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Bare Naked Mommies
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The Long Trip to Tenuous
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When the Mother You Love Is the Woman You Can't Stand
Dear Annie: My mother lives by herself. I have not spent a great deal of time with her, but now that she is aging, I feel guilty for not being around. Mom doesn't have any friends, and my siblings barely speak to her. She is a difficult woman.
Mom is very negative, has no interests and says terrible things about everyone. She is a natural worrier. The glass is always half-empty. The only things she ever wants to talk about are other people's problems, her medical conditions and stories about her childhood that I've heard a million times. Just the thought of having to spend a little time with her makes me anxious and apprehensive.
Although counseling helped me deal with growing up in an unstable environment, it has not made things better when it comes to the stress I feel when I'm around my mother. I've told her it's difficult to deal with negative people, but she doesn't think that applies to her. If I told her outright, she would never be able to get past how much I hurt her.
I know some people will say to be brutally honest, but they don't understand that Mom's reaction would be unhelpful. She'd obsess over it, but she wouldn't change. I love my mother, but I can't stand to be around her. How do I cope? — Trying My Best
Dear Trying: Can you talk to Mom's doctor and ask him to prescribe an antidepressant for her? All those qualities that annoy you — her negativity, obsessive thoughts, worrying — can indicate anxiety and depression for which medication could be enormously helpful. Tell her you love her and want her to feel better.
Dear Annie: I decided after 16 years of marriage to divorce my husband. We married young. He was a good provider and father and treated me well. We have two beautiful children and a home on the water and were financially well off. But he was also controlling and emotionally detached.
After years of loneliness and depression, I decided to leave him. I stayed in the marriage a lot longer than I wanted for our children, hoping my feelings would change. After various marriage seminars and two years of couples counseling, I came to realize that I was not in love with my husband and probably never was.
Both my husband and I come from strong Catholic backgrounds. When I announced I wanted a divorce, my husband's family stopped communicating with me. A mother at my daughter's school cornered me to say I should have tried harder.
I once had the same mentality. People seem to think that if you were the one who chose to walk away, you are not hurting. Annie, this pain will be with me forever. But do I regret my divorce? No. Staying in an unhappy, dysfunctional marriage would have been telling myself I don't matter. — Starting Over in N.D.
Dear N.D.: Divorce is always difficult and often heartbreaking. No one knows what someone else's marriage is like unless they have lived it.
Dear Annie: You often tell readers to put their final wishes in writing and see that everyone has a copy. While I agree with the first part, the second isn't always a good idea. In fact, in some families it can be a disaster.
I have been an estate planning attorney for more than 21 years. I have seen adult children bully their parents when they are unhappy with the will. Also, it is not unusual for people to execute several wills in their lifetime. If they change their mind, they don't need everyone to know each time. If there are going to be unhappy people fighting, it makes sense to keep copies to a minimum.
I would encourage everyone to discuss their family situation with an estate planning attorney. — E.R., Woodbridge, Conn.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2011 CREATORS.COM
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36 Comments | Post Comment
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RE LW3: I agree. But for different reasons. It is no one else's business who you leave your assets to---and those that disagree AFTER YOU ARE GONE and hire a lawyer to break the will.
But to argue with it and bullying tactics against you won't take place. And you can come back to haunt whomever.
Find a trusted friend outside the family, the trusts from the local bank, etc. Many people who's jobs are involved with being the 'right person'.
With my dad, it was the young rancher on the next acreage. He had bought most of my dad's ranch, my dad saw how he took care of business and asked him to be in charge of everything final.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:23 PM
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LW1
PERHAPS antidepressants can help... any straw to grope at, at this point.
She "doesn't have any friends, and my siblings barely speak to her". That's because "she is a difficult woman". As much as you may feel guilty, this it NOT YOUR FAULT. You are NOT to blame because she is "very negative, has no interests and says terrible things about everyone." Be aware that she will be saying "terrible things'" about you as well, the minute you're out or earshot.
Only she can change herself. She is not in the least bit interested. And you have ab-so-lu-te-ly no influence and no responsibility on this.
Bear her presence to the extent that you find tolerable. Considering the kind of childhood you probably had, even that little is 100% more than she is owed. You are NOT obligated to put yourself in harm's way from toxic people whose very presence can destroy you. "Well-ordained charity starts at home" - THAT'S what it means. If she ends up all alone except for what little time you can emotionally afford to devote to her - that's her problem, not yours. SHE laid her bed, SHE lies in it.
LW2-
"A mother at my daughter's school cornered me to say I should have tried harder."
It's always the same thing - women are the ones who have to make the marriage succesful and when it fails, it's all their fault. Yrrrrch.
"Staying in an unhappy, dysfunctional marriage would have been telling myself I don't matter."
Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. You DO matter. But the general thinking is, women are only there to serve, to be someone else's extension, they don't really exist as human beings. Re-yrrrch.
P.S.: He-e-e-ere we go again... worlds change, mentalities stay the same.
LW3-
I DON'T agree with giving everyone a copy of the will. As the LW pointed out, it can lead to bullying. Write out your will. Give the executor a copy. Tell the family where to find the original after you croak, but DON'T give them a copy. Give the executor a copy of the amended version when it happens - no one else.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:46 PM
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the letter from lw2 is not something I can even remotely relate to or understand. I reread it many times and I still just do not get it. This is probably because I have never been divorced, so I cannot grasp what she is saying or where she is coming from. I wish she was more precise than the vague "emotionally detached" description. There are a lot of things people can do to make a person believe they are emotionally detached (whether they truly are this or not). The person can be quiet, not talkative. The person can also appear to not be listening because they do not say "mhm" or "okay" or anything beyond just sitting there, and sometimes do not even look at you. My husband does this sometimes, but when I tell him to prove he is listening by repeating back what I said, he quotes me exactly. Or perhaps, she meant it on a more intimate level in reference to a lack of physical cuddling and stuff. How exactly was he emotionally detached. If he was like this before the marriage, then did she marry expecting change? She says he treated her well, so exactly what kind of detachment and controlling behavior was it, cause that is not treating a person well. She says she now believes she was never in love with him in the first place, so then why did she marry him? Was it for stability or because he seemed like he would be a good father? Did she mistakenly believe she was in love, cause I have a hard time understanding how someone could mistakenly believe they were in love, so why does she no longer view those particular feelings as love?
I'm also having a hard time understanding why after the divorce proceedings were finalized she is still hurting since she is the one who walked away. If she does not love him, then why is she in agony? Shouldn't she be happy?
I am not saying she is wrong for divorcing him. I am not saying she is right for divorcing him. It's not my marriage. I just don't get this letter, that's all. It's a little contradictory in itself.
On a final note, I've found women typically just want guys (and others in general) to just listen to them. When women talk, it isn't so much they are seeking solutions to a problem or anything, it always seems to me more like the ladies just want to be heard and have it validated you get their feelings. I once listened to an upset co-worker talk for over an hour and all I really said during the conversation was "mhm" and "I get it." I kept wondering what I could say to help her fix her problem (I'm a 'fix it' kind of person) but kept silent cause her issue was beyond me. At the end she seemed happier just from venting. Perhaps the persona of emotional detachment is from a total lack on the guy's part to communicate... I guess?... I don't know. I just know if my husband ever told me I was emotionally detached, I would have to ask him to clarify what exactly he meant.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Maria
Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:33 PM
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Re: Maria...I don't mean to sound ugly, Maria, BUT why did you post here? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Granted, you have the RIGHT to post; I just don't understand WHY! (Btw, I could answer your questions, based on my prior experience, but it would take too long and take up way too much space.)
Comment: #4
Posted by: Ms Davie
Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:39 AM
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Maria,
I agree the description was vague, but she said she felt depressed for years because of his behavior, and they tried retreats and counseling, so I'm fairly certain that her husband knew exactly what she was complaining about.
As far as why she might be hurting, though--we all have ideas of what we think our lives will be like. When those ideas fall through, we mourn. She didn't expect or want her relationship to turn out this way, so she's sad for what could have been. She may also be sad for her children.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Laura
Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:44 AM
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LW1--"I love my mother, but I can't stand to be around her. How do I cope?" An antidepressant Annies? Really!? An antidepressant isn't going to cure your mother from being the mean nasty bitch you make her out to be. Your letter is a litany of all the reasons why your mother is difficult, why she's made your life a living hell and why you basically can't stand to be around her. Nevertheless, you seem overly worried about coming clean with mom; hurting mom's feelings or overly concerned that if you're brutally honest with her you'll somehow upset your mother's apple cart. Your mother's apple cart tipped over long ago. It seems to me you're using misplaced concern for your mother as an excuse to avoid a confrontation with your mother. It's obvious your mother's negativity and oppressive nature has cut you deeply over the years and your resentment towards her is palpable. My advice is to either be a big girl and confront your mother head on with everything you've written here without worrying about how she'll react, or simply distance yourself from her like the rest of your siblings and leave her to figure out why. Seems like she doesn't think she's the one with the problem so don't hold your breath waiting for an apology. In any case, you can't have it both ways.
LW2--"People seem to think that if you were the one who chose to walk away, you are not hurting." My question is how would a mother at your child's school know enough details about your divorce to ask such an intrusive question? Maybe you've martyred yourself a bit too much dear. Your letter seems to be all about you. You were lonely, you were unhappy, you were never in love with your husband, you stayed in the marriage longer than you wanted. Maybe that was the problem with your marriage; it was all about you. Of course your husband was controlling and emotionally detached. Gee, I wonder why. Seems like your ex-husband is the winner in this story, let's hope you let him keep the house on the water although somehow I doubt it.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Chris
Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:43 AM
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LW1- you've missed the most important point of therapy (and the Annies have missed the point). You can't change other people. You can only change yourself.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Jodie
Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:17 AM
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LW1: Do you have any idea why Mom feels and behaves in such an unhappy manner? Understanding and empathy on your part might help you find ways to show the love you feel for your Mom. Is ther anything you can do to make her happy for even a moment? For example, call to wish her a good day, tell her about something wonderful in you life, bring her flowers or plan a fun activity that you will do with her. It is ok for you to try to help her out. She spent a lot of time and energy raising you and your siblings. How did you end up being a happy person?
LW2: I totally empathize because I lived the same life. Now, 25 years later I still mourn the failure of the marriage and family that I worked so hard to create. The most challenging consequences have been the impact on my relationships with my children, the difficulties trusting my judgement to make decisions or develop relationships and poverty. I hope you do a better job of healing from your loss.
Comment: #8
Posted by: nancy
Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:31 AM
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LW1, I'm not going to judge you for your divorce because I'm not in it-- but really what did you expect from the ex-husband's family? They are HIS family. Even if the divorce was justified (and who on the outside can make that call?), if someone hurt my brother/son and I had no particularly compelling reason to see them again, we probably wouldn't be communicating much.
Also I have to say the "I was never in love with him, so now I need to be free" sounds good from your side. But from his side and from the side of his family it sounds like this: you married someone you didn't love and then let him provide for you materially for 16 years. Yes, your decision made you unhappy, but you also got kids and house on the water.
It's the emotional equivalent of secretly not paying the mortgage for a year, and then being surprised that your spouse is angry about more than just being homeless. You kept a material fact from him, and in doing that you deprived him of the ability to make different choices about his life.
And I just have to throw this out there-- maybe he was "emotionally detached" because he eventually figured out that he was just a bank account / sperm donor to you. If I found out I was just my husband's brood mare, I'd be cranky too.
I'm not saying any of this is true, and you're right LW1, no one knows how much you're hurting. But I suspect that the people who know how much *he* is hurting don't really care.
I'm not saying that's fair, or that you're a bad person, but that's life. Quit trying to seek sympathy and validation from his support system.
As for the lady at your kid's school: either she's nuts, or she's more than just "a mother at your kids school." If she's the former, who cares what she thinks. If it's the latter, see the above.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Erin
Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:36 AM
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LW1 - pretty bad advice from the Annie's. Did they seriously advise the LW to drug someone else so that the LW will have a better time during visits? Maybe the LW should ask her own doctor about anti depressants for herself to reduce her anxiety about seeing her mother. It's also bad advice because it's hard to imagine the LW following it. It's not likely that someone who can't say something unpleasant but true to a person she's known forever, is going to be able to call a stranger (mom's doctor) on the phone & suggest drugging Mom to make her visits go better. LW needs to accept that she can't change Mom and it's not her responsibility to change her or fix her - Moms always going to be boring & negative unless she herself decides to be different. LW should see Mom as much as she feels necessary and tolerable. Maybe accepting that it's not her job to make Mom better will make their visits more tolerable. Heresy, I know, but not every experience in life is pleasant; some are just doing a duty.
Comment: #10
Posted by: kai archie
Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:16 AM
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LW2 - I sympathize. A lot. One suggestion I might give is to act more assertively. It is perfectly natural that the ex's family won't communicate with you. They support their own and see him as the one wronged, especially if he IS a good father and provider. When people who are essentially strangers to you accost you with "you should have tried harder," please feel free to tell them politely and firmly that your personal life is none of their business, and when you want their opinion, you'll ask for it. This pain will NOT be with you forever. You'll get over it, and if it seems like the pain is lingering, see a therapist again.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Ariana
Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:30 AM
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Loved Erin's take on LW2 - the funny thing is, as Maria pointed out, the LW wasn't asking for advice or even a question. She was just venting - basically defending herself to people who don't even know her. Weird. Reminds me of the saying "Let the guilty speak first." And then she becomes a mirror in which women BTL see their own reflection and answer accordingly. Interesting.
But LW1 wants the Annies to tell her how to cope with her aging, negative mother. A few people had it right - Mom's not going to change. There's nothing that indicates she was an abusive witch, as some have tried to make it seem, but more like what I call an emotional vampire - the kind of person who sucks the air out of the room and the energy out of a person because you're trying to fill in to make up for what's lacking. And with a person like LW1's Mom, it's a bottomless pit and so you come away from visits feeling exhausted. After a while, people like that just make me laugh. It's the old "The world sucks, it's always sucked, it always will suck, my life sucks, and none of it is my fault". Makes me exhausted typing it! Since it's her Mom and she feels obligated to some filial duty, I say, if possible, agree with her. Yep, you're right Mom! Might as well eat some chocolate and watch Judge Judy!
Comment: #12
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:33 AM
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re Chris and kai archie:
To quote a Ms. Lisa B: Clap, clap, clap! I completely agree with you both, in regard to LW1. Antidepressants are not the cure all, miracle pill. It's a serious, mood altering medicine, designed for those who truly need it. The Annies really shouldn't just throw out that kind of advice. It's dangerous. Plus, a pill aint going to cure bitch. Maybe the LW should get on an antidepressant for when she has to be around her mom….
I'm shocked no one has mentioned that LW1's mom may be suffering from menopause ;)
Comment: #13
Posted by: Casey
Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:34 AM
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LW1: A few days before you come over, call your mom and tell her the last visit was depressing--just ragging on other people, etc., and that you'd really like to talk about happy stuff. It's just as easy to talk about things that make/made your mom happy, and you'd like for your memories of each other to be good ones. When you're an old lady and want to tell people about your mom, you want to recall nice memories. So, you're giving her time to think of things, and you're telling her what's expected of her at the next visit.
When you visit, bring something to eat that is your mom's favorite. "Remember when you taught me to make this? Remember Dad always had three helpings?" or whatever. Then talk about the food for a while, it's kind of a netrual topic. If she gets negative, remind her and re-direct her: "Mom, there are just as many pleasant things to talk about, let's talk about THEM." If she still can't do it, remind her of what you told her you needed, then leave.
I think that for some groups that feel they have very little power over their lives--teenagers, the elderly--complaining makes them feel they're still important. For other people, complaining is just a bad habit they get into. My husband complaaaaaaaained about a bad day once, and I said "Didn't anything good happen to you all day?" "NO. . ." "Well, no one set you on fire, so there's a plus!" He started laughing really hard when he realized he'd been a little too negative. And I have a friend who says "okay, you said a negative thing, now you have to say a positive thing" whenever people around him get too cranky. It kinda snaps people out of their cheese-with-that-whine attitude. And you can remind your mom of other p!!ssy relatives that no one wanted to go visit.
I'm sorry to say this is going to be a little like dog training, you will have to remind/repeat/reinforce.
Comment: #14
Posted by: angoradeb
Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:51 AM
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LW1: A few days before you come over, call your mom and tell her the last visit was depressing--just ragging on other people, etc., and that you'd really like to talk about happy stuff. It's just as easy to talk about things that make/made your mom happy, and you'd like for your memories of each other to be good ones. When you're an old lady and want to tell people about your mom, you want to recall nice memories. So, you're giving her time to think of things, and you're telling her what's expected of her at the next visit.
When you visit, bring something to eat that is your mom's favorite. "Remember when you taught me to make this? Remember Dad always had three helpings?" or whatever. Then talk about the food for a while, it's kind of a netrual topic. If she gets negative, remind her and re-direct her: "Mom, there are just as many pleasant things to talk about, let's talk about THEM." If she still can't do it, remind her of what you told her you needed, then leave.
I think that for some groups that feel they have very little power over their lives--teenagers, the elderly--complaining makes them feel they're still important. For other people, complaining is just a bad habit they get into. My husband complaaaaaaaained about a bad day once, and I said "Didn't anything good happen to you all day?" "NO. . ." "Well, no one set you on fire, so there's a plus!" He started laughing really hard when he realized he'd been a little too negative. And I have a friend who says "okay, you said a negative thing, now you have to say a positive thing" whenever people around him get too cranky. It kinda snaps people out of their cheese-with-that-whine attitude. And you can remind your mom of other p!!ssy relatives that no one wanted to go visit.
I'm sorry to say this is going to be a little like dog training, you will have to remind/repeat/reinforce.
Comment: #15
Posted by: angoradeb
Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:51 AM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence...Dear Maggie ~ Your "Yep, I agree with you" suggestion just might do the trick on waking Mom up. Mom's not expecting anyone to agree with her; she just likes to whine because it gets her some kind of 'strange'...although negative..attention. Plus she probably likes to hear somebody else's voice. I've seen your suggestion work more than once. Once the *whiner* hears the unexpected POSITIVE reaction to their whining: The "Yes, I agree with you that the world sucks, etc." then the "whiner" realizes just how stupid and pathetic they sound. That may be all the *therapy* these people need!
Comment: #16
Posted by: Ms Davie
Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:03 AM
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LW1 - Do what you need to do to keep your mother safe and secure - the minimum - and then get some counseling for you. You need some coping skills. Your mother is what she has always been and is reaping what she sowed. Even if she is depressed (doubt it) and you get her on meds she just going to be a negative, boring, gossiping, pesimistic bitch. It's all she knows. You can't/won't fix that. Work on you.
LW2 - Why will this pain be with your forever? You were wounded. Let it heal. Maybe look for a more guilt free spiritual path. I think Methodists are okay with divorce. Check it out.
LW3 - "I would encourage everyone to discuss their family situation with an estate planning attorney." Well, yeah, of course you would since...you know...ya are one.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Rick
Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:25 AM
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Maria - I'm going to take a moment to answer some of your questions about LW1. You ask about her not knowing if she was ever in love, and why did she marry. Because she was young and the young often don't realize what love is. I think also that someone marrying young may have been in love, but now questions it because they thought love lasted forever.
Why did she marry if the husband was this way prior? We don't know that he wa. People change after marriage, throughout marriage, throughout their lives. The man my husband was before marriage is not who he was after. The man my sister married changed after marriage AND again after having kids. For her, this was a good evolution.
Why is she hurting if she didn't love him and is the one that walked away? Because, love or no love, ending something long-term (even when for the best) is difficult to do. It can be painful. I had a boyfriend that I was not in love with, but I was fond of him. When I walked away after a year it was hard and I missed him terribly. It's pretty normal.
@Chris - maybe the LW2 letter is all about her because she is still dealing with a choice that she made for and about herself. Just because someone writes a letter that is about themselves doesn't mean their whole life was about themself. Sometimes it's even ok to make a choice that is for and about you because it makes you the best person you can be for other people. For all we know, this is the first time she is actually thinking about herself rather than serving her husband. But I suppose she was remiss in not submitting pages explaining all this so empathy could be found? Or maybe she did and the Annie's edited.
Comment: #18
Posted by: kristen
Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:40 AM
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LW1: I think the reason she feels guilty is not so much her not being around and not having the same happy memories of her mother (as her friends may have), but that her mother is: 1. a human being (no matter now negative or toxic she is), and 2. aged to the point where she needs constant care, and her daughter (out of altruism or sense of duty) wants to provide it and hopefully salvage whatever years she has left with the woman who gave her life, and make those happy years. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that.
I think anyone that offers advice along the lines of, "Stay away from her," "Unlove her," etc., is being mean and cruel. Sure, it might keep LW1's sanity as she doesn't have to put up with abusive words, but as long as her mother is living and breathing, to withhold her dignity from her is the utmost cruel act I can imagine. She may be unpleasant, but unless this woman has actually done something truly heinous, such as rape a child (and there's no indication that has happened, so I'm ending that one right now), she deserves some attention from her children.
LW2: I'm going to side with the LW here ... I have seen loveless marriages, and here, it does no good to stay in a situation where things are that unhappy. I don't know whether her husband was that controlling, but nonetheless, it was clear the marriage was over and it's time for both of them to admit the lust died, things didn't work out and it's time to move on. Sorry that your marriage is over, but I wish you the best here.
LW3: I think it might be a good idea to give everyone a copy of the will for two big reasons: 1. Everyone is on the same page as to what a loved one's final wishes are; 2. It doesn't turn into a copy of he said-she said. As always, interpretation of the will is best left to the attorneys if there are any questions or disputes.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Bobaloo
Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:54 AM
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Re: Maria
You misread - her husband was not telling her she was emotionally detached, he was emotionally detached himself (last line of the second paragraph).
As a divorced woman (from a man who was so much in bad faith I could have asked for a religious anulment), allow me to translate.
"He treated me well" = He didn't beat me up.
"He was also controlling" = emotionally, psychologically, verbally abusive.
"and emotionally detached" = He didn't have a heart
The way I read it, I see a woman who is vague because she doesn't know how to put into words the kind of mental cruelty and mind games she was subjected to. I'll bet dollars to donuts that if she got started on Susan Forward's books, she'd see her husband and marriage in there, and a 500-watt bulb would light up in her brain like a flippin' Christmas tree.
Why would she still be hurting? Let me count the ways:
1. She was immediately cut off by the in-laws. Apart from the fact that there will have been people she loved in there, shunning in itself HURTS. That's why it's very effective as a social tool.
2. She is being judged and condemned by people she barely knows. It isd possible she lives in a very small place where everyone knows everything about everybody.
3. She likely lost friends over this.
4. She is a religious person and feels guilty on the emotional level, even if she knows, on the intellectual level, that she did the necessary thing.
5. She had to give up a nice life - monetarily speaking.
6. Her financial situation probably took a hard hit.
7. Her children are now the product of a broken home. Perhaps they're being bullied at school because of that.
8. They may be hearing her called every name in the book when they visit the in-laws with their father.
9. Something she invested a lot of time, effort and emotion into was nevertheless a failure. I remember being sad and depressed after I left my husband and, by then, all the minds games and abuse he had subjected me to had killed everything I had ever felt for him and I didn't love him anymore. And yet I was immensely sad. It IS a loss, regardless of who initiated the divorce procedures.
That'll do for starters. I'm sure there are other things. You can be certain that a woman of her background will not trash a marriage of 16 years over nothing, considering the price she had to pay to get free of him.
Does that answer your questions?
@Chris
Yes, Chris, a woman who has spent 16 years taking care of everyone's needs except her own, will sound like everything is about her when she finally wakes up to the reality that she has needs too. Because all of a sudden, she IS examining what's about her indeed, which was never addressed before. That doesn't make her selfish or self-centred, it makes her human - as opposed to being an appliance.
You have ZERO evidence that his treatment of her was deserved. Blame the victim, why don't you - again.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:04 AM
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LW1: You're not alone -- this is so common that advice TO older parents about "how can I get my kids to call me more?" includes admonition to not be negative.
But hard as it is for you to visit, remember that you're only getting that negativity for the length of your visit. She lives with it, 24/7. Life without friends, without non-obligatory contact with your adult kids,and spent worrying is a horrific existence, IMO -- and my guess is she hasn't a clue that change is possible or even desirable. It's the only way she knows how to live, and she's probably convinced it's beyond her power to change her personality.
You've got the advantage here, since she's so predictable. It's up to you to change her direction -- but please do so lovingly, as the Annies suggested, rather than out of some misguided self-righteous desire for "confrontation" to make YOUR visits more bearable. So, don't say: "Mom, I love you but I find myself putting off visits because of the negative vibes rolling off you. You're a downer to be around." Instead, say, "Mom, I love you and I'm concerned about you because it doesn't sound like you're getting much enjoyment out of life. Would you say that you're happy?"
What you're trying to accomplish: helping her see that she has much to be thankful for, and that someone can indeed choose to be happy even in less than ideal circumstances -- you can point out that some prisoners of war and in concentration camps, and those battling terminal cancer, have found much to be thankful for and found joy where they can.
You can point out that some people choose to fight negative thought by deciding they will say three positive things for every negative they utter -- "Nancy's never been the brightest bulb." "She does have a heart of gold; I've never heard her speak ill of anyone...and she's really got a knack for hospitality, doesn't she?" "My gout has been acting up again -- it's hard to walk." "I'm glad I'm able to get out of bed, especially on a day like today when the sunshine is so inviting. I think I'll take the phone outside and call Carol to see how she's doing."
Aging IS hard, harder than most people under 65 have any clue, and if you don't make a conscious effort to combat negativity, it is very easy to sink into despair and fear.
Comment: #21
Posted by: hedgehog
Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:40 AM
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#13 Casey, lol at the menopause comment. Apparently is is the en vogue default explanation for b!tchy behavior.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Humama
Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:11 PM
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LW3-
After reading some of the comments to E.R's letter. I felt compelled to write. I come from a situation were my Mom was moving out of her house to a small adult living apartment and years prior, had put a codicil together because she was afraid there would be fighting over her things. (One needs to also be careful of who you pick as the executor of your will). In my case, the executor was the eldest of the adult children who decided that her codicil was unfair and since my mom was not dead yet, the things from her house that she no longer needed were up for grabs and no need to follow the codicil. She ( the assigned executor) was the bully. So, also be aware of what adult child you select, if you do not select a lawyer as executor. Quite frankly, I recomend a lawyer or someone outside of the family. I no longer speak to my brother and sister now because they came in and took all that she wanted them to have as well as all she wanted me to have and am working very hard to forgive my elderly mother for not saying "Stop" or " No". Giving a list to everyone ONLY works if all are in agreement. Giving a list only to the Executor is only good if the executor truly wants to execute your wishes.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Kim
Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:45 PM
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@ Lise Brouillette
"You have ZERO evidence that his treatment of her was deserved..."
And you have ZERO evidence that his treatment of her WASN'T deserved. Blame the husband why don't you - again.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Chris
Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:10 PM
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Re: Chris
Oh, so in absence of ANY evidence, then it's taken for granted the woman deserves whatever bad thing she gets? Mysogynist much?
Comment: #25
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:25 PM
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LW1 - It sounds to me like your mother's living alone, having few friends, people not visiting her much, etc., are natural consequences that occurred because of her negative and clingy personality. I agree with those who have said you cannot change her, only yourself, and antidepressants are not some sort of cure-all. Medication only helps bring down certain symptoms so that other treatment methods, e.g., therapy, can work.
My suggestion for you is to read Beverly Engel's Divorcing a Parent. There are sections in the book on how to teach yourself to emotionally detach when you are around a toxic parent and also to limit your time around them when things get to be too much without feeling guilty. I would also talk to a counselor again about feeling so responsible for your mother's behavior - the only thing that changed when she got old, is that she got old. If her behavior was inexcusable at an earlier age, why should it be any more so now just because she's a different age?
LW2 - You have my sympathies. I too am Catholic and was on the receiving end of judgmental crap - and more - when I left my abusive ex. My godmother cut me off and never spoke to me again. My ex's family was behind a lot of vindictive stuff that went on during my divorce and dragged it out much longer than it should have been.
Even though I knew my divorce was a necessary evil, I still felt tremendous guilt over it for years. What helped resolve that was reading about Catholic annulments and how the Church believes that not every marriage is a sacrament, that just because you had a wedding, said "I do" in front of a priest and witnesses, signed the certificate, etc., it doesn't mean it was the right thing in God's eyes. Sometimes it takes us humans a while longer to realize the union was a mistake.
Also, if you don't intend to remarry, you are still a full member of the Church and can receive the Sacraments. The notion that divorced people get excommunicated was based on a law that U.S. bishops came up with in the mid-1800s and at that it got struck down relatively quickly, and long before Vatican II.
I did seek out, and was granted, an annulment. It's a very detailed, long, and sometimes painful process, but I felt it was worth it. The divorce courts refused to acknowledge any evidence of my ex's abuse so for the Church to say yes, we believe you and we're going to nullify the union - and this even with my ex attempting to appeal the annulment - was really vindicating.
I hope you will talk to a priest about the annulment process. Sometimes the Church will consider granting a Decree of Nullity in a situation like yours, depending on the circumstances. There are also some good online resources out there.
LW3 - Good point. Thank you for sharing this, I never would have thought of it...
My ILs did show my husband and his sister copies of their wills before they went overseas on missionary trips for a few weeks several years ago but hubby and his sister felt too grim reading them to be wondering about whether anything got split up fairly. I doubt my husband even remembers what the wills said... and God knows with how things have panned out since whether he's even IN their wills anymore (nor would he really care if he wasn't).
Comment: #26
Posted by: PS
Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:04 PM
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Re: Bobaloo
The Will has nothing to do with advanced life directive, which is what you are referring to in knowing what they end of life wishes are. And as far as families go, your 'way to go' should not be a secret--but something talked about and adamat about. If my sister and I had not had the conversation with our dad a few years back, my mom would not have cremated him. We stood by his wishes--my mom was upset, but honored it. BUT she had a body/funeral before cremation so they both got what they wanted. And I have the ashes at my house till spring.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:59 PM
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Re: Ms Davie,
I posted because this is the comments section and that was my comment in regard to the letter. A lot of people seem to forget when responding to the comments of others the simple fact this space is intended for people to post their comments (thoughts, ideas, etc) about the Annies' advice no matter what the comment may be (save for vulgar, obscene comments). It is not meant solely for amateur advice. Why did you post your comment?
Re: Maggie,
Yes, that is a very big part of what I was getting at in my post. She seemed to just want someone to listen to her.
Re: Kristen,
Ah, thanks. It seems so simple now that you said it I feel kind of stupid for not getting it in the first place. But thanks.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Maria
Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:57 PM
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Re: Ms. Davie
I posted my comment here because this is the comments section. People seem to forget at times this section is intended for all comments (thoughts, ideas, etc) in regard to the letter, and this is not just a section for amateur advice from anonymous people. Those were my thoughts after and while I read the letter. Why did you post your comment?
Re: Maggie,
Yes, that was a very large portion of what I was getting at in my post even if I did not do a good job at getting to such a point. I was very tired at the time. She just seemed like she needed someone to listen to her in the letter.
Re: Kristen,
Ah, thanks. It was so simple though I feel kind of stupid for not getting it though, but thanks.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Maria
Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:03 PM
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the main thing I notice in LW1 and shocked no one mentioned: since when can you ask a doc to prescribe meds for someone ELSE?! Oh and no LW1 does not need meds to visit mom. If you need meds to visit someone you need to not visit. Mom needs to be told flat out she's a bitch. If she's gonna dish it she can take it.
Comment: #30
Posted by: wkh
Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:20 AM
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My mother could also be a very difficult person. I congratulate you for seeking counseling for an unstable childhood and wish I had done the same. As my mother aged, it became even more difficult and I used the tactic of trying to change the subject twice. If that didn't work, I simply told her I had to go and I would stop by another day when she felt more like visiting (calm voice...non-confrontational) and then I left. I didn't feel guilty because I felt I gave it my best shot and the choice was up to her.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Ras
Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:35 AM
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Re: wkh
Damn right. I have a lot of trouble with people who have no problem spewing out their yurunda and then act like you're breaking their heart the minute you give them a taste of their own medicine. Sensitive, schmentitive, they just don't wanna take what they dish out.
Ras, you already had the right approach to deal with the thorny one. I've noticed that people are like wine - the good vintages turn mellower as they age, while the cheap plonk turns to vinegar. I hope you finally got therapy, even if on the late, to heal the damage the shrew did to your psyche. If not, you should. Never too late to do well by yourself - SOMEONE should, because she sure didn't. Make it a Christmas gift to yourself and a New Year's resolution!
Comment: #32
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:24 AM
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Lise, try to stop being such a manhater (no wonder you can't keep a man), and close your smelly, judgmental vagina for a few minutes. It might help you to listen to others rather than constantly lecturing. And judging from how often you post, and how you MUST be the first one to post every day, it's clear that your personal life is lacking and you're in no position to be giving advice.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Kyle
Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:21 PM
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Re: Kyle--Advice from a guy who hangs out on a board mostly populated by older women. Maybe YOU should get a life, Loser.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Annies Fan
Sun Jan 1, 2012 4:33 PM
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Re: Kyle
Hi John Dung! And a happy New Year to you too!
Comment: #35
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:45 PM
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LW2
You may never be able to gloss your decision to divorce to your in-laws satisfaction, and to your acquaintances it is really none of their business. You can only be true to your own feelings, which have been thought through with great care. Live your life honestly and kindly. Raise your children to accept better for themselves. Be happy.
```
Comment: #36
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:05 AM
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