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Baby Makes Flee
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Witchful Thinking
I'm a retired pastor in my 50s. A nearby church wanted my help with their Christmas musical, and I asked my wife of five years, who played bass at my church, to join me. She became angry at this suggestion and said I should do my own thing on Christmas and she'd do hers. She then announced that she'd be spending Christmas Eve with her (single, lonely) ex-boyfriend, staying the night at his place and hiking with him on Christmas Day. I was taken aback. I said this had the "whiff of adultery" and wondered if she wanted to end the marriage. She flew into a rage. How could I even think of calling her an adulteress, etc.? Their overnight got canceled because his son came home for Christmas, but she's still mad — barely talking to or looking at me. I confess, I'm a conflict avoider and in counseling for it. But what do I do about a woman whose rage can last for several hours to a month or more? Who gives me lengthy, pedantic lectures about how pathetic and hopeless I am? If I say "Then why don't you leave me?" she says "Because I love you." — Stuck
Your wife has some creative interpretations of classic Christmas songs: "I'll be home for Christmas"? Naw. "You'll be home for Christmas, and I'll be sleeping over at my ex-boyfriend's." Question this in the slightest and the burning smell will be your chestnuts roasting over an open fire.
First, the obvious: Unless there's some previously agreed-upon "interesting" marital arrangement, wives do not get to have ex-boyfriend sleepovers. As for a pastor's wife picking Christmas for hers, what's the matter, was he busy on your wedding anniversary?
A "love" like hers sends chills down a man's spine — that is, when the man happens to have one. Did you forget yours at the airport? Maybe leave it at a hotel? Although your wife is engaging in outrageous emotional abuse, your reaction — your fear of her rage, which she uses to control you and get her way — is what keeps it going. You might have had a different relationship dynamic (or a different woman altogether) if only you'd put your foot down — stood up to her instead of always lying down and rolling over so she could better kick you in the head.
You should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy," by reformed doormat Dr. Robert Glover. Glover lays out how conflict-avoidant men go limp in the face of abuse because of their approval-seeking (driven by low self-worth and fear of abandonment) and their hiding of flaws and mistakes (instead of accepting themselves as fallible and human). Transforming oneself from a chewtoy among men doesn't happen overnight. Until you build self-respect, act like somebody who has it. Set standards for how you'll be treated, and inform your exploding wife that you expect them to be met (which may take anger management), and tell her that you'll walk if the rage and unloving treatment continue. And mean it. So, if she wants to have a little overnight with her ex, tell her that's her prerogative — when your divorce is final. Remember, you're never too old to be happy, and to instill healthy behavior, and to have something a little warmer and sexier at Christmas than a lecture about what a pathetic loser you are under the mistletoe.
Baby, I Need Your Oven
I love good food and wine, but I hate cooking and I'm bad at it. When you're dating, it seems like you're supposed to cook your partner dinner at a certain point, especially if you're a woman. I think I'm at that point now, and I'm considering setting a nice table and ordering takeout. Will he think I'm not that interested if I don't break out the cookbook? — Food And Whine
According to needlepointed pillows, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. Actually, it's through his sternum with a big saw. I say that a bit defensively because I, too, love good food but spend all of my time slaving over a hot computer. (I don't cook; I heat.) Luckily, I have a boyfriend who likes to cook for me, but for some guys, a woman who doesn't cook is an automatic dealbreaker. For others, it's a bit of a bummer, but what matters is whether the woman otherwise is giving and shows in various ways that she wants to take care of them. You'll find out which kind of man you have when you're honest with him about who you are — a woman who sets a beautiful table and serves a delicious dinner right out of "The Joy Of Calling Up The Chinese Restaurant And Giving Them Your Credit Card Number."
Got a problem? Write Amy Alkon, 171 Pier Ave, #280, Santa Monica, CA 90405, or email AdviceAmy@aol.com (www.advicegoddess.com). Alkon is the author of "I See Rude People: One Woman's Battle To Beat Some Manners Into Impolite Society."
COPYRIGHT 2012 AMY ALKON
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
It's Advice Goddess Radio! Amy Alkon answers your questions on love, dating, sex, relationships, and manners. Listen live every Sunday from 7-8 p.m. Pacific time, or download the podcast at the link. The call-in number during the show is 347-326-9761. This week, Amy Alkon talks with anthropology professor Dr. John Marshall Townsend on research showing what women want and what men want and what that says about how we should approach love, dating, sex and relationships.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2012/01/09/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
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Comments
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17 Comments | Post Comment
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Okay, not ONE suggestion that she be checked out by a doctor??
Really? Because he does NOT say it's always been this way.
Seriously, the FIRST step should be her getting a full physical.
Comment: #1
Posted by: moon
Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:22 AM
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But moon, just for the sake of discussion, how do you propose that this poor, spineless man "get his wife to a doctor for a physical"? It's not like taking a cat to the vet. And I'd love to know what ailment makes a person think they're entitled to sleep-over with an ex at any time - much less Christmas.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:37 AM
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But moon, just for the sake of discussion, how do you propose that this poor, spineless man "get his wife to a doctor for a physical"? It's not like taking a cat to the vet. And I'd love to know what ailment makes a person think they're entitled to sleep-over with an ex at any time - much less Christmas.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:37 AM
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First letter makes no sense whatsoever, especially this part: "A nearby church wanted my help with their Christmas musical, and I asked my wife of five years, who played bass at my church, to join me. She became angry at this suggestion and said I should do my own thing on Christmas and she'd do hers. " It's like he asked her to pass the salt and she became angry and told him he'd be spending Christmas alone? I feel there's a large chunk of the story that's missing. I'd like to know what really happened before I can form an opinion on this.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Goldie
Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:13 AM
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LW1: Jesus loves you, your wife doesn't. Leave her NOW.
LW2: My husband lived with his parents until he was 26. At my urging while we were engaged, he had his own apartment for a few months while finishing up college. His mother did his laundry, cleaned his room and cooked his meals for him, but he's not a Mama's boy.
My MIL has a "Need to be Needed" and squashed any efforts on my husbands part to be self-sufficient. But my husband and his parents in all other aspects had a healthy relationship and they welcomed me with open arms.
How does this fit in with you? My cooking skills were wasted with my new boyfriend and later husband because he didn't care much about food. He liked food at certain restaurants because he liked the atmosphere of them, but the food came second to the romance of his date. As for his cooking skills, it didn't go beyond cold cereal and microwave popcorn. Of course I have since trained him to cook and shop, and I must say, he makes a mean stir-fry. He even knows what a wok is now.
With previous boyfriends, a well prepared meal was a way to please my man. Or at least one of the ways. Anyway, for the first few years of our marriage, my husband could have been served cereal 24/7 and he wouldn't have cared.
This is the man you are looking for.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Chelle
Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:16 AM
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Amy handled LW1 perfectly.
LW2: Here's another idea. Learn how to cook 5 or 6 dishes well. It's not that hard, you can do it! Ask your friends who are good cooks for recipes and have them come over and SHOW you how it's done. Video them if you need to. I'm not a very good cook either, but I can make a few simple dishes. The good news is that most men like simple food. A few ideas: You can cook some pasta and add some bottled sauce, make a salad and warm up some garlic bread. Easy! Buy a cheesecake for dessert! Or bake potatos, broil two steaks, and add some steamed veggies. Or go ethnic and make burritos. Once you develop a repetoire of a few dishes that you can cook well, you will feel more confident in the kitchen.
Comment: #6
Posted by: PuaHone
Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:21 AM
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LW1: A guess - As a retired pastor, he has spent every year of their marriage performing church duties on Christmas. She finally thought that this would be the year they would establish their own traditions, or at least do something for themselves. Then, he wants to get involved in another church's celebration, and drags her along. I would actually go so far as to guess he volunteered her before "asking" her about it but that's pure conjecture.
Yes, her communication skills stink, and it's true that her raging outbursts are not helping. Obviously he needs a spine. But I seriously doubt this has anything to do with her wanting to leave the marriage or be with the ex-boyfriend. It seems like pretty standard passive aggressive behavior. He's not a mind reader. I recommend a dozen marriage counseling sessions to start, then see if the rage factor is still there, calling for more.
Comment: #7
Posted by: jessica
Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:40 AM
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@jessica -- I had a similar thought, that perhaps he "volunteered" her without asking her first what she would like to do for Christmas, but her response was so bizarre and over-the-top that even that was her motivation (or part of her motivation), I just can't buy it. Plus, as for the whole, "he has spent every year of their marriage performing church duties on Christmas..." -- well, again, maybe she feels this way, but: they've only been married five years, and for at least some portion of that time, he's been retired. We're not talking about 20 or 30 years of this behavior. This goes WELL beyond this woman's communications skills "stinking." Bad communication skills don't extend to sleeping over at a lonely ex-BF's house.
@Goldie -- I think what's missing is what jessica surmised -- the LW decided "here's what we're doing for Christmas this year" without first consulting his wife, and this angered her. That, in and of itself, is fairly standard. I've been known to get angry when my husband unilaterally decides something for both of us. But I wouldn't then say, "if that's what you want to do, that's fine. You do your thing, and I'll do mine. I'm going to go sleep over at my ex-BF's house." So, perhaps the other thing missing from the equation is that he is ALWAYS doing this, making unilateral decisions for the both of them. Again, being pissed off about it is pretty standard. Being pissed off about it enough that you decide to go spend the night with your lonely ex-BF is NOT pretty standard.
Now, let's say she PO'd because he's always making unilateral decisions, and she pulls out the "I'm spending the night with the ex-BF" in retaliation, and then her anger escalates when he suggests this sounds like cheating...well, what, exactly did she expect her husband to do/say/think? If my husband said he wanted to go spend the night with his ex-GF (ANY night, much less wanting to spend an important holiday with her), I'd wonder what was going on between them, and I'd wonder about it out loud.
That they have, apparently, had multiple conversations/arguments in which "then why don't you leave me" gets bandied about, there's a big problem here. So, there probably is something else we're missing here (there almost always is -- it's generally the other side of the story!), but assuming that what is here is close to the truth, then YIKES!
The LW admits that he avoids conflict, but I would suggest it goes beyond just avoiding conflict -- he avoids action. Even when he's at his most "assertive," it's, "then why don't you leave me." Hey LW -- why don't YOU leave HER?
Comment: #8
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:35 AM
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LW1-
Your "wife" has a creative interpretation of the meaning of "I love you". People who love don't refuse to share an activity that ought to be a common point between the two of you, they don't plan on sleeping over (on Christmas Eve yet, was that her Christmas gift to you?) at the house of a single, lonely, ex-boyfriend, they don't wax eloquent tirelessly on what a piece of shit you are, and they don't fly into a rage & sulk that can last hours/days/weeks.
This is very strange. Apart from the fact that your wife is behaving like she's mentally ill, I would check whatever records I could get my hands on (land line, cell phone, credit card, e-mail if you can) to see how many little hook-ups there may have been in the past between her and the "single, lonely, ex-boyfriend". It would seem to me that her little planned Christmas activity was so conveniently in place already, up to and including the planned hiking the next day. The two of them had been planning all of this, and methinks this is not the first time.
Even if you find no evidence, that doesn't mean no hanky-panky is taking place - her behaviour is appaling. Interesting that she jumped on the occasion to pick a fight about your proposed activity for Christmas. Sure looks like she was looking for an excuse, evidently because she had one of her own already lined up. You ought to get yourself tested for STDs. God knows who else the "lonely' ex-boyfriend is banging.
You're into therapy for conflict avoidance, you say? *I* say you should visit a divorce attorney and install a life-long conflict avoidance of HER.
You're better off alone than with her and, trust me, you won't be alone for long. There will be some nice divorcee or widow in your church who will snatch you up in a minute. (But continue the therapy, lest you end up with another Walkyrie like her...)
P.S.: She must be going through menopause.... couldn't resist, even though this is not the Annies, hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
LW2-
If the man you're dating is one of those for whom "a woman who doesn't cook is automatically a deal-breaker", then unless you're prepared to be a good girl, toe the line and pretend to be something you're not all your life, it is better that he finds that out as soon as possible, before there is too much emotion invested. You need to find out who you're dealing with also - it goes both ways. Set up a beautiful table with candles. Take-out is fine. Explain why with a smile, and take it from there. Some men love to cook and are very good at it. You never know, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:23 AM
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Is there someone at that nearby church with whom your wife does not want you to interact? Old girlfriend? Ex-wife? Maybe she is jealous, with or without cause, and was using this sleep-over idea as retaliation.
Otherwise, she sounds crazy and I wouldn't sleep one more night in the same house. Would be too worried about what she might do if something set her off while I was defenseless.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Shirley
Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:33 PM
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LW1: Chelle's response was the best! I'm still rolling on the floor laughing!!
On a more serious note... I worked for years with musicians while at CBS in NYC.
Many, many performing artists come from emotionally battered and scarred environments.
Some of the stories they told me about the abuse they sustained while growing up were gut wrenching.
LW1's wife fits the personality profile of many that I worked with - needy yet abusive.
They have to constantly feel loved, but are abusive because of the behavior they endured while growing up.
In most cases the situation does not change and the people will stay who they are for life.
LW1, it's best to end this relationship as it will NOT get any better.
Work on yourself and then seek out a good partner.
Oh and yes, here's a good book to read in the meantime: 'The Mirror Effect' by Dr. Drew Pinsky.
It will explain a lot of your soon-to-be-ex's behavior.
--Captain Wastey
Comment: #11
Posted by: Captain Wastey
Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:59 PM
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Am I the only one shaking my head at the thought that, as a pastor, people were coming to LW1 for marriage advice and counseling?
Comment: #12
Posted by: KJ
Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:20 PM
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Re: KJ
Well, it's always the same thing, you know? "Those who can't - teach", and "The shoeman's daughter goes barefoot".
Comment: #13
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:50 AM
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@KJ -- I'm with you -- but the fact is, MANY pastors, counselors, psychiatrists, etc., go into those jobs because of their own psychiatric/life issues. The old saw really is true -- show me a room full of psych majors, and I'll show you a room full of head cases (as someone who minored in psychology, I would include myself in that room, by the way). But to be sure, not all pastors (or counselors or psychiatrists) are created equal. Some are highly-trained for the counseling side of their jobs, and some are not. Just because this guy clearly has marital (and other) problems of his own doesn't necessarily mean he was bad at his job. Indeed, some would argue that someone who has never had any problems in his marriage won't be much of a marriage counselor because he won't understand what it's like and has no personal experience to bring to the table. Still, like I said, I'm with you on this one!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:55 AM
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LW1: He's a retired pastor in his 50s and he's been married to this ball of fire for 5 years? Did she bust up his first marriage with these moves?
LW2: Yeah, a woman who can cook automatically gets charm points, like a man who can dance. Unless you really aren't interested, you can always learn how to cook. There are few better life skills than knowing how to feed yourself well. If it attracts someone else's taste buds too, so much the better.
Comment: #15
Posted by: LouisaFinnell
Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:34 PM
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LW1—“She then announced that she'd be spending Christmas Eve with her (single, lonely) ex-boyfriend, staying the night at his place and hiking with him on Christmas Day. I was taken aback.” You thought that this cozy little holiday rendezvous with your wife's lonely and single ex merely had the whiff of adultery? It stinks rotten of it if you ask me! I'm not sure what kind of relationship you have with your wife, but clearly avoiding conflict isn't working out all that well. Your wife is behaving as though she has pent up rage and frustration; that it's being directed towards you is clear. Stop being so namby pamby and pretending everything is roses and sunshine. It's time to grow a pair and go with your wife for counseling to figure out what's going on and how the two of you can communicate better in order to fix it.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Chris
Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:02 AM
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Am I the only one who thinks that most people assume commitment to be with family Christmas day, and that as such it is almost certainly obligatory to run any plans not to buy your spouse? I assume that as part of being conflict avoidant,he often says yes to other people's requests without checking with his spouse and expects her to deal. Probably Christmas was one time too many, and too loaded,especially as given the scenario,it's likely his wife has asked him to check plans with her first, he said yes, and now is going against their agreement (don't ask me how I know this to be typical of conflict avoidant men in counseling!). Then he pulls e " but we can be together anyway" card by asking her to volunteer her services too, unpaid, when she hasn't even been asked?
The ONLY response to someone who will not join with you to plan a basic life is to say, okay, if you don't check with me, you do your thing, I do mine. I think that the adultery threat was just that- a threat to try and get him to instant how frustrated she was at the lack of faithfulness from him- faithfulness comes in small packages, too, and being faithful to your word is also important. Not the best, most mature way for her to handle it, granted. I have to say, I understand, but then I was married to a man who did the same thing. probably her defensiveness was because she knew she was being unreasonable, but she was also frustratd and furious.
Glad the letter writer is in counselling- hope he takes it seriously, and starts to respect his boundaries and other people's boundaries, including on their time as a couple during big holidays
Comment: #17
Posted by: Slow
Tue Feb 7, 2012 6:17 PM
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