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A Little Distance Can Mean a Happy New Year
Dear Readers: Happy New Year! We hope you celebrated responsibly, and that 2012 will bring good health and good cheer to all of our wonderful readers.
Dear Annie: I've been married for 14 years and have known my husband's family for an additional 10. My mother-in-law has always been critical of me, and I know she was critical of both her sons' previous partners. She has called me lazy, disparages any gift I buy her, criticizes my weight and even selected furniture for our home because I "have no taste." I always bite my tongue.
Now that we have a child, her behavior has escalated. We moved to a different country (it was my husband's dream), and she blamed me, saying I am preventing her from having a relationship with my husband and child. For the first time ever, I stood my ground and we had an argument.
Since then, she has openly complained about me to my mother and stepmother. My husband told her she was out of line, but she didn't stop. My father-in-law takes her side, and they both are demanding an apology. (I've already apologized.) They say I am not welcome in their home. My husband's brother also has joined forces with them.
My husband is having a hard time standing up to his family. I also believe he figures it's pointless since we live so far away. I will support my husband and child in whatever relationship they decide to have with my in-laws, but I have decided to remove myself from his parents' lives altogether.
How do I do this without causing an issue in my marriage? Although I am convinced that cutting ties is the healthiest option, how do I stop the anger and sadness at the way I've been treated? — California
Dear California: Try to understand that this is not about you. It's about your mother-in-law's need for absolute control over her children. We think you are making the right decision to remove yourself from the drama while allowing your husband and child to have a relationship with the in-laws. But your husband must be vigilant when he visits to make sure that your mother-in-law does not say unkind things about you to the grandchild. If she does, he should leave immediately.
Dear Annie: My older sister (who has a longstanding case of sibling rivalry) will often say something critical about herself and include me in the put-down. One of my friends does this, as well. For instance, they may say, "It's time WE got a face lift" or "Too bad WE look our age." I think such statements are meant to sabotage my self-esteem, although I'm sure they would deny it if I were to say so. Instead, I remain silent, but I resent it.
Any advice on how to nip their criticisms in the bud without turning it into a confrontation? — Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Dear Montreal: Some people talk about themselves in the third person as a way to deflect the seriousness of their worries, and it may have nothing to do with you. But if you truly believe your sister and friend are doing this deliberately to undermine your confidence, respond with total innocence, "Oh, no, dear, you don't look nearly as old as you think." That should take care of it.
Dear Annie: I, too, have gone through menopause and have no desire to be intimate with my husband. If the sexual feelings are gone, they cannot be replaced, and sex is boring. I have given in to my husband's desires, but it is no fun for me, and I feel used afterward.
There is more to a relationship than sex, such as good conversation, holding and understanding where a woman is in life. If this man needs sex so much, I say go find it. — Understands in Nebraska
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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39 Comments | Post Comment
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Happy new year,everyone! I hope 2012 is a great year for all of you.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Michael
Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:38 PM
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HAPPY NEW YEAR! (Horns, bells, whistles and confetti)
Comment: #2
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:53 PM
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LW1-
"If she does, he should leave immediately."
Good luck enforcing that. It might be a good idea to count the divorces that can be credited to this woman's meddling and remind your husband of that.
LW2-
Try, "Oh dear, your mirror must have more wrinkles than mine, because I don't think "we" look that old..."
LW3-
Watch it, honey - precisely because there is more to a relationsip than sex, your husband might decide he wants "good conversation, holding and understanding" with the same woman he's having sex with, and that won't be you.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:00 PM
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Happy New Year to everyone.
LW1 - Oh do I ever sympathize... my situation's similar, except we moved *closer* to his family thinking they would be supportive. Wrong. It was after we did so that the criticism against me started. My MIL also undermined our parenting after we had our son.
I finally did what you did - I distanced myself, particularly from MIL. My husband also initially didn't stand up to his family but between my setting boundaries and our talking to a counselor he started doing so. Sadly MIL became worse and in the end we cut off contact. Some mothers, I have learned, try to construct apron strings out of titanium; when you cut them, they can get real nasty... and there's really little you can do.
You asked how you distance yourself without causing issues in your marriage. I think it's reasonable to tell your husband what you told us, and make it clear it's for your mental and emotional health, that you will not interfere with his or your kids' relationships with his family. If necessary, enlist a friend your husband trusts or a counselor to spell out how important this is, and how he needs put you first. Going milquetoast around his family is still his choosing to put them over you, even if in a passive way, and that's insulting.
I think you're doing the right thing. I'm really sorry this is happening to you. I understand the pain and aggravation all too well.
LW2 - "Any advice on how to nip their criticisms in the bud without turning it into a confrontation?" Yep. Excuse yourself from the conversation and leave the room or go home. Don't just sit there silently - that still gives 'em an audience. Lather, rinse, repeat. If that fails, follow Lise's suggestion.
LW3 - "If this man needs sex so much, I say go find it." If you're referring to your husband, then I say be careful what you wish for. This is a lot like getting a fortune cookie containing the old proverb, "May you live in interesting times."
Just saying.
Comment: #4
Posted by: PS
Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:42 PM
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LW3: I don't understand you OR your attitude towards sex with your husband. Blaming menopause? That is such a copout. Your letter gives me the shudders, especially since you're married and you find this aspect of marriage "boring" and that it's "no fun" for you. Honey, I've been going through menopause for several years now, and I've got the opposite problem -- I'M the one with the increasing sexual libido, but have no husband or boyfriend presently. Damn, I wish I had the "problem" of a significant other with a high sex drive! Sex is as much fun or as passionate as you perceive it and make it in your life. There's help for you -- but you have to want it. Find ways to make sex exciting again, and share these ways with your husband. Because if you don't, you may lose him to someone else who will gladly have more fun with him than you are right now.
Comment: #5
Posted by: dekaft1
Sun Jan 1, 2012 12:16 AM
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happy new year to all and to all a good morning!
Comment: #6
Posted by: alien07110
Sun Jan 1, 2012 4:09 AM
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LW1: To answer your specific question, counselling. Definitely consider getting counselling for yourself alone, but you may also want to consider couple's counselling, so that you can work to the bottom of the issues together. There's also a book out there called "Toxic In-Laws" that may be of value to you.
Given that your husband told your mother she's out of line, it sounds to me like he is trying to stand up to them. Imagine how hard it is for him, too. What we all hope will be a seamless new family amounts to his biological family attacking his chosen family. He's essentially forced to choose sides. I can't imagine how difficult it is for a guy put in this position.
I'm sorry for what you're facing. If it helps, my husband and I are in the same position and have been ostracized from the family for not apologizing for our boundaries. In our case, it started on the day of our destination wedding. My FIL and his GF liked our location so much that they decided to have a fake wedding 3 hours after ours, and tried to steal our minister, photographer, guests, cakes, flowers, and musicians in the process. (No, I'm not kidding...I am aware that this sounds like a budget comedy.) I was horrified and walked out, and the GF later attempted to throw the guilt trip on me saying how selfish we were to have everyone travel so far, that they were just doing their wedding for the sake of the family already gathered, a lot of BS like that. With my new husband supporting me, I walked off then, too. My FIL and GF demanded an apology from me via my husband for ruining their day, not letting them have their fifteen minutes, not realizing that our day was "over." My husband hung up on his dad.
This was three years ago, and we don't hear from them anymore. If my husband wants to have a relationship with his father, I certainly would support it. At this point, however, I don't consider myself to have in-laws, and neither one of us acknowledges the GF's place in his father's life. How have we survived? We returned to our pre-marital counsellor, and I also regularly see a personal counsellor. I'm the sort who goes out of my way to please others and struggles with those boundaries. It sucks and is certainly not how I envisioned the family into which I would marry...but I keep reminding myself that with people like this, if it weren't our wedding day, it would have been something else. Keep it in mind that you can't control their poor decisions, immature behaviour or inappropriateness. The only thing you can control is your happiness. Try not to focus on their negative web of drama, consider counselling and prioritize your boundaries for your own happiness. They're apparently not going to do so.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Marriedgal
Sun Jan 1, 2012 4:27 AM
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LW1--"I will support my husband and child in whatever relationship they decide to have with my in-laws, but I have decided to remove myself from his parents' lives altogether." Removing yourself from your in-law's lives should prove fairly simple at this point since you don't reside in the same country as they do. The easiest approach is to simply disengage. When an in-law phones, you hand the telephone to your husband. When (or if) one of them asks about your conspicuous absence from family events, your husband will simply say you're feeling under the weather and then change the subject. When your husband visits his relatives, he goes alone or with your child. When your in-laws visit your husband, they stay at a hotel and meet out. While they're in town, you simply go about your business as usual. You should not, under any circumstances use your child as a pawn in this game. Allow your in-laws to see the child and allow the child to participate wherever possible in the family. As for getting over the pain and hurt, just let it go. All that is water under the bridge. Take solace in the fact that you don't have to see any of these people ever again.
LW2--"Any advice on how to nip their criticisms in the bud without turning it into a confrontation?" First of all, if these sorts of "criticisms" are bothering you then your self-esteem is already in the toilet and I recommend you speak to a therapist to discover why you're so sensitive to such innocuous comments. What makes you think you can "nip" what other people say in the bud? You can't control the actions of others, only your own. When someone says something like "It's time WE got a face lift" you smile and say "speak for yourself" then you don't give it a second thought.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 1, 2012 7:22 AM
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Re: dekaft1
I'm so tired of every female problem being blamed on hormones... including when a woman gets angry at anything, right away, she's having her period or menopausing. This is SO insulting. I menopaused some 6-7 years ago and my sex drive if fine, thank you.
The truth of the matter is, even in this day and age, too many women are still socialised to think that sex is only for men's benefit or making babies and that good girls don't. Times change but mentalities don't. I couldn't count the men I've seen in my day (some of them YOUNG), who keep wailing that their women are cold fishes and that they live like monks, but show them a woman who likes sex and they think she's a whore. The ex LOML has a huge issue with that, the only women he doesn't have a problem with are the non-sexual ones, ie, his mother and (for the time being), his daughters.
For the countless women who are sadly buying into that to win the approval of their entourage, the minute the baby machine shuts down, they feel that the main purpose of the thing is now passe and that they don't have an obligation anymore to just shut their eyes and think of England. And the MEN who buy into that... their attitude towards sex is one of a hungry dog panting after raw meat 24/7, which would be enough to turn the both of us off - yeccch.
And that's another thing - sex can also be used as a control tool. All these women who write complaining that they have no interest anymore, I'd be curious to be in a position to examine the attitude and behaviour of the husbands.
As a case in point I've mentioned before, If I think of my (now late) ex husband... It didn't matter how much I gave him, it was not enough, it was never enough, NOTHING was ever enough. It got to the point where I had to lock the door to the bathroom to pee in peace, just the fact that my undies were going down was enough to get him started. Yestersday, we were talking about the man who woke up having sex and someone mentioned that men get a hard-on several times a night - well, this one was hard ALL night (not difficult to figure out what he was dreaming of) and he mentioned several times he would have L-O-O-O-O-OVED to wake up with me on top of him.
Unfortunately, he was after me all the time, all the time, all the time, pant-pant-pant, slobber, slobber, slobber to such an extent that whatever urge I might have had was totally pre-empted by a constant state of over-saturation. I think he was obsessed with both sex AND control. And there is nothing wrong with my sex drive, thank you, and there never was. But he was so one-track-minded all the time that he was turning ME into a cold fish. As in, buzz off - couldn't have a conversation, couldn't make a joke, couldn't have fun doing anything, couldn't show affection, it all lead to the same thing, ENOUGH ALREADY! It's like cake, you can't eat nothing but twinkies all day long, too much becomes not enough.
And you can be certain none of this would have been mentioned had he been the one to write to an advice columnist complaining about me, as far as he was concerned, he never had a problem with anything, it was always me. I wonder how many other cases like that are out there.
@Marriedgal
The LW, PS, you... good flamin' grief, how many crazy in-law cases are there out there? I can't understand why these people don't see that they are the ones creating the problem they're complaining about, and that it's all their fault that they're being OUT-lawed!
I guess narcissists never see anything like that, everything is always about themselves. Which brings us back to the original question - how many narcissists are out there? Seems like an epidemic.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 7:50 AM
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@Chris
LW2- The "Speak for yourself" suggestion was fine, the rest was not. A person is not oversensitive to the point of needing a therapist because s/he doesn't like catty comments. You never miss an opportunity, do you?
Comment: #10
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 7:54 AM
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Re: dekaft1
It always astounds me how hard women are on women who have lost interest in sex. Why shouldn't the "menopause card" be played?! It's neither untrue nor uncommon that menopause pulls the plug on many, many women. There is nothing wrong with us, nothing that needs fixing. You still enjoy it. Well, bully for you! There are few things more repugnant than submitting when you're completely turned off by the mere thought of physical intimacy, and the stress that goes along with the sense of guilt that plagues many of us on a day-in-day-out basis is a profound hardship as well. I may or may not be in the minority, but most days I wish my husband would find someone else to take the pressure off me already. I am so tired of the innuendo, pawing and general pestering I endure on a daily basis from an almost 58-year-old man who was, for whatever reasons, so much less interested in his 20s and 30s when I would have welcomed more of that kind of attention.
Comment: #11
Posted by: clemma
Sun Jan 1, 2012 7:54 AM
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LW2 - "Oh dear, We don't need a face lift. But let me know how one works out for you."
Comment: #12
Posted by: Paula
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:03 AM
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Re: clemma
Your husband is more interested now than he was in his 20's and 30's because then, he was taking his virility for granted - no longer, since he can feel (and see) he's ageing, and he's trying to prove himself, regardless of how it makes you feel like a hole in the wall.
I'll not go hard on you - read my post #9 is you haven't already - but read also what I told LW3. Telling your husband to get his satisfaction elsewhere is a dangerous game that you're not sure to win. Before you tell him that, you have to ask yourself if you would rather live with your husband AND his obsession or without him altogether. Because this is what telling him that may eventually lead to.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:05 AM
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Re: Paula
Hee hee hee ho ho ho HAW HAW HAW HAW! That was the BEST one so far! (still laughing)
Comment: #14
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:07 AM
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LW1 - You're enjoying this aren't you? I mean really. You've known this family for 24 years and now it's a problem? Take yourself out of the picture. It won't be as much fun you but it would solve the problem.
LW2 - "It's time WE got a face lift" says she. "Weill, I don't know about WE but YOU sure could use one and, you may want to consider those tits too while you're at it", you reply.
LW3 - The smart ones probably are :-)
Comment: #15
Posted by: Rick
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:10 AM
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Re:Lise Brouillette - Actually, Lise she was not writing because she finds the comments boring, silly or otherwise innocuous. She wrote because she specifically thinks they are said to sabotage her self esteem. Chris is right; she needs to look at that. The average person would have a retort or not give it a second thought. If my sister told me that I'd say, "Damn straight WE need facelifts and YOU can pay for THEM".
Comment: #16
Posted by: Rick
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:17 AM
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Happy New Year!!!
RE LW3- Conversation and other things are extremely important in a relationship but I think Physical contact and closeness is too. thats the difference between a husband and a wife or just friends living together. I think you can handle the once in a while.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Yoshi Mama
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:23 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
I never said I'D TELL him to go elsewhere, because I would never do that. What I said was most days I WISH HE would. I am fairly certainly I no longer love him; however, I am better off with him than without him. I need a quieter, gentler, simpler attitude at this station in life, and he doesn't get it. This makes for resentment on my part which, I admit, could lead to "Oh, you've found someone else, have you?" But, as I said, I am tired. I need peace. I would survive.
Comment: #18
Posted by: clemma
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:51 AM
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Re: Rick
Not everybody is good at one-liners - I know plenty of people who complain they repeatedly think of a killer retort two hours after the fact. I myself am better at it than I used to be, because I learned by heart of few of them and recycled them the next time over, but there are still times when I'm an hour late in the Maritimes.
As for her self-esteem, yes, if the comments are so frequent it's like a rainfall, it would be because they're trying to get at her self-esteem, and it is not being neurotic to see that.
I'm very, very tired of verbal bullies (men and women both, this is not a gender thing) who fight for the right to dish out their yurunda, and then accuse their target of being emotionally fragile or not having a sense of humour when called off on their cattiness. The only thing that works is to give them a taste of their own medicine, but not everyone has what it takes. Just because she doesn't have a mouth doesn't mean she needs a therapist.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:40 AM
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Re: clemma
Aw well. I do wish you a happy, quieter, gentler, simpler new year!
Comment: #20
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:43 AM
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You have sex with your husband and you feel USED?! Give me a break, he's your HUSBAND for Pete's sake! You love him, don't you?? Do you???
Comment: #21
Posted by: happymom
Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:57 AM
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@ Lise Brouillette Re: LW2
Do you honestly think an emotionally healthy, normal person would write into an advice columnist seeking advice on how to stop people from making, by her own examples, rather glib put-downs about themselves? The LW takes her sister's and friend's flippant comments highly personally because they happen to contain the word "we" and therefore in her mind must be insults directed towards her. We've all heard people make these sorts of comments and I for one never give it a second thought. My guess is that the sibling rivalry stems from a perception that her sister is the favored or more successful sibling and this is really at the heart of the LW's low self-esteem. In fact, clearly this person's self-esteem is so low it's affecting her life to the point where she's reaching out for advice. Notice how she asks how to stop the comments without a confrontation. She's so fragile she can't even approach her own sister or best friend with how the comments make her feel? If you don't think this LW could benefit from a few therapy sessions to help her sort through her feelings then I think you've had one too many glasses of champagne last night.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 1, 2012 10:17 AM
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Re LW#3------this topic sure sets off a firestorm whenever it comes up. Women who still enjoy sex, women who don't, and they all go at each other's throats. Come on, now, there really isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' here. You either still enjoy it or you don't. (And those who said they don't but hate the fact that they have to go along and 'pretend' to enjoy it have a valid point-----as would a man who didn't enjoy it but had to go along, if there could ever be such a thing.) Not usually physically possible for them, though, since they have a hard time (pun intended) faking it.
I think maybe it all comes down to a couple things------------------first, how good is your husband in bed? Second, does sex happen only when he initiates it, or does the wife get some say-so?
Speaking from my own experience, which is all I have to go on-----------my husband was not terribly good in bed. Didn't matter how much I told or showed him what I did and did not like, he could not get it. Right in the middle, at a crucial point, he would abandon whatever was turning me on and do something else. And he never remembered from one time to the next what I had said I liked. I did try my best to do things that pleased him, but like anything else in a marriage, if you feel it is all give and no take, you lose interest.
Frankly, I was glad when he could no longer do anything, even though the constant fumbling and frantic trying was awful, until he finally gave it up. (Not because I refused, but due to his fear of having a second heart attack.)
I think if he had ever really been any good at anything regarding sex other than just getting himself off as quickly as possible, it might have been different; I had previous relationships with men who WERE good at it, and I never felt like there was 'too much sex'. It was just him. Couldn't do it right, had no interest in learning, wanted to be the one to initiate where, when, and for how long.
I read once that men who are terrible at dancing, can't be taught, and have no interest in learning because they think they are already good, will also be bad at sex, and based on my own experience, I think that is right on.
(Unfortunately, I read this AFTER I had married him, because he was the worst dancer I ever saw. That was another thing I refused to do with him after awhile.)
Comment: #23
Posted by: jennylee
Sun Jan 1, 2012 11:07 AM
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Why has there been so many letters about sex? Are the Annies' not getting any or something?
Comment: #24
Posted by: Paul
Sun Jan 1, 2012 11:18 AM
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Re: Chris
Whether she is making too big a deal out of it is immaterial. They're nothing but glib, possibly catty comments, but she doesn't like it and is asking how to deal. The best way to deal in my opinion (and others') is to give them a taste of their own medicine, with a few snappy comebacks suggsted to her as a base to start with. Problem solved. Why are YOU making such a big deal out of it?
Comment: #25
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 12:50 PM
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HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone !! Frohes neues Jahr !!
@ Lise post # 3 for LW 3- You took the words right outta my mouth. When women or men come out with something like that "Go find it", well, that's asking for trouble. I wonder if she'll be writing the Annies in a few months to say that "He found it."
Hey Lise, did ya have a good slide last night ?
Well, 2011 is behind us. There had been a few outbursts/shouting matches/misunderstandings, etc. towards posters, I said this before and I'll say it again. I hope everyone can get along and be nice to each other.
All you have to do is be COOL, CALM & COLLECTIVE - Bring out the "SECRET" !!
Comment: #26
Posted by: Gwen
Sun Jan 1, 2012 12:54 PM
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@Chris, Do you honestly think an emotionally healthy, normal person would write into an advice columnist seeking advice on how to stop people from making, by her own examples, rather glib put-downs about themselves? ....Well you keep writing into this section every day (are you normal)?
@Lise - for crying out loud stop picking apart others posts. You are always looking for a fight. Actually you both need to get a life. Go out take a walk, make some new friends, find another hobby (that's actually involves real activities in the REAL world!
Comment: #27
Posted by: blundey
Sun Jan 1, 2012 1:32 PM
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Happy belated New Year's everyone! I've been traveling and have been quiet, and probably will be quiet for some days to come, but I hope that 2012 brings good things to all of you.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jan 1, 2012 3:04 PM
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@ Lise Brouillette
*Sigh*... Once again, if someone has a different opinion than yours, they're wrong. It's nice to know you're as predictable as ever in 2012.
@ blundey
Yeah, I post here every day but I'm not here asking for advice now am I? And for the record, I'm so far from *normal* I'm not even in the same galaxy as normal. Welcome to the club.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 1, 2012 5:37 PM
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Re: Chris
Yep, same as you - we're both very consistent, it would seem... ;-D Like what you said to Blunder, BTW...
@Blunder
I have more of a of life than you think - not everyone takes ten minutes to pound out two sentences. And I have a right to post here as much as I want, same as Chris and same as everybody. Blpblpblpblpb, and a happy New Year to you too!
Comment: #30
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 6:15 PM
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"I guess narcissists never see anything like that, everything is always about themselves. Which brings us back to the original question - how many narcissists are out there? Seems like an epidemic."
Lise - Some experts guess that up to 16% of the population is malignantly narcissistic. I think the explosion of the "Me Generation" stuff that went on in the '70s definitely nurtured an environment that made it "okay" to be this way for the past few decades, but now the pendulum is swinging back the other way and that's bringing all this information out in the open, and making it more visible as something that is NOT okay.
Narcissism is something that's been discussed in psychological circles for some time. However, I think it's only in the last ten years or so that folks are starting to recognize how truly destructive malignant narcissists can be.
I read an article a while back in a business journal where the author (and I believe she has a background in psychology) outright said in her opinion the only good way to deal with a narcissist in the workplace is fire them, or if you recognize someone as one during a job interview, do NOT hire them under any circumstances. In other words, thin out the herd. Yikes.
As for my in-law situation... sad is about the best descriptor for it. It kills us that our hands are tied in respect to helping FIL because of the way the laws are out here, that our son can't grow up with his cousins, and that it's this way because we have to put protecting our own family first. All we can really do is pray that things will right themselves someday, though I wonder if it would end up taking MIL kicking the bucket before that would happen. Ugh.
Comment: #31
Posted by: PS
Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:11 PM
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@Gwen
I had a very nice slide, thank you... stayed home and avoided the slide on my boumboum on frozen sidewalks or, worse yet, accidents with my van on frozen roads. Got frosted all by my poor self, endured ex-LOML's rotten temper when I called him to wish him a happy New Year's, enjoyed ex's pleasant demeanour in the same circumstance, hoping I can get back with HIM.
@PS
"In other words, thin out the herd. "
Well, that goes along with my instinct that says, STEER CLEAR OF THEM. I haven't researched the subject extensively, and you seem to know more about it than I do. Is this something one is born with, like socio/psychopathy? Or is it something that people develop over time, thanks to destructive parenting?
Mind you, what "science" says right now might not be what it says in 50 years. "It" used to blame parenting for schizophrenia - sheesh.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 10:19 PM
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Lise - From what I've seen it's a combination of nature and nurture. The nature has to be there for the nurture to really stick, if that makes sense... some state everyone has a certain level of narcissism in them, and everyone will act self-entitled, vain, inconsiderate, obnoxious, "look at me, look at me" syndrome, etc., from time to time as part of the human condition.
The difference between being the occasional obnoxious human being and NPD is with NPD, it's a perpetual case of arrested development. My former therapist explained that there's a deep wounding of the ego that occurs in many/most with NPD sometime in their childhood that triggers the disorder.
Us relatively normal folks feel our consciences bite us when we begin showing those behaviors and that gives us pause to yank yourselves back into the straight and narrow, apologize to anyone we hurt, etc. NPDs don't because they lack total empathy. They're not capable of it.
I believe the DSM says traits of NPD manifest themselves starting in late adolescence, early adulthood... and one has to make that distinction because most children are self-centered and really can't see beyond themselves due to lack of maturity here and there. If someone hasn't managed to outgrow that stuff by their early to mid-20s, then there's a problem.
I agree we may have a totally different perspective on all this in 50 years. I'd like to think we'll have cracked the code and found a way to treat things like NPD and sociopathy by then, but then again, it's the whole you can lead a horse to water thing, in that you can make the treatment available but if they feel there's nothing wrong with them it's not exactly going to be effective when they don't want the help.
As an aside, I read of a study a while back (and sorry if I've shared this before) where they gave a control group doses of oxytocin, the hormone that induces bonding and "lovey dovey" feelings if you will. Non-sociopaths responded to the oxytocin... sociopaths didn't! That really blew my mind and it goes to show the root cause of whatever's going on with them is deeper than we may realize. Either way they're still dangerous.
Comment: #33
Posted by: PS
Mon Jan 2, 2012 3:11 PM
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Re: PS
Thank you for the explanation. So this is where science stands of as right now. But nature/nurture all you want, someone who has no empathy was likely born that way, although trauma can make it worse.
No empathy is the hallmark of sociopathy, by the way. You've got the violent, murderous ones (psychopaths) and the serial cheaters/liars/con artists/etc (sociopaths). Either one can pass a lie detector test with flying colours because they have no guilt about anything, including lying. Appealing to their sense of decency is totally useless because there IS no sense of decency - no guilt. Indeed whatever is going on with them runs deeper than any therapy or medication can touch, because an essential compoment to humanity is missing.
The only thing science could do to "cure" these people would be to find a way to put the missing piece in. Until that happens, the only way to deal is complete removal, whether it involves staying away from them permanently, jail without the possibility of parole of the death penalty.
I knew about the oxytocin (perhaps from you). I would be curious to see them repeat it on narcissists.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Jan 3, 2012 6:48 AM
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Agreed, Lise. We can theorize and research all we want, but the bottom line is, if someone's destructive, they're destructive, and you have to do what you have to do to be safe. Learning about NPD and sociopathy helped me listen to red flags I was taught to ignore in a dysfunctional family and reinforce my decision to stay away from them, though, I'll say that much.
IF someone is treatable, then they have to take responsibility for pursuing that themselves. Once again, the old "You can lead a horse to water" saying holds true here.
That's why the Annies' doling out the advice to have some nice little talk with someone a LW complains about gets on my nerves. I would bet the farm that by the time the LW has written to the Annies, they've already done that - and guess what? It didn't work!
I have seen some people reform. I had a buddy at work who admitted he was verbally abusive in relationships until enough women finally told him see ya! By the time I met him, I was surprised to find that out about him because he was such a good guy. He even helped me get through a bad situation I was in at the time.
Unfortunately, so far, he and others I've seen turn a new leaf have remained in the minority in terms of how I've seen toxic people respond when they hear they need to change because their behavior's unhealthy. For that reason I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my boundaries and giving people second chances.
It doesn't mean I don't offer someone the opportunity to make amends, but I am very, very careful about doing so these days, much more than I used to be. I still remember thinking of Danny Glover's famous line, "I'm gettin' too old for this ****!" when dealing with my ex pulling his stuff yet again in a court-ordered counseling session in my mid-20s; I think I even yelled it during that session. Finally, after years of giving him and every other abuser in my life second chances because I thought that's what it meant to be nice, I was fed up. Getting sick and tired of that crap is a great motivator to change.
Have you ever read "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout, by the way? Very good information and the author pulls no punches about making it clear there's no explaining away such people to where it's safe to be around them.
Comment: #35
Posted by: PS
Tue Jan 3, 2012 9:39 AM
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Re: PS
Not yet, but if I see a copy somewhere, I"ll pick it up.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:38 AM
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Not sure this posted; going to try again.
LW2: <Ahem> "Speak for yourself." I have a friend who does this, but about our weight, because we're still relatively young. "We really need to hit the gym, don't we?" "Speak for yourself." "We don't need that dessert, do we?" "Speak for yourself. I'll have the cheesecake." There's no need to laugh it off, but no need to stalk away mortally offended, either. Just make it clear that you don't talk about yourself that way, thanks very much.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Erin W
Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:17 AM
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LW1
It sounds as if your husband's mother will never be amenable for her destructive tendencies. You have done your best by distancing your family physically and emotionally. Leave the rest to time. Do not expose your children to her difficult personality any more than necessary.
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Comment: #38
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:03 PM
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^^
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Comment: #39
Posted by: Tex
Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:22 AM
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