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Close the Book of Bobby and Toss It

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Dear Annie: A year ago, I fell in love with "Bobby" over the Internet. Two months later, he said he loved me. I was stunned. But a little later, he told me he was in a relationship and the girl was suicidal. He was afraid that if he broke it off, she'd kill herself. I've had suicidal thoughts myself and understood.

Bobby sent me wonderful messages that made me feel terrific. I was happier than ever, even though he was terribly depressed about his situation. We made a promise that as long as we had each other, we wouldn't kill ourselves. After a while, I lost all desire to hurt myself. He gave me a reason to live.

But, Annie, sometimes Bobby acts like a player. He flirts with other women. When I get upset, he always apologizes. I checked his online profile and saw messages to and from his current girlfriend. In one, he told her he "wasn't ready to let go of her and was sorry they broke up." He never told me they weren't together anymore.

I posted a message, too, giving him a piece of my mind. But since he's been suicidal, I worry about him and frequently check to make sure he's been online and is OK. Whenever people say something mean about him, I always defend him.

The truth is, I still love him, but I'm afraid to talk to him again. Do you think there's any hope for the two of us, or is this just another book in my life that I have to close? — Desperate for Answers In Michigan

Dear Michigan: Close the book and throw it away. Bobby is not honest, and any relationship with him would eventually involve misery for you. We think you know this. We're glad you no longer have suicidal thoughts, but if they should return, please get some counseling and talk to someone who can truly help you. You should never rely on another person for your happiness.

Dear Annie: My two siblings and I are planning a family vacation that will include renting a house.

They each have kids who still live at home and will be coming along. One sibling is spending a lot of money just to travel to us.

My husband absolutely refuses to pay for one-third the cost of the house, since we only require one bedroom and they require more. But if we divide it by the number of bedrooms, one family will end up paying almost half of the cost of the entire place. And if we divide it by the number of people, the family already paying the most to travel here will be paying the most for the house, as well. And that sibling has always been very generous with me.

I am upset with my husband, and now my siblings are upset with me. What is fair? — No Good Solution for this Arithmetic Problem

Dear Solution: Your husband's position is not unreasonable. The more people who use the premises the more it costs to run the place and supply the food. Unless those who spend less money to get there want to subsidize the others, it would be fair to discuss this with everyone and work out a solution together.

Dear Annie: This is in response to "Mom in Connecticut," who asked about emailing thank-you notes.

Few children would be eager to handwrite a thank-you note, but I have the solution. When my children were young, they were not permitted to enjoy the gift (spend the money, watch the DVD, play with the toy, etc.) until a handwritten thank-you was ready to be mailed. Now I don't have to remind them, as they know it is expected of them. — Mom in Pennsylvania

Dear Mom: We wish more parents were as conscientious as you. It would help with a lot of problems — not only thank-you notes.

Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM



Comments

107 Comments | Post Comment
Congratulations to the Annies. They have set a new record for Most Useless Answer in their response to LW2. Why would you bother to answer a question at all if your answer is basically "We dunno, figure it out yourself"??
Comment: #1
Posted by: Andaia
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:15 PM
LW1 -
I hate to tell you this, hon, but this is a book that only got written in your fantasies. It was never real.

I don't see any indication here that you even met this guy. For all you know, he's vastly different from what he projects and the person you think you're in love with doesn't even exist for real - just like tour relationship.

Youy shouldn't just close the book, you should BURN IT - like the Church of Rome used to do with heretical books in the Middle Ages.

And - what the Annies said: if your suicidal thoughts should ever return, call a hotline and find a therapist. Your own happiness is something you BRING to a relationship , not something that a relationship brings YOU. You can never, ever find a relationship that will MAKE you happy, you have to be a happy person to start with, then you can be happy IN a relationship, not BECAUSE of it.

LW2 -
The ledger book, money-wise fair solution would be to split the costs on a pro-rata basis. The classy solution would be to split it three ways. Except that it's not financially fair. If no solution can be found because your husband is intractable, have a private conversation with the siblings, especially the one who'll be paying most. Explain that you're stuck in the middle and can't be expected to divorce your husband over this, and what can you can do that would count as a peace offering?

Comment: #2
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:23 PM
Re: Andaia
I think they also beat a record, with LW3, on how much mileage they got on the same re-hash.

Comment: #3
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:25 PM
Re: Miss Pasko wannabe
What do you do, just lurk under a bridge like the troll you are, for midnight to pass so you can beat her to it? You're getting attention awright, but not the one you think.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:29 PM
To the people blasting Miss Pasko;

LAY OFF! Some of us like the reminders. I often get mad on other sites for not knowing which letter is being referred. If you don't like the single, small post: skip over it! Stop wasting space.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Kara
Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:37 PM
* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the second letter on 15 March 2012.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:07 AM
Honestly, I find all of the complaints and copycats way way way more annoying than the actual PSA. I don't read any of them, but it is still a big pain in the a$$ to have all this griping over something so small.
Comment: #7
Posted by: MT
Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:08 AM
LW1--Yes, please kick 'Bobby' to the curb and don't look back. I know this sort of person. His modus operandi is that he latches onto depressed, lonely women because he knows that he will become their world and that they will do practically anything to keep him in their lives. Stringing these women along has many benefits to him and few if any for the women involved. In fact, the only thing in it for you is misery and heartache. You can do better; please do.

LW2--There's nothing worse than going on vacation with an accountant who keeps track of every penny every person spends to ensure everyone is paying "their fair share." Tell your husband that some things don't cost money and by all means divide the costs according to the personal sacrifices your siblings are making to spend time with you during this vacation. You'll feel better, they'll feel better and all of you will have a great time. If your killjoy husband can't handle that, then consider leaving him home.

LW3--Here we go again with the 'Thank You' note debate. Don't the Annies have ANY MORE MATERIAL worthy of such spirited debate????? Geesh!
Comment: #8
Posted by: Chris
Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 AM
LW1 - Definitely dump Bobby IMMEDIATELY. There's no indication that the LW has even met him in person. He could be anybody, and I doubt seriously that he's suicidal at all and could very well be a totally made-up person. I ran into one like him years ago on line who was totally charming and was supposedly a police officer in Philadelphia. I had my doubts and checked up on him with the P.D. and they never heard of him. He had such a good personality and was obviously intelligent, so I never could figure out why he felt it necessary to make up things. I felt sorry for him, but he sure wasn't "boyfriend" material! Bottom line - as Lise said, don't just CLOSE the book, BURN it.



LW2 - I agree with Andaia - that has to have set the record for the worst answer by the Annies yet! Or I should say non-answer. The LW should sit down and figure out the expenses involved in renting the house, and then divide them equally among the number of people who'll be living there. That's the only fair way to do it. No matter what is decided though, it should be thoroughly discussed among all the parties who'll be sharing the house so there's no misunderstanding and everyone is in agreement BEFORE the trip. Nothing would be worse than spending a vacation with a group of people who are feeling put upon and angry over the costs.



LW3 - Annies! PLEASE stop with the thank you notes!!!!!
Comment: #9
Posted by: Kitty
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:24 AM
LW1: I'm sorry, but I think that Bobby is playing you a bit. You mention that this online interaction helped you get over feeling that you wanted to kill yourself, which is a good thing. But now it's time to move on, and find yourself someone who will only focus on you, as you deserve. Some relationships have an expiration date, and yours with Bobby has already passed.

LW2: This is very unfortunate. Are you struggling financially, and that's why your husband is so concerned? Or is he just concerned about the fairness of the issue? The thing is, this should have been discussed before the house was rented in the first place, because it sounds like this is already a done deal. Was your husband not informed of the arrangement until the house had already been rented? Or has he changed his mind when he realized the cost?

It'd be nice if your husband could be generous and realize that spending time with family is worth the extra expense. His reluctance makes me wonder if he doesn't get along with some members of your family? This could be his way of sabotaging a trip he never wanted to go on in the first place.

Otherwise, if you think it's possible, I'd make another attempt to convince him that it's worth the expense to have family harmony, and if you have any sources of money that are "yours", offer to kick in to make the difference, or offer to forego something in your household budget for a bit to help out.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:26 AM
LW1 - Chris hit the nail on the head. People like Bobby troll the Internet and look for women who are lonely and depressed and get them to latch on to him. I guarantee you everything Bobby told you about himself is one, big, fat lie. You said Bobby is now suicidal. I would bet my house that he isn't and it's all one big ploy to keep you stringing along. If you keep him in your life, it will be nothing but endless drama. Do yourself a favor and never speak to him again and don't check his profile. He's just playing you.

LW2 - Well said, Andaia!

In my opinion, if it's going to be that much of an issue, then you should all agree to get your own accomodations at this vacation spot. That way, each person pays for what they want.
Chris mentioned that "vacation accountant" who keeps track of every penny. My mother has a friend who goes on a "sisters vacation" every year with her 3 sisters. One of those sisters is that "vacation accountant." She said one time, "We ordered enough luncheon meat so that everyone would have 3 slices to their sandwhich for 5 days. Jane took 4 slices one day, leaving me with only 2 slices that day so you owe me for that! I worked it out so that each slice was 15 cents!" Can you even imagine??
Comment: #11
Posted by: Michelle
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:30 AM
I think the answer to LW2 is pretty simple. Surely the LW has her own money in this day and age. If her husband doesn't want to pay 1/3 of the cost, let him pay whatever he thinks is reasonable, and then she can use however much of her own money she wants to make up the difference. Surely the amount can't be more than a couple of hundred dollars, and whether it comes out of the left pocket or the right pocket, it's all coming out of the same pants.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Jane
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:49 AM
LW1: Sure, there's hope for the two of you, if you want to throw away all your self-respect in the process, don't mind wondering if he's finally telling the truth or continuing to play you, don't mind him flirting with other women. Are the sweet talk and empty promises worth all that insecurity? You tell us.

LW2: My own opinion: your husband's missing the point. You are traveling with your sibs, in part, in order to enjoy time together, which means that every couple is paying for more space than their household otherwise would occupy on their own. In his eagerness to avoid being taken for a chump, your DH comes across as a nickel and diming jerk, since this isn't an annual vacation or practice. And the pooled resources often allow better accommodations than you might find if you were each staying on your own (better views, extra bathrooms/showers, pool, etc.)

Of course he didn't write in, and these aren't his siblings... so I'm not sure my opinion counts for much. But since you're renting a house, rather than staying in hotels, why not see if he and your sibs would be amenable to this compromise: You and your husband pay 1/3 of the housing costs, but your sibs' families go in together on the grocery/liquor cost, so you and DH will eat free for most meals?

LW3: Yeah, well, let me know what happens when your kids get a hideous, ill-fitting handknit sweater that they won't touch with a 10-foot pole.

To the troll: Don't suppose you have the smarts to realize that Miss Pasko puts the asterisk there not to call attention to the fact that she's posting, but to alert those who wish to scroll by? Or that you're not, as you believe, leading people to think poorly of Miss Pasko, because we're fully aware that you're an impersonator?

And I'd like to know why your dislikie of PSAs trumps my finding them useful?

Comment: #13
Posted by: hedgehog
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:23 AM
Re: Kara & MT
She doesn't WANT so skip it. She wants to bitch and complain and whine and bully, so that she gets to shape BTL to her exact tastes as if it were her personal property, AND divert the attention Miss Pasko is getting to her precious little self. This is a malignant narcissist.

TO ALL THE POSTERS WHO ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THIS RIDICULOUS YURUNDA:
If we all storm Creators and report this bullying every time, perhaps they'll DO something about it.

Comment: #14
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:53 AM
Re: Miss Pasko, miss fatso, miss original pasko and Pasko uk
Actually , I find all this dissent about the PSA's to be pretty damn funny. Keep it up!
Makes reading BTL much more amusing than usual. Especially all those who have their panties in a twist over it!
Www.hahahaha.com
(just testing)
Comment: #15
Posted by: Chicky
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:10 AM
Lw2: there's fair & there's family. If you can't pay 1/3, or if it would cause financial hardship, talk to your siblings. If not, say to your husband that we just have to do it this way & to chalk it up to getting along with family. It's a rare family that one or both spouses doesn't have to do something they wouldn't want to do for the sake of harmony with the in- laws. This time it's your husband,next time it might be you.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Sarah
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:29 AM
LW2: I also agree with your husband, that a three way split is not fair. It sounds to me like your family will need to negotiate a fair split that you can all agree on, and if you can't, then drop this plan as a bad idea that you just couldn't make work. But your husband has to be willing to be flexible too, and be willing to contribute a little more than just for two people and one bedroom. If your family expects a three way split, or will get angry if they don't get what they want , then they aren't being fair either, and I feel sorry for your husband.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Dave Galino
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:32 AM
Lise: why did you feed the troll by making a comment? Please don't feed the troll.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Dave Galino
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:37 AM
LW2 - I bet what happened here is that the LW agreed with her siblings to pay 1/3 without mentioning it to her husband first, and when he found out, he objected, either to the cost or the principle. I could see paying the 1/3 just because she promised already, but that's the only reason. I'm with the husband. I'd be wondering why I should pay 1/3 of the cost of the house when I'm not getting 1/3 of the house no matter how you look at it. It sounds like they're getting 1 bedroom out of 5 or 6. I'd recommend splitting the cost based on the number of bedrooms. I don't know why it's bad that the family that is using half of the bedrooms has to pay half of the cost of the house because it sounds like they're using more of the house than the other 2 families. As for who had the greatest hardship in traveling to the vacation spot - unless this is radically unbalanced, like 2 families live a few miles away & the other lives hundreds of miles away, I wouldn't get into that because it's an argument that can go on forever, e.g. one person had to drive a long way, but the other person doesn't have paid vacation & someone else's kids are taking time off from their summer job, too, blah blah blah. My husband & I have vacationed with our families & people pay based on the number of bedrooms they use, which varies widely among the siblings. It isn't up to a sibling who comes by himself, for example, to pay for the vacation of the sibling who brings 3 kids & a spouse.
Comment: #19
Posted by: kai archie
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:57 AM
Re: Dave Galino
This troll will not let up until she gets what she wants. Ignoring her will not work, especially since there is ALWAYS someone who addresses it. I also reported all impersonated posts. Please do the same.



Comment: #20
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:03 AM
Re: Chris

Not all accountants are that nitpicky...I certainly would just pay my 1/3 and let it go at that. Why cause friction over something as silly as who pays for what on a family vacation?
Comment: #21
Posted by: Janie
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:15 AM
When the troll comes back tomorrow, you can thank the five people that fed it today.

"This troll will not let up until she gets what she wants." That's not how trolls work. What exactly do you think the troll wants and why on earth would they stop when they get it??

Your response is their automatic win. You lost today! Your response is what they want, and as long as you keep giving it to them, they'll keep coming back. The fact that you broadcasted that you reported all the posts is probably, by itself, enough to assure another week of trolling.

I know it's hard, I know you feel like the troll NEEDS your dose of self-righteous tattling. RESIST THE URGE. If you absolutely cannot stop yourself from banging away at the keyboard in frustration, post something lighthearted and pretend you're not upset.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Zoe
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:29 AM
Re: Janie
Well, there should certainly be a distinction made between accountants and cheapskates... ;-D

It may very well be that all his arguments are nothing but a pretext anyway, and what he is really objecting to is that he wasn't consulted. Which would be a legitimate beef - that is, if he mans up and tells it like it is.

Comment: #23
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:30 AM
Zoe: RE: #28 and not feeding the trolls.
I agree with you completely. You must ignore them.
If someone wants to report them, fine. But never comment directly to them, or they will keep coming back for more.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Dave Galino
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:42 AM
"When the troll comes back tomorrow, you can thank the five people that fed it today."

AMEN! PLEASE stop responding, people!!! Miss Pasko has, more than once, stated she knows BTL'ers are supportive of her.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Casey
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:48 AM
LW2 is the perfect example of sometimes you have to get along for the sake of getting along. Sure, it's probably not the most fair, but just go along with it anyway.
Comment: #26
Posted by: Casey
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:49 AM
For LW #2: Why not divide the total cost by the total number of people? If there are 15 people (regardless of ages & distance traveled) in the rental house and the total $3,000, this comes to $200 per person (regardless of age & distant traveled). Personally, these vacations never to seem to be as much fun in the end anyways so I'd rather stay in a hotel with maid accomodations, continual hot water, and a quiet/private time when needed/wanted. And then just meet up during the day or evening with others for tours, meals, swimming, or what ever activities.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Marianne
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:49 AM
LW2: I agree with the husband as well. Sure, if they're rolling in money he can afford to be generous about it and pay 1/3 of the cost. If however, like most people, they're saving money all year for their vacations, I don't see why they should pay a lot more than their share.
From what she says, her siblings have several children each (since they require many bedrooms). The cost of a 6-bedroom house is much higher than that of a 3-bedroom house, so the families that need the extra rooms should pay something extra. However, I don't think they should divide the cost by the number of bedrooms because then they would end up spending less than they should. Depending on the renting prices in the area, the families that need the extra bedrooms should pay a fixed amount more for each bedroom (say 50 dollars per bedroom). The LW can be generous on the amount and suggest an amount that is fair to all.
Comment: #28
Posted by: SummerGal
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:51 AM
LW1: I do understand what you're going through: it's very seductive to have an internet relationship, no? But they definately have their place. LIke all fantasies, they are great for feeding us when we need a boost or an escape, but if you depend on them too much, you risk losing touch with reality.

You need to get away from Bobby yes, but you also need to get out in the real world. Start small and start SAFE. Ask friends to bring other friends when you meet for dinner or coffee. If you don't have many friends, get some by doing the usual stuff, join a book club, church, etc.

Your core problem here is your DEPRESSION which is causing you to lean on the wrong things for validation. This is what really needs to be addressed. The best way to do that is to go within yourself and learn what triggers your depression. What helped me and several of my friends much more than therapy was JOURNALING. I started this after a traumatic instance in my life and since I was also unemployed, I wrote literally for hours a day. I went through my entire life, childhood, teens, adulthood, from the present time on back. Interestingly, while I was doing this, I could pinpoint my trigger points and then moving forward, when situations came up, I started to learn how to cope better. Many of my friends have done this as well: it really helps. You have to help you feel better about yourself. If that doesn't work, go to traditional therapy. Start to excersize and eat better.

Yes, Bobby is a playa and he's going to continually hurt you and other women to feed his insatiable ego. But HE isn't your problem. You are. You can get past him by focusing on your own needs. Trust me, he'll be fine.

LW2: Get everybody involved on a conference call and give them the three options you listed here. This includes your HUSBAND. You now refuse to get in the middle of things which is what your husband is doing to you now. Frankly, if you can afford it, pay the third of the house costs. These families are going to have other expenses that you will not, increased food charges, entertainment for the kids, etc.
Comment: #29
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:51 AM
And what about the days where the trolls were essentially ignored but came back anyway? That's happened as well. And silence IS often taken as agreement.

I don't think slamming each other or insisting that "MY way of dealing with trolls is the ONE TRUE AND HOLY way of dealing with trolls" is exactly productive, either.

For myself, I reserve the right to respond to trolls if I feel the situation calls for it, and I also reserve the right to post a supportive message to someone attacked by a troll if I feel the situation calls for it.

Your mileage may vary. As is your right.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:09 AM
There will always be some trolls on any board or blog.
IMO, and the opinions of others as previously posted, the best way to minimize them is not to interact with them.
Since there are some people here who insist on their right to interact with them (which IMO accomplishes nothing positive), there will be more trolls here than there would be if they didn't. Those who feed the trolls have only themselves to blame.
But on a site like this, the feeders have their rights too, including their opinions.
Such is the internet.

Comment: #31
Posted by: Dave Galino
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:45 AM
Re: Lise regarding the troll

Assuming you even know what this specific troll wants, why don't you just do what you're asking of the people who find the PSA thing irritating: ignore it. At least the troll is also using asterisks. It should be pretty easy to ignore.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Mike
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:46 AM
LW1 -- you've gotten good advice, but I just want to add one important note: don't wait for the suicidal thoughts to return before you go get therapy. It seems pretty clear to me that you need it right now, regardless of whether those suicidal thoughts return or not. I'm not sure why the Annies thought you should wait. GET HELP NOW.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:46 AM
Re: Zoe, Dave Gaino, Casey
How is just talking about it any different than addressing it directly?

Ignoring brutal bullying because it "feeds the troll" means you're complicit in someone is being left all alone while being brutally bullied, because you're fighting for the right ot look the other way. I will NOT stand idle while someone who is doing nothing wrong is being harrassed relentlessly. Having been the target of such trolling myself, I know how it feels. You don't.

As for "When the troll comes back tomorrow, you can thank the five people that fed it today."... Considering the fact that it keeps coming back even after the days when the trolling generated no feedback, this is called blaming the victim.

And, best case in point, who exactly fed the troll yesterday? There was NO ACTION WHATSOEVER yesterday. 111 comments all stricly on topic. So what triggered today's rash, do you think? It would seem that this troll gets even worse whem she's ignored.

"The fact that you broadcasted that you reported all the posts is probably, by itself, enough to assure another week of trolling"? No. 111 posts without talking about her precious self yesterday has assured us of a rash today. And broadcasting that I will continue to report every one of these posts may perhaps make others do the same. If the sorry excuses of moderators Creators has get swamped enough, perhaps they'll finally do something.

When we pay attention, she gets bad, when we don't pay attention, she gets worse - no-win situation. You're damn right that I'll keep on reporting it every time. I sure hope enough people emulate me to make a difference.

And what Mike H said.

Comment: #34
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:52 AM
Re: Dave Galino
It is not because their bullsh*t is addressed that there are more trolls here than anywhere else I've seen.

It is because the moderators at Creatrors are not enforcing their own rules. Sorry, but I don't see this happening in places where the moderators do their job.

@Mike
Because bullying must be addressed.

Comment: #35
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:56 AM
If you're using "suicide" and "relationship" in the same sentence, it's never healthy....time to get out and get help. You won't be able to stop a person who really wants to go through with it, anyway.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Paul W
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:05 AM
Re: Comment 41
"@Mike
Because bullying must be addressed. "

Really, Lise? Must it be addressed? Maybe if this was the real world and the troll was concerned about wearing any badge of shame. However, that isn't the case. This is the virtual world where anonymity emboldens more than the collective ignoring a troll. I'd say what you're doing is counterproductive at best. If you think the troll is going to mock Miss Pasko less because of what you said, I think your vanity may be clouding your judgement.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Mike
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:34 AM
@Dave Galino, a valid opinion, and one that *sometimes* works and *sometimes* fails. I've used the technique myself at times.

However, I don't share your belief that that is the *only* proper way to deal with trolls, nor do I think that ignoring them is always useful or good or even effective; in fact, I believe that *sometimes* ignoring trolls may cause more harm than good, especially if the troll is attacking a person.

It's a judgement call, of course, and not every troll is the same. If and only if the troll is solely motivated by seeking attention, then yes, starving the attention *may* be effective. But trolls are hardly forthcoming about their motivations, and they aren't exactly mature or rational beings, either -- otherwise they wouldn't be engaging is such childish behavior.

I would suggest that the only "blame" to be assessed is towards the trolls themselves, and the site moderators who are failing in their jobs. People of good intent can certainly disagree about the effectiveness of various methods of dealing with trollery.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:35 AM
Re LW#1---------Hasn't there been a rash of letters lately (mostly from women, but some from men) about people who are with someone who treats them like crap, wanting to know how they can get that person to stay with them?
Don't understand any of it, since I would prefer just my own company to being treated poorly by someone else. I must be in the minority.
----------------------
Re LW#2--------OK, call me Scrooge, but I'm part of the minority who thinks cost should be assessed on a basis of what one uses.
.
Me pay for 1/3 of a 6-bedroom house and use 1 bedroom? Why? And even if I can afford it, why should I do it to avoid hard feelings? Perhaps the families with multiple kids should avoid hard feelings from me, and pay their fair share. What's going to happen when they all chip in for food? Same 1/3 rule?
.
I'm one who's been stuck too many times paying an equal share of a "family-style Chinese dinner", or pizza, where my husband and I ate two people's portions, and the other party and their 3 kids ate the rest. (I once brought it up, and my sister-in-law said "What, do you expect my kids to pay for the portion they eat? They don't have any money." (No, lady, I want YOU to pay for them, since you bore them and brought them to dinner.)
.
I much prefer separate checks/bills based on what I actually used. There are times when I could afford to pay an equal fraction with the person who brings more people to the occasion, but doing that is using me and my money, and I got to resent it pretty quickly.
.
If they pay 1/3 of the cost this time, what happens next year? Don't set a precedent, it doesn't work. Just causes resentment. Big difference between counting every penny and saying that I need to subsidize someone's vacation (a vacation not being a necessity, but a thing you do IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT).
Comment: #39
Posted by: jennylee
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:36 AM
You know, and I realize that I'm just as guilty as anyone of this, but I really don't think we're spending enough time today on discussion of LW3. It's such a complex, deeply nuanced topic, and I really just don't feel like we've delved into it enough to really cover this important problem in society today.

*sigh* I only hope the Annies revisit the topic at a later date, so we can really get into it -- but I suppose there's not much hope of that, is there?
Comment: #40
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:37 AM
Re: kai archie
I agree! 1/3 when you're actually using 1/5 or 1/6 is unfair. This exact situation happened to us in reverse when we just got married. We went on a trip with his two siblings, their children, and his father. We were expected to pay 1/3 of the cost of everything (lodging, food, restaurants, sight-seeing). There were 14 people on the trip, and my husband had just gotten laid off (think 2001 crash), and we were about to move across the country for my job. I was furious. We were definitely struggling, they weren't, and yet we were subsidizing the cost of their vacation. Those that say it's only money are those that aren't struggling. Grownups should pay for their own vacations, not expect someone else to subsidize. We have never gone on a family vacation with my entire in-laws family again (too hard to coordinate schedules of 14 adults), but if we did, we would each get our own hotel rooms, whatever number we require. This seems to work when we travel with one of his siblings or his dad. When we have gone on vacation with my parents and siblings, everyone arranges their own travel, and the trip goes much more smoothly, without petty resentments.
I also notice this issue when going out to restaurants and splitting the bill. There is always someone who complains about us "accountants." I notice the people complaining when we want to split the bill fairly are always the people who ordered the most expensive thing on the menu, order alcohol that the rest of us didn't, etc. Guess what, your complaining about other people's stinginess just makes you look like the stingy schmuck who won't even pay for his own dinner. If everyone orders about the same things, then we just split the bill evenly--no squabbling about 5 bucks here and there. But when there is a big discrepancy, it is rude to insist others subsidize your meal.
Vacations are expensive, both spouses need to agree on spending that kind of money. Finances/money are the number 1 thing couples fight about. If you don't want this to cause trouble in your marriage, you will cancel the house and tell everyone to make their own hotel arrangements, or say unfortunately you don't have the budget to subsidize your niece/nephew vacations, and split it by bedroom.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Bean
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:38 AM
Trolls are idiots. Idiots do not respond to logic, or indeed to anything except what they want to do.
(And anonymous trolls, like we have here, are the worse, because they don't have to respond to the fear of being EXPOSED as an idiot.)
.
Best to ignore, say to yourself "Thank God I'm not as stupid as that", and move on. Take comfort in the fact that most of us here, although we may have differing opinions, express them courteously and don't act like total idiots.
Comment: #42
Posted by: jennylee
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:41 AM
Re: Word A Day Mate

Yes. Unfortunately the Webmaster doesn't monitor this site unless there are complaints, and other people feel they have the right to self monitor the site.
Comment: #43
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:04 AM
LW #2 Most women these days have access to their "own" money or should have. Get some backbone and tell your husband that you are paying 1/3 to have a nice, non-controversial vacation withYOUR family and he can come if he wants to or stay home. I would have never discussed this with the siblings to let them know your husband concern as this can lead to a family conflict during the vacation. It is give and take in a marriage and your husband needs to learn that. I think he just doesn't want to go and is making an excuse. Offer him the choice to stay home and don't make a big deal about that either. If you feel slighted this vacation, then work it out to your satisfaction before you agree to the next vacation.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Mandy
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:07 AM
Re: Mike
So in your book, you just let the abused fend for themselves, la-de-da, who gives a damn about THEM, it's all their fault anyway, right? And those tho think they can make a difference by acting are suffering from a big, inflated ego, right?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you, you can't make me, I have a right not to, and I'm not the only one.

@Word A Day Mate
Good. Someone else who will report them. The more the better. None of this would be happening if the moderators were DOING THEIR JOB.

Comment: #45
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:14 AM
LW2, this happens a lot to siblings/traveling companions who don't have kids. "Let's just split this all three ways" is one thing if it's an inexpensive lunch. It's a different kettle of fish to the uncle and aunt who just got told they are to subsidize everyone else's costs. The house cost should be on a per capita basis: in other words, six adults, four kids, a $3000 house, the family of two pays $600 - $300 each - while the two families of four pay $1200 each. That's a lot more fair than $1000 for each married couple. This isn't three married couples traveling without children. If this were the same three couples going on an adult-only vacation, then obviously dividing by three would be fair. So they can propose that, but they risk ticking off family over $600.

The same thing happens to people who don't drink much, yet the planning is done by devout oenophiles. We've had dinners for six turn into a $1200 thing, so now we're careful about asking/ordering.
Comment: #46
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:36 AM
LW2, this happens a lot to siblings/traveling companions who don't have kids. "Let's just split this all three ways" is one thing if it's an inexpensive lunch. It's a different kettle of fish to the uncle and aunt who just got told they are to subsidize everyone else's costs. The house cost should be on a per capita basis: in other words, six adults, four kids, a $3000 house, the family of two pays $600 - $300 each - while the two families of four pay $1200 each. That's a lot more fair than $1000 for each married couple. This isn't three married couples traveling without children. If this were the same three couples going on an adult-only vacation, then obviously dividing by three would be fair. So they can propose that, but they risk ticking off family over $600.

The same thing happens to people who don't drink much, yet the planning is done by devout oenophiles. We've had dinners for six turn into a $1200 thing, so now we're careful about asking/ordering.
Comment: #47
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:36 AM
Re: Mike H
I agree, it needs in-depth analysis. I'm horrified, frankly, that Congress isn't looking into this.
Comment: #48
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:40 AM
Re: Mike H
I agree, it needs in-depth analysis. I'm horrified, frankly, that Congress isn't looking into this.
Comment: #49
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:40 AM
Re: Post #30
"Personally, these vacations never to seem to be as much fun in the end anyways so I'd rather stay in a hotel with maid accomodations, continual hot water, and a quiet/private time when needed/wanted. And then just meet up during the day or evening with others for tours, meals, swimming, or what ever activities."
From Mary Ann to Marianne...completely agree! :-)
Comment: #50
Posted by: Mary Ann
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:40 AM
Re: Marianne

I agree about the per capita split. It will also make sharing the grocery bill more fair. And I too, am a camper in the Hilton chain. I'm supposed to go visit my SIL soon and asked about the nearest hotel, and she acted like I threatened to run over the dog.
Comment: #51
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:45 AM
If anyone is interested, I am attempting to start a group on Facebook to discuss these letters as well as those from non-Creators columnists (AKA, Dear Abby or Dan Savage). If anyone is interested, go to Facebook and type in 'About the Letters' into the search engine. So far it's me and... oh, yeah... me... :) But be warned: this group will be about nothing but the letters and the columnists responses to them.
Comment: #52
Posted by: Datura
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:51 AM
@ Bloom Hilda

Spewing the same vitriol (look it up) several times doesn't add to its veracity (look that one up too). Please go back under your bridge if you can't add anything useful to the discussions.
Comment: #53
Posted by: Kitty
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:02 AM
@angoradeb, good point! I'm going to write my congressperson and demand immediate action! Perhaps there's a talk radio program I could call as well.

This issue, highlighted by LW3 today, simply cannot get enough attention in my view.
Comment: #54
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:04 AM
Well, in sympathy with Zoe's and Dave Galino's opinion, I'm only going to suggest that all commenters who are sick and tired of trolls posting personal attacks (like the recent ones above by Lise's latest obsessive stalker) take action today by "reporting this post" and asking the webmaster to delete the posts for violating the Creators.com comments policy.

Whether or not we like a particular poster's style, the above personal attacks are completely uncalled for and should be removed. None of us deserves to have a cowardly bully make anonymous personal attacks in such an immature fashion, and it certainly detracts from the atmosphere here.
Comment: #55
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:11 AM
Is it just me, or has this place really become a cesspool of trolls, combative and obviously severely mentally disturbed people lately? All the enjoyment of commenting here and interacting intelligently BTL has instead become a tiresome chore of slogging through what amounts to a bunch of dog shit. The good bits get lost in the stench. Many of our most interesting and intelligent commenters have already been driven off over the past six months; the few that are left seem to get mired down in defending themselves against baseless attacks or histrionic posters who confuse opinions with facts. As much as I'd miss the regulars, who I feel kinship with, I'm seriously considering throwing in the towel. It's too bad I'm not on FB or I'd consider Datura's proposal. What can we do BTL to clean this mess up?
Comment: #56
Posted by: Chris
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:11 AM
I can understand Lise's highly charged response the the trolls because of the things that have been said about her. But, in the PSA debacle, Ms Pasko herself has said to ignore the trolls, that she know she has the support of most commentors, so I guess I'll take her at her word.

I would think the infighting caused by the ignore the troll/address the troll debate is at least as satisfying to the troll as a direct response to them. Probably more so.
Comment: #57
Posted by: C Meier
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 AM
I think the only thing that can clean this place up is some serious moderation, which so far has been completely absent. It is made more difficult by the fact that the forums here are borked. Last night I went to post something and it said I was logged in as 'Steve C'. I didn't do anything to log myself in that way and I couldn't log out of it and post as Datura. I do not know who Steve C is or why I was logged in as him. So if I wanted to, I could have spoofed the poor guy. I suppose that someone or group of someones could write the producers of this site and volunteer to be moderators. Personally, though, I'd lack the time or energy to attempt to clean this place up.

And I am sorry I won't be seeing you on the Facebook group, Chris. I don't always agree with you, but it looks like you put up a good debate. If you ever change your mind, you're more than welcomed there.
Comment: #58
Posted by: Datura
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:25 AM
Bloom Hilda ~~~ Bitey Fish wonders what you do for a living. Bitey Fish thinks you probably have an exciting and lucrative career working as a model for Proctology Today.

Comment: #59
Posted by: Piranha in Pajamas
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:25 AM
Re: Chris--It was because of the name-calling and insults that I set up Advice Columns Fanatics at Delphi. All of the posts are read and any trolls will get booted out the door. We discuss several of the advice columns and a lot of other things, too. Google "Advice Columns Fanatics, Delphi" and we should be at the top of the list.

While I'm on FB, I don't care to have my real name and picture available to any troll that's out there.
Comment: #60
Posted by: Joannakathryn
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:32 AM
LW2: How about a compromise? Everybody is getting the use out the rest of the house--that's part of the point of getting a house. I would suggest splitting the bill--everybody pays 1/3 of half of the bill for the house itself, and then split the other half by the bedrooms, and each pay whatever they use.
Comment: #61
Posted by: partsmom
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:34 AM
Re: jennylee
I LOVE your take on #2. This makes sense. There's a huge difference between being a person who makes a federal case out of every little thing and being a person who sets some reasonable boundaries.
I have to wonder if this is why some women get into the situation LW1 was in. So many women are told to suck it up, stop being so sensitive, go along to get along, etc, etc, etc. While this is at times good advice so many women just stop listening to their instincts after a while. Then they feel like they are the bad guy when they actually feel uncomfortable about something.
Comment: #62
Posted by: Anna R.
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:38 AM
Re: Datura
Two things can de done to clean this place up:
a) Remove attack posts. If they're too busy to monitor on a regular basis, they should at least remove the posts that contravene the site rules when someone complains about them.
b) Fix it so that a username can only be used by one person. There would be no impersonation if not for that.

Until that happy day, all we can do is report the offensive posts en masse.

Because unfortunately, what can be done to fix it lies with the administration of this site and, for reasons unknown,
there doesn't seen to be a political will to moderate this place like other sites are. This doesn't happen elsewhere as far as I know, at least nowhere near this extent, even on Dear Abby Yahoo, where the response to Dear Abby can run in the 200-300.

About your FB venture, I'm wishing you the best of luck. Otherwise, there's always Delphi. I can assure you that trolling is not allowed there.

@Chris
Let me add my personal invitation to JohanaKathryn's, for you to join Delphi.

Comment: #63
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:51 AM
I read this column on this website everyday but have never commented. I sometimes skim the other comments, but generally am not interested. I have noticed a lot of comments concerning the PSA/Miss Pasko debate. I just wanted to let you guys know that it's incredibly petty to be upset or to be arguing over such a small issue. This an advice column, not a blog or message board. This is not a place to debate or demean other posters. There are trolls on the internet- ignore it. You're all adults but your constant posts about nonsense and foolish arguments (beyond the Miss Pasko thing) remind me of Middle School girls who are fighting on Social Networking sites. Saying powerful, mean or ridiculous things on the internet is the biggest waste of time and has no benefits.
Comment: #64
Posted by: HSBPS
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:09 AM
Re: Piranha in Pajamas

Bloom Hilda ~~~ Bitey Fish wonders what you do for a living. Bitey Fish thinks you probably have an exciting and lucrative career working as a model for Proctology Today.

Oh my, you are too funny, that was a joke right, so not funny, don't give up your day job, you are not funny






Comment: #65
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:10 AM
I started to post right after Bloom Hilda and Lise Brouillette's name was still on the line where my name should have been. What's up with that? So if this post under her name my apologies.
-
Why do the sibling expext the LW to pay for their children? I'm with the husband on this one. They are the ones who should feel embarassed not the other way around. What is the reasoning behind feeling entitled to bring the Whole Hee Haw gang on the other guys dime? I'm guessing that the wife did not discuss it with her husband first because then there would have been no problem. Making the LW feel bad about her husband's reaction is a cover up for their own lack of manners. And why would anyone feel a 5 to 2 split was equal? If everything was divided up per capita who could complain or feel put out? Since we don't know the finincial situations of anyone involved I think it is presumptious in any case to suggest Uncle Bob shell out the most.
Comment: #66
Posted by: Penny
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:21 AM
When my older brother, my little brother and his spouse, and me and my family rented an SUV to take a driving trip together, we didn't charge by the butt. We split it 3 ways. I don't see the condo being any different. Someone that nitpicky over the price either can't really afford to go or has other issues. Maybe he just doesn't want to vacation with them?
Comment: #67
Posted by: farrar sanchez
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:41 AM
@Miss Pasko (the original):

I left you a follow-up btl on Dr. Wallace's 4/23 column.
Comment: #68
Posted by: Carla
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:46 AM
Agree with the Annies on LW1. I don't see anything productive out of this relationship. Tell Bobby bye-bye.

Lise brings up a good point – have you met Bobby in person? If you have, what was he like? Was he the same person you met in the online chatroom (or wherever you engaged in your conversations)?

See, methinks this is the problem with chatroom relationships – all too often, people involved in these "relationships" never have met the other party in person. Maybe that nice guy you met online is actually a nice guy ... or maybe he's a total creep out for your body. Nobody knows that until it's too late, it seems.

Like I said, bye-bye, Bobby! And you should careless if he is OK afterward, that will no longer be your concern.
Comment: #69
Posted by: Bobaloo
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:50 AM
LW2: I'd sit down first with your husband and discuss realities. Is a full 1/3 of the house less than what you would pay for a single hotel room for the week? If it is, then you should pay a full 1/3 hands down. If a hotel is cheaper, then discuss other parts of fair - you're all using the dining area, kitchen, and bathrooms together. You'll all be occupying the house 16 hours of the day you're not sleeping in the communal rooms. Do the math out - lets say the house is 2 grand for the week, 5 bedrooms. 16 hours of the day (2/3) is spent in common areas - will is he wiling to pay a full 1/3 of that? That'd be $450 for common area space for your share. Bedrooms (1/3 of 2000 divided by 5 = 130 per family per bedroom they use) SO $580 total (1 bedroom, 1/3 of common space) Then ask him - is it worth the extra $80 you'll save for the WEEK to be that picky? If he insists, take an alternative solution like that to your family, and let them input ideas. Hopefully though, he'll realize that pinching pennies over vacation housing never turns out well, and isn't worth putting a sour spin on the entire vacation for $13 a day!!
Comment: #70
Posted by: 1mommy1
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:56 AM
@Chris: You are absolutely, under no circumstances, allowed to leave. I would be so sad :( I think Lise B. is right. The way to make it stop is to report it.

@Datura: I'll take you up on the FB offer :) I'll join when I get home tonight.
Comment: #71
Posted by: Casey
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:03 PM
Eh I'm for splitting it three ways. Even if one family uses more *bedrooms* all the common areas and ammenities are shared. A bedroom is really a trivial part of sharing a house/cottage. Sharing makes it easier for everyone to come. If I was expected to travel several hours to go to a cottage and found out my sister living nearby expected me to pay the same price, I'd be a bit miffed. Likewise, if my childfree sister expected my family to pay for over half the house because there are more of us numerically, despite that she and her husband would be using all the same ammenities (showers, bathrooms, kitchen, fireplace, games, lake, boats, sport equipment) I'd feel like *I* was being taken for the chump. It's not fair to compare the cost to a hotel... a hotel with no kitchenette and less access to ammenities and scenery. The comfort of a vacation house is light years beyond a hotel room (unless you're really into maid service. I'm not. I can make my own bed, thanks). Eating out every meal on a vacation is outrageous expensive, even if you're just two. It's rare sharing a house isn't the way to go financially. Husband needs to suck it up. I think he's just feeling like he's being taken for a ride, but he's thinking of this from a childfree male perspective (sorry but most childfree by choice males I have met are the most self centred jerks I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. It's all about them, their money, their career, Tom Leykis, and not getting taken for a fool).
Comment: #72
Posted by: wkh
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:12 PM
Hey, I just thought that I would point out that the majority of the troll's posts for today HAVE been deleted -- so many, many thanks to the site moderators for stepping up, and to all of us who reported the posts and requested their removal.

Consistent, polite, respectful reporting of posts that violate the comments policy does seem to help; at least it did today!
Comment: #73
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:13 PM
Re 1mommy1 - why would the LW & her hubby pay 1/3 for the common area? Assuming there are 10 people there, LW & hubby, 2 sibs with a spouse & 2 kids each, then why wouldn't they pay 2/10 of the common area cost since they are 2/10 of the number of people using the common area? Or less, if there are more kids? Their cost would be $400 for 20% of $2000, which seems a lot less money than $667, which is 1/3 of the $2000. I think that once you start calculating the number of hours someone is using a resource, you've gone beyond picky. What if someone stays up later than someone else? Do they owe more money? If my spouse used that approach, I would seriously consider reducing my hours of consumption to 0 and staying home
Comment: #74
Posted by: kai archie
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:13 PM
Ref impersonations and bullying

It is futile to wish for a spell of obmutescence from these posters. In fact, the best riposte is to report unruly posts to the Creators Webmaster.
```
Comment: #75
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:17 PM
Word A Day Mate ~~ Bitey Fish likes you. And Bitey Fish sends amicable salutations to the esteemed Anu Garg.

<;-))))>-<


Comment: #76
Posted by: Piranha in Pajamas
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:35 PM
You people do realize you've spent more time discussing trolls and whether they should be responded to than the trolls actually spent posting?

75 messages, and a few troll posts (that can be passed over in a heartbeat). And dozens of annoying troll etiquette posts, vehemently debating the merits of alternatives for dealing with those few errant posts.

You have become your own trolls.

(Flame on)
Comment: #77
Posted by: Jpp
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 PM
Re: Mike H

Yes, that's true, but Lise is still a welfare cheat. guess I'll just have to have her investigated by the authoritites. It's a felony. I am sure there is a law that says you have to seek a job, it will help if they note her Internet activity and how much time she can spend on a computer, but can't get a real job, because, there would be that nasty boss breathing down your neck and making you work.

By the way, this is an opinion as well as fact, not harassment, so there is no reason to have it removed.
Comment: #78
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:49 PM
Re: Mike H

Yes, that's true, but Lise is still a welfare cheat. guess I'll just have to have her investigated by the authoritites. It's a felony. I am sure there is a law that says you have to seek a job, it will help if they note her Internet activity and how much time she can spend on a computer, but can't get a real job, because, there would be that nasty boss breathing down your neck and making you work.

By the way, this is an opinion as well as fact, not harassment, so there is no reason to have it removed.
Comment: #79
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:54 PM
Look at all the debate surrounding LW2, and now we know why the Annies offered such a useless answer! As someone who used to never order alcohol with a meal, I was one of those people who, if the restaurant bill was split evenly instead of by who ate/drank what, would end up paying more than what I really owed. Since the difference was usually not THAT much, and because I could afford it, I never made an issue of it. I just didn't care. And I generally figured that what goes around comes around -- sometimes I was the only one who ordered dessert, for example, and then they were "subsidizing" my dessert. Life's too short to worry about a few dollars.

Of course, when you get into vacation home territory, you're not talking about just a few bucks. Some years ago, we went on a family vacation with my parents, my brother, SIL, niece and nephew. We rented a condo together. We split it three ways. Neither hubby nor I questioned this -- we knew it meant we were "subsidizing" my niece and nephew. But wait, there's more...the place we were going was simply a car-ride away from my parents and my brother and his family -- we had to fly in and then ride up with them. So, the entire vacation was "more expensive, per capita" for us than for anyone else. Honestly, we just didn't care. In fact, we offered to help pay for the gas, but they turned us down. When we got home from that vacation, we got something in the mail. It was a gift card to one of our favorite restaurants. My brother and SIL sent it to us with a note about how much they appreciated that we flew in to join them on their vacation. I think it was their way of acknowledging that we "subsidized" my niece and nephew. The cost of the dinner didn't equal the cost of the condo -- but it was a nice gesture, and unnecessary, as far as we were concerned.

Again, for us, it was easy -- we could afford to do it, and we just didn't care about it. I'm not judging folks who either can't afford to be so blase about it, nor am I judging the folks who could afford it but disagree with it on principle. Different strokes for different folks. Which is why the Annies offered such a non-answer to the question -- because the only answer is, "you guys have to work this out."

Plus, there's potentially some context missing here. Are LW's sibs always trying to "mooch" off of them in some fashion? Does it always seem to work out that LW and hubby seem to be the ones who have to compromise or pay more or what have you? Do things just never seem to "even out" for them? Well, then that would certainly explain why hubby feels so strongly about this.
Comment: #80
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:57 PM
Re: wkh
Why would you want to split it 3 ways if there are more people in your family? Are they not also using more of the amenities (showers, fireplace, games, etc)? Why wouldn't you want to pay your fair share? 2 people are nothing compared to 8 when using up resources. Why should your child free siblings pay your children's vacation?

Unless you have very young children (newborn or toddlers), they will also be using up the amenities of the house. Why shouldn't you have to pay for your kids vacation instead of your siblings paying for them?

I have two children now, and I wouldn't dream of taking a vacation with my childless sister, taking two rooms to their one room, and expecting to split it equally. Sure, if all of bunked together into the same bedroom---we could then get a smaller house which would cost less and be cheaper for everyone. a 3 bedroom house is significantly cheaper than a 5 or 6 bedroom house--why should the childless couple have to be equally for the larger house?

I guess you would have the right to be miffed, but no logical basis for it.
Comment: #81
Posted by: Bean
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:05 PM
Re: Piranha in Pajamas

Bitey in a jar with cream sauce, gulp it down, stinky fish, burp

bye bye, Bitey

you should be reported to the moderators for not being funny
Comment: #82
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:16 PM
I hate to point out the obvious but the reply letters that the Annies and most sites also point always have reference to the early writers. I don't like the public service announcements personally but appreciate the fact that Miss Pasko does not do this to annoy people but to help the folks who do enjoy seeing them. But this site like every other site that allows folks to use any name they want instead of actual names (which I do use) opens themselves up to the mindless trolls who do this to get a rise out of the normal readers. Very time we reply to one of the obvious trolls we are feeding them (rewarding them with what they want) and only giving them more reason to flock to the site and continue to make their malicious comments.
Comment: #83
Posted by: Paula
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:32 PM
Re: Dave Galino

Could not agree with you more. Don't feed the trolls people.
Comment: #84
Posted by: Paula
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:35 PM
Bloom Hilda ~~ Bitey Fish is yawning at you because you are so very boring.

Comment: #85
Posted by: Piranha in Pajamas
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:38 PM
Re: Janie

Because Janie people like my husband and I should not have to pay more than our fair share just because our family members bred like rabbits and need us to fork over more money than our actual expenses would add up to to subsidize their choices. I am totally on the husband's side on this. If there are only the two of them and the other couples are bringing children with them means they are using more electricity, water, heating, etc. If this were your electric bill you would be outraged if the company charged a per house rate to ensure everyone on your block paid the same amount spreading the expenses out like that. The fairest way to do this is to total up the number of people going and divide the price of the rental by that number getting the per person rate. Then the couple would pay the rate for two. The larger family would pay for however many people are attending. IF they can't afford that then maybe they shouldn't be wasting money on a vacation they can't pay for.
Comment: #86
Posted by: Paula
Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:41 PM
Oh you folks love when a (what you refer to as a troll) writes in. It gives you something to do that day. Otherwise you would be so bored you would all start fighting w/each other. Let's face you daily posters are the biggest trolls. If you dont like adverse comments on the internet than find something else to do with your time. For crying out loud if posters upset you so much, really try to re-evaluate your lives. Oy!
Comment: #87
Posted by: vicky
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:11 PM
Re: Lise, comment #45
"So in your book, you just let the abused fend for themselves, la-de-da, who gives a damn about THEM, it's all their fault anyway, right? And those tho think they can make a difference by acting are suffering from a big, inflated ego, right?"
.
First off, Miss Pasko has already said that she doesn't need anyone to fend for her. Second, I never said it was her fault that someone is acting like a knob in reference to her posts. Personally, I don't really care about her posts. If I really wondered when a previous LW had posted, I could use Google myself. If there are others out there that like her posts, more power to them. Again, I don't really care. I can skip her informative posts just as easily as I can skip a troll's post. So why am I even posting in the first place if I'm so nonplussed about this issue? Because I can't help but notice the delicious irony in the fact that some people who preach to ignore the posts that others find irritating can't do the same regarding troll posts. Moreover, I don't think your replies to the trolls are doing anything except rewarding them. Do you really think any of the trolls care that you think they're terrible people? Do you think it will make them post less? Do you think Miss Pasko is really secretly being terribly hurt by some moron and only your empassioned defence is allowing her to bravely return to this forum?
.
If you really feel you simply must continue tilting at these windmills, knock yourself out. But if you think it's actually being helpful, please ask yourself this: how's it working for you so far?
Comment: #88
Posted by: Mike
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:34 PM
Why can't people just post what they want to post?

If someone doesn't like the PSA' don't read em.... if someone doesn't like the comments people make about the PSA being annoying, don't read them either.

Why do we all feed into the animosity to the point where we belittle each other?

Everyone here complains when "The Annie's" beat the same old subjects to death, aren't we all tired of beating up those who like the PSA and those who don't?

Be Kind to each other.... seriously this world might turn into a slightly better place.

Comment: #89
Posted by: EyeRoller
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:37 PM
LW1 - You mention in your letter that you already suspect he's a player. Trust your gut; he probably is.
LW2 - What Marianne said. Split total cost by the number of people, then pay for however many are in your group. Again, this is something that needs to be decided during the initial plans for the vacation and BEFORE a deposit is put on the rental property.
LW3: Re: hedgehog, who said: Yeah, well, let me know what happens when your kids get a hideous, ill-fitting handknit sweater that they won't touch with a 10-foot pole.
It should make no difference. The gracious thing to do (a rapidly diminishing art, graciousness....) is to thank the person who took the time to make and give the gift. I'm sure many of us have been to dinners where the hostess was a lousy cook and half the food was inedible. This didn't mean we said a stone-faced good-bye at the end of the evening, without a word of thanks - unless we were complete clueless clods. We thanked the host or hostess when we left, and perhaps even (horrors!!) sent a hand-written note as a follow-up.
Comment: #90
Posted by: Linda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:56 PM
@Penny
Don't worry about a different name appearing. It'll go through with no problem or the worse that will happen is that the system will ask you to re-log. In the year and 1/2 I've been posting, I've never heard of anyone accidentally impersonating someone because of that.

And speaking of which, most of the troll posts are gone. Along with plenty of others I'm sure, I reported each and every one of them, and it worked! Now let's do the same like I just did for posts #78 and #79, shall we?

Re: Jpp
How very flippant and cavalier one can be when the pulsing hatred of "those few errant posts" is not directed at you...
"dozens of annoying troll etiquette posts"
And with you contributing. Pot, meet kettle.
Comment: #91
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:16 PM
Re: Mike
How's it working for me so far? Well, what I'm advocating most is reporting them en masse, and today it DID work, didn't it?

As for the rest, I'd be curious to see how differently you'd feel if you, not me or Miss Pasko, were the recipiendary of this vitriol. It's easy to say, just don't read it, but they come with a PSA warning like Miss Pasko's announcements. It's also easy to say, just suck it up and shut up, when you're not the one targetted.

EyeRoller is right, you know: people should be able to post without one or two being constantly singled out for abuse.

Comment: #92
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:26 PM
Erratum -
But they DON'T come with a PSA warning
Comment: #93
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:27 PM
You folks are the worst kind of idiots!
Comment: #94
Posted by: vicky
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:13 PM
Re: Lise Brouillette

I am not sure how pointing out that you give advise to others, non stop, when you are on welfare, not working, not looking for a job, post on the Internet 24/7, and your personal life is a disaster is abuse? It's not abuse it hypocrisy, and that always needs to be pointed out. Abuse is what is happening with the taxpayers who support you by going to work everyday, in spite of those mean old employers "breathing down your neck", your words, not mine.

You really need to get a job and get off welfare,

not abuse, just facts, no need to report anything to a moderator, you should be moderated, by the welfare fraud investigators.
Comment: #95
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:30 PM
Re: Lise Brouillette

The others aren't targeted because they are not on welfare and sitting on the Internet 24/7, they are law abiding citizens, unlike you. Doesn't welfare require you to seek employment? Aren't' you supposed to look for a job, if you were you wouldn't be on here all day, giving other people advise, when your personal life is a disaster.

Facts not abuse,
Comment: #96
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:35 PM
Lise

just suck it up and shut up, when you're not the one targetted.


The others aren't targeted because they are not on welfare and sitting on the Internet 24/7, they are law abiding citizens, unlike you. Doesn't welfare require you to seek employment? Aren't' you supposed to look for a job, if you were you wouldn't be on here all day, giving other people advise, when your personal life is a disaster.

Facts not abuse
Comment: #97
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:44 PM
LW1- dump him.

LW2- No need to talk to your siblings, they are not the problem. Tell your husband his "accounting" has driving a wedge in your relationship with your siblings, and because of this, they are not angry with you. Tell him since his objections to dividing the bill into thirds has caused such an issue, you will now be renting a separate room from your siblings so you will have a bill entirely separate from the siblings, thus solving the argument your husband has created. Then tell him if he wishes to save money from renting an ENTIRE room by sharing a room with your siblings (and dividing it into thirds) to let you know, and you will ask your siblings if they would allow you to once again stay with them in THEIR room. If your husband doesn't budge, then stick to the separate room. You can later explain to your siblings it was because your husband was whining about how to divide the money, and apologize.

lw3- my parents also did this, but I'm a procrastinator so as an adult my handwritten notes always arrive about three months after the holiday and my cards about two to three weeks afterward... those who share their email with me get them much sooner.
Comment: #98
Posted by: Maria
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:47 PM
... jeez, after scrolling through these comments I wish I had stayed away. What the heck is wrong with you guys? Are your lives so dull you truly must argue on the internet? Is it just because it is the internet, or are you this cold staring people in the face as well? It's odd having to say this when I am one of the youngest ones here, but grow up! There is so much hate here it makes Hitler look like a pacifist. Arguing on this forum is always more one-sided than when Muhammad Ali fought Sonny Liston.
Comment: #99
Posted by: Maria
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:55 PM
Re: Maria
Just as well you're getting here late, since some of the worst posts have been removed - except for Bloom Hilda's last five. On the other hand, you are blissfully ignorant of what we're arguing about, but I forgive you. ;-D

Comment: #100
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 PM
Holy crap, you guys, I am totally in agreement with Maria. Do you realize you probably have more posts going on here arguing about Miss Pasko, each other, bullying, trolls, and etc etc than you actually have posts about the Annies' letters? You have turned into a bunch of snarling dogs. News Flash: you can skim over the any posts you don't want to read, even skip them, AND this is a virtual world where frankly, what people say about you matters not one whit. Sure, it's fun to spar now and then, but if you're truly reading every single post on this site and feeling you must respond to every single one based on your personal feelings--follow the Annies' advice and get some freakin' counselling.
Comment: #101
Posted by: Jane
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:49 PM
re: thread today

Does anyone else get the feeling that there is one person who is some kind of schizophrenic amongst us who logs on as all these different people on a bunch of different computers to have some kind of evil debate within their own personalities and post it to the web for validation?

Sorry, just back from happy hour with a coworker and we had a couple of glasses of wine, so maybe that's why that theory came to mind.... at any rate, tomorrow's Friday, let's hope the personalities take the day off!
Comment: #102
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:51 PM
Well Lise,
There you have it, you respond to every freakin post on every advice column, so here's to you:
but if you're truly reading every single post on this site and feeling you must respond to every single one based on your personal feelings--follow the Annies' advice and get some freakin' counselling.
great advice Jane, well said:
or get off the Internet and get a job
Comment: #103
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:01 PM
Re: nanchan

Does anyone else get the feeling that there is one person who is some kind of schizophrenic amongst us who logs on as all these different people on a bunch of different computers to have some kind of evil debate within their own personalities and post it to the web for validation?

Guess what Nanchan, Lise is convinced that you are the schizophrenic, that you are me, John Dung, the Pope and Madonna, isn't that a kick, anyone who disagrees with her is YOU, how sick is that?
Comment: #104
Posted by: Bloom Hilda
Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:04 PM
Re: Bloom Hilda

Doesn't matter to me what Lise thinks or writes, because I don't pay attention to her at all. I don't respond to her posts, I don't even respond to questions from her, because.... I just don't care.

And I'm just not that inclined to be anybody else, because I like being Nanchan..... always have, always will.... Just saying. And closing the book on that debate, OK?

Please don't mention that again.
Comment: #105
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:02 PM
LW2: The person using most of the house should pay for most of the house. I don't see why any couple should have to pay 1/3 when they're only using one bedroom, while other couples are bringing multiple people and using more space. Seems like a "duh" to me. Who cares if they're traveling farther? These are all choices THEY made freely, and it's not your job to pay for them or make up for them. Are they paying for your room because they're bringing kids and you're not? No. So why would you pay for their room because of the same reason? Doesn't make sense.

If you want to subsidize your siblings' trip in some way, you can treat them to a nice dinner while you're on vacation. And if you want to be 'fair' then for future trips, you can agree on a vacation house that's closer to them.

Bloom Hilda, shut the FUCK UP already. Jesus. How can anyone spend so much damn time pissing around about whether somebody else is on welfare? My God. Get a job already.
Comment: #106
Posted by: lilypants
Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:11 PM
LW1: You sound too crazy to be real. But in case you are - get some therapy.

LW2: If you want to pay more to cover your sbilings than use your own money to do so. It's not your husband's job to support your family.
Comment: #107
Posted by: Diana
Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:11 PM
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