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Smokin' Joe

Comment

I turned off the television the minute the debate was over. I don't care what the armies of talking heads (many of whom have never come closer to a debate than their television set) have to say. I've been there — for some of the best and some of the worst.

From where I sit, this was one of the best.

Yes, I'm a Democrat. Mitt Romney won the first debate. I was rooting for Joe Biden.

But I wasn't pulling for the vice president because I thought it would be a real game changer, but because of what it would mean for him.

Vice-presidential debates, for all the talk you'll hear from Democrats in the next few days, are rarely (meaning never yet) game changers. I was there for Bentsen-Quayle in 1988, waiting for Dan Quayle to utter the words "Jack Kennedy," sure that it would provoke the reaction it did. "Pray for Jack Kennedy," I said to Bill Clinton before the debate began. For once in that campaign, our prayers were answered. But I was also in a bar across the street an hour later when our pollster confirmed that while Lloyd Bentsen had won the debate, the horserace had barely moved.

So maybe Biden's performance will stop Romney's momentum (although I think the unemployment numbers already did), and maybe it will help President Obama's fundraising, and it certainly will energize his supporters and quiet some of the complainers. It is still a close race.

What made me smile was what it means for Biden. I've known the vice president for a very long time. I've known him through some of his toughest times. I became Michael Dukakis' campaign manager in 1987 after the infamous "Biden tape affair" — the secretly leaked tape showing him channeling Labor Party candidate Neil Kinnock, a leak that looks like a playground stunt in light of today's acceptance of ugliness as business-as-usual politics. I was less than thrilled with his handling of Anita Hill's testimony during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. I would have liked to see Hillary Clinton on the ticket back in 2008.

I've also seen Biden deal with challenges few of us would ever want to face: the death of his beloved wife and daughter, all those years when I first came to Washington and everyone knew that Biden was the guy who commuted home to Delaware every night to raise his boys.

I remember when he suffered a near-fatal aneurysm, and years later, when a friend faced a similar crisis, Biden was one of the first to reach out and offer him encouragement and hope that, yes, he would be the same again.

Biden has been around. This was his last debate, perhaps his last moment under lights this bright, a moment when his president and his party were looking to him if not to win the election (see Bentsen '88), then to restore their trust that the cause was true and right, that Democrats had much to be proud of, that there were more than differences in style between the two parties.

He did that and more. He did it with passion and conviction, as well as facts and figures. He was true to himself. Yes, he laughed and smiled, but if you know Joe Biden, that wasn't a stage-managed tactic, but a genuine response. The guy on the other side was playing games, spouting a script, turning his back on his record, avoiding questions — and better a smile and a laugh than an angry scowl.

When Paul Ryan came back with what you know was a speechwriter's retort about how surely the vice president understands wrong words coming out of your mouth, Biden didn't scowl or cower. He jumped right back with what has always been true about him: It might come out garbled and impolitic, but he always means what he says.

I'm as cynical as the next one and maybe more. I've seen my love affair with politics turn sour. I've seen my dreams of who I would be when I grew up twisted by a system that few aspire to be a part of. So every once in a while, it's reassuring to see someone who reminds me that there are still a few people out there, people older than me, more battle-scarred than me, people who've been up and down and back up again, giving it their very best shot because they still believe in, yes, the possibility of a better America.

Hats off to you, Joe Biden. I'm smiling, too.

To find out more about Susan Estrich and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate website at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM



Comments

25 Comments | Post Comment
Were dems and reps even watching the same debate? I'm already getting very different vibes about this debate depending on who I talk to. There was no clear winner here. Both guys spent 90 minutes interrupting each other and calling one another liars. It was pathetic, like watching school children argue about who's their favorite superhero. I've already stated that anyone who believes that cooked unemployment number is an idiot. Well clearly Susan buys into it. Real unemployment is closer to 20%. And Susan proclaims herself cynical. Thats a bunch of malarky (I learned that one from Biden). If you want to see what real cynasism is like, read a Robert Scheer article. My last point, notice how she dosen't go into debate specifics at all.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Chris McCoy
Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:05 AM
I find it interesting how when Ms. Estrich wants sympathy she hauls out her 'rape'! Yet this is her column, and she does absolutely nothing to end the 'bullying' that continues unabated.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Dennis
Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:13 PM
Lunatic : a person whose actions and manner are marked by extreme eccentricity ; affected by periodic insanity:

What was most troubling about watching the debate last night was

1 the sudden realization that Biden is not just crazy old Joe in the comic sense but a bona fide lunatic,that can neither control his actions, gestures, mouth, or emotions and that acts wholly irrationally under pressure,

2 that we have had a bona fide lunatic as vice president for nearly four years but worse still,

3 that if barry boy gets back in (and after his and Biden's performances that is looking less and less likely, praise God !) then we shall have a bona fide lunatic a heart beat away from the presidency for another four years.

Whether one has no love for barry boy, his hatred of America or his epic failure as a president or alternatively whether one is a clueless supporter of Barry boy, the thought of Biden as vice president must if there is any love of America within one, dictate a vote against the possability of such a now proven lunatic possibly becoming president.
Comment: #3
Posted by: joseph wright
Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:26 PM
Ryan did not have to move the ball to win the debate; he simply had to avoid a misstep. He did this. Just being on stage with the 69 year old Vice President gave him needed stature. His youthful appearance added five points to his appeal--without saying a word. He decided not to be drawn into a snit-fit about the interruptions and the grimaces of his opponent. Since the moderator was unethical he couldn't expect any relief from her. She does not act like a professional.

Biden's duty was to avoid gaffes, and here he failed. He said that he had never heard that the embassy in Libya needed more security. Well, whose fault was that? Your Secretary of State Hillary Clinton? The President failing to sit for security briefings? Many people requested more security. There is no excuse for the ambassador to be assassinated because one part of your administration does not talk to the White House or the Vice President. Biden didn't even suggest that he was going to do something to assure that it will not happen in the future. Pure blunder.

Biden said that it was okay if Iran built an atomic bomb because Iran did not have "a delivery system." But they do have delivery systems; for example: trucks, airplanes, suitcases. A teenager can see through that argument.

Biden said, "With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact."

This is not a fact. This is simply a lie. Religious institutions, including Catholic social services, Georgetown Hospital, Mercy Hospital, any hospital, WILL have to refer contraception and be a vehicle for contraception in any insurance policy they provide. This includes sterilization and abortifacients. The President has made no accommodation for religious belief in this matter, even though he has pretended to do so. The Bishops of the Catholic Church agree that the health care bill will force Catholics to choose between their faith and health insurance: go without health insurance, or go to hell. Biden smiles when he lies.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Cowboy Jay
Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:05 PM
Sorry Susan, but the Dems lost both debates.

Obama did better against Clint Eastwood than he did against Romney.


Ryan is clearly not a good debater but he still beat Biden even though Ryan let Biden get away with many laughable statements.

For example:

1. Abortion: Poor Biden believes life starts at conception but does not wish to impose his views on others. LOL, LOL, LMFAO – OL. When has any government official, especially a Democrat, demonstrated a reluctance to force their views on others. Such is an absurd proposition unworthy of belief. No Democrat, including Biden, has a problem forcing their beliefs on others.


2. Blaming Ryan For the Deficit : What ? This worthless piece of human garbage Biden has the gall to point fingers at someone else regarding spending too much money.


3. I did not know what happened: Biden claims neither he nor Obama knew more security was needed or had been requested to protect our ambassador, thus Obama and Biden are not to be blamed? I see. Everything that happed during the Bush years was Bush's fault no matter how remote his involvement but nothing is Obama's fault unless one has a video recording proving he was directly involved with whatever when wrong. Right.


Democrats and Liberals are human garbage.


Comment: #5
Posted by: SusansMirror
Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:37 PM
Re: SusansMirror

"Democrats and Liberals are human garbage" Amen to that brother. Never has it been more openly on display.

Not only is Biden a luatic is is a lying crapweasel lunatic'

From the debate :

Biden "The president has met with Bibi [Netanyahu] a dozen times....This is a bunch of stuff." Lie They have met a few times including a meeting at which obama made the Israeli prime minister enter the White House through a back entrance, refused to take a picture with him, and left him on his own for dinner. Obama did refuse to meet Netanyahu in New York last month, preferring to talk to the lib harrigans of the View in a clear indended snub to Israel and to bolster up Israel's enemies.

Biden "Just let the taxes expire like they're supposed to on those millionaires." Lie The so called "millionaires" are actually singles earning over $200,000 and households earning more than $250,000 a year, including many middle-class families with two earners, and small business owners who report business earnings as personal income. Biden and Obama have repeatedly lied and labeled those earning over $250,000 as "millionaires and billionaires," in order to hide the actual impact of their tax plan on those it would hit hardest, those who create a vast proportion of small business jobs and those who need jobs

Biden "You know, I heard that death panel argument from Sarah Palin. It seems that every vice presidential debate, I hear this kind of stuff about panels." Lie. Palin never talked about "death panels" in her debate with Biden, for the simple reason that Obamacare had not then been proposed. Ryan did not mention "death panels"--he had addressed the undeniable fact that Obamacare proposes a board to impose cost controls. Those cost controls will however result in the deaths of an estimated 35,000 seniors per annum. Remember obama, maybe it will be better for grandmom just to take a pain killer.

Biden "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for." Lie. Ryan's proposal, which called for a 19% overall decrease in non-defense discretionary spending, does not even mention embassy security--the Obama campaign merely made up that number by applying 19% across the board.

Biden "No, they are not four years closer to a nuclear weapon." Lie. Iran is four years closer to a nuclear weapon.

Biden "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact." Lie. barry boy is forcing religious institutions to provide contraceptive and abortion drugs through their insurance policies. That is the reason several dozen religious institutions are suing the administration to defend their First Amendment freedom of religion.

Biden "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him." Lie. Biden voted for both the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war.

Biden "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare." Lie. The same $716 billion cut from Medicare is in fact being used to pay for Obamacare. Biden and barry boy repeatedaly double-count the same cuts. Taking $716 billion out of Medicare means exactly that--and hurts the program's solvency.

Biden "Well, we weren't told they wanted more security again." Lie. Biden lied through his teeth about the fact that the administration--specifically, the State Department--had been told again and again that security on the ground in Libya, and in Benghazi in particular, was inadequate. The day before, in Congressional hearings on the Libya attacks, former regional security director Eric Nordstrom described his frustration with having those requests turned down by the government bureaucracy: "For me the Taliban is on the inside of the building." No truer word has been said about this islam pandering enemy within,










Comment: #6
Posted by: joseph wright
Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:35 AM
I know you are biased because of your forty-five degree left leaning columns. But there must be a mental problem also to actually write that Joe (potty mouth liar) Biden won the debate. I think Joe's family should meet to discuss having him put away. His performance was pathetic at best! If you think his feeble minded appearance will help the Democrats then you should go away with Joe!
Comment: #7
Posted by: Gid Branscum
Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:39 PM
I look forward to reading your column every week . I don't agree with you most of the time but I can respect your opinion. How you could defend Joe Bidens performance is beyond my understanding. Not only did he lie about voting for the wars ,the Catholic Church ,security etc but he was totally rude. He didn't just interrupt Mr Ryan he talked over him when he was in the middle of his answers. I'm sorry but Joe Biden should be ashamed of himself.
Comment: #8
Posted by: cwolfertz
Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:48 PM
First, an asside on civility. A few people have stated that: "Democrats and Liberals are human garbage."

Are liberals confused thinkers? I believe so. Are they poorly educated? In a lot of cases that appears to be the case. Do they sometimes seem to be unaware of how the real world works? Sure. Are Liberal women less attractive than Conservative women? Ms. Estrich seems to think so. But are they 'Human Garbage"? I say no. I reserve harsh terms like that for Nazis, Stalinists, members of the Khmer Rouge and al-Qaeda , and similar filth. Should we use such terms to describe confused and poorly educated Americans? No. Let's keep it civil here. Please attack the logic and not the person. Ad hominen attacks may make you feel good, but they generally don't score with anyone but the true believers who didn't need convincing.

Regarding keeping it civil:

Lack of civility is very reason that in the end Biden will be judged to have lost this debate. You can respectfully disagree with the other side, but rudeness and snarkyness are beyond the pale. Mr. Biden did what he had to do for the ticket in the debate. He rallied the Presidents troops and calmed their (justifiable) fears concerning their ticket. I doubt he convinced many undecided voters to vote democratic with his tough guy act. He looked like a curmudgeon to me. As a result, Ryan won the debate and accomplished his major goal in the debate. In comparison to Biden, he appears to be a normal/rational Joe. He didn't scare off the undecided and made them feel a bit calmer about voting Republican.

Regarding Biden's statements on abortion:

Biden apparently believes life starts at conception but does not wish to impose that view on others. This is the old Ferraro stance on abortion. Essentially what it breaks down to is; "I know that millions of murders are going on around me each year, but I don't want to do anything about it." Can he actually believe this? The only rational defense of abortion lies in it not being murder. If you really believe abortion is murder and that it must continue unhindered, I have to ask what murders won't we care about nest year. Elders? Immigrants? Liberals?

I could understand him saying "I'm a public official and must enforce the law until it is change." But to say he doesn't want to stop the murders around him from occurring is one of the most spectacular examples of cognitive dissonance I've ever seem. This kind of muddled thinking is one of the reasons some on the right begin to suspect that liberals are 'human garbage'. I think this kind of logic needs to be called out and harshly condemned when our public officials spew it out. What do you say Ms. Estrich? How do you feel about this?
Comment: #9
Posted by: Old Navy
Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:02 AM
Joe Biden made the point during his debate that Paul Ryan and the Republicans had voted to REDUCE the State Department's security budget by over $300 million PRIOR TO the killing of the four Americans in Libya. As such the Republicans, inclueding my own Congressmean, have the blood of four Americans on their hands and are now trying to divert attention away from that vote. Jennifer Granholm raised the same point on MEET the PRESS this morning. My Congressman was ranting and raving during the ISSA hearing this week about the lack of security at the consulate in Libya but when I wrote him an e-mail asking him how he voted on the State department security budget(I already know) , he has so far declined to answer that e-mail. I have a feeling that if this issue is pressed, the Democrats may soon be putting up ads pointing out who voted for these security cuts.
The republicans may present themselves to the American public as budget cutters, Nothing wrongwith that, but budget cuts often have consequences. Four Americans are dead thanks to Republican budget cuts from the State department's security funds. Now they are railing about what happened AFTER the attack when they should have been more worried about security BEFORE the attack.
Comment: #10
Posted by: robert lipka
Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:56 AM
Lipka wrote:
"Joe Biden made the point during his debate that Paul Ryan and the Republicans had voted to REDUCE the State Department's security budget by over $300 million PRIOR TO the killing of the four Americans in Libya. As such the Republicans, inclueding my own Congressmean, have the blood of four Americans on their hands..."

This is, of course, utterly ridiculous. The Department of State (DoS) gets a huge pot of money each year to perform its duties. According to Wikipedia, the DoS discretionary budget amounted to $51.7 Billion dollars in FY 2010 (N.B., $172 for each US citizen). Am I supposed to believe a mere $300 million dollar reduction (~0.6% of the FY2010 budget) in this massive slush fund is the cause of the ambassadors death? If the danger was apparent, I have to believe funds could have been reprogrammed from one portion of this massive pile of money to make the necessary upgrades to security in Libya. Further, you have to ask why the ambassador was placed in such a vulnerable position, with practically no security force, on a day (11 September) that any retard might have guessed just might be trouble for an American in the middle of an Islamic country.

This argument is just a continuation of the Obama administrations unwillingness to accept responsibility for any bad news that occurs on it's watch. Predictably, the ambassadors death is the fault of Republicans. However, killing Bin Laden is a Obama only triumph played up to be greater than our victory in World War II. (Such a daring decision on Obama's part!)

Adults take responsibility for what happens on their watch. They don't blame others for what goes bad while they are in charge. The Democrats consistently refuse to take responsibility for the bad news, from Libya to the economy. They seize credit for any good news, regardless of whether they had anything to do with it (e.g., Taking credit for the Libyan revolution which at best is a Libyan/French success). Does anyone recall Bush blaming the democrats for the bad news from Iraq or 9/11?

Why would anyone vote to return these whining blame shifters to office? Time for a change.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Old Navy
Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:18 AM
Lipka wrote:
"Joe Biden made the point during his debate that Paul Ryan and the Republicans had voted to REDUCE the State Department's security budget by over $300 million PRIOR TO the killing of the four Americans in Libya. As such the Republicans, inclueding my own Congressmean, have the blood of four Americans on their hands..."

This is, of course, utterly ridiculous. The Department of State (DoS) gets a huge pot of money each year to perform its duties. According to Wikipedia, the DoS discretionary budget amounted to $51.7 Billion dollars in FY 2010 (N.B., $172 for each US citizen). Am I supposed to believe a mere $300 million dollar reduction (~0.6% of the FY2010 budget) in this massive slush fund is the cause of the ambassadors death? If the danger was apparent, I have to believe funds could have been reprogrammed from one portion of this massive pile of money to make the necessary upgrades to security in Libya. Further, you have to ask why the ambassador was placed in such a vulnerable position, with practically no security force, on a day (11 September) that any retard might have guessed just might be trouble for an American in the middle of an Islamic country.

This argument is just a continuation of the Obama administrations unwillingness to accept responsibility for any bad news that occurs on it's watch. Predictably, the ambassadors death is the fault of Republicans. However, killing Bin Laden is a Obama only triumph played up to be greater than our victory in World War II. (Such a daring decision on Obama's part!)

Adults take responsibility for what happens on their watch. They don't blame others for what goes bad while they are in charge. The Democrats consistently refuse to take responsibility for the bad news, from Libya to the economy. They seize credit for any good news, regardless of whether they had anything to do with it (e.g., Taking credit for the Libyan revolution which at best is a Libyan/French success). Does anyone recall Bush blaming the democrats for the bad news from Iraq or 9/11?

Why would anyone vote to return these whining blame shifters to office? Time for a change.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Old Navy
Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:18 AM
Re: Old Navy

Lipka with every post he makes proves that Democrarts and Liberals are indeed human garbage. To hell with civility with that crapweasel.

Lipka has posted on the murder of our Ambassador and three other Amaricans not less than three times so far.

But not once has he expressly condemed the murders or the scum that committed them. The closest he could come was to call the events in Libya a "tragedy'

He has however on each occasion blamed America only. He has done so by firstly blaming the maker of the "video" and then secondly on two occasions in loathsome fashion endeavouring to place the blood of the murdered on the GOP and upon budgets that had absolutely nothing to do with the events.

Notwithstanding the Congressional hearings and the clear evidence led there, human garbage Lipka continues to blame everyone and anyone but the culpable, to wit, the murdering muslim scum that perpetrated the murders and barry boy, biden, clinton et al who together failed to secure our nationals and who together have engaged in a deceitful cover up.

The transcripts of the hearings show as follows

Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb, who helps oversee diplomatic security, tried to explain how the requests for security were evaluated. She said there was the right level of protection in Benghazi the night of Sept. 11. Clearly the level of security provided was nothing to do with budget or budget cuts.

Lamb said she opposed a request to extend the term of a special supplemental security team comprising mostly military personnel that had assisted Stevens and other diplomats from February until August.

She acknowledged that she had told the top security officer at the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli not to bother asking for additional help when the military team was sent home.

That officer, Eric Nordstrom, said he interpreted Lamb's refusal as "there was going to be too much political cost."

The matter was not money cost but political cost. That is the cost to the lying liar barry boy of admitting his mid east poilcies were a complete failure.

Screw Lipka, the piece of garbage.


Comment: #13
Posted by: joseph wright
Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:20 PM
Joe Biden, one heart beat away from the Presidency - very, very, very scary!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Oldtimer
Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:11 AM
I echo Old Navys plea for civility. If your arguement is better, there is no need for name calling. Likpa's arguements are quickly and completly torn down with the facts after every post. He has no leg to stand on because he supports an incompetant president with failed ideas. I mean, this is a party that believes that if a currency is failing, that just printing more money will fix it. As far as the upgraded embassy security measures, they think that throwing money at the problem will fix it. Thats the core of this flawed line of thinking. Mindless spending fixes all. Don't sink to their level with petty insults.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Chris McCoy
Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:41 AM
Re: Chris McCoy
There is a huge distinction between baseless insult and fact.
Comment: #16
Posted by: joseph wright
Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:42 AM
I didn't say your insults were baseless, but they certainly aren't fact either. Here are some example of facts: Joe Biden lyed during the debate, the atomic number of aluminum is 13, and apples grow on trees. Here are some opinions: Joe Biden is an idiot, aluminum is a great element, apples are very tasty. There is a also a differnence between adults arguing over political issues, and kids calling each other names in the schoolyard.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Chris McCoy
Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:18 AM
Re: Chris McCoy
No biden demonstrated that he was a person whose actions and manner are marked by extreme eccentricity ; and or someone affected by periodic insanity and therfore demonstrated the fact that he is a lunatic.

There is an acute difference between responses proper amongst adults, each having the well being of the Republic and the liberty to enjoy that well being at heart but having differences as to the best way to acheive that goal and the required response to the ememies of America, to the enemies of liberty and to the enemies of the Constitution, who should they have their way would happily destroy the American way of life.

Lipka and his ilk, to wit, Democrats, liberals and so called progressives self evidently fall squarely into the enemy of freedom and enemy of America catgegory. The fact that they would consistently blame America first when it is attacked or defend obama and his onslaught upon American values and or even consider a vote for the obama/biden ticket is conclusive of that emnity.

The time for political correctness, the illness that has infected our schools, colleges and workplaces and which is to be seen for what it is and what is it being used for, which is to give cover to the radicals and America haters, is over.
This coming election will decide whether America may be reclaimed or whether it is doomed to failure, to bankruptcy, to the evils of socialism and whether or not it is to continue with the immorality of saddling our children and future generations with unending debt. A vote for obama is a vote for all of the immediately foregoing evils.

Lipka and his ilk are hell bent on such failure, bankruptcy,socialism and immorality. It is time to call them out clearly and forcefully as the "human garbage" {the new collective noun for those advocating failure, socialism and the immorality of generational debt} for what they are.

But that said, Chris, you like me are entitled to your own opinion as to what has or has not been established as fact.
Comment: #18
Posted by: joseph wright
Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:49 PM
We don't get to choose what is fact and opinion. Its either one or the other. You can tear down Likpa's arguements with facts all day long, but you calling him "human garbage" will forever remain your opinion.
And yes, I agree that any Obama supporting democrats are absolutly enemies of freedom, but the reps don't have the best record of standing up for freedom either. Mittens still supports the NDAA, drones, and regulations.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Chris McCoy
Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:56 PM
Re: Chris McCoy

I beg to differ opinion and fact can and often do coincide.

Having had three chuldren and having added two to them, it has become my conclusion and therefore my opinion that I have five children. It is also a fact that I have five children.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, acts like a duck etc '--------------------- its a duck !



Comment: #20
Posted by: joseph wright
Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:49 PM
Can somebody please back me up here? Oldtimer? Navy? "Joesph has 5 children" is not an opinion.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Chris McCoy
Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:13 PM
Re: Chris McCoy

Chris
You are correct. The statement is a statement of fact.

However, I could have 5 children but be of the opinion that I have 6. In that instance fact and opinion would not coincide. If I am of the opinion that I have 5 children then fact and opinion coincide.

In any event it is not that important! Just pulling your leg a bit. I shall give you this : in my opinion Lipka is human garbage.

Whether that reflects civility or otherwise is, for the reasons I have given before, not important to me.
Comment: #22
Posted by: joseph wright
Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:07 PM
Joseph Wright wrote:
"Can somebody please back me up here? Oldtimer? Navy? "Joesph has 5 children" is not an opinion"

You are correct. Facts are verifiable by experiment and/or research. For instance, we could go to 'Josephs' home and count the kids or do research in the birth records. Now Joe may have an extra child he hasn't told his wife about, or the paternity of one of the children may be muddled, but we could eventually confirm the number of children that are living or have lived at Casa Joe.

The statement "L is human garbage" is just an opinion. I doubt we could all get together and agree upon a definition of "Human Garbage". The term certainly means nothing in the law and likely means something different to everyone who hears it. With no agree upon definition, it would be impossible to test the hypothesis that "L is human garbage". Hence it is an opinion in the mind of the believer. I certainly don't believe any of the individuals on this board fit my definition of HG.

Note the amount of print we have expended on this back and forth about Lipka's HG status. This is a practical demonstration of why ad hominen are unwise. Let's get back to criticizing the candidates based on the facts (e.g., $1.5 Trillion/year deficits as far as the eye can see). That is what is important.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Old Navy
Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:33 PM
Re: Old Navy and Chris McCoy
Gentlemen, was it not clear that I was pulling your respective chains. Of course statements like Lipka is human garbage or all Democrats are human garbage are nothing more than opinion and are not facts any more than Lipka and Morgan repeatedly asserting that I was a racist were statements of their individual opinions not fact.
However, the main thrust of my point is not knocked down. The era of political correctness must be brought to an end and one must not be discouraged from speaking one's mind to the enemies of this because of political correctness or false civility.
Comment: #24
Posted by: joseph wright
Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:46 AM
Spoken like a loyal friend blinded by love. This is a truly rare thing in this time of deceit, destroy and lie. Although I do not agree what Ms. Estrich thinks of the vice-president, it is refreshing for her to stand by her friend through thick and thin. I admire that greatly.
Comment: #25
Posted by: dianna smith
Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:34 PM
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