Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1: I have been a single mother for 15 years (daughter just started college and is doing well, thank you!) and would like to offer this advice to you, because it has worked very well for me.

When my daughter was very young, my sister who is an excellent seamstress offered to make my daughter's Halloween costumes for her. I never asked her too, she VOLUNTEERED. She knew I was incredibly busy and also she knows I can't sew a straight stitch, and she loves to do that stuff, so she VOLUNTEERED. It took a tremendous pressure off of me and while my sister was doing the fittings with my daughter, they bonded strongly.

One of my brothers took it upon himself to buy my daughter her "fancy" dress every year for Christmas. Another brother (her godfather) still takes her once a week to just hang out (they have a similar sense of humor). Another sister (her godmother) takes her every summer for two weeks. Another sister gives her free medical exams (she's a doctor).

My point (other than to say that my family stepped up and helped me to raise my daughter and to give her things I couldn't) is that they never gave me cash for my daughter. Financially, they helped a bit over the years (very little) but they gave and still give gifts directly to my DAUGHTER. That way, there is no misunderstanding of where the money goes.

My advice to you is to do the same. Tell your mother that you will provide the Halloween costumes for your younger siblings. Make it fun for THEM. My sister used to make a big deal out of the costumes for my daughter, she'd do the fittings and then would take her to Sears to get her picture taken in her costumes. Field trips and school supplies? Make a date to do that stuff with your siblings, make a day out of it, take them to lunch and talk about goals.

And for goodness sakes, stop judging you mother! It's so sad when people begrudge you a dinner out or something when you have helped them out. Just give the money directly to your siblings and stop monitoring your mother's spending habits. She has NINE kids for goodness sakes!

LW2: My first thought after reading your letter was LW, you were once a baby YOURSELF! I don't get people treating babies like some kind of object, they are little people. That's one reason I don't believe in babytalking babies, why talk to them like they are morons (nod to Diane of yesterday)? LW, maybe you should try to change your persective. Babies and children are PEOPLE and all people are "messy, leaky, smelly and noisy, as well as demanding and expensive" even your own precious self.

That being said, I wouldn't want you holding my baby, so when people ask you to hold their babies, say "I'm sorry, I have a toxic personality that might infect your child, so I shouldn't hold your child". Says it all right there.

LW3: Amen, Mishawaka!

I laugh when reading letter 2. Gee. This could also describe adults when they get to upper ages, and some not quite that old. Karma finds a way to make sure she understands it--whether she herself will end up with the same complaints----I doubt she will have a sig. other--they would also illistrate the same leaking.

Then take it back a few years, you got teenagers who add a few more things. Bu the one that gags me the most is the leaking thing. My mom is 80. And I would prefer the smell of a baby's diaper to what she is going through. And can't smell it. When she stays here I remove the bathroom trash right after she comes out. I added poopy pooch bags to her stash and asked her to put her leaky pads into them.

Yeah, bet this babe was the highlight of her family growing up. Bet out of diapers by 6 months and everyone's darling. NOT.

Then lady, pretend you have something contagious and they will sure to keep all children and babies out of your reach. Reminds of of Hansel and Gretel. What triggers these famous yet tragic fairy tales in our minds!!! Like a bad plate of liver and onions.

Not a Mommy: A simple tactic is to simply to fold the arms across the chest or clasp them behind the back. Keep the body relaxed, to allow social discourse. Restrict gestures to the head to avoid arm exposure. The most enthusiastic sharer will have a hard time getting past that!

PS: Happy Friday all!

While I really loathe when people say "I hate kids" (I always responsd "I completely understand; I hate black people." Strangely, I've had people tell me that's completely inappropriate and not at all the same? LOL... Oh and for those with no sarcasm detector, that was sarcasm. I do not hate black people) I have to say there's nothing wrong with not wanting to hold a child. It's kind to do so, it's very helpful, I love the people who do it for me, but I can't imagine unless incredibly desperate asking someone who did not offer. I have a couple of friends who refuse to hold which is fine, even if I think they are drama queens about it. We all have our "things" right?

And LW1 god forbid your mother ever eat a dinner out. FOR SHAME. Report her to CPS immediately. What an ungrateful sow indeed. That was also sarcasm. You should walk a mile in her shoes and then fry them up for dinner and choke on the leather.

LW1 - I hate to diss the Annies repeatedly, but they seem to have missed the LW's point. Whether the writer gives money to the little ones directly, or gives it to the mom who then gives it on them, the point is that mom is lying about needing it in the first place. I would sit down and have a talk with mom about money. She sounds weird and a little manipulative in that regard. If this is her only character flaw, try not to make an issue of it. Instead of being confrontational, use it as an opportunity to get to know her better. Open a conversation sometime. Ask what her past was like. Was she deprived as a little girl? Probe quietly to see if you can fine out what's going on with her.
When she whines about how poor she is, smile and say you know how she feels, and don't offer to bail her out.Her money problems are not your job to fix. But don't take it as a confrontation either. She may just be "stuck" about money and not thinking well. It doesn't necessarily make her a bad person in other respects.


LW2 - babies understand much of what's being said around them. Just because they can't speak yet doesn't mean they're not processing language. (The ability to process words begins soon after birth.) Please don't take the Annies' advice about acting freaked out and saying you're scared you'll drop them. They may understand what you're saying. (My advice to LW2 would be, actually, to get over herself. How many times a week do people thrust their babies at you to hold? Learn to hold one for a moment and hand him or her back. You sound like one of the "me" generation who can't be inconvenienced for a moment to think about someone else. If you're truly uncomfortable holding babies, practice holding a pillow if need be, to get over your weird feelings about babies.) But I get a little weary of people defending their personal idiosynchracies (like not like babies) as if they were a holy thing that everyone needs to respect.

LW 2 : I find all of the comments posted on here to be very unfair. Some of you are saying she has a toxic personality, or that shes a drama queen just because she does not like kids and does not want to be forced to hold them. Would you call someone a drama queen for not wanting to hold your dog? No. I wouldn't except people to hold my dogs, nor would I think negative of them for not wanting to hold my kid.

One day I may have children, but I do not swoon over little babies and toddlers. I do not want to hold other peoples kids. The LW said she is nice to the parent's faces, which means she does NOT have a toxic personality. She is not telling the parents that their kids smell. I'll hold your kid who drools, when you hold my dog that will lick your face like there is no tomorrow. O, and before people start saying "babies and dogs are not the same"... to some people they are, and to some people babies are even worse then dogs. In my eyes, both things drool on me when I hold them. I love my little baby nephew, but I would much rather have dog drool on me than baby drool, but that is because I am used to dog drool, just like other women are used to baby drool.

It's very simple, other people are not going to think your children are the worlds greatest gift like you do. It does not mean they are toxic or drama queens. It just means they don't want to hold YOUR kid.

So far the comments re LW1 seem to be that the LW is being too hard on her mother...I don't agree. Her MOTHER had NINE children...why is it the LW responsiblilty to buy their school supplies, costumes, pay for field trips? Where is their father? It is the parents' responsibility. If you can't afford to raise nine children, then don't have nine children. When you're a parent you do what you can for your child - and you go without so your child can have what they need, and what special things you can also manage. That the mother treats herself shortly after the LW gives money means the siblings are not benefiting as intended, or that mother had the money to buy her children the things they needed, but chose not to - because she knew she could get someone else to take care of her responsibilities. Don't feel sorry for the mother - she's a manipulator - proof in the fact that she threatens her older child with not seeing her siblings and calls her inconsiderate, rude and uncaring to keep the money coming.

Right on, LW2. I figured people BTL would take her to task with silly analogies. Joyce/MN - say what now? Since old people's diapers are worse than babies' diapers, LW2 should be thrilled to be around baby diapers? And sure, I was a baby myself - my mom and dad chose to have a baby (and from the home videos, looks like they loved it). So? Not sure why Nanchan is so upset - LW2 doesn't want to hold her baby, and she doesn't want LW2 to hold her baby, everyone wins - why do you have to call her names? Babies ARE "messy, leaky, smelly and noisy", none of you contest that, yet are very upset that she said it. I've never touched a diaper in my life, but I love my nieces and nephews (sigh, of course I realize I may someday wear one - so?)

Plenty of people in the world don't care for babies - maybe that's good; maybe they would be terrible parents, who knows. But saying they are wrong and should enjoy babies is rather odd. The world is filled with different kinds of people and we have to respect that, not demand that everyone enjoy all the same things that we do.

Good letter, good response from the Annie's: "No matter how nice you are, some people will be offended".

LW1 - I have to agree with LW's feelings about mom's selfishness. She should NOT be asking her grown children for money to support the younger ones while enjoying all kinds of luxuries herself. It also makes me wonder what mom is getting from the other adult children. My parents were divorced when I was seven. I had a mother that was much like this, dad was the one that paid for EVERYTHING, often going without himself, while mom lived the high life of partying etc. She took trips, had nice cars, clothes etc. While dad scraped by. A few years back dad paid for all my kids back to school stuff while I was on sick leave, even though he didn't really have the money and worked overtime to do so. My mom could not even be bothered to visit, let alone help because she was "too busy".
That said, knowing how you grew up, look out for your siblings, if you have the resources to do so. Don't give mom the chance to ask for money, make plans for the kids and do. If she complains after about not having money for herself, just nicely remind her you already contributed and have your own responsibilities and can't help her. And don't let her guilt you into it. And you will build lasting memories with those younger siblings who will have the security of knowing they have you.
Being a parent sometimes means we go without for our children. We go without sleep, time for ourselves, luxuries etc.

Really, Nanchan? Someone who doesn't want to hold your baby has a toxic personality and might infect your baby? As opposed to your personality, Miss Sweetness and Light? Not to mention Joyce and Sarah Morrow. The self-centered "me generation" sure as hell isn't the LW2, it's right here in BTL. OMG, somebody doesn't want to hold your BAYBEE!! What a travesty of humanity! Who could even imagine--the very idea that the world doesn't revolve around your sainted motherhood or your darling Hope Of The Future in diapers. There must be something WRONG with people who think that way, right? Sheesh.

I mean, honestly. LW2 says nice things about the kids and is looking for a polite way to say, "No thank you" and the first response is for people to act like she's a total freak? Give me a break. You're the one who decided to give birth, YOU hold the baby. And instead of expecting everyone else to coo in adoration at your kid's very presence, maybe you could think beyond your own universe for two seconds to ASK a particular individual if they would like to hold the baby--and understand that every single person is 100% entited to say NO even if they love babies and have a dozen of their own. CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS! Holy crap, it doesn't just go in the direction of those who have delivered offspring. Try it sometime.

And after that tirade against the relentlessly child-centric... LW1, if you want to offer assistance for your siblings' school supplies and Halloween costumes, buy the actual items. Don't pony up the cash. It's pretty obvious that your mother's first priority is #1 (maybe she has a toxic personality? Kinda strange since she seems to love babies) and if you DO give her cash, it's not going to be spent on whatever she supposedly was desperate to buy for the kids. If she threatens to keep the siblings from you, tell her you'll be forced to call CPS in that instance. Don't let her blackmail you, and hopefully before too long, at least some of the kids will be old enough to use Facebook or email to keep in touch with you on their own.

re LW2 - I have two children (now grown) and have loved them during every stage of their lives, including the smelly, leaky, expensive, etc., parts. HOWEVER, I never forced them on other people, nor do I particularly automatically adore other people's babies or want to hold them. I like children and babies, but do not feel the same way about them that I did or do my own. Some people are not comfortable around babies and there's nothing wrong with them for feeling that way. It certainly shouldn't cause anyone to label them as having a "toxic personality". The LW should just tell the aggressive baby pushers that since she has no children she is not comfortable holding babies and leave it at that.

LW1: I think the important issue here is that you feel like your mother is lying to you about the need for the money, not that you begrudge her these things. And I think it's natural to feel a bit swindled if someone does this on a regular basis to you, whether or not they are your mother.

But the Annies answer makes sense if you want to maintain good relations and keep in your young siblings' lives. You can even make a social event out of it: "They need Halloween costumes? Well, I'm free tomorrow, let's make a shopping trip out of it, I would love to spend an afternoon with them picking out costumes!"

Then, if your mother still takes herself out for a fancy dinner, you won't feel quite as used.

LW2: I'm also a little disappointed that some BTL commenters have missed the fact that you try very hard to be polite about your friends' babies, that you don't make a big deal out of it -- that it's only when the parents *thrust* their babies on you even after you say no, that you are having a problem.

Let's be clear: these parents ARE being inconsiderate, there is nothing wrong with not wanting to hold a baby. Unfortunately some parents are so wrapped up in their own feelings of parenthood that they project their feelings onto every one else, and they decide that there must be something wrong with someone who feels differently than they do.

That's basically pretty self-centered and a bit rude, when you think about it; but it's also understandable, since babies take a LOT of work and do tend to take over the lives of their parents, so do try to take that into account.

Continue to be low-key around the babies, and maybe take a quick step back, or cross your arms, if they insist on thrusting the baby in your arms over your objections. And repeat, "I'm sorry, but I'm really not comfortable holding your baby, I'd rather admire him/her from right where I am, thank you, though."

And if your friends get judgmental about your personal preferences, perhaps you need to think about finding new friends who are a little more respectful and accepting of different opinions.

LW3: I hope your advice can help those who are struggling with that issue.

LW1 - The Annies were way off with this one, in my opinion. Basically, the Annies told the LW to give in to a bully. Her mother is bullying her. She's saying, "You either support my kids or you won't see them!" It is NOT the LW's responsibility to provide for her younger siblings. That is her mother's job. And if the mother can't afford her kids, then she needs to do something besides demanding her older kids give money. My parents would never in a million years ask me for money. Ever!! And to boot, after her younger kids are taken care of, Mom suddenly finds the money to go out and spend it on herself. Sounds to me like Mom has the money to either buy her kids' school supplies OR go out to dinner and she takes the selfish route. If she didn't want to make sacrifices, then she shouldn't have had any kids. As for the LW, I think she should simply tell her mother that SHE doesn't have any money, either.

This woman reminds me of a friend's ex-wife. Any time the kids need lunch money for school, new clothes or shoes, etc, she always tells them she has no money and to go to their father. He gives it to them and the next thing you know, ex-wife comes home with a new perm, or goes out and plays bingo all night, or goes out drinking all night. Gee, I wonder where his child support money is going??

LW2 - Wow, I am shocked that people are being so harsh on her! Some people just don't like holding babies. There's nothing wrong with that. She didn't say that all babies deserve to rot in hell, she just simply doesn't want to hold them. What if someone wanted you to hold their new puppy or kitty and you didn't want to? Does that make you a bad person? No. You're just not into that.

I admit, I am not all that comfortable holding babies but I love and adore them! I am afraid that I'm not going to hold them right and that I'm going to hurt them. Yes, I've held them, but not for long periods of time. I mostly smile, sing, talk to and read to them when they're in their little seats or in the pack 'n play. The LW should simply keep her arms crossed and say, "I'm not comfortable holding babies, I'm afraid of dropping them" or something like that.

Re: limniade #11
You said everything I was thinking!

I completely relate to the woman who doesn't want to hold other people's babies. I usually put my hands up in front of me and exclaim, "Oh I don't dare. I was recently exposed to whooping cough (flu, measles, whatever) and I will NOT risk passing it along to your little darling." That usually takes care of it. If not, I add a very chesty cough!

LW1 -
For you to buy the things directly rather than give her the money indeed ensures that it gets to the right place, but the fact is that your mother is demanding this so that she has money left over for her own self-indulgence. That she should flip it around and accuse you of selfishness is par for the course - narcissism 101, everything is about her, if you're not busy catering to her every want and need 24/7, YOU'RE the one being selfish. Yrrrch.

Yes, you are being shamelessly blackmailed and your resident egg donor is forcing you to buy the right to see your siblings. Despicable, but there is nothing you can do about it except pay up. Offset this by taking the kids out yourself for Halloween costume or school supply shopping and turn this into a bonding experience. They too, will move out of the house one day and go through the same process about their mother as you did.

@Sarah
S/he already "sat down and had a talk with mommy". That's when s/he was called inconsiderate, rude and uncaring, and threatened to have access to the siblings cut off.

LW2 -
"Is there a nice way to say, "I think your baby is sweet, but I feel more comfortable when the little tyke is on someone else's lap"?"
What's not nice about that sentence? Sounds nice enough to me... Perhaps you can add that you're going through menopause and your baby-liking hormones have dried up? Hee here hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee

"Some people will be offended that you don't admire their child as much as they do."
Nope. Some people will be offended that a WOMAN dares to not like babies. Just like they are shocked and scandalised that she may not want children - any such woman is labelled a selfish, unnatural, mentally ill witch. With some of the comments BTL being a point in case. 100 years of women's lib and nothing has changed in so many people's heads. Re-yrrrrch.

LW3 -
Just like loving a child does not including giving in to every whim and fancy, "honouring thy mother and father" does not include putting yourself in harm's way by supplying them with a permanent scratching post. Well-ordained charity starts at home. Applicable to LW1.

LW1 - So when she gives her mom the money do the kids not get the Halloween costumes or school supplies? Or, do they get them and mom also goes out to dinner or whatever? Anyway, the Annies are right (color me shocked). She should just pay directly for the actual need and be done with it. Like a gift, once cash is given it's the recipient's to do with as they wish. And it's a choice to feel misled or lied to. She can just consider it one of her mother's cute little eccentricities and laugh about it.


LW2 - Here's a little trick I learned. When asked say, "Oh yes! I'd love to hold little Smedely". Then go stiff as a board and hold the baby out at arms length like toxic waste and comment about how heavy s/he is. Depending on how the baby is dressed you can sometimes hold a piece of clothing and dangle them out away from you. This usually freaks the hell out of the moms and they scream and snatch the baby back. You can then look at them and go, "wha..?" I call it "Fun With New Moms".


LW3 - Thank you for clearing that up for us. Can you also comment on "Though shalt kill", and that one about coveting thy neighbor's ass? Have you seen my neighbor? Trust me, no coveting happening there.

LW1 - Annies, I think you are missing the point. It's not that mom is misusing the money that LW1 is giving her, it's that she's using her own money for her own things and getting others (LW1, namely) to pay for necessities for her kids.

LW1, decide if you are willing to contribute financially to your siblings' lives, and whether you can afford it. If you can, and want to, preemptively strike by occasionally suggesting that you take them out shopping for new school clothes, for Halloween costumes, that sort of thing. Then, when your mother asks, it can be your decision, or you can say "I'd love to help but I took them out clothes shopping last month and I can't afford anything else right now". You say it has happened several times in the past few years, so she is not hitting you up for cash on a weekly basis. If you can, and want to, you should. And if that means that your mother can afford a nice meal out for herself, or a new gadget, then so be it.

That said, it is YOUR money, and your mother's poor choices are NOT your responsibility. You can do what you want with it. If you do not want to contribute, simply say "I can't afford it right now, I have other bills, sorry" - it is arguably the truth, and it's hard to argue with it. Stand your ground. If you are good at budgeting, you might offer to help your mom set up a budget - then you can get an idea of how much money she has to throw around each month, and when she asks you for money, you can actually ask her about that part of her budget. You may find that she budget really is limited and that your help permits her to treat herself on occasion. Is that so terrible?

LW2 - Do you feel better now that you've let off some steam? And great, now you've got the offended moms going off BTL. Why is it that so many parents get SO offended by the mere mention that someone might not like kids in general? Sheesh. To each their own. Not wanting to hold a baby doesn't make a person toxic, nanchan. Although today someone came over to my home and ignored my cat oh mah gawwwwd so toxic cats are people too.

I do understand where you're coming from, LW2. I am also not particularly enamored with babies and prefer not to hold them (I like 'em when they can start to talk and have conversations and stuff but before then they are just kind of blobby and loud) but is it really happening to you that often that you need a ready-to-use "line" to dissuade these women from forcing their children upon you? Just say "no thanks, I'm really not comfortable holding babies" and keep your hands up - smile, make jokes ("oh, he's adorable, I'm just afraid of getting puked on!" or "I dropped three babies last week and I'm still a bit shook up so I'll pass!" laugh smile) so no one takes anything the wrong way. They will give up eventually - they aren't going to drop their baby on the floor if you refuse to hold it - and if they get offended, tough noogies. They'll get over it.

Alternatively, you could hold the baby for a few seconds, laugh, hand it back to mom and say "okay, that's enough!"

Re: Katrina Thanks for saying what I wanted to. JEEZ. The mommy-kid centric crowd is out in FORCE.

LW1: If you find it very likely that you will be asked to provide school supplies again, buy some extras when they go on sale or during tax free week in your state and keep them in a box in your home. Next time your mom needs school supplies for the kids, bam, you all ready have some. It's not like school supplies have an expiration date. Then, you can say to your mom, "Let me see their lists. Okay, I have three sheafs of notebook paper, six packets of pencils, two packets of pens, etc. I'll bring them over. Can you afford what's left on the list?" That way, you're not on the hook for all the school supplies.
This idea can be transplanted onto other needs. I'm willing to bet that you can help take care of the kids needs probably for less money than you're giving your mother. As a bonus, you potentially have a bonding experience with your siblings.
Of course, we're all assuming that the LW lives near their mother. If they don't, this gets a little trickier. But, the internet is a wonderful thing. You can shop online for what the kids need and have it shipped to your parents house.
LW2, Not wanting to hold a child doesn't make you a toxic person. I'm with Zoe -- I prefer children around the time they can start stringing sentences together. Just step back, smile, and say, "I'd rather admire your adorable baby from afar."

i love babies. my favorite part of infant development is watching a newborn take in his/her new environment. having said that, i'd rather pass on holding your little darling. i know new parents have had to learn how to hold a baby and enjoy passing on this skill to others by insisting, but i have severe ra and cts. my hands are weak and the likelihood of dropping your child are greater than not. right now, i also have a cold that i've had for weeks. it seems to have settled into something else and i don't know if i'm contagious or not. i'd rather not run the risk of exposing your baby to whatever it is i have.
not everyone is comfortable around babies. they aren't comfortable interacting with them. that doesn't make them bad people. some people are fine with infants but awkward with slightly older children. they may have no shared interests. others go to the opposite end and are not comfortable with the elderly. it's no use pointing out that they used to be babies or children or one day may be elderly. i think not only should these folks learn to tolerate babies, children or the elderly, but we, who are passing judgement on them, should also learn to be more tolerant. the woman who won't hold your baby now may turn out to be an attentive and caring daisy/girlscout leader later. we all have our niches to fill.

@WKH - You are so ignorant! Just kidding, I laughed outloud when I read your retort. Very funny.

LW3: I don't like holding babies either, only on rare occasions. Do what I do. I sniffle and when offered, and say, "I have the sniffles and I feel a touch under the weather. It's probably allergies but why chance getting your sweet little one sick."

Works every time. Give the adulation they desperately crave and their overprotective nature kicks in.

Awwwww... I love you guys too!

To explain my position on LW2, which seems to have some of you so up in arms: My issue is not with the fact that the LW doesn't want to hold babies. Almost everybody has something in their life that they are not comfortable doing that is something most people expect them to do. Dog lovers (as indicated by one poster above) expect everybody to love their dogs, yet some people are afraid of dogs. Same with cats. And certainly there are people I know (a lot of guys that I know) that are afraid of holding a baby for whatever reason. When my best friend had her baby, I was afraid to hold it for awhile because the baby had been a premee (sp?) and she was TINY.

But being AFRAID of holding a baby is much different than having disdain for them. From the letter itself:

"I have never had any desire to have children, and I don't see what the appeal is." - OK. I can respect you don't want to have children, but BILLIONS of people throughout time HAVE or you wouldn't be here. LW, who are you to decide for another person what they find appealing?

"Babies are messy, leaky, smelly and noisy, as well as demanding and expensive." as indicated in my first post, most PEOPLE are messy, leaky, smelly and noisy as well as demanding and expensive. Why discriminate against babies?

"However, these same parents are shocked to learn that I am not as thrilled with their little darlings as they are" - In the sentence preceeding this, the LW states that she says positive things about the children, then here we see this? Does she say "oh what a cute baby" and then when the parent understandably hands the baby to them to hold, say "ew... smelly, leaky, messy!!!" What does she expect?

The issue here isn't that the LW doesn't want to hold the babies, it's in her disgust for them. And in my book, that is bad (hence my word toxic) FOR THE BABY. As another poster pointed out, babies pick up on things. They can sense fear and hate and it's not fair to the child to have this person hold the child. Since the LW is keeping her disgust for babies enough under wraps for people to actually hand them their children, she should just say "I don't like to hold babies" and leave it at that.

limniade, my little snowflake, you said it all. I love you.
Rick, you're really hot today. What are you wearing?
Alien, tell Maggie we meet at the next full moon.

limniade, my little snowflake, you said it all. I love you.
Rick, you're really hot today. What are you wearing?
Alien, tell Maggie we meet at the next full moon.

Re: nanchan
As a childfree woman myself, we consider phrases like "You were a baby yourself" a part of what we like to call "Breeder Bingo." Yeah, we were all babies once, but does that really matter here? Not really.
Some people simply are not wired with a maternal or paternal instinct, similar to a gay person being wired to be sexually attracted to the same gender. Yes, children are little people, but some childfree adults simply have an aversion. You may not understand it, but don't discount it...and it is CERTAINLY not toxic. You must have missed the part where she is polite and doesn't make a big deal out of her childfree status, EXCEPT when it comes to holding babies. They're fragile, they don't communicate well, and some simply don't like strangers holding them. Do you really want to force that on someone that doesn't have children and probably doesn't have a lot of experience holding babies?
Normally, I agree with you on a lot of things, nanchan, but on this one, you are COMPLETELY off base.

Re: Joyce/MN

Believe it or not, childfree people DO have healthy relationships and actually *gasp* GET MARRIED! Can you BELIEVE it? Oh the horror!

re LW2 - Kitty - I agree with your post entirely. I loved my babies and I like babies in general, but I would never force a baby or a child for that matter on someone who is clearly uncomfortable.

I do not hold newborns that are not my own. Children under six months have very little immunity and as a parent of young children I am a courier of every germ imaginable. On top of that, a newborn is so much more delicate and fragile then an older baby. Finally, if the baby does reward you with a smile for your efforts, you can't be sure it isn't just gas until about 4-6 months or so. My nephew was born last November. I visited him and mom at the hospital. I cooed at him and held him for 5 mins tops.

My older brother is an awesome uncle. He cannot and never has been able to tolerate the sound of a baby crying. It has grated his nerves since we were children. That is just him, I am not mad at him for it. In fact, as far as I am concerned it is ok to not like children as long as you don't show open disdain, contempt, or hostility toward them. Not wanting to hold a child does not make someone a bad person. Calling all children brats and showing complete disdain may be indicative of a dark soul.

re LW1 - I get her. I don't think she is saying that she doesn't want to help mom financial when she can or that she doesn't want her mother to ever have nice things or use her money on herself on ocassion. However, considering that she just moved out a few years ago and is probably still pretty young; I would go out on a limb and say that she is not rolling in excess cash. She is being generous, but it is not a requirement that she take care of her younger siblings; she did not give birth to them. In addition, when she generously gives her mother money to help her siblings out, how is it fair that her mother now gets to go out to a fancy dinner when likely, the LW is giving her mother money that she no longer has to spend on herself. The kicker is the emotional blackmail - her mother is actually threatening to not allow her to see her siblings?? That sounds like a narcissist for sure. Also, like Limniade said, where is the father of the younger children in all of this? Why can't he help with school supplies?

Re: Lise Brouillette

"Nope. Some people will be offended that a WOMAN dares to not like babies. Just like they are shocked and scandalised that she may not want children - any such woman is labelled a selfish, unnatural, mentally ill witch. With some of the comments BTL being a point in case. 100 years of women's lib and nothing has changed in so many people's heads. Re-yrrrrch."

Thank you for this. I got very lucky that my family was supportive in my choice not to have children, but not all childfree people are, and I've certainly had my share of being ridiculed by people who simply don't get it. I have gotten a lot of the wrath that folks like Sarah, nanchan and Joyce have spewed, simply because I realized that raising kids wasn't all it was cracked up to be at a young age, and chose to go a different route. Different does NOT mean wrong, folks!

@Janie - I would rather see childless people who are honest about their feelings and choose to not have children then to see parents give in to the pressure to have children and then neglect or otherwise mistreat them.

Re: nanchan #26

Again, you just don't understand that some childfree people are wired a certain way where they simply don't like babies and don't find anything appealing about them. She was simply being honest in her letter. I certainly don't want one, because they are demanding, smelly, slobbery, emotionally and physically draining beings when they're infants, and I'm sure that every parent in here will agree with me. I see more of the negatives than the positives of having my own children. However, it doesn't mean that I won't be polite when someone brings their kid or grandkid into the office to show off, and it certainly doesn't mean that I don't enjoy being around my nephews.

Just because people have that opinion about children and are honest (at least to themselves ) about how they feel, it doesn't mean that they are toxic personalities.

Re: General BTL

I have to say, so many of you have redeemed my faith in BTL today! I read the letters, and nanchan and Joyce's comments last night, and drafted my reply then, thinking "oh good heavens, here we go with the offended mommies". The site went down before I posted so I headed to bed and clicked "Post Message" in the morning. As I got to reading the rest of the comments coming to LW2's defense and couldn't help but notice that these overshadowed the first two posts, yet remained civil and intelligible. It was so neat to see the btl go from hateful and judgmental last night to fair and reasonable this morning. You guys are awesome!

Re: Steve C

Loved your post today! Moms are an odd bunch (not all of them, to be sure). A few weeks ago I was taken to task simply for stating that I didn't want to have kids for various reasons (there are too many people in the world; I like having spare time and money; I don't care for babies; I don't want to go through pregnancy/childbirth, etc etc) and you'd think I had slapped some of the BTLers in the face, and insulted THEIR motherhood or THEIR children (I was careful not to as it is a personal choice).

I guess you see that to a lesser extent with things like dogs; if I tell a dog lover I'm not crazy about dogs (presumably while it's jumping on my leg, barking, and drooling on my pants) they act like I've kicked their dog and then spat in their face. I love all animals, and I have a fondness for all people and babies just because they are fellow living things. Doesn't mean I want one of my own or want to hold them and I wish more people would respect that.

Ultimately, it's best to have a baby (or a dog) only if you truly want one. Guilting or shaming a woman into motherhood is so backwards.

Re: nanchan

LW2 was, in part, venting. The day she wrote that letter was probably the third day that week that a new mom in her circle (maybe she's in her 20's and everyone around her is having kids) pushed a baby on her and she was fed up. I will bet you that I have had a tirade in my own head identical to this the last time I heard the term "mommy blogger" or "supermom", or saw a huge stroller taking up an aisle at a grocery store, or saw a woman changing a baby on a table at a restaurant, or sat on a plane between three crying infants. I have the same feeling when my inlaws try to force their smelly little shih-tzu on me with the idea that it's MY responsibility to greet her so she calms down and stops barking. People have spikes and dips in emotion and often say things that are not representative of their every day attitude toward the thing in question. Recognize the letter for what it is: letting off steam, and looking for validation.

And hey, I will also bet you that every one of us, as babies, interacted with someone who was acting nice but truly thinking "ugh I hate babies, gross" and we all somehow survived.

"LW, who are you to decide for another person what they find appealing?"
That's why she said that SHE doesn't SEE what the appeal is. It is her *o-p-i-n-i-o-n*.

"Why discriminate against babies?"
Because babies will leak and smell all over you if you hold them for them for too long. Why add that extra bit of snot or screeching-right-by-your-ear to your day if you don't have to?

She doesn't SAY "ew smelly leaky" to the parents. I have SEEN parents react with shock and offense when you say "no thanks, I'd rather not hold her". THAT is what LW2 is referring to when she says "However, these same parents are shocked to learn that I am not as thrilled with their little darlings as they are". I highly doubt she is saying "actually I don't want to hold your brat because I think it is horrid and disgusting."

In other words, nanchan, you are getting sucked into LW2's venting session and turning it into a fight over "oh no the poor babies will sense it and grow up to be maladjusted, sad individuals and oh man you are sooooo toxic go away!" If moms accepted her choice for what it was, this wouldn't be an issue anyway, so why insult her? You could have accomplished your goal (keeping poor, poor babies away from this monster of a person) by giving her a good line to say, and eeeveryone would go home happy.

Re: Janie

Girl, I am SO with you. Once I accepted that it was okay for me to not have kids, I realized how liberating it was. I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, and I am not contributing to the overpopulation of the planet. Recycle all you want, but not having a kid is THE way to reduce your carbon footprint. I like new people, I'm all for others having them, and who knows; I may change my tune in five years. But right now, I can get up at noon, eating cookies for breakfast, and go out dancing till four a.m. Except for that pesky thing called a job, of course.

Wow, longest post ever. Sorry all!

@LW2 You aren't alone, when my son was born our room mate was of a similar mindset. We knew long before we were expecting that she felt she had no "maternal fiber to her being at all", she got along with kids and loved her nieces, but didn't feel comfortable around small babies. And that was ok, we didn't expect her to babysit or raise our child, she was an adult with her own life and a friend of the family.
She came to visit in us in the hospital once my son was born, and the nurse (probably thinking that all women go nuts over newborns) moved over and plopped my son into her arms (including positioning her arms to support the baby's head) while talking about how adorable he is, and just walked away from her without *once* looking at my roomie's face. She was mortified, I was facing her and saw it, she was terrified and had no idea what to do.
I just got up and moved close enough that kiddo was right against me, slipped my arms in to support the baby, and held him myself. Roomie, was too afraid to move for fear of dropping him or hurting him, and looked like she was about to either cry or pass out from the stress.
Some people... just have no idea how to process children that young. It doesn't mean you're broken.
Some of the body-language advice above might help; hold your hands behind your back, keep a cup of tea or a glass of something to drink in your hand, or a purse/bag over your shoulder (anything to keep a hand full, to show you're otherwise occupied). Sometimes it's also easy to "arrange" for someone else who is all game to snuggle with a baby in between you and the child in question, but if you get caught on the spot just take a page from some friends of mine as you put up your hands and take a step back:
"Oh no, I couldn't. If I broke him/her, I couldn't replace them. If your arms are getting tired though, perhaps mom (or another person who is comfortable holding babies" can take them back?"
Put the responsibility back on them :)
PS: my roomie loved entertaining my son from a distance, and making squirrel noises at him from across the room. I credit her for my son's passion with animal sounds :)

I like LW2.
She is trying to be thoughtful of the other people's feelings and thoughtful of the babies' needs. Her original phrase sounds perfect to me.

And I am someone who is a prime candidate to be a baby-snatcher, if only I could sneak one past my husband, LOL.

LW2 As a childless by choice woman of 50, I was getting a littel tense reading the initial response to LW2, but then some of you (liminade & Katrina were two of them) jumped in and pretty much described my point of view.

I'm actually fine when they get to be about a 1 year old and have some personality of their own. To say that not liking babies is the same as not liking black people is really far off IMO. Black people are all different - different personalities, interests, talents, intellect, etc. Babies just a few months old are basically all the same, even though you might think that YOURS is the most precious thing ever.

@ Zoe -
I fell in love with you when I saw your first post today, and your "longest post ever" has done nothing to dissuade me. Well said, Zoe-meister. My husband said only the other day, "Miss Pasko, it matters not how many plastic bags you re-use, nor how many teabags go to the compost heap, nor whether you wear an extra layer whilst turning down the thermostat. If you've had a child, you've just blown your carbon footprint out of the water."

Excuse me, I need to go plant a tree now.

@Zoe - I personally am not offended by the fact that you don't want children. I was once offended by the fact that you criticized an LW as irresponsible for have three children. I can't speak for anyone else, but at least from my perspective that was what caused such a raucous in BTL. The truth is that just as some of us mommies can express very judgemental views about childless people, the reverse is also very true.

While as I stated, people are entitled to decide whether or not they want children, the two things that grate my nerves on this topic are 1) when childless people try to tell people who actually have children how to parent; and 2) When people criticize parenting choices like the number of children they want to have or benign parenting decisions that do not fall in within the parameters of abuse.

@Miss Pasko exactly. Nowhere is LW2 saying that she TELLS the parents her inner dialogue about "leaky messy babies". What she SAYS to them is polite, but it's when they *push* their babies into her arms against her will that she has a problem -- and she still is looking to find a NICE way to deflect them.

Any suggestion LW2 is the problem, or has a problem because of her opinion, is off-base. The only problem LW2 has is with clueless parents who aren't listening to her when she says she doesn't want to hold their baby.

@C Meier - WKH was making the point that to say that you don't like babies is a generalization and is no different from saying you don't like any group of people. And no, babies are not all the same. I have a set of twins who were very different personalities literally from the moment of both. One was temperamental - he cried if his bath water wasn't the perfect temp. He was alert and watched EVERYTHING. He was demanding and loved attention. He also smiled and laughed very early and did so often. The other was mellow, and really didn't start showing us who he was until somewhere around 9 months. Even then, he just had a really easy-going personality - nothing ever phased him. Zen all the time. WKH's example was not meant to be belligerent but to make the point that is is not acceptable to say that you don't like any group of people. Sure, you don't have to like kids, but why is it PC to make such a blanket statement?

@ Lise comment 18-bang on, sister.

@nanchan: "I have never had any desire to have children, and I don't see what the appeal is." - OK. I can respect you don't want to have children, but BILLIONS of people throughout time HAVE or you wouldn't be here. LW, who are you to decide for another person what they find appealing?

I don't read it at all that she she's deciding for others what is appealing. She's merely stating that *despite* such widespread appeal, she doesn't feel the same way. She's not berating people for having kids, just that she doesn't want babies thrust into her arms.

I can't remember which poster it was, but someone commented that if you are going to have NINE KIDS, you should be able to take care of them. Yes, people fall on hard circumstances, etc and being poorer doesn't mean that you shouldn't have kids. But having nine is deliberate or exceedingly stupid if you haven't figured out how to raise them. I don't know that LW1 begrudges her mom a nice dinner out or some luxuries-it seems to me that LW is unhappy about the frequency for which she is asked for money, and then guilted when she doesn't comply.

I firmly believe that when people say, "I can't afford X," it often means, 'I don't want to afford X" or "it's not quite the priority as Z." EG I have a friend that wants to go to a festival. Cheapest tickets are $240. Most expensive are $390. For a week. There are plenty of other costs involved, but I hate the whining about how they couldn't get cheap tickets so they can't go. They have the best time, etc etc etc. Really want to go etc etc etc But. You can't figure out a way to find an extra $20/day to go?! Cut 3 drinks out of your weekly partying budget for the next 8 months. Or man up and say, as much as I keep yammering on about how great this festival is, it's not great enough for me to find an extra $150 over what I paid last year. And to be clear, that extra $150 is a tiny amount compared to the over all cost of getting there, food, etc. $1000-1500. End tangential rant.

@Sharnee-
who says everybody has to be PC? I don't think that we all have to censure our speech or change our opinions because somebody MIGHT be offended (or even if you know somebody WILL be offended).

@C Meier - Agreed. But the pendulum swings both ways. If you or anyone chooses to not censor their speech to be PC, then don't be surprised when people are offended. But if they are, you don't have to own their problem. But you commented on WKH's post - and I was giving you my interpretation of what she was saying... I could be way off base since I am not a mind reader. But my understanding of her point was that she finds it odd that people can feel that it OK to say they don't like a group of people (in this case babies) but then turn around and feel offended - just as you seemed to - when she countered with a similar non-PC statement (black people). A group of people is a group of people and discrimination is discrimination.

Again re: Sharnee-
I'm sure that you could see the difference between your twins right from the start. But what usually happens to me is a co-worker is on maturnity leave and brings in the baby when it about 3 or 4 weeks old, and they are there for maybe 10 minutes. In that situation, it is very difficult to tell a baby's personality, to me, they pretty much all seem the same. Like I said TO ME - I'm not demanding or even asking that anybody agree with me.

Again with to Sharnee - was typing my last post as you byped your. I was not offended by whk's comment. I just said IN MY OPIONION it wasn't fair. And I meant that it's not fair to say that to the person who doesn't like babies, not not fair to black people.

@C Meier - I understand that. Of course as their mother, I would see the differences in my children. Someone who is not interested in children or even someone who does like children but who isn't a parent of the child in question, will never see what the parent sees. That is OK. But I don't think that has anything at all to do with the point WKH was making.

Re: sharnee

I don't want to get back into the whole thing, but as I said the last time - it was just my opinion, and I still believe in it. The world is overpopulated, so adding to that is, in my opinion, irresponsible (especially when you add more than what you already - so two people having three kids). So is not recycling, letting your car idle, over watering your lawn, whatever. My original question is, and has been: "so, you think the world needs more people, or you just wanted more kids?" but I never actually ask that of anyone. I'm not mad at people having kids, I just choose not to do because I think the planet deserves a break. SOME people need to keep having kids, clearly; I just wish that over all we could slow down a bit.

See, Miss Pasko's with me! Woo, girl, you and me will have none and someone else will have a couple extra ones and maybe it'll all work out.

Regarding the "why is it PC to say you don't like babies" - because it's one thing to dislike a certain stage of life, and another to dislike a group of people based on gender, race, etc - something that can't, and will never, change. I don't like teenagers, hipsters, infants, and I'm uncomfortable around the debilitated elderly. I don't think any of us thinks that babies deserve lesser or different rights, but that WE have the right to not be around them if we don't to. Even more so with babies - you describe differences you noticed in your kids but many people will not notice that, not being around them 24/7 and not being their mother. You can't really make friends with a baby (which is why I like toddlers - you CAN make friends with them). It's not about hating babies, it's just that those of us who don't want to be around them, wonder "what's the point?" because it can be hard to see a damp, screeching pink blob as a person. We KNOW they are, and we'll get to know and love them when they can interact with us in a meaningful way. Until then, stay in mommy's arms.

I guess you could call it temporary non-PCness if you wanted, if you're that concerned about it. You can liken it to being racist if you choose, but in my mind it is not the same thing. Also, as a woman, I find it slightly offensive that someone would compare someone not wanting to hold babies or not liking to babies, to women's oppression throughout the ages. It's not the same, guys.

My advice to LW1... next time Mom whines to you about not being able to afford something for HER kids, just say vaguely, "That's too bad" and change the subject or stroll away. I learned to do this with a relative who wanted me to constantly babysit for free. ("Gosh, I wanted to do this/that - but I can't get anyone to watch the kids!" *Mournful sigh/peek at me hopefully through eyelashes*)
Do NOT give in to blackmail or use YOUR money for her responsibilities. And if you do want to give your siblings something, give it to THEM (and make sure it's not returnable).

@ Sharnee
"I could be way off base since I am not a mind reader. But my understanding of her point was that she finds it odd that people can feel that it OK to say they don't like a group of people (in this case babies) but then turn around and feel offended - just as you seemed to - when she countered with a similar non-PC statement (black people). A group of people is a group of people and discrimination is discrimination."

The difference is people grow out of being babies. They don't grow out of being black (or any other race).

I don't really have an opinion on people who choose not to have kids. Their life, their choice. Why would that have anything to do with me?
However, I do have an issue with the way /some/ child free people choose to express utter disdain of kids and people who have kids. Why should this disdain be acceptable in polite society? After all, it would not be considered polite to express disdain of any other group of people--the example of "I hate blacks" (I don't) is not socially acceptable. Childfree people don't want to be judged for not having kids. Fine. But it goes both ways. They shouldn't judge other people for having children either. And it's not like the children had a choice to be born into this world, so I'm not sure why they should be resented by anyone.
I don't think there's anything wrong with not be being interested in babies, they just aren't very interesting until they become little people. But LW2 went beyond not interested, she's downright degrading in her choice of words.
And /some/ child-free people tend to go way beyond just expressing an opinion. As a mother of two, sometimes I think children are almost persecuted in American society (It is not this way in Europe or any Asian country). Bringing a child on a plane or public area gets rolled eyes, groans, and rude comments. And my children are better behaved then many of the adults I see around them. I don't take them to places where they shouldn't be (nice restaurants), unlike some dog owners I know. There are more ordinances protecting pets than children in my city, which is a bit ridiculous. Restaurants are required to allow dogs in their outdoor seating areas, but not children, for example. I didn't realize how used to the child-hostility I was until I went to another country and saw how child friendly people were. That's sad. Treat others the way you would wish to be treated. That should apply to children to. Children deserve the same respect as anyone else. They are human beings. You should not expect your contempt for anyone to be socially acceptable. If you don't want to hold a baby, a simple, "I'm not comfortable holding babies, thanks." will do. Or if you're not comfortable being straight forward, "I have a cold and I don't want to her to catch it" will also work.
And I agree, with nanchan, I would /never/ want someone like LW2 holding my child. The only people holding my babies were ones that expressly asked to do so. And spent some time getting to know them first.

Re: Zoe
Regarding the "why is it PC to say you don't like babies" - because it's one thing to dislike a certain stage of life, and another to dislike a group of people based on gender, race, etc - something that can't, and will never, change. I don't like teenagers, hipsters, infants, and I'm uncomfortable around the debilitated elderly. I don't think any of us thinks that babies deserve lesser or different rights, but that WE have the right to not be around them if we don't to. Even more so with babies - you describe differences you noticed in your kids but many people will not notice that, not being around them 24/7 and not being their mother. You can't really make friends with a baby (which is why I like toddlers - you CAN make friends with them). It's not about hating babies, it's just that those of us who don't want to be around them, wonder "what's the point?" because it can be hard to see a damp, screeching pink blob as a person. We KNOW they are, and we'll get to know and love them when they can interact with us in a meaningful way. Until then, stay in mommy's arms.


Agism isn't any more acceptable than racism. Ask the unemployed 50 years what they think of it.

@Zoe - I don't want to rehash that whole thing from before either. I was only trying to convey that I don't recall many people being upset by you simply saying you don't like children. As far as your points of view on the matter - I can agree to disagree with you.

As far as the rest about others not seeing my children the way I do, of course you're right. I said the same thing to C Meier a few posts ago. I get that. And I am not mad at anyone who expresses the sentiment that they are uncomfortable with babies, children, teens, whatever. I will correct you that my babies were screeching brown blobs, not pink ones (joking) but I get your point. As a parent I can also assure you that being thrown up on and peed and pooped on was not my favorite part of parenting, but neither was it the part that stood out the most to me about babies. But again, the fact that someone else feels this way doesn't bother me in the least. The point where people become outraged is where others show disgust for children as if they were worthless - which I also agreed above - that LW2 is not doing.

Regarding the comparison WKH made, I am just saying that I get where she is coming from and I personally am not offended by her comparison. Her retort was meant to be a little shocking to get people to see that what they are saying "I don't like babies!" is a little discriminatory.

Holy Mary Mother of God. I hope none of you folk BTL are answering this innane post at work about holding other peoples babies. Then taking the time to condem others for their post. I guess I'm the only one who thought, "what an idiotic thing to write an advice columnist about." I don't want to read the next days post about how you got fired for writing into an advice column BTL while on the job. For those of you not on the clock - Holy Mary Mother of God, there are certainly more important things to fight about.

I was reading the first postings and wondered if I had missed something big after reading the initial posts. Im glad to see that I'm not the only person to think that LW1 isn't toxic or somehow bad just because she doesn't like babies. I do think she needs to chill a bit and not take herself so seriously, but it's totally ok for people to not like, not want to be around, or hold anyone's babies - they can still be good people. It's a big world and it takes all sorts to make it go around.
As for LW1 - I think that it's safe to say that this person knows her mom a heck of a lot better than us, and actually sounds like a decent person. So Ithink if she is saying the mom is spending money on herself rather than her kids (not just an occasional treat) AND expecting the daughter to pay for expenses, then she is probably telling it how it is. Not very fair to rip into her for feeling it's the mom's responsibility to take care of her children's needs first and her indulgences last. That's what parenthood is about. Especially when you choose to have 9 kids.
So I second the voices who have already said to treat your siblings to the things they want and don't give any money to your mom. If you can view the things you buy for the kids as treats for them, then you may not resent your mother as much. It's a heck of a lot easier than expending your energy trying to change another person.

Re: Bean

- I doubt that most child-free-by-choice people are judging people for having kids. I know I can get judgmental when I see parents with a LOT of kids, particularly when they can't afford them, but four and under? Have at it, not my business what you do with your uterus.
- I don't think anyone is resenting babies. They may resent parents who assume that everyone wants to hold / spend time with the baby, or when a parent ignores their crying baby. But, and I only speak for myself, when I look at a baby I might think "cute" or "bleh so noisy" or "eww runny nose". I do NOT think "I hate that baby for being a baby!"
- The resentment you see from people like LW2 is a build-up of frustration, and an effort to push BACK against pushy parents. Most people do not start out a nice new day thinking "man, I can't WAIT to hate on some babies today!" It is a feeling of frustration that is directly caused by pushy parents, crying babies in the restaurant, terms like "supermom", coddled and spoiled brats, new moms who won't stfu for five seconds. I'm not saying that any of these things are wrong, just that they get seriously annoying when you start to encounter it more frequently. And then we push back, which is a natural reaction even though it's not "right" by rolling our eyes at babies at the restaurant. By being a little too quick to say "ugh, I hate babies" in like-minded company. Each of those statements and actions is the result of someone changing their baby on the table at the restaurant, or of someone ignoring their wailing child, or being "forced" to listen to how wonderful their new baby is.

It happens with so many things, not just babies. Cyclists say they hate drivers; cat people say they hate dogs; teens say they hate their parents. Generally, none of these statements is true, and if you take them personally you are getting way too emotionally invested in a issue that really doesn't have anything to do with you, and you starting saying righteous things like: "And I agree, with nanchan, I would /never/ want someone like LW2 holding my child." HELLO! That's all LW2 ever wanted! If all moms could agree to not thrust babies into the arms of people who do not say "can I hold him/her?" LW2 would never have gotten this frustrated and would never have written into the Annies complaining about how leaky and noisy babies are.

You say: "Agism isn't any more acceptable than racism. Ask the unemployed 50 years what they think of it." No, ask an infant what THEY think of it. My guess is, not a lot. And that hooey about how they can sense hostility? Sure, whatever - they can sense it, but can they remember it, and will it have any impact on their development if they are sufficiently loved? Just don't force them on people, don't let them run around screaming in a restaurant, and keep their faces clean and dry, and I bet you'll be juuust fine and your kids will get a whole lot of love from a whole lot of people. Win-win.

Re: sharnee

Yikes, good call on the pink/brown blobs!

I agree that saying "I don't like babies" is discriminatory, I just don't really agree that it's harmful. It is an unfortunate truth that humans are hard-wired to discriminate - in old, old, old times it kept tribes/family groups tightly knit and loyal. It has no place in civilized society but it will never go away, it just gets replaced by something else to hate on (e.g., zombies). I would rather someone have been grossed out by me as a baby, than look down on me as an adult because of the colour of my skin, or my sexual orientation, or my gender.

Re: Penny

No, I thought this too "what an idiotic thing to write about" - only I thought it when I read your post whining about other people whining about someone whining to an advice columnist. Would you like to spend some time whining about my reply, since apparently you also don't have anything better to do?

@Penny, like the all-important, crucial post about how other people are inane for posting about something idiotic a LW to an advice column wrote? Making THAT kind of comment, that's *clearly* well worth the time and effort, obviously. :-)

It's all entertainment, Penny. No better, no worse than watching TV or clips on YouTube or reading a romance novel. No need to take the name of the Lord's Mother in vain about it, really.

@Zoe "I would rather someone have been grossed out by me as a baby, than look down on me as an adult because of the colour of my skin, or my sexual orientation, or my gender."

I would feel this way too if I thought that WKH was being serious and not satirical.

Nothing makes Bitey Fish happier than being asked to hold a baby.

Re: Bitey Fish

Hmm, I had not thought of that as a good line for LW2! Perhaps next time she ought to say "oh, no, I couldn't possibly, I already so much today!"

Not my fault this double posts.

@Penny sorry we're commenting on something so inane. We should all strive to insult others instead, like you. Got it.
"A group of people is a group of people and discrimination is discrimination." BIG difference between babies and people. Babies are in a *stage*. They are not babies forever. They are not the social, emotional, or intellectual equal of adults. Totally makes sense to me why some adults aren't all that keen to hang out with kids. Black (or white, Chinese, Korean etc etc) people are not in a developmental stage. They cannot change or control their skin color. Same goes for gender. Not at all the same.
And you know what? Religion is a choice. I feel totally comfortable saying I wouldn't choose to hang out with a group of very religious people, who have made their beliefs well known. Because what they choose to believe is at odds with my world view. I fervently defend their freedom to live and believe as they choose, but I'm not going to be around them. However, if I said I didn't want to hang out with Asians, VERY different feeling and connotation.

Oops. "I already ATE so much today".

Way to ruin the punch line, Zoe.

Re: Maggie Lawrence - Well, I just got out of the shower so I'm just wearing a white towell. I like to air dry and watch the water as is runs down the contours of my lean, tanned body. I like the way little pools of water collect in indents on my abs. I'm snowed in today so maybe a towell is all I'll need.....no place I need to be ....nothnig I need to do....maybe I'll work out....again. I've got some marinara sauce simmering on the stove and a nice bottle of Chiante open and breathing on the counter. Oops....my towell came undone.........

Re: nanchan "That's one reason I don't believe in babytalking babies, why talk to them like they are morons"
My mother once observed that my son communicated with adults so well because we always talked to him 'like he was a person' (no baby talk.) Also, we always had reasonable explanations for things that we didn't dumb down. We also told him whatever the punishment might be for something, the punishment for lying about it would be worse. Most of the stuff he was scared to tell us didn't even warrant punishment. We'd just tell him what he needed to do about it and let him take care of it. (If he was in a fender bender, he had to call the insurance guy, and if my insurance had gone up he would have been required to pay the difference, etc.)

LW1 - I'm not so sure mom is intentionally selfish; she may simply have problems budgeting, and after years of her particular financial habits, it is going to be very difficult to change them. It's ok to help out once, directly for the kids as Annie suggested, but the next time mom asks for similar help, you can point out the pattern to mom in a non-confrontational way: "I notice that you've been asking me for monetary help quite often, is there something else you might need help with, like a budgeting plan? I'd hate to see you stuck in the same predicament when Christmas comes and you can't buy presents for the kids."

LW2 - Sorry, Annies, but your suggested responses, "putting up hands and feigning alarm" or "holding out hands and backing away" will make the LW look like a complete nutcase. There's a much better, nicer solution.

When offered a baby, she can simply put her hands behind her back, smile politely, and say "I appreciate the offer, but no thank you." Or if she sees a baby approaching her lap, she can simply stand up for a moment so it doesn't happen.

She doesn't owe any more explanation or action than that.

@Penny
The only point I do agree with Penny on is that SOME poster's BTL seem to have a habit of condemning the other posters, not just stating their opinion or advice, or pointing out why they don't think another poster is correct. There are many personal attacks on this board.

I think Sharnee has actually done an excellant job of not getting pulled into that situation today.

Re: sharnee Did you really make not liking babies a PC issue in #43? I love what you post usually, but have to say - not liking babies isn't a PC issue, really it isn't! Just like me not liking shih tzu's isn't a PC issue; it's not "breedist" or racist.
And it's perfectly acceptable, in my book, to make a blanket statement saying "I don't like babies (in general.)"

I'm sorry folks, but while some PC monitoring is ok and even good (hate issues), let's not be the thought and feeling police.

@Kristen
I bristle at the term "PC", because I think people should behave and speak in a certain way because they are kind, polite, have empathy, etc., not because is POLITICALLY correct. That is the reason I was also bothered by that particular termonology, but think Sharnee was respectful in her posts.

Re: C Meier

I have to admit, I am baffled by people who say they come here to give their opinion and not engage with others in conversation unless it's just to agree. I come here because I love to debate and discuss all kinds of things with all kinds of people, not so I can bestow upon you all my wise advice and float away. I don't really see a lot of personal attacks today or BTL in general. There is a HUGE difference (IMO) between getting in a heated debate, and calling someone fat and stupid.

Re: kristen

Ugh, my inlaws would disagree with you about the shih-tzu thing. Last summer, I spent some time talking to their neighbour's calm husky while ignoring their hyper, yapping shih-tzu. I got an angry e-mail from them the next day basically saying that I should have pet the dog so it would calm down instead of making a bee-line for the already calm dog.

Hey... I just realized that the title of today's column is actually about LW1 and not LW2!

@ Katrina - post 7
Well said!
As a "parent" of two cats - I understand and agree with you.
To us and many others like us, our pets are our family.
Some folks like to hear our cat stories, others don't. And to clarify even further, a dog lover is not necessarily a cat lover and vice versa.
OFF TOPIC ALERT
To the music lovers out there:
Where would Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and The Big Bopper be now if they hadn't died so young on this day in 1959.

LW2 - Years ago, I was visiting some of my boyfriend's family with he and his dad. His aunt offered to let me hold her infant, I politely declined. My future FIL said 'It's different when it's your own.' He was right, I couldn't put our babies down when they were little. Still, to this day, I have no interest in holding anyone else's infant. Just continue politely refusing. Keep in your mind that most people don't get that 'it's different when it's your own'.

Sorry, didn't put in enough spaces between the lines.

@C Meier - I am confused, did I personally attack? I was just trying to explain my personal understanding of what another poster meant.

@Kristen - I have posted several times today, so it makes sense that you might have missed the times when I said that I personally don't have an issue with people not being comfortable around children or seeing things how they see them. As stated to C Meier above, I was just stating my understanding what was written by another poster. I liked her use of irony and felt that while she was making a strong statement to get attention, she really was not being serious in the contrast. Just an attempt to provoke thought on the fact that the statement was discriminatory, which I agree that it is.

@C Meier - Sorry, disregard my last post. I misread your post.

Re LW#2--------Would not be a problem if Mommy of Baby just waited to see if the person she is with ASKS if he/she can hold the baby. I would no more have foisted my baby on someone who didn't appear to be interested than I would grab my pet and throw it in their lap and say "Isn't Fido sweet?" Both are rude. Wait till you're asked to hand Baby over---------------no problem. If you push and get repulsed--------well, your fault for pushing in the first place.
I like some kids, don't like others. I especially hate being in a public place and listening to a screaming brat whose parents' mindset is "Well, if you don't like it, how about YOU leave?"
And if I want to make over a child or baby, I am capable of initiating it. If I DON'T initiate it, hopefully its mom has brains enough to pick up on that and hold her baby herself.
------------------
Re LW#1------I agree that the writer was not saying she didn't want to help her siblings-------she was saying that a person who CHOSE to bring 9 kids into the world and then expects her older kid to help support the younger kids while spending what money she has on herself is a selfish person. LW resents the selfishness.
Tough thing to answer, though, since the small children will be the ones to suffer.
I guess the only thing to do is to continue helping her siblings, making sure that whatever she buys actually goes to them, but I don't see anything wrong with saying to her mom "Yes, I will pay for the field trip cost, but if you had not spent your money on getting your nails done, you would have been able to do it yourself."
Anyone with 9 kids, unless she is a millionaire, SHOULD be short of money to spend on herself, since every penny should have gone to take care of the living beings she insisted on adding to an already overpopulated world.

Re: nonegiven

I completely agree with you. My daughter is bilingual and before she was even born we consulted a speech expert about how to best raise a bilingual child. Her advice was for each native speaker to speak to the child in their own language and to speak as you would to an adult, same speed, same verbiage (omitting the obvious foul language). We did this: it was highly confusing for most people because I would speak to her in English, her father would speak to her in Japanese and when she was a baby, we lived in Japan so she would answer us both back in Japanese. To add into the confusion, her babysitter was French and spoke French to her and my parents would speak German(!). Result: she's completely bilingual Japanese and English but understands French and German. All because we just did what what was natural. Kids absorb more than we think they do, which is why you have to be careful not to hand them over to people who dislike babies: they pick up on that vibe.

Oh Rick - you made me laugh so hard the cat jumped off my lap. Whew! I need a cigarette. Too bad I don't smoke.
I may have to go out and howl at the moon early this month.

Random responses - I think I agree with Zoe and Sharnee which is odd, because I think they were disagreeing. Babyhood isn't a permanent state and there's nothing wrong with avoiding babies if they annoy you - unless they're your own. That's different. I never cared for babies, but I loved my two - and boy were they different, from birth.
And don't give me that crap about talking baby talk retarding their verbal development. Or babies "picking up on hostility of someone who doesn't want to hold them." Really? Any of you remember having your feelings hurt at 6 months by someone who didn't want to hold you?

Bean, don't you think it's a bit much to call our fearful, overpadded, helicoptering, child-abuser- behind- every-bush society "child hostile"? I mean, really. If someone with a baby sits down next to me on a plane, my heart sinks because much experience has taught me that parents assume society has as much tolerance for their darlings as they do. And on a plane, there's no escape.

Re: Maggie

I am offended by this. I remember an older cousin saying "eww a baby" when I was an infant and my feelings are still very hurt by this. I have a lasting phobia of being picked up and held gingerly for a few seconds. I still have nightmares about the time a guy at the restaurant rolled his eyes and sighed audibly when I was wailing over a full diaper.

I also am unable to articulate the phrase "precious little fingers" properly; instead I say "pweshus widdle finguhs!"

@Zoe - LOL!

Well, I don't think there's any evidence that "babytalk" harms or hinders the language development of babies -- if we are solely talking about pre-verbal infants; and in fact, I've read some suggesting that it may even help (in part because baby talk is usually high-pitched and more "interesting" than the lower tones adults normally use). You want to make sure that you don't *keep* using baby talk, though, as they enter the verbal stage and into toddlerhood.

The harm seems to come when parents use "baby talk" after the child is no longer a baby. Once a child is starting to put together simple 2 or 3 word sentences, for example, then baby talk *may* slow them down or teach them some bad habits that they may struggle to "un-learn" once they are in kindergarten.

Language development is a pretty interesting field; and it's too bad that more families don't take advantage of that time in their child's life to teach them more than one language. It's the perfect time to develop bilingual or even multilingual ability.

LW2- People should respect your preference not to hold their babies.

Zoe,LOL.

Re: Mike H

Interesting opinion. As noted, we had the opportunuty to talk to an expert while I was pregnant with my daughter re: the bilingual thing which was great. Babytalk (or lack thereof) was an issue that both my parents were pretty passionate about and since mom was a teacher (she specialized in dyslexia before it widely known as a real learning disability) I tend to go with what they did.

I come from an extremely large family (note: post 1 re: LW1) and both my parents came from families where babytalk was considered insulting to the child in everyday speak. I'm sure there were doting friends who used it occasionally, but in everyday communications, my parents were adamant that we talk like adults from an early age. I don't think it does a great deal of HARM to a child to speak "down" to them (babytalk is pretty insulting) occasionally, but as far as vocabulary development, it can be a deterent if used continually on a daily basis.

In my family, because our parents spoke to us as adults, every one of us could read before we entered school. In adulthood, every one of my brothers, sisters and I have college degrees. Three of us own our own businesses, one has become the first woman judge in a very conservative county. All of OUR kids are currently enrolled in college.

And it starts, in my opinion, by respecting the baby/child and not talking down to them.

Oh Zoe - you and Rick have made my day!

Re: nanchan ~~~

Bitey Fish wishes dat widdle Nannychanny would toddew away and make talky-talky somewheah else. Could widdle Nannychanny do dat, pwease? Okey doke, now let's evwybody wave buh-bye to Nannychanny! Bub-bye, Nannychanny, bub-bye!!!

With all the negative feeback slamming I just realized.
My world functions without alot of hate.

Change the words of LW2 to a child of color, wore the wrong label, sure they were on welfare, etc. I would still react the same way.

She drips with disgust. So her disgust got bounced back to her.

I have never been around anyone who has not been amused or caring of someone holding a baby. And if the mom asks if you want to hold them, don't reply with words that make you sound like a leper or a moron. Just a simply NO THANK YOU.

My background of big families where children are so totally welcome, there is a sign up sheet to hold the lastest newbie. And my own children are the same--all guys who won't back off from holding, burping, etc. Plenty of neices/nephews around on 2 and 3 generations down.

As I said, I have never run across anyone who has used the BABY word as if they had just stepped in a pile of cow $hoot.

My favorite memories are the nursery at the hospital--each of us taking 6-10 newborns each day to cuddle and coo and bathe and change. And then teach new moms to do the same thing. Called HUMAN CONTACT.

LW2 level of disgust and distain at babies is what she writes about. Not about the stsranger on the street walking up and asking her point blank of why she won't beg to hold their child. A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Re: nanchan

RE the baby talk thing.

It blows my mind when adults speak it. You wonder if there is something more than a little off. Thing is, my sister's father - law did this with the grandchildren. Then discovered he talked the same way when away from the grandchildren.
When someone would speak in babbling to my children, I would tell them the children spoke English, and would respond better if they did too.

There is a difference when engaging a baby/toddler in sounds and linguistics. Same as when you read a book to a child and do the play action or characterization. There is a set stage where this happens. Not over the pew in church or at the grocery.

As I always say, yes, we teach the children many languages--and our German short hair also understands ASL and when she is spoken to in Korean (kids in TKD).

Bitey:

You are such a cutie wooty fishy; wuv your way with words.

LW1: Granted, your mother sounds like a tool but I don't get why you're upset about it. Have you ever thought your feelings through? It sounds like you're falling into the old stupid trap of, "If my mother really loved me she'd change into the person I need her to be," which then leads to the more stupid trap of, "My mother must think I'm not worthy of love." Most people are damaged. Have you ever met a happy healthy human? Me neither. Stop expecting your mother to be more than she is. Work on fixing yourself.

LW2: You're the first person I've heard of who has babies thrust upon her. You poor afflicted thing. You should move to where there are no babies. Save yourself.

Re: jar8818 ~~ Bitey finks you is a cutie wootie people and is gwad to be you fwend! <:-D)))>-<

@Joyce, except the very point is that LW2 *doesn't* "drip with disgust" in her real life; she's pleasant and even complimentary about the babies. She just doesn't want to hold them, and she is looking for a kind way to deflect those parents who won't take no for an answer.

@Diana, well, now you've heard of two people, because when I was in my mid-20s, a friend of mine *insisted* on putting another friend's baby in my arms every time we all got together, even though I *repeatedly* said I wasn't comfortable doing so.

It happens much more often than you think. In my case, I was known for being occasionally clumsy and so I was petrified I'd drop the baby. So *every time* I would stiffly hold the baby for the absolute minimum amount of time I could get away with, and then would hand her back as quickly as possible, and would make it clear that I did NOT enjoy the experience even though I thought the baby was adorable -- adorable as long as I didn't have to hold her.

This letter, ultimately, is about one adult (the LW's baby-having friends) disrespecting the *stated wishes* of another adult (the LW) who has TOLD them she simply doesn't want to hold the baby. She isn't telling them what she thinks of babies, she isn't making them feel bad for HAVING babies, she just simply doesn't want to HOLD the baby; and yet these people aren't listening to her.

Take babies out of the equation and substitute any other issue where one adult *forces* something on another adult who doesn't want it, and you'll see that this is simply a matter of disrespect *to* the LW; and, even if she vents a little in her letter to Annies, she's *asking* for a *nice* way to make her wishes more respected.

Simple, common courtesy *should* be the rule here, and no parent should ever insist that another adult hold their baby if they don't want to; nor should any parent suggest there's something wrong with an adult who doesn't want to hold a baby.

Everything else that's been added on to this brou-ha-ha is really side-tracking the LW's actual issue.

Re: sharnee

I understand your resistance to taking parenting advice from childfree people (and that IS the term for people like Zoe, C Meier and I. We are not lacking children, therefore we are not childLESS. We are childFREE.), however, we also have a more objective view when it comes to certain things, and we may actually have something to contribute. I don't know about anyone else's experiences, but I also helped raise my younger brother, so I do know a thing or two about parenting, albeit peripherally...which is the main reason why I chose not to have children.

So yeah, we may not have kids, but sometimes we can be the voice of reason.

LW1 -- I think the Annies (and some others here at the ol' BTL) have missed the point of your letter. Your mother is a manipulator and a user. She is telling you her tale of woe specifically so that you will pony up, and you do. I think Mike H has the right of it -- if you wish to keep a decent relationship with your mother and your siblings, when she tells you, "oh, woe, I can't afford to buy them XYZ," you offer to take them on a shopping trip for XYZ. But if this is creating a financial hardship for you, and if you are certain that your siblings are, in fact, being well-provided for, then stop ponying up -- just be aware that what you save in money you will lose in terms of your relationship with your mother and your siblings. BTW -- does she do this to the other older siblings, as well, or just you?

RE: LW2 -- I was once the childless-by-choice woman who wasn't particularly interested in other people's kids and had zero desire to hold other people's babies. I feigned interest in the kids (and I think I did a good job of it -- I took the time to ask what new skill they had mastered if they were babies and also tried always to remember who took tennis, who played basketball, who won the science fair, and always asked about them, etc.), but I did not want to hold them. Unlike the LW, however, my reason for not wanting to hold them had nothing to do with them being smelly, leaky or any of that jazz. Rather, I didn't want to hold them because I knew that ones who were pushiest about wanting me to hold the baby wanted to PROVE that I really do like kids, that I really am great with kids and that I really should HAVE kids. I spent most of my life not wanting kids. I never said I would NEVER have kids, but I said I didn't want them right then and that I honestly just didn't know if I would eventually want them or not. It was REALLY annoying when I would hold someone's baby, and then have to listen to everyone say, "look at that -- you're a natural! I don't know why you don't want kids! You're great with them! You should have kids! Have kids! HAVE KIDS ALREADY!!!" Just as bad were the people who wanted to see me hold a baby because they just assumed I'd be really awkward, and they could be highly entertained by my discomfort (these were also the people who most wanted me to change a diaper because they just assumed I wouldn't know how, would be totally grossed out by it, and then they could be amused by my "torture"). These idiots apparently didn't know that I had enough nieces and nephews that yes, I knew how to hold a baby and was perfectly comfortable doing so (but being comfortable doesn't mean you WANT to do so), and I knew how to diaper a baby, and it's not that big of a deal -- but wow do I not feel a need to prove any of this! Sheesh!

So, part of me feels for the LW, because I remember how annoying all of that was. And the only people who really are thrusting their babies at you and trying to force you to hold them are the ones who are going to go on a tirade about why you should have kids. Trust me, they are just as pompous and unreasonable as the LW sounds when she ticks off all of the reasons she doesn't like kids.

Of course, I ended up wanting to have a baby (but not until I was in my late 30s and had been married for more than a decade) and now have one and am thrilled to discover I actually am a pretty good mom. And now that I'm on the other side, I have to say, I STILL don't understand those people who were trying so lustily to get me to hold their baby and talk me into motherhood. Seriously, if someone doesn't want to hold my child, I couldn't possibly care less! And when someone tells me, "oh, I don't want children," I don't launch into this whole, "I know better than you" bit and try to tell them, "I was like you once, you'll change your mind." Because you know what? I don't care if they ever change their mind! Just because all of us started out as smelly, leaky, crying babies doesn't mean we all of us have to like them or want to have them!

Re: Bean

I think a lot of the reason why there's so much disdain for kids in America are because there are so many "parents" who don't grasp the concept that raising a child requires sacrifice and being a responsible person. Some children out there simply aren't disciplined the way they need to in order to be well-behaved in public, and that unfortunately carries over to kids and parents in general until people are proved otherwise. I have found that Europeans and Asians in general are more involved in their kids' lives on a more meaningful level (just from my observations and from those friends of mine that have told me their stories) and are not afraid to discipline their children if they get out of line.

THIS is why in the States, people behave the way they do towards children. Just takes a few bad apples to ruin the whole bunch.

Re: Lisa

Just a little clarification: you were never childless by choice. You were simply childless.

@Janie -- Before I became a mom (and actually, even now, since I've only been one for about six months) I always prefaced anything that could be interpreted as advice (because even just "observations" can be taken as advice by some) with a, "I don't have kids, so I don't claim to be an expert..." And here's what I believed pre-motherhood and still believe today: yes, there are things about being a parent that you can never understand unless or until you are a parent, but that doesn't mean you don't have anything useful or insightful to say about parenting or kids -- after all, you once were a kid and you had parents. I also agree that child-free people sometimes do have very excellent advice/insight BECAUSE they don't have children. I have a good number of nieces and nephews, and I learned a lot about parenting and children from watching them and their parents. Indeed, when I met a woman who is now a good friend of mine, I had no children and she had three young children. She was surprised at how much I, as a then-childless woman, seemed to "get it" and that I actually did have something to bring to the table when the conversation turned to parental conundrums. I can understand why some people get offended when a childless person tries to tell them how to be parents, but I would never discount a childless person's insight/advice/observations right off the bat.

@Janie -- just saw your note of clarification. I would argue that I WAS childless by choice. I got married when I was 24, and at that time, I seriously doubted I would ever have children because I couldn't imagine having them, so I went on the pill. For 14 years, I CHOSE not to have children. When I eventually decided to give it a try, I went off the pill and (eventually) got pregnant and had a baby. No doubt, if I had instead just left it up to fate to decide if I would become a mother or not, I would have become a mother because my husband and I do (obviously) have sex. If I somehow had managed to not get pregnant for 14 years without using some sort of contraceptive even though I was having regular sex, then I simply would have been childless.

Yes there are people who equate babies and dogs/cats/mice/whatever and those people have serious psychological issues. And yes not wanting to hold a baby for 10 seconds while I tie my shoe and leave with the offending being is being a drama queen.

I say this as a long time animal lover and advocate.

@wkh, except, please note, that nowhere did the LW suggest she was equating babies and animals, nor was she complaining about holding a baby when the parent of the baby needed to do something important like tie a shoe.

The LW is most decidedly NOT being a drama queen, but some of those attacking the LW are approaching that definition, if you ask me.

If you tell me you don't want to do something, and then I force you to do it anyway, are *you* really the one who has serious psychological issues?

Common courtesy and basic human respect doesn't get tossed out just because a baby is involved.

You know, those of us who don't find babies appealing just... don't. Sorry. I'm well aware that many/most people do, and that's very nice for them, but -- some of us don't. I actually find it rather funny -- shove a kitten in my face and I'm all about the adorableness! It's visceral! WHAT a sweetie-pie -- there is no such thing as an unattractive kitten! But babies? I simply do not have that reaction. And faking it is very hard work.
You don't expect every single person in the world to fall all over themselves cooing at kittens, do you? Well then! The person who made the gay analogy was spot-on, I think -- people swing different ways, and you just have to make allowances.

Janie, that comment makes no sense whatsoever.

Re: wkh - as much as I kid you do have a good point. It's a baby. Hold it. Give it back. Go to lunch.

Excuse me please, everyone. I don't usually come back so often for such riveting discussions, but I did have a thought that is just a throwing it out there on the edge of this topic about holding babies. Mike H is right of course - be polite, decline politely if you don't want to. Has nothing to do with defects of character. But here's my thought: (Excuse me while I hike myself up onto the soapbox)

I was remembering a sequence in Kipling's Jungle Book, Mowgli and his Brothers (NOT the Disney movie - please! The book) . There was a new wolf cub in the pack and the wolves had a ceremony during which they encircled the new cub and the leader enjoined the adult wolves to touch and smell the cub so they would know him as one of their pack. The point being - he's one of us. We protect him, we don't hurt him. Yes, fiction I know - but think about it.

A few years later (thirty-one years ago) I have a new baby and my dear friends are visiting. I remember not forcing her on them - I would never do that - but watching anxiously as they held or just interacted with the baby - not out of fear that she'd be dropped, but with a kind of primal anxiety that she would be accepted. I only remember it because I noticed it in myself as it was happening. Is that crazy? Maybe not.

Re: Maggie Lawrence

I agree with your post 105. I think as a mother (or any other caregiver to the child) you should be able to sense the repulsion from someone else towards babies and then act on that.

But that being said.... there are people who can lie REALLY well and it seems like the LW is one of them. She can tell people in one breath (quoting the letter here: "I understand that not all women feel as I do, so when I'm around mothers, I say nice things about their kids and have positive comments when shown pictures.") and then act in a totally different manner when someone the mothers think WOULD be positive towards their child is offered the HONOR of holding that child (Again quoting from the letter: "However, these same parents are shocked to learn that I am not as thrilled with their little darlings as they are." It's a bait and switch in my opinion.

LW1 - I think several folks BTL make some good points. Maybe Mom's truly selfish, I agree there are signs. Maybe Paul W's right and she has chronic bad budgeting habits that she's resistant to change. Maybe it's a combination of both and she's mindlessly selfish.

Regardless, I'm 100% in agreement that LW1 needs to close Bank of Daughter and the sooner the better. I think offering to get what the siblings need is a good alternative - and if Mom balks or squawks at that idea, insisting on the money instead, then the LW will have her confirmation that yes, Mom is indeed selfish and leeching off her. If Mom is just as thrilled over her kids getting cute costumes as gifts, then it could be that she's bad with money in general.

LW2 - I love babies... love, love, love 'em. But I also have a lot of friends who are childless by choice and who have been very good at explaining their reasons, and thanks to them, I completely empathize with where they stand. Then there are a couple people I know who call children "puppy substitutes" and berate all parents, and knowing their background, I also know they're just plain bitter and they DEFINITELY do society a favor by remaining childless.

Something tells me LW2 is in the former crowd - not crazy about babies, but certainly not toxic or bitter. In fact I agree with Lise in that I don't see what's wrong with the way she phrased herself in her letter. It's honest, it's polite, and it explains her perfectly. If someone's going to be rude by pushing their baby on her, then get offended, then gee, maybe LW2's not the one with the problem at that rate :-)

LW3 - Thank you for writing that. I get the feeling you helped a lot of readers today, not just the original LW.

LW1--"I now see how often Mom tells her children she doesn't have money for them, but somehow finds it for herself. She is a very selfish person." I'd be willing to be dollars to donuts that your mother is a single child. My mother was a single child but bore seven children. Unfortunately, as a single child she had no concept of siblings and absolutely no idea what it meant to share or sacrifice. While kind and loving, my mother was very self-centered which meant her needs and wants came first, above and beyond anyone else's. My mother never worked outside the home. While we were told there was little money for extracurriculars, every day brought a new package in the mail with some new piece of clothing or gadget. All of us children were told early on if we wanted to attend college, we would have to study hard and earn scholarships as there was no money for college. My mother actually had several credit cards maxed out, which she hid from my father. Even now in old age, my mother complains that she has no money for the basics, yet her house is full of useless bric-a-brac and other junk. She's managed to purchase at least three entire living room sets and every time I visit, the walls are painted a different color. Personally I believe she's a compulsive shopper with hoarding tendencies. I for one refuse to succumb to my mother's hard luck stories or hints for handouts knowing that she's a big girl and responsible for her own financial well-being. Simply smile and suggest she perhaps look into financial planning. You're not responsible for her irresponsibility or selfishness. Trust me, the children will grow up stronger and fiercely independent as a result.

LW2--Okay guys, despite what you're all thinking, I did NOT write this letter!!!!!

Re: Chris

Re: LW1

Your mother's mistakes should NOT be visited upon anybody else. Helping your siblings should be seen as helping your siblings, regardless of age. That's the point. NO ONE here (gosh I hope I got that right so the Grammar Nazis don't decend me on top of all the other petty juveniles) has suggested enabling the mother. But there is no reason to make the kids suffer because you doubt the mother's ability to correctly use the money for the purpose it was intended.

In my case, I've been very blessed by friends and family who helped me to raise my daughter and to give her things I couldn't. But in my eyes, the help they gave me was totally separate than things they gave to my daughter.

If there is any doubt of that in the giver's eyes (in this case the LW), the gifts should be given in the form intended (is actual school supplies as opposed to money to be spent on school supplies.).

Sorry you have to go through that Chris.

@Janie - I have friends who do not have children whether by choice or otherwise. I discuss my parenting dilemmas all the time with them and they tell me what they think. Sometimes what they say is reasonable and good advice. But none of my friends would ever presume to assume an authoritative tone and start dictating child-rearing principles to me in the manner that some of the as you say "child-free" people have done on forums like this and other sites. My friends understand that there are things that they have not experienced and will not fully understand until they have experienced them. True sometimes being detached from a situation helps, but other times it means that you don't have the complete picture. As Lisa stated, there are things that you simply just don't know to even think about until you are responsible for a tiny little helpless life.

In fact, the thing I love about my children's pediatrician is that she is young and has young children of her own. Some of her advice comes from her medical background and some of it comes from her personal experience as a mom. I didn't know whether or not she had children when I scheduled our first visit, but it was a comfort to know that her perspective wasn't purely clinical once I found out.

Re: Zoe
"Why is it that so many parents get SO offended by the mere mention that someone might not like kids in general?"
Because the idea that a woman doesn't like babies is anathema and heretical to her first and foremost purpose in life - making babies. (sarcastic font on)
In spite of all the advances in women's condition and all that, that way of thinking is still prevalent: producing and nurturing a family is a woman's purpose first and foremost, everything else comes AFTER. The saddest part is that a lot of people who think like that refuse to see (never mind admit) that they do, and therefore nothing is changing any time soon. And it's not just parents. It's people in general - both men and women. I've seen it too many times to count.
"Wow, longest post ever. Sorry all"
All forgiven, nothing to forgive in fact, as I hope the other long-post producers BTL will agree... ;-D
"I would rather someone have been grossed out by me as a baby, than look down on me as an adult because of the colour of my skin, or my sexual orientation, or my gender."
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP, standing ovation!
"Oops. "I already ATE so much today". Way to ruin the punch line, Zoe."
Don't worry about that. We had gotten it already.
Post #81
LOL!
@nanchan
"My issue is not with the fact that the LW doesn't want to hold babies."
Given that you called her a toxic personality, you sure had me fooled - all of us, in fact.
"it's in her disgust for them."
Yeah, so? She's allowed to feel disgusted at the fact that they ARE "messy, leaky, smelly and noisy, as well as demanding and expensive". People who love babies will overlook all of that. People who don't will not, and she's one of them. This is supposed to be the land of brave, where people live in freedom and in the pursuit of happiness. Her idea of such does not including holding an adorable little leaky tub and, you know what? She is allowed the liberty.
Post #109
"(gosh I hope I got that right so the Grammar Nazis don't decend me on top of all the other petty juveniles)"
Now you're being a b*tch. Sorry - but you ARE.
@Janie
"people who simply don't get it."
Trust me, they get it. Oh, they really do. They just don't give a damn how you feel. As far as they're concerned, you should just open up your legs and perform your purpose as a baby machine and shut up - who cares how you "feel". I've seen a lot of that.
My daughter has NEVER wanted children. It's not that she "hates" babies. She absolutely loves them - on a very, very occasional basis. The gist of it is - she doesn't have the patience to deal with an adorable screamy, little leaky tub, doesn't have what it takes to sign up on a life-long contract, AND, she is wise and mature enough to know it (I absolutely love my daughter). You can rest assured that she wouldn't know the first thing about holding a newborn safely, nor would she know one puking end to another leaking other.
And me, who never liked playing with dolls and don't particularly like babies (they ARE smelly, aren't they? Either coyingly, milky-sweet or peeingdly/crappy stinky), was yet a very good mother (AND big sister) and am still very protective of my sweet baby... ANYONE who would give her flak about her childlessness in front of me would get the VERY rought edge of my very potty mouth.
You know what? I think a lot of women, deep down inside a place where they don't want to look... while they wouldn't want the children they had not to exist, they yet regret that they were the ones to bring them into the world and ESPECIALLY the price they had to pay. They regret not having had the werewithall to go against the grain and refuse to have children, because they didn't want to be subjected to what they themselves are subjecting childless women to. Their hostility towards childless women is really misplaced anger at themselves, for not having had the courage to take that route themselves.
"So yeah, we may not have kids, but sometimes we can be the voice of reason."
You know the personal expression I always use, "Between principle and practice, anything can happen"? Well, there is no area where it's not applicable more than child-rearing. I do remember the ideas I had BEFORE I was a mother... and what happened to *some* of them in practice. Not all - but many... many of them.
And you know what? I was 13 when the first of my father's second crop of children with my stepmother were born. I was the perfect, built-in baby-sitter. One thing I learned over many years - taking care of your baby brother gives you PRACTICAL experience - how to hold the head of an infant, get him to burp, how to change diapers and put the pin in without stabbing him, bottle and spoon feed, sleep lightly, be telepathic on what wicked deed he's possibly planning, have eyes in the back of your head, yadda, yadda, yadda. It doesn't give you EMOTIONAL experience - it's different when it's your own kid.
I have been both child-free (kid brother baby-sitter) and now I'm a mother. I can tell you that child-free people DO have something to contribute - you're right, because they're sitting outside of the situation and therefore can be the uninvolved voice of reason. But... emotion has a lot to do with child-parent relations and anyone childless or childfree will know nothing about THAT. Just keep that in mind.
@C Meier
"who says everybody has to be PC? I don't think that we all have to censure our speech or change our opinions because somebody MIGHT be offended (or even if you know somebody WILL be offended)."
ROTFLMAO!
I believe the reason why so many people need to be peeled off the ceiling with a spatula on the off-time I use profanity to make a point, the reason why it's SO-O-O-O-O much worse when *I* use it, is precisely because I am definitely NOT politically correct, even when I'm not being potty-mouthed. I call a spade a spade, with or without profanity, imagine that! We women have to be generic, you see (extremely sarcastic font on), otherwise we're being ba-a-a-a-ad girls!
By the way, about the black people comment from wkh... she was being extremely facetious. Don't take it at face value.
@Mike H
"No need to take the name of the Lord's Mother in vain about it, really."
LOL!
Post #83 "The harm seems to come when parents use "baby talk" after the child is no longer a baby.
You got a point there. Problem is, people who use baby talk on a baby usually don't stop once the baby reaches a certain age - which is why I object to baby talk! Bad habit, difficult to break because, for the ones who use it, when's the cut-off point? When the kid's off to school? Seems a bit late.
"Everything else that's been added on to this brou-ha-ha is really side-tracking the LW's actual issue."
The "real issue" here is that women are NOT ALLOWED to not like babies! EEEEEEEEEK, possessed-by-the-devil WBitch-deserving-to-be-burned-at-the-stake alert!
Post #101
THANK you - my sentiment exactly.
@Penny
Penny for your thoughts - and that's really all that they're worth!
@nonegiven
I was always allergic to his kootchie-poo-poo baby-talk. I always talked to my daughter like she was an pint-sized adult already - goes with what my Native mother passed on to me. And you know what? I had proof, time and again that, even when they don't talk, they understand perfectly well, very early on.
Case in point: She was 6 months old. She had a HUGE rash on her boum-boum because she was teething - molars. When I took her to the ped, he explained that with molars, it was different than with front and side teeth, and that babies started producing this whatever stuff in their urine that was wildlly irritating to their sensitive skin. He prescribed some stuff I had to spoon-feed her to stop the said production.
She was standing in her crib as I was about to feed her the first instalment. I taste one drop first, almost choke on the putrid taste, cough-cough, eeewww. I look at her and tell her: "Okay. I have to give you this. I'll not lie to you, it's (choke) HORRIBLE. But (ligh one-finger pat on the boum-boum), it'll help THERE." Present spoon. Kiddo looks at it with distaste. Then sighs hugely and resignedly opens mouth. Mother feeds revolting crap. Kiddo goes, shake head, blpblpblpblpblp, cough, big sigh.... and smile. They DO understand.
She was into subject-verb-complement sentences at 20 months, by the way.
@Westender
My daughter never wanted kids, but she is a VERY good "mother" to her two cats, as well as to a number of starving, freezing strays she feeds outside her home (she has a cat/doghouse just outside her doorway so they have a shelter against the wind factor), as well as an EXCELLENT godmother to my lovely, wonderful Piper.
"Where would Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and The Big Bopper be now if they hadn't died so young on this day in 1959."
In the same place Elvis Presley, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and Kurt Kobain would be. None of them passed on this day, but they're still gone... sob.
@Dawn
You're right, you know.
@Joyce
1. Not liking babies and being racist is NOT the same thing.
2. Just because, in YOUR world, people who don't like babies don't exist, doesn't make the baby "un-likers" freaks of nature. We ALL have things we've never seen, it doesn't mean they don't exist or that they're abnormal.
@Lisa
"BTW -- does she do this to the other older siblings, as well, or just you?"
Good point. None of us brought that up.
"I STILL don't understand those people who were trying so lustily to get me to hold their baby and talk me into motherhood."
Ah-ha, that is the point - They WERE trying to talk you into motherhood, as in, "Se-e-e-e-e what you're missing here? Don't you think you would lo-o-o-o-ove to have one of your own?" The tactics can get v-e-r-y sneaky.
P.S.: You're allowed to change your mind. Like my late aunt Theresa used to say, the only people who never change their mind are in a padded cell with a nicely festooned jacket. But, as you and I both know, it should be on our own volition. Because. We. Choose. To. Like all free people (allegedly) living in the land of the brave and (supposedly) availing ourselves to the pursuit of happiness - gee, it was never stated in the Constitution that SOME people could define for all others what constitutes happiness and the pursuit thereof...
"I don't launch into this whole, "I know better than you" bit and try to tell them, "I was like you once, you'll change your mind." Because you know what? I don't care if they ever change their mind! Just because all of us started out as smelly, leaky, crying babies doesn't mean we all of us have to like them or want to have them!"
I love you!
@Bean
I don't think there is disdain towards children in America. I think there is displaced, dysfunctionnal, actually selfish kind of caring about children in America. Lemme explain:
1. People claim to care about their kids, and yet buy their love with money and toys. It doesn't work that way in real life.
2. People claim to care about their kids, and yet use the almighty TV and computer and babysitters. It doesn't work that way in real life.
3. In order to make up for # 1 and #2, they side with their kids no matter how badly they behaved. This accomplishes two things:
a) it makes a pretense of caring for their kids;
b) it conveniently allows them to avoid disciplining their kids, which would be in contradiction with #1 and #2.
4. People claim to care about their kids, and yet they don't wanna give up their cache of (constitutionally approved) weapons and Rambo flicks.
5. They claim to care about their kids, and yet nothing of CONSEQUENCE is being done in the majority of schools to curb school-yard bullying - never mind extreme bullying.
6. They wring their hands and wail in despair like ancient Greek mourners whenever there is a grade/high school shooting, never mind that it may have been been precipitated by unaddressed, extreme bullying - therefore proving what a sad, tragic joke #4 & 5 are.
Allow me a few moments' respite while I go puke in the toilet bowl where this all belongs. Yrrrrrch.
@Sheila Post #102
Hee hee hee - I love you too!
@Maggie
Post #105: Hey - do keep in mind: just because some people don't like and/or feel comfortable with interracting with babies does NOT mean they don't accept you AND the baby. I understand the insecurity you felt back then - hope you got over it by now! ;-)
@PS
"I think offering to get what the siblings need is a good alternative - and if Mom balks or squawks at that idea, insisting on the money instead, then the LW will have her confirmation that yes, Mom is indeed selfish and leeching off her"
Good point and, again, one that no one made before.
P.S.: "Bank of Daughter"... well... we're not sure of that. As far as I know, we have no clear indication whether the LW is male or female. Could be "Bank of son". ;-)
@Chris
Ah, Chris, Chris, Chris... ROTFLMAO! (And now I need to Windex my monitor)
@Back to Zoe
Hey - I think I beat you here in terms of length - in fact, I think I scored an all-time record. Do I get a Gold? Spoken as a figure skating maniac, hee hee hee hee hee hee hee he hee hee hee hee

Sorry - this is what it was supposed to look like -

Re: Zoe
"Why is it that so many parents get SO offended by the mere mention that someone might not like kids in general?"
Because the idea that a woman doesn't like babies is anathema and heretical to her first and foremost purpose in life - making babies. (sarcastic font on)

In spite of all the advances in women's condition and all that, that way of thinking is still prevalent: producing and nurturing a family is a woman's purpose first and foremost, everything else comes AFTER. The saddest part is that a lot of people who think like that refuse to see (never mind admit) that they do, and therefore nothing is changing any time soon. And it's not just parents. It's people in general - both men and women. I've seen it too many times to count.

"Wow, longest post ever. Sorry all"
All forgiven, nothing to forgive in fact, as I hope the other long-post producers BTL will agree... ;-D

"I would rather someone have been grossed out by me as a baby, than look down on me as an adult because of the colour of my skin, or my sexual orientation, or my gender."
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP, standing ovation!

"Oops. "I already ATE so much today". Way to ruin the punch line, Zoe."
Don't worry about that. We had gotten it already.

Post #81
LOL!

@nanchan
"My issue is not with the fact that the LW doesn't want to hold babies."
Given that you called her a toxic personality, you sure had me fooled - all of us, in fact.

"it's in her disgust for them."
Yeah, so? She's allowed to feel disgusted at the fact that they ARE "messy, leaky, smelly and noisy, as well as demanding and expensive". People who love babies will overlook all of that. People who don't will not, and she's one of them. This is supposed to be the land of brave, where people live in freedom and in the pursuit of happiness. Her idea of such does not including holding an adorable little leaky tub and, you know what? She is allowed the liberty.

Post #109
"(gosh I hope I got that right so the Grammar Nazis don't decend me on top of all the other petty juveniles)"
Now you're being a b*tch. Sorry - but you ARE.

@Janie
"people who simply don't get it."
Trust me, they get it. Oh, they really do. They just don't give a damn how you feel. As far as they're concerned, you should just open up your legs and perform your purpose as a baby machine and shut up - who cares how you "feel". I've seen a lot of that.

My daughter has NEVER wanted children. It's not that she "hates" babies. She absolutely loves them - on a very, very occasional basis. The gist of it is - she doesn't have the patience to deal with an adorable screamy, little leaky tub, doesn't have what it takes to sign up on a life-long contract, AND, she is wise and mature enough to know it (I absolutely love my daughter). You can rest assured that she wouldn't know the first thing about holding a newborn safely, nor would she know one puking end to another leaking other.

And me, who never liked playing with dolls and don't particularly like babies (they ARE smelly, aren't they? Either coyingly, milky-sweet or peeingdly/crappy stinky), was yet a very good mother (AND big sister) and am still very protective of my sweet baby... ANYONE who would give her flak about her childlessness in front of me would get the VERY rought edge of my very potty mouth.

You know what? I think a lot of women, deep down inside a place where they don't want to look... while they wouldn't want the children they had not to exist, they yet regret that they were the ones to bring them into the world and ESPECIALLY the price they had to pay. They regret not having had the werewithall to go against the grain and refuse to have children, because they didn't want to be subjected to what they themselves are subjecting childless women to. Their hostility towards childless women is really misplaced anger at themselves, for not having had the courage to take that route themselves.

"So yeah, we may not have kids, but sometimes we can be the voice of reason."
You know the personal expression I always use, "Between principle and practice, anything can happen"? Well, there is no area where it's not applicable more than child-rearing. I do remember the ideas I had BEFORE I was a mother... and what happened to *some* of them in practice. Not all - but many... many of them.

And you know what? I was 13 when the first of my father's second crop of children with my stepmother were born. I was the perfect, built-in baby-sitter. One thing I learned over many years - taking care of your baby brother gives you PRACTICAL experience - how to hold the head of an infant, get him to burp, how to change diapers and put the pin in without stabbing him, bottle and spoon feed, sleep lightly, be telepathic on what wicked deed he's possibly planning, have eyes in the back of your head, yadda, yadda, yadda. It doesn't give you EMOTIONAL experience - it's different when it's your own kid.

I have been both child-free (kid brother baby-sitter) and now I'm a mother. I can tell you that child-free people DO have something to contribute - you're right, because they're sitting outside of the situation and therefore can be the uninvolved voice of reason. But... emotion has a lot to do with child-parent relations and anyone childless or childfree will know nothing about THAT. Just keep that in mind.

@C Meier
"who says everybody has to be PC? I don't think that we all have to censure our speech or change our opinions because somebody MIGHT be offended (or even if you know somebody WILL be offended)."
ROTFLMAO!
I believe the reason why so many people need to be peeled off the ceiling with a spatula on the off-time I use profanity to make a point, the reason why it's SO-O-O-O-O much worse when *I* use it, is precisely because I am definitely NOT politically correct, even when I'm not being potty-mouthed. I call a spade a spade, with or without profanity, imagine that! We women have to be generic, you see (extremely sarcastic font on), otherwise we're being ba-a-a-a-ad girls!

By the way, about the black people comment from wkh... she was being extremely facetious. Don't take it at face value.

@Mike H
"No need to take the name of the Lord's Mother in vain about it, really."
LOL!

Post #83 "The harm seems to come when parents use "baby talk" after the child is no longer a baby.
You got a point there. Problem is, people who use baby talk on a baby usually don't stop once the baby reaches a certain age - which is why I object to baby talk! Bad habit, difficult to break because, for the ones who use it, when's the cut-off point? When the kid's off to school? Seems a bit late.

"Everything else that's been added on to this brou-ha-ha is really side-tracking the LW's actual issue."
The "real issue" here is that women are NOT ALLOWED to not like babies! EEEEEEEEEK, possessed-by-the-devil WBitch-deserving-to-be-burned-at-the-stake alert!

Post #101
THANK you - my sentiment exactly.

@Penny
Penny for your thoughts - and that's really all that they're worth!

@nonegiven
I was always allergic to his kootchie-poo-poo baby-talk. I always talked to my daughter like she was an pint-sized adult already - goes with what my Native mother passed on to me. And you know what? I had proof, time and again that, even when they don't talk, they understand perfectly well, very early on.

Case in point: She was 6 months old. She had a HUGE rash on her boum-boum because she was teething - molars. When I took her to the ped, he explained that with molars, it was different than with front and side teeth, and that babies started producing this whatever stuff in their urine that was wildlly irritating to their sensitive skin. He prescribed some stuff I had to spoon-feed her to stop the said production.

She was standing in her crib as I was about to feed her the first instalment. I taste one drop first, almost choke on the putrid taste, cough-cough, eeewww. I look at her and tell her: "Okay. I have to give you this. I'll not lie to you, it's (choke) HORRIBLE. But (ligh one-finger pat on the boum-boum), it'll help THERE." Present spoon. Kiddo looks at it with distaste. Then sighs hugely and resignedly opens mouth. Mother feeds revolting crap. Kiddo goes, shake head, blpblpblpblpblp, cough, big sigh.... and smile. They DO understand.

She was into subject-verb-complement sentences at 20 months, by the way.

@Westender
My daughter never wanted kids, but she is a VERY good "mother" to her two cats, as well as to a number of starving, freezing strays she feeds outside her home (she has a cat/doghouse just outside her doorway so they have a shelter against the wind factor), as well as an EXCELLENT godmother to my lovely, wonderful Piper.

"Where would Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and The Big Bopper be now if they hadn't died so young on this day in 1959."
In the same place Elvis Presley, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and Kurt Kobain would be. None of them passed on this day, but they're still gone... sob.

@Dawn
You're right, you know.

@Joyce
1. Not liking babies and being racist is NOT the same thing.
2. Just because, in YOUR world, people who don't like babies don't exist, doesn't make the baby "un-likers" freaks of nature. We ALL have things we've never seen, it doesn't mean they don't exist or that they're abnormal.

@Lisa
"BTW -- does she do this to the other older siblings, as well, or just you?"
Good point. None of us brought that up.

"I STILL don't understand those people who were trying so lustily to get me to hold their baby and talk me into motherhood."
Ah-ha, that is the point - They WERE trying to talk you into motherhood, as in, "Se-e-e-e-e what you're missing here? Don't you think you would lo-o-o-o-ove to have one of your own?" The tactics can get v-e-r-y sneaky.

P.S.: You're allowed to change your mind. Like my late aunt Theresa used to say, the only people who never change their mind are in a padded cell with a nicely festooned jacket. But, as you and I both know, it should be on our own volition. Because. We. Choose. To. Like all free people (allegedly) living in the land of the brave and (supposedly) availing ourselves to the pursuit of happiness - gee, it was never stated in the Constitution that SOME people could define for all others what constitutes happiness and the pursuit thereof...

"I don't launch into this whole, "I know better than you" bit and try to tell them, "I was like you once, you'll change your mind." Because you know what? I don't care if they ever change their mind! Just because all of us started out as smelly, leaky, crying babies doesn't mean we all of us have to like them or want to have them!"
I love you!

@Bean
I don't think there is disdain towards children in America. I think there is displaced, dysfunctionnal, actually selfish kind of caring about children in America. Lemme explain:

1. People claim to care about their kids, and yet buy their love with money and toys. It doesn't work that way in real life.
2. People claim to care about their kids, and yet use the almighty TV and computer and babysitters. It doesn't work that way in real life.
3. In order to make up for # 1 and #2, they side with their kids no matter how badly they behaved. This accomplishes two things:
a) it makes a pretense of caring for their kids;
b) it conveniently allows them to avoid disciplining their kids, which would be in contradiction with #1 and #2.
4. People claim to care about their kids, and yet they don't wanna give up their cache of (constitutionally approved) weapons and Rambo flicks.
5. They claim to care about their kids, and yet nothing of CONSEQUENCE is being done in the majority of schools to curb school-yard bullying - never mind extreme bullying.
6. They wring their hands and wail in despair like ancient Greek mourners whenever there is a grade/high school shooting, never mind that it may have been been precipitated by unaddressed, extreme bullying - therefore proving what a sad, tragic joke #4 & 5 are.

Allow me a few moments' respite while I go puke in the toilet bowl where this all belongs. Yrrrrrch.

@Sheila Post #102
Hee hee hee - I love you too!

@Maggie
Post #105: Hey - do keep in mind: just because some people don't like and/or feel comfortable with interracting with babies does NOT mean they don't accept you AND the baby. I understand the insecurity you felt back then - hope you got over it by now! ;-)

@PS
"I think offering to get what the siblings need is a good alternative - and if Mom balks or squawks at that idea, insisting on the money instead, then the LW will have her confirmation that yes, Mom is indeed selfish and leeching off her"
Good point and, again, one that no one made before.

P.S.: "Bank of Daughter"... well... we're not sure of that. As far as I know, we have no clear indication whether the LW is male or female. Could be "Bank of son". ;-)

@Chris
Ah, Chris, Chris, Chris... ROTFLMAO! (And now I need to Windex my monitor)

@Back to Zoe
Hey - I think I beat you here in terms of length - in fact, I think I scored an all-time record. Do I get a Gold? Spoken as a figure skating maniac, hee hee hee hee hee hee hee he hee hee hee hee

In regard to your advice to Not A Mommy: While refusing to hold or touch a baby is OK in most parts of America it is inappropriate in many Hispanic / Latino communities. Refusal to hold the baby is tantamount to cursing it and it's parents, especially if one has already praised the child. If Not A Mommy finds herself in such a situation she'd do well to suck up and hold the kid for a minute, say something lovely ("what lovely eyes" or "oh I think somebody needs a potty break!" are safe) and pass it along to the next person or the parent. After that, the "I'm afraid of dropping him" line becomes reasonable. Also, whatever happened to saying "this is not a topic for discussion" when people pry too far into one's private decisions?

@wkh, you make excellent points. (You do not make them subtly, lol.)

Re: limniade
Completly agree. I really don't undertsand what the big deal is. So she doesn't want to hold somebody else's kid. What's wrong with that. I love kids, especially my nieces and nephews but honestly feel very uncomfortable holding other people's kids. I've personally have never had anyone "shove" a baby into my arms so to those who actually do "shove" their children into the arms of others, especiallly when they didn't offfer, they are being extremly rude and inconsideate. Even if the LW2 loved kids, doesn't mean they are going to love your kids, nor should they feel obliged to. I can't even imagine someone handing me their child if I didn't offer first. There's nothing wrong with not wanting, nor particularly liking kids. People need to get over it.

Lise: I am building a website currently for a customer of mine and told him about you. I said: "First of all, look at how LONG this woman's posts are!" He said to me "Well, I wouldn't read anything that long". I actually took him back through the archives to show him your posts and how long it takes to scroll through them. He thought it was HILARIOUS!

Thanks for helping me prove my business structure to my client. Hope you have a great weekend with your cats!

Really, nanchan? Really? You post this as if you're pleased with yourself? I mean, you've been catty and petty and hypocritical before, but this is a new low, even for you. It's just really sad.

Your obsession with Lise is now seeping into your professional life... you really should take that as a wake-up call, nanchan, you really should.

I feel sorry for you, after this. A post like is pretty much a cry for help.

Re: nanchan ~~ Widdle Nannychanny wikes to make poopy and fwow it at da wall and say, "Ooky, ooky! Ooky what I did! I made a big poopy aw by myself, and den I decowated da wall!"

@nanchan
I thought you no longer read Lise's post...

Re: nanchan
This coming from the Queen of long posts... hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee. The Golden Standard being the maximum length you've ever produced yourself, of COURSE...

Hey gang, have you noticed that every time she's been a b*tch to someone, she finishes with a phoney-baloney "Have a wonderful whatever"?

nanchan, I've been thinking about skipping your posts for a while now. Your post #116 made my decision for me; I'll skip your posts. They used to be interesting; now they are just cranky and crabby.

"Someone once said, "resentment rusts the soul."
-nanchan, today's thread.

The irony continues,folks.

Can nanchan go a day without saying something nasty to another poster or an LW? I doubt it.

@Bitey Fish - you are soooo funny!

@Michael - If I read Nanchan's posts anymore I would be inclined to agree with you. But since I have stopped reading her posts, I have no idea of the irony of which you speak, although I AM certain that you are correct. Did I mention that I no longer read Nanchan's posts? :)