Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1: Oh ANNIES! There are days when I want to shake the laptop. Your solutions reminded me of the old adage "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime."

If ever there was a LW who needed career change/counseling it's this one. LW, if you are reading this, please take heart. The real issue isn't that you are not earning enough for your hard work and you need either further education or career advice or BOTH to get past the jobs that pay "just above the poverty line" to ones that will pay you what you are WORTH.

Please read through the thread on December 13 where we give a lot of advice on job seeking, resume review, etc. (it may seem off topic because it was written towards someone already established in their careers, but the strategies are the same). I would also URGE you to contact your local unemployment office. They assist people, whether employed or not in most states, with finding work. Mine has career assessment testing avaiable as well.

Another good place to start is a local junior college. One of my childhood friend's mom does career counseling there for free.

Finally (and I hope we see other comments on this from the BTL peeps), my last suggestion is to contact your HR department. First of all, find out why you didn't get the raise. Was it job performance or (more likely) cutbacks? any chance you can request it again in three months? How about help with tuition for college degrees or certifications? My business partner took one test last year that DOUBLED his hourly rate (same company) because they were able to bill his time at twice the rate. Time it took to prepare (formally) for the test? One WEEK. Fully paid by his company. It's definately worth looking into.

getting help for one holiday is not going to solve your problem. You need to do as the Annie's said to get through RIGHT NOW, but then, do the work to move past the job you are in right now which is not paying you enough. I have BEEN there, and I know what you are going through, and let me tell you this. YOU CAN MOVE PAST THIS! I have faith in you! Be strong and move forward.

adendum: "The real issue isn't that you are not earning enough for your hard work" should read The real issue IS that you are not earning enough for your hard work"

Sorry!

LW 1: All I can say is here where I live there is the food shelf--for situations like this and many have had to use it. You don't say your age, but if you have school age children, make sure they are on the free or reduced lunches at school. The food shelf here has clothing closet for ANYONE to shop at very minimal price--most things $.50 and no more than $1. Winter coats are $2. They also have the heat assistance programs, and many other programs for when you fall through the cracks. They could also help you get into other finanical programming, re-educationing, etc.
I know that feeling of fear you may not have enough but as you talk of Christmas, just being together is the reason for the season. But wanting to give your kids something too is important. If they are young, apply for the Toys For Tots program in your area. No income verification necessary here, just a recommendation from your church, any one who knows you can call to ask to be on the list for your kids. Things at TFT may not be the ideal wish I had list but many of us either grew up in the same situtation or are IN the same situation.

If your chidlren are old enough--teens--babysitting, odd/ends jobs of sweeping at stores, to singing Christmas carols for personal greetings--many of the things kids do around here to raise funds.
You neglected to age out your kids, so advice has to be general.

LW1: Annie's are right on one thing - help often does not come unless you ask for it. Nanchan had some good ideas regarding work - solutions for the long term.
Short-term - you are expecting help from the wrong people - while it is logical that family "should" help - for whatever reason they do not (maybe they are waiting for you to actually ASK - and assume that if you don't ask, you don't need the help). I am one that will listen to a friend all day about "how tough it is" but if they don't actually ask me for some help, I'm not going to offer it - it does depend on the friend, though. Family - that's another story that I won't go in to.
Years ago I lost my husband and had a young child - he left behind a LOT of debt that I had to take care of, so until I got on my feet, I went to Goodwill, Salvation Army, local food banks that offered food packages for less (I, too, made too much for government assistance).
My son did not have any gifts for his first birthday - which now I realize does not matter - he doesn't remember it anyway (nor do I remind him). With no money, I learned how to create "gifts" that did not cost money, I learned how much I could do without having to pay money. Kids want your time more than anything - you can create tunnels through your house with blankets, towels and sheets in the house, go on scavenger hunts in the park, see who finds 5 animals (trees, leaves, rocks, cars, etc) first.
Also, let the kids' school counselors know you can't afford a Christmas for them - let Salvation Army and Goodwill know, too. When they are adults, they won't care that YOU weren't able to buy them things.
Just some thoughts - yes depression sucks (I have it as a symptom of my PTSD), but you need to be able to ask for the help - for your kids' sake.
Good luck!

LW1: Annie's are right on one thing - help often does not come unless you ask for it. Nanchan had some good ideas regarding work - solutions for the long term.
Short-term - you are expecting help from the wrong people - while it is logical that family "should" help - for whatever reason they do not (maybe they are waiting for you to actually ASK - and assume that if you don't ask, you don't need the help). I am one that will listen to a friend all day about "how tough it is" but if they don't actually ask me for some help, I'm not going to offer it - it does depend on the friend, though. Family - that's another story that I won't go in to.
Years ago I lost my husband and had a young child - he left behind a LOT of debt that I had to take care of, so until I got on my feet, I went to Goodwill, Salvation Army, local food banks that offered food packages for less (I, too, made too much for government assistance).
My son did not have any gifts for his first birthday - which now I realize does not matter - he doesn't remember it anyway (nor do I remind him). With no money, I learned how to create "gifts" that did not cost money, I learned how much I could do without having to pay money. Kids want your time more than anything - you can create tunnels through your house with blankets, towels and sheets in the house, go on scavenger hunts in the park, see who finds 5 animals (trees, leaves, rocks, cars, etc) first.
Also, let the kids' school counselors know you can't afford a Christmas for them - let Salvation Army and Goodwill know, too. When they are adults, they won't care that YOU weren't able to buy them things.
Just some thoughts - yes depression sucks (I have it as a symptom of my PTSD), but you need to be able to ask for the help - for your kids' sake.
Good luck!

Re: sotelling/Joyce

great advice for short term. My only comment on that is that most food banks and federally funded programs are maxed out, the energy assistance program in my area maxed out in ONE WEEK and no further assistance was available for 6 months (they got new funding available every half year). Many CHURCHES help more than the federal programs, including help with day care and counseling. Mine also has a great food bank and wardrobe assistance that is completely independant of the government. They also helped ME with tuition assistance at one point. If the LW belongs to a large church (or one that is connected), that's a great place to start.

LW2, if you were half as educated as you think you are, you'd know that saying "umm" has nothing to do with education (although, as the Annies said, in some cases it becomes a habit that one can learn to cut down). Here's a better suggestion: Drop the attitude and pick up a neurophysiology text.

LW1-Christmas presents and a Christmas tree are WANTS, not NEEDS. Your primary concern should be food. As for child support, go to the court and get it raised. Now, as for your relatives, ask if they can help you find a better job Perhaps they could employ one of your kids as a babysitter, or pay them to mow the lawn, wash the car, etc, so the kids can earn their own money.

To Thinking of You in N.D.
I am very sorry for your loss, and the holidays must make this loss even harder to bear. One of the stages of grief involves anger. You may be angry that your husband was taken away from you so suddenly. I don't know you so please forgive me for presuming this as I could be wrong. That said, it is likely that when people say they know how it feels, that they are only trying to offer you words of condolence. A lot of people do not know what to say and would like to say more than "I'm sorry for your loss" so they say they know how you feel because they lost (insert name of loved one they lost). Just remember that they are trying to show support. Of course they don't know how you feel. But maybe for them losing one of their parents was one of the saddest things that ever happened to them. Maybe they were close to that parent. I guess what I am trying to say is that when we lose someone we love, we feel like our own grief is the greatest, and it is, to us, because it is our grief and our loss. But to say that your loss is greater, well, I don't think you should quantify grief. Losing someone you love is terrible, no matter what.

LW 2 - Ummm ! I'll bet you're so perfect, umm, that you never caught yourself, ummm, saying "umm".

I'll bet you can get thru a sentence without saying "you know". I've heard a lot of people coming out with
that. I've done it, too. Yes, everyone has a pet peeve, so what, don't dwell on it. Don't sweat the small
stuff.

Ummm, you know, Santa is coming, ummm, you know !!! Frohe Weihnachtsfest !!

LW1--"There are several members of my family, as well as my ex's, who are well off, but no one offers or even asks if I could use some help." I'm sorry you're struggling but your family members are under no obligation whatsoever to subsidize your life. If you were going through a temporary low period (e.g., recent job loss, or health crisis) I could understand your request for a handout. In your case, however, it seems you're in the place you are because of poor planning. Did you worry about how you were going to raise three children on minimum wage before you decided to have three children? While one unplanned pregnancy could "just happen" three unplanned pregnancies don't. You made poor choices and now you're expecting others who made better choices to step in and bail you out. Sorry, it's your life, your choices now you deal with it. My advice to you is to do what you can to get a better education so that you're better equipped to support your family. If that means modifying your custody agreement while you attend college or trade school then so be it. Good luck.

LW2--They're called word crutches and everyone uses them in some form regardless of their education. My personal pet peeve is the overuse of the crutch "sort of" in conversations. Interview subjects on NPR are constantly peppering their conversations with this nonsensiccal word crutch. Something either is or it isn't. It isn't "sort of." In short, you should stop obsessing over these quirks of human nature since there isn't anything you can do about it and find something else to occupy your time and energy.

Wow, Chris, that's harsh. How do you know these kids were unplanned? Sounds to me like she was married when the kids were born, and that her ex still makes decent money. If he walked out on her and left her literally holding the baby, how is that remotely "poor planning" or her fault?

Speaking of the "filler" word, may I also throw in that the word "like" seems to be over used, as well. For instance, " OK, so like, I went to the store, to like, purchase some shoes. I was like, surprised when I could get, like, two pair, and like, get a matching purse. I was like, OMG! I'm so, like, all over this!"

LW1- being "just above the poverty line" doesn't exclude you from many government programs. You're probably eligible for food stamps (SNAP), if your children are under 5, you may also be eligible for WIC, and depending on your state, you or your children may also qualify for Medicaid. As far as insurance goes, you can also have the revisited in child support court, and possibly have your ex mandated to pay it in addition to his weekly support, which could take a huge burden off of you. In addition, local programs like food pantries/shelves will probably ask you to document your income, but they won't turn you away.

Chris, you do realize that LW1 almost certainly did not plan to raise three children alone on her salary, don't you? She refers to her ex, singular, so my guess is they were together long enough that BOTH of them counted on their pooled resources to raise the family.

We don't know why her ex is no longer in the picture or why he doesn't share custody. It's quite possible, maybe even probable, since the kids are with her, that he left her -- something she had no say in. And if she's going without food so the kids can eat, that IS his problem -- her health is important so she can properly care for the kids, who most definitely be our problem as a society someday if we don't get them help now.

LW does need to begin planning for long-term, but she won't be able to do that until her family's immediate needs are met. Definitely investigate free school lunch AND breakfast programs for your school-age kids; food banks (often income limits are above the minimum required for government assistance), Goodwill or Salvation Army thrift shops. Look into holiday gift progrrams to get presents for your kids -- we contribute to toy and clothing drives conducted through our offices, my kids' schools, local stores and our church. Swallow your pride, confide in a relative ask to be included in a relative's Christmas. See what it takes to get the court to increase your support payments.

Then, definitely look into education to increase your skills so you're able to earn more in your 40-hour work week and into ways of trimming your budget. (Learning to cook from scratch is a skill many young people no longer have, thanks to cuts in home economics classes and parents who didn't know themselves -- gardening is another possibility to help trim the food budget).

Chris, you do realize that LW1 almost certainly did not plan to raise three children alone on her salary, don't you? She refers to her ex, singular, so my guess is they were together long enough that BOTH of them counted on their pooled resources to raise the family.

We don't know why her ex is no longer in the picture or why he doesn't share custody. It's quite possible, maybe even probable, since the kids are with her, that he left her -- something she had no say in. And if she's going without food so the kids can eat, that IS his problem -- her health is important so she can properly care for the kids, who most definitely be our problem as a society someday if we don't get them help now.

LW does need to begin planning for long-term, but she won't be able to do that until her family's immediate needs are met. Definitely investigate free school lunch AND breakfast programs for your school-age kids; food banks (often income limits are above the minimum required for government assistance), Goodwill or Salvation Army thrift shops. Look into holiday gift progrrams to get presents for your kids -- we contribute to toy and clothing drives conducted through our offices, my kids' schools, local stores and our church. Swallow your pride, confide in a relative ask to be included in a relative's Christmas. See what it takes to get the court to increase your support payments.

Then, definitely look into education to increase your skills so you're able to earn more in your 40-hour work week and into ways of trimming your budget. (Learning to cook from scratch is a skill many young people no longer have, thanks to cuts in home economics classes and parents who didn't know themselves -- gardening is another possibility to help trim the food budget).

LW! in addition to all the good suggestions here, should again look into government assistance since the qualifying income level is adjusted by one's circumstances. I was surprised to find, upon retirement, that my mortgage payment, real estate taxes, health insurance premiums, and utilities (including cell phone, telephone, heat, electricity, cable television and internet access) all were deducted from my gross income to reduce it to an amount that was well within the guidelines for food stamp assistance. While in my case that assistance was only $37/month, it was still $37 more than I had had previously to cover food expenses. Others have told me that they included their monthly minimum credit card payments, life insurance premiums, auto loan payments and auto insurance in the amounts that were used to adjust down their income, but I have no first-hand knowledge concerning that; but I DO know that once I had qualified for the food stamp assistance I was also eligible for a bag of groceries from my senior center each month And eligible for fuel assistance as well (although I never seem to get the notice in time to apply). Many of the local food banks here are operated by individual churches and by the Catholic Charities group.

Definitely also go back to court and not only ask for increased child support but ask that the Court have it collected directly from his salary and then deposited by the Court into your bank account; that way your ex cannot be playing games with withholding the money. If you present a detailed report to the Court outlining Every single expense - down to the very smallest thing, you should be able to get that increase.

LW! in addition to all the good suggestions here, should again look into government assistance since the qualifying income level is adjusted by one's circumstances. I was surprised to find, upon retirement, that my mortgage payment, real estate taxes, health insurance premiums, and utilities (including cell phone, telephone, heat, electricity, cable television and internet access) all were deducted from my gross income to reduce it to an amount that was well within the guidelines for food stamp assistance. While in my case that assistance was only $37/month, it was still $37 more than I had had previously to cover food expenses. Others have told me that they included their monthly minimum credit card payments, life insurance premiums, auto loan payments and auto insurance in the amounts that were used to adjust down their income, but I have no first-hand knowledge concerning that; but I DO know that once I had qualified for the food stamp assistance I was also eligible for a bag of groceries from my senior center each month And eligible for fuel assistance as well (although I never seem to get the notice in time to apply). Many of the local food banks here are operated by individual churches and by the Catholic Charities group.

Definitely also go back to court and not only ask for increased child support but ask that the Court have it collected directly from his salary and then deposited by the Court into your bank account; that way your ex cannot be playing games with withholding the money. If you present a detailed report to the Court outlining Every single expense - down to the very smallest thing, you should be able to get that increase.

LW! in addition to all the good suggestions here, should again look into government assistance since the qualifying income level is adjusted by one's circumstances. I was surprised to find, upon retirement, that my mortgage payment, real estate taxes, health insurance premiums, and utilities (including cell phone, telephone, heat, electricity, cable television and internet access) all were deducted from my gross income to reduce it to an amount that was well within the guidelines for food stamp assistance. While in my case that assistance was only $37/month, it was still $37 more than I had had previously to cover food expenses. Others have told me that they included their monthly minimum credit card payments, life insurance premiums, auto loan payments and auto insurance in the amounts that were used to adjust down their income, but I have no first-hand knowledge concerning that; but I DO know that once I had qualified for the food stamp assistance I was also eligible for a bag of groceries from my senior center each month And eligible for fuel assistance as well (although I never seem to get the notice in time to apply). Many of the local food banks here are operated by individual churches and by the Catholic Charities group.

Definitely also go back to court and not only ask for increased child support but ask that the Court have it collected directly from his salary and then deposited by the Court into your bank account; that way your ex cannot be playing games with withholding the money. If you present a detailed report to the Court outlining Every single expense - down to the very smallest thing, you should be able to get that increase.

Sorry. seems the website is hiccuping again this a.m. :0)

LW2: I taught English overseas for many years and always included at least one class on what I called "fillers" (many of these are regional, umm is universal, but where I was raised "like" is used as a filler, for many young people "ya know what I'm sayin? " is used as a filler.... the list goes on and is definately generational and regional)

For people learning to speak English as a second langage these fillers are imperative to learn because they give the speaker time to find the appropriate word. I noticed right off the bat my students would automatically lapse intoe their native tongue which then broke their train of thought and it was harder to get them back on track with English.

Being back home, I've noticed the use of fillers especially again with people trying to form their thoughts. Personally, it does not annoy me unless someone does that when giving a prepared speech (this happens a lot in politics and drives me nuts). If you have prepared what you are going to say, you shouldn't have to search for the right words, you've already written them (or had them written).

LW, I'm with the school of thought that this is not something to obsess about, unless UNLESs you are the one umming all over the place. Or if someone you love umms a lot. In that case, I would suggest Toastmasters. Toastmasters will get that umm out of you quickly. I was regional "like" filler until Toastmasters, they got it out of me. focus on the message and not the umms of other people, and if you are umming, hit Toastmasters.

Hope this doesn't post more than once--I have tried and tried to post.


Here in Indiana--and I don't know how it is in other states--we have township trustees, who can sometimes help out with bills in a pinch, and who also have lists of resources and suggestions for career advancement.


I feel for LW1 because my family hovers right around the poverty line, too. We almost never qualify for any kind of assistance for one reason or another. If it weren't for a couple of family members who help regularly, we wouldn't be able to afford to eat every day, either. How lucky we are to be warm and fed. There will even be a few presents under the tree.


If it were me, I'd ask family for help (if they're the kind that would). I'd go to my church. Perhaps there are family or church members that need work done, or know someone who is hiring. Maybe I'd even show them the letter. I'd go to my children's school. By the time I didn't have enough to eat, maybe I'd throw out my pride entirely and write the local newspaper.


If only I lived next-door, I'd be over there with some food and Christmas candy and a couple of very cheap presents. Maybe somebody here btl could afford to help a little. This woman needs help to change things long-term, but in the meantime she needs two things--food and hope. Some presents for the kids would be nice.


One thing she doesn't need is condemnation. We don't know this woman, but there is nothing in her letter that leads me to believe this is her fault. I don't see any reason to blame her for her predicament while she's asking what she can do to change it.

If you read LW1 again, she says family members of her and her ex's have $$... NOT the ex himself. Sounds like they did have poor family/life planning--education, number of kids for their income, etc... just saying... I think she should check out the united way, etc... and dont expect family to bail you out. You made your bed. Ask for help from charities that want to help.

LW1 - I'm really sorry about your situation. nanchan offers excellent advice, and I only want to back it up by offering that re-careering yourself can be one of the best ways to pull out of a bad job situation. Talk to your local community college and see if they have financial aid options that will let you take courses for a field that seems out of reach at the moment... that could lead to a degree doing something you love, and many places offer online courses, so you could do your studies at home and be with your kids.

I will agree with the Annies about pursuing more child support from your ex in court. You can file your own papers and represent yourself, or the courts might be able to assign you legal counsel to help at little to no charge.

The courts will enter your income and debts into a computer system along with his, crank out a figure he has to pay every months, and then issue an order to his employer to cut the check and send it to you before he even sees his paycheck. Then he can't continue to cheat you by "deducting" support. I agree with Chris that your family doesn't have an obligation to help you (though it would be nice if they offered out of love and support for you), but your ex most certainly should man up for you and your kids.

LW2 - Thanks for letting us know you're a flawless orator! *rolls eyes*

A friend of mine is a member of Toastmasters. He occasionally says "um," which by your standards means he's a blithering idiot. Yet he's probably one of the smartest people I know. Saying "um" is not indicative of being uneducated or unintelligent. It's a habit, no more and no less. Yes, people can break it if they're conscious of it, but it's not a reason to come down on someone either.

LW3 - Please accept my condolences on your losses. You are right - there is no comparing the grief of losing certain people in your life because they each play a different part, and some will be closer to you than others. I hope you have people who love and support you the way you need surrounding you this holiday season.

Re: LW1, I feel for her situation, but I'm sort of wavering between the super supportive position and Chris's position. As Julie noted, her ex isn't one with money, so even if they were still together they'd likely still be struggling. Some of this may have indeed been poor planning on her part, and I fear there's been additional poor planning to get her to this point.

I'm also not sure about her career prospects -- she's been "turned down for a raise at work", which gives me a moment of hesitation about what the issue is with her work. Was she turned down because her company is strapped and can't afford to raise her salary? Or was she up for a regular, annual raise but didn't get it because she's not quite as hard-working as she claims? It's a small point that could go either way, so I'm hesitant to come down firmly in either camp.

There were times in my life where I had very little. My recommendation is for her to flat-out ask some of her family and her ex's for some short-term assistance, and then really seriously look at every single penny she spends. Everything should be up for review -- including where she lives, how much she pays for rent, her utilities, television, food, etc. She should then downsize anything that isn't essential -- food, clothing, shelter. Get back to just the basics and create a strict budget that is sustainable based on your current income. Move to a cheaper apartment closer to work and get rid of the car if you can. Really think outside the box, figure out what you can give up and use a very strict review -- sell what you don't need, don't buy anything that isn't truly essential.

And, as others have suggested, go seek these government and non-government organizations that offer assistance -- she may find she is qualified for more than she realizes.

I'm not sure she hasn't done all this already, but I'm also not sure she has, either. Some people, caught by the economic downturn, have had trouble really understanding what is an essential expense (food, clothing) and what is not (TV, cable, internet).

LW2 - here's the thing, LW2. Every single one of us has a habit or tic or idiosyncrasy that annoys the crap out of someone else. You may bite your nails or rub your temples or clean your glasses or use 5-syllable words where a 1-syllable word would do.

Here's the other thing, LW2. Society works because, unless it's an extreme situation, we PUT UP WITH those minor things that bug us, because we understand that other people are PUTTING UP WITH those minor things we do that bug them.

Let it go.

LW3, I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm also sorry that clumsy, well-meaning people have inadvertently said things that don't help. Maybe your letter will caution others, though.

Re: Gwen..."RIGHT???" Ummm, that's another, you know, good one! Right?

Re: Sheila...AMEN, Sister! You "took the words right out of my *keyboard*"!!!!

re: Mike H

I would argue that internet IS an essential.

Most job searches now happen at least at the beginning stages online. Most jobs that will pay over the poverty line (which by the way is pretty high, I remember seeing something recently that it's about %50K for a family of four, but don't have the source so don't quote me on that) will be posted online and not on the local bulletin board at the Piggly Wiggly.

Most libraries have computer labs (in fact, my local library's computer section is bigger than the area for books!) that you can use, and printers (ours will allow up to 75 black and white pages printed for free and I think 5 color per week) but they are only open limited hours. Many times you will get a request to interview and have to respond within hours, not days, so having internet access is crucial.

I do not agree with you or Chris (no lottery tickets for us today, buddy!) on the family planning issue. Who knows what has happened since they had those kids, and maybe they planned to have three or even more? It's not for us to say, and also is water under the bridge. OK, don't have any sympathy. That's BIG of you! But the lady is asking for help. She needs it, not only for herself, but for those kids. I think we all realize it's better to try to fix the current situation instead of berating a LW based on perceived choices that we have no idea about anyways.

Most women (and it's still mostly women in this situation) are also doubly hit because women are still not being paid as much as men. Yet, we are the ones who bear the lion's share of the physical and financial burdon. What we need to encourage women to do is increase their earning power at any age.

When I read posts like yours and Chris's, I think about my mom. She had many children when my dad left her. The three oldest were in universities, I was in private school, and the rest were in public schools. Mom hadn't worked fulltime outside of the home in 25 years. She took a job washing salads initally at a famous restaurant, later they put her through college and she got an advanced degree. We all knew things were tight and worked to help her. Now we take care of her full time, as she is in her 80s and is retired.

Did my mother make a mistake having all those kids? I'm sure there were people like you and Chris who tut-tutted under their breath about how stupid mom was to have those kids. I'm sure they talked to her about "family planning". But (here it is), Mom didn't have those kids thinking Dad was one day going to have a mid-loife crisis and bail. What if the LW was a WIDOW? Would that make her situation somehow more sympathetic?

As I said, it's water under the bridge at this point, let's get her taken care of for now and planning for the future.

Re: Chris

To be honest, I have to agree with you that she should have planned better, but IMO, it's more about picking a better man to be the father of her kids. Women can make such blunders when it comes to choosing who will be the father of their children that they don't take the time to really think about the situation before getting pregnant.

Granted, that's in the past, and we have to deal with the present. I agree that Christmas presents are a WANT instead of a NEED. Has she really cut down on her discretionary expenses to the bare bones? You can live without cable and a smartphone (I have neither), and I know at least Comcast has a program for low-income folks to provide internet access for families with school-aged kids. Creating a budget using a free website like LearnVest or Mint.com will help to see where expenses can be trimmed...

And yes, I agree with going to Goodwill, the Salvation Army, etc. However, not getting Christmas presents or the stuff for a fancy dinner isn't the end of the world. Being with the people you love is what Christmas is all about, not presents or a meal. Maybe it's time to get back to basics, no?

LW1-
"I'm not asking for handouts. What's a mother to do when no one is willing to help? "
What is the difference between your family helping you or some form of government assistance? It's still a "hand-out". You know what? Government or charity organisation assistance is better, because at least it is not PEOPLE YOU KNOW looking down on you and treating you like the family beggar and sometimes judging you with pinched lips - trust me, you don't want that. Not to mention that government programs are funded by the taxes YOU pay or have paid in the past, and they exist to assist hard-working, honest people going through a tough time. That would be you.

Go to your local women's centre, church and/or charity organisation and explain the situation. Even though you're above the poverty line, you may be still eligible for food stamps, food banks or other programs. Through them, there is a chance you may have access to someone who will look at your buying/cooking habits. Chances are you can save some money by changing a few habits.

I don't know how you shop, but chances are that you have a lot to learn on how to make your dollar count. I can,t share everything I've learned over the course of 40 years of adult life, but here's a crash course:

1. I find that by following the weekly specials and stocking up as much as I can afford ensures that I pay full price as rarely as possible. Sometimes it is worth it in the long run to buy on special something that is more expensive, but twice the quality. Cooking from scratch saves a LOT of money - you don't have to get into time-consuming, fancy recipes. If you go online, you can find a ton of cheap, fast, easy and healthy recipes for free.

2. Use coupons on products you already use, or that make a subsitute for something you use cheaper, or that you were willing to try at full price - if a coupon makes you spend on something you wouldn't have bought in the first place, then it's not a saving. Check the cheap bin (meat, vegetables, dented tins, slightly damaged packaging) for products "discounted for fast sale". Use the meat and vegetables right away so that there is no waste.

3. For clothing, household goods, furniture, etc., start patronising the local thrift shops, garage sales and church basement bazaars. Your local charity organisations can give you a list on non-profit thrift shops and there will be others which are privately owned. The bazaars will be announced in front of the church and on community boards - newspaper and online. Some of them have weekly vestiaires, call the church and ask. Garages sales will be advertised on telephone poles, bus stops, window stores, community boards and the classifieds in regular and community newspapers.

4. Make sure you know prices very well in Walmart and discount stores, and what is available for how much in dollar stores. What is on the shelves at Dollarama for a buck or two can be flippin' amazing - don't generalise: some of it is crap and some of it worth four times the price. People pricing at bazaars and thrift shops can't know everything and occasionally, I see something that's overpriced. In garage sales, people selling occasionally go by what they paid new and not by how much you can get it for in thrift places.

5. You have to know prices, and it's a process. Start learning. The better you know the market, the better you become at living on a shoestring. But keep in mind you're new at this and you will make some mistakes. Just learn from them and don't get discouraged.

6. As much as possible, try to stay away from what needs to be dry-cleaned. Wash she clothing before you use it and it'll be cleaner than what you buy with the tags on. The tags being on is not a guarantee that is was never worn, not to mention that how many people, perhaps without a shower for a month or a skin condition, tried it on before you did? Eeeeew. Brand new doesn't mean cleaner. As for bedbugs (a common deterrent for people to buy recycled), you can get them anywhere (including the bus), they don't make the difference between Salvation Army and Macy's.

As for Christmas gifts... You don't say how old your children are, but most children quickly do the math when they realise that buying recycled gets them twice the loot for half the price - for toys and clothing both. If you approach this with the right words ("You're getting twice as much and mommy has money left over for a food treat once in a while, what you're wearing is unique, nobody can copy you, be a trendsetter, not a follower"), they'll feel special, not slighted.

Twenty heads are better than one - join a single parents group. They will be able to share a lot of tips, contacts and good addresses on just about anything - and then there's the emotional support.

That was for the short term. Now for the long term... As for the second job, have you thought of operating something from home? Perhaps Avon or Amway products? THAT would be a way of getting some help from your family, in-laws and friends without asking for a hand-out!

Also, would retraining improve your chances of getting a better job? Check with your local unemployment centre, there may be programs available.

P.S.: If your depression is ONLY because of your money problems, medication is not going to help much while the problem persists... Taking the bull by the horn works a LOT better. Pick what is applicable to you in what the Annies, the other posters and I said, and both your situation and your mental state should start to improve. Get going and good luck!

P.P.S.: Don't pay attention to Chris. He has a habit of jumping down the throat of depressed people.

@Chris
You're at it again, aren't you? She mentioned an ex, obviously there were two paychecks once upon a time. Or are you gonna blame her for the divorce too? There is no indication that she's some kind of floozy making babies without a thought on how she'll provide for them. And even if she was - she can only plan for the future, not the past, and you slamming her is totally unproductive.

LW2-
It has nothing to do with intelligence or education, it has to do with the need for someone to collect their thoughts. Suggestions? Especially at this time of the year, why don't you go to some shelter or veteran's or child's hospital or old folks' home and donate some time - you seem to have too much of it on your hands.

@graham072442
"Hiccuping", that was funny!

Agree with nanchan that internet is really an essential these days, and not just for job applications. For a woman who needs additional education, online courses can be a way for her to attend class without having to find additional childcare. Online banking/bill-paying can save the cost of postage or gas money.

Freecycle and Craigslist are good sources for obtaining things for free, or nearly so. YouTube will show her how to do minor household repairs, saving the cost of a service call.

Frugal blogs will teach her about trying dishes from other cultures that don't rely as heavily on meet, or how to stretch the food dollar further by using cheap veggies in season, even if she's never heard of kohlrabi or pattypan squash. Garden sites can teach her to garden. She can get coupons for when she does shop retail. She can share photos of her kids for free. She can teach herself to knit or crochet and get ideas from other area moms for cheap/free things to do with kids. She can get e-newsletters on saving money, or swap coupons, if she wants, or chat with other people in frugality forums.

Just because many people limit their 'net usage to timesucks like games and jokes doesn't mean everybody does!

LW1 - I'm kind of on Mike H's page with this LW for several reasons.

It's not like they would be swimming in disposable income if they had stayed together - if her ex made so much he would contribute more to child support.

Proper family planning includes contingency plans. So many marriages end up in divorce these days that you CAN'T assume you'll be together forever. You're just as likely not to. The choice to have three children was selfish and unwise (unless they had one and twins, or triplets). But what's done is done.

She refuses to ask for help yet is bitter that no one offers it. I wouldn't offer help to anyone who complained how hard life is, especially when they had three kids (unless they were under the mistaken impression that the world needed more people!), especially if it was not a temporary problem. If she was between jobs and needed a bit to get her through, that would be one thing. But she's going to need support forever unless she makes some big changes. Maybe it's time to give custody to dad while she goes back to school, or sets herself up and fixes her budget so she can afford to eat on her current income.

She hasn't been able to get a raise or even a part time job for how long? Months, years? It could be bad luck but I wonder if there's something else going on there.

LW2 - UMM, yes, the educated are infallible and not annoying at all, ever, in any way, and have no bad or annoying habits.

LW3 - I hate this topic. Last time we had people BTL saying that a divorce could be worse than a death. And I'm sure there are people out there who felt more grief at the loss of a parent than a spouse. It doesn't matter. GRIEF IS NOT A CONTEST. I am very sorry for your loss LW3 (and everyone who has suffered a loss) but you have to recognize that this "no, I'M sadder!" thing is a coping mechanism. If someone says something well-meaning and kind to you and you react in anger because they can't possibly be as sad as you are, you're still at stage 2. No one's grief is identical but to some extent it's all the same. It's the same emotion (or range of emotions). Trust that whomever is saying that to you is saying it because they, too, have experienced sadness and grief and THEY GET IT. It may not be exactly the same. But it's not a contest. You're both allowed to be very sad and grieving.

I wouldn't offer help to anyone who complained how hard life is, especially when they had three kids (unless they were under the mistaken impression that the world needed more people!), especially if it was not a temporary problem.
***
Wow. Even if that someone had been diagnosed with, and is seeking treatment for, clinicial depression? Even if there are 3 kids who didn't ask for any of this to happen to them? Not much Christmas spirit here this week.

I do agree with you on the grief topic, Zoe. People who are hurting sometimes react in ways that they might not under less stressful circumstances, but the "that was NOTHING compared to what I'm feeling NOW" isn't helpful. It would be good for people to remember that these people who are so awful to compare the death of your relative to the loss of their cocker spaniel, or the divorce of their cheating spouse, or whatever could have seen you coming, turned around and walked away quickly to avoid having to say anything (opening things up for another common complaint!)

They're trying to do the right thing, to let you know they care about you and are sorry you're going through this, but most of us aren't very well prepared to try to offer comfort to shattered souls.

I wouldn't offer help to anyone who complained how hard life is, especially when they had three kids (unless they were under the mistaken impression that the world needed more people!), especially if it was not a temporary problem.
***
Wow. Even if that someone had been diagnosed with, and is seeking treatment for, clinicial depression? Even if there are 3 kids who didn't ask for any of this to happen to them? Not much Christmas spirit here this week.

I do agree with you on the grief topic, Zoe. People who are hurting sometimes react in ways that they might not under less stressful circumstances, but the "that was NOTHING compared to what I'm feeling NOW" isn't helpful. It would be good for people to remember that these people who are so awful to compare the death of your relative to the loss of their cocker spaniel, or the divorce of their cheating spouse, or whatever could have seen you coming, turned around and walked away quickly to avoid having to say anything (opening things up for another common complaint!)

They're trying to do the right thing, to let you know they care about you and are sorry you're going through this, but most of us aren't very well prepared to try to offer comfort to shattered souls.

I also agree with those who said that internet is pretty much essential. Even if you're not looking for a new job (which you should be LW1 - you never know what might come along), you can save money by looking for deals, browsing flyers, cheap recipes, money saving tips, etc.

You can also save money by cancelling your cable, and streaming tv and playing games to stay entertained at home. If you save more than you spend, it's worth it. That said, get the cheapest plan you can find and don't hesitate to ask for a deal. Call up a new service provider and say "I'm with ____ right now. Their prices are too high and I cannot afford it on my current salary. The most I can pay is ___/month, but I don't need the highest speed or the most bandwidth, do you have anything to offer?"

Try to explore alternatives to the products you use. Shampoo and conditioner are a waste of money - for pennies you can clean your hair with products you probably already have and that are cheap (vinegar and baking soda - seriously!) Replace sodas and any other type of drink you buy with tap water and a lime wedge. Learn how to bake your own bread and other things. When you do bake things, automatically cut out half the sugar. It'll be better for you and you'll save a few pennies.

You say you don't eat some days - can you cut down what you eat? Many of us in America/Canada eat WAY more than they should and think it's a normal portion. You should be lean anyway, especially if you're unable to afford food. If you aren't lean, try cutting down your portions by 1/3. I don't mean you should go hungry but if you're eating more than you should because you don't know what a portion size should be, you can save a lot of money by eating less.

Ask your family for help - but instead of cash handouts, ask for things that will save you money in the long run. For example, ask them if they would buy you a chest freezer. Then you can buy dented cans of tomatoes and clearance vegetables and any meat that is on sale, and make enough spaghetti sauce to last for a long time. Slice up potatoes, onions, add a can of no-name cream of something soup and frozen peas - instant casserole. Freeze it.

Buy food at bulk stores and buy foods that are nutrient rich. A few almonds and a salad might make a good lunch and cost less than a sandwich with lunch meat in it. Eat lentils and beans and rice. Eat a lot of vegetables (whatever's cheap and on sale) and eat little meat. You don't need much anyway.

If you go to a restaurant for whatever reason, immediately put half of your meal in a take-away plate, and you have a lunch for tomorrow.

Ask your family if you could eat with them a few times a week. My grandma has always said "if there's enough for us, there's enough for you!" - if you and your kids could have 3 suppers a week with various family you could save money without anyone feeling like they are giving you handouts.

Ask for a slow cooker. Buy the cheapest cuts of beef - often tough, but not once it's simmered for a day! Throw in an onion and some carrots and you've got many meals.

A large can of pea soup can be lunch for three days.

A big tub of cheap yogurt and whatever berries or fruit is in season and on sale is breakfast for a week. Throw in some granola from the bulk food store and you've got some cheap, cheap food.

Make "garbage" soup or broth from the pieces of vegetables you didn't think you could eat. Carrot ends, bruised potatoes, the outside layer of an onion, the bottom of a celery bunch, the tops of beets, the tops and innards of bell peppers - all of these things are edible! Boil them for a couple hours with some cheap stewing beef and you have many meals.

Eat a chicken? throw the carcass in a crock pot for a night and you have excellent broth for soup.

You can make dense, filling soup by boiling and blending a cheap squash and some potatoes.

Buy cheap yarn from wal-mart and knit/crochet hats, scarves and mitts for your kids.

Join a site like Listia where you can list items you don't want or need and "sell" them for credits that you can then use to "buy" items you want such as gift cards or gifts for your kids.

Account for every penny of your budget. If you know you spend $30 on gas every paycheque, buy a $30 gift card for gas when you get your cheque.

If you're crafty, ask your family to buy you jewelry making supplies or something. Sell the items to friends and coworkers or open a store on Etsy.

Join opinionoutpost - you fill out surveys for money. You don't make a lot but I make about $40/year and I don't fill out even half the survey notifications I get. Redeem that money around Christmas and there's your Christmas budget.


Just google "ways to save money" - there are a TON of ideas out there. You may be more comfortable than you think.

@MikeH
Don't be so quick to put Cable TV and the Internet in the non-essentials. Both provide extra-curricular education and a permanent research tool for kids in school and cheap entertainment for the whole family. And it may be the only thing that makes their life bearable.

Not to mention that SHE needs it for job searching and apllications. The only jobs offers that are still posted in a window are minimum wage - she ain't getting out of it with THOSE. Without Internet, looking for a decent job might as well be groping in the dark and without your glasses, as most applications are only done online now.

As for the reason why she was turned down for a raise, perhaps she just didn't present her case properly. Raises (outside of yearly ones), are only granted for very specific reasons and not because you can't make ends meet. The one time in my life where I stayed somewhere long enough to be in a position to ask for one, I was only able to get it because my duties had increased significantly. Also, her depression may have a negative impact on the quality of her work - she's so distracted over money worries that she make mistakes, she tosses and turns for hours at night and then can't get up in time in the morning, etc.

It doesn't sounds to me like she is living in uncessary luxury, but rather that, for the short term to start with, she needs to learn how to make every penny count. This is not something anyone is born knowing. I'm very good at it right now, but it took me twenty years to learn. At the age she probably is, I knew very little.

@Janie
Plenty of perfectly good men, who were perfect boyfriends while dating, and then perfect husbands and fathers for 20 years, turn into complete idiots the minute they hit middle-age. It does happen. The woman is not to blame because she is neither a telepath nor owns a crystal ball.

P.S.: Be careful what you blame others for, as you have no idea what may happen to YOU one day...

LW1: In my area, the power company has a program for people making under a certain amount of money where you get 20% off your power bills. The cut-off line to qualify is higher than for public assistance, and I qualified for this even though I didn't qualify for welfare or the state or county health care programs after my small business slowed down during this recession and I wasn't making enough to pay my bills. So you may want to check with your local power company to see if they have something like this.
When the recession hit my business hard, I decided to go through every single bill and try to lower each one somehow. I talked to my car insurance agent and was able to cut back some of my coverage. I got the exterminator (a necessity here where we have black widow spiders) to lower my bill by $5 a month. And I have my TV, internet, and phone as a bundle from a cable company. I decided to cancel the TV, but when I called them, they told me that they could give me what they called their Economy Package, which isn't advertised on their website, and my bill would be lower to keep all three services than if I canceled the TV and kept just the internet and phone. I got fewer channels, but I still got more than just the major networks, about 30 channels in all, and it allowed me to still watch a lot of shows. So call every single place you get service from and explain your situation and ask how you can lower your bills. It all adds up.
Also, my parents work at a food bank, and they don't ask anybody about their income. Anyone who comes in gets a load of canned foods and dry goods. So you can add to your staples this way.

Re: hedgehog

Sorry, I didn't finish that thought - I wouldn't OFFER it. So many people complain about being hard up that if I offered to help everyone who told me they were broke, I'd be broke myself, and I wouldn't want them to expect me to say "oh, here's fifty bucks" every time they said "I can't afford to eat today".

If such a person (friend, family) came up and ASKED me for $50 to get them through the week, and I could afford it, I would consider it (depending on my finances, my history with this person, etc etc). I'd be even more likely to buy some food or Christmas gifts on their behalf. In fact I do this every year - the only gifts I buy are Christmas gifts for the kids of friends of ours. They are very poor and have limited family so the kids don't get a lot. The parents don't label the gifts as coming from them or anything (I would be ok with it if they did).

My comment re the number of kids is just one of my personal opinions. With the world as crowded and overpopulated as it is I think it is unwise and selfish to have more than 2 kids. But I know not everyone feels that way.

LW1: Poor planning, my big toe! Some of the comments left BTL have been so cruel! My mother was in this situation with two girls back in 1980. Not only did she make just enough money to barely pay our bills, but we weren't eligible for any lunch money assistance, which was cheaper than bringing food from home. We did not go out much. We did not get clothes for fun. I remember one Christmas that was provided by others, not our mother. We never needed to eat from food banks, but my mother sure learned how to shop, and she taught us what was important (wants and needs). We were lucky to have a supportive church. She worked very hard. In the end, the only reason we got out of poverty was because my mother got married again. My mother, who was an administrative assistant in the food industry, just couldn't make enough money to support us alone. My father? Homeless. He has OCD and Impulse Control Disorder,as well as Compulsive Shopping Syndrome. Support us? He couldn't support himself.

Don't judge LW1. You don't know why she's alone. She's depressed and frustrated and embarrassed that she can't provide her kids with Christmas presents. Let's think about how we would deal with a situation like hers before we tear her apart.

re Julie and Mike - Not true making the assumption that even if the LW was still with her ex they would not be able to afford their children. In my state, which is pretty similar to most others - maybe even a little more generous - the minimum a family of 4 (mother and three children) is around $32K p/year to qualify for any assistance - including food stamps, free or reduced lunch, childcare supplementation, etc.). Assuming she makes around $35K and her ex made the same or more, they were just fine together. But when you have the strain of running two households - he still needs housing, a roof, food, clothing, etc. if they have made an arrangement outside of the courts, he could either not be paying enough in support or the cost of living in their area is high enough that it is still a struggle.

The lw does not say the age of her children, but I can easily see how she would be in such a predicament. If she has children young enough to require care while she is at work, on her salary and assuming she is only receiving a small amount of money from the ex, she would find it hard to make ends meet. I have two boys - let me tell you they can wear out clothes like nobody's business. I am constantly buying them pants between the two of them there is not one pair of Jeans that I bought at the beginning of the school year that does not have a hole in the knee. They all grow like weeds; none of their coats from last year still fits properly, meaning they all needed new winter wear this year.

The lw needs to take a very realistic look at her expenses and her budget. She needs to trim as much fat as possible... for example; get rid of cable and shop for bargain DVDs instead. Look in to low cost internet service - Comcast offers a really inexpensive internet plan (around $10 p/month) to families who meet their income requirements. Look into energy assistance program. ASK relatives for help. It is a struggle and I empathize with her.

@Zoe - I am not surprised at Chris' harshness, but I certainly am surprised at you. Contingency plan my behind. There are far more people in this world who are one paycheck away from poverty than there are people who can survive for any length of time. My ex has only recently started paying child support and what he pays is next to nothing. I am very blessed to have a good job and be able to afford to house, feed, and clothe my children- although it isn't easy and I have to be very frugal and realistic about my budget. While I do my best to save, you'd better believe that in this economy I worry what would happen if I lost my job. The threat is very real and the weight of being solely responsible of caring for three small people who are entirely dependent can be heavy. If I lost my job, I am fairly certain that even if I found work quickly, it would be a salary far less than I am currently earning. At any moment I as well as countless other people in this world could be in the exact same predicament as LW1. Certainly not what I planned at this point in my life, but life tends to ignore plans. In addition, the LW is not whining and bitter, the poor woman is overwhelmed. Only a cynic would marry with the notion that they will be divorced with small children to care for alone. "Give custody to Dad". Yes, because giving your children away to someone else to care for is always the right solution. Anyone with a modicum of maternal instinct would never make such a suggestion so flippantly.

Zoe: some great ideas! I have a few to add.

1. Spend the hour or so (yes, this does take time at the beginning, so plan on an hour) to plan ALL the meals for the house for the week for everyone. This includes breakfast lunch dinner and snacks. WRITE IT DOWN! I have a spreadsheet that I developed that has the meals in one column, the ingredients in another. I then sort the spreadshee by the ingredient column to make my shopping list. Once you do this a few weeks, you'll see you are repeating many recipes and ingredients and will learn to buy in bulk.

2. Buying in bulk is only good if you have a list, check it twice (nod to the season, sorry!) and (BIG AND HERE!!!!) STICK TO IT! No impulse purchases. No, you don't need that purple blouse or the extra Wii controller that is 50 percent off! Bulk buying is great for non-perishables such as toilet paper, paper towels, shampoo, conditioner, vitamins, cleaning supplies, canned goods, bulk dried beans (for soups, really really cheap). If you have a freezer, get your meats there as well. By the way, go to the bulk stores on weekday mornings if you can, you'll see that most of the restaurants in your area also shop there, the quality at most is outstanding.

3. take a financial course. I've written this here before, I took one last year that changed my life. It's called 'financial Peace University through Dave Ramsey. My church paid for me to go, it's a twleve week course on life management, including estate planning, budgeting etc. Even if you are poor, you can have a good life.

fantastic posts today!

@Lise, I'm sorry, but there's nothing that cable TV and the internet at home provide that can't be found at your local library, which also usually provides free internet and computers (I know this because of a nonprofit I've worked with for the very reason you mention). If she's struggling putting food on the table AND paying a cable bill, the cable bill should go. Period. Or else she *isn't* doing all she can do to make ends meet. Libraries also often provide CDs and DVDs to borrow as well as books -- and that's sufficient FREE entertainment for any adult or child who is struggling so much financially that they can't put food on the table.

I'm not unsympathetic in the least, but tough times require tough choices, too -- and we really aren't helping the LW if we don't at least acknowledge this. I really do understand that she may be doing everything she can -- but for all we know, she might not be doing everything she can, either.

And I'm not judging, honestly -- I'm just not ready to assume that there's nothing else she can't cut or reduce, because the reality for a lot of people who are struggling is that they are struggling because there are "niceties" that they've decided are "essentials". Essentials are rent, food, clothing, heat & electricity. And even electricity can be reduced if you cut back.

I've been there. I've done this. It's harder with children, of course, but if she hasn't already done this (and I'm really not saying she hasn't, I just have no evidence either way), then she needs to do this.

Same thing with the job. We have no idea why she didn't get the raise. None of this may be her fault. Some of it may be her fault. Most of it may be her fault.

We. Just. Don't. Know.

So the best advice is multi-fold: She should take a HARD look at EVERY SINGLE EXPENSE and continue ONLY the very necessary. She SHOULD ask the wealthier relatives for help. And she should take another look at government or other non-profits to get into their programs, because she's likely eligible for more than she realizes.

Yes, it's humbling, embarrassing, frustrating, saddening. Especially if one was used to a certain standard of living that is no longer within reach, at least in the short term.

But it's what one *has* to do in this situation. As unpleasant as it can be. Victim mentality won't help her, wishful thinking won't get her out of this.

And, Katie, it's not "tearing her apart" to suggest that she has to deal with this just as your mother had to deal with it, or you, or me, or any of us.

She's in a tough situation with many mouths to feed, and she needs to do something different from what she's already done, because what she's already done obviously isn't working. Or is just barely working. We don't know every aspect of her situation, so some of the commenters may think they are being sympathetic but in reality not actually offering any advice that truly helps her. Those of us who are viewed as perhaps being "harder" on her may, conversely, be offering suggestions that are the most helpful!

And the very sad thing is that too many Americans are in similar straits. Last week it was announced that nearly 1 out of every 2 Americans was in poverty or classified as "low income". So lots of people are struggling, and some don't even have the full-time job that the LW has!

Hopefully, with a combination of renewed budgeting and assistance from extended family, government, and non-profit programs, she can get stabilized enough for the short-term where maybe some longer-term solutions can be worked on.

Re: sharnee

Trust me, I'm the first to admit I have little sympathy for poor parents. It's a product of a few things, I think - the first being that I grew up very poor myself. Single, unemployed alcoholic prostitute mother, poor musician father in another town... Family helped us get by but I remember being hungry, stitching up my own clothes (in third grade I didn't go a very good job and yes I got made fun of), and not knowing what it was like to not worry about money until I was in my 20's. Despite all that I will never say I grew up in poverty or had a crappy childhood. I was loved, I never really starved, and I had shelter. Between books, and friends, and whatever tv the rabbit ears could pick up I was rarely bored. I turned out just fine.

The second thing is totally personal and selfish on my behalf and I know it - but my husband and I have decided not to have children. Because a) there are too many people on the planet and the three Rs only go so far and b) I like having disposable income and time to do stuff I want to do. Everybody wins (except my MIL but tough noogies).

The last thing is just having seen so many families being poor and tired and exhausted because they went and had three + kids. Even some nuclear families with two working parents have a hard time because they had more kids than they could afford. Sure, they get by and the kids are just fine, but I have little sympathy for them when they complain about having gotten no sleep last night or not being able to go out and or not being able to afford a new car when their old one broke down because they couldn't afford to maintain it. And can you imagine if that already-poor family split up? Is it as many as half of marriages end up in divorce? Yeah man, you HAVE to plan for that possibility. I know exactly which of us would get which cats, who gets the bird, who would stay in the apartment, how we divvy up the larger assets etc, if we split up. It's stupid not to. I also know how to get out of my building in the event of a fire and that's a lot less likely (but more deadly, I'll grant you that!)

Everyone has their own priorities and can make their own choices, but when those CHOICES lead to difficulties down the road, and not only that but they start being bitter and blaming others for not helping them deal with the consequences of those choices? That there's one of my hot buttons.

Re: sharnee

Trust me, I'm the first to admit I have little sympathy for poor parents. It's a product of a few things, I think - the first being that I grew up very poor myself. Single, unemployed alcoholic prostitute mother, poor musician father in another town... Family helped us get by but I remember being hungry, stitching up my own clothes (in third grade I didn't go a very good job and yes I got made fun of), and not knowing what it was like to not worry about money until I was in my 20's. Despite all that I will never say I grew up in poverty or had a crappy childhood. I was loved, I never really starved, and I had shelter. Between books, and friends, and whatever tv the rabbit ears could pick up I was rarely bored. I turned out just fine.

The second thing is totally personal and selfish on my behalf and I know it - but my husband and I have decided not to have children. Because a) there are too many people on the planet and the three Rs only go so far and b) I like having disposable income and time to do stuff I want to do. Everybody wins (except my MIL but tough noogies).

The last thing is just having seen so many families being poor and tired and exhausted because they went and had three + kids. Even some nuclear families with two working parents have a hard time because they had more kids than they could afford. Sure, they get by and the kids are just fine, but I have little sympathy for them when they complain about having gotten no sleep last night or not being able to go out and or not being able to afford a new car when their old one broke down because they couldn't afford to maintain it. And can you imagine if that already-poor family split up? Is it as many as half of marriages end up in divorce? Yeah man, you HAVE to plan for that possibility. I know exactly which of us would get which cats, who gets the bird, who would stay in the apartment, how we divvy up the larger assets etc, if we split up. It's stupid not to. I also know how to get out of my building in the event of a fire and that's a lot less likely (but more deadly, I'll grant you that!)

Everyone has their own priorities and can make their own choices, but when those CHOICES lead to difficulties down the road, and not only that but they start being bitter and blaming others for not helping them deal with the consequences of those choices? That there's one of my hot buttons.

Re: nanchan

Good point on the bulk stuff. Another thing - only buy bulk if you will use it ALL. Buying a huge bag of lentils is pointless if you use one cup and then they do stale in the cupboard.

A good way around that is to spend a weekend cooking. Just cook. Make and freeze breakfast burritos. WRITE DOWN HOW MANY. Many soups, freeze in smaller containers. Make bread. Use up all that bulk food you bought. Plan out EVERY meal. So you know - breakfast burritos for breakfast, squash soup for lunch, tuna casserole for dinner from the freezer, which means I need to buy a bag for carrots for snacks for the week, a tub of yogurt to go with breakfasts, and some bulk popcorn (make popcorn on the stove) for nighttime snacks.

Oops, sorry for the dp. I forgot I posted the first half of that reply!

And sharnee, come on... you know I wasn't telling her "give the kids to their dad right now even if he's a violent alcoholic!" It was a SUGGESTION (I notice you forgot the "maybe" that preceded that quote), as possible way that she could get back to school to make more money to give her children a better life and make it through without starving to death. Presumably he's not a bad guy and loves them too, right? Is it that horrible an idea that they could live their father for a couple years while mom gets back on her feet? I guess it's as stupid as planning for the worst while hoping the best...

Re: nanchan

The internet isn't necessarily a necessity, especially since you can access it through most public libraries for free...at least that's been the case for every town I've lived in for the past 10 years. Plus, gmail, hotmail and yahoo all offer free email accounts, so that is a viable option for someone.

Re: Roger

I cannot agree with you more. Too many people in the U.S. have gotten into trouble over the last decade because we have forgotten the differences between wants and needs. I need decent food, clothes, shelter, warmth, and safety. I want cable TV, new iPhone, new clothes, new car, etc. . . But it may not be as easy for her to just go to the court and have her child support raised. The father may not have any more income to give. It seems as though this lady is not very well educated and I am willing to bet the father isn't in any better a situation. I have a good friend who barely made rent each month because of the child support he pays faithfully because he loves his daughter, yet the mother wants more and more. This piece of work tried to go after my friend's new wife's income after they married (they have two of their own children). The wife is not responsible for raising that daughter financially but she tried it anyway. But the courts have rightly determined that he doesn't have any more to give and have ordered her to stop with the incessant demands until he gets a new job or a raise. These are tough times all around for folks. There has been a lot of good advice given. I hope the LW can find some relief. I just hope more folks realize that most fathers are not deadbeat dads and aren't giving more for their children's care because they don't have more to give.

Re: Lise Brouillette

Nope, I can safely say that I will never be left destitute with three kids to provide. I got my education and fantastic career in a field where there are always job opportunties all over the country. I am also both blissfully single and childfree and have no desire to have that change. When I DID date, I paid attention to the red flags that every woman should look out for and got out before things got horrible...and I followed Gwen Guthrie's sage advice: "You got to have a J. O. B. if you want to be with me" and "no romance without finance." I don't tolerate freeloaders, nor do I ever allow myself to be in a position of not being able to handle things on my own. It's a partnership where both parties need to carry their own weight.

Re: Janie (& Mike H)

Internet is less a necessity than food and heat, but it's in that grey zone of things that cost money but can save you money if you use it right (like a costco membership or a high-rewards credit card, come to think of it).

I've saved a lot of money by just browsing the internet for unrelated things. That's how I found out I could make my own soap. How I could use baking soda and vinegar instead of shampoo and conditioner. I've come across other things I can't remember right now. I've found sales and discounts I never would have known about otherwise. I can research prices and reviews before I buy anything. When I learn how to make things (crafts, knitted items, whatever) I need the computer right in front of me because my memory is the pits. Sure you CAN do all that at the library, but you probably won't have time to. My mom uses the public library for internet and she will often send me a half finished e-mail with a note "ran out of time, will send the rest tomorrow".

Plus, keeping abreast of job opportunities and e-mail necessitates a home connection. Writing a potential employer back two days later is not acceptable if you really want that job.

LW1 should make a list of ways she can save money using the internet, and actually make a note of it when she does. Then she can decide for herself if that money would be better spent on something else.

Re: Mike H
MikeH, as nanchan pointed out, yes the local library has Internet access, but the hours are limited and if she's not able to respond to an interview request within hours, she may have missed the boat. Not an option. Internet cafes cost, more than the cheap alternative provider Sharnee suggests. And she already has one job plus three kids, her time to go somewhere outside the home to use some computer will be very limited. And then, as hedgehog mentions, she can even get online classes that could increase her salary capabilities. Not very long ago, Internet USED to be a non-essential. Not anymore.

Cable is another matter, some people can live without it, some people can't. However, multi-service providers often offer bundles when you take Cable/Internet/phone all with them, which wake the cost of one the three not worth going without. She should look into that.

Re: Janie

Give me a minute while I go get my sunglasses.... I'm being blinded by the bright light of your perfection. I guess you are too, for all this wonderment has made you quite smug. I would use the Diana line and tell you don't breed, but you've already decided on just that.

And there are other things that could befall you besides "left destitute with three kids to provide"... I'll not wish any of them upon you, but it is a fact that you exhibit ZERO compassion. And a Merry Christmas to you too.

Janie? Sweetie pie?

If you have access to the internet and email on your smartphone, you THEREFORE HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET!

I didn't tell the LW HOW to get that access, just have it! You have to be able to respond to email.

When I didn't have cable/home internet, I made a deal with my cell phone provider for internet access. Clear provides internet only access for $30 a month including packages slightly higher for 4G access.

read posts before you slam people.... I mentioned the library in mine.

Happy holidays1

Re: nanchan

Janie mentioned earlier that she didn't have a smartphone. I think she was saying that you can live comfortably without internet in your home if you really want, whereas you can't really do so without clothes or food. I don't really agree but it's not a completely backwards notion. If I had to choose between just about any necessity and the internet I know which one I'd pick...

Maybe I missed a nuance or something but you guys are being pretty hard on Janie. It is okay to be proud of the choices you've made if you feel they are good ones. I often rejoice in the knowledge that if I want to go to see a movie right now, or buy a new tv tomorrow, or go to vegas for a weekend, I totally can because I don't have kids and I can afford it. Just as someone else might rejoice in the fact that their kid did great in a school play or learned a new word and that's more important to them than a new purse. I tend to hear more about the latter than the former in my daily life, come to think of it. And all of it is totally fine as long as everyone is happy, good people.

Zoe: you and I do a lot of things the same.

When my daughter was little, we would make all the food for the week, inluding portioning off cereal baggies for the car, her lunches (I learned most sandwhiches freeze brilliantly and thaw un-refrigerated to fresh if you leave off the condiments), all our meals (again frozen in portions) every weekend. We still do the main meals every Saturday and it's a tradition we both cherish, because we combine it with TV show marathons (we now have a DVR but back then, we'd borrow from the library) or she and I would read allow to each other in the kitchen (she still does that sometimes too). During times we had money, we would do the weekly cooking and then go out to lunch.

Even in hard times, we tried to do one experimental recipe a week: and again the internet is a great tool to find new ideas. There are so many sites out there like allrecipes and just put in the ingredients you have and go to town.

Another idea I haven't seen here yet, and am just thinking about honestly, is working with another single mom to do some of this stuff. At one point, my best friend was going through a horrible divorce: I wrote her divorce docs for her (I come from a legal background, write pretty well and enjoy it) in exchange for her doing my yard work for two months (I HATE yard work, she loves it, has all the tools). We also had an open door policy about our kids (same age). If one adult was home and the other needed daycare, just drop the kid off.

Two of my single mom friends and I at one point shared one membership to costco, we'd go every other sunday after church and split the goods we bought... kind of like a non-official co-op.

One year, I made less than $20K, yet lived in one of the most affluent areas in my state, my daughter went to the best school and we still had a good life. She may have worn hand me downs, and most of her presents were clothes (although her aunts and uncles DID pick up the slack on presents... and how!) but she got through it, and she did it SMART! A few weeks ago, I gave her some money and told her she had to make dinner out of it. She gave me back change on a $5, and that included beef, vegetable, and soup for 3 people. How? Her words: "I find if I get to the market early, I get the best cuts of meat and it helps to be friends with the butcher".

YES! I've said this a thousand times here (sorry, proud mom moment) but she starts college in two weeks. No loans. She's going on scholarships and a tiny grant. very very little help from me.

when my friends asked my what I did right last week, I said, I give her lots of love, and she's a part of the process. I hope the LW loops her kids in as well. They can be a big part of your team if you let them be and encourage their ideas.

Re: nanchan

To be perfectly honest I don't practice a lot of what I preach. I eat out way too much (curse you, delicious AYCE sushi!) But I try! Sometimes saving money is so easy that you don't even notice the change.

Love your story about your daughter. Just goes to show that with enough love even if everything isn't perfect all the time, doesn't mean it won't turn out wonderfully.

@Zoe - you come on. You do sound self-righteous, and yes assinine. Of course people plan, no one said they shouldn't. But if you plan your marriage as if you intend to get divorced than you certainly should not have children with that person. Children are a 24 year commitment (including college years).... so most people who decide to get married and have children do so with the intent of having a lasting marriage. Good lord, you are a very sad a product of our times if you see marriage otherwise. Also, you are very wise to know how selfish you sound to say, "I grew up poor so I have no sympathy for poor parents". That is bassackwards thinking if I have ever heard it. We are not talking about parents who are addicts or criminals or so self-centered that they would rather be starving artists than to feed their families. We are talking about people who are doing all they can to focus on raising their families on what they have. Not everyone will make six figures no matter how hard they try. Most won't even get near it on a single income. Those of us who come close should be thankful because we have been fortunate and also understand that with the best plans and intentions anyone one of us could fall in to dire straights - including you and your birds. I used to read your posts and think you were wise beyond your years. Today, you are really showing your youth.

PS. - You would not understand the bond between a mother and child. Before your post about your upbringing I thought you were too young to understand. But now I understand that given your circumstances, you did not seem to have that intense bond that many mothers have with their children. It is more than emotional, it is physiological for both mother and child. I would no sooner consider letting someone take my children than I would let someone saw off my arm. I would find a way to support them no matter what.

LW2 -- I sure hope you feel a whole lot better getting that off of your chest about your "umm" pet peeve. Want to know what mine is? Here are two:

1) Letter writers who don't have an actual question and simply want to rant about something.
2) Advice columnists who print such letters.

Seriously, the Annies didn't have anything better in their mailbox?

Re: sharnee

Meh, I like I said, I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I'm not expecting divorce, but nor am I expecting a zombie apocalypse. I still have a tub full of canned goods, batteries, flashlights and water, though (working on getting a crossbow - just kidding). And I still have a credit card in my own name and I know I'd take the bird. I really don't seem the harm in that, nor is it indicative that I'm going to divorce in a few months - just as the guy with the excellent insurance coverage isn't necessarily more likely to have his house burn down tomorrow. But if it did happen he'd be better off than the guy who said "my house'll never burn down, I don't need smoke alarms!" - get my meaning?

You might understand my point a bit better if you didn't keep misquoting me, but anyway, like I said - I know not everyone feels as I do and that's totally okay. Don't worry about it so much... you be the motherly, loving type, and I'll do my thing. It'll all be OK.

You're right, I'm probably not as emotionally bonded to my parents as others are to theirs. I love them both; I moved back and forth between them depending on which one could afford to have me or was more stable. Sometimes I lived with my grandparents. Sometimes it was easier than others, but I don't remember feeling more or less love for my mother when I moved in with my dad, and vice versa. They both loved me, but sometimes one was more financially stable than the other. I'm glad my mother let me go to my dad when she did; I don't think I'd have been better off living in a string of horrid basement apartments while she tried to get her life together.

Different strokes, dude. As you say: "I would find a way to support them no matter what" - LW1 may feel that way as well, and if she does, that's what she'll do. She and her kids will probably be just fine.

This talk of LW1's lack of planning and foresight for the future is one of the most judgmental and offensive I've seen debated here. I'd be willing to bet that as sad and depressed as this mother is, she wouldn't give up a single one of her children in order to have more.
That aside - where the eff is your compassion? It's Christmas! It's a really crappy economy and lots of people are struggling like few of us have ever had to in our lives. I guess most of you haven't had that struggle and can stand on your high horse looking down on this poor woman desperately trying to make it.
And my mother was one of those who had 3 children (all 3 planned), was divorced (not planned), and had no money. She also suffered from stress, depression, anxiety - all because she was constantly trying to figure out how to make it. And you know what? Because there are people out there that actually have concern for others and think a plan of attack is far more helpful than a judgmental attack , she got job training and a fantastic job that she has held for the past 25 years, getting ready to retire from and has a very nice savings. Who knows though, maybe she'd be in a way better place if Chris had been there to give her a pep talk.
Damn, this really pisses me off.
And Roger - yea, gifts are wants, not needs. I'd be willing to bet that this mother knows that already. Doesn't mean she can't wish for even something small to give her kids. Is this what growing up in a wealthy country does to people?

@Lise Brouillette: brilliantly said in your reply to little miss Janie!
You know what God does when you make plans, Janie? He laughs.
You might have a brilliant career - can be taken from you. You could have looks - can be taken from you. There is nothing that you have today that you cannot lose in a heartbeat. There is more I'd like to say but I recognize it would be rather nasty, but your self-righteousness and sanctimonious attitude brings out the worst in me. You need to learn a little humility...ang gratefulness, along with some generosity, at least of spirit.

That God fellow sounds like a jerk. Here I was thinking planning for the future was a good thing!

Re: hedgehog
I never heard of freecycle! THANK YOU!!!!

@Lise, there are few companies that ONLY request interviews via email. If you list a phone number as your contact, they will do business with you on the phone. Every company still has a phone line or two.

And her problem isn't that she's unemployed, so the job hunt may not be the answer at all. She may be underemployed, or she may not know how to budget.

If giving up the internet and cable frees up enough money in her monthly budget to get back on an even keel, then that's the right answer -- and if she wants to seek additional or other employment, there are absolutely ways to do that without home internet. Plenty of people are doing that, even today.

I think you're kind of nitpicking and missing my larger point. But, if it's a question of not having food or not having internet, she ought to give up the internet. (If thats even the issue, which I've always acknowledge none of us knows).

Tough choices are just that -- tough! If it were easy, everyone would do it.

Re: nanchan
"What if the LW was a WIDOW? Would that make her situation somehow more sympathetic?"
No, that would make her LESS sympathetic. Death of a sole (or even primary) breadwinner can and MUST be insured against. That is the whole purpose of life insurance. Failure to do so would make the LW less sympathetic.
I agree that placing blame for LW's situation is water under the bridge, but the fact is she did NOT plan for the possibility of her marraige breaking up when she had 3 children. IMHO no woman should have children without first having job skills in place no matter how solid her marraige is. Divorce and deaths do occur.

I got my education and fantastic career in a field where there are always job opportunties all over the country.
***
So did a lot of other people, Janie, only to find those opportunities went abroad. The company I am at used to employ more than 500 people; at least 3 entire departments, including IT, have been outsourced. We now have fewer than half of what we did when I first came here.

You should also hope that not everyone is as smug as you are about not having kids. If everyone followed your sterling example, you would someday find yourself wanting doctors, dentists, nurses, aides, X-ray techs, physical therapists, occupational therapists, accountants, lawyers, and others to take the place of your contemporaries who retire. Or become disabled. Or die.

Re: hedgehog

I like think that people like me who choose not to have kids make up for people who have more than two. Maybe someday the world population will decline... As it is I don't think we're at any risk of running out of people.

Hey, just a thought, could LW1 ask for a pay cut so she falls just under the poverty line and could therefore qualify for government assistance?

RE: planning, judging, etc. -- As Mike H has pointed out -- we do not know this woman's full situation. So, is it possible that poor (or lack of) planning and/or irresponsibility on her part is a big reason for the mess she's in? Certainly! Is it equally possible that she was totally responsible, had what should have been a decent plan, and then those plans went awry through no fault of her own? Of course! The reality is probably somewhere in between the two.

I can see why LW1 rubbed some people the wrong way. She's very busy bemoaning her situation and pointing out how various and sundry OTHER PEOPLE could improve her situation (family members could lend a hand, her boss could have given her that raise, etc.), but on the other hand, she's not looking for hand outs. Well, as others have noted, whether you ASK for help or whether it is given without your requesting it, either way, it's a hand out. And there's nothing wrong with accepting help when you need it. But there IS something wrong with EXPECTING help for which you refuse to ask and then complaining that no one is helping.

I used to be a reporter at a small daily newspaper in a small town in the Midwest. I was writing a story about teen pregnancy, and I was trying to get lots of different "types" of teen mothers into the story. One of the most depressing and eye-opening things for me was meeting several teen-age girls who had grown up on welfare and whose mothers TOLD them to get pregnant for the welfare check. These girls were third, fourth and fifth generation welfare, and their mothers told them to get pregnant, because that's how to get money "for nothing." I was 22 at the time and not much older than these girls. I couldn't imagine anyone being so short-sighted as to see babies as paychecks. I couldn't imagine anyone not getting the fact that those babies were going to cost a whole lot more than the welfare check was going to cover. And then they can't figure out why their lives are miserable, why they never have enough money, etc. It's hard to feel a lot of compassion for that. I'm not suggesting that is the LW's situation (clearly it isn't, since she specifically says she doesn't qualify for government assistance). I'm just saying that you see enough people having babies for the wrong reasons or for no reason (in other words, unplanned), and you start to get just a tad jaded on this subject.

LW 1 - My heart goes out to you. I am so sorry for your situation and truly hope things get better for you and your children. Please do not give up hope as you never know what tomorrow will bring. In my neighborhood I hear a lot of stories of church members helping w/food, even to repair heating units. For the food these churches have helped those even not in their congregation (just from word of mouth). This is possibly one option to help you through the holidays. If you are reading this, please know I care about you and your family. Do not give up!

LW2 reminds me of a humorous radio contest I heard about a decade back. The DJ would throw out a random subject at the caller (easy things like Recycling, Holiday traditions, Comic films, etc.) , and the caller had to speak about the subject for a short time (I think it was 30 seconds or 45 seconds, something like that) WITHOUT using "filler sounds" like "um" and without pausing for more than 2 seconds, in order to win the prize.

They ran the contest for a week, taking about 100 callers over that period, and NOBODY was able to win. Most people blew it within the first 15 seconds. I think there was one person who got up to 5 seconds before the time limit before breaking down, he paused just a bit too long trying to think of a closing statement.

@lisa: That's really sad. These teen moms you talk about, they actually take it a step further. After they get pregnant, they apply for the welfare and then they foist their kids off on someone else to raise (a friend, relative, or grandparent), and continue to collect the government check. A female friend of mine is currently raising the child of exactly such a deadbeat mom, in addition to her own three children, who had the same plan of "getting pregnant for the check."

@Paul W -- You see enough stories like that, and it's easy to forget that not everyone in this situation is like that. On the flipside, my paternal grandfather died when my father was 12 years old. He knew he wasn't going to live forever, but apparently he hadn't "planned" on dying that young. He left his wife and three children (my dad being the oldest of them) without a will. I'm unclear on to what degree he was insured, but basically, my grandmother suddenly found herself a single mom of three, and since this was back in the day, she had never worked outside the home and had no real job skills to speak of. But she could cook up a storm, so she launched a catering business. They never had much, but they didn't go hungry. I would say the big difference between my grandmother and the LW is that some of the family members who were better off DID help her -- part of that may be because it was a death instead of a divorce (LW1's ex's family may well think the divorce was her fault, or there may be other divorce-related hard feelings).

And of course, the thing to remember, even in cases where clearly the mother and/or father have acted irresponsibly, it's not the CHILDREN's fault that they were born to numbskulls, and they do not deserve to be punished for having irresponsible parents.

Zoe, it's a nice thought, that people not having kids are balanced out by those having kids, but I don't think it's likely; -- from what I'd read (admittedly a few years ago) the overpopulation is primarily abroad, not in the U.S. Your scenario will work if we have large numbers of children in Africa, for instance, studying medicine, auto repair, hair cutting, dentistry, and then leaving their homes to practice here.

And you don't even have to reproduce, if overpopulation is your beef -- there are foster children and others needing forever homes. here and abroad.

I am NOT saying everyone should parent. I am saying, though, that people who are smug that they have planned their lives to NOT have kids and holding this up as the way to prevent financial problems (as Janie did) are thinking very short-sightedly. A child-free society will eventually die out.

Re: Mike H
Mike, that's simply not true, and it must be a long time since you've looked for a job if you think that. All the CVs I send include my phone number - home AND cell. What few interviews I got the past two years were ALL summoned by e-mail, often at a few hours' notice.

I agree that Internet comes after shelter, food and clothing for her children, but only a breath after. She needs to find other ways to save money, not that. I'm sure if I had her in front of me, I could teach her to live a lot better on the exact same money she has now. There are others who could teach her, she needs to find them rather than cut herself from something that she really does need. As others have pointed out, the Internet can be a huge money-saver, well worth the expense.

@Lisa
"I can see why LW1 rubbed some people the wrong way. She's very busy bemoaning her situation and pointing out how various and sundry OTHER PEOPLE could improve her situation"
Yeah, and I was kind of expecting that. As for me, I'll cut her some slack. Jane in Lynn Reid Banks' "The L-Shaped Room" says, "You can multiply by ten the solitude is being alone at Christmas compared to other times". In the same vein, it's ten times as hard to see people come out of nice stores with big holiday-print bags full of stuff, when you don't have food on the table and you have no money to buy your own kids any presents.

Of course, presents are not "needs"... perhaps slightly less for the children, although I wouldn't dismiss their pain at having nothing to answer when their school buddies ask what they got. But giving presents to her children IS a need for their mother.

One of the things that absolutely breaks my heart is the idea of someone going to bed hungry. The tale that I can't stand to read because it makes me sob is the Little Match Girl. I must have starved in a past life. Must be why I stock up when I can. I really wish I had the money to be a philanthropist.

@Kristen
I sure knows what happen to the best laid-out plans - LIFE. Sure is what happened to all of mine so far!

@ Kristen

"Because there are people out there that actually have concern for others and think a plan of attack is far more helpful than a judgmental attack..."

I presented one possible interpretation of LW1's situation (and wasn't judging thank you very much) and it sparked a VERY interesting debate BTL. While I marvel at your holiday spirit and good will toward man, I have to ask you: how productive is it to just keep giving people handouts without any "plan of attack" as you put it? The LW is clearly miffed because her well off relatives aren't bending over backwards to give her money and things that she very clearly thinks she'd entitled to. She makes not mention whatsoever about what SHE'S doing to better her situation (other than popping antidepressants like candy.) Poor planning or not, simply giving handouts is not a solution, it's a temporary bandaide at best.

Re: Chris

I didn't get the feeling she though she was "entitled"... just that she found it hard to watch her relatives ignore her situation although they're fully aware of it. Should they help, as nanchan's family and Lisa's mom's did? Definitely. Is it owed? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt like hell that they leave her to flounder when they could well afford to "lend" a bit of a hand - like nanchan and Lisa's Mom's families.

And yes, hand-outs are always a temporary bandaid... they don't teach the poor man to fish, they only give him a fish. But, until he has learned to fish, he needs the hand-out fish! I think I made quite a few suggestions in my long post that didn't involve hand-outs.

@hedgehog post #73
I was going to say all that but you beat me to it. Couldn't agree more, of course. Good post!

Re: hedgehog

True - we're actually in a decline here in Canada, I think, with immigrants picking up the slack through immigrations (fine with me - I just wish we had more respect for their professions and training but I guess it's hard to know if they have the same standards). It's still a world problem, though. I think we will need to suffer a decline in services if we ever want to get a handle on the population. Otherwise it will continue to grow until we go extinct. If we underbreed we just might make it. If we keeping overbreeding we will not. That - or a good plague!

I considered adoption many times and ruled it out because of cost, and because honestly I don't want to - at this stage - be a parent. If that maternal urge ever kicks in, that's probably what I'd do. Lots of babies out there needing homes!

I think you may also be interpreting Janie's response in a different way from what she intended. It's hard to tell without body language of course. But there are definitely times when I've seen screaming children, or had friends say they're stuck home again with the kids, or whatever - and my husband and I will say "man, I'm so happy we don't have kids!" And it's not from feeling smug, or being down on kids or parenting, or even from never wanting children (not so long ago he did and I was considering it). It was just at that moment not feeling the stress or responsibility that comes with being a caretaker. I imagine people without pets feel the same way knowing they can get up and go without finding someone to feed their fish or whatever.

Honestly when I read Janie's response I just saw someone who is happy with their life and the choices they've made, and who mentioned this ONLY because her situation was sort of brought up by Lise. I think that parents tend to think that people who do not want children are somehow insulting their lifestyle or their children, because when a parent asks me "are you planning on having kids?" and I say "no", they sometimes get indignant and act offended, whereas the childless (obviously), far less so. But that's no the case at all - at least, not for me - it's a personal choice. I don't care for parenthood, but I'm not down on someone who does. I don't think people should have more than 2 kids. But the friends whose kids we send gifts to each year - there's three of em and I love those kids. Opinions are just that, and often they are flexible, and don't forget - you're getting a snapshot of someone's opinion/lifestyle. For example, sharnee fixated on it when I said that I didn't have that much sympathy for poor parents because I grew up exactly that way and I totally survived - but that doesn't mean I go around sneering at and kicking poor people. I still feel bad for them and wish the best for everyone, but there are some things I feel really strongly about and others less so - there are only so many causes that can get a person up in arms and single moms with three kids struggling to make it work isn't one of them for me. Probably because not that much of it is beyond their control, like, say, Alzheimers, abused animals, AIDS babies in Africa, slave trade, which I'm MUCH more passionate about.

Anyway I'm wayyy off on a tangent here. I had something to do but I've forgotten what... but hey if I want to have cookies for dinner and watch tv till 3 am I can totally do that because I have no kids! All in jest, of course! I say this is I keep pulling my bird away from my buttons that she is destroying and actually I have to go make her her dinner.

Re: Lise

Her family may not know how bad she is right now. Or maybe they do and are waiting for her to ask. I would never offer someone money for fear of insulting them unless it was a weird situation or an emergency. I have many family members who would give me money in a heartbeat if they knew I needed it because I asked for it. Or her family may not be as well off as she thinks they are. Or they've given her money before and they don't want to anymore.

She CLEARLY feels entitled if she feels they should just give her money instead of her feeling like she should ask for it. I think a lot of the responses BTL would be different if they thought that a) LW1 was doing more to try to improve her situation and b) she'd asked for help and her family had said no.

Okay, bird food time for reals now.

Re: sharnee I agree that I would fight for my kids but if I were homeless and their Dad had a home there is no way I would not give them to him. King Solomon would certainly agree.
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I am amazed - AMAZED - that one poster was attacked for planning her future, following through and enjoying her decisions. GOD is going to get her???? I gotta agree with...this god guy seems like a jerk? What are some of you teaching your children - don't plan for your future? I think some BTL aren't please with someone who is enjoying their life - nothing to give advice about. Let's give a thumbs-up to someone who DID what we all preach about.

Explore all the grocery stores in your area. We have two stores that discount meat when it is at the Sell-by-date. Especially at the end of the month. We also have day old bread stores, where a loaf of bread is .99 cents. If you can find an extra freezer to store extra finds. Even used apllicances. Been there, done it, open up to ideas and explore. I have found that the store that says it's the cheapest, may not a true statement.

Re: sharnee I agree that I would fight for my kids but if I were homeless and their Dad had a home there is no way I would not give them to him. King Solomon would certainly agree.
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I am amazed - AMAZED - that one poster was attacked for planning her future, following through and enjoying her decisions. GOD is going to get her???? I gotta agree with...this god guy seems like a jerk? What are some of you teaching your children - don't plan for your future? I think some BTL aren't please with someone who is enjoying their life - nothing to give advice about. Let's give a thumbs-up to someone who DID what we all preach about.

@Lise, I don't know what jobs you were looking for, but of the friends and family of mine who have been job hunting just in the past few months -- and for myself, I job hunted only 3 years ago -- email was not required for communication.

Moreover, I've hired for two positions in the last two years (and we're not a small or backwards organization by any stretch), and email was not required to set up interviews. I think you're stretching it a bit.

Email is not required to find jobs; people without email are finding jobs every day.

And, regardless, she has a full-time job; her problem isn't caused by joblessness. My big picture point still stands as well.

@Lise, by the way -- they could have only "summoned you by email" if you had listed an email and a phone number. What do you think would have happened if you didn't list an email? They would have just phoned you! :-)

@Zoe, et al -- I'm not saying the internet can't be useful in helping her find ways to save money. But that internet is available at a public library for free, along with all sorts of other entertainment.

Bundle packages for cable and internet and phone can still cost close to $100/month. Or more. $100/month can mean a LOT of food on the table if you shop carefully. And when you can get entertainment and internet for free at the library, that's the kind of sacrifice and planning and adjustment that you MAKE when you are struggling with money and don't see any other options.

I'm not some 1 percenter looking down on this woman. I'm someone who has paid my own way since I turned 18, and who had several years in which ramen noodles and boxed mac & cheese were the only things keeping me alive. And I had to share a 3 bedroom apartment with 6 roommates just to make rent. And I walked or took the bus everywhere because I couldn't afford a car.

That was a long time ago, now, but I have *never* forgotten those years -- when you have to be acutely aware of every penny you have in the bank, you figure out how to budget, and you jettison *everything* that isn't essential. Entertainment? You don't go to the movie theater, you go to the free movies at the library or the public park. You go to the museum on the Tuesday night where admission is free from 8pm-10pm. Food? You clip coupons and plan meals carefully and skip soda and just drink tap water. You get the most basic phone plan you can. You turn off lights religiously and you skip tv or using the stereo and you keep the heat low and wear sweaters or you go out to the mall just to sit in the heat for a few hours in the winter.

Been there. Done that.

And after living through it, I *know* that there are plenty of people out there struggling and yet they have *not* stripped down their lifestyles just to the *true* essentials.

It's a hard adjustment, and it's hard to make those choices. More inconvenient to go to the library for internet? Big whoop! That's what you *do* when you don't have enough money to make ends meet!!!

And let's not get hung up on the "internet" specifically. I'm just using the internet as a common example. Which obviously struck a nerve! (Probably because we on Creators are an internet-based community!)

@Penny - agreed that there are some circumstances where a mother would be showing her love for her children by letting someone else take them... but only in the direst of circumstances. My response was more directed to the flippancy of Zoe's suggestion - as if it is that simple for a mother to hand her children over because she is struggling financially. Quite frankly, if this father had sympathy for the plight of his children he would be stepping up more than he is unless the LW is exaggerating.

@Zoe- I respect peoples choices - whether to have no children or to have a zillion, provided that they do not intentionally bring a large number of children for others to support (either via government assistance or people who repeatedly have children put them all in the adoption and foster care systems). What really irks me are statements, such as "in divorce these days that you CAN'T assume you'll be together forever. You're just as likely not to. The choice to have three children was selfish and unwise (unless they had one and twins, or triplets). " If you want others to respect your decision to not procreate, you cannot play the role of procreation nazi and tell people how many children they can have. That pendulum swings both ways.

@Zoe
"Her family may not know how bad she is right now. "
Perhaps not. Since she said they are aware of how hard things are for her, I assumed that they did, but it is true that they may not know the nitty gritty detail of it. There is a difference between struggling and not eating every day.

"Or maybe they do and are waiting for her to ask. I would never offer someone money for fear of insulting them"
There is that. Offering money can be tricky. Even offering help can be tricky.

"She CLEARLY feels entitled"'
Not to my eyes. Read the first paragraph of my post #76 to Chris - don't want to take extra space for nothing repeating it here.

" I think a lot of the responses BTL would be different if they thought that a) LW1 was doing more to try to improve her situation and b) she'd asked for help and her family had said no."
Ah... There are always people for whom the poor never do enough to get out of it and who are always to blame for their predicament.

"and my husband and I will say "man, I'm so happy we don't have kids!""
That does not at all come across as smug. In fact, I'm pretty relieved myself that my job is done, so I know the feeling.

"Nope, I can safely say that I will never be left destitute with three kids to provide. I got my education and fantastic career in a field where there are always job opportunties all over the country."
That little brag sure did come across as smug to me - as in, lookit, lookit, lookit, it sure won't happen to ME-E-E-E-E! (beat chest, happy dance)

And it's mistaken. Nobody can ever be sure their "fantastic" career will not be outsourced like so many others have been. Or that the market won't tank, like many others did. Or that she won't have a accident tomorrow leaving her unable to work and dependent on others for the rest of her life. Or (insert catastrophe) - nobody knows the future.

Just as she can't be sure she won't ever fall prey to some sociopathic master con-artist - these people lie very well (even under lie-detectors) because they feel no guilt and so their body doesn't betray them. As much as she's on the look-out for red flags, Miss Goody-Two-Shoes does not have mind-reading software in her head and she can't see red flags that aren't being put out.

Re: Mike H

Or perhaps they would have phoned the next person WITH a stated e-mail. Not to mention that they would find it strange that I send a CV through e-mail and then refuse to give them an e-mail address. Employers can be weird that way.

And yesm, bundles can cost 100$/month, but that doesn't mean they have to. Sharnee mentioned Comcast at 10$/month and there will be others.

Mike H.: meaning no disrespect, Mike, but you don't understand what a woman with three children to feed is going through.

Living on ramen with a bunch of roommates does not equate to the stress that a woman on her own who has to feed not only herself but THREE additional children.

Two weeks ago, you told me I couldn't possibly know what a gay person would think because I am not gay.

You can't possibly know what a woman with three children to feed is going through because 1) you are not a woman and 2) you are not a parent.

Before you go making blanket statements about how you "get it" and how you aren't some one percenter, maybe you should remember a page from your own book and realize, you just don't get it.

And you never will.

erratum - or perhaps they would have e-mailed the next person

LW1: I agree that she needs to learn how to live on nothing, and it's not clear from the letter whether she has learned that or not. I had a very eye-opening conversation with my mother recently where she commented that $30/hr "isn't much" to live on, and she was astonished that my bf and I are living on far less (she knew what I was making, but I guess had never quite put the pieces together until that moment). "Till Debt Do Us Part" is a Canadian TV show about couples suffering marital problems due to financial issues and debt. 9 shows out of 10, the couples make excellent salaries, but spend like idiots and treat credit cards like free money, then bemoan their piles of debt.

Point being, it could well be that she doesn't know how to "live poor."

As for the comment some made that her ex-husband probably doesn't have money either, else he'd be paying more child support- not so. My bf's parents divorced when he was a toddler, and as he grew up, his father (who had standard every-other-weekend custody) became very well off and CEO of a corporation, while his mother (and he and his sister) lived in poverty. Father paid child support, but much of his income was "hidden" in stocks, investments, etc., so he only paid a fraction of what he may have had to otherwise. He's a hard man to sympathize with, even understanding that mom couldn't and can't manage money to save her life (she managed to blow a very sizeable inheritance over the course of a couple of years, then lost the house) and he was well aware of it. He probably thought increasing his support payments would be throwing good money after bad. He would buy clothing, etc., for the kids, and wanted full custody, but the kids didn't want to move and he worked long hours. So the situation went.

It's easy to say what people should do and the choices they should make, but hindsight is 20/20, and life, like the custody situation of my bf as a child, can be complex. Knowing their situation, it's hard to say what his parents "should have" done, though both are very flawed people to be sure.

Regarding those who have announced that they will never be in this situation because they never plan to have kids- I support that. I really do. It's your life. BUT I hope your tubes are tied, because as another acquaintance of mine discovered, there's no such thing as 100% birth control, and "accidents" can happen to the most conscientious people.

Finally, Zoe: I actually get what you're saying, though it does sound grim. I feel everyone should be in a position to support themselves if they have to. You mention the possibility of divorce. Perhaps others here would find it easier to swallow in terms of ensuring you can get by if your spouse were to die suddenly. I deeply love my man now, but I have no idea if he'll turn into a snake in the grass in 10 years and we'll split up.

Re: Mike H

A few years of poverty can teach a person many excellent life lessons, eh?

Re: sharnee

Aaaaand there's Godwin's law in effect. Only 85 posts!

You PERCEIVED flippancy in my comment. It was one of a long list of suggestions I made to her many of which were brief because extra care, deliberation or research is implied! It should have been obvious to you, a reasonable person, that I, a reasonable person, didn't mean she should toss them out the window in front of her ex's place on her to work one morning. It was an idea that she may or may not have considered and may or may not be suitable for her. I'm sorry I didn't elaborate further to explain all that. Like I said, I thought it was implied.

"...in divorce these days that you CAN'T assume you'll be together forever. You're just as likely not to."

Are you saying that the isn't true? That one shouldn't plan, even if it's just an idea in the back of your mind, for the possible eventual dissolution of the relationship? And why does that irk you, anyway? To me it seems perfectly sensible to think ahead and plan for a rainy day, even while hoping that that day never comes. Would it irk you if I suggested a newlywed to make sure the house in her name too and that she maintains credit in her name? It's the same idea. No, no one gets married EXPECTING to get a divorce. And yet so many ultimately do. Planning for something that's just as likely as not to happen SMART. I'm sorry it irks you. There is no reason for it to.

"The choice to have three children was selfish and unwise (unless they had one and twins, or triplets)."

Okay, what if she had said she had 13 children and not three? What if each of her children were by different men? I doubt the "she should not have had so many children" responses would have irked you so much in that case. Your 13 is my 3. Don't take it personally... this is hardly an opinion I force down people's throats or something I throw out in casual conversation. Or perhaps you think the world needs more people?

"If you want others to respect your decision to not procreate"

To be honest sharnee I don't really care if you do. In my experience many parents do not respect this choice even if THEY bring up the topic and all I say is "no, I don't think we'll have children" - they take it personally and get offended, as though I am criticizing their choice to have children. This is evident even in this column. The way people reacted to Janie's post was unreasonable, and many of the posters decided she was being smug and that God was laughing at her for planning out her life and being happy with it. I read NOTHING of the sort in her comment. Yet if someone posts about being proud of their children, no one acts like they are smug. We just know they are proud and happy, like nanchan's comments about her daughter earlier. I didn't take it like she talking down to me for not having children of my own!

On an average day if I can voice an opinion that someone doesn't agree with and we all get on with our lives. Today I have been misquoted, purposefully misinterpetted (procreation nazi? really?), insulted and have had my family insulted all for the flimsiest of reasons ("you made a reasonable suggestion but it was too flippant for my taste!" "you think half of all marriages end in divorce and they totally do but don't you dare plan for it!")

"you cannot play the role of procreation nazi and tell people how many children they can have."

You're thinking of the Chinese, not the Nazis. Where did I tell anyone how many children they can have? I have my opinions on how many is too many, but I've never once gone up to a pregnant lady and said "your limit's two, you better get that one aborted!" People can have 20 kids and eat McDonald's every day and watch reality tv if they want to. I may not agree with it but I'm hardly out there bossing people around.

Obviously this is a sensitive issue for you and I respect that. I'm sorry if you got upset. But these are JUST my opinions and often told in a brief way without the benefit of body language or long explanations. You should know me well enough by now to know I'm not out there punching pregnant women in the stomach, and that when I suggest "maybe dad can take the kids" I mean it as an idea for HER to possibly consider further if it's a feasible option.

Anyway, I think we've harped on this long enough. You're not going to change my opinion which is hardly terribly offensive (I think three kids is too many. BFD.) and I don't even want to change yours (you're a loving mom, I'm cool with that).


Re: Lise B

Regarding entitlement, okay, I'll concede that one. It may just be the way it came out, and that may be a product of frustration more than entitlement.

Even re-reading the isolated Janie quote you posted, Lise, I still don't see it as smug. Don't forget, it was in response to your earlier comment. If it was totally unprompted and she just came out with that out of nowhere I would agree with you. I think she said it in the same way I would say "nope, I'm not Christmas shopping this year, I'm going to spend the extra cash on the new couch I wanted and spend the time I save catching up on this or that TV show" when someone comments on long lines and high costs associated with Christmas shopping. It's an "I'm pleased with myself and my choices" comment, not an "I'm so much better than you" comment. To be honest I don't remember Janie posting before. Since she doesn't have a history (that I know of) of being a smug braggart, I think we should give her the benefit of the doubt and not come down too hard on what may have been intended as innocent comment.

Just wanted to say I totally agree with kitty O'shea up there, about grieving for loved ones. I've lost several members very near and dear to me. And a couple yes I'd planned to be in my life forever as a 'constant'..
It's a grieving symptom that can't be measured on any scale. It just hurts.

Had to comment, this here quote from Zoey is excellent advice! I haven't read exactly all of what you ladies are speaking on, but this advice is perfect for so much of what I have seen in forums. People take things way out of concept, which is sometimes because they have a negative thought train at the moment..who knows for sure why but I've seen it more than once or twice even... Zoe said...
Since she doesn't have a history (that I know of) of being a smug braggart, I think we should give her the benefit of the doubt and not come down too hard on what may have been intended as innocent comment.

VVery nice.

@Zoe
"Yet if someone posts about being proud of their children, no one acts like they are smug."
That's not true... Some of them ARE smug. nanchan's comment didn't come across as smug, just proud, but I've heard plenty of "proud parent" comments that are coming across as plenty smug - "MY little Christine would NE-VER do anything like that, she JUST wasn't raised THAT way!" (When we all know kids do things they weren't raised to do all the time, not to mention that too many parents forget that the real teacher is example, not words...), or conversations peppered every three minutes with "my son the doctor" here and "My son who lives in (insert posh district)" there... To give but these two examples (I'm doing my best to convey tone) here. Plenty more in the Christmassy brag-sheets too many parents issue at this time of the year, and the ones subjected to them do call them smug! :-D

Re: alice

Like you said, this is not measured on a Peter scale. It just hurts. My condolences for your losses.

Lise and Zoe:

Zoe's comment that you quoted out of context, Lise, ended with this:

"We just know they are proud and happy, like nanchan's comments about her daughter earlier. I didn't take it like she talking down to me for not having children of my own!"

I certainly have no right to dictate anybody's choice to have children or not to have children. What I will say to you, Zoe, just like I did to Mike H. is that until you are a parent, you can't really understand what the LW is going through.

Becoming a parent is truthfully the hugest change a human undergoes. As a woman, your whole body changes physically. For both parents, if they are invested and love the baby, their focus in life shifts from ME ME ME to "how do we provide for this child?". THAT'S why, Zoe, many of the posters look at your posts today and shake their heads a bit. You talk about not wanting children and then judging people who do have them (the LW).

That's not to say that the money saving economy tips aren't great. They ARE. But to talk as if you understand parenthood, when you aren't a parent and don't even seem to want to be one, is just wrong.
'

Lise and Zoe:

Zoe's comment that you quoted out of context, Lise, ended with this:

"We just know they are proud and happy, like nanchan's comments about her daughter earlier. I didn't take it like she talking down to me for not having children of my own!"

I certainly have no right to dictate anybody's choice to have children or not to have children. What I will say to you, Zoe, just like I did to Mike H. is that until you are a parent, you can't really understand what the LW is going through.

Becoming a parent is truthfully the hugest change a human undergoes. As a woman, your whole body changes physically. For both parents, if they are invested and love the baby, their focus in life shifts from ME ME ME to "how do we provide for this child?". THAT'S why, Zoe, many of the posters look at your posts today and shake their heads a bit. You talk about not wanting children and then judging people who do have them (the LW).

That's not to say that the money saving economy tips aren't great. They ARE. But to talk as if you understand parenthood, when you aren't a parent and don't even seem to want to be one, is just wrong.
'

@Zoe - you are being overly simplistic in regard to a very complex situation. You came off sounding extremely harsh and callous and yes, I did take offense especially coming from you who I have come to view as a pretty compassionate person. While I am far from LW1's situation today, I as well as anyone else could be there tomorrow.

As far as "planning for a divorce or the death of a spouse", what would you propose? In my own case - I had plenty of my own money in a personal account when my husband and I split up. While it did help get me through the loss of income when he stopped contributing to expenses including child support for years - things were still hard. So many unforeseen things came up that it was unfathomable. Between having three children in full time daycare at the time, having my home value depreciate by half overnight (something no one planned for as it had been unprecedented up to a few years ago), having my furnace, hot water heater, AND the transmission on my car all go up on the same day only one week after snowmagedon. Stuff really does happen sometimes. Stuff that cannot be planned for. Having been through so many challenges and coming out of them as blessed as I have; I found your lack of empathy for this LW to be disconcerting. Even more so after you revealed your own serious family problems during your childhood.

I do not believe that I misquoted you and I certainly did not deliberate misinterpret you. When I called you out on your harshness, your response was along the lines of I won't pretend to be something I am not, but if you believe that I misinterpreted your words, than I am sorry. You came off as exceedingly harsh in my opinion.

I too was harsh regarding your family situation and I am sorry for that. I was trying to make the point that we are not talking about an adult who is troubled to the extremes that you presented- but my remark was flippant when I re-read what I wrote. I will except the role of pot in this instance.

Annie-please let this mother know that she needs to go to her local church and ask for help. Our parish has people in it who give Father money all year long but especially at Christmas to use for those who ask for help with gas bills, or a broken car, or toys for small children-just any number of things. We also started a food pantry last year and every week it's filled to overflowing with anything from diapers to spaghetti just waiting for those who need it. We would love to help everyone in her situation but we don't know who you are until you ask. Please don't feel like no one cares-we just need you to come to us. Merry Christmas and God bless you.

Re: nanchan

I specifically said that you did not come across as smug, so I don't see why you should have a problem with my post. As for Zoe, it is not your place to decide if I quoted her out of context or not - that's HER prerogative. Especially since my post was an addendum to an ongoing conversation and not really an argument. At least as far as *I'm* concerned.

Unbelievable! When someone asks for help, it is not your place to assume you know more about her situation than she does or to try to talk her out of her request. When an adult states her needs clearly, the only respectful options are to help, decline to help, or STFU. When someone asks a question, you answer the question she asked, not an imaginary question that allows you to feel superior. She is working full time and seeking additional work, yet some of you claim she is lazy or undeserving. She is raising three kids on her own, yet some of you assume she knows nothing about grocery shopping or meal planning. (Some have even suggested she's wasting money on cable--just pulled it out of thin air, apparently, because it's not in her letter.) She's going hungry in order to support her children, and her ex, their father, won't help out. Adequate child support is not a "handout."

Re: Baldrz

Couldn't agree with you more. Even about "luxuries", nobody but the person directly involved is in a position to decide what s/he finds impossible to do without. These "luxuries" are often what makes a hard life bearable, and I'll certainly not begrudge them to anyone, whether it be cable TV or a restaurant once a month - for instance.

LW3
You are absolutely correct. Bereavement comes in a rainbow of situations and will happen to most of us at some point in our lives. The trouble is that it is very difficult to feel copacetic in the face of someone else's bereavement. All one needs to say is, “I'm sorry for your loss. I care for you.”
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