Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

NANCHAN--from Fri webbing--you can do a civil suit. Law Enforcement not necessary to file charges to do that. Goal is to remove this man from driving on the street. Not owning a car, but the actual stoppage. You are not asking for compensation--really you could do the token under $50,000 as they state--but the kicker is to remove him as a tragedy that WILL happen. Whether he is killed or someone completely stepping out of a store onto the sidewalk--it will all be sad.
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And to Chris. It makes me sick to read how much attachment you put to a piece of metal--how expensive a car is--versus a human life. That says alot, and I am sorry you feel that way. Human life having no value in comparison to a car---no matter how expensive a car may be--could be your bargaining chip with St Peter one day. Play it wisely.
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LW1: This letter fits right with Friday's postings.

She is a drunk--dry or not. The question is Do I call the police if she had a drink. Since she was on family property, YOU let her drink. You did not stop her. But when she left the house and got in the car, you can all be held accountable for her actions. This is why insurance for bars is so high.

First, make sure your own insurance is at the max. Do not ever let her drive any of your cars. FInd out if she even has insurance, as I am sure no one would insure HER. If she is, she must be rich, as several thousand dollars per year are charged for insurance on a DUI.

Inviting her to a party where drinking would take place set her up completely to fail. Other adults who do this need to get it--she may be the one killing one of their loved ones--The drunk driver seldom gets killed.

Mom wants to know is she is hurting her by inviting her to attend these bashes. You may call her an adult and not want to make choices for her but since she is not of right mind when she drinks--your words was SHE IS A DIFFERENT PERSON.

This is such a personal thing growing up with a father who was an alcoholic. Even when he stopped cold turkey, the status of alcoholic remains the rest of your life. You can't have just one. He said the cravings are there all the time. As quiting smoking 3 years before he died. He had to. He had a quad bypass on his heart. But he said those cravings never go away, you have to learn to be stronger. So when my father--alcoholic--for 50 years--can quit--there is reason enough others can too. Just on his own one day he said NO MORE. We all believe he asked the Lord for help.

I am beyond the disgust and distain. My father did not kill anyone in his life time of alcohol, but there was never a night I did not go to bed wondering if that would be the night the cops would come over, knocking on the door. A life time of FEAR for someone else.

He had been sent away a few times, but 30 days is not long enough when it is a lifetime of personal hell.
My sister's father-in-law killed himself with a shotgun blast to the head. Why? Cause he said he had nothing to live for when the deputy took his 12 pack of beer from him when he stopped him driving down the country road--he had just been to the liquor store and got it, they called 9-1-1. He had already killed his farm hand in a drunk-drive accident. And his words echoed what Chris said--oh well, I smashed my truck too. Not poor Barney. Not a word for his family.

Her f-i-l had 3 children, several grandchildren, great grand children. They owned their new home in the country, off the old farm place, told the farm land. He had brothers and sisters. But still his only friend was his bottle.
He left a note that his oldest grandson was to get his truck--yeah, after they scraped the brains out of the inside.
The survivors pay the price. On both sides of the situation. And it continues to happen. And we continue to go to funerals.

SO yeah, take the keys to the car, call the cops, what ever you got to do, cause if they are pissed at you all the next week, they are still breathing and can tell you all about it. Someone else many not have that chance if you don't make that call.

Oy Vey LW3. If your grandchildren have crap manners by your standards here's a big clue by four... YOU RAISED THEIR PARENTS. So just think about that, or perhaps adopt to the modern world.

BTW for those reading along, a while back I said if my parents did not feel a FB "thanks!" (well, more wordy than that but still, on FB) was enough and required a physical card I would tell my kid to send the damn gift back... I asked my teens (my younger ones are preschool and infant) and they agreed with me. They'd rather not have the gift than deal with someone too precious to accept a FB or email thank you note. Welcome to 2011, seriously.

LW1 - You need to lay it on the line with your daughter: talk with her directly about the things you said in your letter, and make sure she gets the message. Tell her that if she comes to another family event and drinks, even one drink, she will not be allowed to drive. Take her keys when she comes in the door. Make that a condition for her attending. If she objects and makes a stink, rescind her invitation. Otherwise you're as responsible for her actions (including possible road fatalities on her way home), as the bartender who keeps serving drinks to a totally inebriated customer.
I saw nothing in your letter to suggest that your daughter is depressed, but even if she is, that's a separate issue. Depression can sometimes be a factor in alcoholism, but it's the worst kind of amateur psychological sleuthing to assume that it is without more evidence than you presented in your letter. Ignore the Annies' diagnosis, but follow the better part of their advice regarding the keys.
LW2 - Again I'm troubled by the Annies' diagnosis that your boyfriend doesn't want to do the work for his GED. Just how do they know that? It may be that, but a more likely explanation is that his learning disability may be more severe than you realize. I would agree with their advice to take a serious look at your life. Assuming things don't change, is this a relationship, life, and perhaps eventual marriage you can be happy in? If not, start planning your exit. Staying in the relationship if your condition for staying is endlessly hoping he'll change, is unfair to both of you.

LW3 - I think your note was in response to the grandmother who was offended when her grandkids thanked her for a gift publicly on Facebook. Personally I think she should accept and appreciate the thanks, however it arrives. Some people are offended that "thank you's" aren't hand-written. Others are offended that they aren't delivered by phone. Others think only an in person thank you will suffice. (My grandmother thought the only acceptable response to a gift, was a return gift, accompanied by a card signed in blue or black ink! Anything else deeply offended her.) She and the other complainers have one thing in common, in my estimation: they need to get over themselves. Just appreciate that you were thanked, and move on.

LW3: Sigh. Thank you notes again. Everyone should go to the nearest drugstore and spend a couple of bucks on a box of thank you cards. Write out a brief, thoughtful note when someone goes to the trouble and expense of giving you a present. Put it in the mail. If you accept gifts without acknowledging them or thanking the person who gives them, this is what they think of you. Let's see, in this one brief letter alone:
"The pervasive disappearance of even the most basic manners and consideration for others is cheapening our quality of life and sadly breeding some low-class citizens."
1. Ill-mannered.
2. Ill-bred.
3. Low class.
4. Responsible for lowering everyone's quality of life.
LW3 didn't even mention "Ungrateful." And that's just for not sending a thank you note. Even LW1's drunk driver doesn't get called these things. So send the freaking thank you notes. It's so easy to do and it means so much.

Re: Joyce/MN

Absolutly right about the reason insurance for bars is high.


Inviting this woman to family functions where there is booze is begging for trouble. She is a known alcoholic, everyone knows she is an alcoholic, if you serve her booze, and she gets drunk and drives back, you or your family is going to be held liable.



BTW: Whats with this "turn over the keys" stuff ? If she is a bad drunk, how about cutting her off, and/or just telling her, no booze for you. Personally, I would stop inviting her, but if they want to, there is no law that says they have to serve her. If she brings her own booze, toss her, and then don't invite her to anything anymore. I'm wondering if she is going to these family functions only because of the free booze.



Either way, she can't be allowed to drink at these events, especially if she is driving, and FWIW, I don't think she so much as "left them in the glove box" as she hid them there, in that she had every intention (while sober) of getting drunk later on and driving home......She is a tragedy waiting to happen, and someone in this family is going to be held liable for it.

ANOTHER letter about kids/grandkids not writing thank you notes? Haven't the Annies run this one into the ground? I think all the posters have answered and re-answered this one ad nauseum! I agree with wkh that times have changed what is "acceptable" as a proper "thank you", but I try to gear how I respond to a gift to the age of the gift giver. In other words, an older person who is not used to electronic communication is more likely to feel offended if they don't receive a written thank you note by postal mail, where someone younger or who is used to communicating mainly through e-mail or FB would consider a thank you posted there as just fine. Personally, my only concern is to know that the recipient got the gift. Any form of a thank you, whether verbal, written, or through FB or an e-mail is just fine with me. The most important part to ME is to know that the recipient enjoys what I have given to them.

LW1-
"No one wanted to call the police for fear that Susan would lose her license, her job and her apartment, but they were worried sick."
You would prefer to see her lose her life, or her freedom because she ends up in jail after killing someone under the influence? Then you're as bad as she is and you'd be partly responsible through your inaction. For evil to happen, there has to be the bad one committing it and the good one looking the other way. Wringing your hands is not gonna help.

Time for a family & friends' intervention. Susan has to be made aware that people don't find her amusing at all. Start by making a video of her at her worst and play it back to her at the beginning of the intervention. Make sure she's sober for THAT. Do it NOW. Don't wait until she walks unscathed out of an accident where she killed three people whose only fault was to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for inviting her or not to family functions - that is up to you, but you should make her invitation conditional to her yielding the car keys upon arrival. And lock up the booze so you can control what goes in. Oh, and by the way, after YOU got her drunk on your premises and YOU looked the other way while she got behind the wheel smashed, YOU will also be liable. LEGALLY liable. Now perhaps THAT will spur you to do something at last? Sheesh.

LW2-
"Decide whether this is good enough for you, because it may be what you get"
Apparently it isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be writing. Learning disabilities are not the same as a lack of motivation, which is what seems to be in play here. You are not his mother, and your job is not to force him to do him homework as if he were a little kid.

But the real problem here is not the learning disability, although it may be more severe than you realise. I'm more concerned about the fact that he doesn't listen to anything you may have to say, and that he doesn't care one way or the other about how you feel. If "anything I say goes in one ear and out the other" right now when you're still dating, it will get much worse after you've "started your life together" and you're being taken for granted. It's going to be like that about every disagreement and problem. Do you really want to make a life with someone with whom all compromises will only be one-sided always?

LW3-
Oye vey, not that again. Now that the Internet exists to keep in touch and ATMs where to pay bills, I very rarely use regular mail. Whenever I do, it means having to go to the post office to buy stamps or, if I already have the necessary stamps, remembering that there is a letter to be mailed when I see a postal box, which means the damn thing will be getting its corners creased in my purse for days. I'm very busy, the letter forgotten and collecting dust in my purse is one of many things on my mind, and I'm hardly the only one in that case.

Frankly, in my book, a Thank You is a Thank You, and I don't care if it's said in person, e-mailed, texted, tweeted, FaceBooked, phone called or sent by snail mail after being medievally illuminated by hand. And I'm turning 60 on January 22nd, so it's not because I'm part of the mannerless tweeting generation.

LW1 - here's a radical idea. Don't serve alcohol when your daughter is around. Lock it up or get it out of the house. If she brings it with her, thank her for the lovely bottle of wine or whatever, and then lock it up or get it out of the house. How can you expect your alcoholic daughter to stay away from your alcohol when you won't. This won't solve her problem but it will prevent her from getting drunk & ruining your family parties.

LW2 - you are dating a guy who blows off whatever you say and does whatever he was going to do anyway. If that is your idea of a good relationship & the way you want to spend the rest of your life, keep going the way you are. Otherwise, find someone else.

As for LW3 - blah blah blah. Thank you notes are good, people who don't write them are bad. We get it. Thank you for sharing another way that modern life is awful.

LW3: Sadly you are part of a dying breed...People who actually want others to be grateful for the gifts they receive. Unfortunately we live in a self-centered, self-absorbed, entitlement society which is noted in most of the responses to your letter. If it gives you any type of consolation, I work in higher education and, when this "electronic savvy" generation gets to college, they have the same attitude towards their parents who co-signed the loan or are actually paying for their education. And, when many of them flunk out or are expelled for having too good of a time, they leave (us at least) with a 40K loan that needs immediate repayment. Since these "modern generation" kids are un or under employed, guess who has to pay for said loan? The same parents who chastise you for expecting their kid to actually be polite and acknowledge you gift. And they do it without a thank you because that's how they taught their children.
Oh, and for those who will scream "That's never happened to me!" Or, "I don't know anyone like that!" Of course not; I meant everyone else but you.

@LouisaFinnell, I had the opposite reaction to LW3! I think her letter is so obnoxious, I wouldn't ever want to encourage her. Frankly, if that horrible uptight person was *my* grandparent, I'd certainly not reward their rotten behavior with a thank you card.

LW3, dial it down! There are plenty of *real* problems causing strife in our society. This ain't one of 'em.

LW1, a much more serious problem. You have a responsibility to make sure that you prevent her from drinking and driving, and if she somehow gets in the car drunk, there could be serious consequences if you don't call the cops. Maybe losing her job and her apartment is what needs to happen for her to get sober and stay sober.

Don't continue to enable behavior that could lead to her killing herself or someone else.

LW2: It would be good if you could have a discussion with your BF about what he wants... if he no longer wants the GED, then perhaps the right idea is to get a full-time rather than part-time job. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a janitor. It's hard, honest, necessary work. But make sure you know what he wants, and that -- if you are going to stay with him -- that you know you can support what he wants.

If he's willing to work hard -- either at the GED or a full-time job -- then it would be good to know that you will be able to support him. But if this is an issue where he's generally unmotivated and doesn't have much ambition... then you'll have to do some hard thinking about your future with this man.

LW1: Since you asked, my suggestion would be to stop inviting her to family functions. The suggestion by several posters to not serve alcohol does NOT mean she can't drink before and or slip some in to the party. Stop including her in family events.

PS: AA does not work for everyone, and I wish that people would stop looking at it as a "magic bullet" (my term from the other day). If your daughter wants help, AA can actually be a deterent to stop drinking because it is a PROGRAM, and a LIFESTYLE and can seem overwhelming to new people. And she knows what AA is. She doesn't want to work that program for whatever reason, but my suggestion would be to get her to an addiction counselor that deals with multiple treatment methods. Once she sees she has more than 2 alternative in life (drink or do AA), she may come around. Operative word being MAY.

LW2: I suggest you leave this relationship because you and your boyfriend have different priorities in life. If it's bugging you now, trust me, it will bug you more after you get married and have children. He's not going to change unless he wants to and for whatever reason, he doesn't want to now. Who's paying his way? is he living at home? 2 nights a week won't pay for an apartment, not even half, and in CA you mostly need a car. Who's paying for his car? Insurance? Cell phone? You want to do that when he moves out from his parents house? Because that, my dear is what most likely will happen. Until he gets his life together. Plenty of people have learning disabilities and do just fine. He needs to stop using that as an excuse not to succeed. I'm not against being a janitor, but doing it only 2 nights a week isn't enough to support himself and that's what he should be doing at this point in his life.

LW1 - I would not invite your daughter to family functions, as she has no right to ruin every one of them. Tell her why, as kindly as possible, then stop inviting her. And for heavens' sake, take away her car keys if she shows up anywhere - if she isn't drunk when she gets there, she probably will be by the time she leaves.
LW2 - Has the young man had help with his learning disability? This may be what is holding him back.
LW3 - You are not obligated to send gifts for which no appreciation is expressed. Send the grandkids a note telling them that since you haven't heard from them concerning the gifts they sent, you assume they didn't like them. Add that you are sorry about your lack of success in gift selection and that you will not displease them by sending gifts again. Then don't.

LW1--"When she drinks, she becomes a different person, and I almost don't recognize her." In very simple terms, here lies the crux of the problem. Sober Susan and drunk Susan are virtually two entirely different people. Unfortunately, they're joined in the mind. While you can reason with sober Susan, beg and plead that she get help; she's powerless to overcome the seductive allure of drunk Susan, who doubtlessly exhilarates her and makes her feel alive while at the same time destroys her life, her family, her friends. This is the face of alcoholism. The sad fact is, every time Susan lifts a glass of alcohol to her lips, she unleashes the icon of her own destruction. You've been the Al-anon so you know what you have to do. You need to form a united front with all the people who love Susan and stand firm that she isn't welcome if drinks. Period. Ensure that family events where Susan is present are "dry" in that nobody drinks and there isn't a drop of alcohol on the premises. If by some chance Susan has a drink (or arrives lit up) then immediately send her home. And, call the police if she's driving drunk. You won't be able to live with yourself if she kills an innocent and you did nothing to prevent it.

LW2--A 23 year old man typically has the emotional maturity of an "18" year old. He isn't willing to put in the hard work and wherewithal necessary to earn his GED because for three years so far, you've allowed him to coast along. You're both using his learning disability as a free pass to avoiding responsibility. As long as you're willing to wait patiently, he has no incentive to change. Someone needs to enlighten your boyfriend of the facts that marriage, running a household and raising kids requires emotional maturity, commitment, savvy and, yes, money. It's a lot harder work than finishing high school or swinging a mop around twice a week. Your boyfriend's reluctance to finish his GED should tell you volumes about his ability to function as a husband and father. It's time you laid your chips on the table. Inform your boyfriend that he's got a year to finish his GED. If he continues to procrastinate and make excuses, then I would recommend that you put some serious thought into why you would want to stay in the relationship.

LW3--"We rarely get a response from grandchildren to whom we send carefully selected gifts. I have concluded that it is mostly due to a pathetic lack of manners." Funny, I've concluded it's from a pathetic and greatly overblown sense of entitlement. Forget about receiving any sort of "heartfelt" response from these ingrates. They consider you "old" and therefore irrelevant. My advice to you is send a token card and don't hold your breath waiting for an acknowledgment.

LW1: Invite her over, and video her while she is making an ass out of herself. Then send her the video for Christmas.
LW2: If you are willing to pull the financial weight of this relationship for the rest of your lives together, be my guest. You are young. It will get REALLY old when you are in your 40's with children. Think about it.
LW3: NO MORE! NO MORE!!!!!

THIS LW didn't say anything at all about facebook thank yous not being good enough...she said she doesn't get ANY response. And that is rude. If anyone, child or adult, considers their time to be just too precious to waste on thanking someone for a gift, they are obviously far too busy to use the gift either, so Grandma should probably stop forcing them to waste the time it takes to open the gift too.

I know many of you are really tired of the thank you note debate, but here's my two cents: I'd love to be getting tons of gifts to have someone to thank them for.

I wouldn't completely blame the grandma for raising a terrible daughter/son; her child is an adult and may have been influenced by her peers, the stress of life, etc. and lost sight of what his/her mother may have taught him/her. She was rather crude in her "low class citizen" comments, but she does have a point, it does cheapen everything not to feel gratitude for things.

I hardly ever post, but I have personal experience with the other side of LW2's situation. After years and years of failure in school and being told how lazy and/or retarded I was, I didn't want to discuss my learning disabilities with anyone. I couldn't tell people what they wanted to hear, which was that I could do the things everybody expected me to be able to do. At some point I gave up trying to convince people that something was seriously wrong with the way my brain works and that I really was trying. I concentrated instead on hiding it as well as I could, to the point where even *I* sometimes believed I was fine, which was what everybody had been telling me for years. And I was terrified of work, because it was yet another place where people potentially could (and always eventually did) find out that something was wrong with me. I can't say for sure that this is the boyfriend's problem, but it might be worth considering.
I can't think of any amount of money that I would take to be twenty-three again. Forty-six is soooo much better.

Re: kai archie

If I cannot have some nice vintage with what is supposed to be a holiday meal, then this is ruining MY holiday. Why should *I* be the one punished because of some slush's criminally irresponsible intemperance? Radical indeed, to make the whole world pay for one person's lack of control.

You sound like that moronic air line, who locked down an entire plane for the gross misbehaviour of two.

@Shirley
True. We're all commenting on the original LW and others similar ones in the past, who were all uppitty because the Thank Yous they were getting weren't good enough for them.

Re: deb

I wouldn't want to be 23 again either. 46 would be wonderful! ;-)

Deb:

You make some great poins. I too have a learning disability, but was very lucky because my mom was a teacher and caught it before I actually even started school.

I have dyslexia, which has shown itself in many ways through my life. As I said, I was lucky because of mom, but I have friends of mine (and I am your age) who went undiagnosed because when we were kids, learning disabilities were thought to be character flaws ("Oh, Johnny is just lazy and not applying himself"). One of my childhood friends went undiagnosed until he was in my mother's class and she took him to get tested at a local university. BAM he went from being a slow learning and beligerent kid (he was frustrated and got angry, kids called him stupid) to being almost a genius in one semester. he couldn't READ because of the dyslexia, he saw things in a different way, but with therapy and patience he changed. This was when he he was 14 and to this DAY he still thinks he's stupid because of the socialization he grew up with.

BUT, the LW here is in a much different place. First of all, The LW's boyfriend knows he has a disability. That is WAY more than many kids in our generation had. there was no ADHD when we were growing up. there were kids who had to go to the nurses offices for hyper active stuff, but in my school, we had maybe 4 kids who did that out of about 1000 students. Now you would see at least 4 in a class of 25 going for meds. Disabilities such as dyslexia are caught for the most part in kindergarten or in first or second grade (when kids start to read). There is much more awareness about disabilities now and much more help available.

Second of all, a GED can be passed fairly easily. Three years is what it takes to finish a normal HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA even for learning disabled kids. GEDs are much easier to finish. Most people can complete a GED in about 3 months. Many junior colleges have prep courses for this, and also have tutoring available for people with learning disabilities.

I have complete sympathy for your situation, but am pointing out that the LW is in a different space. It's more about the desire to do anything that I have an issue with. 2 nights a week working? What does he do with the rest of his time?

PS: It's never too late to restart your education, deb. My friends and I, forthe most part, have kids who are either in their last years of high school or are in college and many of us are changing our careers. Why> Because now we can! One of my best childhood friends, another learning disabled kid, is building a business making soap out of her home, she sells to boutiques and on line and is raking in money. Another decided to go back to school and get her degree in special ed. Another one, got her degree in landscape architecture, but has found in the last two years she prefers apes to humans and is now working in a zoo! I started MY business two years ago. It's WAY cool to be this age, we have some of the hard work behind us and are free to do what we want. I agree, I would never give it up to be 23 again (although I do sort of wish I had the same figure, working on that though!)

@lisa, if you can't express yourself without calling other people names, then I understand why people say what they do about you. Here's my thought about what you said: If not having alcohol ruins someone's holiday , if someone can't enjoy a holiday meal or event without alcohol, maybe that person also has a problem with alcohol. If someone sees not drinking for a few hours as a "punishment", maybe that person has a problem with alcohol. If someone picks alcohol over helping their own child be sober for a few hours, that person has a problem with alcohol or maybe just terrible priorities. The daughter didn't ask for advice. Mom asked for advice about how she could prevent her daughter from ruining family events. Not serving alcohol is something she can do.

LW1: All the interventions in the world from friends and loved ones won't help if Susan doesn't think she has a drinking problem. Until she reaches that epiphany, it is unlikely that she will stop drinking. However, since Susan is 45, not that 45 is old, but when you think about it, Susan has probably been hoovering copious amounts of liquor since her teens. There is no telling what kind of shape her internal organs are in, especially her liver. So unless Susan stops drinking she may wind up with some serious health issues and not make even it to 50.

Re: kai archie -- I agree with you that not serving alcohol is an excellent way to control the situation. I'm glad too that it was mentioned in the advice that the family should call the police if she drives drunk -- their concern over her losing her job and apartment is ill placed....they should be concerned about her killing herself or worse yet, killing someone else and walking away from the accident like so many drunks do.

As for thank you notes, I think kids should be taught from an early age to send their grandparents or any elderly family member or really any person who sends them a gift a hand written note OR a phone call to say thanks. While it may take a bit more time than a facebook thanks or an email note, it shows respect for the person who cared enough about you to send you a present. It's not about the easy way out or how quickly you can pop off a note or the convenience of the person who received the gift. It's about showing appreciation for someone who did something nice for you (who didn't have to) and it shows good manners as well as good character to do it right.

@Deb: Your post was beautifully written and your point of view poignant. Thank you for sharing what had to have been very difficult for you to work through.
@ Lise: not having some wine ruins YOUR holiday? Why should you give it up? Well, perhaps I'm missing something here, but when you gather with family and friends isn't it everyone's holiday? Don't you sometimes make sacrifices for those you love (including giving up a glass of wine) because it is in their best interest? Isn't forgoing a glass of vintage well worth it if it helps someone through their sickness?
I say this as someone who likes my glass of vintage as well. I feel lucky that my family isn't prone to alcoholism and can bring wine to all our holidays. But it sure isn't going to ruin anything if it's not there - and I can't think of anything I wouldn't give up for my family. There's very little that I wouldn't give up if it would make a difference in the life of a stranger either.
@Shirley: well said on saying thanks! I think it's pretty strange how everyone loves being thought of and receiving gifts, but so many don't think that the thought of showing your appreciation is necessary. I love gifts. But I love even more than that the intangible gift that comes along with the material item - someone thought enough of me to make an effort and spend some money on me. That thought is the real gift, in my opinion , and it needs to be recognized - if only so that person will continue to want to think of me.

LW1: Don't buy alcohol for your parties and drink yours when she's not there. She can't handle it. It goes beyond personal "rights" and "comfort" for the sake of another person's safety. If you're resentful about not being able to drink "in your own home", you are part of the problem. Don't have alcohol at these parties--she can't get drunk at your house. AND, don't, don't, don't allow her to bring in her own. If she protests, tell her to go home.

LW2: He'll get his GED in his own time. But, right now, why should he? She's supporting him! No one can live on two nights a week at a minimum wage job. He has his milk, why would he want to have to work for it, too?

LW3: My 91 year old grandmother is vain in this same way. She never sent presents for the love of giving, she always gave to get the props from the thank you cards she wanted so badly. Even a phone call wasn't good enough for her when I was a teenager and had no money for my own stamps (my step father wouldn't let me use anything of his--even one stamp). Often, she'd send me "hello" cards, then would call a few days later to ask if I'd received it. Not only was I bad for not "acknowledging" it, but she'd then grill me over "what it looked like"--testing me to see if I'd even opened it. It was never a win for me. So, I was relieved when she stopped sending them. I do think it's a courtesy to send and receive than you notes for presents, but to send them to expect that is completely selfish and negates the entire reason we wend gifts to each other at all. It doesn't bother me if no one writes me a card. I just ask if the gift was enjoyed the next time I see the person. It's courteous, it's kind, and there's no guilt involved. Annies: ENOUGH WITH THESE LETTERS ALREADY!!!

Katie: AMEN to your last statement.

About the "to serve or not to serve" debate" in my family we haven't served alcohol at any major family function for years. One of my brothers quit drinking in the early 90s, he's never admitted to being in a program and it's none of my business if he has. What matters to me is HE doesn't drink, and from RESPECT FOR HIM we all refrain from drinking around him at family funtions. His decision also coincided with the welcoming of several grandchildren in our family, so it just made sense to stop the alcohol at the "formal" family functions. Who wants a bunch of booze around babies?

In the LW's case, I think the idea to not serve alcohol AND to send Susan home if she comes to the party lit up are good. I would take it a step further and tell her the next time she shows up that way will be the last. As I said, who wants a drunk around children? Not cool.

Re: Lise Brouillette...I barely remember being 46 and I 'dang shure' don't remember much about being 23 ~ ha! Sorry, at this time of year, I suppose I should have said HOHOHO!! (I'll be 63 on January 17th, btw.)

Re: kai archie
Actually, I DON'T usually call people names... But I'm blunt enough (or so I would have thought everyone can see) that, if I had wanted to call YOU moronic, I would have. The term was directed at the airline, not you. Sorry if you took it personally.

Do you really believe anybody who enjoys a drink of wine with a special meal is automatically a wino? It is not a question not being able to spend a few hours without drinking alcohol, it is a case of good wine complementing a good meal in a festive occasion, being able to cheer in goor humour with friends and family, and not being forced to live in Lent conditions because everybody is being punished for one single person. If that ONE person can't control herself, or accept being controlled AND relinquish the car keys, then she shouldn't be there.

@Kristen
"when you gather with family and friends isn't it everyone's holiday?"
That's right, it IS everyone's holiday, not just that one person who has a problem.

"Isn't forgoing a glass of vintage well worth it if it helps someone through their sickness?"
To tell you quite frankly, I would agree with you and kai archie on this, if the person was recently in recovery and doing her darndest best to stay sober. IF. It is not the case at all, she doesn't even SEE she has a problem, and not serving alcohol is only going to insure everyone is dry except her, because it will NOT prevent her from drinking, probably before and after the party. Wrong targetting. I stand by my advice:

Facing a family & friends intervention:
1. She should be videoed and shown what she looks like when she's drunk, belligerent and obnoxious. Let's see if she really thinks she's all that amusing when she sees herself in the harsh light of cold soberness.

2. She should be told in no uncertain terms that she gets whatever alcohol is served HER at a family function and nothing else. She plops the car keys in the host's hand upon arrival and if she shows up already drunk, she's turned back. No Ifs and no Buts.

3. If ANYONE in any occasion sees her taking to the road smashed out of her gourd, the police is called. Zero tolerance. So she may lose her job and her apartment. Well, she will anyway if she ends up in jail after killing someone. Nobody can force her to give up the beloved bottle if she won't, but enough already.This way the entourage will have done everything they can, and with a clear conscience.

Chris: as for taking the keys away, please allow me to quote you directly from your post yesterday:

"It's not your job to "protect the innocents" nor are you entitled to decide which legal, competent adults, specifically elderly drivers, get to drive and which ones don't."

Are you or anybody else at the party entitled to their OPINIONS as to whether or not Susan is "competent to drive? Sure. I would never argue that they weren't.

I'm just pointing out that you are incredibly inconsistent. Older people who have limited vision can be just a dangero
as a drunk.

Just making a point, Chris. Taking the car keys away from a drunk is a sign of compassion, not only for other people in the community, but for the driver. The same should be done for elderly drivers who are also not equipped to drive.

@ nanchan

Will you give it up? Your reading comprehension is off today and frankly, you're grasping at straws in your feeble attempt to discredit me. Read my post again. I said nothing whatsoever of taking away Susan's keys. Please allow me to quote from TODAY'S post:

"And, call the police if she's driving drunk. You won't be able to live with yourself if she kills an innocent and you did nothing to prevent it."

I stand by my statement yesterday, which by the way I noticed you took out of context. At least in that, you are consistent. It's not OUR job to decide who is and isn't competent to drive; it's the responsibility of the legal authorities (in this case, the police.) Yesterday, you and others were advocating sabotaging elderly folks cars to prevent them from driving. Let's be real clear here: what I advocated is legal; what you advocated is not.

Well that didn't take long.

Chris: thank you for your response. I stand by my post. You are inconsistent and need to figure out why you have to be so defensive when it is pointed out to you.

Anybody else? Look at Chris's comments from yesterday. They speak for themselves.

LW1: "Susan ruins every event we invite her to. Should we stop inviting her?" LOL How old are you? Isn't the answer evident?

LW2: So you can properly start your lives together? Huh? What have you been doing so far? Not living? Wow, anyway ..... face facts - your boyfriend doesn't want to get his GED. If he did - he'd have it by now. It's a pretty simple test - stupid people pass it all the time. Your boyfriend isn't ready for "adulthood". Maybe you should move on to a guy who is if its that important to you.

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Actually nanchan Chris isn't inconsistent. He believes common ordinary citizens should leave everything to the cops. This builds on his theme from the other day with the child molesting cousin. Chris believes we civilians have no responsibility beyond informing authorities and that it is THEIR job to protect the innocents not ours. Now, I'm not getting into whether I agree with him or not but it is pretty consistent. I get in the same sort of fights with my lawyer husband all the time; it's a legalist mindset about to whom duties belong. And what a duty is. Our house about exploded over the whole Sandusky thing and who was at fault and not until I told him to stop acting like a lawyer and start thinking like a moral human being.

For the record I am of the mind that if one does not notice their driving ability is horribly diminished and unsafe and does not ELECT to remove themselves from the road that is an obvious sign they are not of sound enough mind to even be making such a decision. That goes for any age by the way. Chris will now ask who I am to determine that. I have been down this argument road before. Let's leave it at this: Chris is very, very right that removing granny's spark plugs is illegal. He can be right and I'll sleep better at night with spark plugs under my pillow. Then we both win.

Alrighty then - over the past weeks we have removed gluten, meat, sugar, alcohol, dairy, cold foods, spicey foods, unmarried folks sleeping together, thieves, (please insert the ones I missed) from our holiday get togethers for the benefit of those they offend or those who are allergic to. Bah humbug! I think like the MIL - I'll just stay home, pig out and drink my wine. Where does it stop?

Re: nanchan
Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

wkh,

Very well said. Your final three sentences really hit the nail on the head. It's what I was thinking (but could not phrase so cleverly as you did).

I also believe, if we're going to be technical, that if stealing granny's spark plugs is illegal and therefore wrong, isn't it also illegal to steal the keys just because you *think* the person can't drive? Property is property. With regard to those who saw calling the cops as a solution, I query how practical that is? It's not like the cops are parked right next door waiting for your call. It could take them one to two or ten minutes to track down the person and do their thing. By then, drunken daughter could have done a lot of damage.

Chris, I respect your opinion--and understand the reticence of having to run about playing nanny to the world. I think wkh's and my viewpoint is an imperfect solution to the problem, but in my view, it is, unfortunately, the best of the options.

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!

LWs 1,2&3 - You can't change anyone eslses behavior only your hehavior and your expectations of them. Only an alcoholic will stop themselves from drinking, not you. Only the person getting the GED will do it, not you. Not getting thank yous? Stop sending gifts. Anything else is about as productive as banging your head on the wall and only you can stop you from doing that.

@Rick, very succinctly put! I guess the only caveat is that I still think for LW1 the family needs to not enable; meaning if she comes to a family function, don't let her drink or drive home if she does drink.
Otherwise, I think you nailed all of them in one swell foop!

In response to "Disgusted in Florida." My parents every christmas would make a list of all the relatives who had sent us presents and would write down what we got, making sure we would remember to write our thank you notes. It has been something that I have continued doing well into my late 20s and am glad for the guidance my parents gave me. I will say this though, I have not ONCE received a letter of thanks from my grandparents. I have received thanks for the wonderful thank you letter and how much it means to them, but never a "thank you" note mailed to me for sending them a gift. They have called and thanked me, which I appreciate, but the thank you note is not the reason I sent the gift. Nor would I ever think about not sending a gift because I didn't receive a letter back telling me how wonderful I was. I have read numerous columns in the Annie's Mailbox section of my paper about grandparents who disapprove of the horrible manners these children have and how they are done sending gifts. But I do wonder how many of these people send their grandchildren thank you letters. If you want to inspire your grandchildren to have good manners, take the time to teach by example. Getting older in age does not give you the right to forget your manners, just as being young does not excuse you from having them in the first place. Especially this time of year, give a gift because you are thinking about the child, the adult, the family member, not because you want praise for taking the time to give them something. I will continue to send my grandparents and relatives presents and thank you letters for them, not ever expecting anything in return.
Loving Granddaughter - no matter what

In a case like the LW describes, it actually IS a question of being able to do without alcohol for a few hours. The suggestion that the mother remove not serve alcohol when her daughter is coming over, is a good one. Like some others who have posted here, the mother may enjoy a glass of wine with a meal, and may appreciate it as a social lubricant. But if she's not willing to forego it in a situation like LW1 describes, it is likely she has an alcohol problem. She asked for suggestions, so I hope she's reading these comments.

I've had many social events at my house. When friends with severe alcohol problems (or drinking-and-driving problems) are planning on attending, I don't serve it, and ask others to please not bring any. If that "deprives" a few self-centered people of the "perfect" experience of just the right wine with their meal, that's the way it goes. If the wine means more to some guests than the safety of others, I would question their morals or their ability to set aside their momentary pleasures for a short time to help a friend, and suspect that they also have alcohol problems.

Re: sarah morrow

Thank you kindly for suggesting that I (and others like me) have a booze problem. Sarah, like I said, I would have no problem with the restriction if the person in question was in recovery and trying to help herself. She is not. I don't see any reason for anybody to be depriving themselves for someone who won't even admit she has a problem. IT is not a question of doing without alcohol for a few hours, it is a question of aiming at the right target.

LW2
If you want to put the kibosh on your relationship, keep trying to make the guy change. Either accept him the way he is, or release him and find someone you can stand.