oh phooey” or “gosh darn it” just to assuage your delicate senses is idiotic. You're a big girl; act like it.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Chris
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:15 AM
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I wonder what all the respectable single guys of the world are thinking when they read about guys like in LW1's letter. Here is a serial adulterer with 2 clinging women when some nice guys can't find 1 woman who they would treat well. Am I the only single guy frustrated by that?
Comment: #11
Posted by: TJ
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:38 AM
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I can't speak for the guys out there, TJ, but the woman in lw1 is probably hesitant about throwing away a marriage of over 30 years because her husband wants to get to know his alleged daughter.
Only the girlfriend and the alleged daughter know what they see in a man who cheats on his wife.
There are plenty of women out there who want a nice guy. Unfortunately, they aren't always looking in the right places.
LW1 will have to work to make this relationship succeed...and I'm not convinced that's possible as the Annies are right in that he has no reason to come back.
Chris, profanity may not be a big deal to you, but is is to a lot of people, especially when used casually, repeatedly and in front of family (read: ladies). Doubtless, her father-in-law is an ordinarily fine person...just not a gentleman, apparently.
LW3: I would have gotten to know Mom really well before letting her into other areas of my life. As with any stranger, you feel them and their personality out. The fact that she was your biological mother didn't make her any less a stranger. So sad that she was able to influence your life in such a negative way.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Wordsworth
Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:32 AM
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Re: TJ
No, you're not the only frustrated single guy out there. I work with a guy who has become a dear friend of mine. I admit that he isn't the most physically attractive man out there, but he is the sweetest, kindest, "would give the shirt off his back for you" kind of guy and he can't get a date to save his life. If he were younger (he's 21 years older than me), I'd date him in a heartbeat. 21 years is just too much for me. But women take one look at him and also see that he doesn't have a lot of money and say "no way." It's a shame. He's "that guy" that sooo many frustrated women talk about wanting to meet.
I have also known complete dirtbags like the guy in letter 1 and they have women at their feet. I don't get it. I have a friend who's longtime boyfriend is a liar and a cheat and treats her like dirt (she has caught him lying and cheating...they're not "rumors) and she's STILL with him and in love with him. The women he cheats on her with are still with him, too. Don't get it at all.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Michelle
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:01 AM
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As an aside regarding LW2 and offensive language, I grew up in a household which had a zero-tolerance policy on bad words, primarily because of my mom, a devout and conservative Roman Catholic. Even the word "hell" used in anger or frustration was forbidden, and it's use would result in a bar of soap in your mouth. "Fiddlesticks" was the harshest word allowed, and this was LAW when I was growing up.
So I myself didn't start using harsher language until well into my college years, honestly.
However, my mother's second husband is a Vietnam veteran, a marine, and to suggest that his language is colorful would be to wildly understate the case. After only about a year or two into their relationship, my mother's lifelong aversion to foul language diminished, and now she drops the "f-bomb" and "g-d this" and several others as if it were nothing. And she doesn't see the big deal, in fact, she feels quite liberated.
So... I guess the moral of this story is that even an extremely firm conviction against using offensive language can change over time, depending on your life experiences and the people you are with; you can find it's not really the big deal you thought it was after all.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:19 AM
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LW1-
If he "no longer wants to be married", what's he doing still hovering, and availing himself to every freebee he can scrounge? Come back to you, what for? This man has a long history of deceit, lying and wanting to have his cake and eat it too - and liking them young.
So he doesn't want you to meet his "daughter", heh? Dollars to doughnuts that she's not his daughter. So he gets his little frosted buttercup to warm his bed and you to warm his stomach. And even if she is his daughter... from the tone of your letter, I get that, for him to have a 17 year-old daughter, he would have had to continue the affair way past the time when you thought it was over. Meaning he was a liar and extremely deceithful at the very least.
Frankly, unless you really enjoy being the resident doormat, you should take example from your children and tell him to get lost. Don't listen to the Annies who are, as usual, pandering to the perpetrator and advocating a continuation of the status quo. Dump him and report him. If she IS his daughter, it should be easy enough to prove. If she isn't, he shouldn't get away with impregnating an underage girl a second time - because this is what's coming, if she's not pregnant already.
LW2-
You can't expect a grown man to reverse the habits of a lifetime to spare your sensitivities. You can't shape the entire world to your preferences. Learn to tune it out and enjoy his other fine qualties or abstain from his presence.
LW3-
"Because she wanted you to suffer the loss of a child as she did"? She suffered no loss, she didn't even want you. She was probably "looking for you" so she could make you pay for the mileage she didn't get out of you. This woman has been consumated with rage and hatred for as long as she's lived. What an enraged bitch. Feel sorry for her family and stay away from her. She's like a human hurricane, spreading death and destruction everywhere she goes.
Perhaps your experience is extreme, but it is not unique. Women give up children for adoption for a reason. Many of them are good women caught up in a situation, who then pick up the shards of their lives and go on to live a productive life. But others are like your bio mother - mentally ill, manipulative, vindictive, destructive, incapable of relating normally, never mind nurturing. Be grateful that she did give you up for adoption, that you were given to good people (it's not always the case) and that you were not raised by her - can you imagine what your life with her would have been like? Count your blessings and move on.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:39 AM
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LW1: Whatever the parentage of the live in teenager, LW, it's time to face some hard cold facts. Your husband has left you and says he no longer wishes to be married. OK, I would give him what he wants and contact a divorce attorney. Everything else BTL is just speculation, although I think the LW's husband is full of hoey saying he had to move out in order to get to know his "daughter". You may want to contact CPS as well, if the underage girl in question is not his daughter, I believe he would be commiting statutory rape in some states and could end up in jail.
LW2: I feel your pain and I disagree with people BTL that this is not a big deal. It IS a big deal for some people. Don't believe me? Look back over some of the comments here at Annies over the last week. And if you are a person of faith, hearing someone take the name of the Lord in vain is uncomfortable. My question to you is, have you talked to your FIL about the fact that this bothers you? He may not know it bugs you, or maybe he does it to shock you. At any rate, if it bothers you you may want to say something to him directly. I wouldn't have your husband intercede for you. You can even make a game out of it, when he says a phrase that bothers you, you say something that offends him slightly (but he's in on the joke, so it's just a reminder). for example if he's a Cubs fan, every time he swears, you say "How about them White Sox?". Swearing can be a hard habit to break, but awareness is the first and most critical step. When I have stopped, whenver I catch myself swearing I literally slap my wrist. Sometimes just interrupting the pattern will stop the behavior.
LW3: I wish LW1's husband would read LW3. IF indeed the daughter in LW1 is his daughter, he would be well advised to know that many hopes and dreams for a fairy tale happy ending result in hopes and dreams hopelessly dashed. As another poster above said, you have to treat these people like you would a perfect stranger. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you went through, but thank you for writing in to the Annies. You may have saved someone else from the heartbreak you went through.
Comment: #16
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:45 AM
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Re: Michelle & T J
If it's any consolation, it's not just women who seem to go for trash. One of the problems of the ex-LOML is that while he "wants" a good woman, but has no use for one. If you look at the women he goes for, they're all whores, cheap sluts, retarded, mentally ill, drug addicts and generally crazy nut cases - trash. The three exceptions that made it to his life, he treated like garbage and lost them all. That includes me.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:51 AM
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I don't get why many of you are hard on LW2; she just doesn't want to hear her FIL say that word, she's not out to change the whole world.
Are any of you members of another religion, like Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist? Would you like to hear the names of those gods taken in vain? I'd be surprised if you didn't mind.
And why should the FIL get off the hook as to showing consideration for his DIL or another person who's offended by his speech, especially when he's in their house? Older people should be held to the same standards as younger ones. Consideration is always a two way street.
-----------------------
Just an aside: some of you are rather hard in your opinions, just think of the possibility it will likely come back to you.
Comment: #18
Posted by: jar8818
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:57 AM
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" Look back over some of the comments here at Annies over the last week"?
There were NO comments yesterday after limniade dropped the F-bomb herself. You all only get wildly indignant when *I'M* the one using it.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:57 AM
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I'm a special fucking snowflake.
Comment: #20
Posted by: limniade
Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:29 AM
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limniade:
Whatever.
Comment: #21
Posted by: jar8818
Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:42 AM
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To the folks here who think that LW2 has the right to control how her father speaks, based on her religious beliefs -- and agree with her because you, too, feel troubled when you hear others use "The Lord's" name colorfully ---- the issue is that one person does not have the right to demand that others change their way of speaking, or dressing, or praying, or whatever, to accommodate anothers' religious beliefs.
Would you put on a burka to please those who feel that the way western women dress is an affront to their "God"?
I'm reminded of a recent story from Israel about religious fundamentalists in that country who were spitting on schoolgirls who passed by, and screaming at them, because the little girls weren't covered head to toe as "the bible commands." They justified their actions by saying that the way the little girls dressed "offended" them. Other fundamentalists (both male and female) said it offended them when women sat in the front of a bus with men. So they demanded that the women move. (Shades of the civil rights movement.)
Whether it's done with violence and threats, "humor" or coercive manipulation, ANY attempt to enforce your religious beliefs on others is wrong. It's infantile to assume the world revolves around what makes you socially comfortable. LW2 needs to get over herself and stop protesting when the world doesn't kowtow to her standards, which are, in the end, arbitrary.
Comment: #22
Posted by: sarah morrow
Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:52 AM
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sarah morrow:
Oh get off your high horse already. This DIL is not spitting on anyone or hitting anyone or segregating anyone, she just doesn't like hearing her FIL use a particular word. ONE WORD that her FIL uses. What's wrong with that? SHE IS NOT TRYING TO CHANGE THE WORLD. She simply wishes her FIL be a little more sensitive when they are in the same room.
I find it arbitrary that you and a few others feel SHE should kowtow to others who want to be potty mouths. How is that any better? People with a few moral standards sure get bashed anymore. No wonder the world is in the shape it's in, it's the lack of standards that made it that way, not the presence of them.
Comment: #23
Posted by: jar8818
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:01 AM
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re LW1 - I agree that the 17 y.o. girl is no kin to LW1's husband. I have an uncle who behaved similarly. He left his wife for an entire decade and lived with another woman. He went home to his wife daily for meals and we are all pretty sure he cheated on his girlfriend with his wife. Some family members joked that he had a morning wife and an evening wife. His wife put up with it for whatever reason and he eventually went back home. I personally could not fathom living like that. Why would LW1 want a man who obviously doesn't care about her?
re LW2 - As adults we are all exposed to profanity on a daily basis - heck it even happens to kids. My son told me this morning that some 4 y.o. at daycare threatened to kick his a--. I told my son that he can not control what other people say, but curse words are inappropriate for him to use and I do not want to hear him swear. Of course a 4 y.o., is no threat to him, but I told him that when someone says something he doesn't like, to walk away. If he feels threatened, then tell the adult in charge. My 7 y.o., understood this concept perfectly - I wonder why no one has ever had such a conversation with LW2?
That stated, I don't think LW is imposing her religious beliefs on anyone else when she feels offended by the misuse of her God's name. Muslims are offended when an image is drawn of their profit Allah and that is their right. The LW does not expect her FIL to share her beliefs, only to show respect for her religion.
LW3 - That story sounds like something straight out of a fiction novel. It may be true, but there seems to be an awful lot more to this story than we are getting.
Comment: #24
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:02 AM
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@Sarah Morrow - No, I won't put on a Burka - but you won't catch me drawing an image of Allah. I wouldn't invite a kosher jewish person to dinner and try to server them non-kosher food. People need not go out of their way to appease others but showing respect really is a simple matter.
Comment: #25
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:05 AM
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I apologize if this double posts. Creators is acting up for me. Sigh.
LW1 - I think the suggestion made BTL that this may not be a daughter but a new "young thing" is very plausible. *shudder*
She might be 17, but the age of consent is still 18 in a lot of states. Just putting that out there...
LW1 needs to close the restaurant services and contact a lawyer, as previously suggested. Gads.
LW2 - I also side with LW2. I'm personally sensitive to swearing because I have an autistic son who is echolalic (in fact I was able to get my husband to almost entirely stop swearing by asking, "You really want to get a call someday from the school principal for that?"). For those who think foul language isn't a big deal, try defending that position when you encounter a five year old who could make a sailor's parrot blush.
It's also a trigger after having people scream swear words at me when abusing me for so many years when I was younger. So it sets off the alarm bells that I can't control with PTSD and drives me into fight or flight mode, and it takes a while to re-center myself. Also, my faith beliefs do factor in to where I stand on this.
It's not to say I haven't used foul language. I'm not perfect... however I prefer not to, and on that note, the times I have dropped a bomb here, I apologize.
A couple people said the other day they see no reason to use foul language if one is able to express themselves adequately and intelligently. I agree. It's like using exclamation points - might be okay in rare instances where you need to punctuate or express yourself, and even then, it's better to do without. If you end up using so many exclamation points that you look like you're channeling Woodstock from the Peanuts/Charlie Brown strips, then you've got a problem... and at that point what you're saying loses its meaning because it just looks and sounds ridiculous.
To LW2, I would say handle it any other way you would if someone doesn't respect your boundaries during a conversation. Let your FIL know you find the swearing offensive and that you ask it stop immediately, at least in your presence.
If he refuses, leave the room. Lather, rinse, repeat. If he asks you about it, tell him that you'd set a boundary for something that is a big deal to you and because he isn't respecting that, you couldn't continue participating in the conversation or stay in the room anymore. He may try to blow you off, but stand your ground - if you are that important to him, he'll reconsider.
LW3 - What a sad story. I'm so sorry your egg donor treated you that way. Mentally ill or not, your bio mother's behavior was evil and you didn't deserve that. I agree your situation may not be that common and other scenarios might play out well for other people, but you still deserve support and I can see why you feel the way you do.
Comment: #26
Posted by: PS
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:06 AM
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limniade - Okay, I have to admit, THAT was funny.
sharnee - "People need not go out of their way to appease others but showing respect really is a simple matter."
Agreed - and sarah morrow, as our resident self-proclaimed therapist who reminds us early and often of that fact (rolls eyes), I would think you out of anyone would know that.
Comment: #27
Posted by: PS
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:09 AM
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LW1 -- As others have said -- if you can live with your relationship with your husband as it now stands (and are prepared to let him continue to define it however he wants without any consideration for what YOU want), then by all means, wait around and see how it goes. Just don't be complaining to the Annies or anyone else if you're not happy with it. Your alternative is to DTMFA. Frankly, that sounds like the better plan to me, but I do understand that it's scary to end a 30-plus-year marriage.
LW2 -- You say you and your now-husband were together for a long time before you got married. Did you not meet your FIL before now? If so, then it's safe to assume you have never told him this bothers you. So, tell him already. Just understand that if you do, one of two things are likely to happen:
1) He will change his behavior out of deference to you, but he will never be truly comfortable with you again and may even clam up when you're around in order to avoid offending you, since obviously this is a vocal habit he's had for a long time.
2) He won't change his behavior, but now you both get to be really uncomfortable every time he says it.
In other words, you run the risk of impairing your relationship with your FIL, and if it gets bad enough, it can also harm your husband's relationship with his father and/or your relationship with your husband. I know this sounds rather dire for something that seems like it should be simple to fix. It doesn't HAVE to go this way, and maybe it won't. Just be aware of the risks before you talk with your FIL about it and be DARN sure saying something about it is worth the risk.
The other question I would ask you is: is your husband offended? Make sure you know where your husband stands on this before you do anything.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:11 AM
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To everyone who says LW2 should lighten up, it's not her business how people speak -okay, you're right. How about someone who sprinkles their conversation with "n" word. See? I can't even spell it out, it's understood to be so universally offensive, at least for whites to say. So you have a FIL who says "n-word" this and "n-word" that. Do you still say to lighten up and it's none of anyone's business? Just asking.
Lise, the only reason limniade got a pass from me is because I shut it down after my comment and go about my day. It's no more offensive when you do it than when she does - you just have a reputation on this board for doing it and the margin for tolerance is getting very slim. It sure took long enough to get you to stop saying "d***ing d***s - as if you couldn't imagine why that was vulgar and offensive.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:20 AM
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@sarah morrow: So, according to your logic, Sarah, if a person regularly uses the word b*tch to describe women, or even more offensively, uses the C word, I don't have the right to request that they not use that vocabulary around me? To request they use less offensive speech (to me) is overstepping my boundaries and not minding my business? I beg to differ, and think the only reason a person would think this way is because this has to do with using the Lord's name rather than another secular swear word.
It is not disrespectful or out of bounds to *request* someone refrain while around you. It is only disrespectful of that person to tell them they have no choice.
Comment: #30
Posted by: kristen
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:31 AM
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TMI ALERT
When I was in pre-school, my mother took a part-time job, so after school on some days, I would go home with my friend "Carrie." Carrie's mom was a devout Catholic who was so offended by any "misuse" of the Lord's name that she would even call me on the carpet for saying "Oh my God!" Now, to me, "Oh my God" is a way of expressing surprise that doesn't take the Lord's name in vain, rather, it's almost like asking God to help you believe what you are hearing/seeing. But at the time, I was maybe 3 years old, so obviously I wasn't able to express that. In the meantime, Carrie's mom had instructed her daughter to, and I quote, "reprogram me" whenever I said "Oh my God." So, if I said it, Carrie would pretend like I was a little robot and would pretend to push buttons to "reprogram me." I thought it was stupid, but I put up with it -- and continued saying "Oh my God" whenever the spirit moved me (no pun intended). One day, I made the mistake of saying it in front of Carrie's mother, who then decided she was going to wash my mouth out with soap. I promptly locked myself in the bathroom until my mother came to pick me up.
I don't think asking someone not to curse is trying to impose one's religious beliefs on someone else -- it is asking someone to respect that you are offended when someone curses. For a lot of people, cursing is like a verbal tic, and it would be very difficult for them to stop. I had a friend who was not well-educated -- she was smart in other ways, sensible, caring and funny. I like her a lot. But it drives me CRAZY when she says things like, "them are good." Her grammar is atrocious. I never said anything to her about it because I didn't want to offend her. One day, she was complaining to me that people didn't take her seriously, thought she was stupid, etc. I told her the problem is that because of her poor grammar, people assume she is stupid, even though she is not. She was appalled, and realized I was probably right. She quickly hired a tutor for her sons. She was middle-aged herself and didn't think she'd be able to change the way she spoke at that point, but she wanted to make sure her sons didn't have the same handicap. The point is, even though the FIL certainly should respect his DIL's feelings, I think she needs to understand that changing some of this stuff is harder than she may think, and the potential for harming her relationship with him may not be worth it.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:33 AM
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Re: Ms. Rowena...WOW, Rowena and Sarah Morrow ~ You both are SO WRONG! I do NOT have to listen to anybody's filthy mouth, especially when they are taking the Lord's Name in vain!!!!! Nobody ~ and I mean absolutely NOBODY ~ will talk like that around me (or mine) and get away with it. So what if it's a "habit". "Habits" are something that a person is NOT BORN WITH, therefore, it/the habit can be broken. If I should keep quiet around some foul-mouthed individual, then I'm just as guilty of it...the foul-mouthing...as he/she is. It's like holding the coat for the bank robber. I will not ever condone such behavior by keeping MY mouth shut when the vulgar language starts!!!!!!
Comment: #32
Posted by: Ms Davie
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:47 AM
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Re: jar8818...THANK YOU, jar8818! Well said. *Cussin'* as we say down South is one thing. Taking the Lord's Name in vain is another matter entirely. If the 'guilty' person (the FIL in this case) has any self respect, he/she will bring his/her *language* under control.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Ms Davie
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:57 AM
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@Ms Davie, if the FIL is visiting her in her house, your point has merit. But if she and her husband are visiting FIL in FIL's home, you'd be wrong.
Freedom of speech includes cursing, vulgarities, and taking any god's name in vain.
In my home, *I* decide what's appropriate speech and what isn't.
You don't have the right to tell me how to talk or what words to use. You DO have the right not to listen, or to leave, if any speech offends you.
That's all the LW can do -- she does NOT have the right to force the FIL to change if he doesn't want to.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:58 AM
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jar8818, I get your point that blue language offends you. What if I were to ask you to stop reiterating that point because I was offended by it?
Comment: #35
Posted by: Carla
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:05 AM
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Dear Annie,
I recently married my long term girlfriend. My mother in law is a nice woman but she does something the offends my religious views. She expresses her opinions in public. I cringe when I hear her do that. She also sometimes corrects her husband, which my minister has told me is a bad thing. The Holy Bible teaches that women should obey their husbands and keep silent. Can you give me some advice on how I can make her be quiet? Should I use humor or should I just tell her outright that I'm offended?
I've tried telling her nicely that I don't like women expressing their opinions but she still keeps doing it. Please advise,
- Not a Fan of Women Speaking in Public because it Offends my Religious Beliefs
Comment: #36
Posted by: Jack Alan
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:10 AM
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@Mike H. - While you are absolutely correct, really this doesn't boil down to a matter of free speech, it comes down to extending a level of respect to those around you. People are not wrong for asking someone to respect their feelings and as a host - I would think that especially in your home you would want to make your guests feel at ease. But, if after politely letting the person whose behavior is offensive to you know how you feel - the only thing left to do is walk away.
There are times where it is inappropriate to speak up though and as grown-ups, you just deal. My Manager happens to be a very religious person - he also happens to swear often, sometimes taking Jesus' name in vain. I notice it every time he does it, but the comments are usually in a forum like a meeting with several others present where it would not be acceptable for me to mention it to him. So, I simply move on. He is a good guy and if we were in a one-on-one meeting and he swore - I would feel comfortable tactfully letting him know that it makes me uncomfortable. I have no doubt that he would modify his speech in my presence. But, he doesn't swear in one-on-one conversations with me (he does with other people on the team, so I am betting that he tailors his mode speech to his audience), so that has never been an issue.
Comment: #37
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:17 AM
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Yep, when I read the first letter, my first thought was "boy, the timing on this affair seems WAY off for the daughter to be only 17." That would mean that even if he ended his affair with the mom immediately after the pregnancy happened, he would have had to keep seeing the woman all through her late teens and 20s, until she was 29 herself. It just seems VERY unlikely that a girl would go through her prime growing years hanging on to an affair with a married guy 14 years her senior for that long, just as she should be developing her independence, and whats more, the wife would hear absolutely nothing about the affair until now, and the guy not paying any child support at all. Plus, where is the mother in all this, the woman he originally had the affair with, if the girl really is his daughter?
I have to agree that the most likely scenario is that he's simply starting a new affair with another teenager.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Paul W
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:21 AM
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I have to agree with Sharnee; this issue of swearing really is more about respect than anything else (including both parties in the letter.) In our country we have the *right* to do and say a lot of things - doesn't mean we should willy nilly. If you are a considerate person who has respect for others, you do try to accommodate others and make them as comfortable as you can - anywhere you are at, not just in your own home.
If someone asks me not to do something that offends them, then I am going to accomodate them to the degree that I can - it's just human decency. Not swearing takes away nothing from you, and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people are standing up for the *right* to swear, and tearing down the writer because she would like to ASK someone (not tell, not enforce, not demand) to refrain from saying certain things. Sorry, but that's just idiotic.
And as someone else pointed out, constant swearing makes you sound unintelligent. It implies that you do not have the capacity to adequately express what you want to say. It also sounds trashy.
I say this as someone who does swear - sometimes I swear more than I should, but usually I save it to add emphasis to something I've said and make a greater statement.
Comment: #39
Posted by: kristen
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:54 AM
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Speak of respect - I referred to Allah as a prophet instead of as the Muslim God (actually I spelled it profit but that is another issue). I am sorry if I offended anyone with my careless typo.
Comment: #40
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:06 AM
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I rarely get a chance to chime in as by the time I get a chance to post anything, it's 8pm EST in Michigan.... and most people have already posted many many sides.....
I was raised Roman Catholic and went to Catholic school for many years.... but no longer can practice (divorces and living in sin did that for me - oh well.... I've expanded my horizens and ideals and have moved on).
I know about the "taking the Lord's name in vain" part. But now that I'm older and much more open-minded to many ideas and different religions.... which Lord would people be referring to? (think about it.... Jesus is probably not a Muslim's "lord", etc)
I'm not into trashing religious figures (I am very respectful on this), it seems that people only pick and choose what religious parts would be offensive to them. If I was raised in a Muslim faith, I probably wouldn't find saying God or Jesus' name (in vain) offensive. It's interesting that so many people cannot conceive that other's would not get this idea. There are many other religions out there people and there are people that have no religion. It seems that some here are getting in a huff at the mere suggestion of taking something in vain.
However, if I cared for someone or wanted them to be around me (or visit me) and if I knew something was offensive to a loved family member or friend, I would make a conscious effort to not offend that person(s). And I would probably tell the individual that I was working on this issue (get it out in the open between the parties). I don't love all swear words but I do use them from time to time... sometimes it's the only thing that can be said. However, I don't like hearing F this and F that.... I might ask the person to tone it down a bit (ASK not TELL or DEMAND).
Comment: #41
Posted by: Abby Normal
Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:20 AM
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“If I was raised in a Muslim faith, I probably wouldn't find saying God or Jesus' name (in vain) offensive.”
Not to be over the top annoying, but I dated a Muslim for a really long time and his family would not allow either God or Jesus' names to be taken in vain in their home. God and Allah are used interchangeably, so neither should be taken in vain. And Jesus is a great prophet in Islam and he needs to be shown high respect. I'm sure every Muslim family is different and I can't speak in blanket terms, but that was my own little experience.
Anyway, sorry to be super obnoxious and point that out, Abby Normal, because 1. I really like what your post was saying and I feel like I'm being the equivalent of a grammar Nazi by pointing out one small thing and 2. I really really like your name :)
Comment: #42
Posted by: Casey
Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:54 AM
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LW1 is a moron and a doormat, probably why she attracted such a man in the first place. She clings, probably because she's terrified to be alone, and hopes for the scraps from his table, that is who she is. I would suggest she divorce him NOW but she won't because she'll take whatever scraps he throws her way and when his 17 year old gf (go ahead, keep telling yourself that's his daughter) gets tired of him he'll come back to the doormat that's waiting for him. She shouldn't "rush to divorce" or "throw away" a 30 year marriage? It was thrown away long ago, she just doesn't want to acknowledge it. What a great example of how women should be treated she'd provided for her kids. I kicked my "women are less then men and exist to serve them" ex husband out precisely because I didn't want my sons growing up to think that's how women are to be treated.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Kim
Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:55 AM
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Re: Jack Alan...You don't know your Bible as you apparently think you do. The Apostle Paul, whose writings you are quoting in your post, was an avowed woman hater. Please don't take anything in the Bible...or any other Holy Book, for that matter...out of context just to suit your own agenda. Do a little research - get a little background information - first. Then you can make a more~informed comment. No religion accepts the slurring of their Almighty Leader's name ~ whether it be God, Allah or one who is called by another name ~ regardless of the *circumstances*. ("Excuses" might be a better word for a person's crudeness and lack of manners.)
Comment: #44
Posted by: Ms Davie
Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:56 AM
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Sorry if this is a duplicate post, but I can't see if it posted the first time I posted.
LW1: Whatever the parentage of the live in teenager, LW, it's time to face some hard cold facts. Your husband has left you and says he no longer wishes to be married. OK, I would give him what he wants and contact a divorce attorney. Everything else BTL is just speculation, although I think the LW's husband is full of hoey saying he had to move out in order to get to know his "daughter". You may want to contact CPS as well, if the underage girl in question is not his daughter, I believe he would be commiting statutory rape in some states and could end up in jail.
LW2: I feel your pain and I disagree with people BTL that this is not a big deal. It IS a big deal for some people. Don't believe me? Look back over some of the comments here at Annies over the last week. And if you are a person of faith, hearing someone take the name of the Lord in vain is uncomfortable. My question to you is, have you talked to your FIL about the fact that this bothers you? He may not know it bugs you, or maybe he does it to shock you. At any rate, if it bothers you you may want to say something to him directly. I wouldn't have your husband intercede for you. You can even make a game out of it, when he says a phrase that bothers you, you say something that offends him slightly (but he's in on the joke, so it's just a reminder). for example if he's a Cubs fan, every time he swears, you say "How about them White Sox?". Swearing can be a hard habit to break, but awareness is the first and most critical step. When I have stopped, whenver I catch myself swearing I literally slap my wrist. Sometimes just interrupting the pattern will stop the behavior.
LW3: I wish LW1's husband would read LW3. IF indeed the daughter in LW1 is his daughter, he would be well advised to know that many hopes and dreams for a fairy tale happy ending result in hopes and dreams hopelessly dashed. As another poster above said, you have to treat these people like you would a perfect stranger. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you went through, but thank you for writing in to the Annies. You may have saved someone else from the heartbreak you went through.
Comment: #45
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:00 AM
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Thanks Casey.
I learned something new today. I didn't realize that the God and Jesus name were offensive to the Muslim faith. You don't have to apologize for pointing out things to me (respectivefully, of course :-) - and you definately weren't obnoxious. I love to learn new things and try to see all sides to situations. I thought I had read/heard some Muslims looking down on "God" so I had the impression that the God name didn't mean anything to the Muslim faith. Glad to hear it's not this case in all Muslim faiths.
Thanks about the name part :-) One of my favorite movies is Young Frankenstein, so I borrowed the "character" from this movie.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Abby Normal
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:01 AM
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@sharnee, of course -- but the point I want to make is that it *should* go both ways. Not everyone who is offended by something *should* be offended by something.
I'm just not certain that LW2 isn't the one who should loosen up a bit, rather than expect everyone around her to change on her behalf.
This consideration for other people's feelings should be extended equally to the FIL.
LW2 says that her FIL is fun to be around. She obviously likes him. This is one part of his personality which she certainly can mention bothers her, but I don't believe she has a right to demand or expect him to change to suit her beliefs. Yes, it would be kind and polite and respectful; but on the flip side, don't his choices also deserve some respect?
All in all, given that she seems genuinely fond of him, this seems like a bad issue to stake her relationship with him on. Bring it up, if he changes, great; if he doesn't, learn to live with it somehow.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:05 AM
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Regarding swearing and intelligence, my stepfather is a Vietnam vet, a marine who swears, well, like a marine. He's also one of the most thoughtful and intelligent men I've encountered.
People who equate "swearing" with "sounding unintelligent" are doing nothing more than expressing a prejudice and bigotry of their own.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:13 AM
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@Abby Normal -- PUT THE CANDLE BACK!
Comment: #49
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:22 AM
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@Mike H - I didn't get the impression that LW2 was planning to stake her relationship with her FIl solely on this issue. But as Nanchan pointed out some religious offenses are not a small matter to some people and I agree with you that she should mention this to him.
To your point about consideration for the FIL's feelings - well yes and no. Consideration for his feelings come in to play in the way LW2 handles the discussion. If she approaches him tactfully, then she is considering his feelings. But I also say no because when a person's behavior defies conventional ettiquette - which to my knowledge the standards on cursing have not changed greatly- then that person by definition is being rude.
In my personal opinion, a person who uses an expletive every-other-word is on par with a person who chain smokes. They may be nice people, but I wouldn't want to spend a great deal of time in either person's presence.
Comment: #50
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:22 AM
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@Abby Post #46 I know what you meant because I read the previous posts, but in case somebody missed it earlier, it's not the names of God and Jesus that are offensive to Muslims, it is the taking them in vain, just as it is to Christians.
Comment: #51
Posted by: C Meier
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:23 AM
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LW2 -- just reread this letter, given the firestorm it has caused here at the ol' BTL. Apparently LW2 has, in fact, said something to the FIL already about his cursing. Since she has already told him how she feels about this, and he either can't or won't change, she has three options:
1) tell him again that it makes her uncomfortable and ask if he would please refrain.
2) leave the room every time he makes her uncomfortable.
3) accept that he can't/won't change, love him in spite of this and just move on.
Options 1 and 2 are likely to change her relationship with him, and probably not for the better. Option 3 leaves her occasionally cringing but also leaves her relationship with him intact. We don't even have to engage in the raging debate about taking this or that god's name in vain and which religion has a problem with it or not. She simply needs to understand what her options are, what are the potential consequences of each option and then decide what is more important to her: changing her FIL's language or maintaining a good relationship with him. Don't get me wrong, it is not a given that the FIL is going to be hurt, angry or offended if the LW tries to address this with him again, just as it is not a given that the FIL can't or won't change after being asked again. The LW know this man better than we do. And her husband knows him even better than she does. She should discuss this with her husband to determine if it is worth bringing it up again.
Comment: #52
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:32 AM
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@Lisa - I didn't realize this discussion was a "raging debate" it seemed to be a pretty tame discussion to me. I also don't think for the most part anyone was referring to one religion - just a general show of respect for the sensibilities of others.
But you are correct, LW2 has mentioned this to her FIL at least once (I had to re-read this myself) and now can only either ignore it or remove herself from the situation.
Comment: #53
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:49 AM
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LW2: When your FIL takes the Lord's name in vain, say "Forgive him, Lord". That response should be no more offensive to him as his swearing is to you.
Comment: #54
Posted by: Mary Ann
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:58 AM
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In regards to lw2-
Growing up, my father was baptist (converted to roman catholic to marry my mom) and my mother was catholic. I was in a catholic school until third grade when I was switched to public schooling. Third grade is when all genuine instruction in Christianity- from anybody- stopped. My parents only brought us to church on easter and Christmas, and they always argued over the mass on the way home (from a protestant and catholic perspective). The only thing they really ever agreed on religion wise was the "no swearing" rule in the house. Any use of the swear word would result in a slap across the face. This included mild foul language like pxss and crxp.
These inconsistencies are probably why I started church hopping and exploring other religions in high school. My first semester of college, I settled on Judaism as the religion I agreed most with, but I never officially converted because you don't just convert to Judaism. It is a year long process of classes at the bare minimum, and because of my schedule (I was a full-time student who also was working full-time to pay for school) I just didn't have any time for this. I was lucky enough to get my work to give me time off to go to the synagogue every week for the sabbath. I still learned a lot about Judaism over the months and years though (I actually know more about Judaism than Christianity...), and it may have been a good thing it was never official because two years ago, an instructor at my college managed to convert me back to Christianity by explaining the things I had issue with about the religion. It is a good thing so much is required to become Jewish. Right now, my belief system most closely aligns with messianic judaism, but I just say I'm Christian cause officially I was never Jewish.
I said all this to say this much. Even when my belief was in Judaism, hearing Jesus' name in vain still made me cringe. It was a reflexive habit from the way I was raised, and it was so ingrained into my psyche it was impossible not to cringe. What offends a person can be very deeply ingrained into them, so much so that it hurts the heart just to hear it. Such a thing can literally be part of who a person is in essence, and not just a preference. For me, hearing G-d's name in vain literally hurts the heart. It is something only to be used for praise and worship, not as an exclamation point or show of excitement. I do ask people not to say it around me so carelessly, and a simple, "Yes, He does exist," whenever they use it in vain typically gets the point across, followed by them saying, "alright, alright," and then watching their tongue.
It's not about forcing religion on someone else. Freedom OF religion has since become freedom FROM religion. It is easy to forget people who follow religion deserve respect as well. I am not trying to convert anyone to Christianity, and when I believed in Judaism, I certainly was not trying to convert anyone. Their constant swearing of His name simply made it painful to be in their presence, and I wanted to enjoy their presence. It is as simple as this.
Comment: #55
Posted by: Maria
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:58 AM
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@Mary Ann - LOL!
Comment: #56
Posted by: sharnee
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:08 PM
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LW1 - you're a doormat. It sounds like your hubby has a new girlfriend, or else he's cheated on you for more than a decade without mentioning it to you or your noticing. Who cares if he comes back to treat you to more of that? Change the locks, move the money from your joint accounts to your own single account, get a lawyer and then get a divorce.
LW2: so many judgmental people here that think you have no right to object to hearing cursing or even to personally dislike it. I wonder if all these free language people would take the same position if your fil routinely called women the c word and the b word? or used racial slurs for people of other races and countries? It's just not PC any more to stand up for religious beliefs and sensitivities. The Annies' advice, as usual, is terrible, to make a joke out of your feelings and act like an idiot just to get your FIL's attention. However, I don't think there's much you can do if you're in your fil's home, because it's his house & he sets the rules. In your own house, you and your husband can set your own rules and enforce them as you see fit. If FIL doesn't change, with any luck, he'll someday hear his grandkid repeat what he just said and realize how terrible he sounds.
Comment: #57
Posted by: kai archie
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:45 PM
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Re: Mike H: bigotry and prejudice...against...what? Swearing? Sorry, but throwing around bigotry and prejudice puts this on the same level as racism, etc. and it absolutely does not belong there.
No one ever said that your stepfather, or anyone else who swears, isn't considerate or intelligent. I simply said that people who regularly swear in their common speech tend to SOUND unintelligent. Sounding unitelligent and being unintelligent are completely different from each other.
I also was saying that if you are asked to please watch your swearing because someone finds it offensive, it *is* the considerate thing to do to put a lid on it, or at least try.
I also stated that I swear from time to time, as do most people I know. But we all also watch what we say around parents, in the workplace - you know, finding the levels of appropriateness.
Comment: #58
Posted by: kristen
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:05 PM
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@sharnee, given the changes I've seen just within my lifetime about words that used to be taboo but are no longer, I think you're a bit off-the-mark in suggesting that standards haven't change. They've changed, and changed dramatically.
I personally think, if one or two attempts to make him understand how this makes her feel haven't changed the situation, then it's in her best interest, and her husband's, for her to just figure out a way to get over it. Silently say a little prayer for him every time he does it if she must, but this is the kind of thing that, if she pushes, she ends up looking small-minded and divisive.
It obviously doesn't bother her husband -- so her husband is either not as religious as she is, or he's recently converted to her religion. I'm guessing the former, because if her husband were her ally in this particular issue she'd most likely have mentioned it in the letter.
So, assuming her husband doesn't mind, her FIL doesn't want to change, and possibly no one else in the family bothered by it... I really think the burden is on the LW to find a way to gracefully handle her discomfort, once she made her feelings clear.
Comment: #59
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:19 PM
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@kristen, that's just a rationalization -- if you are assuming that someone who swears sounds unintelligent, you are making an uninformed -- and as you yourself admit, unfounded -- judgement about someone.
A prejudice is a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. Prejudiced is exactly the right way to describe the thought that someone who swears sounds unintelligent, because the two are not related, and plenty of us know of intelligent people who swear.
There are small prejudices and large prejudices, but my use of the word was absolutely accurate, kristen.
Comment: #60
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:23 PM
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@sharnee -- you're right -- I exaggerated when I called it a "raging" debate, though I do believe some folks are pretty heated on the topic of religion (even though, as I noted, this isn't even ABOUT religion, really). Because religion is a hot-button issue, the substance of this debate has gotten a little off kilter here and there. But, for the most part, I think we're behaving pretty well!
Comment: #61
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:24 PM
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You know, upon further reflection, I am sorry that I'm being quite so vociferous about the vulgarity issue. I haven't changed my mind on LW2's issues, don't get me wrong -- but I do feel that I'm just speaking a little bit more bluntly than I think I should; I think, in part, because I'm terribly fond of my stepfather and I guess I'm sort of feeling the need to "defend" him here. Which, on the face of it, is rather silly.
I still do think that, given that LW2 has already made the attempt, it's probably best for the whole family if she no longer makes a big deal of the issue and finds a way to accept the situation; however, I should be more sympathetic for the discomfort she's feeling, even if I think she should find a way to handle it.
Comment: #62
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:47 PM
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Re: Chris
My parents were not saints but they never swore in front of us kids. It took me years, seriously, to realize what them meant when they frequently told each other to "Go scratch yourself!"
Comment: #63
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:52 PM
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Mike,
I think it is fantastic that you understand that your opinion is slanted by your feelings about your stepfather. Nobody can say with certainty that using bad language equates with stupidity, but I think that if we look at the folks we have met over the years, GENERALLY, it is not the most intelligent of folks who frequently resort to the four letter words. And the most eloquent and intelligent find words that are not offensive to make their points, even emphatically.
Comment: #64
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:17 PM
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@ kai archie
"I wonder if all these free language people would take the same position if your fil routinely called women the c word and the b word? or used racial slurs for people of other races and countries?"
What makes you think my FIL doesn't? My partner's father was a Marine. He routinely peppered his speech with all manner of politically incorrect epitaphs. I never considered him prejudiced because, frankly, he picked on everyone equally. For the record, he was one of the hardest working, most intelligent men I ever met! I considered his colorful language as a facet of his personality and he endeared himself to me all the more because of it. I stand by my statement that LW2 needs to accept her FIL for who he is and either lighten up or leave if she's so sensitive.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Chris
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:18 PM
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@ Carly O
"GENERALLY, it is not the most intelligent of folks who frequently resort to the four letter words. And the most eloquent and intelligent find words that are not offensive to make their points, even emphatically."
I disagree. I work as a research chemist. I am fortunate to work with some of the most brilliant minds in my industry; many hold doctorates (some more than one.) If I had a nickel for every time one of my esteemed colleagues uttered the F-bomb during the course of the day, I'd have retired several years ago to a secluded island. Has it occurred to you that some people might use shocking language as a way to make their point emphatically? It certainly does have the effect of getting ones attention.
Comment: #66
Posted by: Chris
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:22 PM
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@ Mike: who ever said that I was making a judgment on someone's intelligence? I never said that I hear the prolific swearing and think "my, there's an unintelligent individual." Didn't come out of my mouth, and it didn't get typed onto the keyboard.
Because I am human, yes I do form preconceived notions about the character one might have based on the traits they exhibit. You do exactly the same, whether you admit it or not. How people speak IS just one of the ways that we form our first impressions. There is no getting around that.
But it would be bigotry and prejudice ONLY if I were to make a definite determination that this person IS unintelligent based on my first impression. I don't do that. I rarely form a definite character assessment based on solely a first impression - I try to find out who a person is and form my opinion as I go along.
It is not bigoted nor is it prejudicial to think "hmmm, all that swearing sure makes him/her SOUND like they aren't terribly smart...wonder if I'm correct."
That's not rationalization, Mike. That's the way that the 99.9999% of humans operate, and if you say you don't do the same you are not telling the truth.
Comment: #67
Posted by: kristen
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:51 PM
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Re: Ms Davie...My post #44 should have saiad "as well as you think you do." Sorry 'bout that. Typing too fast, I guess!
Comment: #68
Posted by: Ms Davie
Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:52 PM
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@ MS Davie post 32
Power to you, I totally agree !!
LW 2 - So, FIL has been cursin/taking Lord's name in vain for quite some time as LW just married her longtime BF. LW lets FIL know that the cursing bothers her, but he does it anyway. Sorry to say, but he's NOT going to change his ways. If LW is visiting him (his house), not a whole lot she can say as it's his house, BUT, if it were me (LW), I would just up and leave. I mean really, who needs to listen to this if it bothers you ?
If he goes to visit his son and LW (their house) and has a string of "not so nice" words, then he is WAY OF LINE.
WHat about when LW and husband start having children? Yeah, toddlers are very impressionable, they'll pick up these words very quickly from Gramps. LW's husband needs to have a serious talk with Pops.
A friend of my husband's stopped by the house one day, to talk shop. He dropped the F-word in every other sentence. I was in the kitchen, the guys were in the living room, I could hear this, I walked in and nicely asked him not to talk like that in OUR house. My husband just glared at me as if I just said a nasty word. I gave him "the look" and said that cursing bothered me. Our son was 7 years old at the time, he was in his room, he heard him too, as he told me later that he heard "daddy's friend say the F-word, a lot". After the friend left, I told my husband that if he came again and talked the way he had, then he was NOT welcome in our house. Appaently, my husband said something to him at work as it never happened again.
It's 12:30 AM here, way past my bedtime. Good night folks !
Comment: #69
Posted by: Gwen
Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:30 PM
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Re: sharnee Post #25
A Jew eating Kosher wouldn't even accept an invitation to dinner in a place where the entire house is not kept Kosher... It goes beyond just the food. ;-)
@Lisa Post #28
Couldn't agree with you more. Clap clap clap clap clap clap!
@Maggie
"How about someone who sprinkles their conversation with "n" word? "
Actually, that is very different. The reason the "N" word is so offensive is because of the racism (and the history) behind it, and THAT is what is offensive, not the word itself. There is no racism or any kind of discrimination against a particular group in four-letter words. They're just crude, that's all.
As for the "reason (limniade) got a pass from you", well, you're hardly the only one on this board and, to this minute (18:30 local time), it STILL hasn't been adressed negatively by anyone, not just you. That's called a double standard.
As for "my reputation", on what is it based exactly? The odd 6-10 time I might have dropped a real expletive here in the 16 months I've been posting? One Annies instalment a day with an average of three posts each from me (at least), that adds up to almost 1500 posts, which averages to about one F-bomb or whatever per 150... even less if you factor in Dear Margo and Amy Alkon and the very occasional other post elsewhere on Creators. OMG, one $#%?&* in 150 posts, no WONDER I have such a reputation!
If I was someone who peppered every other post with profanity, you're have a point. But it's not the case. The truth of the matter is, you're vastly overreacting, and you would rather continue fighting for the right to be wrong than see it. You and the rest of the posse.
@Mike H
Right on!
@Jack Alan
LOL!
@Abby Normal
The ex-LOML (Muslim) told me that the Prophet instructs all good Muslims to "stand up in defense of Jesus Christ against anyone speaking ill of him". And yes, Allah and God are one and the same, so devout Muslims wouldn't take kindly to any disreprect towards either. Although a wild allergy to the word "damn" in unlikely to be too frequent IMHO.
@Maria
"Even when my belief was in Judaism, hearing Jesus' name in vain still made me cringe."
Jewish people do not discount Jesus Christ nor do they have such contempt for him that they would agree with him being disrespected. As I'm sure you know, to them he was merely a rabbi and not the Messiah.
@Kai Archie (and Kristen)
"I wonder if all these free language people would take the same position if your fil routinely called women the c word and the b word?"
What I told Maggie about the "N" word. Using the word "bitch" in a sentence is not the same as calling every woman one.
Comment: #70
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:36 PM
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@kristen, I disagree, you're basically saying that all humans have prejudices (which is true) and then trying to dance around to make it seem like this particular kind of prejudice isn't a prejudice but is really really like a prejudice only not.
It's a form of pre-judging, of making an assumption about someone based on a behavior that has nothing to do with what you're assuming about them.
It's not as bad a prejudice as racism or homophobia, but yes, regardless of whether you want to face it or not, it is a form of prejudice to think that people "sound unintelligent" if they use vulgar language.
It may be a prejudice you think is worth having, or that is useful, but that doesn't make it any less of a prejudice. I think you're just playing with semantics a bit, to be honest.
But perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
Comment: #71
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:12 PM
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@Carly O, while I appreciate your kind words, you're actually not correct with the latter half of your statement. I've had the privilege of attending and working at some of the top universities in the world, worked with hundreds of students and faculty who are tops of their field, and I can *assure* you that these people -- with IQs that put them in the top half-percent in the word -- use profanity with a regularity that would obviously surprise you.
So, no, you really really cannot make the assumption that "most" people who regularly use profanity are less intelligent. It's just not accurate.
And that's kind of what I'm trying to say -- and actually provides a nice example of what I'm trying to say in my disagreement with kristen's point as well.
Comment: #72
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:16 PM
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Chris,
How is it emphatic or shocking to resort to the F-bomb if you and your colleagues it all day every day?
I work for a huge telecom company, and I can see that the science crowd may have a totally different environment that what I am used to, but even a toddler will stop using the bad words if they don't get any attention. Anything that is heard all the time does not impress. Do you still pay attention to the flight attendant telling you what to do in an emergency?
Chris, I usually agree with you, but not this time.
Comment: #73
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:18 PM
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Well, Mike, if I am wrong, and I can see that you and Chris can provide some really good examples, my experience in corporate America, has given me a different experience. Granted, I only have a Masters, so maybe I haven't worked my way up to offensive language as a regular thing.
I concede the point, but I reserve the right to think it is sad.
Comment: #74
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:23 PM
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Re: Carly O
"How is it emphatic or shocking to resort to the F-bomb if you and your colleagues (do) it all day every day?"
I think a few people here are confusing "using it very occasionally to make a point", and putting three of them in every sentence every day all day long.
Comment: #75
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:27 PM
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Mike,
I speak from my experience currently working in the finance department of the huge telephone company. If I am wrong, and you and Chris have provided some good evidence that educated people like the bad language, I guess it comes down to different environments. I only have a Masters degree so I guess I haven't worked my way up to bad language all day every day.
Like I said, I may be wrong about other environments, but in my world it just does not happen. I reserve the right to think it is sad that people can't communicate better. Are they only words.....of course, but some people are offended.
Comment: #76
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:31 PM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
Lise,
Read. I was responding to Chris's comment that he could retire if he had a nickel for how many times he hears his colleague use the f-bomb.
Comment: #77
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:35 PM
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iYou jois ot use bad workd or you nwioimkl go to hell because the bible says you should only not take the loireos name in vain. bad bank one.1mu motje wjhen I was litjtolne she would tell and shin sif you do you will go to hellm so god will not foreivne you.
Comment: #78
Posted by: Lolley
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:59 PM
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Yeah Lolley you hit the nail on the head on that one.
Comment: #79
Posted by: Mike Raymond
Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 PM
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Lolley, welcome back. Your keen insight has been missed.
Comment: #80
Posted by: sarah morrow
Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:09 PM
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@ Carly O
"How is it emphatic or shocking to resort to the F-bomb if you and your colleagues it all day every day?"
First, may I clarify that I myself do not drop the F-bomb (or other expletives) with any frequency during work (or any other time for that matter.) I actually agree with you that there are better ways to make a point. By telling you about my potty-mouthed colleagues, I was merely trying to illustrate that highly intelligent folks will use foul language with regularity whether to make a point or not. Your earlier statement implied that those who use foul language aren't the most intelligent. That's the point to which I disagreed. In other words, I think we're on the same page mostly.
Comment: #81
Posted by: Chris
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:08 PM
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And I'll echo Chris' statements. I *never* use profanity in a professional environment, but that's not why I've mentioned this.
But, as should hopefully be clear by now, use of profanity says *absolutely zero* about someone's intelligence level, and it's probably well past time to put that old canard out to pasture.
And, in the 1980s, when I worked at a marketing firm, the executives there had no trouble at all with the occasional f-bomb or "g-d----t". But maybe the corporate world's gotten more genteel in the interim.
Comment: #82
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:18 PM
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Re: Carly O
I was speaking in general... about what is going specifically here. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
More specifically, I find that it annoying that the 'few people here who are confusing using it very occasionally to make a point, and putting three of them in every sentence every day all day long', are also treating the ones using it very occasionally as if they were polluting every sentence with three bombs. Even more specifically that they be applying this gross generalisation and exaggeration to me and nobody else... you know?
Again, I am not talking specifically about you - don't know if it applies and certainly wouldn't want to accuse erroneously.
And - further to what Chris said... I have a good friend who is VERY potty-mouthed. In times of anger or stress, she is quite capable of polluting almost every sentence. I tolerate it when it happens because she is otherwise articulate and a very good friend. She majored in English, and so it is not a question of poor vocabulary.
I personally would not be interested in associating with someone who ALWAYS uses three profanities per sentence any more than I'm interested in drowning absolutely everything I eat in cayenne pepper.
I think no one here will dispute that I'm not exactly lacking in the English department... But I love cayenne pepper on some things, just like I WILL (very occasionally) use crudity when I find that this is the *exact* word I need. It doesn't make me less intelligent and, with two degrees on the way to three, it sure ain't because I'm uneducated.
Comment: #83
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:52 PM
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Once again, Lolley put it in a nutshell.
Comment: #84
Posted by: jar8818
Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:55 PM
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OK, I give up. All of you educated people, curse away like rappers. I am wrong. Let us continue to dumb down everything that is decent among us. You win.
I concede... no need for anything gracious anymore. Except I think you don't want to believe this if you have children to raise.
Comment: #85
Posted by: Carly O
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:08 PM
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Re: Carly O
I am not aware that the addition of one word to any of my posts takes away any of the numerous others... it's an addtion, not a substraction! ;-)))))))
Comment: #86
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:23 PM
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"Except I think you don't want to believe this if you have children to raise. "
Okay, funny story here:
When my daughter came to live with me after my father became ill, I had just moved to a new place with my left leg in a cast. Setting up shelves, moving furniture into place and unpacking was difficult, especially since I was also working full-time.
Now, in spite of my (very occasional ;-) use of profanity in print, I don't swear when I speak... Except if I hurt myself acutely and stupidly, like stubbing a toe painfully, barking a shin or bumping my head on something sharp. Then I'll let out a string of invectives, of the religious kind typical to Quebec French, the more colourful as the pain is more severe. I'm being mad at myself, really.
I was driving in some anchors in a gyprok wall, to received shelving tracks. I hit myself on the thumb with the hammer. You have to drive the anchor in with one single blow or it crushes and doesn't go in, so the blow has to be heavy, and so I hit myself pretty hard. In the split second I was drawing breath to let it all hang out, I see my 11 year-old, fast as lightning, clamp both hands over her ears with her eyes screwed shut.
I started laughing so hard that I dropped the anchors on the floor and it took us both half an hour to find them all. She remembers that incident very well, and we laugh merrily every time one of us brings it up. Ah, happy memories of motherhood! ;-)
P.S.: She doesn't swear at all.
Comment: #87
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:39 PM
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It is also good to say "Blessed by the name of the Lord my God" twice when you hear the Lord's name used in vain. I say it quietly under my breath -- and my kids love to join me.
Comment: #88
Posted by: Lynda Hemmerling
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:40 PM
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Heh. Carly O, again, you're equating swearing with "dumbing down", but that's not the point. There's nothing dumb about swearing, it's just a word.
Graciousness, sure, I'll give you -- but there's lots of ways that people are being less gracious to each other that has nothing to do with use of vulgarities, too.
For myself, if someone treats you respectfully but still swears, that's a LOT better than a disrespectful person who uses "nice" language.
But, obviously we've reached an impasse, and again, agreeing to disagree may simply be the best way to put this behind us and move onward to other letters and issues.
Comment: #89
Posted by: Mike H
Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:29 AM
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@jar8818, #84, really? Wow. I found Lolley's profanity-laden screed completely inappropriate for this forum!
Comment: #90
Posted by: Mike H
Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:30 AM
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Re: Mike H--'Carly O, again, you're equating swearing with "dumbing down", but that's not the point.'
perhaps delete the phrase 'dumbing down' with lowering of standards, i do think carly o. makes a valid point.
every once in a while son2 will let fly with neil simon's favorite adjective and i will let him know that i don't appreciate his choice of language. i seldom even notice when people let f-bombs fly, but that one will grab my attention immediately. i used to be pretty liberal with my use of the f-bombs myself but i decided i didn't like the image that conjured up. it took me a year or two to stop but eventually i did. i save them now, for special occasions.
Comment: #91
Posted by: alien07110
Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:00 AM
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"i save them now, for special occasions."
To all -
That is the distinction I keep trying to make - saving them for special occasions.
Which is certainly what I have been doing. Once every few weeks or even months, I'll see fit to drop one. And yet I get treated like I use them with every other word. Interesting that three other people used the F-bomb since I called that snake in lust with her friend's huband what she deserved to be called, and nobody even batted an eye. Such bad faith and arrant hypocrisy.
Comment: #92
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:46 AM
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@Lise - Yes, my knowledge of the practices of other religions is sketchy at best but I hope my point was not lost. Out of respect for other people's beliefs, I will not intentionally do something that could be offensive to their core beliefs and values.
Comment: #93
Posted by: sharnee
Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:19 AM
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@MikeH - Precisely why don't you use "profanity" at work? and why are such words called "profane"? Is it possible because people find these words shocking and inappropriate? If it is not acceptable at work, then it is not a stretch to imagine that many people still consider the use of such language as impolite even in a casual setting.
I must admit that while I don't seek out the company of people who use profanity with frequency, I have heard it used in ways that I have found amusing. I laughed when I saw Limniade's comment above. I also thought that Lolley noting that people who use profanity are going to hell was comically ironic since hell is also considered to be a profane word by many.
But I disagree that profanity as a standard in society is a great deal more acceptable than in times past. Movies with too much profanity still get a PG-13 or R rating, after all.
Comment: #94
Posted by: sharnee
Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:28 AM
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@Lise - Also - while you know that I enjoy reading most of your posts - you are really in denial if you believe that you have only used extremely profane language 6-10 in the past year and a half. I don't have a count, but I can sure you that you do it much more frequently than you are allowing yourself to believe. Perhaps because you minimize the number of incidents so greatly, people are more apt to point it out to you when you do use foul language.
Comment: #95
Posted by: sharnee
Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:45 AM
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Re: Lise - Post #92 -- But you see, Lise, it is even more objectionable to use profanity when referring to someone directly, as in name calling. In your words: "Interesting that three other people used the F-bomb since I called that snake in lust with her friend's husband what she deserved to be called, and nobody even batted an eye." It seems that most of us are in agreement on this one thing: name calling isn't nice, and dirty name calling with profanity is VULGAR. When those f-bombs were dropped today and yesterday, they weren't t used even remotely as derogatively as you have been known to do. I'm sorry, ma'am, but please just let this go...? If you absolutely have to have the last word (and I know you do), then use it to apologize and then let this drop.
Comment: #96
Posted by: Cher
Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:31 AM
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@Sharnee
Post #93 -
I know, I know - I was just teasing you.
Post #95
Well, it all depends what qualifies as foul language in your book. If even mild stuff like 'crap' or 'damn' qualify, well, of course it's more than 6-10 times, although even then it's still occasional, just a little less so.
@Cher
"It seems that most of us are in agreement on this one thing: name calling isn't nice, and dirty name calling with profanity is VULGAR."
If it's so offensive and vulgar, than it is so when someone else uses it, not just me. Yeah, I was using it to refer to someone directly, and what's wrong with that considering she well deserved it? That's why my use of it is derogative indeed, because I save it for a truly deserving target!
You're not gonna get me to apologize for using a perfectly good English word in the context where it belongs perfectly. YOU, as well as a few others, however, should examine this propensity of fighting to defend a double standard.
Comment: #97
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:50 PM
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Re: Jo
Regarding why the 30 year old was not labeled a sex offender for having an affair with a 16-year-old, likely there are several explanations:
* The affair was 17 years ago, before sex offender registries were created, much less thought of. Remember, 1993-1994 -- presumably when girl was born -- the was the dawn of the Internet age, with far fewer regular users than today.
* Sex abuse laws, including those defining the legal age, often vary by state, with some of them allowing a consensual relationship as young as 16.
* Was it ever reported to the police? Methinks the mother was probably from a broken home with no father figure and a I-don't-give-a-damn mother.
Otherwise, I'd suggest a divorce. It's apparent he's no longer interested in you. And yes, it's the "Damn you for growing old and getting gray hairs," routine, I guess.
Comment: #98
Posted by: Bobaloo
Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:43 PM
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LW1: I have to say I'm surprised your children will still speak to you considering you have no spine. It must be painful for them to watch you have no self respect or self esteem. You've obviously placed a much higher value on your douche of a husband than you have on yourself. Seek therapy to discover why you have such low self esteem. Get healthy for your children. Be the example they deserve.
LW2: He takes the Lord's name in vain? How? Does he say goddammit alot? Oops LOL You're an idiot. Don't breed. Okay, today I'll be generous and tell you why you're an idiot. You're a fake a phoney full of fat baloney. Any clearer? No? Okay, you are so busy buying the crap you're trying to sell that you've lost your grasp of reality. If you truly believed in God than you would know he can see through you - he can truly see who you are. Your words mean nothing. Your fate will be decided on your actions - how you live your life. Stop worrying so much about other people and fix yourself or start to like fire.
LW3: The only thing you can take comfort in is this woman will never be happy. At least now you know to stay away from her and to protect yourself from her.
Comment: #99
Posted by: Diana
Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:54 PM
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