Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - suggest you take your perspective on this to Jarrod's parents & enlist their help in getting him to a doctor. This is a problem they need to be working on,too, and the first step is for Jarrod to see a doctor & have a physical, to see if there is something physically wrong that could be fixed. The doctor can advise him on what to do next, and a therapist may be helpful. However, this is a hard problem to solve unless Jarrod wants to solve it, too, or is so tired of feeling like this that he is willing to try to make it stop.
LW2 - you don't "know" that doing the most direct thing, asking him to stop, won't work. You just think so, but without trying it, you don't know . However, you do know that conversation & turning up the radio don't help so why keep doing them. It's not like the guy has a lot of leverage - what's he going to do - refuse to ride with you? Who would that inconvenience? Tell him it bothers you & ask him to stop.

LW2 Can't your wife drive your parents around?

Whoops! I meant HER parents.

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LW3 refers to the second letter on 26 February 2013 (Technologically Impaired in New York).

LW2 - From what the LW says, this isn't anything new since he says his wife has been dealing with it all her life, so I'm not hopeful that his FIL will be able or willing to change at this stage in life. If the LW feels that it will really start WW III to mention it, then having his wife drive and using headphones might be a solution. Taking separate cars seems a little drastic, and obviously the in-laws will wonder why he's doing this. Possibly his wife can explain to her father that it's distracting to the LW for her father to keep up the singing, but he may not be able to break a habit that's so ingrained. It's worth a shot though to mention it to him, but say it distracts the LW from his driving, not that he finds it terribly annoying.
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One other thought - since the LW mentions turning up the radio to drown his FIL out, maybe if they leave the radio off all together and stick to conversation only, that may help the problem. Probably not, but it's worth a try.

LW1: Enlisting Jarrod's parents to help, and encouraging him to make more use of his college's resources, are about all you can do, I think. It's sad and hopefully Jarrod can get some help, because it seems pretty clear from your description that he's depressed.

LW2: Why would you want to create such an unpleasant standoff with your elderly father-in-law? He probably barely realizes he's even doing it, so I think you are making this too personal. Either let your wife do the driving and take another car, skip the events altogether, or try the headphones trick mentioned by the Annies. Or learn to harmonize with him. I think your wife would appreciate your continued patience with this situation, which really sounds like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

LW3: While it's nice that your children did this, I think it's probably bad advice to suggest that the original LW not learn to text -- especially since she *already* used email, so she's not exactly technophobic. Plus, keeping up with technological changes, learning new things, engages the brain and can ward off deterioration and symptoms like dementia and Alzheimers. While you can encourage your kids to go "old school" to stay in touch with grandma, there's nothing wrong with simultaneously encouraging grandma to "keep up with the times", either.

I'm just curious. How does one become a GF to a depressed teenager. I'm just wondering how did the courtship go?

LW1 - Unfortunately, unless Jarrod agrees to cooperate, there isn't much that can be done for him. The LW can talk to his parents and ask for their help in talking to him, and hopefully getting him to agree to a checkup with his doctor. He definitely sounds as though he's suffering from depression, but there also could be some undiagnosed physical issue that's causing him to feel the way he does. Other than that and using whatever resources are available at his college, there really isn't much that can be done without his cooperation.

LW1 - Enlisting the help of his family for him to see a doctor is a good suggestion. You could also offer to go with him to see a counselor since he's scared to go. But if he refuses, there is nothing you can do. You can't force him. I hope his family will offer some help. Good luck.

LW2 - Oh, I hear ya! I currently work with a woman who sings. Loudly. Constantly. And not well, either. She sounds like Yoko Ono on helium. Several people have asked her to stop and she gets all offended. Apparently we're supposed to enjoy her crappy singing?? She refuses to stop. If saying something to your FIL will start WW3, then I suggest you let your wife drive them and you stay home. Seriously, I wouldn't put up with that if I didn't have to. It really is like nails on a chalkboard.

You could also try to sing along and whistle and hum along with him. People who usually do that hate it when others join in so they stop. Didn't work with my office American Idol wannabe but maybe it's worth a shot with your FIL.

LW3: Mike H makes a great point that it's imperative to learn new things to keep your brain sharp. Learning new technology is an excellent way to work your brain's logic center, and have something to show for it instead of just doing puzzles.
And really? The grandmother shouldn't feel obligated to "invest" in a texting feature, but the children should buy postcards and stamps and take the extra time to write by hand and mail them? Even if the grandmother pays per text (instead of getting a bundle), it's still usually only about 20 cents per text (I realize that could get expensive if they start texting back and forth alot, but isn't that what she would want, communication?)

From a 1930s survey: "Most people saw telephoning as accelerating social life, which is another way of saying that telephoning broke isolation and augmented social contacts. A minority felt that telephones served this function too well. ...Perhaps a few of the oldest felt anxious around the telephone, but most people ... seemed to feel comfortable or even joyful around it." Apropos, because most older people in the 20s/30s would rather take the time to "go calling" than deal with getting a phone, and expected people who wanted to get in touch with them to come over (or send postcards, I imagine).

I went to college back in the day when a long distance call was expensive. My parenta and I talked once a week, at a set time, always after 5pm! Mom and I wrote letters to each other, and to this day I still enjoy reading those letters. They bring back a lot of memories.
I do think it is important to keep up with the technological world, but having written correspondence is priceless! Plus texting is more "in the moment" vs a letter which covers many happenings.

LW3: She shouldn't invest time learning how to text? Seriously? WHAT is there to learn? That's like saying, don't feel obligated to spend time learning how to dial a phone, or how to push that button to turn on your TV, or turn that knob to operate your stove. Only technically savvy people can do those things. LOL! Give me a break. It takes less than one minute to "learn" how to text, and it has nothing to do with being "technically savvy". A washing machine is more complicated to use, yet no one washes clothes by hand by they're not "technically savvy" enough to operate a washer, do they? If you know how to punch a phone number, then you already know how to text. Just punch in the number, type out your message, and hit "send".

LW1--"He's convinced no one can help him." And thus, nobody will be able to help him which is handy because 'Jerrod' can continue to use his lack of friends and depression as an excuse view himself as a helpless victim whom the world has abandoned. See how that self-fulfilling prophecy works? People like Jerrod are pessimists of the highest degree; for them, the glass is always half-empty; there are always reasons why someones suggestions to solve problems won't work. Jerrod might as well be crippled. He refuses to roll the dice in life and therefore he'll never move off of 'Start', meanwhile everyone else around him is playing the game and making their way around the board. My advice is to be frank with Jerrod. Instead of feeling sorry for him and wondering what you can do, instead ask Jerrod point black what HE is willing to do. If the answer is nothing, then you'll come to realize why he has no friends and his family staged an intervention to get this parasite out of their home. Don't let him drain your energy too.

LW2--Your Father-in-law is passive aggressive. He knows full well how irritating his singing, whistling and humming is and does it to irritate you into doing or saying something that will allow him to lash out at you. What you need to do is fight fire with fire. Get a large, clunky (obvious) pair of noise cancelling headphones and wear them each and every time you drive your FIL around. Say nothing about the headphones, simply put them on when you get in the car and take them off when you reach your destination. No talking, no radio, no communication; just you, gramps and the headphones. He'll either stop annoying you once and for all or he'll learn to hail a cab.

LW2- I understand your frustration but I don't have much different suggestions from what others BTL have given but I totally understand where you are coming from. I have a coworker who used to whistle all day long. He did this loudly while in his office and while walking up and down the halls passing my office about 20 times a day. It was beyond annoying and was interfering with my work. I finally told him how I felt in the most respectful way I could conjure up (he's quite a bit above me but our head boss at the time had asked him to stop more than once because it annoyed him too) and it took a few days for him to finally stop. I just said to him that I wasn't trying to be a PITA but that his constant whistling was interfering with my ability to work. He seemed annoyed that I would say something but then he did stop. I think it is a habit that is ingrained into your FIL's head..

At this point there's not much to lose if LW2 just asks his father-in-law to stop singing. At least it's a lot less rude than wearing headphones or turning the volume on the radio up.

He reminds me of my father. Once, as a child, I asked him to stop singing. I still get war flashbacks.

Tune the radio to NPR. Pledge drive this week which may be more annoying than his singing. Ha ha ha. I can't imagine trying to sing over Paula Poundstone. Great programing, entertaining and informative. (and I'm the only commercial) If GP gets to loud either ask him to be a bit more quiet or turn up the sound.

Ugh Paula Poundstone is still around?? Gross...

Oof, my biggest pet peeve in the entire world is whistling and humming. Michelle, I would go absolutely bonkers if I were in your work situation. How terrible. I don't understand how some people can be so clueless. If someone approached me and said "Your X is really annoying" I would apolozie and NEVER EVER do it again (I would probably overly obsess about it at home for the next few weeks, because I'm like that.) I can't imagine acting offended. Lady sounds like a real piece of work!

LW1: Do not take ownership of Jarrod's issues. He has the makings of a perpetual victim. No one hands you a job or a home, you have to stand on your own two feet. If he can't handle the “stress” of getting a job, how can he handle the stress regular life? We women have a compelling urge to nurture inside us and for some reason we look at ourselves as saviors to these guys, (aka users) we think we can “save” them and in fact they'll suck the life out of you and not thank you. Jarrod will draw you in and make you “feel” responsible for his living. If you try to leave he'll threaten to kill himself or he may make a shallow attempt just to make you feel guilt. Before you know it, he will have encompassed you like an octopus and getting away from him will be even harder and I guarantee you'll be miserable. In fact, I'd run like hell right now. I've seen it happen too much. Run girl run!! Let Jarrod figure himself out, find a guy who will stand on his own two feet, and ignore the urge to make Jarrod “whole”!

Re LW#2------
I am of the firm belief that when another person is doing you a giant favor that you can't do for yourself (like being your chauffer) You darn well should accommodate them in any way you can.
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Example: I chauffer my mom around a lot. And it isn't even because she has no one else to do it------she just prefers to go with her daughter instead of her husband, because then she can have 'mother-daughter' fun.
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She used to ask me to take her grocery shopping, and I would say that I would, and could pick her up about 9:00 am. She would then try to change the time to midafternoon, because then it 'gave her a nice something to look forward to in the middle of the day', whereas if she went in the morning, then she had nothing but a boring afternoon, boring evening, etc. until bedtime. She didn't stop to think that taking her also broke up MY day--------start a project, stop in the middle, go grocery shopping, go back to the project-----as compared to getting her errand out of the way, THEN working, uninterrupted, on MY stuff. (I finally just started saying "The only time I have available is in the morning. Sorry."
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So I kind of don't see a problem with asking FIL to please stop the noise while you're in the car. He probably isn't doing it on purpose, but if he pitches a fit if asked, maybe try not lugging him around for awhile, and tell him the reason------that his singing, etc., makes you want to climb the wall. People can stop unconscious habits if they really have an incentive to, I believe. And if he's ungracious enough to get mad when asked, let him sit home for awhile. Or have your wife take him, and you stay home.
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I've never been much on the "Just tolerate it, because he's old/obnoxious/set in his ways, etc." If someone does you a favor, you reciprocate in any way that you can, even if it means being silent on the drive, if it's what they want.

LW1 -- You've gotten good advice. Just want to emphasize one point that has already been made: do not let Jarrod suck you into his blackhole. Actually, it sounds like he already has. Of course you want to help him, but if he is unwilling to help himself, there is nothing you can do. At some point, you need to focus on taking care of yourself, not him. Tell him you love him and want to help him, but you can't help him if he won't take the first step toward helping himself, and you cannot stand by and watch him continue to cripple himself.

LW2 -- A couple of interesting points about your letter. You say that your wife seems oblivious, which suggests you have never talked with her about it. And while you have made several passive-aggressive attempts to put a stop to the behavior, it seems you have never attempted to talk to your FIL about it, either, for fear of starting WWIII. You then say: "No one has ever had the gumption to poke this wasp nest with a stick." Well, I certainly hope you've added yourself to the list of people who have refused to tackle this problem head on. Before you do anything, start by having an actual conversation with your wife. Tell her this bothers you. Ask her if he's always been this way (you say she's been "subjected to this her whole life" -- but to be honest, I don't trust that you've ever really talked with her about this). Tell her you want to find an amicable way to get him to stop and think that at this point, the only thing that has a prayer of working is to simply ask him to please stop. As for headphones -- just be sure you're not the one driving if you use them, as the driver needs to be able to hear what's going on around him.

LW3 -- I don't recall the original letter on this and haven't gone back to check on it. Certainly, if the LW is really uninterested in learning to text and/or doesn't want to pay for texting, then she shouldn't feel obligated to start texting simply because it will make it easier for her grandchildren to contact her. On the other hand, if she has expressed an interest in learning to text, then I don't know why you would discourage her. One of the potentially great outcomes of a grandparent taking the time to learn a new technology is that the grandchildren can be the ones to teach them how to do it -- giving both generations an excuse and an opportunity to interact and learn from each other. I remember when we bought my grandmother a stereo system with a tape cassette player (yes, this is before CDs and downloadable music). To that point my grandmother had only ever had a record player, so she had no idea how to work the stereo, much less the tape cassette player. My brother and I showed her how everything worked. It was fun for us to be in "teacher mode" -- a role most children rarely play with their elders -- and it gave us all something to talk about. She called us several times to ask questions here and there until she got the hang of it, so it also gave her an excuse to call to talk to her grandchildren (sure, grandparents shouldn't "need" an excuse -- but it's nice to have one).

LW1 -
My first reaction about the intervention was, "how insensitive, why don't they push him over the railing of the bridge while they're at it", but frankly, now I think I can see why his friends have lost touch. Friendship is all about supporting someone you care about when they're in need, but when things never, never EVER get better and the person poo-poos and shoots down every helpful suggestion, then the people in the entourage start getting depressed themselves. When every constructive suggestion is met with ground-to-air anti-missile, the friends eventually give up trying to help someone who doesn't want to help himself. And I would wager that's pretty much where his family stands right now.

As much as you're concerned, if he stubbornly refuses to change his attitude, at least long enough to seek help, there may not be anything you can do, and I don't see this ending well.

If he is past graduation and in college already, and his parents are pushing him to move out, I have to assume he is over 18. Compelling someone who is of legal age can be difficult. Talk to a lawyer for a advice consultation (if you're in college yourself, there may be free legal aid available on campus) and see what the possibilities are about someone who is openly suicidal in your neck of the wood. If anything can be done, talk to his family and get them on board. Considering they've already staged an intervention, they'll be cooperative, I think.

He'll be stinkingly mad and will feel betrayed of course, but that is better than ending up six feet under, which is where he's headed right now.

Perhaps if, instead of feeling sorry for him and trying to placate his moods, YOU got stinkingly mad at him yourself, it would shake him out of his whining? Unfortunately, it may also push him in the other direction. This is not easy.

What the Annies said - these resources may have other suggestions as well.

LW2 -
What can you do? You can poke the wasp nest with a stick, or get your wife to do the driving and wear nice, big healdphones connected to a nice, loud MP3 for the entire trip, as the Annies suggested. You could also learn to tune him out yourself like your wife obviously did, but at your age you may need professional help for that. And it won't happen overnight, IF at all possible... doubtful that you can learn to "tune out" something that has already reached the unsufferable point. Perhaps with hynosis?

If you can't do that and if your wife doesn't drive, then poking the wasp nest it will have to be, because anything that is increasingly unbearable while you're driving is actuallly a life-threatening hasard. If you threaten to stop driving them altogether, perhaps it will shut him up. And I don't care about what your wife says. She is not the one driving (and if she doesn't drive, she has no conception of the concentration needed), and she obviously has no idea of what you're going through - for her, this is ho-hum, as she's had a lifetime to learn to to tune him out. You haven't.

You're a lot more patient than I am. I would long ago have yelled at the selfish old geezer to STFU already, WW III or not - he ain't gonna match MY mouth.

LW3 -
Oh, so your children don't do this to YOU, because YOU taught them better? Aren't you Miss Goodie-Two Shoes here, whoopie-doo, bravo, bravissimo, let's hear a bi-i-i-ig round of applause for you-you-YOOOO! Let's schedule a parade now, because "Soon-to-Be-Grandmother" has gotten better results than "technically Impaired in New York", woo-hoo, SHE WON!

Well, guess what, it's not enough to teach, the kids also have to pay attention and comply, so you're not the only one who deserves credit here. Furthermore, the original LW (thank you, Miss Pasko) was the grandmother, not the mother, she therefore had had no control over the texting grandchildren's education, and the parents didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with them ignoring their grannie's letters. So this smug, bragging of yours is very, very much out of line. Yecch. Kindly stuff it.

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@Mike H #6
"I think you are making this too personal."
He does say he thinks this is rude, but nowhere is there any suggestion that he believes the FIL is aiming that at him personally. And he does say this "grates on him like fingernails on a blackboard", and is becoming "increasingly unbearable". This has nothing do do with being personal, it has to do with something that is incredibly distracting, to the point of being car-crashing potential.

And frankly, if he just turns up the volume when the LW turn on the radio, then he IS being obnoxious on purpose. Whether it's directed to the SIL "personally" or he'd be that aggravating with anyone else is besides the point. Like Chris said, he can put a clamp on it or learn to call a cab. I mean, good flamin' grief, enough already.

@EB #7
They were sitting next to each other in class and she started the conversation? ;-D

He had friends back then and would have appeared normal. It sure looks like the end of high school and the change of pace and scenery that comes with the start of college sent him spiraling down, and that he was nowhere near that bad in high school.

@Michelle #9
Two suggestions about your American Idol wannabe:
1. Gang up and complain en masse to her supervisor.
2. Tape her with a good machine and have her listen to the recording. What you hear when you sing is not what everybody else hears, because your voice is amplified by your own body and whatever you hear sounds much, MUCH better. My guess is that she never heard herself the way others do. (Took me two years to get used to MY voice when I was a voice student, and I'm supposed to be talented...)

You may have to push the "play" key every time she "forgets" and starts singing again...

P.S.: She evidenly enjoys singing. You may suggest voice lessons to at least improve the output, but her supervisor should make it clear that the working space is no place for a non-stop recital even if she sang like a bird.

@Chris #13
LW1 - Rather harsh... but rather accurate.

LW2 - "Get a large, clunky (obvious) pair of noise cancelling headphones and wear them each and every time you drive your FIL around. "
Definitely NOT. Then if he miscalculates a distance, he can't hear the other car honking. He can't hear the ambulance or firetruck's siren and move over. No, he can't hear his not-so-passive and rather aggressive FIL anymore, but he can't hear anything else either. Not a solution.

@JustBecause
" I think it is a habit that is ingrained into your FIL's head"
Oh, it definitely becomes that at one point, regardless of the point of origin... The point is, why did he start doing that at all? I believe the willingness to make the effort to stop has a lot to do with the reason it started in the first place.

If it's just an annoying habit that got out of control and the person really means no harm, yeah, talking to them, repeatedly if need be, may make a difference. But some people are simmering with anger just below the surface and resent needing other people for anything, and therefore find a way to make them pay, even as they're bending over backwards to be accommodating. Mister Crazy Singer was exactly like that. If FIL already has "a bad temper and a short fuse"... doesn't look good. It may be that the only way to fix this will be to tackle the problem head on, regardless of the resulting Pinatubo eruption.

Last but not least on LW1 -
Once you've tried everything, if there is no change... DISENGAGE. Otherwise he'll suck you into his maelstrom, and it will be two people destroyed instead of one.

P.S.: I have no idea of how bad he has gotten as of today, but he is already suicidal and he can get worse. Suicidal people often take loved ones along with them, most of the time to ease their own death. Please don't think that "he loves you and would never do that". This happens all the time.

Let's step back for a moment here -- if Jarrod is indeed clinically depressed, then he's not just playing the victim because he's lazy or entitled. It's premature to label him so negatively and certainly smacks of "blaming the victim". And unfortunately feeling like getting help is useless is absolutely part of the problem. If he can get some help or resources just to make those first few steps, a diagnosis and some medication and therapy may work wonders; I've seen it happen many times. There's enough stigma about mental illness, still, that we shouldn't leap to the conclusion that he's a slacker or a user until the more obvious (and probably more likely) scenario is investigated.

LW1: I can honestly say that I know how your boyfriend feels. I've been in his shoes, he really does feel that the world hates him and that nobody loves him except you (and he probably thinks you don't really love him either, after all he's worthless in his mind). He needs help ASAP. Make an emergeny appointment at the nearest counseling center. Tell him you did this, and that your future together depends on him going. If he still refuses you may want to keep the appointment and see if there is a way that he can be forced into treatment. It's called a Baker Act here in Florida, most states have this or a similar provision. My ex husband had to have me committed against my will. I really felt that I was beyond help, obviously I wasn't. When I take my antidepressant I'm OK. Hopefully he will be too.
LW2: If his singing bugs you that much, grow a pair and tell him. He can't know what you are thinking if he isn't told. You don't have to be mean about it. Tell him it distracts you and it affects your ability to drive. Maybe your driving scares him and he's singing to distract himself. You can't know these answers until you communicate with him. How is he going to start WWIII? Will there be physical violence? Will he rant and rave? If he does, will that hurt you? What is the worst that could possibly happen? If he's that pissed maybe he won't ask you for a ride anymore. If he just sings louder tell him he has to find someone else to drive him. Nobody can repeatedly take advantage of you unless you let them.
LW3: There is no reason not to learn new technology. Unless there is dementia involved, there is no such thing as being too old to learn new things.

@Lise #22. I totally agree with you on all accounts. What I did find out (after the fact) is that my coworker suffers from extreme anxiety so I think in his case it was just a way to calm his nerves. Doesn't make it any less annoying though. Every once in a while he will whistle without thinking about it and quickly correct himself. These sporadic episodes of whistling are almost always when he's doing month-end. He's an accounting manager so month-end can tend to be stressful on him. This is just an observation I made on my own though but he has been very frank about his anxiety (so much anxiety that he has panic attacks when under extreme stress).

I don't have a texting plan or a phone with a full keyboard. I use Google Voice for texting with my computer. You do need a cell phone to sign up but you don't have to send the messages or calls to it. I do because I have free incoming messages. I put my Google Voice number on an ad and got as many text responses as calls. It would have taken a long time for me to type a text into my phone but it was easy to do on my computer.

@Lise, hmm... okay, maybe he's not making it personal, or taking it personally, but I think he's coming awful close to it in some of his wording. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else (he offers no suggestion at all in the letter that it's anyone other than him), and it seems to be driving him crazier than it (objectively) should. He's calling it "rude" but there's no evidence there's anything conscious about it at all. He is also assuming that other people don't dare "poke the hornet's nest" but also says his wife is "oblivious" -- making it seem that, rather than annoying her, she's just learned to ignore it OR it's not even anywhere near as bad as LW is making it out to be (let's remember the LW could be exaggerating for effect or out of frustration).

People who can't learn to let other people's little annoyances and quirks roll off their backs are the ones with the problem, frankly. Getting so wound up about something so small is something that LW needs to work on, not the FIL.

Nobody is perfect, EVERYONE has habits and quirks that annoy the living crap out of those around us. Friends and family and polite, social people in general, all learn to put up with these things with good grace, because we understand the world doesn't revolve around us and a certain amount of compromise is essential for all relationships to work... and we also realize we don't get to "program" the people in our lives to behave exactly the way that pleases *us* all the time.

He's making a mountain out of a molehill, and needs to chillax. Which, maybe, despite his rather inflammatory language, is all he's really doing here. In which case, I would recommend that he stop framing the behavior using terms like "rude", "hornet's nest", "unbearable". Clearly, it IS bearable because most of the other people bear it just fine. I think, aside from the suggestions, he just needs to change the way he's viewing the behavior and ramp his own reactions to it down a notch.

And, really, maybe learning to harmonize with the old coot isn't a half-bad idea. They might even look for two other guys and form a half-way decent barbershop quartet. And the world needs more barbershop quartets.

@Jennylee #20- Regarding your Mom: How sweet and sad at the same time. Sweet that she loves to spend time with you but sad that she feels like her remaining day after you two run errands is so boring. I don't know if you already answered this so I apologize if I'm making you repeat but is there a senior center where your parents live that your Mom can get involved in? I have a few elderly neighbors who were bored out of their mind until they found some things they love to do at the senior center or local Y.

LW1 - The term for people like Jarrod is "psychic vampire." All he's doing is using you as his only outlet to dump his trash onto you...and he keeps doing it because it works and because you give him attention from it...and it's become his addiction. Since he's already made it very clear that he doesn't want to help himself, the only thing you can do is to stop feeding him his drugs. And if worse comes to worse and he does end up dead by his own hand, that's not your responsibility. Unfortunately, you might have to prepare to take some flak with that, as if it happens, his parents are going to be looking for a scapegoat other than him to blame for his death.

Re LW 2, I'm surprised no one has suggested that grampy's constant need for self-generated noise while being driven around is either OCD-related or possibly a self-soothing technique he's come up with to manage anxiety in a situation he can't control, ie. someone else's driving. It would be interesting to find out if he did this when he was able to drive himself. Though I agree that the best thing the complaining son-in-law can do is use the noise-cancelling headphones in this situation, he'll need to use extra vigilance while driving to compensate for missing the auditory clues of fire trucks, ambulance and police sirens and other drivers' horns.

Re: JustBecause #29
Yes, it is sad that she has no other life than her kids-------but she chose it that way, and continues to choose it. She keeps saying she is fine without a bunch of friends, but she has no idea how much she calls her kids, mainly me, each day. I'm an easy target because I'm now single and retired, so she figures I should be available. I've suggested the Senior Center for both of them, many times, but she won't go-----says she is happy the way she is------and my dad (well, stepdad, but the person I'd choose for my dad if I could) is bored out of his mind, but scared to go there by himself.
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I know he would make friends more easily than she would, but the fact is, he's getting a tiny bit senile, and sometimes he says stuff that doesn't make much sense, trying to joke with people. It doesn't make them want to hang out with him. My mom bitches at him because he won't go, but she won't go with him. It's complicated by the fact that my husband was my dad's best friend------they had a million things planned to do when my husband retired, and then he died six months before retirement. So now my dad is lost, depressed, and my mom bitches at him because he won't get out of the house and give her time to herself. I do what I can, but it's not the same as if he had a guy to pal around with.
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Just as an example-------years ago, my dad had a friend from before their marriage, and he invited them to go camping with him and his wife. We kids were ecstatic------yay, friends for them!!!! but when we asked if they had fun, they both said "Well, it was all right, but we both agreed we have lots more fun going with our kids."
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They're now in their eighties, and I don't see much hope of their changing, so I give what time I can and just try not to feel guilty when I say no. I love them, but I sure wish I'd put my foot down years ago as far as being their sole reason for living. I don't want to be.

Re: Mike H #28
"he offers no suggestion at all in the letter that it's anyone other than him"
"Clearly, it IS bearable because most of the other people bear it just fine."
He is the one driving, not the others. It is unbearable to HIM. And this is not democracy, where the majority gets to decide what's bearable and what's not.

He has the right to determine what bothers him and how much, without others dictating to him what should and shouldn't. Even if he is the only one bothered to distraction by this, no one driving a car should be bothered to distraction by ANYTHING, even if he WAS making this bigger than it really is. (And I really don't think he is)

"Getting so wound up about something so small "
I don't know why you're minimising this, but if he's yelling loud enough to cover the radio, it's not such a small thing. He certainly has a right to determine the rules in a car he's driving. Screaming with a melody is still screaming, and any responsible driver has a right to demand not to be subjected to that.

Not to mention that yeah, he's doing the guy a favour, the least the guy should do behave with consideration. If he used to drive himself, I canNOT believe he would have liked having that done to him while he was trying to concentrate on the road ahead and the zillion stupid things other drivers are prone to do. The fact that he is not in the least being considerate IS being rude indeed, and I don't see how stating this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Perhaps this is you playing devil's advocate again... Well, I can tell you that this would drive ME ding-dong batty, and I wouldn't put up with this yurunda.

#24
"if Jarrod is indeed clinically depressed, then he's not just playing the victim because he's lazy or entitled."
And nobody said that he was. What we ARE saying, is that if he adamantly refuses to help himself, then there is nothing she can do, because nobody can do much for someone who doesn't want to help himself.

So it's a vicious circle, his defeatist behaviour is part of his symptoms and it's not his fault. Fine. That doesn't give him every right, and there is no point of wasting two lives instead of one.

Mike, the ex LOML is clinically depressed. I have first-hand experience on how paralising a condition this can be for the sufferer, and how apathetic someone like that can become. I also have first-hand experience on knowing that, if he adamantly refuses to take that first step to help himself, THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO. Feel too sorry for him, and all that will happen is that he'll drag YOU down.

@jennylee (32) -- at the risk of suggesting something that only makes you MORE accountable for how they spend their time...have you considered taking your dad to the senior center, since he seems like he'd be interested but is too afraid to go alone? Again, I hate to suggest something that gives you ANOTHER task/responsibility on this score, but I'm thinking in terms of taking him just once or twice, on the theory that maybe he'd make a friend or two and then feel comfortable going on his own (and, who knows, maybe he could then manage to drag your mother with him at some point? -- I know, now I'm expecting miracles!).

I don't see this working for your parents, as they are older than mine, but I'll share it anyway, in case you find it at all helpful. My dad is 75, my mom is 68. Both still drive and only stopped working about three years ago. It would NEVER have occurred to my father to go hang out at the senior center. Not until he discovered that the senior center was looking for a tech-savvy volunteer to help teach computer courses (and other tech stuff) to seniors. My father was an IT guy all his life and is EXTREMELY tech savvy. So, he signed up to be one of the volunteers who teaches tech stuff to seniors. He LOVES it. And, as a result of volunteering to teach there, he has learned about other stuff they do -- stuff that he's interested in, so now, in addition to going there for his volunteer gig, he occasionally goes to sit in on other classes/lectures/activities, as well. Something he NEVER would have done had he not first been there in the capacity of a volunteer helping OTHERS. Maybe there's something your dad is knowledgeable about that he could share his expertise on?

LW2 - Two words for you: ear plugs.

Jarrod's family missed the boat by intervening just to get him to move out (assuming the LW reported it accurately).
?They don't see that he's truly troubled and needs doctors? Jarrod needs professional therapy, the sooner the better, for his depression -- a real illness that requires professional help. Mid and late teen years is a fertile time for mental illness to emerge. Comprehensive treatment often includes both individual and family therapy.
This is too much for a teenage girlfriend to shoulder, and she shouldn't drop anchor with Jarrod out of misplaced loyalty. I hope she moves on to other boyfriends and experiences. Her situation with Jarrod is too heavy. There's no sense in her detouring her own evolving academic, social, and personal life/health for this unhappy and "unfinished" youth as her only boyfriend. LW, consider him a friend, find a cheerful new love, and focus on your own upward path.

Re: Paul W #35
Too dangerous if he's the one doing the driving.

@Jennylee- I am sorry about the loss of your husband so close to his retirement. That's one of my biggest fears with my husband. He has a very stressful job and we are planning (financially for him to retire in 5-7 years at age 63-65) but many of his coworkers who haver retired or were in line to retire died shortly before or after retirement. My husband is 10 years older than me so I plan on retiring in 12 years at age 60 so we can spend some time doing things we want without either of our work schedules getting in the way.

Yeah, you are probably right that your parents won't change if they are set in their ways. I think my neighbor across the street who is 84 was reluctant at first but now she loves going to the senior center. She does water aerobics and tap dance and says she feels her healthiest in years.

Re: jennylee
My belated condolences on the loss of your husband.

BTW Patty Bear, I left you a message on the Cheater #2 thread.

@Lise, re: LW1, it wasn't your comments I was referring to. But if you re-read today's comments again, you'll find that there ARE more than one commenter who is indeed suggesting what I was referring to. I didn't say you were one of them.

@Lise, re: LW2, *IF* the singing really is that loud and distracting (and remember that frequently LW's exaggerate their cases), then he still needs to find a way to adjust -- like not being the driver. That's fine. But I still think he's being overly harsh in how he describes it, and that's part of the problem. How we define problems and people changes our emotional responses to them.

(Also, if it REALLY is THAT loud, how come absolutely no one else seems all that bothered by it? I doubt his wife could be "oblivious" to something that was so loud it drowned out the radio. Methinks it's pretty clear that the LW is being oversensitive here, at least to *some* degree -- and it's perfectly legit to call him out on it.)

Dear all, ugh, please forgive my grammar in comment #41 -- talk about needing to proofread!

Re: Mike H
You'll have to enlighten me, because I have just re-read all the comments pertaining to LW1, and I haven't seen anyone who said that he was "playing the victim because he's lazy or entitled".

Commentator, Chris and Paul W were the harshest - not that I disagree with them.

Commentator said he would "suck the life out of you and not thank you. Jarrod will draw you in and make you “feel” responsible for his living. If you try to leave he'll threaten to kill himself or he may make a shallow attempt just to make you feel guilt. Before you know it, he will have encompassed you like an octopus and getting away from him will be even harder and I guarantee you'll be miserable." Which is perfectly factual. People with depression can be extremely manipulative, and suicide is eminently useful as a manipulation tool, as it constitutes the ultimate blackmail.

Chris said, "can continue to use his lack of friends and depression as an excuse view himself as a helpless victim whom the world has abandoned." Viewing himself as the victim is not the same as playing the victim. They actually believe they are, even when they're victimising others. Been there, seen that.

And, "Instead of feeling sorry for him and wondering what you can do, instead ask Jarrod point black what HE is willing to do. If the answer is nothing, then you'll come to realize why he has no friends and his family staged an intervention to get this parasite out of their home."
And indeed people like Jarrod very often become parasites to their entourage, simply because they refuse to do ANYTHING, and people who love them are loath to see them end up in the street.

Paul W called him a psychic vampire. You have another name for someone who sucks the life out of anyone in his entourage? Because it's "not his fault", he's any less a psychic vampire, a parasite and an eternal victim suffering from terminal negativititis?

Sorry but, like I said, just because he's sick and it's "not his fault" doesn't give him all the rights, and it doesn't trump everyone else's welfare. Unless he's willing to seek help or can be forcibly committed, nothing will change and it will always be somebody else's fault. Been there, seen that, still seeing it, and there's nothing I can do. It's very painful watching someone so brilliant and gifted go down the drain because he won't get help, he won't, he won't, he won't.

Re: Mike H #42
Well, I choose to believe the letter as is, as I have seen people do things like that in the past. And if both wifeys say nothing, that doesn't mean it doesn't bother either of them, but both of them may be cowed by his "bad temper and short fuse" - apart from being more used to it than he is.

The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't even matter if he's "exaggerating" or not. For openers, he has the right to decide what bothers him, and if he hates it to the point of being driven to distrac tion (ha ha), then he has right to put a stop to it. It's his car, he's the one driving, and the man should be grateful for being driven around, not obnoxious!

The fact that he makes no mention of his wife taking over the driving duties tends to indicate she doesn't have a permit. Seems to me such an obvious solution would have been used if it was at all possible.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I'm usually pretty much on board with Mike H in his comments, but in this case I totally agree with you on LW2. It's HIS car and he's doing his FIL a favor. Also, regardless of whether or not he "should" be bothered by the singing and other noises his FIL makes, he IS bothered to the point of possibly being distracted from his driving and having an accident. I also agree with your thought that possibly his wife can't or won't drive, since he didn't mention that as an alternative. If that's the case, then headphones or ear plugs are out of the question, since he wouldn't be able to hear sirens or other outside noises and that could also cause an accident. The FIL needs to stop annoying the driver or find another mode of transportation.

@Lise, I'm surprised that in that long list you didn't notice the implicit suggestion of a level of choice and activity that just isn't called for, anywhere in the letter. It shows both a shocking lack of compassion as well as a deep misunderstanding of mental illness. *Real* depression takes away the sense of initiative and agency that these comments blame the LW for. It's exactly the kind of stigmatized thinking that hurts those in real need of treatment, and is a classic "blame the victim" response.

@Kitty, as for the singing FIL, what I've noticed in his letter is his rather dismissive attitude towards his wife's experience, which is why I question that his description is 100% accurate. (She's "oblivious" simply because she doesn't have the same response he does?)

I don't disagree with the solutions, either -- and I never have. What I am pointing out is that he's engaged in a classic self-fulfilling prophecy because he uses such aggressive language to describe what is objectively a minor and infrequent occurrence. He's winding himself up, and a change of attitude and the language he uses to mentally frame the situation would actually go a long way to reducing his frustration down to reasonable levels.

But I'm not in any way suggesting he shouldn't find alternative ways of dealing with the situation -- just that, instead of solely pointing the fingers everywhere else but himself (his FIL is rude, his wife is oblivious, her family is cowardly for not standing up to him), perhaps a significant part of the problem is HIM and the way he views things.

Re: Mike H
Mike, if they adamantly and stubbornly refuse to help themselves and forcible commitment is not possible, what the hell is the entourage supposed to do? Keep tolerating mooching, substance abuse, tantrums, verbal abuse, erratic behaviour, emotional blackmail and possibly even violence, all in the name of compassion? And if they don't put up with anything-anything-anything, then they're blaming the victim? I'm sorry Mike, but I think I have seen mental illness from close enough that I cannot be accused of "deep misunderstanding".

@Lise, except we have no evidence that he is "adamantly and stubbornly refusing" to help himself. A debilitating sense of hopelessness is a common symptom of clinical depression -- it's the sense that there is no point in even attempting something that you cannot see having any hope of success, and it is NOT "adamantly and stubbornly refusing to help oneself".

There is a vast difference in those two descriptions. And note that I said nothing about tolerating the behavior -- you are confounding a few different issues and jumping to a conclusion. Please re-read my comments -- while I object to the mischaracterization of a young man struggling with clinical depression, I didn't once suggest that the LW has to put up with it, either. Two separate issues, Lise. I think the problem that you are having with my response is that you are making an assumption that I'm suggesting something I haven't.

You are not the only person to have seen mental illness close up, Lise. Your personal experience doesn't trump mine or anyone else's, here. I'm not objecting (and haven't objected once!) to the advice given to the LW; I'm objecting to the inappropriate and inaccurate mischaracterizations of her boyfriend that *accompanied* the advice.

Re: Mike H
"we have no evidence that he is "adamantly and stubbornly refusing" to help himself."
Well, for openers, yeah, we do:
"he says the idea of talking to someone about his problems scares him and stresses him out even more."
"He's convinced no one can help him."
"He thinks antidepressants would make him feel worse."
"When I suggest that a better sleep schedule, healthier eating habits and more exercise could help, he says he doesn't care enough to try."

Mike, you're the one who suggested that some posters "labeled him so negatively" as "playing the victim because he's lazy or entitled". When I told you nobody said that, you told me to go re-read the comments. I did. Nobody said that. So if there is anyone who is assuming here, it's you, not me, and the "inappropriate and inaccurate mischaracterizations" you are complaining about are strictly your interpretation, not what people actually said. I can only assume you're having fun playing Devil's advocate and checking how long you can surf the wave for, or else that you're having a bad day.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - on both LW1 and LW2.

@Lise, I'm sorry, but absolutely none of the example from the letter you provide actually support your argument -- at all.

All they are is examples of the helplessness that crippling depression can create in someone -- in fact, they are all classic textbook examples of that.

You are continuing to assume an agency, a deliberateness, to his reactions that simply isn't supported.

You may feel free to continue to blame the victim, and it's clear this is one of those times where regardless of what is said, you will dig in your heels -- but you're wrong, here, Lise, and you're now actively *fighting* for the right to be wrong.

Your lack of compassion here is just one of those blind spots that you sometimes expose in this forum, and I couldn't let it go unremarked. You are mischaracterizing him and his symptoms, period.

But yes, if agreeing to disagree will allow us to move on, fine -- but you're REALLY off the mark here, and I'm very hopeful that no one struggling with clinical depression reads your words in today's forum and takes them to heart.

Re: Mike H
Everything you accuse me of is strictly of your own interpretation - in other words, in your mind. Look. Even if he had no will whatsoever in the matter and was being tossed aroung like a tree leaf in a hurricane, STILL his entourage wouldn't be selfish, insensitive, intolerant, ignorant or whatever name you see fit to call them, because they grew fed up with his sh(i)t trips. Whether or not he's doing it on purpose is not even the point: whether it's on purpose or not, it's still a sh(i)t trip. You keep missing that point. Since you are not mentally ill, I can only assume there is intent involved...

And there ARE people posting here who have battled clinical depression. I didn't see them lambasting me like you have.

I'm sure you'll post a retort to this. Have your last word is you insist, but I'm done with this. I've already brought forward my arguments, which you've misinterpreted and/or ignored a gogo. Repeating them over and over and over would be quite pointless.

Lise, I'm not the one interpreting -- you keep dodging the issue, not directly addressing the point, and adding all sorts of stuff that wasn't in the letter and the LW wasn't even asking about. And your little digs don't add to your argument, they just detract from it.

She isn't fed up with him. She isn't stressed out about him. She's *worried* about him. All of that other stuff you mention is in YOUR mind, YOUR words. She hasn't said ANYONE in his entourage dropped him because they were fed up, or sick of him or anything. There's no evidence in the letter that anyone in his life is calling him selfish. His parents staged an apparently ill-conceived "intervention" because he hadn't gotten a job or moved out yet. That's all. Everything else you suggest about how people are reacting to him is YOUR invention, period.

The other people in this thread gave up a while ago, Lise, and that doesn't prove anything either -- you keep moving the goalposts here. Calling the boyfriend names, continuing these inaccurate negative stereotypes of people battling mental illness, is neither helpful nor does it even address the LW's question.

There is no need, nor any basis, to characterize the boyfriend with *any* negative language *whatsoever*. It doesn't accurately describe him or his actions, and it doesn't help the LW one whit. He's not being stubborn, he's not a perpetual victim, he's not a psychic vampire, he's a freaking human being struggling with a serious problem and one of the very symptoms this problem creates is a sense of hopelessness that makes even getting out of bed a struggle. And she's worried about him because of this. She's not drained, she's not negative, she's not at her wit's end... she's simply looking for ways to help him. Dumping on him is not the answer, and clearly the Annies did a better job than BTL on this one as a result.

And yes, I will continue to respond if unfortunate, outdated and harmful negative stereotypes about depression will continue to be bandied about inappropriately in this thread -- you can bet on that. The language you use about him is totally unnecessary and unhelpful.

It's a bit late, but just so people know, you can set it up so that texts go to email and e-mails go to the phone, as long as they aren't too long. For instance, when my husband had verizon, i could e-mail his phone from my computer by sending it to (his number)@vtext.com.