Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

Wow Annies way to blow it on LW1. As if she should feel guilty for knowing this family wrecker is still alive (the MIL was projecting).

LW1, offer her help and if she won't take it cut her off and do not look back. Move (as far as humanly possible) if you can. You and your husband are a family now, and deserve to grow and nourish that family away from toxic people like her. What on earth was up with your parents allowing this witch to live with them?!

I may sound cold but I've had similar relatives and you know what? I haven't spoken to them in 22 years and my life is awesome. I feel sorry for my relatives who still have them in their lives. And I have been accused of putting the burden all on them (oh please!) but my response is simply they choose to engage with Toxic Sludge, and that's not my problem. My family "obligations" end right when you make my life not worth living.

You've obviously never dealt with people who have made your life miserable, have you, Annies? My youngest sister, Narcissa, completely destroyed my relationship with my mother. Mommy Dearest was a willing victim, refused to see what Narcissa was doing. My life would have been a lot less stressful had I just said, "so long and thanks for all the fish" and walked away, never to look back. It was a relief when she died. I do not miss her. Even better, I no longer have to deal with Narcissa.

I completely understand where Ready to Throw in the Towel is coming from. And getting "Mary" to accept help...well, rotsa ruck. She isn't likely to accept the kind of help she needs.

LW1-
The usual useless yurunda from the Annies.
"Please contact the National Alliance on Mental Illness and ask for help."
"Mom has doctors and therapists provided to her by the state"
She refuses to apply for disability, she refuses to help herself, she just wants to lay a guilt trip and lay it on thick, and generally be a narcassistic witch.

"We were sympathetic until you said that "knowing she is still living is a burden."
No, you're not. Your "'sympathy" only extends until the LW is honest about how fed up she is. And justifiably so, I might add. The LW is not intimating she's about to start plotting on how to take her out, just that she wishes she no longer was around. Which is natural.

"We realize she is difficult"
No, you don't. You don't realise just HOW difficult she is, otherwise you would use stronger words to describe her. And you would understand how the LW feels.

"but Mary also sounds mentally ill. Healthy, well-adjusted people do not behave like this."
Gee, you noticed? Thank you so much for informing ther LW, I'm sure she needed to be told! In French, this is called a Verite de la Palice.

LW1, I'm not going to slam you for saying that just the fact that she is still living is a burden, because it is. Yes, it does sound awful, but just because it does doesn't make it untrue. SHE is awful. Considering the available resources are of no help because she won't help herself, the only remedy is distance. I strongly recommend it. Thankfully, your husband seems to have his priorities in the right place. Cut her off and/or relocate, changing cities or even state. Both if necessary.

LW2-
"Should I ignore this?"
Yes.

" Should I ask that they consider our feelings in the future?"
Not worth the possible family feud.

"We don't want to display an album with pictures of my ex."
Take them out.

Then, the next time the family is all together whip out the camera or camera phone and take some pictures you can display in your home.

LW3-
"And she should insist that her husband sit in on the lessons."
Only if he's open to retraining. If he already thinks he knows it all, he'll only teach that attitude to his children and they will learn from him how to disregard your teaching.

LW1 – Do you know why after your MIL posted fliers around town calling you a family wrecker your parents responded by letting Mary move in with them for two years? I find this absolutely baffling. Are you not close with your parents either? Or, is Mary that conniving that she was able to convince your parents that you and your husband instigated the whole mess? And, why only two years, especially when Mary didn't have any other place to go?

Mary sounds like the type of person who expects people to know that she is above all others, and deserves to be treated as such. The fact that it was your husband who asked Mary to leave shows you two are on the same page (I also don't think the family “connection” is so important to him since, according to Mary, it is his fault that she has been depressed since his birth).

I would, in your case, simply remove myself from the situation. Be there for your husband, for support, but get it into your head that Mary is not your responsibility. Tell her and anybody else who has cited a negative opinion on your absence that you have done all that was possible and that you can't *make* Mary get the help she needs, and Mary needs to step up and help herself. Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't lose sleep over Mary; I would concentrate on the family you so badly want to get started. Good luck to you and your husband.

Re LW2: It was insensitive for the son to include pictures of his child with his other paternal grandparent? Is the LW so bitter about his divorce that he can't accept the fact that his son's mother is also part of his grandchild's life? If the LW couldn't find it within himself to get over his bitterness for his son's sake, then he could at least try for his grandson's sake.

LW2: You are taking this way too personally. My guess is that your ex wife spends more time with your son's family than you do and that's why there are more pictures of her in the book.

Should you talk to your son about this? Well, maybe. I'd try talking about this with someone else first (NOT your wife, she's totally biased and likely is behind you even paying attention to how many pictures there are of your ex in the book to begin with). And then listen to yourself. Do you sound petty when you describe the situation? Then DON'T mention it to your son.

Then next time you are at your son's house, say, "I noticed there aren't a lot of pictures of me and Current Wife with the baby, can you please take some? We'd love a few to have around the house". Leave it at that.

PS: You say your wife left you for another man, but you recovered pretty quickly yourself by remarrying in a year. It sounds to me as if you and your wife have as much to do with this feud as your ex does. Bear is right you need to get over this dynamic for the sakes of your grandchildren.

Re: LW1, if there's enough of a problem, and enough evidence, then you could possibly attempt to have her involuntarily committed. However, I'm not sure that her behavior really crosses that threshold, at least from the brief description in your letter.

If you and your husband agree, maybe it is best to completely shut that door and move away -- although clearly your own parents are in the same general area, and you may not want to move too far from them. Still, even moving a few towns over may be enough to put enough distance between you and her.

One more thing... the Annies aren't the only people who are going to be turned off by sentiment like your final line. Most people will be very sympathetic to what you're going through without saying anything like that. I know you must be frustrated, believe me... but certain thoughts are probably better left unsaid, especially if you want to keep other people "on your side" in this difficult situation.

LW2: You've been married to your current wife for 17 years and she helped raise the children, so it does seem odd that your children disrespected your current wife in such an obvious way. You don't mention what their relationship with her is like,though. Has there been a recent falling out in an otherwise good relationship? Has your current wife ever said bad things about your ex-wife, which the children are starting to resent?

Given that you've likely been married to your current wife for *longer* than you were married to your children's mother, I think there is something *off* about the choice of photos your son chose for this album -- unless it was your son's wife who chose them, and then perhaps there is some discord between your son's wife and your current wife?

In any event, probably best not to make a huge deal out of this right now, BUT you probably should keep your eyes open for further signs of trouble, too.

LW3: Not a bad idea, actually, and it *may* help the husband in this case... probably worth a shot, anyway.

LW1 - Amen to what wkh, Pat, Lise and Jenna said! That MIL knows exaclty what she is doing - destroying people's lives - and she's loving every minute of it. She wants to go into people's homes and destroy their lives. And now that people keep kicking her out and no one will take her in, she's using the guilt trip of, "I'm living in a shelter. Oh, no, no...don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I don't want to be a burden!!" Yeah, right. When people continue to ignore her, she'll ramp it up. How do I know this? Because my exMIL was a BPD, narcissistic b!tch and pulled this crap all the time. Whenever people ignored her drama, she ramped it up. Went as far as to physically hurt herself. She was also out to destroy other people's happiness. She didn't put up fliers around town about me but she told anybody who would listen about "the d!rty wh0re who stole my son and is tearing the family apart!"

Before you start a family, make sure your husband is on the same page with you regarding his mother and that she will not be allowed near the kids. I also vote for moving and not giving her a forwarding address. Good luck.
LW2 - The album was a gift to you, therefore, you can do with it as you please. Take the photos of your ex-wife out and replace them in due time with photos of the baby, you and the baby, your wife and the baby, etc.

LW1--"My mother-in-law, "Mary," is a demanding, conceited, freeloading, depressed 60-year-old witch. How do we deal with her?" My first question is, why on earth would you finally dislodge this blood sucking tick only to let her move in with YOUR parents? God, do you hate your folks that much? Geesh! Your MIL seems like something straight out of the original edition of 'Grimms' Fairy Tales' and there will be absolutely no reasoning with her; no compromising with her; no changing her ways. Until the old bat keels over, she'll be the bane of your existence! Lacking the ability to banish this evil entity back to the dark dimension from which she came, my advice is for you and your husband to pack up your household and move clear across the country. Don't leave a forwarding address!

LW2--"We don't want to display an album with pictures of my ex." Then don't! If your family inquires about the album when they visit, simply say the same.

Since when are pictures of one's mother offensive to a stepmother? That's the kind of thinking that makes people dislike stepparents ya know?

I think the poster who said they simply probably spend more time with the mom is right. Also, frankly, it wouldn't even occur to me after 17 years in a subsequent marriage that my dad would care about such a thing. I think it's weird that they have been split up almost two decades and LW2 is clearly happy with his second wife and has a long strong marriage why on earth he is still harbouring resentment toward his first wife is beyond me.

And yes, it's petty. If the album was from HIS mother, it wouldn't be petty. But it's from his *son* who happens to have come from his first wife's loins. Get over it or don't divorce/marry someone who already has kids. It doesn't always have to be this way btw. For the holidays this year my teenagers decided they wanted a family pic of their ENTIRE family, so my ex and I sucked it up and got over it, and posed with smiles on with our respective spouses and all our combined kids for one giant family photo. None of us died of pride aspiration nor did my exH's second wife talk about how "disrespected" she felt. Good lord.

BTW I doubt this is a formal professional album. It's probably a book of photos developed from the pharmacy. They're trying to show pics to you and you're still making them pawns in the divorce. ~*classy*~ Why don't you go have sex with your second wife and then thank your first for leaving?

"They're trying to show pics to you and you're still making them pawns in the divorce. ~*classy*~ "

Nailed it! Let it go, LW!

Re: wkh

#10: exactly.

I dunno. If, after 17 years with the new wife, I gave my dad and his second wife a photo album filled with pictures of my mom, and none of my stepmom, I think that would be more than a little strange.

At the very least it IS insensitive and a bit clueless. Especially when I doubt that the son is unaware that the divorce was not amicable. "I do not have a good relationship with my ex-wife, who left me for another man."

Seriously, what adult child would pepper a family photo albums with pictures of the ex-wife when you have to know that the son picked up on this. And only one small picture of the woman who has been with the father for 17 years??

I think people are being a little too unsympathetic to the LW here. No, it's not the worst problem in the world, but given the circumstances described and the likelihood that the son isn't completely oblivious to the history, the ratio of pictures of the ex-wife in an album that is supposed to be a *gift* to the LW is a bit strange.

And didn't we just have a whole bunch of discussions about how the gift-giver is supposed to be thinking about what the gift-receiver would want??? Doesn't sound like the gift-giver in this case really put a lot of thought into the what the gift-receiver would think about this.

This isn't a case where the son is just showing some recent pics from his laptop on a visit to the LW, and he just happened to have a lot of pics of the mother as well. This was a gift that he spent time compiling with the idea of giving it to the LW for Christmas.

At the *very* least the LW has every right to feel uncomfortable with the choice of pictures given the history, even if I don't think the LW should make a big deal out of it.

Re: Chris
"only to let her move in with YOUR parents?"
Chris, the LW is not in control of whom her parents allow to move in with them. They're not minors under her care.

@Jenna
"Or, is Mary that conniving that she was able to convince your parents that you and your husband instigated the whole mess?
Very likely she was. As Michelle's experience has illustrated, some people are such pros at it that they turn manipulation into an art form.
And, why only two years?"
That's probably what it took for Mary to wear off her welcome!

And Mary used to work as a nurse? Yrrrch, can you imagine what she put her patients through? She must have been working at the hospital when I was taken after the accident, where I've never seen such a collection of enraged shrews.

Another zinger with the brush off to LW1 to call someone at the convinient 800 number...as if that helps. THis poor woman is not guilty or bad in admiting that "just knowing she is alive is a burden". WOnder if the Annies have experienced this level of toxicity? My family has, and the day my FIL passed away and we emotionally divirced my MIL( two year gap) were two days of exceptional freedom. People to whom you are blood related, but unwilling to recognize their level of disruption in your life , or in our case actually relished their ability to disrupt our life, are best left. Your husband is best served by moving on and creating a loving stable family of your own. My husband actually reached out to his mother 20 yrs later only to realize that we had done the absolute right thing to leave her behind. And as to tthe folks she rages to about you...hold your head high, they'll figure it out soon, and if they don't, you'll leave other toxic folks behind too if need be.

LW1 - The Annies think that the world is nothing but sweetness and light and for you to dislike your MIL is horrible...to them. They're nuts. Your MIL has wreaded enough havoc with your lives. She has all the resources available to her and refuses help. You've done what you can. Wish her the best, let the Rescue Mission know how to contact you if needed and leave it. There is nothing else you can do that is not going to just drag you down with her. Go forth and live your life. She's got a meal or two, a bed and a place to go when it's cold and maybe the mission can get her the help she needs.

Rick:

Of course the Annies haven't experienced anything difficult! They've demonstrated that numerous times. Amazing, huh? And Mary used to be a nurse? That IS scary, Lise. Eeeeek!

I'm wondering if the son with the photo album is trying to rub salt in the wound; the LW did say that his ex has bad mouthed the second wife for a long time, so that may be the explanation right there. But that would be odd, since the ex is the one who cheated in the first place. Go figure.

Re: Pat Lang
<<<My life would have been a lot less stressful had I just said, "so long and thanks for all the fish">>
I STILL miss Mr. Adams. But a very nice referral, Pat:)

To Everyone Who Slammed LW2 -- perhaps you all missed the line where the LW says that his first wife actively encouraged the children to dislike the second wife? Let's say for a second that the son intended no harm and that this is simply a reflection of the fact that the first wife (son's mother) spends more time with the son and his family than the LW does. Even if that's the case, it's all-too-possible that one of the reasons the son spends more time with his mother than with his father and step-mother is because Mom has managed to instill a heaping dose of dislike of the second wife and resentment of the father?

I have enough photos of my son (who is only six months old) to put together full albums of just him to give to his respective grandparents, if I needed to. As it happens, all of the sets of grandparents get along, so there is no need for me to go those lengths, but it would be EASY to do. Perhaps son didn't mean any harm, but honestly I have to wonder.

But, even if the son DID do this on purpose, I still basically agree with those who have advised the LW just forget about it and move on. If the son didn't do it on purpose, confronting him is only going to make him feel bad. If the son DID do it on purpose, confronting him is only going to let him know he succeeded in hitting his target. If this is the first time the son has "slighted" you and your wife, give him the benefit of the doubt and let this go unless or until he does something like this again, and then you can consider whether you want to bring this up to him. If this is just one of many slights (and I imagine it is, since you say the mother has managed to turn them against your wife, and by extension, you), just determine whether you think confronting him does more harm than good.

@Rick and jar8818 -- now, now, let us all remember that the Annies have experienced (and or are currently experiencing) menopause and the utter lack of interest in sex that inevitably results thereof. They've also experienced the cruel hardship of having very little sense.

Sad, but true: I don't read the Annies anymore because I think they offer good advice. By and large, I think they're advice is mediocre on good days. I read the Annies for the BTL!

Re: Lisa - You have a point about the menopause I suppose. I actually started reading them because I got so hooked on their horrible, short sighted and unrealistic advice. Once in a while they get it right but mostly it's for comic relief. :-)

RE Photo book. Take your photo book to a place which does photos, ask your neighbor's teckie child to help, etc. Just scan and remove who you don't want in the photo. NOT A BIG DEAL. With technology today and a computer, it takes 10 min to do a photo to make it your own. Many programs out there--most less than $100. I have been cutting people and things out of my photos for over a decade--digital lets you do anything and a good scanner is a great tool to have.
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LW1: This mother in law from hell needs to be stopped in her boots. She is a mentally ill person. She aknowledges it by saying she is DEPRESSED. We all get a day when we are BLUE. Not the same as depression. TRUE Depression can be fixed with time, counseling, medications. Mental illness takes it another step and needs professionals and possibly hospitalizations. This lady sounds like this is her direction.
You can get help from social services to direct you if needed. Your public health can also be of assistance. All sorts of programming out there. Maybe her work place saw this coming too. You can get a court order to help carry out your steps if necessary. MN has passed laws which make it easier for mental help to be done. Her simply pasting flyers all over town would get her a 72 hr evaluation in the local mental health unit of the hospital. Keep a diary, times, dates, things done. Great if you can have a wittness to verify it too.
This is more than the M-I-L from hell. She may be in her own personal hell and can't find the way out.
Why did your parents take her in and not do anything to help her? This too is evidence for the court to slap mama with the help she needs.
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LW3: Any adult--male or female--that profess not to know how to take care of the kitchen utensils, anything else in the house belongs in a secured ward with the food channel one 24/7 till they finally get it. I am sorry, when my 5 yr old grandchildren get it, adults just don't get the pass.
Like yesterday with conversation about the iron skillet. There are idiots and morons. And then there are people who are truely mentally and physically handicapped. My brother was of the latter list. And he knew what the cookware was about.

Lisa:

Bitey would be proud of you!! <:-))))))>-<

(I like the BTL better too, maybe we should advertise?)

LW2 - Either your son is dense, insensitive or both but in any case it is what it is and after 17 years, yes, you need to get over it. This about your new grandbaby not you, not your ex.

Re: Lisa

Actually it was that comment ("Over the years, she has encouraged our children to dislike my current wife, to whom I have been married for 17 years and who helped raise my kid"s.") that made me comment the way that I did.

The LW clearly dislikes his ex wife and IMO has never "forgiven" her for leaving him for another man (just about the worst thing in many men's eyes that a woman can do). In my post, I noted he recovered pretty quickly to get married so quickly HIMSELF (he married a year after the divorce).

We don't really know what's going on here: how far has the LW "raised" his kids (weekends? 100% of the time?), what type of participation has HE had in this feud ("Your mom is a slut, she left us all for another man") that may have encouraged his wife to respond in kind ("Your father is a loser and I had to leave him").

But the fact of the matter is that NONE of that matters. He has grandkids now, he's going to drag the next generation into his fragile ego-driven battle? For goodness sakes, LW! Grow up and MOVE ON. If you dont' want to look at the pictures of your ex, DON'T! Take new ones, photoshop your ex out... who the heck cares!? Just don't involve your grandchildren in this stuff.

PS: If you ex is still trashing you, LW, do you really want to sink to her level by giving her fuel for her fire? Because that's what you will do if you confront your son on this.

@Rick, love it: "Either your son is dense, insensitive or both" -- pithy and to the point!

@ Mike H: "...after 17 years with the new wife, I gave my dad and his second wife a photo album filled with pictures of my mom, and none of my stepmom, I think that would be more than a little strange."
Couldn't have said it better myself. My parents have been divorced for a very long time, both remarried for a very long time. I would NEVER give either parent a photo album gift filled with pictures of their former spouse. Now, if there was one or two random pictures that happened to have the other parent in it, that would be no big deal. But if you are making a gift, generally you are thinking of what would please the recipient, right? And I just can't see how either parent would get any pleasure out of having an album full of pictures of the other. And my parents don't have bad feelings for each other.
Yea, I think it's weird the son did it, and it seems like it was an intended slight. Or he's really very clueless.

@ Mike H: I agree 100% with you.

I might be a little annoyed at one or two photos, but, cripes. My husband's daughter has more than enough photos of her children without their grandmother that we have never received a gift of a photo with the grandmother in it..... and the grandmother lived next door to the grand kids. She was spending a lot of time with them.

The message the son was sending to the step mother was, "You have no place in this family."

LW: Over the next year, accumulate a lot of pictures of yourself and your wife with your grandson. Around Christmas time, give your son a new photo album book with the pictures you have taken over the last year. If asked, say that you were so inspired by the album that he gave you last year that you wanted a stab at making your own.

More and more these days, photo albums are put together online, printed by the company and delivered by mail or shipping company. It is entirely possible the pages of the album are printed all in one piece. Ask for the login info and put together your own album, (unless the ex owns the account.)

LW3: I agree about teaching children how to cook. As a single dad for most of his childhood, I taught my son well, and he is very self-sufficient.
But the fact that you suggest that the original letter writer "insist" that her husband sits in, shows what kind of relationship you have (or had) with your husband. My wife and I would never "insist" upon anything. We talk things out sensitive to each others feelings. Your poor husband must either be a mouse ... or you're divorced.

@nanchan -- we really agree on this one, because even after I defended the LW, I still said he needed to move on, regardless of whether the son did it on purpose or not, etc. I just wanted to note that some folks were really quick to jump on LW2, and I just wanted to suggest that he may have good reason to feel slighted, insulted or what have you. But regardless of how he feels, the best course of action is almost certainly to just let it go.

And you are so right -- as usual, there's a lot more to this story that we're not getting. Lots of details, nuances and flat-out facts that we don't have that could have added more shades and levels to the advice.

I guess none of us should be at all surprised that the vitriol from that divorce is leeching its way into the third generation. Clearly, the LW and/or his first wife saw nothing wrong with using their children as pawns and weapons in their battle, so why should we be surprised that those now-adult children may well be using their own children in a similar fashion? And, if the son's move was unintended, then why should we be surprised that the LW still perceives it that way? Sad all the way around.

LW1 -- I will not condemn for "typing out loud" how you really feel about your MIL. There are people who are so difficult and toxic that even just knowing they still exist is a burden. It's not polite to say and can certainly get you in a lot of trouble. But I'm betting, since you even took the time to write, "awful as it sounds," that you are WELL AWARE of that and that you have NOT said this to anyone except in an anonymous letter to an advice column. Assuming that's the case, you did not deserve to be slapped for that. These anonymous forums are the perfect place to get this kind of thing off your chest without doing any real damage.

I honestly don't know enough about NAMI to know whether contacting them is going to do you any good, but I suppose it can't do any harm. If nothing else, you might get a more sympathetic ear than you did from the Annies, and it sounds like you could use it.

And sure, she may be mentally ill -- but then again, I think anyone who is toxic like this HAS to be mentally ill in some fashion. But there are different types of "illness" out there, most of which, I am sure, should be addressed with compassion. But there are some that no amount of compassion is helpful. After all, I have to think most serial killers are mentally ill in some fashion, too, right? I am honestly not likening "Mary" to Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm just saying there are all sorts of levels of mental illness and toxicity, and contacting NAMI isn't going to cut it with all of them. Any woman who essentially blames decades of depression on the birth of her son may well be mentally ill, but people who are depressed -- even clinically depressed -- without any OTHER type of mental illness mixed in are not usually toxic like this. Perhaps Mary is depressed, as she says -- but she's probably got some other, more toxic illness mixed in there (narcissism sounds like a good bet to me, but I am just a lay person, and even full-blown psychiatrist can't diagnose from a letter like this). At some point, you have to put compassion aside and just fend for yourself, and that's where you are, LW 1.

The good news is, it sounds like you and your husband are already on the same page. But just to be totally sure of this, sit down with your husband and talk with him about your concerns related to starting a family while this woman is still in your lives, even if only on the periphery. Is he prepared to cut her out of your lives entirely? Are you both prepared to deal with the censure from friends/family/acquaintances who are still in touch with Mary? Others have suggested you move -- and if you can, go for it. But if you can't, just make sure both of you are on the same page and prepared for the fallout when you cut her off for good.

@Shannon, that's a fantastic suggestion -- and it allows the LW to take some action without having to confront the son head-on and without making a big deal about how he feels about the current present.

Re: kristen
I suspect that the son DID put a lot of thought into the gift, carefully choosing pictures that would please the recipient...his mother. And then decided that if they give one to her, they better give one to dad as well, and were either too lazy, or possibly too malicious, to take the time to swap out the pictures and order two albums. Or maybe he got a 2-for-1 deal, but the books had to be identical. So he designed it for his mom and then gave one to dad as well.
Considering that there are many pictures of his mom and only one small one of dad and step-mom, I have to think it was deliberate.
Rude, for sure, but I wouldn't even mention it. Just put the book away and display a framed photo (or many of them) of his own side of the family with the baby.

OFF TOPIC ALERT!
If a person waits almost ten minutes for a parking spot, spotting the driver of the car getting off the elevator and heading toward their car, are they "entitled" to that parking spot?
I watched a woman get off the elevator, I was just outside the glass enclosure separating the elevator lobby from the rest of the parking garage. I backed up and followed her to her car which was two spaces behind me. She was laden with bags and scowled at me so I backed up one more spot so I was out of her line of sight. But still one spot away from this impending vacancy. No other cars were there.
After about 5 minutes, six cars begin circling and the other drivers are instantly annoyed with me, they are giving me rolled eyes, scowling, and the stink-eye. I know they were miffed because they knew I was there first and this was a really good parking space. While waiting, I made sure I did not block anyone from getting around me. Two other cars put on their blinkers waiting for the spot but turned them off and left when I put mine on and rolled down my window and waived at them and pointed at myself, meaning, "I was here first!"
The driver exiting the parking space finally decided she could not out-wait me and started backing out. An SUV was directly across from the spot and they had been waiting there for maybe a minute. You guessed it, she took the parking spot I had been waiting ten minutes for.
When the woman parked and got out of the car, I walked up to her and said, "you need to back up, I waited for this spot for ten minutes!" and the woman said, "I been waiting ten minutes!"
"NO" I said, "you were there maybe a minute" and the lady said, "YOU NO HERE! I didn't see you waiting!" and I said I was there when the driver got off the elevator and there weren't any other cars around. She then said, "you no have you blinker on!, I did, I get this space. World don't owe you parking spot!"
That's when I lost it and called her a F$#@^%& *itch! "you said you didn't see me? so how do you know my blinker wasn't on?"
Then the lady said, "it my parking spot, you word against mine!" and then stomped off. I yelled, "what comes around goes around" and then she turned and said, "TO YOU!" and I hollered, "No! To YOU *itch!"
A. I am not proud of myself for yelling or using profanities.
B. In a small underground parking garage, it is overwhelming to have the blinker flashing for ten minutes. Not fair to other drivers in my estimation. But is that the only way to signal to others you are waiting for a spot?
C. In the future, the company managing the parking garage wants anyone who has this happen to them, come and report it to them. They will "ticket" the driver and that means the person pays the fine or they can't park with that car in the garage again, or they face another fine.
D. There are cameras everywhere and the only time they run into blind spots is when HUGE SUV's park incorrectly and block the camera's. When the company is given the times and the place this happened, they can go back and look at what happened. I told the truth and had no doubt what the cameras would show, it wouldn't come down to "her word against mine".
E. Everyone has had this happen to them at one time or another, for me, it has never been this blatant and the woman in question was between 50-60, with a strong accent, and clearly didn't care about what she had just done, taken a parking space because she could.
F. I didn't touch her car. No "keying" the paint, letting the air out of the tires or peeing on the bumper. Women can't easily pee on car door handles or mirrors anyway.
G. Other drivers witnessed my rage and looked at me like, "Gad, get it together lady!" They didn't know how many times I'd been "pushed" and harshed on by other people that morning. The other driver simply taking the parking spot I had been waiting for sent me over the edge.
H. Is this a racial or age thing? This woman was an immigrant to the US and possibly has a more, "survival of the first and meanest" type of mentality. I don't know, you tell me.
Thank you. I feel much better now.

Re: Chelle
Seriously?
I hate it when people do that, especially when the lot isn't completely full. It I had been the one you followed, I probably would have put my bags in the car, waited awhile and then gone back inside. You may have been over far enough that other drivers can get past you, but that means they have topass you without seeing if someone is already pulling out, greatly increasing the odds of a collision.
To each their own, and if you want to sit and wait forever like that, you certainly can. Personally, I prefer to just find an open spot, even if it's a little further away, and get my shopping, or whatever, done. It is kind of crappy that somebody slipped in their ahead of you, but at the same time, I would find it rather amusing after you annoyed everyone else by sitting there like that. I don't know what the management company would "ticket" someone for in that case. It doesn't sound like they were driving in a way to present a hazard, and while it may be a courtesy to leave the spot for someone waiting, there are no "squatter's rights". And I doubt that the eye-rolling from other drivers was out of envy. I suspect pure annoyance.
I'm sorry you had a bad morning. But I completely agree with those other drivers.

Sorry...you asked.

Chelle – Sorry you had a bad morning. I don't like some parking lots (avoid them at all costs, actually), some you just have to go to. At Christmas shopping time I won't go at all (hubby drives me to the door, and picks me up when I call him). Many people go through the frustrations of finding a parking spot during busy shopping times, or limited parking spots; you happened to have had a bad day prior to the event, and instead of shrugging off the incident, just snapped (don't blame you, by the way). Who knows whether it was a racial or age thing? I was thinking bad manners (her day was more important than yours), but in the end, the only thing you can do is let it go. Don't let her actions ruin the rest of your day :)

Re: Chelle
I responded about a half hour ago, and it still isn't showing up. Oh well. Basically, I said I agree with those other drivers witnessing your rage...get it together.

I'm sorry you have had a bad morning, but if you seriously think that strangers need to accommodate you because of it, well...wow. Maybe you should go home and start the day over.

@Chelle, that's why I hate crowded parking lots, and I almost always will just take the first open spot no matter how far away it is -- because I can't stand the way people fight for parking spots. I'd rather park in the furthest spot in the lot and walk the extra minute than get into a stand-off with other drivers for a more choice spot, especially when people can react just like this woman acted to you. It's just not worth it for my blood pressure!

So sorry you had to deal with this, it must have been frustrating. No, I don't think it's age or race, I've seen it happen more than once with younger or middle-aged white adults myself. I think it's just part of the thing that happens when people get behind the wheel -- it makes a lot of people more aggressive somehow. In parking lots, on the roads, on the highways... people act in ways they wouldn't normally if they weren't in a car!

@Chelle, that's why I hate crowded parking lots, and I almost always will just take the first open spot no matter how far away it is -- because I can't stand the way people fight for parking spots. I'd rather park in the furthest spot in the lot and walk the extra minute than get into a stand-off with other drivers for a more choice spot, especially when people can react just like this woman acted to you. It's just not worth it for my blood pressure!

So sorry you had to deal with this, it must have been frustrating. No, I don't think it's age or race, I've seen it happen more than once with younger or middle-aged white adults myself. I think it's just part of the thing that happens when people get behind the wheel -- it makes a lot of people more aggressive somehow. In parking lots, on the roads, on the highways... people act in ways they wouldn't normally if they weren't in a car!

Lise:

Again, I realize your experiences have played its role in your comments on letters like this – the "she's a narcisstic you-know-what" and all, but I again disagree and will side with the Annies on this one regarding whether she is mentally ill. She IS mentally ill, and as you state, she is one who is refusing to acknowledge it ... so she digs in deeper when asked to confront it.

I'm sure you have heard of involuntary committal. That might be what works best for her, and a mental hospital may be best where she can let it all out – so that people who are paid to hear her talk and moan about her problems can help her. Whether she can change or not is up to her. And frankly, stats are full of baloney. You might have your situation dealing with people like this woman, but that's your situation.

Locating out of state is plain cruel, IMO. Sure, keep your distance and socialize only when necessary, but to locate out of state is the ultimate in cruelty, IMO. Sorry, in this case, Gorilla Monsoon, turnabout is NOT fair play ... turning the other cheek is.

Thank you Mike H. and I normally do as well, but in this case, the parking garage was completely full and there were NO spots anywhere. I had a small window of time to get my errands done and since I was PATIENTLY waiting and not in anyone's way, I am having trouble with the nastiness displayed.

Jenna, thank you, I don't think I will ever go back into that parking garage ever again.

I don't expect strangers to "accommodate" me based on information they can't possibly know.

Shirley, you need to call yourself "Peaches" because you are a real treat. Hope that works for ya!

Re: Chris

Regarding your remarks on LW1: Move across the country? Really? That is so cruel, no matter how bad the mother's illness is.

The mother doesn't control anyone's lives, the children's, the in laws, nobody's. Like I said, the choice can be to put up with mother or simply ignore her. You need not move out of state, or frankly, move at all to do that.

If she shows up, tell her we appreciate your visit, but were busy and need our time alone and close the door. If she persists in showing up, call the police. You have every right to a peaceful home ... and you can get that by staying in your home. (I doubt things are that bad that anyone needs to feel compelled to move far away, just to get away from batty-old-mom.)

Shirley, I think you're right on LW2. He even admitted it was possible his ex-wife put the album together herself. I think that's actually a probability; it sounds like something a doting grandmother would do for the baby's parents. Who then thought, "isn't this cute?" and got a deal on ordering MORE of existing albums. So rather than go through and look through all their shots to compile a new album, they went with what was existing.

(And Lisa, I know you have that many shots of your baby. Not all of us are so photographically talented -- yes, even with point and shoot digitals! Even if they are, depending on their household set up and personalities (both parents working full-time? baby often ill? Not particularly creative?) they might find the idea of putting together such an album more daunting than fulfilling. I STILL have boxes of old shots of my kids, who are almost all young adults now!)

I'd give this a pass, in absence of more damning evidence.

Re: Chelle

Yes, I think you acted inappropriately.

"They didn't know how many times I'd been "pushed" and harshed on by other people that morning. " Oh yay. So now that gives you the right to lash out at people after you yourself, in my opinion, didn't act appropriately?

I was taught that if the car you are waiting for isn't out of the space in a reasonable amount of time (NOT ten minutes, more like 2 or 3: time for the driver of the parked car to put on their seatbelt and get situated and the car to warm up) then you relinquish your place in line. What if the driver of the car had been on the phone (I do that quite bit, don't like to drive and talk on the phone) or had simply been rearranging bags and was getting ready to go to another store? During that time, even if you didn't feel you were blocking traffic, you WERE inconveniencing people and putting people at risk by forcing cars to go around YOU. Just so you can have a great parking space. How selfish is that?

You NOT having a blinker on was also not correct, whether or not you think it's annoying. First of all, if you are waiting long enough for the blinker to BE annoying, you are waiting too long and should have just found another space. Second of all, there was no indication to the "immigrant" of what your intentions were. For all SHE knew, you were waiting for someone to come out of a store (Jenna's point) or even that you may have had car problems. If she was there for longer than 30 seconds, you should have taken THAT opportunity to put on your blinkers.

You shouting at that woman (regardless of who started it) and using foul language and then making it into racial/immigration status issue is beyond what I am going to comment on except to say that the fact that you wrote that at all had to take guts.

All in all was it worth it just to be closer to the store? Go have a bubble bath, a glass of wine or whatever you do to relax and start over tomorrow. Holy cow. People get SCARED of people like you and if I had been the woman who you shouted profanity at, you well could have been dealing with a police officer and not posting it on Creators.

@ Bobaloo

Yeah, seriously! You want to talk about cruelty? The LW is claiming this "sick" woman is hanging harassing fliers all over town. She bad mouths the LW at every turn. On top of that, this woman demands to be treated like royalty. Obviously she'll stop at nothing to get her way and the bottom line is that the LW and her family are miserable. While my statement to move across the country was an example of absurdity (look it up) getting as far away from this MIL from hell as possible isn't such a bad idea when you put things into perspective.

LW1:
GEEZ BTL people!!! What is up with inappropriately ragging on the Annie's again? From wkh, Lise B, and on. Nowhere do the Annie's say ANYTHING about helping the MIL or anything else of the nature. Please actually read what they wrote.

They said to contact NAMI. Nothing else. NAMI might help them understand that it's OK to turn their back on the MIL, who is clearly mentally ill. To reduce the stress in the LWs life, the answer is to find out how to deal with mentally ill people, which can't be done in one paragraph. Emphatically telling the LW to stay away from the MIL is of no help whatsoever, people. She already wants that. She needs to find out HOW to accomplish it.

With the couple sentences they are alloted, the Annie's not only did the best they could, they nailed it. AGAIN.

LW1: Sounds like whatever can be done for the disruptive mom is being done--if she has a state-supplied therapist, and is living in a shelter, that's about as good as it gets under the circumstances. By this time, anybody who knows this lady ought to know not to believe her. If asked, the DIL can say that "I wish I could help her, but it simply isn't possible." And moving if possible probably isn't a bad idea. I've dealt with clinically depressed in-laws,and had to help get a SIL hospitalized, and she can be incredibly annoying but not malicious--and that was difficult.
Parking: I got the impression that there not many parking spots available, which explains the wait and the emotional levels. I once had a similar situation that turned out better: I was looking for a downtown street parking space in Seattle years ago, saw up coming up and slid into it. When I got out of the car, I heard yelling from across the street: "You dirty so-and-so (he really did say "so-and-so" not swear words), I was trying to get at that space! You stole my parking space!" It was my brother!

Re: Bobaloo

I agree with you that the LW shouldn't give the MIL anymore control than she already has by allowing her to dictate where people should live.

Maybe Chris really meant "Move out of her state of mind"? Now, that's a state I'd never want to live in!

Re: Steve C - " We were sympathetic until you said that "knowing she is still living is a burden." is not nailing it. The rest was good but the first sentence was not necessary. Walk a mile is their shoes and all that.

Chelle,the other person was in the wrong. I wouldn't want to encounter anybody who could get you to curse them out.

Partsmom, I like that outcome a lot better!

That sounded like the parking garage from "Seinfeld."

LW1: The best thing you can do for yourself and your husband is pretend she is already dead. If she comes around - get a restraining order. In fact, if you can do it - move and don't tell her where. Also, you can't control her but you can control how you react to her. Stop giving her so much power.

LW2: I agree with the Annies - he's probably too stupid and thoughtless to have done that on purpose.

LW1: After asking her MIL to leave LW1 is now asking advice what to do with her MIL. Is it guilty conscience speaking here? Not sure whose problem is it..Everyone has taken action here. MIL is out of the house and MIL is complaining to the world about her son and DIL. It seems that LW1's husband is her only son and somehow people are sympathizing with the MIL. Sorry LW1, even if you wish with all your heart your MIL will not disappear. You will have to find peace within yourself.
LW2: Go ahead and tell your son how you feel. A complaint made nicely should not do harm and at the least he would know how you feel.

@Nanchan: I should have used the word, "Cultural" only. Whether or not the other driver was here legally or illegally is of no concern to me. This is not a racial issue; I noted she wasn't from here and anyone else would have noticed the same. And I did not call her racial names, I used the standard profanity.

With people who immigrate, there are customs and behaviors that go along with each. When leaving a country, a person brings these with them, and with some human beings, their language and their physical appearance are plain to see and it's easy to deduce they are not from here.

I have friends from all over the world. I have never called anyone a racial name or taunted someone. In this case, I got really really mad and did something I regret. If I ever see her again, I will apologize for calling her an effing *itch at the top of my lungs.

The police officer I talked with last night told me he would have understood my anger, AND number one, as long as I didn't threaten her or her car, number two, there was no physical assault, and number 3, as long as I was calm when he was there, he would NOT have given me a ticket for yelling, but he would have kicked us BOTH out of the parking garage or face a towing and/or tickets.

He also said not wanting to let someone (who has been waiting) have a parking space is petty and immature. Additionally, he thought the idea that waiting more than a minute for a space and then it's a free-for-all was ASININE and would only lead to more police calls. "If people were nicer to each other, more considerate, half my workload would disappear" is what he said. He wasn't happy with me for yelling profanities, and advised me never to do it again, you never know when someone else is carrying a gun and is more than willing to use it, under any circumstances. Shot over a parking space is not what I want on my tombstone.

Prior to this, when people would follow me to my car, I would wave to them and motion to which way I was headed, especially if I was a few rows over.

I have decided not to ever use the parking garage again.

And I'm surprised at you nanchan, you're usually kinder than this.

Re: Shannon
"A stab", hee hee hee, that's a good way to put it!

@Shirley & Lisa
"Or maybe he got a 2-for-1 deal, but the books had to be identical. So he designed it for his mom and then gave one to dad as well."
Very possible. In which case he should have designed it to be neutral to both women (no picture with either of them in it), or annoying to both of them equally, with an equal number of pictures featuring each woman. But I still think the LW should let it go. As Lisa aptly said, "If the son didn't do it on purpose, confronting him is only going to make him feel bad. If the son DID do it on purpose, confronting him is only going to let him know he succeeded in hitting his target." So it's pointless to address it either way.

@Chelle
You may have acted "inappropriately" by losing it, but it was under due provocation... That woman acted far more inappropriately than you did and deserved every four-letter word you called her.

This being stated, there ARE some people for whom the profanity user is ALWAYS in the wrong, no matter what happened. They hear the F-bomb and their delicate little ears not only hear nothing else afterwards, but it erases everything that went on before. Just so you're aware of that.

That woman was a first class b*tch and into your face, as in, "I don't give a **** that you were here first, I'll take the space because I want it and ****you." Having this done to you is extremely upsetting and I can't blame you for losing it, especially if this came on the tail of an already bad day. However, be aware that you never know who you're dealing with and how dangerous they potentially are. Just because she's obviously immigrant and middle-aged doesn't mean she's not armed...

I remember calling the public transport company to complain about the extremely provocative and into-the-face attitude and behaviour of a specific bus driver and telling them, one of these days, he'll do that to the wrong person and end up at the hospital or the morgue. Whether the person flipping out on someone is in the right or in the wrong changes nothing to the fact that you can never be sure you're not flying in the face of someone armed to the teeth and with a "make my day" attitude.

Like I said, I can't blame you for being so livid that you couldn't control yourself, but try to think about this. Try to see it as a warning not to put yourself in danger again. And I understand about the prime parking spot but... next time, take another one, even if it's a lot less convenient, or circle around of there is nothing available - it's safer.

P.S.:
I wouldn't think it has to do with racism or age - just plain selfishness and boorishly bad manners. All races, genders and ages are capable of that. I'll not start extrapolating as to which ones are capable less or more... THAT would be racism/ageism ! ;-D

@Bobaloo
You do realise you're the only one, apart from Steve C, who came to the defense of the Annies on that? I will assume that YOUR experiences don't include dealing with someone that toxic. Turning the other cheek for more abuse indeed. Having a poster campaign is not bad enough, let's have her ask for even worse! That is NOT what you will say if you're subjected to the same, which you clearly have not been. They would have grounds to sue the hateful, crazy nutcase (and I'm being polite here), which is probably what you would do too.

As for involuntary commital, it would be the perfect solution indeed but, only if it could be permanent and, as MIke H pointed out, getting her commited against her will is not as easy as that. Criteria will vary from place to place but, in my neck of the wood, narcissistic and bitchy behaviour doesn't qualify unless she becomes a clear PHYSICAL danger to herself and others. And even then, the confinement is very unlikely to be for very long. The same thing goes about your suggestion to Chris that the police be called. Sorry but, unless she's a clear and immediate physical threat, the police have other things to do but to be evicting obnoxious individuals from people's homes. You are being extremely, rosily unrealistic.

You also DO realise, I hope, that in spite of that nasty little jab about "my experiences", all the posters who did have a brush-in with other such Marys agree with me?

P.S.: Frankly, how can getting her involuntarily committed be any less "cruel'" than for her victims to merely remove themselves from her toxicity? You're not making a lick of sense. And if you think things can never be "that bad" as to compel someone to move clear across the country, you should be thankful that your "experiences" have not taught you otherwise instead of being judgmental. My sister-cousin moved from Montreal to Vancouver and lived there for ten years, to escape both her ex and her mother and trust me, it WAS "that bad".

@Steve C
The LW has already stated the woman has doctors and therapists provided by the state. She made herself homeless by letting go, ALL ON HER OWN, of her home. She's made herself dependent by quitting her job all on her own and refusing to claim disability. I don't see how NAMI can do much for someone who refuses to help herself, so that piece of advice fell way short.

And it was the only advice they provided, the rest was passing judgment on the LW for the way she felt. Considering Mary's behaviour and the thanks the LW and her husband got for their kindness, they have already been compassionate and helpful way beyond the call of duty - being blood-related isn't a pass for anything and everything. The Annies should try taking Mary in if they feel so sorry for her.

Thank you Michael, I am really upset over this and trying to make sense of it.

Michael, I wrote a response that said "Thank you" for your helpful words, but it hasn't shown up yet. I'm still upset over this and still working through it.

Lise, Thank you also.

Re: Chelle

In rebuttal.

I never accused you of calling the other driver a racial slur, but you definately brought it the issue of the other driver being an immigrant up HERE which to me is just as bad as if you had said it to her face.

When you are that angry/frustrated/pissed off at the world, you should NOT be behind the wheel. I'm sorry if you think I'm being unkind about this, and you can join the "Let's beat up on nanchan" committee here but I don't CARE.

Whenever anyone acts the way that you did yesterday, even though you were out of your car, it contributes to the whole road rage thing. I come from a part of the country where people have been known to be SHOT for what you did yesterday. You put yourself in danger, you put other people in danger. What if that "immigrant" woman had been some gang banger? With a GUN?

All you had to do was find another parking space, walk the extra 15 feet and MOVE ON. To blame the parking lot is ridiculous. YOU are to blame because you overreacted and now you want everyone to tell you that what you did was right? To shout obscenities at someone? To hog the road because you had to prove your point?

I don't care if you like me or not for my opinion, I won't say you're right. You were WRONG. You should just admit it and move on. And DON"T accuse people as being unkind because they speak/write the truth. You even know it. I'm surprised you came here for support, but even more surprised by my "fellow" posters who would rip you to shreds if they didn't know who you are, but since they know you, they are somehow trying to justify your innappropriate actions.

Last comment on this one.

Last time I'm going to comment:

Nobody here "justified" my actions. I certainly didn't. I was wrong and I said so. And two wrongs DON'T make a right. I WAS WRONG TO YELL OBSCENITIES. WRONG WRONG WRONG. And I said that in my first post.

You wrote: "All you had to do was find another parking space, walk the extra 15 feet and MOVE ON."

There were NO open parking spaces. Nobody was leaving. The line of cars to get out of the garage and go up to the other floors was ten cars long. Since I could not get out anyway,I went around the rows to look for a space. I would have happily walked 100 feet if it meant getting a parking spot, I prefer it even.

And I didn't HOG the road to prove my point, I wanted the spot I waited for. Apparently that's unforgivable.

I was surprised that the woman getting off the elevator had a space that was six feet behind me. That's right, I was right there, when Ms. Pissy Pants got off the elevator. I waved and smiled at her only to have her glare back at me. No other drivers were around me at the time. Five minutes later, that's when six cars converged at once.

Once I moved, believe me, there were at least five cars who would have waited where I did. Believe it or not, I don't have the attitude of "If I can't have it, NOBODY can". If I had that attitude, I would have hit the spot stealer's car with mine. And I didn't do that. Watch "Fried Green Tomatoes".

The next time you come out of a mall and go to your car, is it really so awful to be nice to someone who would like to park in the space you are vacating? Especially if there doesn't seem to be any parking spots available? Big clue, when coming out the doors, there are many cars slowly inching their way through the rows everywhere.

I am responsible for my own actions. And when you read my posts above, that apparently wasn't clear to you.
Also, how many 50-60 year old woman gang bangers do you know?!

What on earth has happened to you recently, who pissed in your cornflakes?

@Chelle, just remember, for any of the commenters here -- they are speaking their opinion, what they may THINK is the truth, but they could very easily be wrong, even the most certain and firm in their opinion. Don't take anything too personally, this was your experience, obviously you know better than any of us what really happened.

This was clearly a very upsetting situation, and hopefully you'll never find yourself in a similar situation in the future. Only you can decide what you want to change, or not, with how you might handle something like this should it happen again.

You're only human; and every single one of us on this board has done things we're not proud of, been rude when we shouldn't have been, or been frustrated and done something "in the moment" that we later wish we had done differently.

For myself, I long ago accepted there are some things out of my control, and that includes how other people react in situations like jockeying for parking spaces. I try to see situations like that as exercises in patience, taking a few deep breaths, and relaxing, although I'm not always successful.

Re: Mike H ~~ Bitey Fish has never done things that Bitey was not proud of.

There is a "Let's beat up on nanchan" committee now? Sorry, but... Hee hee hee ho ho ho HAW HAW HAW HAW, ROTFLMAO!

OMG, I'm wheezing now... (trying to catch up and wiping the laugh tears from my eyes) Nanchan, nanchan, nanchan, you are the QUEEN of projection!

@Bitey, but you're a Piranha, not a human, so you are naturally exempted from my comment to Chelle, of course!

Plus, Mike H would very much like to stay on Bitey's good side. Not to say you have a bad side, Bitey -- every side of yours is a good side!

Re: Chelle

No, when "you are that angry/frustrated/pissed off at the world, you should NOT be behind the wheel". You should just sit yourself comfortably in your chair, go online and just rip someone to shreds! ;-D

you guys!

Mentally, I'm in a much better place now. Everyone in the world is much safer now.

I'm going to buy a lottery ticket because Bitey Fish posted today! If I win, Lise, I'll buy you a house with your very own parking space!

Re: Chelle ~~~ And what does Bitey Fish get if you win the lottery?

Re: Chelle
Ooooh, that would be nice! And my moronic landlord would be tickled pinck, I'd be leaving!

@Bitey
I nice set of gold teeth in case yours wear off?

@bitey, How about a troll? I know one that is between 50 - 60, she's a minority and I bet she has a good diet. Not too thin, not too fat and seems to be fairly healthy, sounds good?

Chelle, I'm glad you're feeling better today.

Does Bitey Fish get a huge bottle of Pepto Bismol with the troll?

Bitey would rather have a lifetime subscription to National Geographic (the special waterproof edition).

You got it bitey.

Re: Chelle ~~ Bitey Fish says thank you. . . and Bitey Fish hastens to remind everyone that Bitey reads National Geographic for the fascinating articles. Bitey never EVER looks at the photos of plump, succulent hippopotamuses!

Hope you got what you wanted, Chelle. In my opionion, you still acted like a total B!tch. And how do you know what woman whatever age is packing or not.

I hope you don't have to learn the hard way that you shouldn't act that way.

Piranha: bite yourself after you drink all the vodka in your stupid tank. Frankly, you have no humor anymore. It used to be cute... now you just look like a bottom feeder......

nanchan,sure, plenty of people SHOULD have learned a while ago that the way they act in public (real life or internet) isn't really appropriate.

HINT, HINT.

@Bitey Fish - I think you are hilarious. Your posts always make me laugh!

@Chelle - When people are attacking you, please consider the source. When someone is repeatedly nasty to other posters, makes it their business to bully people of whom they are jealous, and is general self-righteous and judgemental, why waste a moment of thought on what that person has to say? Many of us having been enjoying reading your posts for more than a year and are pretty sure we know what type of person you are, and like you.

Re: nanchan
Will you stop banging Chelle over the head already?

She has already admitted that what she did was wrong. What more is she supposed to do, cover her head with ash and awlk around in a sack-cloth? And BTW, I was the first one to point out to her that you never know who you have in front of you and that she could have run into someone dangerous. Proof is - at first we all thought your were nice and insighful.

Potty mouthed, I am? I much prefer someone (occasionall) potty mouthed than someone (consistently) hostile. I guess now we can expect you to start distributing compliments ("Fantastic post!") and try to get buddy-buddy with some posters to get them to like you!

I wonder if YOU'll ever learn that you yourself "shouldn't act that way".

What Nannychanny means is that it was funny when Bitey Fish bit someone else, but it isn't funny when Bitey Fish bites Nannychanny. Boo hoo hoo.

Re: sharnee ~~ Bitey Fish wuvs you. And Bitey Fish also thinks Bitey Fish is hilarious <:-D)))>-<