Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW2 - Annies should try reading the letters. LW said she was invited, not that she dropped by. Of course, she can ask people if she can turn off the tv. Or she can walk into another room where it's quieter and invite whoever she is talking to to join her there.
LW3 - it's never too late for anyone to grow up, but after 19 years, why do you think that will happen for your husband ?It's not too late for you to grow up either, and accept that while you can't change your hubby, you can change your life yourself. If you want a husband who's going to be a good father, then get rid of Peter Pan and go find one.

LW1-
Pop the question to Lynn, but make it a condition that her son never comes to live with you again. No, you don't "have" to take him in even after he's run out of housing options. The kid is 20 years old, not a child anymore, and it'a high time he finds out that there is treatment available for bipolarity. Selfish immaturity is another matter, but it sure doesn't get cured with enabling.
LW2-
How old are you, that you need to be told that yes, you can ask, "can we turn this down a bit, I can't hear a word you're saying"? If something that innocuous starts a fight, your family has bigger problems than a loud TV.
LW3-
Whether it is too late for him to grow up has nothing to do with years and all to do with motivation. Since he obviously is not in the least interested in changing, you have to ask yourself if you're better off with him or without him, before your "little" resentment turns to bitter anger. Attend to this - a Peter Pan father and an angry mother is no role model for a child to grow up with.

LW1: You need to understand that LYNN takes full responsibility for all ill her son does. With all his excuses--she accepts blame for him getting where he is and HE loves that fact.

Find a mental health unit via your local social services--since he is NOT 21 yet, she can ask that the court assign her the guardian WHEN he gets to be 21 and also have him committed for evaluation and treatment.

My nephew just went through this with their son. Son does not have much to do with them anymore BUT he has his life back on track. And as long as he stays on his meds, he has his own place, his own car, his own money and HIS OWN JOB. He stays in contact with his siblings, shares an apartment with a sister. He has had contact with my d-i-l and she said it was wonderful to visit with him. I am sure he connects distrust with his parents but they did what they had to and did it legally. It saved HIS life. Some day it will be o.k. There is no anger, just arm's length to make sure he does not get hurt again. They make point to reach out to him.

But they did get it all tied to court. and rehab. It was a full mental break down he had to come back from. This also is the mama bird pushing the baby out of the nest to fly.

LW1 needs to trust those around her.

Go ahead and ask her to marry you--be surprised how she may feel--wanting to share with you BUT not burden you. By making it legal, you can help her have a say with legal issues. Maybe be the scape goat--but who cares--it will help her move on to heal.

And keep in touch with the group.
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LW2: Ask them to keep repeating what they say to you in coversation. Ask them to sit closer to you so you don't have to yell. ETC. Whom ever you are visiting will soon catch on. You don't have have an excuse of why you can't hear them.

Big screen TVs have an imbalance that old fashioned TVs never had. I find I put the volume down on the living room Tv and up on the kitchen tv as I function around the house. Makes the sound pretty good for conversation, etc that way. Having a husband with 1 hearing aid when 2 would be perfect and a mother who should wear one too, it is hard to have the right balance. Hubby sits about 18 inches from the TV when he watches--so to ear. We only have a 32 inch so the popping sound, reverb is not crashing. I have a set of speakers from a computer I am going to conenct in and move those speakers away from the set. I found I did this with an entertainment center (about 9 feet up) for the stereo and it took out that horribleness. Made it like white noise rather than obnoxious.
Maybe you want to ask those you visit if they can hear the TV o.k. And then when they say FINE, ask if you could turn it down a mite.
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LW3: Your hubby has been with the good ol' boys so long, he won't want to give it up. You need to show him that your life can go on without him and make family plans, girlfriend plans, etc. Plan a 2-3 day trip or longer with a friend. FORGET to tell him about it and if he comes home looking for you, leave a SMALL note on the bathroom mirror or some other place he might eventually look.

You might say: Since you had plans with your guy friends, I decided to have a family vacation by myself. OR WITH FRIENDS--don't name them. Or say you are having quality time with your children--and make it that. DON"T ask him to come with. Pretty soon he will figure WHY he is being left out. And deservedly so.

If you have minor children, make it with them or make sure they have supervision coverage. And every time your hubby decides the weekend is his--plan something without him. OH, when you get home make sure he knows how much fun YOU had. Don't have to be subtle--just a little dancing around, fixing your hair different. If he asks, tell him it was a nice weekend--and someone had noticed you--you made some new friends. Nothing more needs to be said. He has his friends.

He started the split family 19 years ago. Since you have had 19 years to sit at home, get on with your life. I am willing you look much better than his drinking, golfing, sports watching friends.

LW1, the support group will help you tremendously as a couple. It will help Lynn see that she's not responsible for everything her son does, and that you two can help him financially and emotionally without letting him move back in. She needs to give herself permission to only partially rescue him, not fully rescue him every time he's in trouble; she also needs help giving him goals. This is not anything you can do, you just get to be supportive: this has to come from a counselor with a great deal of experience.
Lynn may want to do estate planning with a disabled child in mind--regular monthly income, no large blocks of cash for him to p!ss through, finding someone to be the trustee, etc. You can go with her to the lawyer's office as she does the estate preparation. You can help her ask him what he plans to do once she's gone--how is he going to support himself? You two can figure out ways to help at a distance, so she's not in full 'mommy' mode. The way to say that Mike can't move back in, is to say that you love her too much to watch her get sick again, so that's off the table, but you're willing to consider a lot of other things. But once you're past 50, you can have a parent who has a stroke, health problems yourself, etc.--you don't get to say that you just won't deal with problems.

LW1 - First of all, do NOT marry Lynn until the issues with her son have been resolved. She needs to understand that she doesn't "have to" take him in. He's an adult and the law does not state that you must house your adult child. But I agree that you and Lynn should find a support group like someone mentioned above. Maybe Lynn will find comfort hearing from people who have been in and are in her shoes.

I would also tell Lynn that you would love to marry her, but things need to be resolved regarding her son, including the agreement that he never live with you again. He's a thief. I'm no expert on the bipolar disease, but I doubt that it means the person doesn't know right from wrong. Good luck to you!

LW2 - It's rude to invite someone over and they keep the TV blaring. Yes, it's okay to ask them to turn it off. And if they don't, it's okay for you to leave.

LW3 - If he hasn't changed in 19 years, chances are he won't. I agree with what the others have said. If you want a responsible man, go find someone else.

Re: angoradeb

great post on this.

My best friend has a brother like "Mike". He's in his 50s now, has never held a job, has medical issues as a result of drug intake in his teens and 20s, and now lives with their elderly parents. In the last two months, both she and I (we've been friends since we were 10) have become increasingly worried that her brother is abusing their father: the mother moved out about 5 years ago when the father refused to throw the adult son out of the house. Watching people go through this is heartbreaking, and even worse, I am worried for my friend that she will be taking on caregiver role for this brother when her parents eventually pass away.

One of the things we've been trying to get her parents to do is make sure that there is a plan for her brother in their estate planning, but it's been a nightmare because her father is convinced he's never going to die, even though he has diabetes, is in his 80s and can barely function.

If the LW is reading this post, take note. 19 becomes 50 at some point. This brother of my friend was THE dude when he was in high school. Very popular with the girls, party animal. I lost contact with him when I went off to do my college/globetrotting deal and thought when I caught up with my friend "Oh she's going to tell me he's married with three kids and working in real estate". But (and I firmly believe this is the truth: even my friend admits it) his parents gave him everything, he was never held accountable, he never got proper diagnosis for what they now know is a severe mental illness and now he's a mess. He was doing illegal drugs to try to compensate but it just made things worse to the point where he can't function in public. Bottom line: the family has to take care of him just like he is incapacitated, which is hard to imagine when he can hold an inteligent conversation and be witty.

I'm with Michelle on this that you need to address this before you get married. The time to get aggresive with Mike and his treatment is NOW before he turns into my friend's brother. Do you really want some 50 year old living with you in your retirement?

LW1: Of course, let Lynn know you want to marry her, but then have a frank conversation about her son and encourage her to think of new ways of dealing with him; counseling for her, counseling for him, medication for him, and somewhere to get some pointers to help you both deal with him.

And then be a true partner to her. Understand that you aren't Mike's father, and you can't just step into that role; but you can support Lynn as she figures out how she wants to handle him.

And... if he does come back to stay with you, make sure you and Lynn are on the same page about how to deal with him.

LW2: Just ask. Either ask if it's a bad time to visit (even though you were invited), ask if the TV can be turned off, or at least down, or ask if you can move to another room for conversation.

Another possible option is to turn the sound off but leave the TV on with the closed captions on.

But... if this really is a regular habit, maybe ask when a better time to visit would be when the favorite show isn't on.

LW3: Drinking once a week, playing golf on the weekend, and watching sports on the weekend, doesn't really strike me as "excessive", to be honest. You say nothing about how stressful his job is or how much overtime he might work.

Are you insisting that he *stop* all this behavior completely and stay home with you and help clean the house and take care of your son? If that's the case, I'm actually not all that supportive.

I think you'd do better to negotiate a lessening of this behavior, but also understand that he has a right to have *some* fun, *some* hobby. Ask him for a few hours on the weekend to do things with you and your son, like going to a local park, the zoo, etc. Do something *fun* as a family and ask him to give up *some* sports television to do so. (Heck, with DVRs, he can still watch the most essential games).

See if you can get him to agree to golf every other weekend, and help around the house and fun time with family on the "off" weekends. And ask him to take your son sometimes while you go off to pamper yourself as well!

Right now, it sounds from your letter like you COULD be seen as trying to take *all* his fun away, and not really offering much reason for it, or much in return. Try to make this more about substituting one kind of fun for another, and try to be open to some compromise of your own.

"Being an adult" doesn't mean having no fun whatsoever.

LW1--"She accepts that I don't want to marry, but I have noticed that when someone gets engaged, her mood changes dramatically. She becomes depressed and cries, and I can see the hurt in her face." Apparently she doesn't accept it. Her little Academy award winning performance at the sight of an engagement ring was designed to guilt you down the aisle, in spite of your firm resolve to never marry again and it worked splendidly. You can tell a lot about a person by how well they raised their kids. 'Lynn's' son 'Mike' is proof positive that she was a terrible parent. She failed to lay down boundaries or use any form of discipline whatsoever. Her shiftless, excuse-making, self-entitled brat is the result. My advice to you is to think twice about marrying Lynn because you'll be gaining her son and all the baggage that comes with him.

LW2--You could purchase one of those key chains that has a universal remote control built into it. These can surreptitiously turn off any television. I use mine at the gym sometimes when they're blaring something idiotic while I try to do my cardio. When the TV mysteriously shuts off, just act surprised and proffer up that the set must be on the blink.

Re LW2: It seems like different people have different standards for what's ok. I recall going to a friend's birthday party and the TV was on and that was the center of the party. To me that's not why I went there... I went to socialize with friends, but apparently these people just accepted that the TV was ALWAYS on. Really all I could do was watch and then leave as soon as was decent.

Re LW3: Ok, maybe this is a guy thing, but the description of what this guy does is that he goes out once a week and drinks, and on weekends he plays golf or watches sports. Well, to be honest, that doesn't sound all that awful or unusual. It's not like he's out partying every night. And it sounds like he's working and LW3 doesn't imply that he's not doing his part around the house. Is it really so unacceptable that he enjoy himself a couple of times a week???

LW1: A young man who says he "can't get the mail because he's bipolar" is one who is not interested in treatment or getting better. I am also a fan of involuntary committal, if you can pull it off. Otherwise, mom has to get tough. If "he has nowhere else to go" it has to STAY that way. If he knows he can crash with mom anytime, he'll take advantage of it, and how. I agree with the poster who said this should be framed as for Lynn's sake, as she became ill the last time he stayed over. It reminds me of the TV show "Intervention" where they keep saying the addicts will never get better until they hit an absolute bottom. I'm sorry to say that between "accepting" that you do not want marriage but weeping when others get engaged, and this behaviour, Lynn sounds like a top notch doormat who won't assert her needs with those close to her. This doesn't mean don't marry her, but keep in mind how she handles conflict.

LW3: I agree that if it's one night out a week and hobbies on weekends, it's not terribly excessive. BUT are we talking every single weekend for the entire marriage? That can get wearing. I know some marriages work just fine on that dynamic. It's more concerning to me that you've obviously made a big enough issue out of it to go to counseling, and he won't adjust. I'm sure someone at some point must have suggested compromises like Mike did- his hobbies every other weekend, a few hours with you, etc. If no one has, then by all means try. But my feeling is that he's SO attached to golf/sports/etc that he won't give it up despite KNOWING it's a serious issue in your marriage, something deeper is going on. He's escaping from something.

LW3: I am with Mike H. on this one. It does't seem your husband is doing anything unreasonable.

Slightly off topic, I was watching "The Today Show" yesterday, and they had a segment on how nagging can be just as harmful to a marriage as an affair. When I read your letter, LW3, I thought of that segment immediately. When your husband is watching sports, do you nag him? When he comes home after a night out, do you nag him? You may need to think about your approach because you're not getting through to him.

And after 19 years of this dynamic, the only way this will change is if he wants to change and it doesn't seem he wants to. I have a horrible feeling we'll be hearing back from you once your child leaves the home and you suddenly decide you have nothing in common with your husband.

May I offer some advice to you? Why don't you try to JOIN your husband in some of his activities? I'm not a huge sportsy type, but even I can play golf and LOVE it because it's fun to get out in the fresh air and green grass. What sports does he watch? Now, I hate football as a rule, but my boyfriend adores it. Our compromise: we use the time he watches the game as together time: he watches the game, I read a book. We sit together, have snacks together. At times, he'll want to explain something about the game to me, I play along. Since his last relationship was with a woman who detested football and made fun of him for watching it, he is grateful that I don't care if he watches it and usually after the game he is VERY appreciative if you know what I mean.

In short, try to get back to a point in your relationship where you have things in common again. You had them when you dated him (or did you fake it?).... you may find you yourself have missed some of these things as well. Lighten up: life is not meant to be all drudgery and responsibility. Sometimes, it's time to PLAY! Go have fun.

LW3: I am with Mike H. on this one. It does't seem your husband is doing anything unreasonable.

Slightly off topic, I was watching "The Today Show" yesterday, and they had a segment on how nagging can be just as harmful to a marriage as an affair. When I read your letter, LW3, I thought of that segment immediately. When your husband is watching sports, do you nag him? When he comes home after a night out, do you nag him? You may need to think about your approach because you're not getting through to him.

And after 19 years of this dynamic, the only way this will change is if he wants to change and it doesn't seem he wants to. I have a horrible feeling we'll be hearing back from you once your child leaves the home and you suddenly decide you have nothing in common with your husband.

May I offer some advice to you? Why don't you try to JOIN your husband in some of his activities? I'm not a huge sportsy type, but even I can play golf and LOVE it because it's fun to get out in the fresh air and green grass. What sports does he watch? Now, I hate football as a rule, but my boyfriend adores it. Our compromise: we use the time he watches the game as together time: he watches the game, I read a book. We sit together, have snacks together. At times, he'll want to explain something about the game to me, I play along. Since his last relationship was with a woman who detested football and made fun of him for watching it, he is grateful that I don't care if he watches it and usually after the game he is VERY appreciative if you know what I mean.

In short, try to get back to a point in your relationship where you have things in common again. You had them when you dated him (or did you fake it?).... you may find you yourself have missed some of these things as well. Lighten up: life is not meant to be all drudgery and responsibility. Sometimes, it's time to PLAY! Go have fun.

L3: It says he goes out "at least" once a week drinking EXCESSIVELY, etc. etc. Sounds to me like it's a lot and he's avoiding responsibility.

Since they have been to counseling and he didn't change anything, that's damaging to a marriage. He's married, for Pete's sake, not a single man! He has a son, he needs to act like a grown man of what, 38-40?

Even if she's nagging him or something, he's not pulling his weight in the marriage and parent departments. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, not parent and child like this one apparently is. If he has issues with her, he should FIX IT!! That's what adults do.

LW1 - Her big heart and infectiuos smile. Nice. Don't marry her. Her son will always be a burden to you both. If she had any intention of dealing with him in any constructive manner she would have by now. The woman breaks out in a rash for cripes sake and she sitll hasn't done anything (whatever that might be)? Sorry but chances of happiness with her as a wife and him a stepson look pretty grim.

LW2 - Since you were invited over you can expect that the TV be turned off. If you ask nicely and it's not turned off excuse yourselves and say you'll back at a better time.

LW3 - He is setting a bad example, maybe and he's not going to change. Like someone else has already said, decide if you're better off with him or without him. No more counseling. If you can't live with it anymore ask him to leave and explain why. Don't be surprised if your son's loyalties lie with his dad though.

@jar8818, except the letter writer didn't say that he wasn't pulling his weight in the marriage and parent departments. I suspect if that were truly a problem she would have highlighted it more strongly. She also doesn't say what she means by "drinks excessively". Is it two or three beers, or is he knocking back 7 shots of whiskey?

She sounds like she could be one of those people who believes that adults shouldn't have fun, and I think she resents him that he is trying to be more balanced than she is.

I think nanchan's suggestion of joining him is terrific, actually. She's seems to have turned this into a "do it my way or the highway" problem, rather than something the two of them solve together.

They are partners, yes. But that means she shouldn't be able to dictate to him each and every moment of his free time, either. That's also not a particularly good example for their son, by the way.

He's not cheating on her, he's not hitting her or their son, he's providing for them, and she doesn't suggest she's offered much in the way of compromise. I think it's ridiculous and wildly premature to suggest that this is a marriage-ending problem, not without a lot more evidence of other ways his behavior is hurting them.

She may be the one with unreasonable expectations of her husband completely giving up all enjoyment, or that he should be at her beck and call when he's not at work, and maybe the real answer is a compromise she's been unwilling to offer. We just don't know.

But given all the other letters we've seen from women complaining about husbands who abuse them, who step out on them, who are unemployed and won't look for a job... I don't think her problem is as devastating as she's making it, not unless a lot more got edited out of the letter.

Let's look at the flip side... what if the husband complained about his wife going to a book club, or volunteering at a library, or joining a bowling league and having a girl's night out once a week. I think some people would find such a husband a tad controlling, hm? Same shoe, different foot.

Note that she says the counseling didn't work because HIS behavior didn't change. Most couples counseling involves meeting in the middle. It doesn't seem she changed either, and maybe the counselor suggesting she needed to compromise and her refusing to understand that also caused the counseling to fail.

There's another side to this story, jar8818, and I think it's unfair to castigate the husband for what does not seem unusual, excessive, or all that harmful to a marriage. Plenty of happy, successful marriages out there where husbands are doing pretty much exactly what this guy is doing.

LW2 Simple solution. The louder the TV, the softer you speak. They will either turn it down so they can hear you or ignore you completely in favor of the TV.

One more take on LW3: I didn't necessarily have the closest relationship with my father when I was a kid (although we have a very nice, solid relationship now), but one of the things I *do* remember happily about my childhood is watching televised hockey games on Saturday with my dad. My lifelong love of hockey started probably when I was about 5 years old, and it was one of the few things that we shared.

There's plenty of ways in which watching sports and maybe even going golfing together that can bring a father and son closer together. Maybe LW3 just needs to understand that it's not a behavior she needs to eliminate and fight against, but instead should make sure wraps *into* their lives together.

Heck, maybe that's already happening and she jealous of "sports time with dad", and that's in part why she wants to stop it.

But playing and watching sports together is one of the *quintessential* ways American men bond with their sons. *IF* the LW is missing or downplaying that aspect of the situation, then she's being a bit short-sighted.

LW1, Ok, who put something in my coffee this morning? Mike H, Mike H, Mike H, break my heart. I notice that the boys are in agreement on this one. Drinking excessively one day a week and out playing every week-end - come on boys - thats three out of seven days. From what was written that is way too much. I am only guessing that the week-ends include a tab bit of drinking too. If we take into consideration the time at work, commute, sleeping and add to that the 'Fun Time' ,Yowza! 168 hours in a week. Conservatively 9.5 hours 5 days a week for work and commuting (47.5) + 10 hours each week-end for and 5 hours each week devoted to drinking (a very conservative 15). Add another 7 hours each night for sleep (49). 111.5 hours a week, not including bathroom breaks that leaves about 36% of his time for family. Of course he has to work and sleep I am aware of that. But something else is going on, me thinks he likes his friend , sports and drinking more than being with his family. I'm wondering why he married in the first place. (OK Lise, take it from here) When one marrys and decides to have a family something has to give, it's called growing up. He needs to give up his golfing EVERY week-end. Save it for retirement when she really wants him out of the house. Sorry boys, gotta go with the girls on this one.

@nanchan

If you friend's brother is abusing his father and the father STILL refuses to throw him out of the house, it's very sad, but he's a willing victim. "Can only lead a horse to water", chapter #997628. And if your friend, KNOWING THIS, is stupid enough to take him in after her father passes, well... what can I tell you. But if you've been best friends with her since you were ten, then you're intimate enough to get blunt and not need to gild it. Explain the principle of tough love to her. Plus the meaning of "well-ordained charity starts at home". Good luck!

@Mike H & Dave
"Is it really so unacceptable that he enjoy himself a couple of times a week???"
No, it wouldn't be, but only if she gets the same privilege. It sure doesn't look like it. If the LW has "been there 19 years", then the man is at least 39. Don't you think he should grow up a bit, or is she only there to serve, while he has "a right" to be a frat boy all his life?

Also, she does say "at least" so it's not only once a week. And if she says he drinks "excessively" I'm understanding he comes home drunk, otherwise how would she know he drank way too much? She also says he spends the entire weekend, every one of them, either playing golf or watching sports. In other words, he behaves like he's still single, while she's stuck as if she were a single mother because he's completely disengaged.

Mike, your suggestion that he alternate weekends with the fun would be excellent, except that I'm sure it has already been suggested by the marriage counsellor they've been to "numerous times" and still, they "cannot reach an agreement on what is acceptable". He wants it all and he won't budge. If she hasn't left already, if she has been to the marriage counsellor with him and is now writing to an advice columnist in desperation, I take it that she wants to save the marriage if possible and would be willing to travel her half of the road. I see the fact that no agreement can nevertheless be reached as an indication that he's the one who refuses to compromise and grow up.

Thank you for the male perspective, but it seems that the two of you glossed over a couple of things!

And nanchan, yes, nagging can be as harmful to a marriage as an affair, but getting stone drunk with the boys "at least" once a week can EASILY lead to an affair also - among other problems it causes.

While I was drinking my tainted coffee some of the girls posted and agreed with the boys. I still hold firm.

Not abusing ones wife and children does not mean he is a great family man. "He didn't kill anyone!" does not equate with he's a good guy, it equates with "He didn't kill anyone." This argument that it is something that he gets to do because others are doing it, hummmm, probably why the divorce rate is so high. Boys, I'm not in the club so perhaps I don't understand your point of view. I sure do understand the wifes POV, just ask my ex. Now I get to play whenever I want. ;0)

@Penny
I had! ;-D

Re: Lise Brouillette, I see now that you did. It just didn't sound like you. ;0) Holy Cow, I would have given you a pass on this one.

Re: Mike H

Again, I agree with you. Maybe it's because I have 5 brothers, but I've never gotten the whole "football widow" thing. The men in my family did indeed use it as a time to bond: one of the cutest pictures of my youngest brothers is of him wearing the local teams baseball cap in his crib. In fact, in my family, the winner of the Super Bowl pool (all the boys in the family) has to drive the entire family to the annual hunting trip (no women allowed)... it's just something they get a lot of pleasure out of.

Doing all the math, Penny, was pretty impressive, but I also agree with Mike H. that most women have their own interests that take time away from the family. I have one good friend who spends one night a week out quilting and then most weekends she's headsdown on her quilting project (and usually every night after dinner as well). Shouldn't her husband have more of her time? What about the amount of time that many women spend on the phone with their friends? Holy COW I have seen one of my brothers' wives literally spend hours on the phone with her friends while he plays with their children... he doesn't begrudge her that time. He knows she gets something out of it, she gives HIM time to do her stuff. What I was suggesting was that they learn to find something to SHARE.

It seems to really boil down to compromise, and understanding what feeds your partner's soul. And then giving them space to do so.

LW1: The bi-polar son has found a convenient way and excuse never to do anything he doesn't want to do, and even to steal and get away with it. Anyone who helps support him is enabling him. Yes, marry Lynn ... and good for you both. But you and she need to be very clear that neither of you will ever enable the son again. And if she can't do that, don't marry her or you'll be sorry.
LW3: A woman has no right to expect the man to marry to change after they get married. And a man has every right to expect that a woman will not expect him to change. Men like that give no false impression before they get married. But how many women give false impressions before they get married, and then stop becoming the woman that their husband fell in love with after they get married. How can any man who was honest about who is was before he got married be blamed for continuing to be honest about who he is.?

LW1 - For those who think the LW shouldn't marry his lady love because of her son... all I'm going to say is that if my husband took your advice, he never would have married me based on my daughter's behavior. I did finally decide to have her live with her Dad so she could get the help she needed, but if I had chosen to have her continue living with me, I know DH would have stood behind that decision and helped me do whatever it took to help her... and I think he would have been willing because he knows I was willing.

Yes, the situation is difficult, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't commit to her or run away. It's up to the LW what he can or can't handle and to try and predict a life of misery for him if he marries the LW isn't fair or right. Maybe he already knows it's going to be hard and he's decided for himself as an adult that he can handle that as part of the package deal.

I also think it's cold to imply that somehow his partner is trying to manipulate him by crying when she hears someone is engaged. Some people want to marry someone they love more than life itself and it sounds like she's one of them. What's so wrong with that? And why should the LW be criticized for deciding on his own that he wants to marry her after all?

That aside, I agree that both of them must commit to doing something about her son before they even get engaged, because these problems only get worse if you don't address them. They must NOT allow him to live with them because he is abusive and he steals. She must be willing to accept that she cannot do anything about his behavior, that it's her son's responsibility to get his own help... and get support for herself. I would even suggest she and the LW do joint counseling so they can establish some ground rules together with someone neutral. From there I would suggest finding a support group for parents of adults with mentally ill children so she doesn't feel alone and so she can get suggestions from people who have "been there" on how to handle things that come up.

On that note, you cannot just get a guardian assigned to an adult arbitrarily, and not every state designates 21 as the magic age. The state where my daughter lives requires a conservator be assigned to an adult when they turn 18, and you have to prove way beyond any shadow of a doubt that this person is incapable of taking care of themselves because of a disability. That is NOT the same as someone who can take care of themselves just fine but prefer not to because it's easier to manipulate everyone into doing it for them.

It can also be very difficult depending on state laws to get a conservator or guardian assigned to an adult, especially if the court system is tied up. My ex went through hell and high water and I think it took the better part of a year for him to get the documentation they required to establish that he should be conservator, even though everyone fully acknowledged she needed the extra care. Apparently it becomes so difficult a lot of parents give up and allow their children to become property of the state, which from what I understand is a pretty God-awful fate in itself.

LW2 - I agree it's rude if someone invites you over only to have the TV blaring, especially to where you cannot even have a conversation with the host. My MIL pulled this crap - she had her televangelists or Christian programming going all the time, including when she'd host holiday gatherings, and she would insist everyone watch. If she had to leave the house for some reason she would bark at us not to shut off the TV or change the channel while she was gone. Then everyone would shrug and shut it off or find something else to watch anyhow, especially during football season, LOL.

My ex's family also had to have the TV or the radio on ALL THE TIME. When I left my ex I was so glad to have peace and quiet I barely watched TV or videos for a couple of years.

I agree there's nothing wrong with asking to turn off the TV and that if someone gets offended, that's their problem.

LW3 - Drinking heavily once a week and avoiding one's family to go party and have fun IS a bad example within the context of being married and having a child. Priorities change when you have a family - it's no longer just about you and you can't just do whatever you feel like doing. If you enjoy those components as a single person and that's how you want things to remain, then don't fricking get married or have kids!

I don't really hold out a lot of hope on trying yet another counselor. If he didn't listen to one already tell him this behavior is wrong, I don't see the benefit from spending more hours and money having someone else deliver the same message that he's not willing to hear anyhow.

@Mike H
"He's not cheating on her, he's not hitting her or their son, he's providing for them,"

Oh, so because she's not black and blue and at the doctor for an STD she got from him, everything else he does is okay?

I'm sorry, Mike, but this sounds like my ex who, when I would try to make him understand that calling me every name in the book and screaming at me for hours every day was no way to treat someone you claim to love, would jeer: "Me-e-e-eh... I'm not beating you up, what are you complainging about?"

Yeah, so he's providing for her - AND out with the boys "at least" once a week and either golfing or welded to the TV all weekend, every one of them. You claim she doesn't say he doesn't pull his weight around the house. Does she need to spell it out? How much time do you think he has left once the job, his basic needs, sleep and his fun are attended to? Go back to Penny's numbers.

Yes, watching sports together can be a bonding experience between father and son, but I will borrow from you and say that there is no indication that this ia happening. We don't know how old the children are, my feeling is that they're quite young - for her to be becoming more and more resentful after 19 years. If he's 39-early forties, then she's likely mid-to late thirties - the age where a lot women become mothers nowadays. Not to mention that excessive anything is always counterproductive - balance is everything.

Re: Penny

The proper term is not Holy Cow, but Holy Sh*t. Learn from the Master. ;-))))))))))))))

By the way, I think there are two Pennys on this board. You don't sound like the other one.

NOT like to watch football??? NOT like to watch athletic guys in tight pants running in slow motion down the field?? What is this generation coming to?

LW3's situation seems to be failing on gender fault lines BTL, but I've gotta say, she sounds like a nag to me. I think I'd drink excessively too if the things I liked to do - and always had liked to do even before marriage - were defined as "not growing up." (Unless it was bumper cars and Barbie dolls) Whining about how he enjoys his friends more than her isn't going to magically make him start enjoying her more. Agree that he needs to come to the table and talk about it if things are going to work, but they sound like they're stuck in a down spiral - BOTH of them.

LW1 - run like hell! Lynn is a master of passive-aggression - can't confront anything directly so she cries, breaks out in a rash, gets "depressed" - Yuck! You want to marry that? If so, make room for Mikey because there's no way she's going to kick him out and you'll end up being the bad guy.

LW3 - I just reread my comment regarding LW3 and I know what I meant but that's not what I said. Basically, this is the guy she married. Maybe he's setting a bad example, maybe not. She needs to decide if it's a deal breaker or not. Personally, I don't think it is. I think he sounds like a pretty average American dad/husband. Don't know what he does for a living. Don't know if she works. Don't know what he's neglecting by playing golf, watching sports and getting drunk once a week (that I'm not crazy about but I won't judge it). If she can't live with it any longer she needs to decide if she's better off with or without him.

Wait… is the LW in the third letter 19 years old or have they been married 19 years…? If they've been married 19 years and been to counseling numerous times, I sincerely doubt this is ever going to change.

Seriously. I haven't read the BTL yet, but how did others interpret that signature?

Re: D Galino

No one has the right to demand that the married spouse change something fundamental - she wouldn't have the right to expect he stop loving football, or he that she stop loving line dancing - for instance. With bounds of reason, of course.

But each do have a right to expect that the other grow from young adults & party animals to MATURE adults with family responsibilities. Like I told Mike H, I have a feeling their parenthood is rather recent. And as PS pointed out, priorities change with parenthood, or they ought to. She has adapted, he has not. Problem.

@PS
" I did finally decide to have her live with her Dad so she could get the help she needed"
That's the diffrerence. I don,t know what kind of stuff your daughter did, but you have no way of knowing if her behaviour would not have ended up ruinging your marriage if she had stayed with you and your new husband. Also, I'm sure the two of you discussed the situation before you tied the know. That, too, makes a big difference.

I personally don't think she is being manipulative in her sad faces and sighs when engagement of other couples are mentioned, but I do lean towards Jers - she sounds more like someone who has a habit of not paying attention to what she really wants and needs - a top-notch doormat.

Re: D Galino, Wait, wait, wait. "But how many women give false impressions before they get married, and then stop becoming the woman that their husband fell in love with after they get married." I'm just guessing here, but maybe it was him getting married and having CHILDREN. She was not up to her arm pits in dirty diapers, school projects, sleepless nights, ad nauseum before the marriage. Someone had to step up to the plate. "Here sweetie, you go play while I raise the baby, I don't mind." How come he doesn't have to change but she does? She no longer gets to party hardy because she has a child that NEEDS her to be there for him. That is called growing up and taking responsibility for your different life style - like - humm let me think - being married and having a child. So let's change roles now, would he be willing to stay at home while she goes out with her friends drinks excessively and plays golf and watches sports every week-end? She didn't turn into a mother all by herself. She grew up.
Nanchan@ Thanks, I had a calculator. You did make a point that many wives do time consumming thing. Does that make it right to ignore your family? Where people with children find the time I don't know.
Lise@, Holy Cows are real, Holy shit is not. Keepin' it real. If this shows up under your name sorry.

re: LW1:

One of the things I glossed over on this letter was the fact that the LW was married for 40 years to someone, then four years ago met "Lynn" after the divorce. No mention (at least in what we see) of any time in between the divorce and meeting Lynn, but let's say he met his first wife at 20, that would put the divorce at age 60. Even if he met Lynn the next DAY he'd still be about 64 right now. (Blast you Penny! Did you bring that coffee over to my house!? Just kidding) More likely he's in his mid to late 60s or may even early 70s.

If that's the case, then LW, PLEASE PLEASE get this issue settled before you even ask Lynn to marry you. If Lynn has a 20 year old, she's likely in her 40s or early 50s. That's a substantial age difference, although not unworkable. Depending on her financial situation (sorry to bring that up, but it is always there), she may be looking at you in a different way than you are looking at her.

I'm particularly struck by the lines: "She accepts that I don't want to marry, but I have noticed that when someone gets engaged, her mood changes dramatically. She becomes depressed and cries, and I can see the hurt in her face. " Dude, she is PLAYING you! Can't you see it? Maybe not, because you probably never thought you'd find another love at your age, or maybe you are still recovering from the extreme betrayal of your wife (after 40 YEARS? Wow, there's another side to that story) but you need to face the fact that you are still vulnerable and not jump into a nightmare situation with this woman.

Let me tell you, her parenting days are not over. Bottom line. Yours most likely ARE. Her son is NOT your responsibility but if you marry her, join your assets to hers, share a house, etc., he will BECOME at the very least a distraction, and at worse, yes, your responsibility. Another poster made a great point: Lynn raised this boy. Even my friend's BROTHER can go out and get the mail. Lynn's son sounds more lazy than anything and guess who is to blame?

At 64 (or older), you should be spending your time playing golf with LW3's husband, playing giant checkers at the mall, discussing Plato at a coffee shop with your buddies.... not bailing some loser out of jail because he wasn't raised correctly.

Lise@, my bad! I guess if the sh!t comes from the Holy Cow - it in turn is holy. I stand corrected. Carry on.

RE: Lise:
I am a mature family man who doesn't drink or party. So I understand your feelings. But that's not the point. If drinking and partying is what make the husband happy, we have no right to judge his "maturity". There are a lot of mature unhappy people out there. If I had married a drinking woman, or a woman who likes to spend money frivilously, I'd have no right to ever expect her to change. So, I wouldn't marry her to begin with. If I did, it would be my own fault, not hers.
You are wrong to expect him to change in ANY way. But this is a typical female perspective. Not a male one. So how about accepting that male and female perspectives are different, and that you have no right to judge him based on your perspective.

@Lise, except the flaw in your comment about LW3 is that there's no suggestion or even accusation that the LW *isn't* allowed to have her own interests as well.

There's also NO suggestion that SHE has made any compromise either.

In fact, her letter ONLY suggests that HE (and ONLY he) is the one who needs to change.

Sorry, but it's not just a "male perspective" here, it's a basic issue of fairness, and the compromises that need to be made in a relationship. She's asking HIM to do all the changing -- and that's neither fair nor a true compromise.

Also, there's NOTHING in her letter that says he's NEGLECTING his parental duties, just that his playing golf and watching football might "set a bad example" for their son. (It also suggests that their son is old enough where he can pay attention to what his father is doing, so not a toddler, at least, and quite possibly school age or older).

Definitely not enough in the letter as presented to extrapolate so firmly that he's in the wrong here, and that she's not overreacting or overly controlling.

Re: nanchan, Can I have my calculator back now?

Re: nanchan #6

Someone on this board has a friend in a similar situation (a friend with a brother who has manipulated the parents and is in danger of being passed on to the sibling as time goes on). We discussed it a few months ago, and gave some pointers for the friend to be strong and help the brother without getting sucked in too deep. Anyone remember when/where that was?

You are absolutely right that these situations only get worse as time goes by. I know your friend will appreciate your support in standing firm over the next few years! Good luck to her.

@Penny, but she's not saying he's playing golf *all weekend long*. Maybe he does his chores, does some yard work, then goes golfing for a few hours, and comes back to watch the game with his son. And she only says "at least once a week" for the drinking, so I take that to mean that much of the time it's only the once.

Remember, it's in her best interest to make him look like the villain here, so if it were *regularly* two or three times a week, she would have said so.

If she's feeling neglected as a wife, plenty of women golf. Plenty of women like to watch sports. And plenty of women can *compromise* like I suggested initially.

She didn't in ANY part of her letter suggest that she would compromise. She thinks the behavior is BAD. She didn't say "golfing once a month would be fine."

For all we know, she IS a terrible nag and this is the guy's way of staying sane! Perhaps she's been driving him out of the house more and more as their marriage went on, and she can't figure out how to stop.

Bottom line, nothing in her letter suggests she has really approached this as a partner willing to compromise and maybe even get involved with her husband's interests. Instead, these things are bad and must be stopped because they "set a bad example" which is a bit silly, to be honest, because the vast majority of American men today had fathers who watched sports on television!

And, yes, I think there IS a double-standard being ignored by many of the posters defending the LW here. If a husband were to dictate to his wife that she couldn't have a girls night out and couldn't go to her weekend garden club, he'd be a controlling monster she needed to escape from. But if a woman does the *same thing* to her husband, it's because *he* is the bad guy? Nuh-uh, not buying it one bit. Reverse sexism going on here, and a LOT of projecting of things that weren't in the actual letter.

Barring evidence that he's actually neglecting his child and his responsibilities at home, this seems more to be about her than him.

If I'd read even a hint that she'd tried to meet him half-way, I'd be more inclined to be sympathetic. But her letter doesn't read that way AT ALL, in fact, plenty of evidence in the letter that she doesn't feel she needs to change one bit, and he's the ONLY one who does. That *should* be a big red warning flag right there.

D Galino:

You sound rather biased in your opinion of LW3; on the other hand, some of us women have actually lived the problem described, so therefore, we can really say something about it.

You talk about not judging, isn't that what you are doing?

D Galino:

You sound rather biased in your opinion of LW3; on the other hand, some of us women have actually lived the problem described, so therefore, we can really say something about it.

You talk about not judging, isn't that what you are doing?

Re: Mike H. Oh, Mike, Mike, Mike, (I am detecting a pattern here as I sadly shake my head). Who is going to raise this baby? No take backs on this one. "There's also NO suggestion that SHE has made any compromise either." Oh my Dear, although I hate to call a baby a compromise, I guess I will have to. (Ignore the preposition at the end of the sentence.) Unless this is not his child, he had a HAND in this. (No Lise you can't have this one) Marriage is suppose to be a compromise. Otherwise stay single and childless. Mike, I think you have a dog in this hunt! I don't mean to break your heart all over again - so I won't say to go watch a rerun of Sunday's game. ;0)

jar8818:
If you have lived with the problem as you said, then, perhaps you too married the wrong person. That doesn't change a man's right not to have to change.

And I don't feel that I am judging ... just giving my male perspective in contrast to the female perspective I'm seeing here. I don't feel it's wrong to have that perspective ... since I'm not female. Women are entitled to their perspective. But I do feel it's wrong for women to expect a man to abide my their their perspective.

So you see, I'm not expecting women to see it my way. Only to see that we have a right to see it our way. And some women won't. So I'm not judging, but some women are.

jar8818:
If you have lived with the problem as you said, then, perhaps you too married the wrong person. That doesn't change a man's right not to have to change.

And I don't feel that I am judging ... just giving my male perspective in contrast to the female perspective I'm seeing here. I don't feel it's wrong to have that perspective ... since I'm not female. Women are entitled to their perspective. But I do feel it's wrong for women to expect a man to abide my their their perspective.

So you see, I'm not expecting women to see it my way. Only to see that we have a right to see it our way. And some women won't. So I'm not judging, but it seems to me that some women are.

Guys:

Like I said earlier, if the LW3's husband has a beef with her, HE SHOULD ADDRESS IT AND FIX IT!! Not just run away and play. That's what adults do.

LW1 - Our family has been afflicted by mental illness and it is a painful thing to experience.

One family member in particular is in his 40's and he becomes quite disturbing when he decides to slip away from his medications. He is Bipolar with Schizophrenia. During Hurricane Ike, he was dropped off at our home by another (clueless) family member and I eventually had to call the police when he threatened to kill my sister. So many police officers arrived that it looked like an ambush was about to transpire. When they confronted him and asked his name, he advised them that he was "Jesus" and that they were "Evil" and were going to "Die".

Yeah, scary stuff...

My in-laws thought nothing of just dropping him off at our home - where we had two teenagers - who are terrified of him when he is not balanced (He had terrorized us before). Not to mention that we had several family members staying with us due to the aftermath of the hurricane. This was an intense time and I was pinned off as the "Bad" guy because I chose the safety of my family.

It was not until my In-Laws actually "experienced" how frightening that he can be that they FINALLY appreciated my fear. For years, I had told them that he suffered from more than manic depression. Manic depressants do not go around proclaiming to be "God" and terrorize those they deem to be "Evil".

Long story short, he has been in and out of mental institutions. I love my BIL dearly but a part of me has been forced to shut him out in order to prevent my family from experiencing any further forms of terrorism. I have a hard time accepting that a man - who is so incredibly ill - chooses to smoke pot and continue to drink. Just one night of this sort of behavior inhibits the medications purpose. When he slides into this stae, he believes he is cured and no longer needs the meds. There are even some family members who drink and smoke right along side him and have the gall to wonder WHY he becomes "God" and becomes missing because he is living under a bridge with the homeless! Talk about keeping those blinders closed TIGHT!

My point of this rather long-winded story is that mental illness is a roller coaster ride - and you may find yourself someday becoming an unwilling passenger. It is also very unfortunate when others enable the behavior by contributing and / or making excuses and wiping their behinds. You have to be diligent in saying ENOUGH. And if this means shutting your doors - as hard as it may be - you just have to do this.

Metal illness obviously affects an entire family. I feel sad that Lynn's son is such a mess. He needs to be medicated. He needs to learn to be an advocate for his own life, his own decisions. As a mother, I can only imagine how tormented Lynn must feel. It is a part of our genetic makeup to want to help and protect our children. But, enabling his lame excuses will never mold him into a decent man. If the LW wants to marry Lynn, he needs to accept that her son will always be her son and the problem may never go away. But, if they love each other enough, set boundaries and stick with them - They should have a fighting chance.

It certainly is a Catch 22 when it comes to dealing with anyone who is afflicted with mental illness but at some point, you have to say NO to the insanity. If not, one just may end up on the crazy train too.

@Mike H, dave, nanchan and others who think the wife is being a nag over something that is not that big of a deal -- when I met my husband, he liked to go out with his friends and drink (sometimes excessively, but not every time), liked to play golf as often as he could (which, because he worked, was usually only on the weekends) and watch football (and not just one game on Sunday -- there's college football on Saturday, plus Monday Night Football, Thursday Night Football -- there's a whole lot of football going on).

Then he met me, and while he still liked doing all of those things, if he had to choose, he would choose me over them every day and twice on Sunday. Fortunately, I made it pretty easy to choose me -- because I don't make him choose. For one thing, I like football, too -- not as much as he does, but enough that I am usually content to watch several games with him. And I'm happy to do my own thing when he goes out with the guys -- and sometimes I join them (but only occasionally, as I don't want to "intrude" on male bonding). But it's not just that I've made it easy to choose -- it's also because he's an ADULT, and he realizes that ADULTS have certain responsibilities that sometimes preclude getting to do all the things you used to do ALL THE TIME.

Flash forward almost 15 years, and we no longer live near his friends, and if anything, I'm the one who has more outside interests. I volunteer as a marathon and triathlon coach for a charity organization, I volunteer with a collegiate organization at a near-by university, I'm on the board of our neighborhood association. Flash forward just a few years to the present, and add in the son we just had six months ago. I'm actually still doing all of those things, but I have had to cut back on all of them somewhat.

And THAT's the difference. Yes, maybe LW3 is a nag, and yes, maybe she is one of those people who thinks adults aren't supposed to have fun anymore. And yes, she definitely needs to do fun stuff with her husband. But as Penny noted with all of that math -- "going out once a week" and "playing golf and watching sports on the weekends" doesn't sound like much on its face...until, well, you do the math.

If hubby has been holding up his end of the parental and household chores bargain, then yes, perhaps the problem is LW3 is a stick-in-the-mud and a nag. I realize the LW didn't specifically say that he doesn't do his fair share, so we don't know. Personally, I'm betting Penny, Lise B and others have the right of it.

I hope LW3 is reading the BTL, because she's hearing both sides of the coin. It's hard to say for sure which side is closer to the truth.

And last but not least -- no, it's never too late for someone to change -- but it gets harder the longer it goes on, and that change can happen too late to make a difference. After all, if your son is 19, it may be a bit late to hope that Dad changing his ways is going to make much of an impression on your son. And similarly, if enough damage has already been done to your feelings for your husband and the marriage, then his change may be too late to resuscitate your feelings and your marriage, as well.

D Galino:

I'll grant you the letter doesn't have all the details, unless they were edited out like Samantha's letter the other day. But it still remains that she has gripes and if he has gripes, they just gotta talk it out and negotiate something so that they both can get at least something of what they want. Being married and a parent simply changes your life.

I do wonder if he drives around after he's drank excessively, sure hope not. That's another issue in itself.
--------------------------------------
Wonder if it would be better if the Annies would just print one letter in its entirety; no telling how often they've mislead all of us with the editing. I'm beginning to hesitate commenting now. How about the rest of you? Although the other few LW's that commented BTL didn't say theirs were butchered. Hmmmm.

@nanchan, thanks, I think you and Maggie are getting where I'm coming from.

Whew! Before it goes too much further, I kind of wish to point out what the LW did NOT say:

1) "My husband doesn't talk to me and hasn't touched me in years because all he does is watch sports"
2) "My husband ignores our son and doesn't do his share of raising him because all he does is play golf"
3) "My husband doesn't do any housework, yard work, or maintenance because all he does is get drunk"

What she DOES object to because he "either plays golf or watches sports every weekend" (not the "either", not "both") and goes out drinking "at least once a week" -- is that SHE THINKS it is "childish" because it reminds her of their "partying years" and may be a "bad example for their son".

That's it. And frankly, that's not a lot. It's pretty flimsy.

She also doesn't state in her letter that she's done anything at all to meet him half-way. She objects to him not changing to suit her wishes.

That's it.

Barring any more damning evidence, I still believe my initial reaction is more reasonable -- that she'd do far better to relax a little, seek a compromise where she isn't quite so controlling and disapproving of the behavior and instead tries to explain what else she'd like to be doing with him or have him doing with their son AND still find some time to support him in doing the things he likes to do.

I don't think her unilateral "he must stop this because I said so" approach is reasonable, loving, supportive, or indicative of a marriage with good communication.

Again, barring any additional evidence which may have been cut, and simply taking the letter at face value.

"Oh, so because she's not black and blue and at the doctor for an STD she got from him, everything else he does is okay?"

Exactly, and thank you for saying that. There is such a thing as emotional abuse and neglect, and often that kind of behavior gets blown off as "no big deal" because it doesn't seem as "severe" as verbal, physical, or sexual abuse, when in fact it can be very destructive.

As the first letter proves, emotional harm has consequences - the LW's girlfriend breaks out in a rash from anxiety over her son. That's very real!

If a spouse feels their better half is overstepping a line, that needs to be addressed, not ignored... and if the couple can't come to an agreement then they need to talk to someone neutral who can help them discern what needs to be done.

For the husband in this situation to refuse to respond to his wife's needs is selfish. If he wasn't doing anything wrong, then why did they end up in counseling, where I would imagine the counselor let him know he needed to make changes to keep his marriage healthy and have a good relationship with his son? If the counselor had felt his behavior was just normal guy stuff, don't you think that would have come through in the letter?

"I don't know what kind of stuff your daughter did, but you have no way of knowing if her behaviour would not have ended up ruining your marriage if she had stayed with you and your new husband."

Actually I do know, because she stayed with us for well over a year before I made that decision, and during that time her behavior escalated from being surly and cranky (as are a lot of 10 year olds) to outright violent. DH made it clear frequently during that time he would support whatever I felt was right for her, AND he wasn't going to go anywhere if my daughter ended up staying with us. In the end, he hated her having to go live with her Dad as much as I did but we believed despite her jackass father it was our best hope.

DH still says to this day he would be fine with her coming to live with us, and that's with no blinders on, full knowledge of how bad she got, and her even doing things to him. We're a lot wiser and more knowledgeable these days about resources that would help us make it work, and if not, we know of a place for disabled adults where she could not only live and get assistance but they work with the residents to learn life skills and self-reliance.

If she had remained with me, in retrospect, I would have had us attend family counseling to blend us better as a step-family and help her adjust better. I would have insisted on getting her professional help of her own and if my ex refused to comply (we had legal joint custody, meaning we had to agree on everything), I would have gone before a judge to fight him.

I would have fought my district harder to get her what she needed, and if necessary I would have gone the due process route with them (Translation: Dragged their butts to court). It wasn't until years after she'd gone to live with her Dad that I learned I could have gotten legal services for free to enforce the schools to do what was required of them...

Then again the middle and high schools where I was living were total crap anyhow, and I was a wreck, so I guess you could say it was a wash.

"Also, I'm sure the two of you discussed the situation before you tied the know. That, too, makes a big difference."

Yes and no. Of course we discussed my daughter being part of the package and he understood he was marrying not just a wife, but a family, and he understood that with autism, life would be very different.

Unfortunately, NONE of us, not me, my husband, my ex, NOBODY, anticipated that she was going to turn as violent and oppositionally defiant as she did, or that her behavior would escalate to the level where it got. There was no way of predicting that. Sometimes things happen in life and with your kids that you just would never anticipate and that's where the "for better or for worse" part of the ol' marriage vows factor into the picture.

In retrospect, and especially now that she can verbalize things she was going through back then, we see that her being bullied by students, teachers, and aides contributed a lot to her anger, but at the time? No way, we were so unprepared and caught off guard. So many things we would have all done differently if we knew then what we know now, that's for sure.

In essence, you can say we talked things out in advance as best as we were able, and we handled things as best as we knew how... sometimes that's all you can really do.

@jar8818, #45, no evidence to suggest he hasn't tried to talk with her about it, though.

Sometimes women can be the unreasonable, controlling ones in a relationship, you know. Even if they don't perceive themselves that way.

Just saying, there IS another side to this story that needs to be considered before deciding she is justified in her complaint.

in reference to sasakoons issue about the loud TV.
what about dr. and dentist offices. if no one is paying attention.is it appropriateto ask the office personel to turn off the television. i find reading much more relaxing without the backround sound.
also those infomercials that many offices now play just grate on my nerves. do we have a right to sit and wait without having to listen to these commercials?

in reference to sasakoons issue about the loud TV.
what about dr. and dentist offices. if no one is paying attention.is it appropriateto ask the office personel to turn off the television. i find reading much more relaxing without the backround sound.
also those infomercials that many offices now play just grate on my nerves. do we have a right to sit and wait without having to listen to these commercials?

Re: Mike

I agree with you 100%.

My husband and I were very close to another couple where the wife was incredibly controlling. It was okay for her to go gambling with friends while he was told to stay at home. She was the dictator of all and everything that poor man did. Well, one day - this guy decided he was a grown up and started to make his own plans / decisions. It was not long until she began to tell everyone she was going to kick him out because he was not meeting her "needs".

Hmmm.....

Maybe the LW's husband could be a bit more attentive. And that should definitely be addressed. But, there are two sides to every coin and the LW could very much be the clone of our friend.

@Mike H -- Is there some "reverse sexism" going on here? Oh, yes, you betcha. I haven't seen my initial post come through, yet, but in it I talk about some of my outside interests and the fact that, with my husband's help, I have been able to continue those interests (but to a much lesser degree) since the birth of our son back in July. But let me let you in on a little secret -- the woman ALWAYS has to make more sacrifices when there's a baby in the equation. Let's not get into things being "fair" -- NOTHING is "fair" about it.

I'm the one who had to get pregnant and carry the baby for almost 10 months (it actually is longer than 9 months, folks). I'm the one who had to stop eating and drinking a whole list of things. I'm the one who couldn't see her feet. I'm the one who couldn't get comfortable enough to sleep. I'm also the one who had to deliver this baby. And now, I'm the one who STILL can't eat and drink certain things because I'm breastfeeding. And don't get me started on stuff related to all of that. I'm also the one who can't ever be gone for more than four to five hours at a time (yes, you can pump breast milk to be fed to a baby via a bottle, but then you spend those four to five hours away with boobs that get bigger, heavier and more sore by the minute -- and you're probably going to be leaking all over your clothes -- kind of makes it tough to make the most of whatever activity you had in mind). Sure, eventually, most of these issues go away (though some don't -- I know moms who are incontinent due to childbirth, permanently -- I am lucky that didn't happen to me).

But one of the things that frequently (not always) happens as a result of this: mom spends more time with the baby, so mom gets to know how to handle baby, how to "decode" his different cries, etc. -- basically, she's more comfortable with the baby, and the baby is more comfortable with her, so a very subtle (or, in some cases, not-so-subtle) pattern emerges, where the baby is "her" job, with daddy just occasionally "filling in" (so she can go to the bathroom, take a shower). Next thing you know, the kid is 10 years old, and even though breastfeeding and all that stuff is but a distant memory, that subtle pattern continues, because, well, it's just what everyone's used to at that point.

I don't mean to rant about this, I really don't. I am EXTREMELY fortunate to have a husband who is very much a hands-on dad and who is entirely aware of the fact that his contribution to creating and caring for this child simply is NOT equal to mine (at least for now) and therefore really does go out of his way to make sure I have time to do things for me. But there's a reason he was able to go to one of the big college bowl games with a group of buddies and make a whole weekend of it, and I can't do that and won't be able to do that for quite some time to come. It's ALL TOO EASY for me (and, clearly, other women at the BTL) to imagine the scenario: party girl meets party boy. They party together and get married and continue the party. One night, all that partying leads to a pregnancy. Suddenly, party girl can't party anymore -- but party boy can...and does. And eventually, you wind up with LW3 -- begrudging even an iota of fun for her party boy who has never grown up, because he doesn't have to, while party girl had to grow up and feels all alone in the adult world without an adult partner.

PS - you say " If he wasn't doing anything wrong, then why did they end up in counseling, where I would imagine the counselor let him know he needed to make changes..." What you imagine happened and what really happened are quite possibly two different things. We can't know from this letter, but as Mike has pointed out there is nothing in this wife's complaint beyond her feeling ignored that makes HIM the sole "bad one" in the marriage. Notice that she also said "The counselor has not helped." In womanspeak, that usually means "The counselor didn't say I was right and he was wrong."

I still say - what is it that she wants him to come home to? A nagging, grumpy woman who is jealous of the time he spends with his friends? As others pointed out, beyond her projection of his being "a bad example" for the son, there's no indication that he doesn't contribute money to the household, do his share of chores, or whatever else. I'm not saying he does - I'm saying that for a woman this anxious to make him the bad guy, it's interesting what she DOESN'T say.

But I should just add that, as I said before -- there ARE two sides to every coin, and it IS possible that the wife is an unreasonable nag. We don't have enough info in the letter (whether because LW didn't provide it or the Annies hacked it out) to know one way or the other. That's why I appreciate seeing the various perspectives offered here BTL and why I hope the LWs see the BTL. We don't live in a black-and-white world where one perspective is entirely right and one perspective is entirely wrong. At the BTL, we have all the shades of gray and the whole rest of the color wheel, too. I might have a favorite color, and there might be some colors I don't care for -- but I'm glad they all exist.

@Lisa, #55, not downplaying any of the issues of the tolls of motherhood -- but LW3 didn't say ONE WORD about husband not helping out at home, not helping out with the child, etc.

Everyone is *assuming* because they are *reading things into the letter that aren't specified*.

I don't think that's fair.

She also didn't say anything about attempting compromise, or she herself not being able to have fun.

You know, there are also women, wives and mothers, who create completely unreasonable expectations towards their husbands and also don't feel they need to compromise at all.

That there are clear communication problems in this marriage, differing expectations, is one thing we can probably all agree on. But there's every possibility SHE is the one being unreasonable here, being hard-nosed, uncompromising, and unsympathetic.

Going golfing OR watching sports on TV every weekend is not necessarily being a "party dude". She doesn't give us any indication of *how much* of the weekend he's doing those activities. For all we know she may feel that 4 hours on Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday is "excessive" -- and yet that leaves plenty of time for him to be doing all sorts of fatherly and husbandly things outside of his golfing and sports.

And why can't he watch the kid while he watches sports and she goes out shopping or out for coffee with her girlfriends?

Again, I think people are extrapolating way too much based on a very thin letter, and it's unfair to the husband. There are plenty of good, strong, healthy long-term marriages where the husband watched sports every weekend and went golfing.

There's either a lot more to this letter that was left out OR the LW has unreasonable expectations and is a bit controlling.

Re: D Galino
Re: LW3
As a woman, I agree with you 100%. When I first met my husband he put it right out front about who he was. I did the same thing. It was then up to each of us to decide if this person was the one we wanted to be with. It is because we have never tried to change the other and respect one another that makes our marriage work. This is not to say we have never had an issue here or there because we have, all marriages do at some point. That's where compromise comes into play. But again, these issues have never been about the person each of us are. Have each of us changed over the years.......yes of course we have. However our core values are still the same, RESPECT the person for who they are. We are still each others best friend and just spending time together is what we enjoy the most. This is not to say that we don't have interest that the other doesn't enjoy. I enjoy sewing and needle work, he enjoy being in his shop doing whatever it is that he does out there.

I also agree that some women and men too, put on a front while dating and as soon as they "I do" everything changes. While others flat out tell their partner that this or that WILL CHANGE once we are married. Then they wonder why the marriage doesn't work out.

The bottom line is, respect for you partner and accepting them for who they are is in my opinion, the key to a happy and successful marriage / relationship. This has worked for us for almost 30 years.

Thanks Bailey, and I agree with you 100% too. You sound just like my wife, and your marriage sounds just like ours.
Your husband's a lucky guy.

Dave Galino

re LW3 - I think the problem for the LW is that her husband does not seem to balance his free time so that there is time for his family. In the original letter, it appeared that the husband only went to the bar on Saturday night - if we are talking one evening a week, big deal. But the LW's husband is leaving her to entertain the kids for the ENTIRE weekend. Golf tends to take a full day and then spends a signifcant time on Sunday watching sports. He is leaving no time to build a relationship with his children or nurture the marital bond with his wife. The biggest issue though, is that counseling has not helped. This indicates that LW3's husband knows that she is unhappy, but doesn't care enough to make a change. I completely understand her resentment. Sure, she can develop other interests - but that is beside the point. When the children are out of the house and this couple barely knows each other, LW3's husband may one day find himself shocked when his wife ups and leaves.

@Chris re LW2 - That is funny! Sounds like something you would see on a sitcom.

re LW1 - I disagree with the Annies and many people BTL. I think LW1 should rethink marrying Lynn. No matter what she says, I doubt that she will ever be able to see Mike on the streets and not take him in. If he marries Lynn, he needs to resign himself to the fact that Mike will either live in their home at some point, or they will be financially supporting him in some way. If he can not accept that this is not a problem that is likely to go away during their marriage; then he should not waste her time or his own.

I agree with Joyce, who suggested that LW3 stop waiting around for her husband to show interest in family life and go have some fun of her own. However, let me assure you that it's a dangerous strategy. My husband has a few hobbies (snowmobiling, fishing, working on engines, TV etc.). All very healthy, and it IS good to have some time and interests apart.
However, hobbies/interests can become too consuming to the detriment of the family. When my husband's interests started to take over, I stopped moping around waiting for him to want to do something fun with me and the kids. I even stopped asking (or even nagging) him to do things with us--which mainly led to resentment on his part and/or disappointment on mine.
So, I started to make plans for outings with the kids myself. Sometimes I was even able to make plans with other friends/family members who also have kids and meet up with them for fun activities. This allowed me to enjoy some adult interaction while the kids had fun too. I stopped nagging about me doing too much around the house (which I was) and too much solo care-taking with the kids (which I was). I just did was I was interested in doing and made sure the kids had fun too. Some things around the house started to slide...and I just bit my lip and turned a blind eye to it (very hard to do). I also let him know when I was planning to take some "down" time for myself to pursue my own interests, and that he'd need to watch the kids or make arrangements for them during these times. I didn't go often or for very long, but I did get out of the house on my own some.
It didn't take long for me to realize how well I was getting along without my husband. I was enjoying life, and he didn't need to be a part of that picture. I was raising the kids and doing the important/necessary stuff around the house without him.
It also didn't take too long for him to start commenting about how the kids seemed to "prefer" me to him. (Really??? Go figure!) I pointed out that I spent a lot of time with them. He also started to make noises about missing us (the kids and me), but I continued to make plans with the kids and myself. I'd let him know about the plans (usually right before the plans were happening, unless he asked), but didn't feel compelled to ask/beg/nag him to go. Finally, he sheepishly started asking if he could come along sometimes. He also started to noticed that I seemed more distant emotionally. We had some good (calm) talks about why that might be. And he was more willing to listen because he was asking me; I wasn't nagging him.
Fast forward a couple of years: We mostly co-parent pretty well now. Our marriage is better by far now. But I'm not sure he understands what a near miss it was. It's a dangerous thing to let your spouse find out that they can be pretty happy and functional without you....and that they're doinig most of the work themselves anyway.

Re: Penny
Holy Sh*t is not real? Gee, maybe it's faith, but I do believe the Holy Saviour did manage to take a crap once a day while he was human - hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee ;-)))))))

"Lise@, my bad! I guess if the sh!t comes from the Holy Cow - it in turn is holy. I stand corrected. Carry on." ROTFLMAO!

@D Galino
So lemme get this straight - according to you, women should accept that the male perspective is: if partying, drinking and carousing, coming home stone drunk "at least" once a week and spending the entire weekend, EVERY weekend on sports is what makes the man hap-py, then the little woman should just shut up and take it? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

A lot of people, men and women both, are absolute party animals in their childless youth. Then they marry, have children, and the partying days are not necessarily completely over, but much reduced - for both of them. That's called growing up and taking their responsibilities like mature adults - balanced adulthood means am equilibrium between work and play for both partners. But you are fighting for the right for this Peter Pan to just have fun-fun-fun all the time, all the time, all the time, and behave as if his wife was the resident den-mother. She IS a mother - but not his.

There would be nothing wrong with a compromise. But if they have been to the marriage counsellor numerous times, doubtless many of them will have been suggested and he won't budge. And apparently, you find this perfectly acceptable!

Must be man-o-pause or somethin'...

@Mike H
"the flaw in your comment about LW3 is that there's no suggestion or even accusation that the LW *isn't* allowed to have her own interests as well."
How is she getting any relief or any time for her own "interests", when he's either never there to provide it or welded in front of the TV set? You keep saying that there is no indication that he's not pulling his weight around the house, but he sure doesn't have much time left at his disposal to do that.

"she's not saying he's playing golf *all weekend long*."
"On weekends, he is either playing golf or watching sports."
"Either or". Seems pretty clear to me. I know you love watching sports on TV, dear Mike, but come on, now - look at the timeline. For real - because so far, you've been minimising his wrong and maximising hers!

As for nanchan's suggestion that she join him, it's all very nice if she can generate an interest. Personally, perhaps I could get to like football if I understood any of it (prefer soccer), but I absolutely HATE golf and yes, I did try it. Not to mention - who'll take care of the kid(s) if they're both on the green?

@Anji
You are absolutely RIGHT to choose the safety of your family over that of a bipolar, paranoid/schizophrenic 40 year-old ADULT. If your in-laws poo-poo the situation in order to foist him on you (therefore proving they don't give a rat's ass about you and your children), you have my full permission to borrow my potty mouth for a minute. Glad she was finally able to have the shoe on the other foot.

"I have a hard time accepting that a man - who is so incredibly ill - chooses to smoke pot and continue to drink."
Unfortunately, the behaviour of irrational people cannot make sense to the ones who ARE rational. My friend Sandra knows someone like that, Mister Crazy Singer had a sister like that. They have it in their head that it's the medication that makes them crazy (this is a direct quote) and that drinking and smoking will make them normal. Yes, I know, arse-backwards, but that's why they're mentally ill.

@jar8818
"Wonder if it would be better if the Annies would just print one letter in its entirety; no telling how often they've mislead all of us with the editing. I'm beginning to hesitate commenting now. How about the rest of you?"
I join you in the wondering. Verbose as I am, I will not hesitate on the commenting part, but I am more than ever aware that the Annies are quite capable of maliciously amputating a letter to suit their agenda, like they did with Samantha's. There was NO EXCUSE for them doing that, and I will NOT forget it.

@PS
You husband sounds like an angel on patience, and with a level of tolerance bordering on sainthood. Not all men are, you're very lucky. Precisely because there is no way to predict how bad it can get and, as nanchan pointed out, the man is at the very least 64, I still suggest that he should only pop the question under condition that her son NEVER lives with them, and that it's a deal-breaker if she tries to sneak him in.

@john mockus
Bring an iPod.

@Mike H re post #58 - You are correct that certain assumptions are being made, but I think these are based on the text in the letter. LW3 seems to indicate that her husband in addition to coming home intoxicated once per week, is spending his entire weekend with his attention devoted to interests other than his family. Some people simly watch sports - I know quite a few others who are so engrossed by the game they are watching that NOTHING else can compete for their attention. For some people sports fanaticism can be as addictive as a person who plays video games with all of their free time.

I don't think the LW is controlling - or rather I think that she may be behaving in a controling manner because she feels hurt, neglected, and lonely. You seem to have a loving relationship - I am sure this is because you both understand that the relationship needs to be nurtured and because you genuinely enjoy spending time with each other. If your significant other repeatedly demonstrated that spending time with you was at the bottom of the to-do list, wouldn't you feel hurt and neglected?

@Lise, "Personally, perhaps I could get to like football if I understood any of it (prefer soccer), but I absolutely HATE golf and yes, I did try it. Not to mention - who'll take care of the kid(s) if they're both on the green?"

That is beside the point really. I am all for taking an interest in the things that interest your partner, but shouldn't the pendulum swing both ways? Neither of them should be comsumed with things to the exclusion of each other. Neither should one partner feel that if the want to spend any time with the other, the time must always be focused around SOLELY that partner's interests.

Re: wyochick

Best post of the day on this, in my opinion.

Re: Lise Brouillette
i commented on the TV in doctors offices

why did you aim this tiraid at me?

@Lise, sharnee -- it really depends a LOT on what she means by "every weekend". If he's consumed by these hobbies by more than 7 hours a day or more on both Saturday and Sunday, sure.

But if he's spending 4 hours each day or *less* on Saturday and Sunday on these activities and she still sees that as taking up "the weekend", then no.

You both know he's not waking up at 8am and plopping himself in front of the television until midnight, so there's a real question of perspective here.

Partners should want to spend time with each other, yes, but partners don't need to spend every moment together, either. And yes, he should want to share things with her -- but again, we have NO INDICATION that she's made any attempt at this.

Back around again to communication -- she doesn't at all, once, say what ISN'T happening when he's engaged in sports or golf. And he may be watching the game with his son while she gets her own time off -- there's no indication that the child is an infant or toddler, either.

Again, lots of assumptions being made that aren't there. Barring more evidence, I'm not on board for this automatic assumption that he's in the wrong, or that she doesn't share some responsibility for compromising more.

@wyochick -- I agree with nanchan -- your post was excellent!

Re: sharnee
Of course the pendulum should swing both ways = both about showing interest in the other's interestsm and in balancing work and play - for both of them.

@john mockus
Three words is a tirade? You mock us, John.

@Lise, you've also neglected to consider the fact that the counseling might not have worked because SHE was the one who wouldn't compromise. You've missed that point a few times.

She also doesn't say *anywhere* that she doesn't have time for her own interests; my own dad watched me while watching sports and my mom got out of the house, and I know *plenty* of families for which the same is true.

There's a lot of stuff that you are assuming that simply isn't in the letter one way or the other, and you seem too quick to absolve her of any responsibility and put the entire onus on him. That's your right, but the evidence in the actual letter is too flimsy to justify that, in my opinion.

If he really were as bad as everyone is trying to make him out to be, her letter would have been much more strongly worded. (Unless, of course, the Annies edited that out -- but we'll never know). The parts of the letter *as published* don't seem anywhere near as bad as you and some other commenters are trying to make him out to be.

Re: Lise Brouillette
i missed that your little comment was for me
i thought the whole article was at me
appologies all around

Re: Lise Brouillette
i missed that your little comment was for me
i thought the whole article was at me
appologies all around

Interesting.

Guy who puts himself and drinkig golfing buddies ahead of his family is getting the buy cause he might have a stressful hard job, does this a few timea s week, tunes out family needs--children/wife--maybe other family.

Who said his wife does not have the stress going on with her job plus the 24/7 care of the family issues once she punched out on the paying time card. She gets the same rights as a citizen, doesn't she? Or is this the Cinderella Syndrome--Do as I say, Not as I do--or when I tell you that you can.

If a mom did this, you can bet the tongues would wag, he woukd be complaining to his bartender he never gets to be with his friends--has to take care of his children, have them join them on the golf course, etc. So where is equality.

When YOU CHOOSE to get married and CHOOSE to have children together, you made the choices of life change.

To be a turd and run off with your past life is unacceptable.

To say she should join in what HE does? Maybe he should join what SHE does too.

She is getting the screwed end of the deal all the way around.

Re: Mike H

Of course, a lot of assumptions are being made but as Sharnee pointed out, a lot of them come from the letters themselves. And a number of realities... as Sharnee again pointed out, some people (many, in fact) become so engrossed in the game that I wouldn't entrust them to watch a three year old at the same time. And golf does tend to take a whole day, not just a few hours. It's entirely possible she has a perfectly legitimate complaint and that his free times is parcelled out as if she and the kid didn't exist. There should be a balance, and it doesn't look like there is.

"You both know he's not waking up at 8am and plopping himself in front of the television until midnight, so there's a real question of perspective here."
No, we don't. Perheps you haven't, but I have seen some people do exactly that!

Oh, regarding my comment #68, when I saw "question of perspective", I mean the LW's perspective.

Lots of people toss of statements like "Oh, he does that ALL THE TIME", when "all the time" could mean every day, several times a day, or once a month.

So "every weekend" could mean all sorts of things to the LW -- from 7-8 hours a day both days of the weekend, or maybe just 4-5 hours on one of the days, or 3-4 hours each day... but each of those situations is really QUITE different, and "the math" that everyone is concerned about also varies.

So, in spite of the fact that from "her perspective" he could be spending "every weekend" golfing or watching sports, the actual percentage of time he spends each weekend doing those things could be as little as 20% -- giving him LOTS of time to be doing other stuff with her, with their son, or around the house.

We. Don't. Know.

Her letter wasn't specific enough, and so without understanding her perspective on how much time his other interests are taking up "every weekend", her complaint will have more or less merit.

It's also true to remember that he watches sports tv at home, and so that IS something he could be doing with his son, and with her -- so sports television could very well BE a family activity, or a father-son bonding activity.

She doesn't say it is or it isn't.

There are guys who assume just cause they are a SD (sperm donor) they get the free ride the rest of their lives.

@Joyce, there's no evidence in the letter that the needs of his buddies come *first*; he might be spending PLENTY of time with his wife and son, just not ENOUGH as far as she's concerned -- but SHE may be the one with the unreasonable expectation.

@Lise, if his behavior were really that exaggerated, it would have been in the letter. And such behavior is pretty rare.

But the assumptions being made here AREN'T coming from the letter, they're being wildly extrapolated solely from HER perspective without ANY real consideration for HIS.

Every step you've looked at this, you've not considered that he may have a point, he may have some reason, and you haven't wanted to face the very real possibility that SHE is being unreasonable, controlling, uncompromising, and exaggerating for effect.

As described in the letter, his behavior is NOT as bad as being extrapolated BTL. Heaven forfend we consider that perhaps the woman in the scenario is the one who's being unreasonable and demanding, and perhaps needs to compromise a bit. Especially given how weak her ACTUAL complaint is.

@Joyce, there are women who assume that just because they put a wedding ring on their husband's finger, they get to put a ring through his nose as well, and lead him around by it for the rest of his life.

Nothing says he has a son. So where is the interaction availability if it is a daughter. Does he join her at her dance classes? Gymnastic events? Volleyball or swim meets? Gee, what if the child does not like sports? Lets her out the rest of her life.

Nothing like getting to the end of your life and you look back at what you neglected to do with your family. The precious memories can't be redone. And heaven help if you listen when your children tell you about their day.

Last night my 5 yr old granddaughter called, all excited--had spent the last 3 days with me. Been home for about 3 hours. BUT I took the time to draw her out a paper doll dress to color. I made her an art foam doll to finish creating. She wanted to know about coloring the sleeves of the dress, even tho we put polka dots on them.
PRECIOUS. HER VOICE. LOVE YOU GRANDMA.
As my kids always end, LOVE YOU MOM. Always ended the conversation whether discussing school, etc and parting words--LOVE YOU MOM.
Yeah. I won't forget--simple words as we age and go out and about our own issues. Their voice and they appreciate what you do with them.

Re: Penny #34

YOU ARE SO FUNNY! And yes, HOLY COW is the phrase of our neck of the woods and then when you went into your first bar experience, the rest were saying HOLY SH_T. They must step in it on a regular basis.

Growing up raising cows and steers, you had opportunity for stepping in PIES. Chickens had plain old poop. Pigs had stink--which got on you before you got in the hog barn. And horses had APPLES. Much unlike the horse apples which grow on trees.

@sharnee, thinking about your comment #64, I think in some part one reason I'm "digging my heels in" on this issue is that I'm really resistant to any situation where one partner *dictates* to the other; far too much of the wording of the LW today gives that indication.

I've made a point, more than once, that she doesn't give any indication of compromise on HER part, either, and that is a LARGE part of why I am not more sympathetic to her cause.

If Ike started doing something apart from me, a lot of the time, then we'd *talk* about it. I wouldn't insist he change to suit *my* perspective or *my* needs without understanding why he was doing what he was doing, and figuring out where I might need to change *my* expectations as well. To me, that's part of the deal inherent in being in a relationship. It's automatic. If you can't figure out how to do that with your partner, you're going to have problems.

And sometimes one partner DOES get more attention, or freedom, or time, or whatever. You can't expect to be 50-50 on everything every time. You figure out where you go 60-40, and figure out where you conversely go 40-60. But it has to be *mutually agreed to*.

Very early on, I pointed out the "he's not beating them, he's employed", etc, etc. Not because that means he's automatically a GOOD husband for not being abusive or unemployed -- but the fact that he ISN'T doing any of those terrible things means that she does NOT have the right to "dictate terms" to him, either.

If he WAS abusive, then, sure, that's a different situation, and she should make demands and ultimatums. Same thing if he is chronically unemployed and not looking for work and just watching TV all day every day and not helping out at all.

But the situation, as described, is NOWHERE near that extreme. And so I *strongly* believe that the UNILATERAL way she is approaching this issue is not productive or justified. She's his wife, not his boss.

Give me any evidence that she's tried to compromise or that he's neglecting the family in specific ways, and I'll change my mind. Barring that, I still *strongly* disagree with the character assassination going on regarding LW's husband and with completely exonerating her from any responsibility in the problem or how they are approaching it.

@Joyce, are you reading the same letter? Specifically mentions their *son*.

@Mike H. - I don't really think I am inferring as much from the letter as you believe. Per LW3 - "His main goals were to play golf, watch football and go out with his friends. We have since become parents, and my husband is still stuck in that cycle."

At least from her perspective, his focus is the same as always - Golf, football, and friends. By indicating that he is "still stuck in that cycle", at least from the way she sees it, his family is not his priority.

Also, she wrote, "We have been to marriage counseling numerous times, and nothing has changed." This is not a communication issue if they have been to counseling numerous times. At least, it would appear that she is communicating HER displeasure since she expected something to change as a result of counseling- so I would venture that the failure to communicate his true thoughts and motives are on his end.

Finally, you wrote, "You both know he's not waking up at 8am and plopping himself in front of the television until midnight, so there's a real question of perspective here."

Actually, no I don't know that. My ex-husband was from another country where soccer reigns supreme. I kid you not when I tell you that during soccer season he was absolutely useless. And even worse when his home country was playing a game. Guys from his country would go to the home of whoever had the international channel that aired the game - AT THE ACTUAL GAME TIME. Literally, he would get up at 4 AM to go to someone else's house to watch a game that began it 5AM our time. Of course watching the game with friends must include beer. In the beginning our marriage, I honestly didn't mind - I thought his devotion to the game was cute. I even learned to like the game and watched it with him. By the end of our marriage, that was honestly the least of my worries, so I never gave him a hard time about it. But yes, there were times that knowing that the kids and I would always take a backseat to his first love - Soccer - was hurtful. He was such a sports fanatic that I really only had about 3 months out of every year - when American Football season ended and Soccer season began that I could maybe get him to do something that I was interested in doing.

Assuming that getting out of the house means getting the groceries bought and other errands done, why does not the dad and the children get the gardening taken care of--that is an every few days job, or scrubbing the floors, doing the laundry--unless the magic fairy spreads dust around----

When my family gets me to the piss off point, I pull out my white cooking spoon. I taped long pieces of ribbon onto it. Wave it in the air and say some 'magic words', then tell them to get their crap down cause the wand is out of power.
They always know they have crossed the line when that happens. Does not matter the age--grandchildren esp understand it. My eldest will just grin, look at me and then say O.K. And get 'er done. Because I have 6 foot + children, I sometimes stand on a chair or step stool. When all things are right in MY world, I let it be right in theirs. My d-i-l finds this method works well in their household too. Like playing a game of poker, who wants to be shorted cards---take your pick in the game of life poker.

Re: Mike H
WHERE??? STATES WE ARE PARENTS. Not gender. I am referring to Letter 3 not 1.

re Post #83 - I agree with all that you have said. But my point is that apparently there IS an imbalance here and LW3 maybe trying to achieve balance by pulling her husband to the center. Of course she comes off as over-bearing. But in my opinion, she comes off more as frustrated and hurt.

Finally, don't you consider emotional neglect to be abusive? If the LW really feels that her husband is not giving anything to nurture the marriage, then he is neglecting her. No, he shouldn't cater to her every whim and need. Hardly. But in a healthy relationship, neither partner should feel starved for attention from the other.

@Joyce, part of letter 3 is this line: "I also worry that he is setting a bad example for our son."

@Mike H -- I have already conceded there is the possibility that the LW is more at fault than the husband (even if my own gender bias has me leaning the other way). Just wanted to note that while it's highly unlikely that the husband is waking up at 8 a.m. and plopping himself in front of the TV until midnight, you also need to understand that four hours can mean a lot of different things if you have kids. For one thing, most kids have what I call the "window of opportunity" -- that is the (sometimes small) slice of the day when they are well-rested, well-fed and in a great mood. Depending on the age of the child, that slice of the day is bigger or smaller, and it may even happen several times throughout the day. The problem is, you have to be there right at that time to catch it. Four hours out of 24 doesn't sound like a lot. Borrowing Penny's calculator for a second, however, once you subtract the 6-8 hours you need for sleep, subtract the amount of time spent prepping for golf and driving there, the amount of time spent just socializing before and/or after the game (let's face it -- you don't get there, immediately start playing and then the second the round is over, jump in your car and drive right home, right?), the amount of time driving back home, showering up, afterwards, etc., you realize that 1) you don't really have 24 usable hours in your day (let's call it 18 -- but I think we both know that's being generous), and 2) it's probably not really "just" four hours (let's call it 5 hours -- could be closer to 6). But if you're golfing at, say, 10 a.m., and let's say it's an 18-hole round, that means you're done around 2 -- that means it's possible you've missed (or rushed through) breakfast with the kids and also missed lunch with the kids. If you're watching football, and you're at all like my husband, that means you've invested in NFL ticket on DirecTV, which means you can watch every single game on Sunday, plus the Monday and Thursday night games. And even if you're just watching one football game, it can take a good four hours to get through that, as well. If it's the first game of the day, that's from 1-5 p.m. (depending on your time zone), which can interfere with lunch and/or dinner, and since many places on Sundays are only open from noon to 5 or 6 p.m., you've pretty much killed most of the "usable" day. Sure the kids can watch football with you -- if they're old enough (my pediatrician urged me not to let my son watch TV until he's 2) and if they're interested in the game (not all are) and as long as they're still getting a decent amount of physical play/exercise (which, as a general rule, also needs to happen during the "window of opportunity").

In our household, in order to have more "usable" time on Sundays, we are up early and try to get whatever chore or adventure (or both!) done before kick-off, because we both know once the game starts... I'm not complaining about this. I like football. My family had season tickets to the NFL team in our area, so I spent many a Sunday eating stadium dogs and screaming at the refs. I'm just saying that calling it just "4 hours" out of a 24-hour day isn't really as small of a commitment as it sounds, particularly if it happens during that "window of opportunity."

@sharnee, #88, except, for example, we don't know WHY counseling failed. As Maggie mentioned above, it could be the counselor was saying things SHE didn't want to hear. Like maybe her husband's leisure time wasn't as excessive as she was making it out to be.

Note, *if* she has unreasonable expectations about how much time he is "allowed" to spend on leisure activities, then isn't she going to see it as an imbalance even if most of us wouldn't? And wouldn't she be frustrated if her husband and her counselor disagreed that her husband was in any way "neglectful"?

Yes, there are obviously problems, but that doesn't mean that they are HIS fault. For all we know he's already cut down on these activities and it's not enough for her.

"We cannot reach an agreement on what is acceptable." Doesn't mean that what SHE is fighting for as "acceptable" truly IS acceptable.

That's all I'm saying.

#90, Lisa, again, absolutely -- but we don't know if part of his tv-sports-watching is time WITH his son, she doesn't indicate that one way or another.

And it depends on what he gets done. On the weekends, I wake up between 6am-7am, and tend to do laundry, the dishes, and some light household cleaning, and often the grocery shopping, before Ike even wakens at 10am. If I then relax from noon-2 or 3pm, he MIGHT think I'm being lazy.

Again, see, it's all a matter of perspective. There's so much we don't know that I don't think it fair to automatically assume the worst about him and the best about her.

Mike H, Don't make me get my calculator out again! Whats with the 20%, you are obviously not a golfer. Next - do you and Ike take turn watching the children? WHAT??? You and Ike don't have kids? I think this may be the reason why you believe the way you do. Put Ike on, I wanna talk to HIM. That halo is starting to slip and I bet Ike could fill me in on the good stuff!

OK MIKE< FOUND IT.

heading for a mile swim and then to the MN Caucus.

@Lise – comment #63,

You asked D Galino “So lemme get this straight - according to you, women should accept that the male perspective is: if partying, drinking and carousing, coming home stone drunk "at least" once a week and spending the entire weekend, EVERY weekend on sports is what makes the man happy, then the little woman should just shut up and take it?”

I do not interpret his comments this way, but more in line with other comments that posted here in the past, namely if you are dating someone who is irresponsible, lazy, borderline or actual alcoholic, abusive, fill in the blank with some other description as needed, after getting married do not be surprised that you have a spouse is irresponsible, lazy, borderline or actual alcoholic, abusive, fill in the blank with some other description as needed. If you have children with this person, do not be surprised that your child(ren) have a parent who is irresponsible, lazy, borderline or actual alcoholic, abusive, fill in the blank with some other description as needed. Getting married and/or having children will not automatically results in a person becoming more responsible, working harder, getting sober, acting nicer, etc., but some people actually expect this to happen based on the plots of the umpteen “Hollywood” romance movies that they have watched.

We have said this to other posters earlier in their relationship who have seen bad behaviours in their loved ones and asked about them, stating that they need to decide if they can accept these behaviours for the rest of their lives. If the answer is yes, then have a great life together. If the answer is no, then end the relationship and try to find someone else.

We have also said many times that we cannot force someone to act the way that we want, we can only decide if their behaviour is tolerable to us. Trying to force someone to give up bad or even destructive behaviours often fails, because the behaviours are so resilient in the people who enjoy them.

Note: I am not necessarily saying the behaviours of the letter writer's husband are all bad. The only one that I have a real issue about is drinking to excess while out with friends. How is this guy getting home without driving drunk or being a passenger with a friend who is equally intoxicated? Does he have a friend who becomes the designated driver? We do not know, so I hesitant to give him a pass on this one.

The rest, however, I cannot tell if the husband is a party animal who is ignoring his family or if the letter writer is a control freak who insists that her man be by her side every minute of the day.

Mike H.:

You keep saying that letter #3 doesn't say how much time he spends on football, golf, etc. Well, as I already pointed out, the letters are edited and maybe hacked beyond recognition and how do we know she DIDN'T say those things in the original? She very well could have, but we may never know. This is one time I really wish the LW would come down here and tell us all about it. I still don't think she's trying to "change" him, just be involved.

AWC:

The wife was a party animal at first too, but when things changed, she did too. How many people REALLY think ahead like you suggest? It's not easy to do that.

Someone commented on L1 and the timeline: All is says is that he was married 40 years, there is no mention of how long between that and the 4 years ago when he met Lynn. Might have been a space of months or years for all we know.

Checking in late on this one....

LW1 - please don't marry her till you get this straightened out. When you're married it may be unsolvable. At this stage, you still have a chance to extricate yourself.

LW2 - some folks are addicted to TV and don't even realize it's on. Deal accordingly.

LW3 - Penny, I like your humor, and your math is impressive, but your calculations are a little fuzzy, and are based largely on speculation. According to the LW, he's out drinking one night a week. That means he's home the other six. Instead of complaining about the fact that he likes golf and watching sports, I agree with Nanchan that the LW might consider joining him in these activities. Nanchan's example of the benefits of doing so is salient. If the LW wants to cut her husband loose for the reason she gave, more power to her; I think a lot of women would be glad to have him.

Re: AWC

Great Post, couldn't agree with you more.

@Jar8818:

Agreed, predicting the future is impossible, but some things might give an indication. Past behaviour can give good clues about future behaviour. That is all I am saying. If someone were to write the following:

“My 29 year old husband of six years smokes pot on a daily basis. He has done this since he was 14. I asked to stop when we were dating, then when we were engaged, then on our honeymoon and after that, almost every day of the first year of our marriage. When I got pregnant with our first child I asked him again and yet another time when I was pregnant with our second child. Now I am pregnant with our third child. Do you think he will stop smoking pot if I ask him again?”

My response would be “Based on his past responses to your requests, expect more of the same.”

Even if the wife wrote that she used to smoke pot with him when they were younger and since stopped when she matured, I would still give the same response. I would also state that she would have to decide if she wanted to accept his smoking pot every day or live without him as her husband.

@Jar8818, sure, those things MAY have been edited out of the letter; but by the same token, there could have been things edited out that make the LW look worse, too. We don't *know* if anything was edited at all, or if the edits would have strengthened the LW's case or weakened it.

@Penny, no need to get Ike on the board, I'll freely admit I'm no saint! I have a pretty strong personality and plenty of quirks. That's why Ike and I say to each other "I love you... warts and all!"

Sometimes our differences do cause friction. Other times we recognize that our differences actually make us stronger, that some of his weaknesses are filled in by my strengths, and vice-versa. And we've had discussions about how we discuss things.

But that's kind of my point. Nobody is all saint or all sinner, and relationships require communication, compromise, awareness, and mutuality.

I've been upset by things that Ike did where it was reasonable I would get upset. I've also gotten upset where it wasn't particularly reasonable I would get upset. I'm just as human and fallible as anyone else.

The actual complaints in the letter are pretty mild. He might be setting a bad example for their son and she thinks the amount of time he spends on these activities -- which is not actually specified -- is too much.

If any of the other bad scenarios posited by the commenters who are against this husband were actually the case, you would think that these stronger arguments would have been included in the letter, or in the edit of the letter. The fact that they aren't can make one reasonably conclude that they aren't actually there at all.

IF the husband is engaging in these activities far beyond what any neutral third party would agree is excessive and IF the LW has tried to offer a reasonable compromise that allows him to continue these activities but in a more reasonable time frame and IF these activities are taking unreasonable amounts of time away from his responsibilities and impairing his relationship with his son and IF he doesn't do a reasonable amount of the upkeep of the house, then, yes, I would agree that the LW has a serious problems.

But those are a LOT of "ifs" that aren't clearly spelled out one way or the other in the actual letter that we can read. Sure, we can read into what the LW says and fill in blanks to bolster her case; but we have no knowledge that what is being "filled in" is anywhere close to accurate.

That's why I qualified my responses. It's certainly just as possible that LW has always had unreasonable expectations in regards to what she expects her husband to do, and that anything short of what SHE wants isn't enough for her, and the counselor suggested a compromise she didn't want to make, and that's why she's frustrated.

I'm just unwilling to automatically assume the husband in this scenario is really as wrong as some others are extrapolating.

If LW3's husband truly is getting plastered a couple of nights a week and literally spending all Saturday and Sunday either glued to the TV or playing golf, then she has a point. Reading between the lines, it just doesn't sound that way, if only by what she DOESN'T say. She doesn't say he's a slob or neglects work or refuses to help around the house, and it's hard to believe that if that was the case, LW3 wouldn't bring it up. She sounds more like a control freak who resents her husband having any fun on his own.

I agree with some of the other writers that if she really is upset that he's going off on his own, they come up with activities that they can do as a family with their son. Get out together and play golf or tennis or some other sport. Rather than trying to make sure the husband doesn't enjoy himself, how about joining in the fun?

Dave

Re: AWC

I agree with you, but had to chuckle based on a family example.

I never remember my father smoking cigarettes. Ever. Cigarettes were a non-issue in our house and I remember being small and going to other people's homes and smelling the smell of smoke and almost choking on it. But at my father's funeral, I found out that he had smoked right up until almost the time that my parents had moved to my birth state (several years before I was born). My older sisters remember being in cars with him and my mother nagging him to stop smoking. Dad refused to stop: he was a product of the culture at the time and thought smoking was cool, refined, whatever. Again, all this happened before I was even born.

What changed Dad? His father died, uncharacteristially for our family where almost everybody lives into their 90s. Grandpa died very young (60). Dad flipped out and almost immediately stopped smoking. Of course, he did take up toothpicks and I have the scars on my feet to prove it, but my point is: he promised to stop with babies 1,2,3,4... etc.... what made him stop was the threat of his own mortality.

So it can happen and it can happen late... we didn't lose Dad to lung cancer, we lost him to heart disease, but he no doubt prolonged his life a bit by switching to those lethal toothpicks. (plus he did always have great teeth!)

Re: AWC

I agree with you, but had to chuckle based on a family example.

I never remember my father smoking cigarettes. Ever. Cigarettes were a non-issue in our house and I remember being small and going to other people's homes and smelling the smell of smoke and almost choking on it. But at my father's funeral, I found out that he had smoked right up until almost the time that my parents had moved to my birth state (several years before I was born). My older sisters remember being in cars with him and my mother nagging him to stop smoking. Dad refused to stop: he was a product of the culture at the time and thought smoking was cool, refined, whatever. Again, all this happened before I was even born.

What changed Dad? His father died, uncharacteristially for our family where almost everybody lives into their 90s. Grandpa died very young (60). Dad flipped out and almost immediately stopped smoking. Of course, he did take up toothpicks and I have the scars on my feet to prove it, but my point is: he promised to stop with babies 1,2,3,4... etc.... what made him stop was the threat of his own mortality.

So it can happen and it can happen late... we didn't lose Dad to lung cancer, we lost him to heart disease, but he no doubt prolonged his life a bit by switching to those lethal toothpicks. (plus he did always have great teeth!)

Re: AWC

I agree with you, but had to chuckle based on a family example.

I never remember my father smoking cigarettes. Ever. Cigarettes were a non-issue in our house and I remember being small and going to other people's homes and smelling the smell of smoke and almost choking on it. But at my father's funeral, I found out that he had smoked right up until almost the time that my parents had moved to my birth state (several years before I was born). My older sisters remember being in cars with him and my mother nagging him to stop smoking. Dad refused to stop: he was a product of the culture at the time and thought smoking was cool, refined, whatever. Again, all this happened before I was even born.

What changed Dad? His father died, uncharacteristially for our family where almost everybody lives into their 90s. Grandpa died very young (60). Dad flipped out and almost immediately stopped smoking. Of course, he did take up toothpicks and I have the scars on my feet to prove it, but my point is: he promised to stop with babies 1,2,3,4... etc.... what made him stop was the threat of his own mortality.

So it can happen and it can happen late... we didn't lose Dad to lung cancer, we lost him to heart disease, but he no doubt prolonged his life a bit by switching to those lethal toothpicks. (plus he did always have great teeth!)

LW1: You want to marry this woman but you don't want to have an honest conversation with her about her son? Makes sense.

LW2: I don't get people like you. What's next? You don't press charges against your mugger because you don't want to hurt his feelings?

LW3: I'm amazed that your husband didn't change as soon as you were married because everyone knows that marriage is magic that causes people to change into something we want.

Re: AWC

This is not the same. You (and the others you mention) are putting two things in the same that don't belong together.

Anyone marrying a partner who is a pathological liar, a serial cheat, a narcissist or a (fill in serious character flaw), can expect him/her to remain a pathological liar, a serial cheat and a narcissist, etc.

But someone marrying young to someone young as well, both of them being party animals... This is not a character flaw, it's par-for-the-course young kids' behaviour. Most people don't remain party animals all their lives. They grow up, they mature, their interests may change. A man may continue to love football and golf all his life, but his priorities are expected to shift once he becomes a family man.

That's all I'm saying.

If you go back to my original post, I also said that it's up to her to decide whether she is better off with him or without him. That's also what you are saying, I believe.

LW3--"On weekends, he is either playing golf or watching sports. We have been to marriage counseling numerous times, and nothing has changed." Honestly, I don't know what you expect. Do you want your husband to sit idly by you on the sofa and hold your hand while you watch 'Lifetime'? Do you expect him to don a sweater and play Mr. Rogers to your kids? Do you want him to stay at home underfoot all hours and follow you around like a puppy dog? Be careful what you wish for! What is it that you deem normal? What behavior would make you get off his back? It seem to me that hanging out with his friends, enjoying hobbies and maybe reliving some stress by imbibing once pr twice a week is acceptable. Before you knock it, maybe you should try it! I'm not sure what fairy tales you've been reading by I don't think you have a realistic expectation of what married life is all about in reality. Marriage is not about one person giving up who he or she is to accommodate his or her partner. Marriage is a coming together of two people who maintain lives and identities of their own. If you can't accept who your husband is then perhaps you should have thought twice before you married him. Expecting him to change after the fact is not only unfair but unrealistic.

I think an awful lot of people here are hearing hoofbeats and looking for zebras. And while I am often suspicious that letter writers are bending over backwards to make themselves look angelic, I'm not at all convinced that this LW is a shrew who wants her husband to never spend time away from the family.

There's a reason that Harry Chapin's "Cat's in the Cradle" was a huge hit -- because the dynamic that "Daddy works hard and he's entitled to ....] was so widespread. [Never mind how hard MOM worked.] And whether it's because women aren't supposed to drink alcohol during pregnancy, or because they're the ones the kids tend to call in the night when there's been a nightmare, a bedwetting, a fever or a vomiting incident, or because daddies tend to be paid more than mommies -- the mommies tend not to feel entitled to spend as many non-work hours away from their kids.

And that's why I'm relatively sure that LW is NOT a harpy who won't be satisfied until hubby is home with her every night, holding her yarn as she knits, or that she thinks one beer a week is "excessive drinking" that's setting "a bad example" for their son. Instead, I'd be willing to bet serious money that the time on the links and the sports on TV and the drinking (and the mornings after nights of excessive drinking) mean that Dad isn't spending ANY weekends taking the family camping, hiking in a local state park, fishing, to museums, to festivals or county fairs, on bike rides, to parades or to weekend soccer tourneys. That she's the one trying to do that... and that she's put in a fair share of "Shhh, Daddy's sleeping in because he doesn't feel well this morning -- if you can be real quiet, I'll make you blueberry pancakes" or "Shhh -- hon, ywhy don't you and your friend go out and shoot some baskets? Daddy's trying to watch TV".

Re: Chris

"What behavior would make you get off his back? "
Well, I cannot know for sure what SHE would find reasonable... But if it were ME, *I* would expect him to come home NOT plastered when he goes out with the boys, and I would expect half the weekend, or one weekend out of two to be consecrated to family actitivies. And forget about "Lifetime"... this is some steamy, romancy soap, right? Bleh.

Indeed, she SHOULD "try it herself"... I wonder how he would like that.

P.S.: I'll make a deal with you: I'll watch football with you if you'll watch skating with me. With enthusiam, please. I will NOT go golfing. I love bagpipes and highland dancing, but my Scottish side does NOT include golf. No can do, can't hack it, been there, done that, absolutely hate it. Re-bleh.

I hate to say this but a lot of women IRL remind me of LW3. They party with the boys in college and get the guy who's the life of the party, then they marry and have kids and suddenly having more than 3 beers or going out with the guys more than once a month is a big huge deal, even before they have kids. A lot of women have some very messed up ideas about what being a grownup means. This guy sounds great to me too.
And I'm just gonna say it: What precisely is wrong with drinking "excessively" once a week? Excessively meaning enough to render one unable to drive let's say. Which where I am is about oh, 3 beers depending on body weight. I also note many women IRL I know think ANYTHING that results in being unable to drive is something to never, ever, ever do again once out of university. Blah. Then they need to go pick up some nice mormon or baptist boy or something.
The letter, as presented, sounds like she has a giant stick up her backside and she's a nagging harpy who could use a good stiff drink herself.

Re: hedgehog #08
That's what I have been trying to express with all my posts and you did it. Thank you
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OUR CAUCUS voted Santorum for President. Now to watch and see what the rest of MN comes up with. I had never been to a caucus before, my beliefs have no policital party affiliated. But they let me vote anyway. Interesting how things work.
Now if this had been a primary.....But MN does not do those.

Re: wkh

Again, unless she comes down BTL, we won't know what her criteria are... But if it were ME... three beers is a pretty tame evening by my standards. Excessive drinking in my book would be any quantity that renders him visibly impaired to the point where the guy has difficulty walking or exhibits atypical behaviour. Keep in mind quantities vary on the individual and that I know some people who never reach that stage now matter how much they imbibe. As far as *I'm* concerned, if the guy can talk coherently, is still rational in his thinking, doesn't try to do crazy stuff he won't remember the next day, can walk a straight line and is not hungover for half the next day, I don't care how much he drank. He'll be fine by me. But again - that's me. I don't know what she would find reasonable.

And what's wrong with drinking excessively once a week ("at least") is that alcohol removes inhibitions and much of that front-lobe reflection about consequences. Heavy drinking is usually done in a bar, which means that temptation is ever-present, likely encouraged by the presence of the boys... machismo and all that jazz. And if the guy has been married 19 years, then he's getting pretty close to that mid-life crisis window. Not a good idea to tempt the Devil. LIke I told Chris, if it were me in her shoes, I would have no problem with him going out with the boys once a week as long as he doesn't come home smashed.

wkh -- what's wrong with excessive drinking weekly? Well, I like to have a good time every now & again myself, but I think it would be pretty selfish if I were, on a weekly--or even a monthly -- basis:

1. Requiring my partner to come get me late at night (regardless of what he may have been doing) because no one in the group has been the designated driver.

2. Requiring my partner to drive me back across town to get my car the next morning.

3. Blowing off previously made plans for that night with my partner because "we're all having such a good time -- just one more beer and I'll go. The [dinner reservation, movie, mother-in-law's birthday party, neighborhood BBQ] will still be there after just one more beer. Hey, you're kidding! JOE bought a round? Well, OK, after TWO more beers then."

4. Blowing off plans for the next morning because "ugh, I can't [go for a run, go antiquing, shop for a new mattress] when I feel so crummy."