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Cheating Husband Doesn't Need To Change
Dear Annie: I married "Henry" five years ago. It was my second marriage and his third. Henry thinks he is easy to get along with, but I find it difficult to communicate with him. If he doesn't like what you say, you are wrong.
Last year, Henry had an affair, and we went for counseling. He claims I forced him into the affair because I didn't give him enough affection. However, one night he casually mentioned that he also had cheated on his second wife. Even after months of counseling, he didn't change his thinking. He stopped seeing the counselor because he would simply sit there and comment about how I won't change. I've told him it takes two, but Henry thinks he's fine as is.
Henry has some erectile dysfunction issues for which he takes medication, and I continue to see the counselor for my own issues. I do love my husband, but find it difficult to trust him, especially since he still considers the Other Woman a friend. I want to have a normal marriage, but I cannot get him to bend just a little more to be a real participant. Do you have any advice for me? — Just Plain Lonely
Dear Lonely: Even someone you love isn't necessarily marriage material. A man who cannot be faithful, who insists that he is always right and who refuses to take the necessary steps to work on a relationship is not a good bet for a lasting future. Henry has made it clear that he is not going to change. You must decide if you can live with him the way he is or if you are better off without him. We're glad you are still seeing your counselor. This is one of the issues you can discuss.
Dear Annie: My older sister devotes Sundays to father-daughter time. She phones Dad to let him know what the plans are, but my father never passes the word to me, and neither does my sister. According to her, it's "understood" that I'm invited, but I don't feel comfortable inviting myself.
One time when I decided to join them, I went to the restroom, and they left without me. My sister claimed it was "miscommunication" and thought I wasn't planning to come.
We've been to several wine festivals together and have had a great time, so I was surprised when one came up and they went without mentioning it to me. I was hurt and angry. Finding a picture on Facebook of my father, sister and brother-in-law having a great time there was a slap in the face.
My sister thinks it's ridiculous that I insist on an invitation. Other people tell me I'm loads of fun to be around. Am I wrong to want a "hey, let's go," or should I just tag along regardless? — Left-Out Sister
Dear Left Out: You are family. You are allowed to tag along on family outings without an engraved invitation, especially when your sister has already made it clear that you are welcome to do so. Please don't let your sibling issues spoil these special times with your father. If you wish to attend, make your intentions clear, and then be the "loads of fun" gal you are and have a good time.
Dear Annie: "Twin in Texas" said her brother in New York is raising two grandsons. He not only shows extreme favoritism toward one of them, but the unfavored child sleeps in a "windowless storage room."
As a licensed architect, I can tell you it is illegal to use this storage room as a bedroom for two reasons: First, a bedroom needs two means of egress in case of fire. The second reason is that the code requires a window for light and ventilation with specific requirements on the size for each purpose. — W. from Indiana
Dear W.: Our thanks to all the architects and contractors who wrote. We are sure many readers learned something today. We did.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2011 CREATORS.COM
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49 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - Now you know why Henry has been married so many times. I imagine most of the marriages ended because of his difficult personality, not that he was widowed. The Annies' advice was right. He's not willing to change so you either stay with him and endure him this way or leave. It's good that you're seeing a counselor. Hopefully, if you do choose to remarry in the future, you will figure out how to pick someone more suited to compromise.
LW2 - How little information are your sister and father giving you? Are you supposed to show up Sunday morning with a variety of outfits suitable to hiking, skiing, swimming and gardening because you don't know what the event will be or when it will take place? If you call your sister and father ahead of time, will they at least tell you what time to meet and what you will be doing? Why is your sister planning the outings? What if you decided that the following Sunday, you would like to go to a specific event? Are you supposed to communicate this to your sister and father or just show up and say "No. It's not ok to do what you wanted. Instead, we're going to this other event that I want to take dad to"? It does kind of sound like they're avoiding you, unless it's at the same time every Sunday. But they left you in the restroom where? At your dad's house? Or at the event?
LW3 - Poor kid is sleeping in a closet! When I was in college, I had friends in a fraternity where there was a triple bunk bed (hand made with 2 by 4s) in a walk-in closet (no windows or skylights). That's where three pledges slept. It was considered their bedroom. Clearly, a fire violation. I think they did this so that there was extra party and study space elsewhere in the fraternity house.
Comment: #1
Posted by: FAW
Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:33 PM
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LW1-you're married to a jerk. Feel free to join the ranks of all those depressed wives who've spent their whole marriage hearing "you didn't do what I said" or "I told you I don't like that" or "you just won't listen."
Comment: #2
Posted by: Roger
Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:37 PM
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For Lw1 with "Cheating Henry". Da phrase of da day is "Everyone diserves to be where they aRe!" What I mean by this bLunt statement is dat if u trueLy want to be respected then u wiLL be** if u want to be Lied to, then u wiLL be!** peopLe must make a decision of where they want to be in Life & how they want to be treated.. the worLd wiLL not sympathize for the 'ignorant' not that u are because ur wise enough to voice ur concerns** & another things, u don't need a counselor to re-assure u about this! The Annie's need to take a chiLL piLL with aLL of these costLy recommendations to counselors & doctors & give peopLe da chance to use common sense!** counselors are stiLL capable of making bad caLLs in their own Lives u know! They are human!
Comment: #3
Posted by: BiLLyDaKid
Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:12 AM
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LW1, I have lots of friends I "love" but wouldn't want to live with or marry. You don't describe many things that are lovable about your husband, but I'll trust that there are some. But if you can't trust him and he can't change, it may be time to consider ending the marriage. But before taking a step like that, try one more time to communicate with him, but build in some stakes and penalties this time. Tell him gently that you're lonely, and need proof that you can trust him, and that unless he changes in specific ways, your marriage is not long for the world. If he sees he's in danger of losing yet another wife, it may give him a push to actually consider trying harder to change. If not, it may be time to move on and look for a better spouse. The wedding vows are important but they are not sacred and inviolable. Some "marriages" need to end; yours may be one.
LW2, you're dealing with a situation that's partly based in the present, and is partly based in the past. It sounds like your family members have a long engrained habit of focusing on each other, and excluding you at least on some level, and it's grating more and more as the years go by. I know this is painful, and it would be great if we could change patterns of behavior within families. But it's very hard to do so.
My advice would be, enjoy your sister and father's company when you can without trying to change them in any way. if they go some places without you, don't take it personally. Instead focus on changing your own role in the family. They have their patterns and you have yours. It sounds like yours is to wait patiently and longingly for them to figure out what to do, hoping they'll invite you along. Instead of stewing and climbing into your hurt feelings when they go out and have fun, try seeing them separately (as they're doing with each other now and then). Invite your sister out for something fun (just you and her). Invite your father to something different. Be the one who initiates things, not the one who watches to see what other people are doing and waits for an invitation.
Comment: #4
Posted by: sarah morrow
Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:30 AM
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Re LW2: If I were you, I'd forget getting an invitation from sis and contact my dad during the week and ask him what the plans are for father/daughter day. I'd make sure he knows that I plan to attend...then ignore any attempt by the sis to exclude me.
These times with dad are precious...don't let sibling rivalry cheat you out of it.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Bear
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:00 AM
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Henry doesn't love you. He loves himself. Any woman would do for a wife, as long as she cooks his meals and washes his clothes. That's why he doesn't feel the need to change. If you leave he will just find another sucker.
Comment: #6
Posted by: sarah stravinska
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:48 AM
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LW1 – I have to ask you: What was Henry like while you were dating? Did he take into consideration that you had feelings back then? I ask this since you crammed a whole bunch of negative information against your husband in three short paragraphs. According to you in the fourth year of marriage hubby had an affair because you didn't give him enough affection. What was he doing at that time? Did he put any effort into turning you on, or just expected the street to be one way, and when the drive became boring, he took a left turn?
Of course you have a difficult time trusting him, especially since he is still friends with the Other Woman. I would have a trying time showing affection to someone who shows such disregard to my feelings. Henry thinks he's fine as he is; you DON'T. I hope your counselor helps you find your spine, and demand to be treated as you deserve to be, otherwise Henry is going to have to listen to your feelings through your lawyer!
LW2 – If you *know* every Sunday is father-daughter time, get on the phone to both your sister and father and tell them you have time to go and where should you meet them? Since your sister has stated that it's “understood” that you are invited, go with that. It does sound like you are waiting for an invitation, but an open invitation has already been issued. All you need to do is call ahead, and find out where and when. Problem solved!
Comment: #7
Posted by: Jenna
Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:34 AM
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sarah s wrote, "Henry doesn't love you. He loves himself. Any woman would do for a wife, as long as she cooks his meals and washes his clothes. That's why he doesn't feel the need to change. If you leave he will just find another sucker."
Boy, did she hit the nail on the head! She's right. I was married to a Henry. I don't have any proof that he cheated on me but I am 95% sure that he did. But he always told me I was wrong if I didn't like what he liked, disliked what he disliked, didn't believe what he believed, etc. He was abusive and told me I "made" him do what he did to me because I irritated him. I cannot tell you how many times I heard, "You got what you deserved." I went to counseling by myself and he came with me one time where he told me he refused to change becaue I was the one who was wrong. I filed for divorced and have never been happier. He had a new girlfriend within weeks. All he wanted was a female body to take care of his needs and anybody would do and he found her and your Henry will do the same.
Oh, and if you think the woman he had an affair with is still his "friend" you are wrong. I'd bet my bottom dollar they're still sleeping together. I hope you're protecting yourself or you may have another problem on your hands.
LW2 - She says you're invited, but they never tell you what's going on. Sounds to me like she wants her own father/daughter time. I say start your own father-daughter time with your Dad.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Michelle
Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:41 AM
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Re:LW1, kudos to the Annies for pretty much coming as close as they ever do to suggesting that divorce is a good option here. But, yes, it looks like Henry has no intention of changing, doesn't even see the need to change.
It may be that a trial separation is the "wake-up call" he needs to realize he *does* need to change, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were LW1.
LW2: I'd suggest pulling the sister aside and having a heart-to-heart to find out if you really are invited or not. If you are, then just go along for the ride and be your most pleasant self, enjoying the time with them. But I was thinking along the lines of Michelle, too -- why not be the one to plan some of your own events with your father?
One more thing... while it's nice to always be together as a family, if it turns out that your sister DOES want some quality time with your father without you, that's *okay*. It isn't even necessarily a slight on you AT ALL, and you shouldn't take it personally if that is what your sister really wants. You aren't "owed" an invitation to every single moment of time that your sister spends with your father. And again, if that is the case, you can start some traditions of your own with your father.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 AM
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LW2
You should plan things, too. Don't always be the tag-a-long ~ try team work. Elder doesn't mean wiser! In the meantime, point out to your sister that her standing invitation fails on the ad absurdum front. You still need to know what time things begin, how long you'll be away, how much money to bring, what to wear, whether to get your bowling ball out of the pawn shop, etc.
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Comment: #10
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:19 AM
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LW1--"I find it difficult to communicate with him. If he doesn't like what you say, you are wrong." Hmm, there seems to be a lot of those types of people around.. You seem like a well-meaning albeit naive woman so please let me break the situation down for you as gently as possible. Your husband is a liar and a fraud. He is going to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants and with whomever he wants. That is, when he can get it up. Are we clear? The man is on his third marriage; he's a serial cheater. That's what he does. Once his hot and heavy mistress cools down and starts behaving like a wife he gets the itch again. He's using you. Probably for financial stability but possibly to stroke his ego too. Make no mistake, once he finds a new gullible squeeze who puts up with his bullshit he'll leave you high and dry. My advice is to tell 'Harry' that you're on to his little game and that if he really does love you and is truly interested in saving the marriage, he'll put serious effort into counseling. Just be realistic and don't set your expectations too high.
LW2--"According to her, it's "understood" that I'm invited, but I don't feel comfortable inviting myself." Sweetie, it's called a backbone, reach around and see if you can find yours. The Annies are right; you're family and if Sundays are "Father-Daughter" day and your passive aggressive sister fails to inform you of the activities than show up bright and early and assert yourself! Better yet, get the jump on sis and plan the day's activity yourself. You're obviously on FB so communicating your plans should be no problem. My guess is that your sister enjoys slighting you because she's starved for your father's affections and she perceives you as the weak and stupid competition. Unless you can muster the dignity and assertiveness to up the ante and match her moves tit for tat you'll be forever the "victim" and never the victor.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Chris
Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:07 AM
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LW2: nothing screams sibling rivalry like this letter did. the sister taking daddy out has no desire to allow the competition along and has made it clear that the invite is "understood" by her and daddy only. normal situations the information is "shared" to all the parties and not just understood. Things like times, where, when, even how much....etc is discussed...not understood. When they left her while she was in the bathroom they made it loud and clear she was not welcomed. this is a time that maybe she should involke her own daddy/daughter time. Maybe she can suggest to the sister they switch off every other Sunday the alone time with their father. And then once in a while the 3 of them can do something together. but something tells me the sister who is monopolizing dad's time may not like sharing dad. just my opion.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Donna
Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:11 AM
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LW2: Why not back off from your family for a while? I'n my experience, I've found that the harder you pursue a person or a situation, the more they or it will elude you. And I'm not the sort who can "pretend" that something isn't right when it doesn't feel right, so "going along and having fun anyway" just wouldn't work for me. Some people are just too sensitive to put on these kind of acts and if you can't pull it off convincingly, I wouldn't even bother trying.
I do think the sister is trying to sabotage the relationship the LW has with her father, at least on some level, so sometimes, being the one who is "hard to get" is what makes the difference. Invite your father to an event every two or three months and let the whole situation take a back seat in your life. It sounds to me as if it's taking up moe space in your head because of the "hide and seek game" dynamic underlying it. Pull out of the game and then step back in on your own terms.
So let your sister play her games and let your father go along with it. Cultivate your own life, especially since you sound like an adult anyway, and should be expanding your social life beyond your family at this stage in life. It sounds a little like your sister is immature if she's still hanging on to daddy so tightly at this adult stage of her life. I'm wondering why?
Getting caught up in situations like this are almost always hopeless and the feeling that you're on the outside looking in will persist until you do something to change the situation, and the only person you can change is yourself. Pull away, live your own life and invite daddy in when you feel like it. The sister just sounds like a bit of a turd to me, honestly.
Comment: #13
Posted by: et
Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:22 AM
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LW1-
You may want to have a normal marriage, but not with him you won't. He has already proved that he is hopelessly inflexible - whatever happens is always someone else's fault, namely yours.Marriages can survive and affair and do, but not when the straying one is a serial cheater and always blames the other.
He is still "friends" with that woman? How long before this turns into "friends with benefits" if it hasn't already, that is, if it ever stopped. Third marriage, heh? I can tell there'll be a fourth one and a fifth and a sixth - until he stops attracting. I'd be curious to see if he cheated on the first wife as well - probably, and it was all her fault too, I'm sure.
Pack your bags. You cannot trust this man to be faithful, and you cannot fix anything with him because he's always right. And get yourself tested. Leave him and his "friend" to each other. If he marries her, she'll be getting what she deserves.
LW2-
What more do you want, a gold-engraved invitation on a satin cushion delivered by a royal page on one knee?
Usually, it's the older sister who never got over the displacement the new baby brought... Your attitude sounds like a typical case of sibling rivalry to me. Stop this yurunda, just "invite" yourself, since it has been made clear that you were welcome, stop looking for reasons to be pissed off and be the "loads of fun"' you are supposed to be. Because right now, I don't see any fun in your petty complaints.
Perhaps you're only loads of fun when you're the star attraction and you feel your older sister takes the spotlight away from you? Just askin'. Perhaps it's time YOU start including HER in your show, instead of feeling competitive. Either that, or schedule your own Saturdays with Dada, what can I tell you.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:11 AM
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LW1 - I think this is a good time to envoke Ann Lander's old saw, "Are you better off with him or without him"? This guy is what he is and it ain't much. LW needs to figure out how to deal with or move on because this guy isn't going to budge.
LW2 - I think the LW is letting her older sister call the shots, has no intention of ever standing up to her and is just whining. C'mon...you can't call and confirm a time and place and get the details? We are missing piece of the puzzle here. I would like to hear the other two sides to this story.
LW3 - Yeah, thanks. I think most people knew that and that really wasn't the issue.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Rick
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:35 AM
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LW1: There are some men (and women!) out there who find it impossible to be faithful.
I've written about this here before, but I feel there are really only a few reasons people cheat. 1) They are serial cheaters and thrive on the chase 2) they fall in genuine love with one person and begin a new relationship without care for the fallout or 3) it's a cry for help because something is REALLY WRONG with their marriage and the affair is to try to get the spouse's attention.
It's hard sometimes to know if the affair is 3 or 1, because often people who fall into catagory number 1 will use 3 as the excuse. This is what your husband is doing, but all you have to do to know he's 1 is to look at his history. He has been "married" at least twice before you, has admitted he cheated on at least one of those spouses and now is cheating on you. Yet it's all your fault. Dollars to donuts it was his second wife's fault too. When does it become HIS faut?
Get out now and remember this moving forward. Be VERY careful when you are dating and read between the lines. For me, any man who has been married more than one time and is divorced twice will have some 'splaining to do. I was in one relationship where the guy was on his second divorce. Both wives had left him for other men. I felt sorry for him (that was his intention) and we were very close friends before we dated, so I figured, these women have to be nuts. He's just UNLUCKY (red flag! Noone is "unlucky" all the time. Usually there is a reason why things happen). Our relationship went from friendship to serious dating pretty quickly. I started spending time at his house (without my daughter, she stayed with friends, they met briefly ONE time and that was it). One week, when my daughter was at my mom's house out of state, I stayed with him. THEN I figured out why these women all left him.
Without getting into details, when you date someone they go home or you go home, usually within a few hours or a day or so. During the time you are together, you have their attention and everyone is on their best behavior. But when you live together/ get married you start to see why their past relationships didn't work. In the case of the guy in the letter, you now know why his marriages didn't work. He's incapable of fidelity and to most people, that's a deal breaker. what you need to do moving forward is start to read these signs EARLIER (during the dating process). Married and divorced more than once? I listen to whether or not they take ANY responsibility for the divorces. If they don't, I move on. Every divorce has a bit of responsibility on BOTH sides. Noone is perfect. If they talk trash about their exes, I move on. Do I want him to talk about me that way to some chick in a few months?
get out and get checked.
LW2: Ask your dad to do stuff 1:1 with you. If he refuses to do it any other day but Sunday, tell him you'll love to meet him for brunch if he has plans later in the day with Sis, or vice versa. if Sis shows up, it may be that dad feels more comfortable being with her (sorry, no other way to put it) or he wants someone there while he's with you. that's ok. My point? you'll have to initiate it.
Comment: #16
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:35 AM
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@LW2: Did anyone else think the LW reeked of desperation? “Why wasn't I invited??” “I'm fun, people I've asked, tell me so!” “I want to play!” She either needs to 1. get over it and just start participating, or 2. arrange her own special time with her dad.
She also needs to examine her own actions, and figure out how she's treating her sister and Dad. No one, and I mean no one, wants to be around a family member who incessantly brings up feeling left out.
@LW1: Some advice? You have tried every avenue to "fix" your marriage and your husband refuses to even admit the marriage needs work. My advice: move on!
Comment: #17
Posted by: Casey
Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:24 AM
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Rick: great advice on LW2!
Comment: #18
Posted by: Casey
Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:27 AM
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Forgive me if I have no sympathy for LW1 but she has sent a clear message to her husband that she is a doormat that he can treat however he pleases and she will still be there because she "loves" him. This is what I like to call the "martyr complex"; she will put up with him, basically accept him for who he is, and then complain about all he puts her through and everyone will feel bad for her. People are who they are so either live with him as he is or move on without him, but don't ask for advice for stupid questions. Geez, how can I get POS to refrain from behaving like a POS? Answer: you can't; he's a POS.....
Comment: #19
Posted by: Kim
Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:57 AM
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Re: sarah morrow...I'm sure you meant no harm, Sarah, but pleez don't say that people like LW1's husband "can't" change because that's not true. It's not that they can't change, it's that they WON'T CHANGE until they're forced to do so! People like this jerk of a husband need to be told off...flat out...in no uncertain terms...PERIOD. Political correctness be damned; it's time people started speaking up again, like they used to. This *coddling* of these various no-counts has GOT TO STOP, folks!!!!!!!!
Comment: #20
Posted by: Ms Davie
Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:12 AM
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LW1: Your comment "He claims I forced him into the affair" sounds a lot like my ex-wife. She didn't cheat on me (as far as I know) but somehow everything that happened was my fault. Any nasty thing that she did I "forced" her to do. If Henry has that same personality, I would advise you to GET OUT NOW, because it's not going to get better, it's going to get worse. People like that can justify anything... nothing is their fault, it's always the fault of the partner.
Comment: #21
Posted by: dave
Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:33 AM
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Re: Michelle
Re LW#2, I think Michelle has hit it right on the head. Dad and Sis are having a great time WITHOUT the LW. Could be Sis' decision, or Dad's, or both. Maybe one or both of them are hateful, horrible people, and maybe they are just not good at speaking out, and when the LW asks if she's invited they say yes because they have a hard time being forthright and saying "No, we don't really want you".
I myself have a hard time with this--------------I plan lunch with someone, a third party says "May I come along?" and I never know what to say. I end up saying yes and fuming, which is my own fault, I know.
Kind of greedy for Sis to hog EVERY Sunday, but if that's the way Dad and Sis want it to be, LW can't do anything but accept it for what it is.
I myself would try planning something with JUST Dad, some day other than Sunday, and same with Sis, and as much as it hurts, accept that they didn't want me to join them on Sundays enough to specifically tell me the plans and ask me to come.
I know this is family, but I still have a hard time with someone 'inviting' himself when I didn't ask him.
Comment: #22
Posted by: jennylee
Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:09 AM
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I would love it if maybe once a column or so the Annies somehow got in touch with the other party in a letter to get the other side of the story. Imagine if the LW2's sister and father said something like: "Whenever she goes out with us she spends the whole time texting her boyfriend or looking at Facebook on her phone," or "She's always whining and complaining about where we go, when we go, how long we're there, etc. She takes a lot of reassuring and is emotionally draining." Of course maybe LW2's sister is controlling, or possessive of their father, or the father plays favorites...I mean who really knows, right? But what fun it would be to get the other side of the story on so many of these letters.
Comment: #23
Posted by: TJ
Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:12 AM
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LW2.... all the attention seems to be on the sisters here. What about dad?? What kind of parent would allow such an arrangement without ever once saying "hey let's call LW2 because I know how much she likes wine/ craft shows/ steak dinners." Shame, Shame, SHAME on this parent who allows this crap to go on long term. Once in a while is fine, but every single Sunday Dad is monopolized and he does or says nothing about it?
Comment: #24
Posted by: It's me
Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:39 AM
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Chris, I wouldn't invite myself to an event unless it was something like an open house or open house party or some big event where tons of people were going to be present and another body wouldn't be a big deal. It's not about backbone; it's about showing tact and having manners.
I agree with Jennylee. It's rare that someone invites him/herself along to events with me, but the few times it has happened, it's weird because coming out and saying no just seems mean. (Although I have called the person back, on occasion and in private invoked the old "we haven't seen each other in a long time and would like a chance to get caught up with each other.") But quite honestly, most times it's happened, I've been like a deer caught in the headlights, so thrown off byunexpected the self-invite, that I usually agree. Then I feel resentful. It's a hard call.
I still think big sis is playing some sort of game and whatever it is, it's toxic and the younger sis would be better off to distance herself, at least until she gets the situation into a better perspective. Yes, the younger sister could be rude in some way--looking at her latest gadget or talking on her cellphone--but I doubt that that's the case since she seems hurt. And the father and sister leaving while she's in the bathroom? I know that if I had friends who did that to me, under the weird circumstances, I would question whether to continue being friends with them, so I'm not sure that letting the family off the hook so easily is a good idea either.
Big sis is obviously passive-aggressive, but the best thing for foiling people like her is to give her what she wants--alone time with dad. I wouldn't engage, I'd rather disengage. The LW should do the same and see her father on her own terms. Most parents I know are usually thrilled their adult kids want to spend time with them. If the LW is an adult, she should act like one and not feel she has to be the little kid sister, tagging along unwanted. If big sis is creating that atmosphere whether little sis likes it or not, then it's up to little sis to start calling her own shots. She can set her own parameters, her own limits.
Unfotunately, telling the LW to stop whining and/or grow up "sounds" like a good idea on the surface; however, it also, suspiciously, sounds like the battle-cry of the chronically passive-aggressive.
Comment: #25
Posted by: et
Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:54 AM
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LW1 makes me want to say "Amber, is that you?" Did you find out that through his behavior with you that it wasn't all the ex-wife's fault? That he isn't poor husband who had a bad situation with his ex; that HE was the bad situation?
I was here in this position with a husband who told me I was wrong if I disagreed with him, that his affair was my fault, that he didn't need counseling because he was happy the way he was. And perhaps he is...it's like someone else said - he only needs the warm body to keep him company and fix his dinners, fold his laundry, validate his manhood.
LW1 - he will never change, so you have to choose for yourself now; will you choose to live with him exactly the way he is, or will you choose to live without him? It's all you got.
Comment: #26
Posted by: kristen
Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:03 AM
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I think kristen and dave need to get together!
Comment: #27
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:37 AM
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RE: "Understood" and "open" invitations. Some folks here at the ol' BTL are berating LW2 for needing an engraved invitation to join her sister and father for daddy-daughter day, pointing out that the sister has already "made it clear" that LW is invited and that it's just understood. Well, that only works if, for example, they always meet at the same time and place, and it's just understood that this is when and where they meet up every time. If that's the case, then yes, LW2 deserves to be berated for not just showing up, gilded invitation or not.
BUT, it doesn't sound like that's the case here. It sounds like they potentially meet up at different times and places. If that's the case, then the sister saying, "you know you're always invited" but then not telling LW when and where they are meeting is about as passive-aggressive as you can get. If every now and again the sister forgot to tell LW when and where to meet, that would be one thing -- we all of us have brain farts some times. But EVERY week? Methinks the sister wants to have daddy to herself. Nothing necessarily wrong with that -- as others have suggested, LW can set up her own special time with her dad.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:39 AM
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LW 1 - ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER !! He had admitted to cheating on wife # 2 and most likely, wife # 1 and now you. His "friend" is not his friend, she's his playmate. He's been to counseling, couldn't cope with it, so there is NO WAY he's going to change. Granted, you love him, but you're hurting, the trust is gone and you will always wonder what he's up to when he goes out the door. You deserve better than this and I'm sure you don't want to go on for the rest of YOUR life, living in a loveless marriage. Get yourself a good divorce lawyer, get yourself tested and continue counseling.
LW 2 - DON'T BE A FOLLOWER, BE A LEADER !! If older sister has set Sundays aside for "Father/Daughter" time(notice that Daughter is singular, not plural), and you're feeling left out, then give dad a call, plan another day in the week to spend time together, alone, without Sis.
You said that the three of you have been to several wine festivals and had a good time. But now, you're feeling "left out". Now, you weren't "whining", were you. Maybe you were being too vocal or whining and Sis decided not to invite you to other outings.
LW 3 - I see something more to this story than a child sleeping in a storage room. Could this be another, suspected case of sexual child abuse? One child is favored over the other. If no other family members are living in the same household with Grandpa, maybe the sister can pop in to see what's really going on.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Gwen
Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:51 AM
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One of the passages that is frequently read at weddings is 1 Corinthians Chapter 13. Verse seven says: "Love always protects." For years I only saw this as physically protecting my wife and family from lets say, a burglar. I failed to see that having an affair or looking at pornography (I have not had an affair, and I have not looked at pornography since having this epiphany) was and is a disgraceful failure to protect my wife from not only the the lack of trust that would incur, as was the case in this situation, but the hurt and pain that is undoubtedly caused by such behavior. Ladies, I know that we men need to take "personal responsibility" but please see what this guy said to his wife:"didn't give him enough affection". Protection, and I say this as gently as I can, is a two way street. You can help protect your husband from an affair by asking him how frequently he would like to have sex and going for it, but also doing it with passion. Well, I guess I'll just lay it out here, my wife doesn't even take off her t-shirt when we have "fun". I could go on but I am extremely frustrated. My goal is and has been to love her and keep learning to love her better.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Andy
Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:26 PM
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Re: Andy
" 1Cor. 13:7(love" bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things" (New American Standard Bible)
No mention of protect.
And what about you bearing all things (her lack of wanting to take off her tshirt), believe all things (including the marriage vows that you swore to), endure all things (her putting up with your lack of sensitivity? That last post said it all!)
OK, well, if this is the only place you complain it I guess that's not so bad. God bless you, we are all sinners.
Comment: #31
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:01 PM
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@nanchan: I read your comment #27 just as I was picking up the phone - nearly laughed out loud in a client's ear!
Comment: #32
Posted by: kristen
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:24 PM
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@Andy: No, no, no, no! You cannot lay the responsibility for an affair on the wife like you just did. I will agree that each partner has the responsibility of protecting eachother and their marriage from harm, and that there are ways to keep a loving relationship alive.
BUT, whether the cheater is nanchan's #1 or #3 (and this guy is a serial cheater without a doubt) the infidetlity was HIS choice. He could be straight forward with his wife and tell her what he needs, and if he had we'd be reading a different letter. But you cannot say "she didn't love me with enough passion so I was forced to...fill in the blank." That is so damned passive, and infidelity is not a passive activity. It is a very active choice, and well, active in it's activity :)
Comment: #33
Posted by: kristen
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:29 PM
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"oh, and by the way, Henry has ED issues".
----------------------
Whenever I read a letter by someone who subtly throws a jab I have to wonder how much of the letter is real, and how much has been slanted or omitted.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Gerhardt
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:37 PM
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@Andy -- yes, "protection" (or affection, fidelity, and basically EVERY SINGLE THING in a relationship) is a two-way street. Yes, both parties in a relationship need to be responsible for keeping the relationship healthy, and both are at fault (sometimes equally, sometimes not) when a relationship dies. But the only person who is responsible from keeping me from cheating on my husband is me. He cannot "protect" me from cheating on him. He cannot "force" to have an affair. He can, of course, make me unhappy, and in my unhappiness, I might choose to see out another (I wouldn't, but bear with me on this for a moment), but I cannot and will not blame that choice on my husband -- that would be MY choice (and MY mistake). Because, you see, even if he "made me unhappy," the right action on my part is to tell him I'm unhappy and work with him to resolve whatever the problem is, and if it cannot be resolved and is a "deal-breaker", then we part ways -- and THEN if I want to seek out someone else, I can do so without breaking my vows. And, of course, this works both ways. If I was doing something that made my husband unhappy, then the answer isn't for my husband to go out and cheat on me. The answer is to come to me to tell me what he is unhappy about and to see if we can't resolve the problem, and if it cannot be resolved and is a "deal-breaker," then we part ways, and THEN if he wants to find someone else, he can.
This whole bit about the LW not having provided her husband with enough "affection" (one assumes he means sex, but maybe not) does NOT "force" him to cheat, nor does it give him "good reason" to cheat, nor does it give him "the right" to cheat. She has not failed to "protect" him from having an affair.
But you wrote sensitively enough to suggest to me that you know all this. My take: you are extremely sexually frustrated with your wife, and you are fighting against having cheating on her because you still love her and you take your vows seriously. Let me give you kudos for that. But you need to talk with your wife instead of hoping a bunch of strangers at the BTL are going to give you license to cheat on your spouse because she is no longer "protecting" you.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:38 PM
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Re nanchan: actually, sounds like Kristen & my ex's should get together :)
Comment: #36
Posted by: dave
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:46 PM
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Oh, C'mon now you two! Don't you believe in Internet LOVE!
Dave and Kristen! Our very first Dear Annie's love :) (sorry you guys, I'm having a juvenile moment, and one based on the eternal hope that real love can be found in all the strangest places)
:)
Comment: #37
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:56 PM
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@ Et
LW2 isn't inviting herself along. According to her it's "understood" that she's invited. Her primary gripe, it seems is that her sister fails to formerly call and officially invite her. Likewise her father never formerly lets her know the plans either. Instead of being proactive, the LW sulks and simmers in resentment. My gut instinct is that the LW is a royal PIA and her sister and father "forget" to pass along the plans because they find they have more fun without her but neither of them wants to come right out and dis-invite the LW either. The LW goes out of her way to justify how much "fun" she is to be around, which is telling. Seems like there's some underlying back story the LW didn't share in her letter.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Chris
Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:02 PM
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@dave: I'm going to have to say no to your ex, thanks anyway. Already had the pleasure of being told I'm wrong ALL THE TIME. I'm going to let someone else take their turn ;) Now, I think my ex and your ex could be let loose in a room together, with the door locked tight! I'd pay admission for that one!
I can get on board with juvenile humor today - major drama in the office and a lighthearted laugh is most definitely needed!
Comment: #39
Posted by: kristen
Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:58 PM
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@Chris -- I suspect you are right that LW2 is something of a PIA. The whole "other people tell me I am loads of fun to be around," is telling, as you said in post #38 and smacks of desperation, as you said in your earlier post. But again, I don't think this is an issue of the LW wanting a formal invitation. It's all fine and good that it's "understood" that she is invited -- but if they are consistently "forgetting" to let her know what they're doing, then I think what is really "understood" here is that the sister is being totally passive/aggressive with the "of course, you're invited, it's understood, I'm just not ever going to tell you when and where we are so you can't hook up with us, and ditch you while you're in the bathroom." If LW is a PIA, then sister needs to put on her big girl panties and say, "look, this is something special I want to do with just Dad and me -- I'm sure Dad would love for you to make special plans for just the two of you."
Again, if they are always meeting same time/place, then LW needs to get over it and just show up. But it doesn't sound like this is the case. And while LW certainly can (and should) call to ask, "hey, what are we doing this weekend" it sounds like there's a whole lot more going on in this family dynamic -- as you (and others) suggest.
I'm just not prepared to chalk it ALL up to the LW being a PIA. It almost always takes two (or more) to create a dysfunctional family dynamic.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:40 PM
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Re: Ms Davie
Oh, I agree with you 100% and I think I'm pretty good at being blunt and not very PC... much to some people''s chagrin (LOL).
But I don't think it would make a difference in this case. Like I and other posters said - there is no reason for him to change while he can attract another sucker. He doesn't love any woman. He only wants someone to serve his needs.
@Dave
"Any nasty thing that she did I "forced" her to do."
That's typical abusive MO, as in, "I'm a real peace-loving cool kind of guy, but the @$#%?*(& bitch brings out the worst in me". It is NOT a male exclusivity, as you've found out. Women tend to be more manipulative than physically violent, but abuse is abuse, whether it be verbal, emotional or physical. Good for you that you got out!
@TJ
I keep thinking that.
@Lisa
Good posts.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:31 PM
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I am in the understand that the older sister lives away from the father's home while the younger lives at the same home? Or why would someone be left if the other heads off to the bathroom. Saying restroom makes it sound like they were someplace already and she got dumped.
Let little sister pick another day, another activity if she is bent on feeling left out all the time EVEN WITH THE GENERAL INVITATION STANDING. Choose places that only YOU and your dad can. Unless you are so inept you can't do the thinking on your own. The creativity of your sister is hers and unless you commend her on the great ideas she has, places she picks, pick your own parade and quit crying on hers.
Do you really want father daughter time or are you jealous that you are not the forefront person.
And maybe you just are not as fun as you think you are. If you don't think this is the issue, ask a friend for some truth talk.
I have a sister who think she is the best thing for everyone, and yet, her maybe well intended ideas are mostly out in left field (this is the one who has the mental issues), wondering why everyone is not 'on her side'.
There are no sides. Adults deciding what to do, when to do it. Mention HEY THE NEXT TIME YOU GO.......SPECIFICALLY NAME IT----------I want to go too. Don't be the whiny one who says I WANTED TO GO TOO when they get back.
Maybe you sister sees things much differently in the father daughter and husband friendship. More than family. But friends at this ADULT stage of their lives. It is not a sandbox thing where you pick up your toys and go home if you don't get to be first, don't get to be whatever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW1: Honey, move on. Get out. When you quit being the dumping ground/punching bag/bedroom toy, you will be much happier.
Old Ann Landers rules of IS IT BETTER WITH OR WITHOUT. Without you won't have to share, rationalize why he is married to you and choses another to slut around with. YOu are not going to have a normal marriage, as you think you want. When a man treats his wife as a piece of property that you set out on Tuesdays for the trash,, and picks up another new shirt at the store, you are not in a marriage. You got the license but the relationship is not worth the paper it is written on.
~!!!!!!!!!!!!
LW3; YEP. YEP. YEP.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:34 PM
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LW2: Why can't YOU devote a day to father-daughter time? Your whole letter is "Other people make plans with dad without me." Why can't YOU make plans with dad? If you are busy, you don't need to do it every Sunday. Start with once day a month. Just start with one day, period. YOU call your dad and make plans. This is what your sister is doing. Dad will think you really love him if you make an effort instead of sitting around waiting for that gold-engraved invitation. And, if they say you are always invited, then why do you not believe it? Go ahead and tag along. Then start making your own plans with dad, and YOU can then invite sis. Geez.
LW3: Yes, if a child is unfavored, and sleeping in a dirty old room, I suspect child abuse. That family should be reported. You can never be too careful these days. People do horrible things to their own family members and young ones.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Salty
Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:55 PM
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@ kristen: yep, I didn't word it very well, that's exactly what I meant: your ex and my ex. You could sell tickets.
Comment: #44
Posted by: dave
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:06 PM
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Re: dave & Kristen
LOL!
Comment: #45
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:16 PM
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@Chris,
I don't get where the LW2 is a PIA.
She's probably saying she's told she's fun to be around because she's genuinely mystified at what feels like exclusionary behaviour.
People exclude others for all sorts of reasons, not all of them obvious. And one reason women will exclude other women--a very very common reason-- is that the other woman might have some sort of advantage: being better looking is the first to come to mind. Little sis might have kids where the older sis had trouble conceiving. Little Sis might have an excellent career, be married to a richer man, live in a nicer house and drive a nicer car.
It could be the LW is only reporting the "I'm fun to be around" part of her tale because she doesn't want to call attention to the more obvious problem of the older sister's jealousy. It's a hard thing to point out about another person without sounding like a bit of a jerk. It could be the LW is someone with a good character and so she's only talking about herself and not putting down her sister. And I'm surprised no one noticed that she's NOT putting down either her sister or her father. She's just commenting on their behavior. She wins points with me in that regard.
The father may be contributing to the problem by acting in a compensatory manner.
Any and all of the above are equally plausible scenarios to the very cynical one you laid out.
Comment: #46
Posted by: et
Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:29 PM
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LW 1 is incredibly stupid. Think of it: she is marrying a guy who has been married multiple times before, has a demonstrated record of cheating and this is SURPRISED by his conduct. Jeepers! And then she unbelievably wants to still hang with him.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Patrick Turner
Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:16 PM
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Re: et
You got a point there. I hadn't though of the "women rivalry" angle, as opposed to the "sibling rivalry" thing. Good point.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:32 PM
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I'm going to go back into my old bag of tricks here with LW1 -- YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM!!! You're not attractive enough for him or desirable enough or whatever.
Chances are, no woman in the world is "good enough" for this guy, sad to say. He'll remarry, chew on his toy for as long as it appeals to him, and then dump her when she becomes unattractive in his eyes. He'll find someone new, and rinse and repeat.
Woman, it's time to give this guy his walking papers. You deserve better.
Comment: #49
Posted by: Bobaloo
Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:35 AM
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