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Dreams of "What If?"
Dear Margo: I'm a 20-something woman engaged to the best man I've ever known. I am beyond ecstatic to be getting married. My problem has nothing to do with him and everything to do with a guy who was one of my best friends in college. This guy and I …Read more.
Afraid of Little Girls
Dear Margo: Between the ages of 6 and 10, I was severely bullied, but I was given the impression by grownups that such behavior was perfectly normal for children and I shouldn't be so sensitive. (I now realize they probably did not pay attention to …Read more.
Every Problem Does Not Have a Solution
Dear Margo: Many years ago, I got a call informing me that my son was arrested and being held on $1 million bail. That was when I first learned that he is a pedophile.
He has just completed his 20-year prison sentence, and during that time I learned …Read more.
When You Live on a One-Way Street
Dear Margo: My patience has run out with the three living members of my family. My father, his mother and my brother have gone through periods of not talking to each other or to me. My brother wants nothing to do with my father or our grandmother, …Read more.
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If It's Something Dire, You Will Know About It
Dear Margo: My husband is an only child in his late 30s. My father-in-law is terribly selfish. We live several states away, and because he's the only blood relative left, my spouse does his best to keep in touch with his father. It is rarely reciprocated. Over the past several years, his father has had health issues, but we are never notified until a couple of days into a hospitalization or after he has undergone a procedure. This is not a protective act so his child will not worry about him. It is purely selfish. He tells us they were "busy" or makes up some excuse. This upsets my husband because he wants to be kept in the loop.
We received a call from his father this week saying he'd been admitted to the hospital two days earlier with a heart problem. When my husband asked why his wife hadn't called, he made up some excuse about how she was upset and busy tending to him. Tired of the excuses, I snapped. I called back and asked him why neither of them called. He started with the excuses, and I told him he was a selfish jerk and hung up on him. I told my husband I would apologize if he wanted me to. He said it didn't matter and sent his dad flowers. The truth is, I'm not sorry and felt it needed to be said, but I feel I should probably apologize. — How Could You Forget To Call Your Kid?
Dear How: I don't think this is what you were expecting to hear, but I am not in agreement with your premise at all. When you say, "This is not a protective act so his child will not worry about him," how do you know? Then there's the possibility that the effort to be in touch being "rarely reciprocated" suggests your f-i-l may not view being attached the same way your husband does.
Perhaps I see things differently than you because I had a mother who did things in the manner of your father-in-law. I, too, am an only child and learned from college on (when I no longer lived at home) that I often didn't know about medical difficulties until they were over. That was her way; that's what she wanted. I never felt I was owed a play-by-play of her life. Then, too, sometimes it is an added burden to put up with other people's upset. And by all means do apologize and try to readjust your thinking. Your husband's sending flowers should tell you something. — Margo, preferentially
Protocols Are Changing
Dear Margo: I read an essay about a gay male couple, soon to be married (both previously married to women), who wondered whether their former wives should either participate in the ceremony or "give them away." They were all friendly. The essay was by one of the soon-to-be grooms. I would be interested in your take on this as a straight woman. — Just Curious
Dear Just: I think whatever brides and grooms, brides and brides, and grooms and grooms want to do is fine. Second marriage ceremonies, in general, have a tendency to be looser. Come to think of it, some first-time marriages are pretty freeform these days, as well. The Wedding Police seem to have retired about 15 years ago.
It has been my experience that gay weddings have a certain esprit, perhaps because they are newly recognized. I, for example, was the "flower girl" (honest) at the wedding of two dear male friends seven years ago. And I even wore a floaty white top because there was no bride to compete with! So I guess my take, as a straight woman, is that anything goes if the two people getting married want it. — Margo, individually
Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers' daughter. All letters must be sent via the online form at www.creators.com/dearmargo. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.
COPYRIGHT 2012 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
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Comments
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21 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1: Agree with Margo. Lovely touch, that, calling someone just out of the hospital a "selfish jerk." Kind of indicates to me exactly WHY your FIL's wife doesn't call you in these events. There is a selfish jerk here, and it's not your FIL or his wife.
Like it or not, your feelings, and your husband's, are both way lower on the priority list than the ill person's. Having spent a good number of days in the hospital with my dad in the last few years, I can attest to the fact that hospitalization tends to exhaust both the patient AND the spouse/adult child, to the point where a phone conversation with someone at a distance only adds to the stress and exhaustion.: Is he better? What did the doctor say? Well, what did the specialist say? Is there anyone else nearby we can get an opinion from? What about surgery? How soon? Should I come now or would it be better to come next week after the surgery? OK, what can I send?
And if your FIL or his wife feel that the adult child (or adult child's spouse) will judge them for not calling soon enough, my vote is that they call when they're feeling up to dealing with your snits.
Comment: #1
Posted by: hedgehog
Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:27 AM
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LW1, I was five sentences in before I realized your fil even had a wife. The way you talk about him being "the only blood relative left" and how your husband tries to keep in touch with "his father" gave me the impression he was single. Clearly, you do not consider his wife to be family. And she has followed your example regarding your husband and you. Since she is most likely the one who would do the calling (pretty hard to phone someone when you're having heart trouble) why don't you and your husband start treating her like the family that she is, and perhaps she will start doing the same. And trust me, it is you who are the selfish jerk.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Jane
Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:01 AM
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@Margo -- well, I suppose LW1 MIGHT know that the father isn't trying to "protect" his son from worry because the father has never offered that as a reason for the lack of a phone call. Moreover, since the father apparently only very rarely sees fit to contact his son, there's a pattern of neglect here. But you are right that different people see, experience and value family relationships differently. I have a feeling that LW1 is upset on her husband's behalf because SHE feels that hubby is being denigrated/neglected/whatever by the father, and while it's understandable why she may see it that way, it's less clear to what degree her husband feels that way. She needs to follow her husband's lead on this. This is HIS father and HIS relationship -- and they're HIS feelings.
@hedgehog -- I couldn't agree more that the LW is totally dismissing just how much turmoil is involved for both the patient and the caregiver and that, frankly, they have bigger fish to fry when someone is hospitalized than to make sure the son knows about it. But, as I said above, I wouldn't discount the fact that this does appear to be part of a pattern that has nothing to do with health issues, since apparently the father only rarely initiates contact with the son. So, yes, I would definitely give the father and his wife a total pass when it comes to the various medical emergencies, etc., and LW needs to get over it and rethink her own behavior. But I can certainly understand her frustration on her husband's behalf with the PATTERN. Even so, as I said above, HIS father, HIS relationship, HIS feelings -- she needs to let this go. Apologizing would be a good first step.
@Jane -- like you, I had to go back and read the letter a couple of times to make sure I hadn't missed the fact that the father is remarried. You raise an extremely important point about LW making it pretty clear that she doesn't consider the step-MIL to be family. But I would also say we don't know if that's also how LW's husband treats her/thinks of her, so if HE treats her fine, so there is some gray area here. The point isn't to call the LW to tell her about her FIL, the point is to call the man's SON. Still, I would guess that you are right -- if LW1 would get off her high horse, I suspect the entire situation would improve. And again, it comes back down to: his father, his relationship, his feelings, so it's HIS LEAD that she needs to follow.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:40 AM
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LW1-
GIven what we have to work with, we have no way of knowing which one between the perception of the LW or that or Margo is the relevant one in this particular instance - it could be either or a combination of both.
What we do know is that things are not going to change at this point. Evidently, the LW's husband's parents are not as close as he would wish them to be, at least not in the same manner. The wise thing to do is to accept what you cannot change. It does not mean condoning it.
It would have been no hair off her back to apologize (if only for being hot-tempered) if her husband had felt the need for it, but if he says it doesn't matter, then she should go by that.
@Jane
I would not go so far as to take for granted that she doesn't consider the MIL part of the family. She said her husband is the one blood relation left. Technically, if her MIL was blood-related to her FIL, they couldn't be married!
Comment: #4
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:56 AM
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Re: Lisa - You wrote " Moreover, since the father apparently only very rarely sees fit to contact his son, there's a pattern of neglect here."
I have to disagree here because I have a different way of seeing this than a lot of others. The father might, like me, be one of those people who doesn't need or want to talk a lot. I hate being on the phone, people who enjoy being on the phone AND have a greater need to be in more constant contact tend to be the ones calling. My mother for instance, she calls me more than I call her. It's not that I don't want to talk to her or love her dearly, it's just that my need to talk to her (or anyone else) tends to be less than most people - I am more of an introvert, I do love my quiet time, and I talk constantly throughout the day so by the time I'm at home I'm more than ready to just be quiet.
It's very possible that this is the dynamic between dad and son. Or he just doesn't care. Either way, I'm astounded at the wife's sense of entitlement and freedom to make demands of people she probably doesn't know very well.
Comment: #5
Posted by: kristen
Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:36 AM
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LW1--"The truth is, I'm not sorry and felt it needed to be said..." Then why are you worrying about it? Your husband's father does sound like an insensitive drama queen and you did the right thing by calling him on it. He uses his medical drama as a means to control and manipulate his son into feeling guilty and inadequate. His excuses are merely cover for what he feels were his own shortcomings as a father; he expects your husband to compensate. Your FIL is passive aggressive. You said your piece and now I urge you not to apologize. The minute you do, your husband's father will be vindicated and he'll continue his emotional machinations with renewed vigor. That is if he survives his latest hospitalization intact. Keep your fingers crossed.
LW2--"I read an essay about a gay male couple, soon to be married (both previously married to women), who wondered whether their former wives should either participate in the ceremony or "give them away."" These guys seem out of their minds. I'm certain their former wives, while (perhaps) happy that their former husbands have finally found their true selves, would prefer to keep their eyes firmly facing forward and forget about participating in any nuptials of their former spouses.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Chris
Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:51 AM
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LW1 - they may not have told you about the hospitalization(s) because it appears from your letter that you have a tendency to make everything about you, and make it all high drama. You've had your say and tell them what you thought of them, so you've demonstrated that you can dish it out; it's time now to demonstrate that you can "take it" and look long and hard at the possibility that you're the person in this picture who needs to change.
'
The only thing I agree with about your letter is that it can be frustrating when people don't communicate. But they've likely been that way all of their lives, and are unlikely to change. Why look for them to be like your family (or perhaps a substitute for something missing in your own family?) Apart from which,if you've been simmering with resentment about the communication issues for years, I don't blame them really for being shy about calling you. (And by the way, calling a heart attack survivor days after the event, when he's barely getting back on his feet, and screaming at him and putting emotional demands on him, is highly questionable ethically. It could even trigger another attack. Please do NOT do that again.
Re: LW2, I agree with Margo's observations about gay weddings. The ones I've attended have been fun. (Gay male weddings in particular. The lesbian weddings I've attended have been more somber affairs, more like typical weddings I'd say with an underlying tension... straight and gay women tend to bring a huge amount of emotional baggage to their weddings, more I'd say than men do.) I like the idea of the ex-wives giving their ex-husbands away, if all of the parties are into it and can see the humor in it. (Though is the first marriages were set up on deceptions or self-deceptions, the humor might fall a little flat.)
Comment: #7
Posted by: sarah morrow
Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:55 AM
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Lisa, I'm more inclined to give FIL a pass than the LW. The guy's in his late 60s, early 70s -and that tells me a fair amount about him that's statistically likely.
He's of a generation where men didn't do the social calendar, the chitchat calls just to see how you are, or cook and arrange holiday meals. His first wife (since he's the only one "left," his first wife must no longer be alive) probably handled all that, and probably the bulk of the nurturing in childrearing. Men in this era didn't talk about their feelings, ya know?
I'd also guess his hearing may be going -- making phone conversations less appealing than they already are. (Email? Maybe. Some take to it, some are frustrated by it.)
But at any rate, I'd almost suspect LW was trying to estrange FIL even more! Calling the guy a selfish jerk is NOT behavior that's likely to have him inviting his son for Easter dinner or send "Thinking of you" flowers to his DIL. She quite frankly sounds like someone I wouldn't want to be around any more than I absolutely had to.
h
Comment: #8
Posted by: hedgehog
Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 AM
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I can relate the LW1 about not being told of medical emergencies. It was the next day or so before my mother called to let me know my elderly father had cut his thumb off with a power saw! And I realized years later, that out of 3 daughters in our family, I was always the last to be told anything, like when dad finally passed away. How can that not make you wonder about your place in the family? And yet, the one who was told first while he was still struggling with life support - she didn't gather her spouse & dog and jump in her car in the middle of the night and drive 400 miles through scary mountain passes to be with mom asap. Although I never made a fuss about it like LW1, as I think that was out-of-line, I cannot say it didn't hurt and taint my feelings about the family, even distancing myself from them. That wasn't the answer either as I've had to live for years now knowing it was 5 years after my mother's death that I even found out she had died! I think all you can do with families sometimes is be happy with the crumbs they throw you - better you know later rather than never.
Comment: #9
Posted by: CJ Perry
Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:10 PM
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ALL,
I am LW1. Margo and all who have commented, except for Chris, missed the whole point of my letter. This is about a selfish man who doesn't care about anything except himself.
To give you all some insight, this is a man who never sends birthday cards but writes a two page email consisting of horrible guilt trips if we don't send him one on his birthday. He rarely just calls us to talk or tell us how he is doing, we must call him. If we don't call him for a week or so, we get a 5 minute message on our answering machine with guilt trips about how we haven't called him. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even know what my husband or I do for a living, because he only talks about himself.
He was emotionally abusive to my husband growing up, and my husband has been in counseling for years because of it. Still, for reasons I don't understand, he loves his father and still wants to keep in contact with him. Not every day, but once or sometimes twice a week. I support him in this because it is important to him.
Last spring, my FIL was admitted to the hospital. We called him, and kept calling, and leaving messages, but we didn't hear from him for almost three weeks! My husband had a long talk with him then about how he just wants to be kept in the loop (NOT A PLAY BY PLAY) of things like this. As I said in the letter, we are several states away and cannot just drive over there. We are also not people who keep calling/asking a million annoying questions. A simple "your dad is in the hospital with chest pains. Right now we don't know anything but will call you tomorrow." Even a text would be okay with us. I don't think we are asking too much. Not even close. I will say it again, THIS IS HIS ONLY CHILD. It is not like they have 50 calls to make.
When I referred to 'his wife', I was simply replaying what I said to him on the phone "why didn't (name) call?" but didn't want to use her name in the letter.
Why am I worrying about this? Because he is my husband, I love him, and I have to watch him hurting every time his dad doesn't care enough to call. I'm not on a high horse. I'm just tired of this kind of inconsiderate behavior.
I decided not to apologize, because I still think it needed to be said - that his father needed to know it is selfish not to keep his only child informed of major events such as his hospitalization.
Shame on all of you for your nasty comments and assumptions.
Comment: #10
Posted by: watchingowls
Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:14 PM
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LW1: I agree with Margo. You and your husband are acting like idiots. Your husband needs to accept that his father will never be the man he wants him to be. You and your husband have no right to demand more than he's willing to give. You're not children. Stop embarrassing yourselves.
Right before I was about to post I read your reply, watchingowls, but it doesn't change my response. If your husband is stupid enough to chase a toxic man and you're stupid enough to support his moronic efforts than you're getting exactly what you deserve. Happiness is not a gift we receive from others - so stop expecting others to change so you can be happy. You can't control others but you can control your reaction to them. It is incredibly stupid to give others so much power over yourselves.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Diana
Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:33 PM
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@ watchingowls
Thank you so much for coming in BTL and filling in the missing bits of the story. As I thought, your FIL sounds like quite the piece of work! Alas, dear, like all things, this too shall pass... as in pass away! Good luck to you and your husband!
Comment: #12
Posted by: Chris
Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:33 PM
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Chris, your reply to LW1 aka watchingowls was perfect, and I totally agree! The son of a b**** deserved to be told off!
Comment: #13
Posted by: Paul
Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:22 PM
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watchingowls -- scold us if it makes you feel better, but we ain't the ones adding to your husband's pain.
And your telling the FIL off was hardly the path to remake him into the sensitive father your husband wants.
Yeah, it made YOU feel better to stand up to a man who just had a heart attack. If that's what you wanted, the emotional satisfaction, then that's just awesome.
But did it make your husband feel better or did it add to his pain? He sent flowers -- so it's the latter. He wants to maintain a relationship with his father,for whatever reason. Your actions are making that tougher for him. You are putting him in the middle. Sure he's not going to ask you to apologize --- that's what the flowers did, essentially -- he just wants to avoid a fight with you.
Figure out a healthy way to deal with your frustration that doesn't involve telling off your father-in-law (running, rearranging the furniture, going out dancing, beating the throw rugs). This is SO not your battle to fight, and the white charger you're trying to ride in to save your husband's honor is only mucking up the battlefield further.
If you want to help your husband, be kind to him and listen to him, and when he appears to be stuck on repeat without making any headway, offer to help him find a therapist to work this out.
Comment: #14
Posted by: hedgehog
Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:58 PM
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@watchingowls -- I don't know if your letter was edited down or if you just kept it short, but the added information makes a difference (for me, at least). As I thought, even though the medical issues are the example you used and the most recent medical issue is what set you off and inspired this letter, they are merely part of an overall pattern of behavior. If your FIL has been abusive and continues to be manipulative and toxic, it's hard to understand why your husband clings to him -- and it must be extremely difficult for you stand by and watch it.
Something we see a lot of at the various advice columnists (IMHO) is that they get focused on the one example being given instead of understanding that the example being given is just that -- a small sample that is part of a bigger pattern. Then they tailor their advice specifically to that one example, rather than addressing the underlying cause/issues. It is unfortunate that the example given -- and the one that set you off -- had to do with not finding out that the father had been in the hospital, because I do think it's understandable that calling you wasn't their priority.
Even so, while I might change the tone of my original response, the general content is the same. This is your husband's father and your husband's feelings. Like any loving spouse, you want to come to his aid any way you can and stop him from getting hurt over and over again. The sad truth is that you cannot. Your husband has to decide how he wants to deal with his father, and the best you can do is try to be supportive of him.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:03 PM
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Re: watchingowls
I understand your frustration but, in all fairness, you have to admit that, in its published version, the letter up above did not give much information as to who was this or who was that - YOU may know, because you have countless other examples of his shenanigans to go by besides what you told Margo, but we do not. Even then, I don't remember saying anything more besides exactly that, nor heaping opprobrium on you, so I don't think I have any reason to feel shamed.
What Lisa said remains true: regardless of how incensed you may feel at the spectacle of your husband being emotionally bruised and battered, this uncaring, selfish man is his father, not yours, and your husband is the one who decides how he wants to deal with him. I would urge you to read "Toxic Parents" by Susan forward, so that you understand better the dynamics involved and what makes your husband want to maintain a relationship: he keeps hoping he'll win his love. Sad, but common. All you can do for him is love and support him.
It also remains true that you can only accept what you cannot change. Accepting does not mean approving, neither does it mean tolerating the unacceptable. It merely means accepting that this man will not change - and he will not. You know that. So getting yourself worked up in a tizzy over his little mind games and great love affair with himself can only make your blood pressure shoot up 30 points, nothing more. He's not worth it, so don't do that to yourself.
Thank you for posting, it is always rewarding when some LW comes BTL.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:12 PM
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Watchingowls, It's so hard to watch our beloveds' heartache caused by a toxic family member. It's likely that your frank talk with the father will not change his behavior but one can hope. The best that you can do is never expect anything from his father then you won't be disappointed. Through life there will be people like your FIL that you just have to endure without expectations. Please don't be upset with us here Below The Line. Margo has to edit the letters so much that it is sometimes difficult for us to get the true story. This is one of those times. So, thanks for filling us in on the whole story. I had a thought, what if you came up with a silly name for your FIL, like "the Guilt Monster". This would be a secret name that only you and your husband use. So instead of "Have you called your father?" you could say "Have you fed the Guilt Monster?" "What are you going to feed him? A bologna sandwich?" "Maybe a bran muffin would help with his constipation 'cause he's so full of shit!" ;-)
Comment: #17
Posted by: Claudia
Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:39 AM
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Re: watchingowls-what with letter editing and all that it often happens that key points in a letter are omitted and those of us btl don't have all the information needed to make a sensible reply. please don't mind diane. she's like that to everyone and is not known for compassion.
Comment: #18
Posted by: alien07110
Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:04 AM
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LW1: Some of that info should have been included in the original letter, like how he was verbally abusive, etc. Otherwise, it makes you sound bad. Ok, yes, he does sound selfish. However, I also suspect when someone goes to the hospital, they simply don't have time to call people until the next day or so. His wife might not be in the mood to be making calls and discussing the situation until she knows more from the doctor anyway. I'd stay out of it. They don't seem to be imposing on your time, just are annoying. No need for you to say anything to FIL, just "hope you get well soon" and leave it at that. Just keep your distance, but since your husband still wants him around, be cordial.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Salty
Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:08 AM
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Re: watchingowls
Not sure if you know it, but Margo is also published at wowowow. There are some comments there on your letter as well: a few of which take your side. Please go check out the comments over there.
Comment: #20
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:04 AM
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Thanks to all for your encouragement after I posted the clarification, and thank you for the book recommendation. I would have included all of that info in the letter, but I didn't want to make it three pages long!
And yes, the medical is just one example of a long, long, long line of inconsiderate and downright selfish behavior.
I will certainly check out the comments on that other site too.
Comment: #21
Posted by: watchingowls
Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:53 AM
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