Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - no offense, but you strike me as a bit oversensitive & maybe a bit of a drama queen. You do mention that no one else even notices that your sister says mean things to you, and that makes me wonder how bad/frequent/whatever these mean things really are. Annie's advice is spot on. You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the consequences of your decision. If you're asking what you should do, I vote for going to the wedding. You'll get to see your extended family whom you appear to care about, & the amount of time a bride can spend with any one guest is pretty limited so you can avoid her pretty easily. However, if you go, be a good guest. Don't bad mouth the bride or your parents, and don't try to enlist others in your feud with them or get them to take sides. You might also think about your own question, why does your sister want you to go to the wedding?

LW2 - your boyfriend should tell his roomie that he will take care of paying the bills since he is around and the roommate isn't. Then your boyfriend can collect the money from everyone and make sure bills are paid on time.

lw1- I wish I knew how old these sisters are. If they are both in the age range of about 18 to 27, then I think the lw should consider the fact her sister may mature in a few years into a person who does not behave this way towards her, especially if the snide sister is the younger one. I had an older snide sister who was a complete bully growing up. She would even physically beat me up and my parents never did a whole lot about it beyond yelling at her before they finally threw their hands in the air and left it all for us to work out ourselves. My sister got worse after marrying her husband at the young age of nineteen. I attended the wedding, then practically fell off the face of the planet in regards to her while only remaining to see her at family holidays and gatherings. My sister is now newly divorced at thirty. In these past six months she has calmed down significantly, and while she is still stubborn and a bit snippy at times, she no longer calls me names and such. Our relationship is no where near the ideal loving sisterly relationship some have, but we are on friendly terms and it is tolerable. I am glad I left the doors open for her cause in the end it seems to have worked out nicely.

Basically what I am saying is... you do not have to go out of your way to speak to her or spend time with her, but do not shun her to such a large degree. Attend the wedding and be pleasant. Chances are the bride will be too busy with her own thing to even speak to you beyond a few words. You can decline being in the wedding party if she asks and give some reason like financial difficulties or being too busy. It would be nice if you could speak to her about her unpleasant behavior, cause chances are she is oblivious to it. I know my sister was completely oblivious. Bullies are often unaware of just how damaging their behavior is cause they are self-absorbed. She may not change, but the air will be cleared. Then just keep the door open, especially if she is young, cause she just may grow up one day. Limit your visits with her to what you can handle... you can even keep it to holidays like I did. I truly only saw her twice a year and the times I spoke to her on the phone during the year I can count on one hand. I also did this for the sake of my parents, but it turns out I am the one who truly benefited from this in the end.

I am also aware it may have nothing to do with her sister simply needing time to mature. There are plenty of people who are toxic and need to be cut out of a person's life. I am only saying this in case the sister is young and just needs time to grow up. It is always important to consider... some people just have a cruel heart. It is in their nature.

LW1-
It would appear that your sister has never outgrown sibling rivalry and that it has evolved into a full-blown war.

You know what? Go to the wedding. If she's a bitch to you, then it'll be a perfect case in point as to why you didn't want to attend.

P.S.: Oh, and Annies, PLEASE? Can you, ONCE IN YOUR LIFETIME, leave off with the mamby-pamby, nicey-nice-nice-nice, naive-to-the-point-of-pathology, totally useless yurunda? Bullies know exactly how much what they say and do hurts. That's why they do it.

@kai archie
The fact that the family "doesn't notice" can be because of several reasons:

1. They rarely see the two together.
2. Sister Dearest behaves when there are witnesses.
3. They are so used to it it has become something that's part of the background.
4. They prefer pretending to ignore it because it suits them for a variety of reasons.

Among others. I'm sure there can be others.

@Maria
It would appear that your sister kept nursing the jealous rage she felt while looking at you at your mother's breast long after you grew up... I'm glad she's finally starting to come around.

But I don't agree that "bullies are often unaware of just how damaging their behavior is cause they are self-absorbed". Immature, entitled, snarky little b!tches can be oblivious to the hurt they cause. Not bullies. Bullies know exactly what they're doing.

LW2-
And why can't Scott officially move out? This seems to me a set-up that's immensely complicated for nothing, and a huge fight-over-money waiting to happen.

Sometimes I think these parents with children who hate one another clearly are not asshole-ish enough. Seriously when is the last time you heard of kids growing up with evil or at least strict parents who hated their siblings? NEVER because sibs had to bond together to survive or have any fun!!

When my kids have been shizzy to one another I have threatened to backhand them into Ontario (note, I have never once laid an actual hand on my children. That I would threaten to do so for this offense let them know mama was SERIOUS).

I doubt LW1 is drama queen. My guess is sis is more proficient at "speaking bitch." You know..."she looks great in that considering her figure!"

Re LW1- Honestly she seems selfish. A wedding is an occasion to celebrate. You don't have to like your sister to be happy for her. Plus its fun. You can go, give her some congrats then avoid her the rest of the evening by having a good time and talking with other family members. Get over yourself, this occassion is about her and her guy.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but thats how I feel

LW1 - Yes, you have stand up for yourself, but is this really the time and place? A wedding is a family occasion. Unless it's a very small event, you will probably not have to talk to your sister. IMO, you should go and give her a card saying "congratulations". If you cannot bring yourself to go, then you will have to face the consequences. DON'T "tell them" if they ask why you didn't go (I know you are just dying for an opportunity to tell them what you just told the Annies). Just say "due to our past history, I've decided it would be best for me not to be there. I wish her all the best". It's honest, and although she may say nasty things about you, you will come out seeming mature.

LW2 - I disagree that it is unfair that Scott should pay his share. How is it fair that the other two roommates take on more bills because Scott's decided to spend so much time with his girlfriend (I doubt he's paying her rent, after all). There are reasonable, respectful and legal ways that Scott can terminate the agreement. That said, Scott may not WANT to move out. I see nothing to indicate that he does.

LW2, why is moving out "not an option"? Is it REALLY impossible? If you want to stay there you will always be at risk of having services turned off, unless you get the accounts in YOUR name and coordinate the payments yourself, or at least talk to Scott about finding a better way for you to make the payment. And no, you should obviously not be paying the late fee. However, it would be nice to offer a small token ($20 or whatever you can afford to contribute) to help Scott out - this will grease the wheels for changing the payment structure of your bills and rent.)

Re: Lise Brouillette

Regarding LW1:

There is another possibility, it may all be in the writers head. She gave no examples of any kind of behavior, and it seems that the entire family hasn't "noticed" these slights or snide remarks.....Even if the sister did "behave", we're talking about years if not decades here, you can't hide or act that long with family for no one to notice. If they think its just "background noise" and they have gotten used to it, it would be mean they know, and just accept it, but they wouldn't be oblivious, if they are ignoring it, its the same.

The writer here might be one of those people, who sees everything as a slight, from having a different opinion, to simply smiling, without any examples and apparently anyone who agrees with her or would agree with her (she even notes that the rest of the family, again people who have known them both for years if not decades) may not believe her, something isn't adding up here.

This almost sounds like paranoia run rampant.....Maybe it is a good idea for her not to go to the wedding.

LW2: I am "assuming" from the letter that the LW and Beau are paying 2/3 of the utilities (and possibly rent) and Scott pays 1/3. BUT, if the rent is split half and half between Scott and Beau, then maybe Scott is resentful of the fact that the LW and Beau are now using 2/3 of the utilities and he is still paying half. However, that is no excuse for not paying the bills on time when the LW and Beau have paid what was agreed upon. If it's still half and half, it should be restructured. If not, the LW and Beau should offer to take over the bill paying themselves and collect Scott's 1/3 from him instead of the other way around.

And YES, YES, YES - you should ALWAYS get a receipt from anyone you pay in cash, whether it's a stranger, friend, or relative.

I am all for tape recorders. Play it back to the snarky sister so she can't deny her remarks. Tell her how those remarks hurt and record her response to that. Listen to it when you are alone to see if you might be too sensitive,
Play it to your parents when they poo-poo your accusations.

LW1 - I think Lise totally hit the nail on the head.

It's very likely the family members don't notice because Bully Sister behaves in front of them or because they're afraid of her, too, so they stand by her side. The LW said their parents are spineless against her so why not the rest of the family?

I agree that you should go to the wedding but just avoid her as much as you can. Congratulate her in the receiving line but then spend the rest of the time talking to family, friends, etc. Then I wouldn't have much to do with her after that.

And like Lise said, I wish the Annie's would realize that bullies know exactly what they're doing when they treat people the way they do. The LW talking to her sister will do nothing. The sister will likely deny that she's been a bully. Or she'll turn it around and run crying to the family to make the LW look bad.

LW2 - Perhaps you should suggest to Scott that he officially go and live with his girlfriend. If he won't, then I think you and your BF should pay the bills and then get reimbursed by Scott.

LW2: It's ridiculous to pay 2/3 of the late charges when you did nothing wrong, but personally, i'd actually just pay it (this one time) since you've got it pretty good -- paying only 2/3 of the rent etc. for pretty much your own apartment. I'd want to keep a patsy like Scott happy - don't want to lose the money train (which is actually him) over a minor matter. But yes, start paying the bills directly, unless all bills are in Scott's name, then simply explain that if you pay future bills on time, then you will not pay him any further late charges.

LW1--"If I boycott the wedding, a huge number of people connected to my family will look at me as the worst kind of person." Really?!? Honestly if that statement is true, then others in your family besides your sister are hateful and competitive. It's a wedding; it's not the coronation of the King of England! If you don't get along with your sister and your interactions are combative and spiteful then do yourselves both a favor and stay home. If you truly don't care what the relatives think then you won't care what "they believe about you" if you don't attend. Reiterate to your parents and sister that you're not attending the wedding because of your contentious relationship with your sister and that your wedding gift to her is that everyone have a great time. If anyone else in the family tries to make you feel guilty, you don't need to be vindictive and go into gory details about the minutia of your sister's hatefulness, simply say "it's a personal matter that I do not wish to discuss." End of story.

LW2--"Scott splits the bills with us while unofficially living with his girlfriend." The Annie's are right. If 'Scott' is at his girlfriends and you and your boyfriend "pretty much have the place to yourselves" then the two of you should be paying a full third (if not more since you claim Scott is rarely around) of the rent and utilities. It is unwise under any circumstances to start a war with a roommate. Be the bigger person and pay the past due bill, then call a house meeting during which a more fair and equitable devision of expenses (and household chores) is devised and agreed upon by all parties. Personally I would recommend that Scott move in with his girlfriend since he practically lives with her already and you move in with 'Beau'. Problem solved.

My mother and mother-in-law shared (FREE) babysitting responsibility for our two children and it was a win-win situation for everyone. I provided all the diapers, formula, carseats, cribs, etc. and dropped off the children at their homes so they could still do all their houseshold chores. My children adored their grandparents, I never had to miss work if they had a cold or fever because gandma took extra special care of them. We could not have done it without them and since they each shared reponsibility, they still had the freedom to go shopping, visit friends, and make doctor's appointments on their days "off."

Wow, the Annies seem to have had too much eggnog. They should have advised LW1 to consider having a pyschiatric assessment of herself. She sounds paranoid, vengeful and over-sensitive to the max, and no, it's not because Sis puts on her best behaviour in front of others, because LW said the others "don't notice" how Sis terribly treats her, which means she does do these so-called offenses in front of others...just no one else sees it as offensive except the LW. LW sounds just like my SIL, who thrives on self-pity, drama, and taking offense at words and actions that are trivial or even completely imagined.

@Yoshi mama, Mookster & Jane

I can't believe you all take for granted that the LW is making it up. Obviously, none of you were ever the target of undeserved hatred, and if you were, shame on you, you ought to know better. And you all wonder why so many family members are in denial? Just look at the three of you - case in point.

And for Jane to suggest that she needs a psychiatric assessment... speaking of vengeful. Gee, we all know whose side YOU'RE on, Jane! And a merry Christmas to you too.

That there be no examples means nothing, BTW - they may have been edited out, or she may have decided it was TMI, since there are so many she didn't know what to choose, or she may have thought she didn't need to and wanted to keep the letter short and to the point, never dreaming she'd be called a liar - among other things.

In addition to Steve C's post, put the agreement in writing. Verbal agreements are hard to prove.

I too refused to go to my sister's wedding, after a lifetime of bullying. My parents hit the roof and told me I had to go. So I did. My sister, inflated with all the attention, insulted me in front of everyone. Unfortunately for her, it would be the last time. 30 years of anger and pent-up emotions exploded, and I completely ruined her wedding. I have to say, revenge is sweet. Nobody questioned me why it happened - they had ignored my complaints about her for years. Your sister might be picking on you because putting people down elevates her self-esteem. She's stuck in a role in how she treats you, and until something fundamentally changes (occurs), she won't change her behavior, and your own self-esteem will continue to be beaten down, while your parents stand idly. My sister and I have been estranged for 17 years. My only regret? I didn't do this much earlier. I used to be consumed with so much anger, and regret for not being able to stand up to her. That's all gone. Sometimes the only thing you have in common with family members is DNA. Don't be her victim anymore - stand your ground, and get on with your life without her negative reinforcements.

Re: Niamiah
Good for you, and I'm glad you did what you had to do to cut off a toxic family member from your life.

Now I hope Jane is not gonna tell you you need psychiatric assesssment - sheesh.

LW1 - Go the wedding and be gracious and regal. Your sister will stand out in contrast and you will look the better. Or, she's really not all that bad and you're kind of dramatic. Either way, go and be polite.


LW2 - Um.....yeah. You and BF pay the bills and collect from Scott. This is not rocket science here. And what the hell with Annies saying Scott should pay less because he's not there much. That's his choice. Three people live there so three way split.


LW3 - Please. No one foreced anyone to get pregnant and move. Maybe Grandma is a manipulative old bat but the original LW made her own decisions then and she can make different ones now.

LW1: Call a house meeting. Sit Scott down and explain that while accidents happen, you and Beau can't afford to continually pay late fees. Tell him that you understand that it can be difficult keeping up with two households and that his attention is clearly elsewhere. Honestly, if the bills are that frequently late, Scott may be relieved to have you or Beau suggest that you or Beau take over paying the bills.

As for the rent, Scott should continue to pay 1/3rd of the rent, considering that his stuff is there 24/7. For utilities, get a calendar and put it in a prominent place (a place that Scott agrees to) and a packet of little star stickers. For every night Scott stays, put a sticker on the calendar. Prorate his share of the utilities based on how many nights he stays, not to exceed one third of the bill. For example, in a thirty day billing month, if Scott stays three nights, he pays ten percent of the utilities. If Scott stays 15 nights (50% of the time), he pays a third.

Re: Lise Brouillette

I really thought you knew me better then that Lise and am disapointed and hurt that you think I don't know how it feels to be bullied. However I know what a mistake it is to let that interfere with something as beautiful as a wedding because I didn't attend my own older sisters wedding for simular reasons. I've mentioned many times over the past few years about the abuse I endured from different family members.

I think you've forgotten that I go with my instincts and they're usually spot on. The way this letter is written and my own instincts are screaming that something is wrong with the LW. I'm sorry that You thought I was villianizing her but I wasn't. I never even said she was lieing, I said she was being selfish. Plain and simple.

Why would you prorate Scott for the nights that he doesn't stay at his apartment? He is not living with his girlfriend, he is living with his roommates; he simply spends most of his time at the girlfriend's. Two totally different things. If Scott doesn't want to pay his share (1/3) then he moves out. If Scott wants to retain the freedom of having his own place, then he pays his share. It is his choice, after all, to stay elsewhere. And it's not like the two roommates can move someone else in if they need help paying the rent/bills.
The one question I'm left with is, why on earth does someone need to write in to a columnist to ask if money issues should be addressed. Seems pretty common-sense to me - of course they should. And of course you don't have the person who pays late take care of the bills. Big huge "duh" there. Generally, if you are grown up enough to live with your boyfriend, you should be grown up enough to address adult matters that pop up constantly throughout life. Just saying.
LW1 - Can't tell if you are self-pitying, as has been suggested; or if you are cutting a toxic person out of your life. Regardless, you better be pretty damned sure you are completely done with your sister because missing her wedding is going to be a pretty big breach - just make sure you don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

I would prorate Scott for the nights that he doesn't stay at the apartment because when he's not at the apartment, he's not using the utilities. When Scott adding to the utility burden, the electric and water bill for the month is cheaper for all. Scott may not be living with his girlfriend, but, he's not exactly living with the roommates, either. The LW makes it sound like Scott's stuff is there and Scott occasionally crashes there. Again, I would only prorate the utilities (water, electric, gas, sewage), not the rent (and probably not the cable/ internet).

re LW2 - Shannon said exactly what I was thinking.

re LW1 - I am with Lise and Michelle on this one. I can imagine that the relatives are unaware of the bullying because the sister is crafty enough to disguise such things. I once had a "friend" who I soon realized was an enemy. That person would say all kinds of hurtful things under the guise of a joke. Or worse, once, we were at a party and everyone was having a good time. Then she walked up to me with a smile on her face, put her arm around my shoulder, whispered an insult about how I looked in my dress - which everyone else complimented, and then walked away laughing. Anyone watching would have thought, "aw, isn't that sweet, look how close they are". The insult bothered me so much that I was reserved and self-conscious the rest of the time while this frenemy had a a great time. If the sister behaves in such away, I could understand why LW1 would want to stay away. And I detest the Annie's touchy-feely-Kumbaya advise to tell the sister how much she is hurting the LW. They must have no experience with bullies. Such information just tends to confirm that they accomplished their mission and gives them more ammunition.

Re: Yoshi Mama

No, you weren't with the ones who called her a drama queen, oversensitive (if not outright insane) and suggested it was all in her mind. Please accept my apology for the part of my remonstrance that was too harsh for you.

I wouldn't call her selfish, and I suggested she attend the wedding and give enough rope to the Sister-From-the-Black-Lagoon to hang herself with - as Niamiah's post illlustrated well.

I was never bullied like the LW said she is, but grievously neglected from the moment my mother died. The step aunts and uncles noticed it while I was a juvenile but, now that I'm an adult, they think things have settled and that it's no longer like that. Ha! They don't realise how much I'm being shoved aside still, so I know from personal experience that, just because the LW is the only one who notices, doesn't mean she's making it up. Some of them won't be in a position to see the interaction very often and then, a lot of people are self-centred that way - they only notice it when it's being done to THEM.

@Sharnee
I hope you gave the deep six to that frenemy, along with the one-finger salute? Why do people feel the need to do such things, I'll never really understand.

That poisonous dart she lunged at you was probably because you looked like a million bucks in that dress and she was green with envy.

LW1 - I think Maria's instincts are correct in that the LW and her sister are relatively young, probably in their early-mid 20s, based on the LW stating that this has only gone on for 10 years. So there *could* be some immaturity on both sides... but that is speculation at best.

I've re-read the letter a couple times and I don't see anything in there that indicates the LW is a drama queen or has a twisted perception. The LW didn't write in to prove herself to anyone BTL so I don't see why anyone's insisting she should have given specific examples. In fact I'm pretty sure many of the LWs who consult the Annies don't, or are very general when they do, yet we believe them, so why is it different here?

Lise is right - a sibling (or any other relative for that matter) who's abusive or bullying knows when to go on the attack. They'll either do it with nobody around, or in the presence of people who enable them or minimize/invalidate what's going on. They know which relatives and friends will stick up for the sibling target and which ones will just laugh or say nothing.

Then there are the family members who will acknowledge it's abuse, but think blood is concrete compared to water and that you should just put up with it no matter how bad it is. Or they'll tell you in a patronizing tone, "Ohhhhhh, just let it goooooo...." Last I checked, that doesn't solve the problem!

I don't think the LW is selfish about wanting to stay away from the wedding so much as she's hurting and wanting to protect herself. Under the circumstances, and giving her the benefit of the doubt, I have a hard time blaming her for how she feels, especially if she hasn't had a lot of support in finding ways to buffer herself from her sister's nastiness. At least she recognizes that her parents failed her by not acting when the problem started.

Lecturing her about not coming to the wedding isn't helpful. Having someone hear her out, provide understanding/empathy, and offering to perhaps stand by her and help deflect her sister's crap on the big day if she really does want to go would be better. As Niamiah's story illustrates, some vindictive people are NEVER too busy to humiliate or insult someone they hate, even at a wedding, so we can't assume the event will be a safe zone.

If the LW changes her mind, has a friend who knows the situation, and can go with her, that would be great... especially if the sister only does her BS with no witnesses. She can't lay into the LW if a guest or a date is there with her at all times, and if she tries the guest/date can help the LW cut off the conversation and get out of there fast.

I agree with the Annies that regardless of what she does, she will have to face consequences. As Margo Howard would say, life is choices.

At the same time, if she goes, that's not an obligation to have a conversation with her sister, and it's not an obligation to stay the entire event. She can hang out for an hour or two at the reception, then say oops, sorry, I have another commitment, gotta go (even if the commitment is to stay home and paint her toenails, hey, it's still the truth :-) ).

Ultimately if she still doesn't want to go, I don't think anyone has the right to be her judge and jury. In that respect, I like what Chris has to say, and I think what he suggested is perfect.

LW2 - I'm with Michelle and Lise on this one... why on earth hasn't Scott moved if he's hardly living in the place? If the LW, her boyfriend and Scott are comfortable with that nonetheless, then I agree with the idea of putting everything in writing, and prorating the utilities for when Scott is or isn't there.

LW3 - I think what the Annies said rings true. Every situation is different... but there is a good moral to this and that is any arrangements, paid or not, should be worked out in advance. If something has to change, then everyone needs to be willing to come to the table with no hard feelings.

Adult children need to respect that their parents might love their grandchildren to pieces, but they aren't as young as they used to be and they may have to say no to babysitting the grandkids if it's not working for them. It's not worth the emotional blackmail or game playing on either end if it means the kids have a damaged relationship with Grandma and Grandpa when it was otherwise fine.

Oh and I agree with Lise and sharnee about the Annies and their crap about how "You need to have a nice talk with so and so and tell them just how much their behavior hurts." I will bet the farm that the LW already tried that - most of us who have been targeted by a bully make that mistake early in the game and find out it not only doesn't work, it makes things worse because it's fuel for the fire!

So, please, Annies, if you read the comments BTL *at all* - stop doling out that "advice." It's useless.

PS:

Yes, we've tried to enlighten the Annies many times about their fluffy, mamby pamby advice to mean people. With reasonable people that's usually the way to go, but mean people, you are better off just letting them eat your dust, relative or not. I really believe the Annies have never had such ones to deal with their whole lives, the way they talk. I think Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm would even know better.

I have not experienced the blood is thicker than water bit, so it's like foreign territory to me. And I think I'm glad of that.

Sharnee:

How's your little boy doing on the fish oil?

Re: jar8818 ~~ Doing on the WHAT??? <:-0)))>-<

Let me preface by saying I rarely read comments because they are frequently not so much comments as a few people thinking THEY are the advice columnist. I'm not sure why I scrolled down today, but I have to counter a few things people have assumed.
LW1's sister may not be a bully so much as she could be mentally ill. I'm married to a classic NARCISSIST (If you are not familiar with Narcissistic Personality Disorder PLEASE take a moment to Google it - you will be shocked.) It's not someone who likes to admire themselves in a mirror, but rather someone who internalizes everything in a way "normal" people cannot comprehend. If this IS the situation, LW1's life has been a living hell because 1) Sis MUST always be right 2) LW must always be wrong 3) No one else EVER sees sis's behavior 4) People around sis might even think she is the sweetest, most generous person who is incapable of being cruel to anyone, let alone her own sibling.
If the sister is afflicted with "NPD" something triggered her to think she is so incredibly inferior that the ONLY way she can equal the playing field is to go beyond bullying, but rather TORMENT the target. I've been bullied & standing up to a bully will make them find an easier target. Standing up to someone who is truly mentally ill (like NPD) only puts the target in DANGER.
KAI ARCHIE - the writer may easily NOT be a drama queen OR over-sensitive. If sis is NPD, no one else may be aware. If the NPD is in a tirade against the target & a third party walks in, the NPDer will shift gears SO fast that if a soul was a transmission, it would drop out on the floor instantly! I was married just short of 15 years before someone other than our children saw him lay into me. It TERRIFIED the friend.
The worst part of living this hell is that NPDers are unaware they are ill. They have such a skewed view of reality that they have no clue there is something wrong. It CANNOT be treated phamaceutically; it can only be treated with therapy & therein lies the problem. They don't see themselves as sick (and any attempt to convince them of it results in a very ugly confrontation) so it's rarely treated.
I'm by NO means trying to say I'm right about the sister. My point here is to those who are quick to point fingers at the LW. Unless you know the situation OR lived it, your immediate assumption that the LW must be the person with the problem can be WAY off. If you are judging someone in your LIFE with that same set of rules, you may be overlooking a friend in need of your support & love. The girl you see as a drama queen may be living a completely different life on the other side of the door. Some people are masters of emotional disguise, making their victims look like the sickos. It's not to say that drama queens do not exist - I'm just asking that you get more facts before labeling someone. If the LW is indeed the target of an NPD sister, the last thing she needs is another person judging HER.
And I wish the Annies read these comments. It would do them some good to read up on NPD. I suspect more than one person mentioned in a letter is NPD & the LW has no idea what to do about the situation. I've seen some that could fall into that category but the Annies give advice that will backfire in a BIG way if NPD is the problem. And with the number of kids growing up with moms who show NO love (frequently, but not always, NPD can be traced to a mother complex, especially in the afflicted males), the instances of NPD are only due to increase!

Re: Liana Sapphire

Thank you very much for a very, very interesting post. It was a true gem, just like your signature! Nothing like the voice of experience, and I'm glad you finally extricated yourself out of that situation - if I read between the lines accurately.

I was married to a man who made it a point to not be the same in front of witnesses - "ME-E-EH - What are you complaining about? It's not like I'm beating you up. You don't have a bruise to show and I'm not like that in front of anyone else, so who's gonna believe you, ha ha ha!" I found his behaviour in a psychiatry vulgarisation book under "simple paranoia", but perhaps he was a narcissist. That was 40 years ago, some labels may have changed... Whatever - I sure can relate, both to your story and the LW's.

On a different note, yes, we often comment as we were the advice columnists. And, lo and behold, once in a while, a LW comes down BTL (Below The Line), adds a few much-appreciated clarifications and thanks us for our input. Just as, once in a while, someone skips the Annies altogether and asks for advice directly down BTL. So (what could be viewed as) our arrogance is not so much out of line after all.

Personally, if I had a problem, I would much prefer the advice of BTL posters, as it is often more sensible and less sickeningly nicey-nice-nice-nice PC - and you get more than one perspective, and you get it right away. The ideas will be tossed around like a beach ball, with posters adding and substracting - in between all of that, there usually is pretty good advice. Better than OTL (Over The Line).

Don't let our advice-columnist complex deter you from posting again! The more perspectives, the better.

Re: Lise Brouillette

With all due respect, I have been on the wrong end of undeserved hatred........by a delusional nut on at least one occasion. I had a friend/former friend who perceived every single thing I did as a competitive act, from what I ordered in a restaurant, to who I rooted for in sports, to any kind of opinion I had (including over pizza toppings). He was also irrational and paranoid (well, until he saw a therapist, and got medicated). One of the first signs that something was wrong with him ?

He claimed no one else could or would notice how I was slighting him..............Which is exactly what the letter writer above seems to be claiming. I'm not calling her a liar, since it wouldn't make sense to write in then, but I do think something may be wrong with the writer here.

With all due respect Lise Brouillette, have you ever encountered someone, or known someone who had paranoia or was hypersensitive or perceived every statement as a snide remark and every act as competition ? I have, its not pleasant, and it can even be scary. You have to walk on eggshells for fear that this person may snap, over anything. Even compliments can be taken or interpreted as snide putdowns. I don't know if the letter writer above is one of those people, but her facts don't add up, and she left out to many details.

Liana Sapphire - excellent post! Please don't hesitate sharing your point of view again.

Mookster and Lise - your different points of view is what makes the comments here below the line so valuable! Your life experiences gives us a wealth of information from which to deal with our life's dilemmas. We will never know the truth regarding the LW and her sister but if she reads BTL she will find more practical advice than the Annies usually provide.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I have NOT extricated myself from the situation. Not only are our personal lives intertwined (15 years married, he was 2x divorced before I met him & is 10 years older) but also we own a business together. Trying to get out of the mess could be dangerous for me & the children understand that - but they refuse to spend any more time alone with him than is necessary, especially the 13-yo girl (oh, I should note that he ALSO has a 29-yo daughter who cut off ALL communication with him 7 years ago - due to his own behavior he has never met his grandson).
If walking away was easy, I would. My children are well-educated on NPD; as a result WE are expect "eggshell walkers" & can USUALLY see the warning signs of a flare up, which we simply avoid. But I could tell you stories that would make your arm hair stand on end.
Thank you for setting me straight about why some of you post here. Especially coming from you, whose name I see EVERY time I read BTL. Your perspective was helpful.
Oh and the name comes from that Facebook posting that goes around telling you to select your romance novelist name (or something like that) using your middle name (ok, it's off by ONE letter) & the name of the street you grew up on. LOL Thought it sounded cool for this purpose. While HE would recognize the name, he never reads these columns. Me, I never miss them.
Re: Claudia
I just may have to chime in more often, especially if I think the situation may be NPD. I'm thinking of writing the Annies directly & suggesting they read up on the subject. Not to get MY name in print, but to help them expand their knowledge. As some of you have suggested, their advice can be very mamby-pamby. If some of the cases are NPD, the advice given could only make the situation worse!

@Bitey Fish - Is that really you?? Welcome back!!!

@Jar8818 - thank you for asking. My son is doing pretty well on the fish oil, coupled with behavior modification therapy. So far, we have been able to avoid meds. With the fish oil, I have noticed that he just seems much more at ease and comfortable. His countenance is calmer. With the behavior modification therapy he is learning how to handle his emotions without being overwhelmed and he is learning a lot more self-control. His teacher called me a couple of weeks ago and told me that he is a joy in her class and he is able to sit still and focus much better.

Re: Mookster
"With all due respect Lise Brouillette, have you ever encountered someone, or known someone who had paranoia or was hypersensitive or perceived every statement as a snide remark and every act as competition ?"

As a matter of fact, I have, I was married for four years to someone exactly like that. He even glued separate pictures of himself and me on one of our baby's toys to see which one she touched more, and therefore which parent she "loved" more... talk about crazy behaviour. I remember looking at this with wide eyes and an open mouth, WTF? I as I was telling LIna Sapphire, I found his behaviour (ALL the symptoms) outlined exactly in a psychiatry book under "Simple Paranoia". You should read her post.

Thing is, I don't get any hint that this may be the same with the LW. The situation she describes could very well be real with everyone around either ignoring it or outright not noticing - and I've been through that too. Or she simply could be Sister Dearest for her alone and never in front of witnesses - that too, I've seen. Read my answer to Lina.

What you're doing is automatically applying your friend's behaviour to the LW's and equalling the two, and the two things don't necessarily go in the same bag.

Mookster, "someone who had paranoia or was hypersensitive or perceived every statement as a snide remark and every act as competition" - that's exactly how she describes her sister, how come you don't see that and instead choose to apply it to HER?

@Lina Sapphire
I'm very sorry to hear you're still stuck with the problem. From what you're saying, there doesn't seem to be a usable solution in the works any time soon. Any chance you could sell your part in the business? What about buying him out? But I'm sure you thought of all that and would have done it if you could. I feel for you, I really do, especially since I'm at loss as to what to tell you.

Do continue to post. Your perspective is interesting and valuable. Perhaps you should come to Delphi. If you want, we could all look at the situation under each and every one of its bloody angles - 30 heads are better than one. Perhaps one of us will come up with an idea no one had thought of before.

@Sharnee
Well, it cannot be pirahna oil... Rest at ease, Bitey, it comes from FOOD fishes, not your relatives and friends!

Liana Sapphire - With all due respect, NPD is *not* an illness. It is a personality disorder, one that they are considering removing from the next DSM precisely because they are recognizing that those with NPD are in fact not truly ill. NPD is a compilation of personality traits that someone who possesses them deliberately nurtures and believes makes them superior.

Mental illness implies someone suffers. Most people I've known who are truly mentally ill have no desire to harm others and feel deeply ashamed when they do. If they suffer consequences such as lost or damaged relationships, eventually that becomes painful enough to motivate that person to get help.

A narcissist hardly suffers; in fact they relish being in a position of hurting others. If they were not aware their behavior was wrong, they wouldn't be so capable of changing it to suit the situation. They are total chameleons and know when to display or hide their nastiness to get what they want. If they were really that sick, they'd treat everyone indiscriminately.

You might want to read Sam Vaknin's articles on NPD sometime. He himself received an NPD diagnosis and decided to do the public a favor by writing his insights so people can understand just how dangerously warped and vindictive narcissistic thinking really is.

So again, with all due respect, those with NPD are not "sick." They're evil. Sick implies they don't know any better, but Ns do. They don't want help because they don't want to give up the power and control that comes with their delusions.

I am truly sorry about your situation with your husband. My ex, parents and brother all fall under the NPD umbrella as well so I know what hell that can be. I hope for your own sake that you never feel sorry for him being the way he is.

Re: Lise Brouillette

I think we both applied situations we've had to the similarities with the letter writer. The lack of any anecdotal evidence despite the circumstances involved, is what leads me to wonder if she isn't suffering from paranoia. She mentioned snide remarks, but doesn't say what they were (it could have been something snide, it could have been "You look great in that outfit"), the other big red flag, is her belief that her family (despite knowing her sister, for decades, and obviously having been around her) doesn't "see" what she is doing (she doesn't say her sister is two faced, or has a public persona and another with her, she clearly states "they don't notice")....These are all red flags, she isn't even saying they ignore her behavior, or don't witness it, she is saying they aren't picking up on it. Thats the part that reminds me of the situation I had.

If she gave some examples (note, in her entire letter, she never actually names one thing that her sister did to her, other then call her names for boycotting her wedding), maybe I would see it differently, maybe if said her sister was two faced (acting one way in front of family, and one way when they aren't around), I would look at it differently, maybe if she even said, that the family was walking on eggshells around her, and she was known as a terror and that no one wanted to cross her, even then I would be able to look at it differently. Instead, she is clear, "they don't notice" the treatment her sister gives her (the "they" knowing her and her sister for decades) and her sister doesn't appear to be hiding any sort of behavior, yet this writer thinks/assumes that extended family and friends (she makes it clear she doesn't care about her parents or grandmother) will believe her sister over her, or frown on her.

This does sound a bit out there. There are to many things missing, for me to come down on the letter writers side, and to many maybes for me to assume.

In my case my (now former) friend showed delusions where he claimed no one else could tell what I was saying and doing, and couldn't understand why. Here, she isn't even saying that, she is saying they don't even notice.

Re: Mookster

Well, I have seen plenty of examples of people who "aren't picking up on it, and I'm not the paranoid kind - potty-mouthed, yes, but not paranoid.

I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of the examples she's "not giving". Just because they weren't printed doesn't mean she didn't give them, and even if she didn't, that doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not giving you any examples to go with my first paragraph right now, and yet they do exist.

The problem here is that you insist on applying your experience with paranoid hyper-sensitive drama queens to the LW rather than the person she's writing about, who seems to me a lot more likely candidate.

Aw well. Unless the LW graces us with a BTL presence, I guess we'll never know, shall we?! ;-)

Re: Lise Brouillette

"Aw well. Unless the LW graces us with a BTL presence, I guess we'll never know, shall we?! ;-)"

If she did, she would probably claim none of us are noticed :-)

lW2: I disagree with the assessment that it's unfair for the roommate to pay for an apartment he rarely uses. The young man rented the apartment, just because he chooses to sleep at his girlfriend's place doesn't release him of his obligation to pay his share of the apartment costs. If he doesn't want to pay for an apartment he rarely uses, then he should serve notice to vacate in accordance to the lease/rental agreement. The couple can then decide to find another roommate or move to an apartment they can afford on their own.

But it seems the issue is late payment of bills associated with the apartment; the couple should then handle paying these bills since the roommate fails to pay on time.

LW2
As the adventive party in this arrangement, it is appropriate to bring up the subject with Scott. Do this in a non-confrontational way, stating that as the rooming situation has changed recently, you feel it is time to reconsider how the bills are paid. Let everyone discuss it and come up with the fairest way to make sure there are no more late fees. It might be a good idea to discuss any other sharing arrangements such as cleaning and provisions.
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