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In Love With Friend's Husband
Dear Annie: Six months ago, I was fired for stealing from my job. I was too embarrassed to tell anyone, so I lied — to my parents, my friends, everybody. I told them I quit so I could go back to school.
Then I lost my house because I didn't have the money to pay the mortgage. My parents told me that I'm almost 40 and need to stand on my own two feet. They wouldn't let me move in with them. My best friend felt sorry for me and said I could camp out in her guest room until I got back on my feet.
In that time, I've fallen in love with her husband. I couldn't help it. "Alex" is amazing — smart, charming, kind, athletic, attractive, the total package. But it makes me uncomfortable to see him being so affectionate with his wife, always holding her hand and stroking her hair. I can't figure out why their marriage has lasted 10 years. He's outgoing, and she's shy. She's also rather plain. Alex doesn't seem to realize that he could have somebody so much better looking and smarter. He could have me.
I know his wife took me in when nobody else would, but you can't help who God tells you to love. My mother says I need therapy. I don't agree. I simply want to know how to deal with my feelings so I can be around my friend without wanting to smack that sweet smile right off her face. Any advice? — Crazy in Love
Dear Crazy: You steal from your job, lie to your family and then try to seduce your best friend's husband. Alex is smart enough to know a good woman when he marries one. The longer you stay in that house the harder it will be for you. Get any job, maybe two of them, so you can afford another place to live, even if it means multiple roommates. Then take your mother's advice and get some counseling to understand why you keep trying to take things that don't belong to you.
Dear Annie: Next fall, my boyfriend and I will be abroad at the same time. "Dex" will have graduated college. I will be a junior, studying in Europe for six months. He will be in Japan for twice that time.
My father recently told me about having a failed long-distance relationship while he was in the armed forces, saying, "You know, when you go abroad, that will probably be the end for the two of you. Just enjoy it while you can."
Dex and I are already in a long-distance relationship (about five hours from each other). He knows it will be difficult but says he's willing to wait for me, and we will discuss living together when he returns. What should I do? I know I'll enjoy Europe to the fullest, but I'm afraid I'll be so lonely. — Student Abroad
Dear Student: Your father's failed relationship has nothing to do with yours. Yes, sometimes distance can create insurmountable barriers. If you are afraid you cannot be without a man in your life for a year, then you aren't ready to commit to Dex, and we suggest you go your separate ways now. That's an OK decision to make, and you shouldn't feel guilty. But if you are determined to stay with Dex, friends (not boyfriends) can alleviate your loneliness.
Dear Annie: I read the letter from "Need a Bigger Piece of the Pie," the single mother who was barely able to pay her bills. I was disappointed that you did not suggest she seek help from a local church.
All the churches in my area have food banks and money for heat or electric bills. There are no forms to fill out, no questions to answer, just the Lord's army waiting with open arms. — Northern Michigan
Dear Michigan: You are absolutely right. Religious institutions of all denominations often provide such help, and we hope "Need" will check out those in her community.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM
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86 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1: Wow, what a piece of work you are. Let's go over the details of your letter. You stole from your job, got fired, lied to everybody, and are now HOMELESS. Yes, crashing at a friend's place is still "homeless." Your friend has been good enough to take you in, yet you resent her to the point of wanting to slap her, and feel that her husband "could do better?" And even more prepostrously, you think homeless, unemployed, resentful YOU would be a better match for him than a plain, shy, but obviously very kind woman who he clearly loves? You make a stab at why SHE isn't worthy, but what makes YOU worthy?
I'll also put it out there and say that "God" is not telling you to love this man. In fact, I'm pretty sure "covet thy neighbour's wife (spouse)" and "commit adultery" are expressly FORBIDDEN in the Bible. If you must put a religious tone to it, perhaps God is challenging you, but He certainly isn't telling you to take up with the husband of a woman who's doing you a good turn. On a psychological level, you're probably attracted to the sense of security he offers; to the kind and affectionate way he treats his wife (wanting that for yourself), plain old proximity, and the whole "forbidden fruit" business.
Move your ass out of there, and do your friend a favour and never speak to her again. And yes, therapy please. You seem eyeballs deep in denial or self-delusion or narcissism or something. You ain't that great a catch right now, lady.
LW2: I'm sorry to say that long distance relationships like the one you will embark on often don't work out. There are always exceptions of course, but the rule is that an absence of a year will not make the heart grow fonder. Since you are already in a LDR with him, though, you two may pull it off. Between my time in university and my time abroad, I saw many idealistic couples trying to make it work long distance. None of them ever did. It's not just the simple frustration. It's the resentment of having to stay home/come home early to call him (sounds like you're at least in the same time zone right now). It's the anger when one of you is busy and can't talk. It's the creeping mistrust when you have no idea what they're up to when they're not talking to you. It's the amplified attractiveness of the opposite sex when you're starved for attention- especially if you and beau had a fight, especially if you're drinking or otherwise less inhibited. Finally, spending time abroad tends to change people's personalities, so that even if you stay together, by the time you reunite you may no longer suit one another as well.
LW3: Yes, I remember that letter. Church help is certainly an option for her. I was one of the harder-line commenters who felt she should seriously consider sending her children to their father or another relative while she gets training to get back on her feet. It would be a wrenching thing to do, of course, but in her letter she was saying she went days without eating. That's a point where drastic things must be done, or her life will never improve.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Jers
Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:38 PM
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Re LW1- Sorry lady but you're a world class Bitch. This is supposed to be your best friend and you talk about her like she's a peice of crap. I hope she realizes what kind of person you are and kicks your backside to the curb where you belong. People like you disgust me.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Yoshi Mama
Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:40 PM
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Re Crazy in Love:
I actually feel sorry for you. I too, was fired from a job with cause, and did not inform my family (they found out through other means). However, I kept a roof over my head by moving out of my apartment and into a room, saving money until I found employment again. Your foreclosure suggests a lack of foresight or financial planning.
You also blame your desires on third-party agency, absolving you of any responsibility or self-control. Envy destroys your ability to be happy for others' happiness. You determine marital happiness based solely on looks. And you feel driven to take action that would leave you homeless or in jail.
I do not defend your actions. Plenty of other posters will condemn you, and there is no point in repetition. I simply hope any therapy you get can help you deal with the gaps in your mental processes that render you unable to control your impulses, even for the sake of survival. Even if you care nothing for anyone else, at least try to learn enough coping skills to avoid self-destruction.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Snarf
Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:54 PM
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LW2: If I could talk to you like I talk to my niece, here's the advice I would give you based on life experience.
1. You are young. That doesn't mean you are not in love, it doesn't mean you aren't ready for a relationship. Many people your age are already married and some have children. But you, yourself, are young. You are in college and this is a time that you should cherish and take advantage of.
2. You have a unique opportunity to live abroad, as does Dex (who comes up with these made up names anyways? I think the Annies were playing Scrabble this week) but let's take him first. It sounds like he is going to Japan to teach in the JET program (Japanese English Teaching). A lot of those kids are sent to remote places in Japan where they (even in this day and age) are the only foreigners in town. My dear LW (if you are reading), teachers in the JET program are usually high profile and the Japanese women tend to throw themselves at them. I speak from observation: I was a teacher in Japan for many many years. Dex is young, will be far from home for a year, and there is a strong chance he'll be tempted pretty strongly.
3. Now, let's talk about you. You are young and will be in Europe. Do you really want to spend six months mooning over Dex while you are in Europe? I don't think so, and I don't think you WILL. I think you'll get there and fall into a pattern and realize, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and I need to take advantage of it.
SO.... my advice is going to be different than your father's. My advice is to talk to Dex and agree to keep in contact while you are both overseas, but also agree not to be exclusive. Set him free. Tell him that while you both are away, you can date, go out and party with new friends, No strings attached and no explanations necessary upon return. If, when he returns from Japan, he still wants to live with you and you want to live with him, then good! Your father is wrong that all long distance relationships break up, sometimes the distance actually makes them stronger. But only if both parties are free to experience life without a jealous partner, or one who guilt trips constantly.
Comment: #4
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:06 PM
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LW1-
Lemme get this straight.
1. You get fired for stealing.
2. You're "embarassed", so you lie to everybody.
3. You lose your house because, being unemployed, you couldn't pay the mortgage.
4. Your mother (smart girl) won't have you back in, so you manage to con your best friend, a decent woman, to feel sorry for you enough to take you in.
5. You thank her by "falling in love" with her husband.
6. You just "can't understand" why he's so goo-goo-ga-ga over the "homely imbecile", when he could do so much better - you!
You won't understand this, because you have no morals, no principles, no conscience and no heart. You FUCKING BITCH. The only thing "people" like you deserve is the death penalty, or an alley meeting with a serial killer. There is no other cure for your ailment, as you don't qualify as human.
Major, major YRRRRRCH. And puke. And yecch. Frankly, I'm running out of... whatever.
P.S.: Is this for real, or is it he same Yale undergraduate who (probably) wrote to Dear Margo yesterday? Ick.
@Jers
God didn't tell her anything. If anyone did, it was Satan.
LW2
Some long-distance relationships work out fine, some don't. You don't know which one yours will be. I suggest you don't take any drastic decisions unless fate forces you - as in, inadvertently meeting and falling in love with someone else. Things are generally best left to proceed naturally. In the meantime, love your boyfriend, love life and love what you do. Che sera sera.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:29 PM
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Re: nanchan,
That is so cool you taught over in Japan. I've always wanted to visit this country. I always assumed you chose the name nanchan in reference to the Nanchan temple in China, but I guess it has something to do with Japan and -chan is a suffix to a nickname maybe?
LW2- Your father was trying to give you a "heads up" so you won't be completely devastated and blind-sided when the relationship fails. It was meant out of kindness, but probably was not so since now you will only worry yourself sick over this. Don't worry about it though, which is easier said than done. Worrying will not make the relationship succeed, nor will it change any outcome. Go have fun in Europe and if you want to try to work out the relationship, then keep it long distance while in Europe. Talk on the phone, email, etc, just keep the communication open. Communication is so important. I also agree with nanchan you should make it an "open" relationship temporarily while you are both oversees, and once you both return if you want to both continue being together, then recommit it to a "closed" relationship. I think you should do this to avoid the constant stress and jealousy so often involved in long distance relationships which can be so disasterous to them.
On a side note, I once met an elderly man who was in a long distance relationship with his wife before they married, and the long distance lasted for three years. They communicated mainly through letters. Their marriage lasted more than fifty years and counting. It can work, if both sides want it to work.
LW1- Don't really know what to say to this... Kind of baffled really. I would like to believe Crazy has some type of personality disorder... borderline or narcissistic or something, but most likely crazy is just a back-stabbing jerk. Perhaps she just wanted everyone to know she is a massive harlot who does not understand the most basic part of the Bible: the Ten Commandments. It sounds like crazy just wants to snag a man to take care of her, so go ahead and show your true colors so your friend and Alex can kick you to the curb. I once had a "friend" help a man two-time me. When the man and "friend" were caught, the "friend" lost both her friendship with me and the man... Not because the man chose me, but because I dumped the man telling him 'she can have you,' and guess what? He didn't want her after all.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Maria
Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:47 PM
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“Alex doesn't seem to realize that he could have somebody so much better looking and smarter. He could have me.”
Wow. Into yourself just a little bit, aren't you? Let's got over a few things and see if they can deflate that massively oversized ego of yours, because you definitely need a lesson in humility:
1) You are a thief. You stole from your employer, got caught and lost your job. Now you want to steal your best friend's husband, despite the fact that without her generosity you would be living in a homeless shelter, in your car, or in a box under a freeway overpass.
2) You are a liar. You did not tell anyone the real reason for losing your job to maintain your reputation. You act like a friend to the woman who is helping you out, but want to stab her in the back.
3) You envy people who have something that you do not, such as your best friend who has a wonderful husband. Is this the reason you tried stealing from your employer? Were you trying to pay for something that you could not afford on only your salary, such as a larger house or fancier car? Is this the reason you want your friend's relationship with her husband? It certainly is the reason that you want to smack her sweet smile right off her face.
4) You think that you are better than your friend. The reality is you a failure of a human being who does not appreciate how despicable she is.
Now that we have settled this, let's answer your question. How can you deal with your feelings and still be around you friend? Answer: you cannot while you live in her house. Distance from your friend, her house, and her husband are required if you want to continue your friendship. You will need to move out and lice somewhere else, even if it means living in a homeless shelter, in your car, or in a box under a freeway overpass. Perhaps doing this will help you with a much needed attitude adjustment.
Comment: #7
Posted by: AWC
Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:56 PM
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LW1 - I think the Annies (and we) got trolled by LW1. I'm sure there are crazy people like that out there, but from the way the letter is written (and that it was written at all) - I'm willing to bet my lunch this one is a fake.
LW2 - Some long distance relationships work out, but not all of them. Not by a long shot. Honestly, play it by ear. Or take a break while you are abroad and see how you both feel when you come back.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Zoe
Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:09 PM
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Snarf: thank you for a great post and for sharing your story as well.
LW1: None of us is perfect, but most of us, especially by age 40, have learned that we have to take responsibility for our actions. OK, you blew it on the job. You did something pretty bad. You have to live with that. Look at it this way. When you eat too much food and don't move, you gain weight. It's cause and effect. Stealing from your employer and getting fired (you're lucky you're not in jail) is cause and effect.
I'm not going to address you losing your home: from what I've seen, foreclosure and eviction usually takes longer than six months (one of my friend's lost his home but it took about 10 months from the time he stopped paying the mortgage: I'd be curious to see what other posters have to say about this). I am going to address your ATTITUDE.
You, my friend, need to pull yourself up and stop focusing on your friend's husband and start focuing on what you can do to rebuild your life. You told your family that you quit your job to go back to school, why not keep that part of your story true? Look into job retraining. While you're at it, you need to figure out how you will find another job after being fired for something like stealing. Go to your local unemployment office: in my state, they provide help for ANY job seeker and you could benefit from talking to someone about how to find a job knowing that your last employer will not give you a reference.
I believe that you are lusting after your friend's husband out of boredom, out of lack of self esteem, out of jealousy that your friend has a stable situation and you don't....not because he's some fantastic guy. You, my friend, are idealizing this guy because he's the nearest thing possible for you to focus on. You need to stop that. In the old days, we would have told you you need to get a new hobby. Your new hobby should be taking care of the following (and in this order).
!. Getting out of your friend's house. She's been generous to you and you've probably already overstayed your welcome. Trust me, both of them know about you craving him, that's why he's always physical with his wife. He's trying to send YOU a message and is being very kind about it. If I was you, I'd leave in the next week.
2. Go back to your parents and 'fess up and ask them to help you. Before you do this, go with a PLAN. Tell them you are going to seek counseling for both your apparent mental illness (and yes, it seems you may have one) and also for your career. Give them a timeline (six months or a year?) that you request to live with them while you put your life together. Make sure you have already set up the counselors and programs and can provide that information to them. If they see that, my money is on the fact that they will take you in.
3. Put the plan you presented to your parents in action and leave your friend ALONE. Stop all contact with her for at least the time it takes to get your life back together. You should never be alone with her husband. She was a good friend to you when you needed her and God bless her for that. And if you don't think she's exciting to her husband? Well, plenty of people wonder what any spouse sees in any other spouse. But, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!! Leave them alone, when you get a job, send them a lovely fruit basket thanking them for helping you when you were out of work and leave it at that.
Comment: #9
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:16 PM
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I mean, think about it: the fact that she stole from her company and that's why she got fired isn't even relevant to the advice she is asking for. Why would she even include that? She could easily have said "I lost my job and am currently staying with my my friends." And why elaborate on what the parents said ("I'm almost 40...")? She could have said "My parents refused to help me."
Yeah... this letter was written to inspire anger and disgust. Don't fall for it!
Comment: #10
Posted by: Zoe
Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:20 PM
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Re: nanchan
It depends on the state, but the quickest you can expect a foreclosure to be is 4-6 months (starting from the last mortgage payment). Generally it takes at least 9 months, sometimes several years if they file for bankruptcy.
So a 6 month timeline is unlikely but not impossible - and the last mortgage payment could have been made months before the LW was fired. But my money is still on this being a fake letter so I guess it's a moot point!
Comment: #11
Posted by: Zoe
Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:26 PM
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Re: Maria
It was an interesting experience to be sure! My nom de plume here is based on the temple in China, I visited there years ago. If you get the chance to go to Asia go!
Comment: #12
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:00 AM
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Yep: Zoe, I'm with you (and thanks for the mortgage info).... but I have to say that most of the letters here sometimes hit me in the same way (as fakes). it only really irritates me when an advice columnist tries to pass themselves off as teens or kids with serious problems.... this one actually could be real, so I decided to just roll with it and answer it as if it were. And believe me, I know people like this (wait, make that past tense: I tend to delete these type of people from my life!) Happy sunday!
Comment: #13
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:17 AM
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I agree with Zoe that LW1 is a fake. I doubt that anyone that self-involved and disgusting would bother to write to an advice columnist, considering the type of response she would know she would get. Let's don't waste our time on that one. I think we're all in agreement on what the answers should be IF in fact it's real!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Kitty
Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:01 AM
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Like the letter in Margo, there's a very good chance that LW1 is a fabrication. In the off-chance that it's not, I think the LW1 needs that counseling she eschews, and through counseling needs to have a sense of responsibility -- needing to take responsibility for one's actions and not keep blaming everyone and everything else. You don't seem to have any sense that your stealing or lying was wrong, and somehow you are blaming "God" for "making" you fall in love with someone completely inappropriate? Sorry, not buying it.
If this is real, you need to wake up fast, because you are self-destructing, sabotaging your self in every way you can think of, and there's obviously some greater underlying issue underneath all this behavior. You need to step back and ask yourself why are you trying to destroy your own life??
LW2: Long-distance relationships *can* work, especially nowadays when things like Skype and FaceTime can make it easier for people to *see* each other while they talk. But don't kid yourself -- it won't be easy, and a lot of communication in advance, to discuss expectations, will help.
LW3: There are all sorts of religious and secular organizations that can help, the original LW shouldn't give up.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:35 AM
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LW #2: My college boyfriend and I embarked on a LDR when we both went overseas during our junior year. We were very much in love, but had different expectations of our relationship while we were apart. We made it through the year but ultimately split during our senior year. The split was painful, but the year apart enabled us to grow and better understand ourselves as individuals.
My advice: take each day as it comes. College is the time for learning more about yourself. Your relationship might make it, but it might not. See what happens, and trust that things will work out for the best - no matter what that is. If you're intent on making it work, make sure you're in agreement on your expectations and maintain open communication on them. How often will you chat? How often will you see each other?
There's a more than 8-hr time difference between Western Europe and Japan, and an even larger time difference between Japan and the U.S. Having lived in Western Europe and in Japan, I know that this time difference can be a challenge. While you're getting ready for bed, he might be on his way out for an evening with friends. Will you resent it if you're stuck spending an evening in waiting for his call instead of going out with friends? Will he resent it if he calls you, and you're out with friends instead of at home waiting for him? Be honest with yourself about what you want individually and as a couple.
I work with university students going overseas, and it's a time of rapid growth and change. Some of our students' LDR make it through just fine, but not all do. If you're committed to making it work, you need to have trust, open communication and space to let the relationship develop as it may.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Marriedgal
Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:05 AM
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i was going to comment that i thought/hoped the first letter was fake, but lise beat me to it. [two points to lise for being first] and then several others did, too. don't people have anything better to do than write phony letters?
Comment: #17
Posted by: alien07110
Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:47 AM
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Sweetie, I see people like you all the time. They're called grifters. They con, cheat, and weasel things from people again and again and never realise that their luck has long since run out. Something tells me that your parents may have already wised up to you. Obviously, you think they believe your story about you quittng to go back to school. Well guess what; they obviously don't! In fact, I bet they wouldn't let you move in with them because they're afraid you'll steal their identity and get them in trouble.
Do the right thing and move out of your friends home before both of them kick you out.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Nasty
Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:14 AM
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@ Lise - Post #5
Gee whiz Lise, I hope after all that lashing out at LW 1, that you saved some energy to celebrate today. I'll post later to LW 1. I'm in the mood today to add my 2 cents to someone like that.
H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y !!!!! Today and many more to come !! Welcome to the 6 0 club !!
Herzliche Gluckwunsch fuer ein schones Geburststag !!
I was going to do best wishes in French, too, but my son isn't here at the moment. Hope you have a great day !!
Comment: #19
Posted by: Gwen
Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:15 AM
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LW1--Oh honey, get yourself to a shrink yesterday!! You're obviously not thinking straight and the longer you go on, the more more carnage you wreak on your innocent friends and family. Let's sum things up. You were fired from your job for stealing. Then, to avoid embarrassment you lie and tell everyone you are going back to school. I guess it didn't occur to you that you need a job in order to pay a mortgage so then you lose your house too. When your dutiful friend (who must be a saint for taking in a ticking time bomb) takes you in, you start crushing on her husband and then have the gumption to be pissed at HER for showing affection towards HER OWN HUSBAND! You've got nerve, I'll give you that. The sad fact is, you're not right in the head and you need to realize it now and get help. If you have any shred of integrity left, you'll move out of your friend's home and get yourself a full psych evaluation before you self-destruct.
LW2--Way to go Dad for being so heartless. Just for the record, you could point out to your father that in his day the Internet, texting, FaceBook, Twitter, E-Mail, Skype and personal Smart Phones on which to use any of the above didn't exist! We live in a global community nowadays in which anyone can be instantly in touch with anyone else regardless of their physical location on the planet. As you point out, you're already in a long-distance relationship and it's working just fine. Whether or not your relationship survives your being abroad will have little to do with the fact that distance is involved. Tell your father you'll take his advice under advisement, but your relationship with your boyfriend is really none of his business.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:00 AM
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Wow Annies way to blow it on #2. Personally I think moving away for a year by choice is more of a sign of not being ready to commit than not being able to be without someone for a year. If my partner did that there would either be an open relationship or no relationship.
I also agree with nanchan this relationship should be open. People who say an LD relationship is easy via skype must be those ones who lose their sex drive after menopause. I can't count how many young women I met while in Japan or back home with boyfriends IN Japan who were being all faithful to him and going years without basic physical affection (let alone sex) or even simple dating, certain their boyfriend was doing the same either back home or abroad (in fact I am sure many women will reply to this their boyfriend went to Japan for a year and never once had sex while there. He lied honey. He lied. Trust me, he lied). They spent six months, a year, sometimes three like some war bride waiting chastly for him while he was out wining dining and....;-)
It doesn't make the guys jerks or cheats, it makes them normal healthy young men with sex drives who want to experience the world and not listening to sobbing hysterical drama from the home based girlfriend. BTW guys just a clue? A gf who is willing to go that long w/o sex is not going to be into it once you marry her....
Comment: #21
Posted by: wkh
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:21 AM
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For the skeptics: LW1's letter could be entirely true. I know someone exactly like her (she is a co worker who latched onto me), always envious and salivating at the good fortune of others. She was a single mother, and when we would go to the zoo, would walk close to my husband so people would think they were together (my husband laughs about that to this day!) I finally shook her loose when she kept calling my husband at work and he basically told her to knock it off (my husband and I are talking as I'm writing this, and he said, "that woman would not take no for an answer. You have to admire that level of stupidity!"). Her own mother told me that she was a "user" and had no sympathy for her. She eventually got arrested for Aggravated Stalking, when she wouldn't leave someone else's husband alone. What an absolute train wreck. What kills me is that she is a professional with a master's degree, and could support herself just fine, and was beautiful. She just couldn't keep a relationship because she was so crazy, and always thought that she could be the answer the husbands were looking for, even when the husbands weren't looking!
The husband that LW1 is pertaining to has obviously become keenly aware of this woman's crush, and is showing affection to his wife to send her a clear message that he's perfectly happy. This woman is not a friend, and deserves everything that she has.
Comment: #22
Posted by: happymom
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:22 AM
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I can't figure out why their marriage has lasted 10 years. He's outgoing, and she's shy. She's also rather plain. Alex doesn't seem to realize that he could have somebody so much better looking and smarter. He could have me.
******
This the part of Letter 1 that had me LOL. and relatively sure the letter was fiction. And after the setup of the opening paragraphs, that last line above is a thing of beauty.
Comment: #23
Posted by: hedgehog
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:33 AM
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LW1: Lise said it pretty well!
You sound like the most self-centered, selfish person in the world. Seriously -- you want to repay your friend for taking you in at your lowest moment by ruining her entire life? She does not know you very well, apparently. How DARE you say God "told" you to love her husband? God didn't tell you anything. If you were religious enough to believe in god, you would not be considering adultery. So drop the God routine - what, did you go to church and god showed up and said that you should take someone else's spouse? It. Did. Not. Happen. So. Stop. Lying.
You are also not in love with her husband. You are infatuated with someone who has shown you kindness. You'd be in love with anyone who took you in, because they are in essence, providing for you. A daddy figure of sorts. You can't figure out why he loves his wife? How about she DOESN'T Lie. She DOESN'T steal. She DOESN'T commit adultery. And she DOES have a job. None of which apply to you. I can't believe you, who got fired for theft, actually think that you have more to offer a man than your friend. Your friend has everything a man would look for. You have none of those qualities. I hope you don't ruin a marriage here. If you manage to get in his pants, and they break up, they will surely kick you out of their house. Then what will you have accomplished? You need to spend time learning to be an honest and good person, so that you can get a job again. Or else you'll be out of your friend's house, and will be panhandling on the side of the road. This is how people can become homeless. Don't ruin it for yourself.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Salty
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:50 AM
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@ Wkh
I disagree with your contention that a LD relationship can't survive unless it's an open one. Please, can't you control yourself for even a year in order to remain faithful to your beloved? Geesh! Yeah, sure, men have needs, blah blah blah. And women don't? It's called self-control and respect for your relationship. If LW2's boyfriend is so sexed up that he can't keep it in his pants while studying abroad for a year then their relationship was doomed and the distance had little to do with it. Your contention that thousands of service men were cheating on their wives while lying to them that they were being faithful just makes my skin crawl. Way to go proving what women have been saying for years. Men really are pigs.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:57 AM
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LW1 - All the respondents had great points. Though, I would like to add... I wish I could say I didn't believe it, but I do... for several reasons. It is always so hard to believe that anyone would actually display such stupidity, and ugliness. I've met a few just like her in my life. They honestly believed they were smarter, more beautiful, and worthy... regardless of the endless mistakes and pain they brought onto others. There was always a good excuse and they could not understand how us dummies didn't get it. They truly thought THEY were the victims in the mess they created. Kudos to all those that do dispute the story, it means that this behavior is unfathomable and you still have a little faith in human kind.
Comment: #26
Posted by: jajjaaj
Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:10 AM
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I believe LW1 is real because, as happymom pointed out, such people really do exist, and function, and go through life wanting what others have and not understanding why they don't have it. Because this woman is a moral basket case, she wouldn't understand why stealing, lying, or lusting for her friend's husband are abhorrent - she only understands that she's being thwarted. That's why it makes sense to me that she would lay it all out in the letter. In her world, nothing she does is "bad" - it's only "bad" when she gets caught. And I know how good it makes us all feel to tell her she's a @#$%^, but do any of you think that a person that self-absorbed would bother to read insults about herself BTL? (That is, if she even goes on Creators?)
Comment: #27
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:31 AM
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RE: LW2
nanchan and wkh - i couldn't have said it better
Chris - not so much
Chris - you're absolutely right when it comes to an older married man away from his wife for an extended period of time - of course he should, as you say "keep it in his pants". But a young man, not married, in college? No no no...this is the time when both young men and young women need to learn about the world, and that included dating. There is nothing that is more of a downer than your bf or gf, who is far away, calling you and saying things like "Where were you? Why weren't you there when I called?" and that kind of crap. Both these young people need to have FUN and meet people (and no, I'm not just talking about sex) and have the freedom to come and go as they please without worrying about bf or gf's call. Nanchan wa right...they need to decide NOT to be exclusive while they are away. Keeping in touch is fine, but as friends only. When they are both back at home, then they can decide what to do.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Pam
Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:41 AM
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Good googly moogly Lise, who pissed in your Corn Flakes this morning? I'll just address this as if it were true. LW1 got fired for stealing - I wouldn't tell that on myself either so I'm writing that one off. No idea what she stole, maybe it was state secrets or the bosses BF. It would be interesting to know but doesn't change the fact that she was fired. Actually I would have put a different spin on things but that would be rationalization on my part. The most telling of her missive is that her parents won't let her move back in. They have apparently had enough of bailing her out and Mom told her in no uncertain terms as much. Good for Mom. She then moves in with her kind friend and is trying to steal the husband. Not good but certainly not death penalty or serial killer offense. Could we tone it down from "Fucking Bitch" to something more palatable. (Again Lise, enough with the potty mouth! )
People who do these thing are not quite normal so if this is a true letter she will not hear or believe any of the advice or condemnation given here. I am more concerned with the reply from Lise, I think she needs to get a grip and stop with the discusting rants. As I have said before - as adults we can word things in a more mature way.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Penny
Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:51 AM
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LW1 - I would like to believe this letter is fake, but I have met and/or heard of too many people like this. You just can't make up this kind of crazy bat****.
This letter screams malignant narcissism. The million excuses as to why her own choices aren't her fault or why the rules don't apply to her, the lying to preserve her image, thinking her poop doesn't stink and using that as an excuse to trash the ONLY person who was willing to help her... I bet if we saw the unedited version of this letter it'd be even more appalling.
IMHO she's not even worthy of the good deed her friend did.
Oh and she hasn't fallen in love. Please. She's infatuated and immaturely entertaining it to toxic ends, just like the arrested development of a dysfunctional adolescent that she is. Her trying to blame it on God "telling" her what to feel for a married man makes me want to scream. She wasn't exactly thinking about God when she stole from her company and lied her butt off to her family!
I would suggest counseling but you can't do that with someone who doesn't think they have a problem. I'd have plenty of advice for her friend if she asked, but the LW in my book is a lost cause because she is so unrepentant. The best "counseling" she could receive is to fall on her behind hard enough because life finally whacked her hard with a clue by four that maybe, just maybe, it would bring her back to reality.
LW2 - I like the way Chris put it. Your father had a long distance relationship back before technology made it easier to reach out and touch someone, let alone see someone, thousands of miles away. There is SO much more at your fingertips than what Dad had, and as you pointed out, you already are in a long distance relationship. The only thing that would change is you'll be in different countries... otherwise it sounds like you already know what to do and in a way that works for you and your beau.
I also like that you and your boyfriend have been taking it slow, that you're not going to suddenly move in together after your stints overseas are done. You're going to talk it out first - very, very smart. Good on you. I think that does show you're ready to commit and you understand the big picture.
LW3 - The timing of this letter is uncanny. Next month, my church is hosting a group of homeless people and ministering to their needs for a week straight. In these times, you'd better bet there will be a lot of in-need folks staying with us... and thankfully we have enough good people who are doing okay in our parish that they will be able to help meet those needs with donations of food and other items.
So yes, churches are a good resource for those who are struggling. If a parish doesn't have its own means to help, they will know of food banks and other places that will help you get by.
Comment: #30
Posted by: PS
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:27 AM
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L1 - Well by golly sweetheart if god is telling you to fall in love with this man then you just better get busy and get on it and get you that man. You deserve him. If he still refuses you advances and does not understand god's master plan for the two of you then you have no choice but to quit wasting oxygen down here and to god in person. Wow. Please get off my planet. Yeah, readers that was not nice but damn! I'm getting crotchety in my old age.
LW2 - Unless you want him to sabotage his career and you to miss out on a great education you're just going to have to make the best of it. If it works then cool, if not then you can move in with your best friend and hit on her husband. When god closes a door s/he always opens a window so you can look out and find another man.
LW3 - Good idea. I guess there are some churches out there that actually support the community when it's needed.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Rick
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:46 AM
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Re: Gwen
Viele Danke!
@wkh
"A gf who is willing to go that long w/o sex is not going to be into it once you marry her...."
In other words, from the moment a woman likes sex, it means she just can't hold it in if the love of her life is not there to supply it, and is just gonna bang the nearest Tom, Dick or Harry? That would make women nothing but an animal in a rut, which is simply not true.
What IS true, is that women usually get to the point where empty sex with someone they don't care about is meaningless and not satisfactory anyway - even when they like sex and are missing it a lot.
@jajjaaj
I DO hope the letter is a fake but I've seen people exactly like her too. And they're just as sickeningly revolting as the letter from LW1. They don't even understand why so many people are revulsed by their behaviour, they really are that entitled. Unfortunately, the reason they feel that way is because they're sociopaths, narcissists, borderline personality... none of which is fixable with either medication or therapy. An essential component is missing without which it is impossible to work. You can't use therapy techniques that appeal to someone's decency when there is no decency to build upon to start with.
@Maggie Lawrence
"but do any of you think that a person that self-absorbed would bother to read insults about herself BTL?"
Actually, yes, precisely because she is that self-absorbed.
@Penny
The difference between humans and animals is feelings of guilt and the ability to feel remorse when something wrong has been done. The LW obviously doesn't qualify. Guilt and remorse are what keeps the society glued together and people behaving decently. If they are absent, then you're faced with someone who will steal, lie, even kill if she can get away with it, to get what she wants, without a second thought about what it does to others. And this is exactly what we're faced with here, as illustrated by her wish to "smack that sweet smile off her face". No doubt she would have no compunction about getting violent, if not for the possibility of ending up in jail.
There are no names so crude that she doesn't deserve them. Potty mouth, schmotty mouth, I'm just calling a spade a spade, as it deserves to be. People who keep sanitising everything never see things the way they are. For you to demand that everything always be "'toned down"... You are EXACTLY the kind of person she is counting on to keep on getting away with her disgusting behaviour.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:55 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
Actually with borderline, some are finding success with a technique called dialectical behavior therapy, or DBT. Like any other technique it doesn't work for every case, but for those who do respond it can be very helpful. Medication under certain circumstances can also help someone with borderline be more receptive to treatment, and knowing they can talk about it and they're not alone is instrumental as that encourages someone willing to get help to keep going when they feel like giving up.
It still bears saying that borderline is VERY hard to treat, even with advances in what experts know about it and finding treatment methods that work. The therapist is often fighting against a very complicated, irrational set of thoughts and beliefs because, in short, emotions are short-circuiting any rational thought process. My hat's off to any who take on such an arduous undertaking AND even more so can do it successfully.
I've also seen some with borderline speak out about their condition when they get diagnosed. Some are on the community where I volunteer and it is a side effect of having been abused. Those who are willing to talk about and accept their diagnosis say it's a living hell that they never would have chosen for themselves... and those are the ones for whom I hold out the most hope, because being honest with themselves is half the battle. Many of them are pretty horrified when they grasp exactly just how pervasive and damaging borderline is for them and for their loved ones.
It does not excuse that person's behavior if he/she is abusive and dangerous. People still need to do what they have to do to protect themselves if someone is a danger to them.
But since learning some of the things I have about borderline and treatment options that are becoming available, I don't write them off as a whole the way I did a few years ago. I now see it as being like a lot of other mental illnesses where the degree of severity is on a scale that can range from mild to OMG and the level of success in treating it depends on the individual, how the illness affects them, the degree of commitment they are willing to apply, and how much they get support from the right places (unfortunately, not every friend or family member wants to see someone get well).
Comment: #33
Posted by: PS
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:22 AM
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Lise, "but do any of you think that a person that self-absorbed would bother to read insults about herself BTL?"
Actually, yes, precisely because she is that self-absorbed.
You hit the nail on the head with that one - does it hurt?
Comment: #34
Posted by: Penny
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:26 AM
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Was Gwen right when she said that it was Lise's birthday?? If that's true, Lise, then happy birthday!!!!!!!!
Comment: #35
Posted by: happymom
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:59 AM
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Re: PS
Excellent post about borderline. I was struck though about the fact that first a person needs to ADMIT they have the problem. The LW in this case has made it clear that she doesn't feel she has a problem, so not much hope.
Comment: #36
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:16 AM
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LW1 : I won't even discuss the fact that you're 40, a thief, a liar and homeless.....
but you're a terrible terrible best friend. How can you insult your "best" friend in that way? You essentially called her ugly, boring and you think that you're much better than her.
Oh AND the fact that you've allowed yourself to be in love with her husband.
I believe you're putting your best friend down and made it up in your mind that you're better than her because everything else in your life is going wrong.
How can you have any pride in yourself when you've stolen, lost your home, have no job, are homeless, etc. at the age of 40?
Trust me...your "best friend"'s boyfriend will not find anything remotely attractive about you.
Get your life together and maybe learn to stop being a bitch.
Comment: #37
Posted by: tapeoca
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:17 AM
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@Penny
Love your last post! You "nailed" it!
Comment: #38
Posted by: CB
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:37 AM
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Re: wkh
"It doesn't make the guys jerks or cheats, it makes them normal healthy young men"
Cheating on your partner makes you a cheater. The reasons don't matter. You are still a cheater. It is ALWAYS wrong to be in a relationship that your partner thinks or assumes is monogamous, and to sleep with someone else. That IS cheating. Grownups say "I'm sorry, this isn't working out" - break it off FIRST, or agree to maintain an open relationship. Lying is lying. Cheating is cheating.
I also highly disagree with this:
"A gf who is willing to go that long w/o sex is not going to be into it once you marry her...."
That is bull. I spent almost that much time in China, away from my now husband, and I didn't sleep with anyone while I was there. I can assure you that I did not come home and say "sex once a year sounds about right, now let's separate the twin beds!" Come on, wkh, people can adapt, a year isn't that much time, and masturbation is a thing that exists. I'm sorry you have so little respect for men and their ability to keep it in their pants. I know (without a shadow of a doubt) that my now-husband did not CHEAT on me while I was gone. I know because I gave him the choice to have an open relationship and he declined.
Re: Pam
My husband was not married and a virgin well past his college years and there's nothing wrong with his sex drive.
You know, I think I'd be offended if I were a young man reading these comments. How little respect do you have for their ability to control themselves, and respect a relationship and a woman they presumably care for and/or love? Good heavens. I feel like in a parallel universe BTL a bunch of men are saying "you can't expect a young woman to go to a mall and not buy some shoes, even if she promised not to spend any of your money. That's just how young women are! They can't control themselves, so don't expect them to!"
Ladies, what is your thought process on this? Do you think that men are truly inferior beings with zero ability to put "it" away for more than a week? Or that they simply don't care about us womenfolk enough to just jerk it for a few months, and we'd better accept it now? Or is it that you think that one year in a young man's life is SO important to his sexual development that he'll just fall apart if he doesn't get laid regularly between the ages of 18 and 25? Did this happen to you and you need to justify your unfortunate choice or luck in men by acting like all men are this way? Or are you just trying to be that "cool chick" that gets all the attention from the boys?
Re: happymom / jajjaaj
Oh yeah, there are people like that out there... but they don't write to advice columnists making themselves sound horrible, saying "I was fired from my job for stealing and was so embarrassed I didn't tell anyone!". As jajjaaj's says, they make themselves out to be the victim and justified in their actions. That's not how LW is portraying herself. I could believe that it was real and it was edited, and in doing so it made it sound fake.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Zoe
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:46 AM
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Re: PS
Thank you for the info on the latest research on borderline treatments. You're right that, even in the best of cases, it's still a very difficult problem to tackle, when at all possible. But in the case of any problem, nobody can fix anything if the one with the problem is not willing to admit s/he needs help.
In the case of this LW, she is not in the least interested in seeing that she has a problem, which would make it not just difficult, but impossible to address. Whatever it is. I would tend to put my money on her being a malignant narcissist - but I'm not an expert of course. The only thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't touch her with a barge pole, and no doubt her own mother has had enough of being burned.
@Happymom
Thank you, I'm turning 60 today.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:53 AM
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Lise, you really just don't get it. You seem to be articulate enough, but then you descend into your vulgar, repetitive rants as if that's the only way to discuss a pathetic loser like LW1. But you call that "calling a spade a spade." Is that what you call it when people BTL call you out? Not a chance! Then it's a "hate Lise campaign." And do you really think LW1 is going to read your post, look at herself in the mirror and say "By golly, she's right! I really AM a "F.B." I know you absolutely have to have the last word, so go ahead. I've got other things to do.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:57 AM
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@wkh, I don't think anyone is suggesting that long-distance relationships are "easy" because of things like Skype -- but it does make them "easier".
@Chris, plenty of women cheat, too, no need to bash men on this issue. Both genders have their share of "playas"!
I totally agree with the description of LW1 as a "ticking time bomb" who's "not right in the head", though.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:08 AM
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@Maggie, although I don't tend to use vulgar language here, I must say I frequently use it in real life (although rarely in public.)
"Words is just words". Sometimes a vulgarity is the *absolutely* correct word to use about a person, an action, or a situation. Some of the smartest people in the history of the world have cursed, sworn, been vulgar. Vulgarities have existed for as long as we've had language, and vulgarities persist for a very good reason -- sometimes they're spot on, exactly right for the situation -- and sometimes using a "kinder, gentler" expression just doesn't cut it.
If the vulgarity expresses what Lise -- or anyone here, she's not the only commenter here to use vulgar or insulting language by any stretch -- wants to express, then that's their choice, as long as Creators has such a loose policy, anyway.
Although I'm not all that comfortable with public vulgarities myself, I don't see them as all that big a deal, either. Certainly not enough to try to censor someone else over. Just skip over it, if it bugs you... and I'm not sure drawing more attention to the behavior will lessen it.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 AM
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@ Mike H
Um, If you read my post carefully and the original one to which I responded (Wkh) you'll see I was actually defending men.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:18 AM
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@Mike H
Just because a vulgar word exists, doesn't mean it has to be used. Vulgarity is not only disrespectful to the reader, it demeans the poster as well. Of course we all use such words, but, in a forum where the responses are typed, one has the luxury of time to come up with alternate and more creative terminology. Let's bring the tenor of the discussion up not down.
As for skipping over a post: how do you know whether to skip over something until you read it?
Comment: #45
Posted by: CB
Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:32 AM
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Penny and Maggie said it best!!!!
Comment: #46
Posted by: cbhunt
Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:50 AM
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Mike H, whereas I usually agree with you - on this issue I won't. I am quite sure many smart people use vulgar language - BUT smart people know better than to put it in print. Aside from fiction writers I can't think of anyone I considered smart using the language nor sentiment expressed in print here today. This isn't a slip in judgment it is a reoccuring theme and one that has been addressed many times before. But rather than adjust her writing to accomodate the general public who finds the language AND seniment objectionable, she bullies on claiming that she is right and the ones objecting are wrong. That is the only way to say what she wants to say. Just because you can be a foul mouth, nasty, skanky, always right harpy doesn't mean you have to be. I think I got my point across without having to lower my standards. Most of the time I find it unbelievable that she doesn't see the irony in what she writes. And before you respond with, "then just don't read post from those you find objectional." I also have the right to read and post what I want. I can also call a "spade a spade".
Comment: #47
Posted by: Penny
Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:11 PM
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Zoe:
"Ladies, what is your thought process on this? Do you think that men are truly inferior beings with zero ability to put "it" away for more than a week?"
Absolutely not! My husband was a virgin on our wedding night and truth be told, I wish I could have given the same gift to him when we finally got to be together that way. Honestly it would have lowered my expectations and I think it would have been more fun to discover each other with both of us being brand new to that territory, though DH hasn't exactly complained :-)
DH has also had to "curb it" through a difficult post-partum phase after my son's birth (I prolapsed so the wait was longer), and then again when I had a hysterectomy. Ditto with when a lot of ugly stuff came up in therapy and I was too emotionally and physically exhausted for sex for several weeks. God bless that man, he has been patient through it all, and believe me I have paid him back in spades every single time.
It's not to say that there aren't some who give their gender a bad name, but the same could be said for some women, as we saw in today's column.
nanchan:
"I was struck though about the fact that first a person needs to ADMIT they have the problem. The LW in this case has made it clear that she doesn't feel she has a problem, so not much hope."
Exactly. As cynical as I am about these kinds of situations, some little voice in the back of my head still says well, there's always some smidgen of hope... maybe because of my own history of stupid choices telling me so.
At the same time, I'll be the first to say you have to get to a place where you SEE your own stupid choices and recognize them for what they are, then swallow that ugly pill and get down to do the dirty work of doing what it takes to get better. Nobody could pry my eyes open for me, I had to get to where I chose to do it because I wanted to reverse the damage before it was too late and I lost those who mean the most to me. Simply put, I did NOT want to end up divorced again because I couldn't break the cycle of abuse inflicted on me, and I did NOT want my children to end up being like me, hating life and hating their Mom in their 30s, because I was horrid to them and too proud to admit I needed other people to help me because I couldn't do this on my own.
So as much as "get counseling" is good advice because it could benefit the LW, it's only as good as the LW wants it to benefit her, and she has to have the willingness to hear the truth. Right now, that just ain't happening.
Lise:
See what I said to nanchan above :-) In other words, I agree... and Happy Birthday! Hope it's a good one.
Comment: #48
Posted by: PS
Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:31 PM
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Does anyone else think LW1 is a fake?
Comment: #49
Posted by: Casey
Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:43 PM
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Happy birthday, Lise!!
Comment: #50
Posted by: Casey
Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:09 PM
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@ happymom - yep, I've known this type of woman before. It's not the actual man she wants, it the wife's life. Somehow this crazy type of person thinks that if the wife is gone then they can just step into her shoes and have that same life.
Comment: #51
Posted by: kristen
Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:12 PM
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RE: Casey # 49 and other posters
I personally think that Letter # 1 is a fake. I just can't imagine anyone being so low - admitting to stealing, lying to cover up why she was fired, slamming her best friend to the ground (more or less) as she badmouthed her all the way to the ground. Then to top it off, has the hots for the best friend's husband. Nah, no way would someone admit to all this and then have the BALLS to write in to the Annies for advice. And if this is a true letter, the LW needs a good slap up along the side of the head, along with therapy. At 40 years old, she knows exactly what she's doing. Even a 14 year old would have better sense than LW. LW - you need to get your life together, stand on your own 2 feet and have yourself checked out for MENOPAUSE, it may be setting in the way you're acting.
Lise - Hope you're having a great day. Take care !! No snow yet over this way.
Comment: #52
Posted by: Gwen
Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:33 PM
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Re: Vulgarity
I don't know why you all are so offended by Lise's vulgarity. She isn't going to change. I find it far more offensive that she suggested that LW1 deserves death for being a crappy person (if they are even real). I think we should keep our violent thoughts for people who truly deserve it.
The thing is, when you start calling everyone vulgar names and suggesting that they deserve awful things, people stop taking you seriously. This is why I did not even read Lise's post until now, to see what the hubbub was about. I browsed over it when I logged on today to read the comments, saw "well Lise is having a bitchfest with LW1" and skipped right past it.
Although sometimes vulgarity can be appropriate or funny, it is often a sign of weakness. If you are getting so upset - in this case about something printed in an advice column - that you need to swear and get all in a tizzy, you don't have much emotional fortitude.
Comment: #53
Posted by: Zoe
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:05 PM
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LW1, God "told you" to fall in love with your friend's husband? I actually feel sorry for you, because it sounds like you really do need help. You have a real problem taking ownership of your life and actions. A good start would be to admit the real reason you were fired. And then get the hell out of that house, pronto. Right now you're a toxic presence in your friend's life, and that's hardly fair to someone who has been so kind to you. Again, get help. Please.
Comment: #54
Posted by: Jon
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:10 PM
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As I was reading the comments about LW1, I realized something. Many people witness a relationship that they would like to have, as in this case. Healthy people would then think, "I need to find a relationship like that." Selfish/sick people think, "I need the person in that relationship to make me happy like that." The problem is, they will not have the same relationship as the one they witnessed, no matter how hard they try. The connection is what is they want, not the person. They think that only THAT person will do. So, they fixate on the person instead of finding the right relationship. It is so much easier, in their minds, to just substitute themselves for the current spouse and things will be perfect for them, without all the hassle of dating. THAT's why so many people go for married/attached people! *smacks forehead* They just want to jump into someone else's lives and live it, forgetting that they are bringing their crazy selves along and they are nothing like the current spouse. Thus, the relationship would be nothing like the current one, except in their own fantasies. Duh. I feel so stupid. *hangs head in shame* Unfortunately, some marriages end because they act on fantasies such as these.
Comment: #55
Posted by: Julie
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:27 PM
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LW1:I once had an employee like this, she not only embezzled from us but made a play for my husband. Her own husband had left her because he caught her in too many lies, mostly about her spending. Not long after we caught her (yes, we reported it to the bank and police) her sister came to me to borrow money.
LW2: There actually are some advantages to a LDR--I was in one for three years in college, and found out that it was very freeing. It was well known that I had a hometown boyfriend and had a frat pin from his campus 300 miles away (we wrote often and talked occasionally on the phone), so I could have coffee with anybody and nobody thought I was poaching, and I did go to a couple of major social functions with platonic guy friends. At one time we seriously talked about my moving to where he was in grad school, but I took the opportunity of an overseas trip with family. What broke us up was not the distance but his attitude--he actually riduculed me for being faithful.
Vulgar langauge: my family avoided bad language, but there was lots of it in the neighborhood I grew up in. I make a point of finding expressive but non-vulgar words to use in emotional situations, and get more response from an emphatic "rats!" than overused vulgaries. My observation is that people who commonly use such language often do not even realize it and don't notice it, and people who don't, find it distracting. So why use it?
Comment: #56
Posted by: partsmom
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 PM
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It's not just one thing w/Lise it's the daily constant barrage of critiques of other posts, constantly looking for a fight, and quite frankly she has worn out her welcome. Tomorrow or even today she will be back spouting her venom. The only advice here is to completely ignore her. That is the only thing she will understand. When she critiques your posts (as hard as it may be) IGNORE Her. She will be forced to eventually cool her jets.
Comment: #57
Posted by: Hadenough
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:54 PM
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Julie, well said.
Comment: #58
Posted by: Hadenough
Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:33 PM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence, Penny et al
People calling me a moron, a bitch, a liar, a hypocrite, a fraud, a fat slob, a stupid idiot, etc etc etc etc etc would indeed be "calling me out' if these terms were accurate to describe me. What I called LW1 IS accurate, as I hope we can agree. Yeah, it was crude - and so is she. And may I remind you that I never called you or anyone else such terms of endearments as have been used on me - except to Chris, that one time when he was piling on that poor kid. But, as always, it's always okay when YOU guys do it.
All the words in the dictionary are there to be used when relevant, and I'm hardly the only one here to occasionally avail myself to the full spectrum of the English language. If every one of my posts was peppered with four-lettered profanity, you'd have a valid complaint, but it's hardly the case.
Nobody here is arguying that the LW is a despicable degenerate. In order words, what you object to is the wrapping, not the content. Newsflash - some things are NOT palatable, NOT nicey-nice-nice-nice, and that's why there are some words in any vocabulary that are less palatable than others.
Comment: #59
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:45 PM
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Re: Julie
Indeed that was a very interesting take.
Comment: #60
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:47 PM
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LW#1 - Physical beauty will fade. True beauty comes from within. You, lady, are as ugly as they come.
Comment: #61
Posted by: Diamethyst
Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:03 PM
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LW1: I love fake religious people. You pretend to be religious so you can fit in with the rest of the herd but in your reality your God tells you to steal and covet. Awesome - love it. Listen, psycho, it doesn't matter how many people you hurt - you will never fill the emptiness inside you. If you don't want therapy than prepare yourself for prison because with your tendencies that's exactly where you're going.
LW2: I think it's a good time to take a break. If you two are meant to be than you can always get back together later. Have fun - you're young. Its way to early in life to think about spending your life tied to one man.
Comment: #62
Posted by: Diana
Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:14 PM
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@Chris, sorry about that, your closing statement "Men really are pigs" just seemed *to me* to lead your post in a different direction, but if it was meant sardonically then I confess that I missed it.
@CB, I disagree, vulgarity isn't *automatically* disrespectful to the reader; in fact, there are plenty of ways to use non-vulgar language and be even more disrespectful. Most of us are adults here, and if there *is* going to be censorship of vulgarities, it's up to Creators to state and enforce such a ban. Otherwise, it's just a fact of life here, and like anything else, if you don't like it, skip it.
As for how to know what to skip, if you've decided certain posters have a style you don't like, it's easy enough to read the bottom of each post first. Even on the busiest of days we don't get *that* many comments here.
@Penny, it's okay, people can disagree, we're never going to reach a point where an open, unmoderated forum is going to achieve complete harmony and agreement in all things. But that's kind of my point; people have articulated this argument before, and people have disagreed, and its made no difference. So re-hashing the argument seems a bit pointless to me.
If you don't like certain types of language, don't use such language, and ignore those who do. That's really all anyone can do here.
I spent a lot of time on an online forum in the 1990s that had an incredibly intelligent member who used language far worse than anything anyone here ever has, and he used it far more frequently. I enjoyed debating with him because his mind was so sharp, and his arguments so cogent, that it really was challenging and made me think of things in different ways. I did object to his habit of jumping to vulgar insults whenever he was challenged or he objected to somebody's weak argument; his frequent reply, however, made me open my eyes: he said that an insult couched in polite language is just as insulting, and is also more sneaky and underhanded, than an insult stated as a flat-out vulgarity.
Since that time, I've not only been less concerned about the use of vulgarities, but I also pay attention to the underhanded ways in which people can attack and insult and yet still claim to be "nice" simply because they disguise their attacks in non-vulgar language.
Ideally, we'll all get along, that would be my most fervent wish. But it's also variety that spices things up here, and part of that means accepting that people express things we don't agree with and sometimes in a manner we don't like.
I'm not at all suggesting you should change what you post, Penny -- or anyone else, for that matter. It just may be less frustrating if there's some other way you can find of dealing with a situation you have no real power to change. I don't want to see Lise change or leave; nor do I want to see you change or leave, or anyone else for that matter, even the rare commenter that I myself vehemently disagree with.
But I'm probably too optimistic where this is concerned; wouldn't be the first time!
Comment: #63
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:31 PM
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Back again...
The discussion about LDRs being "easier" these days due to technology makes me wonder- is it really? I was living abroad a few years ago and not a single LDR around me worked out, nor were any of those I was aware of in university...nor did mine. I actually question whether technology makes it easier or harder?
The advantage of the "pen pal" days was that each lover could simply go on with their lives, looking forward to the next letter, and writing back as soon as convenient. Yes, each partner had to go without physical affection, but were rearranging nothing else in their lives- and in the really old days, there was likely relatively little physical affection before marriage anyways. And should the worst happen and one parter have an indiscretion, it was much easier to "bury" (as abhorrent as it sounds, we're presuming these partners were not yet married, and these indiscretions were one-offs in a moment of loneliness or whatever).
Skype, email, phones, etc., increases the expectations of each parter in a LDR. You have to be home to talk at a certain time. Going too long without returning a message creates friction. Socializing has to be truncated and put on hold to accomodate when the other person is available. You have to be in constant contact with a person who you cannot enjoy any affection with, and whose life you cannot experience in any significant way. And of course, with sexual relationships now very common before marriage, the simple fact is not everyone can "go without" for a year once that line has been crossed. Some can. Those committed enough will get by. But not everyone can ignore those urges for months on end when viable alternatives are nearby.
I know in my LDRs, I found Skype, etc., MORE frustrating than I probably would have found email-only, for those aforementioned reasons. WIth one bf in particular I saw every few weeks, I began to really resent having to put other things on hold to talk to him when he was available. That may sound selfish and immature, but I was 19, working, going to school, doing extracurriculars, and having an active social life. The "OMG I have to go home and call my bf" thing really made me feel tied down. Anyone else want to weigh in on this idea?
Comment: #64
Posted by: Jers
Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:03 PM
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Re: Jers
"The discussion about LDRs being "easier" these days due to technology makes me wonder- is it really? I was living abroad a few years ago and not a single LDR around me worked out, nor were any of those I was aware of in university...nor did mine. I actually question whether technology makes it easier or harder?"
It makes it easier to superficially keep in touch, but the emotional hardship of being physically apart is the same.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 PM
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First, you SAY you stole from your workplace. Then you SAY you lied to your family and friends of why you were jobless and the fact you quit your job to go back to school. Then because you could not pay your home loan, you are homeless.
My first reaction is this is a bogus letter.
THEN I read a few posters, who seemed to be on the same track.
At age 40, I presume that you are not working at a fast food place where workers come and go on a frequent basis. And since you are single, you would have had to have a job for a lenth of years in order to get a mortgage for a house in the first place.
By age 40, you should have had more worldly wisdom on board. Your whole 'story' has the drippings of a young adult/older teen trying their hand at a writing assignment for a class. It is quickly put into X words or less. (259--I enlisted word count.)
Anyone who was going through this in real life would know that in less than the 6 months--I would guess 3-4--that your house is not pulled from you. Either by default OR bankruptcy. It takes 12 months of being in arrears for the mortgage company to set into the scene. They might have been mailing letters, but legal work and the sealing of the door can take a couple years. If you had been charged with a felony, they could have moved faster on it to gain it as payment for your public defender (happening locally right now). A bankruptcy would take about 4-5 years but your failings on a shorter note would have been in your history and you would not have been approved for the mortgage.
To be 40, that means your parents are about 60 or so. And that generation did not on a regular basis abandon their kids to their own probelms, would have helped find an attorney, or some other help to get things on even keel. You don't say your parents are broken down scum bags--which COULD be a reason they would have dismissed you with the outgoing trash--as you suggest.
Another note, if this friend, who has been married for 10 years, and was your best friend--you don't say how she might have helped you all along. And to want to jump her hubby's bones and that she did not deserve him, ETC you speak as a stranger in discussion, not someone who was her best friend. Like how plain she is, etc. If she had been your best friend, all this would not come to light. You are just saying that THE PLACE I AM STAYING AT FREE HAS A HOTTIE IN PANTS AND A WIFE WHO IS A RAG.
All made up story line, not well thought out and for this assignment, whether college or HS, you should have an F. It is not even creative writing. It is coping from a bathroom stall. You have no start, middle or end to this story.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW2 Gal afraid she and boyfriend would not feel the same if they go their separate ways to college. If it was meant to be, it will still be. But don't go away as a couple, that can make sure many things won't happen, including friendships for life. If your hearts are to be as one, they still will after the time as passed. And do it without guilt for/against each other.
Your dad may or may not be correct, different day and time. But he has wisdom in his age and life. And all he wants in the best for you two.
Comment: #66
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:31 PM
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To weigh in on Jers idea, it does make sense. Technology makes communicating easier, but it does seem to raise the expectation of being available to a heightened degree for all aspects of life, not just romantic relationships. There are many people who expect you to drop everything to talk to them, whether it be dinner, out with friends, etc. Some people will buzz my phone off the hook despite having been told earlier I would not be available at given time earlier in the day until I have to either turn the phone off or pick up, and then they are in a huff over having to wait for an answer or if I do not answer. I for one get tired of being constantly contacted through technology so often by these people and having to constantly put my activities on hold for them, yet these same people never bother to drop by in the flesh which I would enjoy. It makes me wonder if technology does not also make people lazy when it comes to putting forth effort in a relationship.
I've only had a couple ldr, but plenty pen pals. I enjoyed the pen pals more because I got an old fashioned hand written letter or an email. I was able to enjoy reading their letter at my own leisure, then I could write them back and put lots of thought into my letters. The subjects were more meaningful, thought provoking, and in depth because of this, plus we both got to talk in our letters without interruption so we learned so much from one another and about each other. Writing letters became a favorite pass time.
Neither of the ldr lasted long. The first was when I was still in high school, about ninth grade. It only lasted for about nine months and neither of us were very serious. We saw each other in person about once a month, but we talked on the phone often. This was the only form of communication. I began to somewhat resent it though because I wanted to go outside and be a tom boy instead. I hated having to wait in the house for my boyfriend to call. When he cheated on me, I felt relieved because I then had an excuse to dump him, and my friends were staring at me expecting tears but I wanted to jump for joy. I think I have to agree with Jers about this, but only cause of my experience.
Comment: #67
Posted by: Maria
Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:43 PM
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Re: Mike H
Mike,
Your posts are always so reasoned and intelligent. I can never disagree seriously with any point you make. That being said, in a mild forum such as this, there really is no need for anyone to resort to such vulgar language and talk of someone deserving to die. Of course, and very sadly, we have all heard the vulgar words, and many of us have probably even given some thought to how a word, in an of itself, can be evil. After all, they are just words, right? But having given it all that thought, an intelligent, thoughtful person in control of their own emotions, does not need to resort to offensive words and screaming caps. That is just my opinion, humbly stated. No need to stoop to your lowest level to express an opinion against even someone as hateful as LW1, if it is not fake.
Comment: #68
Posted by: Carly O
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:07 PM
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Re: Joyce/MN
"You have no start, middle or end to this story."
Which is exactly why it's probably true! There ARE "people" like that. Sadly.
Comment: #69
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:53 PM
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Re: Carly O
It's not a question of "need". It's a question of relevance. The fact that someone as "reasoned and intelligent" should rise to my defense should tell you something.
Comment: #70
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:03 PM
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hadenough-ENOUGH ALREADY!
lise may have a more uninhibited vocabulary that some of us, but so what? don't read them if they bother you. lise won't care a bit. i may not always agree with her but she has as much right to post her opinion as anyone else.
Comment: #71
Posted by: alien07110
Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:43 AM
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Re: alien07110
Looks like I've been having a birthday bash-in! ;-D
Comment: #72
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:35 AM
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@Carly O, many thanks, and I do see your point, I truly do. But thoughtful and intelligent people may also disagree and choose to use stronger words because they think it's the right choice for what they want to express.
Comment: #73
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:07 AM
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OK...I know I'm late on this reply but this is my first chance back on the computer since yesterday...
@Zoe...it would be SOOO much better if you actually READ my comments (#28) before you comment (#39) on them. I don't think I said anything to offend young men. To quote myself, I said, "this is the time when both young men and young women need to learn about the world" and "and no, I'm not just talking about sex". It's just that in today's world the LW and her boyfreind are way to young to make that kind of commitment to each other. These young people need to go thier separate ways and take full advantage of the opportunities that are in front of them, keep in touch as friends, and that is it. Nothing will kill this relationship quicker than ongoing texts that say, "Where are you? Who are you with? Why weren't you home last night?" etc. on either parties' part.... If it is meant to be, then when they both get back, they will fall back together right where they left off.
Comment: #74
Posted by: Pam
Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:34 AM
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Bravo to Penny, Maggie and Hadenough!! enough already Lise.
Comment: #75
Posted by: Anne
Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:35 AM
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Re: Pam
You said:
"Chris - you're absolutely right when it comes to an older married man away from his wife for an extended period of time - of course he should, as you say "keep it in his pants". But a young man, not married, in college? No no no"
How else am I supposed to take that other than you saying that a young man should not be expected to keep it in his pants while away from his girlfriend??
You also said:
"Both these young people need to have FUN and meet people (and no, I'm not just talking about sex)"
Not JUST sex. But still, sex. My contention is that young people do NOT "need" to have sex
I'm with you on the rest of it, but you still said what I quoted. It's hard to packpedal when it's recorded in text, ain't it?
And also, I referred to "these comments" in my "if I was a young man, I'd be offended" statement. It wasn't just you. But it was still partly you.
Comment: #76
Posted by: Zoe
Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 AM
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Re: Hadenough
Gee, your finger must have been seriously twitching. I don't know if I should be flattered that I have such an effect on you...
Lemme get this straight: an anonymous screen name is not safe enough yet, you have to hide beind a sock puppet for you to dare to have an opinion? No wonder you're so allergic to the once-is-a-rare-while crudity you risk running across in my posts. Tell you what, pal, avoid my signature in the future, it's not good for your frail eyes, which are already being blinded by anything a little too bluntly true.
Comment: #77
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 AM
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Zoe - in answer to your question "How else am I supposed to take that other than you saying that a young man should not be expected to keep it in his pants while away from his girlfriend??" My answer is absolutely no, he shouldn't be expected to, and neither should she. They are only boyfriend/girlfriend, not married. Most, not all, college relationships are about finding out who you are and meeting people, including dating, and yes, sex. Maybe this would make more sense if you knew where I was coming from....I was one of those girls in college who DID have a boyfriend who I WAS faithful to, (and yes, he was faithful to me), yet he bugged the crap out of me every time I wanted to go out to dinner with my girlfriends, or go and see a concert, or just hang out in my friends' dorm room laughing and having a good time. (Thank God there was no such thing as texting back then or I probably would have been even more miserable). He expected me to sit in my dorm room every night and study while waiting for his phone call after 11:00 when the rates went down. (I'm really dating myself here). In the end, I did NOT end up marryng this guy. So I wasted what was supposed to be "the best years of my life" at the time. We both would have been a lot happier had we broken up, or agreed to see others, when we went off to different colleges. I don't want to see the same thing happen to the LW. Both her opportunity and his are too awesome to be messed up by some little "boyfriend/girlfriend" crap. (Side note: I'm happily married now...and will give this same advice to my own children someday.)
Comment: #78
Posted by: Anne
Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:22 AM
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My sister used my account!!! (Yes, Pam and I are sisters). She's the more vocal one. :)
Comment: #79
Posted by: Anne
Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:31 AM
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I'm also a different "Anne" than the one who posted above. I think I'll change my screen name to "Pam's Sister".
Comment: #80
Posted by: Anne
Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:33 AM
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I'm also a different "Anne" than the one who posted above. I think I'll change my screen name to "Pam's Sister".
Comment: #81
Posted by: Anne
Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:33 AM
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Re: Anne
I think we're on different pages. I think they SHOULD break up, even if temporarily (time will tell if they get back together after). Long distance relationships are usually a waste of time. BUT, IF they decide they want to STAY TOGETHER. And want to stay together EXCLUSIVELY. It is WRONG for either of them to have sex or any other sort of romantic involvement with anyone else. It is CHEATING / LYING and it is wrong, and immoral. Unless it is immediately preceded by or followed by "I'm sorry, I met someone else, it's over" or whatever.
You DO NOT sleep with someone else when you have a boyfriend/girlfriend who is expecting you to be faithful. It's just a shitty thing to do. If you can't keep it in your pants, break it off with the ol' ball and chain and bang whomever you want. Like a grownup.
Comment: #82
Posted by: Zoe
Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:44 PM
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Re: Zoe
I'm with you on that one. Either the two young people free each other to experience whatever while they're apart, all the while staying in close touch, possibly to get back together at a later date with no questions asked. Or they are committed to the relationship right from the get-go, in which case they're expected to stay true to each other. There is no one-size-fits-all, the people invo,ved are the ones who know what they want. And whatever the path chosen, sometimes it'll be a waste of time, sometimes not. But they can't have it both ways because they don't want to have any regrets. Being an adult involves choices, and the consequences matching these choices.
Comment: #83
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:28 PM
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OMG that's all I was saying to begin with...break up, staying in touch as friends is fine, but break up for God's sake and enjoy this time of your life!!!
Comment: #84
Posted by: Pam
Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:54 PM
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Lw1. This sounds trolled. But say its not. Let me tell you a little something about looks. They don't go real far when youve got the stomach flu and are puking and are grossing up the bathroom because you have the shits. It doesn't go far when you're pushing out a kis. Or when the hard times hit. Or someone dies. Real relationships require real fortitude from real people. You are so fake that your letter doesn't even sound real. Nobody could have a meaningful relationship with you because you are not capable of it.
Comment: #85
Posted by: Mom of Three
Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:31 AM
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Lw1. This sounds trolled. But say its not. Let me tell you a little something about looks. They don't go real far when youve got the stomach flu and are puking and are grossing up the bathroom because you have the shits. It doesn't go far when you're pushing out a kis. Or when the hard times hit. Or someone dies. Real relationships require real fortitude from real people. You are so fake that your letter doesn't even sound real. Nobody could have a meaningful relationship with you because you are not capable of it.
Comment: #86
Posted by: Mom of Three
Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:31 AM
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