Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1-
"Will they tell the relatives with little kids then?" Of course not.
"Should I tell the family members who have children? " YES.

You did the right thing. Your despicable in-laws are fighting for the right to be wrong. At children's expense. YRRRRRCH.

P.S.: Oh, and Annies? This isn't breaking their hearts. If they had a heart, it would be bleeding for the harm done. It's breaking their PRIDE. Puke, and re-yrrrch.

LW2-
He acts as though he's entitled because that's exactly what you've made him. Yeah, get him evaluated if you can - at age 23, he may well refuse to go. You want a way to motivate him? Practice tought love and kick him out. Give him a (reasonably short) deadline to find a job and move out and stick to it, whether he did or not. Trust me, he'll find a way to survive.

LW3-
She didn't "demand". She requested and Betsy relented, probably because she didn't want to feel guilty. She doesn't deserve a medal because of that.

I disagree Lise about breaking their hearts. I can't imagine how much pain and anguish it would give me to know one of my babies or grandbabies had done such a heinous thing. I would want to know why, what caused things to go wrong. At 18 this is a cousin barely done being a child. A few months earlier and this would be a juvie matter. I would have so many questions and want to know where I fucked up, and ache for the lives of both my children and grandchildren. I would feel totally strangled because helping one would mean hurting the other and I would have no idea how to balance it. I would totally need therapy. I also probably wouldn't be telling people right now as I got used to my new reality while my child or grandchild was in jail. I would tell family, sure, but not my bridge club partners. Too raw too soon. Then I would sit up at night and feel guilty for having all this angst when at least I wasn't the 12 year old being molested. UGH what a mess.

And yes LW1 you did the right thing, for sure, including not telling the brother first. This was best handled by the professionals. Hopefully they'll get therapy confirming that.

LW1 – This is a very complete accounting of the incident which occurred in the not-so-distant past. You did everything correct, followed the advice from the police department, and the ending result was suitable for the offender. I just hope everyone is prepared for the emotional tsunami, which due to the lack of openness with the other family members (especially ones who have children), the grandparents are going to be trapped at the bottom of the proverbial collapsed *house of cards*. Who is going to be in the disaster zone with them? The parents of the molester, certainly. The molester, himself, of course. And all because a dirty secret would be more pleasantly swept under the carpet. Life doesn't work that way. You and your husband, being responsible parents are, at present, the target of anger from the parents and the brother, but just wait. If they continue to let their lies snowball, well, down goes the aforementioned house of cards.

You can do nothing more than what you have already done for your son; but, you can ensure that all parents (with their children) who would normally be around the offender (when he gets out) have full knowledge of his crime. Could you live with yourself if another child suffered through what your son did, and you did nothing? Sure the molester might not LEGALLY be allowed to be around minors, but with the denial of the father and grandparents, I have this feeling they would think this not to be a big deal.

One more thing, please ensure your boy is never around his grandparents or his uncle without either you or your husband with him. After all he has been through; he does not need to be told that he over-reacted, or that everything happening to his cousin is his fault. You have done a great job protecting your son, thus far. Please be prepared to continue to do so.

LW2 – Is it possible the drugs your son is taking are the reason for his lack of motivation to get a job and move out. Sorry, but you are enabling him. Give him a time line to be prepared to move out, and stick with it! Right now, he has no reason to become the adult that he could be – because it takes WORK!

LW1: You did the correct thing and don't let the inlaws bully your family into thinking you did not.
Inform your family members, also tell them the story that the inlaws are standing by... Let them decide how to deal with it afterwards.
This 18 year old could have been a learning too for someone else in the family--if grandparents are outraged--was grandpa an abuser too? Those that scream foul loud enough some times are involved.
Either way, do not take the stance the 18 year old did not know better. He did. It was a matter of how long it took your child to tell. Lucky he had not physically hurt your son further--as part of the threatening process of silence. Many perps will kill their victims to keep the silence.
The county jail rather than prison is the first indicator that the judge won't let this go out of your community, wants to keep an eye on him due to age. 1 year and 1 day would be prison. He will be required to attend local therapy and other 'back into the society' things. I know our area has many programs expected to be attended. Skipping once can get you to the prison factor.

Reinforce to your son and other young children in your family what happened was a horrible thing and that things like this must always be told to someone. Abused often turn to try to abuser state so please get counseling for your son. Maybe also check out other forms of physical therapy by--maybe martial arts--learn the ability NOT to be the victim and learn to trust themselves again. You have my prayers.
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LW3: The close knit group got larger by a new grandchild. That allows for 'traditional' changes to be made, ever so small they may be. As the child (ren) come and grow, grandparents place in their lives change. This is 1 day of the 365. If the 'good friend' got bent over that, have her host your New Years party. If not and she insists on the whole bunch, remind her it is her house, put away what she does not want children checking out. Hand her a baby gate and outlet covers. Tell her welcome to the club of grandma house.
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LW2: Set a date and apply new boundaries. Add new rules and tell sonny-boy it is time he gets his life clean. When you die, no one will feed the cat you left behind, nor will they be willing to take on a druggie couch potato. I don't get when parents complain that the kids just sit and watch TV, eat their food and be on the internet. Shut those avenues off. Make a password for the internet. Buy only the food YOU LIKE, not his favorites. Take him by the hand to the laundry and tell him to get busy.

LW1: "Well, he IS at a state institution, but it's not really educational. At least, I hope he doesn't learn anything else there!" And don't the other family members need to know so they can ask THEIR kid if anything happened with Cousin Lester? I think this is not unlike finding out a sex partner has an STD; you may not have it but you want to get tested. At the very least, this can become a teaching moment for the other parents: "sometimes someone will lie and say they're doing something that's okay and won't hurt you, even if they're family. You have to listen to the your own gut and do what is best for YOU, and don't worry about the other person's feelings. And don't hesitate to ask your dad or me if you're not sure."
And I'd ask Grandma why your kid's feelings aren't as important as the pervert cousin's feelings.

LW1 - I agree with most of the posts above. Especially these parts "Sure the molester might not LEGALLY be allowed to be around minors, but with the denial of the father and grandparents, I have this feeling they would think this not to be a big deal" and "Those that scream foul loud enough some times are involved."

LW1 -- Here's something that appears to have been overlooked in all this: the vast majority of molesters were themselves molested, and usually by a family member. You MUST suck it up and have a conversation with him about who did this to him. Go visit him in jail; send him a letter first, saying you have to talk to him about something important. The reason this is so important is that whoever did this to him might very well still be in a position to molest other children in the family -- and because everyone's focused in Cousin Lester, the original perp can fly under the radar. Please do this -- it won't be easy, and frankly, if he truly was victimized himself, he'll probably have a better chance of rehabbing himself once he knows his own earlier victimization is being recognized.

LW1 - You absolutly did the right thing. Your job is to protect your family. I also think you should inform the relatives that have small children. If I had a child and someone in my family was a convicted molester, I would certainly want to know. Yes, your BIL and MIL will get more angry with you but those relatives with small children will be grateful that you told them. Legally he won't be allowed to be around kids once he's released but I bet my bottom dollar the family would just ignore that part and allow kids into the home once he's released. Definitly tell the rest of the family.

LW2 - You are enabling him. And he will continue to be an entitled drug addicted mooch for as long as you allow him. Give him a deadline for him to move out. If that deadline comes and he's still on the couch, call the police to have him removed. Then change the locks. Yes, it'll be hard but he needs it. It's for his own good.

LW1 - You absolutly did the right thing. Your job is to protect your family. I also think you should inform the relatives that have small children. If I had a child and someone in my family was a convicted molester, I would certainly want to know. Yes, your BIL and MIL will get more angry with you but those relatives with small children will be grateful that you told them. Legally he won't be allowed to be around kids once he's released but I bet my bottom dollar the family would just ignore that part and allow kids into the home once he's released. Definitly tell the rest of the family.

LW2 - You are enabling him. And he will continue to be an entitled drug addicted mooch for as long as you allow him. Give him a deadline for him to move out. If that deadline comes and he's still on the couch, call the police to have him removed. Then change the locks. Yes, it'll be hard but he needs it. It's for his own good.

Re: Nancy


First thing I thought of was, was that kid molested himself, and who did it, the second was, was there anyone else ?


Off the bad, when this kid gets out of jail, his parents, grandparents, etc are not going to disclose to anyone where he has been or what happened, so he will be around small children.


The reason that kids dad wanted to know before this went to the cops, was so that this could have been covered up, make no mistake, he wanted to keep his boy out of jail, thats his son, and that was his priority and what he would have done.


Whats also worrisome, is that he probably has molested before, and this might be a good time to start spreading the word, to find and help any more of his victims, along with trying to find out if and when and who molested this kid in the first place. If it was a teacher or an uncle or whatever, that person may still be out there, harming kids.

Re: LW1, this is a terribly difficult thing for you to have gone through, but you did exactly the right thing -- and your instincts, to not want this to be secret to protect other people's children, is also spot on. Do try to have a conversation with your in-laws, because it's likely they are in shock and denial and hurting about what happened. It's hard to discover that someone you loved did something so wrong. Joyce's thought that maybe someone abused this abuser is also very sadly possible -- so perhaps the in-laws were already in denial about someone else (or even their own behavior). Give them a chance to do the right thing, but if they won't, or can't, you should go with your gut -- it hasn't failed you yet in this situation.

LW2: Have you tried engaging your other children? Maybe they have some insight into your youngest's behavior that may help you decide how to help. Right now all you are doing is enabling this behavior, so some sort of intervention is called for. You might also want to go see an addition specialist or a support group like Al-Anon or Narc-Anon to get advice from others who have been in your situation. A medical evaluation is also a very good idea, possibly this 23-year old is clinically depressed or has some other psychological issue. Good luck.

LW3: If I remember correctly, all that was being asked was to shift the routine of swapping Christmas visits by one year for one time. Not the most onerous request at all, so I don't think today's LW3's assessment is accurate -- it would have been gracious and pretty easy for the original LW to acquiesce to this switch for one time, and the go back to alternating the next year.

LW1--What a mess! There are many issues involved here beyond your son's cousin molesting him. How you proceed now will define the entire family dynamic for years to come. Tread very carefully. First, you did the right thing by going to the police and filing a report documenting the abuse of your son. The legal system responded by putting the perpetrator in jail and designating him as a sex offender for the rest of his life. You're satisfied with this outcome, your son is safe, now it's time to end your involvement with this matter and do your part to heal the family. Understand that it is not your responsibility to blow the cover on your relatives who are simply trying to maintain some shred of dignity by explaining to friends and relatives that their disgrace of a son is "away at college" when in reality he's sitting in the county jail. What they tell people is none of your business. Furthermore, it's also not your job to take out a billboard in front of your relatives house proclaiming that their son is a sexual predator who will prey upon every child in the vicinity. Going on a crusade and telling all the family members, friends and relatives about the molestation will serve no purpose other than to stir up family drama, incite fear and panic, and feed the rumor mongers. It will also make you and your family extremely unpopular! How will that affect your husband and your marriage? Finally, it was unfair of your husband to blame his brother for the actions of his son. Pedophiles are sick individuals and medical science cannot explain why they are the way they are. A good start in healing would be for your husband to extend an olive branch to his brother. Good luck.

LW2--"...but our youngest, age 23, still lives with us, does drugs and has no job. He sleeps all day and does nothing around the house to help. We have tried different ways to motivate him." Have you tried kicking his shiftless ass out? Give that a try; it'll work wonders, trust me.

LW2
For a doped-up, basement dwelling kid-ult, this son has very cleverly contrived to keep things soft for himself. You can't turn him into a diligent corporate man overnight, but you'll have to take the first steps. That means cutting off his supplies of money, food, shelter, telephone, internet, car, etc. unless he is in some sort of programme of self-improvement. Do it for all of you.
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This is for at the end of your rope. There son is 23 and feels entitled. Kick him out. Stop supporting him and his bad habbits. You probably pay for his drugs when he gets money off you. He will never learn unless you mske him leave.

LW1: Please listen to Nancy (#7) and do what she says. Perhaps take a professional with you when you visit the young man in prison, possibly your kid's therapist. THEN inform the rest of the family, including whatever you find out from the prison visit. Then, by all means, be as kind and sympathetic to the grandparents as (a) they deserve, and (b) you can manage. Also, keep in mind Jenna's (#3) third paragraph.

LW2: The Annies' advice is good. The parents will be far better equipped to commit to whatever policy is required if they have the support and guidance of those experienced organizations.

LW3: If I recall the original letter correctly, my thought was that Betts wasn't much of a friend if she couldn't wrap her mind around the concept that babies change everything. “We've always done it this way” is NEVER an adequate reason to say “Therefore we must continue to do it this way.”

Mookster and Nancy : I totally agree.

SO many issues at play here. My advice would be to talk to the counselors and police about how to proceed. if there are other cchildren in the family (and in the neighborhoods they have lived in as well), the parents need to be made aware so they can determine if there are any other victims. This may mean bringing in a specialist to talk to the kids, in fact, if I was a parent involved, I would prefer that. Victims of abuse often will lie to cover up for the abuser, usually because that's a part of the abuse itself, and many kids are afraid to tell their parents something like this because they are afraid of getting in trouble.

If this was a daycare instead of a family, the police would indeed brng in a specialist. I don't know why that can't work for families as well.

LW2: Chris, you are not a parent, and your statement to kick this kid out of the house is pretty easy to say, but it is hard to do and a recipe for disaster.

This is a young man who has no coping skill. This is in part, his parents fault. They should have been teaching him all along to take care things. My kid knew how to cook and clean before she was in junior high. She's at home still, but she knows that she has to keep the house clean with me, and she cooks three nights a week. She's also in college and she's much younger than this kid. She does all of this because I taught her to do these things.

But for this kid, he has no skills and so a more careful approach needs to happen. I would start by giving the kid an ultimatum. You get a job or go back to school AND maintain a high GPA OR you are out of the house in three months. Help him with the security deposit, but don't sign your name on the lease ( you don't need to be liable when he gets kicked out or there's a drug bust).

I would put my foot down about the drugs immediately. None in the house EVER. You can suggest 12 step programs, but they are not the magic bullet for everyone that the advice columnists seem to think they are. For yourselves, though, LW, you may want to head over to Al-Anon. As in LW1's case, sometimes you need to loop in professionals, and in this case you may get some advice there that can help.

PS: last night, a friend of mine called me about a similar issue. She had two "children'" living with her both in their 20s. Both of these kids had attitudes and had concerned our circle of friends for years because they were borderline abusixe to my friend. But as a PARENT which is what most of us are, we knew we couldn't be as flip to say "kick them out!".

The tipping point was her birthday, when we had a party for her and they not only did not help with anything, but they refused to even talk to their mom. Several of us sat her down at that point and said, these kids are sucking the life out of you. You don't need this (she's crying on her own birthday, it was horrible).

What she did, with our encouragement, was to move from her three bedroom home to a one bedroom apartment when her lease was up. This left her "children" scrambling to find places to live and they are not happy. That was two years ago and to this day they are still angry at my friend. One has cut off all contact with her, the other has just started contacting her.

She called me last night to tell me the progress is slow with the one kid that has contact with her and yet it is a hopeful development. Lesson for the LW? don't expect loads of gratitude for getting tougher on your son. And make sure that you don't have family members around who are willing to take him in and continue his mooching pattern. That's one reason my friend's kids have been able to continue their moochinesst. Make sure the family (his siblings included) are on the same page with you whatever course you take.

Re: wkh
YOU would go through pain and anguish, and so would I, but we're people with a heart. We both would make sure it wouldn't happen again through any neglect on our part, which would include embarassing disclosures.

"I would tell family, sure, but not my bridge club partners." This is where there is a difference. I wouldn't tell my bridge club partners either, of course not, but these people don't even want to inform family, including the ones with little children who WILL be at risk when that molester gets out. You and I know perfectly well that there is no cure for this, given the opportunity he will do it again. And they don't give a damn, they only care about their shame. And, as others pointed out, possibly their own guilt.

"When he is released from prison, he likely will be prohibited from being near these children anyway", say the Annies. Yeah, right, I'll be curious to see if they abide by that.

@Nancy
You got it right. Others suggested he may have learned it at home, but you went further and in the right direction.

@Chris
I don't agree with you that this is none of their business. If another child in the family ends up being molested because they said nothing, both the LW and her husband will never forgive themselves. They don't have to make it a FaceBook announcement, but the ones with small children definitely should be told on a one-to-one basis, and they won't learn it from the bro or the grands, who are all busy trying to sweep this under the rug, regardless of further harm caused.

And victims of sexual assault blame themselves, a belief generally reinformed by the perpetrator. The 12 year old boy likely feels very guilty for ratting his cousin out. Informing the relevant people will further validate him that his complaint was valid and that he was right to tell, which should be part of his healing process. And that is VERY MUCH the LW's business.

@LW2: Ughhhhhhhhhh. Seeing as these parents lack such spines they have to write to an advice column about what to with their “entitled” son, I sincerely doubt it's a “medical or psychiatric problem.” Parents: stop coddling your children!!!! This is what happens when you do!! Of course he just lies around all day, you allow him! God only knows how you treated him when he was a child.

@LW1: Now this woman has a spine! Much applause to her unbelievably bravery and strength. I love that she doesn't even act like there was an option of not saying anything. Kudos to her and her husband! I wish their son the best in his recovery :(

For LW2, Chris' suggestion of a "tough love, kick 'em out" approach might need to be on the table if nothing else works, but it does NOT "always" solve the problem. In fact, it can make the problem worse, and parents should be aware that if they kick him out and he then OD's on the streets, then they will NEVER forgive themselves and it will haunt them the rest of their lives.

Such an act is really a last last LAST resort and only if the parents can't live with the situation as it is any more. There are probably several steps these parents haven't taken yet that they should explore before they put this one on the table.

#1: I'm puzzled-why did this mother go immediately to her in laws and tell them? My first impulse would be to the 18 yr olds parents, but I understand not doing that is better, as per the police advice. But why the in laws? Why not directly the police?

#2: For those of you that are not parents, this is not black and white, throw him out. You have years of involvement and love and tears invested in your kids and you just can't throw them out. However, I have learned to see my adult kids as adults and to let them handle their own problems. The parents or the mother at least, could see a therapist and get advice on the best steps to take, the first for me would be to deal with the drug issue, which is illegal last time I heard. Couldn't they be held liable for what goes on in their house? Then take it from there.

Taking the child to 'visit' or confront the perp cousin in jail at the child's age IS WRONG. If afterwards, ONLY on the advice of counselors and in the PRESENCE of the counselors--NO perp parents--. He is an adult. He would have served his time so no lawyer needed either.

A friend of mine went to the jail to confront and ask questions of a guy who was driving the car in which her son was killed one day after school. He just decided to RACE a semi to the corner. Hopped up. But it took a year to do this, along with 2 of the counselors and on the order of the judge that he had to see her. Another arm of restorative justice. She said it was the hardest thing she ever had to do, but he was forced to tell her the truth of what went on that day after school. (Another one of those days sirens went blaring, my blood ran cold as instinct said fatality as I called my sister asking where her grandchildren would be. The senory included my sister. One of the two killed was her nephew on her husband's side of the family. My niece's husband is a fireman, trained in the trauma accidents--pulled the body from the wreck, did not know it was family. The other 15 yr old was not found until the rescue flipped the car back to get it ready for transport. The one in jail knew there was one more boy but said nothing. The one who lived did not have life threatening injuries.)


Anyway, confrontation is very difficult for adults, do not have this child be part of it unless all specialists are involved. Confrontation can help him move from always being the victim. Do not let the perp cousin try to say 'but he wanted it' crap.

LW1 -- You've done everything right, so far -- you went to the police, you got your son a therapist. So, my only question for you is, why would you go to an advice column for answers when, thus far, you have been so good about going to the experts? I believe you have gotten some excellent advice at the BTL, but honestly, you should be asking the police and your son's therapist about what you should and shouldn't be doing related to informing anyone else about this. I absolutely agree that other members of the family with children need to be made aware of what happened because you can bet your bottom dollar that the grandparents and parents are not only NOT going to tell anyone, but they are NOT going to make sure the grandson/son doesn't have contact with other children in the family.

As for Chris' suggestion that, at this point, it is none of your business... well, if you can live with that and know that it's likely he's going to be in a position to molest someone else, then I guess that advice is just fine. I couldn't live with that, personally, and I would consider it the much kinder thing to let others know so they can take appropriate steps to protect their children (and it may well turn out those other children have ALREADY been victimized which is another reason for other family members to be aware). I call that the "kinder" option because the alternative is to call the police and tell them that the cousin is having contact with children, which undoubtedly would lead to his being arrested again for violating his parole.

LW3 -- I could be reading way more into this than I should, but I get the feeling that you are one of those people who has never had kids and very much resents the way other friends and family members changed when they had kids. There are plenty of childless people out there who do get this, who understand that kids do change everything (and, indeed, it's one of the reasons those childless people choose to remain childless -- I ought to know, it's why I didn't have kids until I was 40). Yes, some new parents and new grandparents go way over the top and expect every little thing to revolve around the little cherub to the exclusion of all else, and those people are extremely tiresome, to be sure and shouldn't have every single one of their cherub-driven whims catered to. But with a little understanding on both sides, this doesn't have to become a friendship killer. If all the original LW was asking was for a one-time change, that just shouldn't be a big deal.

As regulars know, I recently gave birth to my first child. Because he cannot have a flu shot until he is at least six months old, the pediatrician has urged me not to travel with him right now. I told my family that, for THIS holiday season, if they wanted to be part of my son's first Christmas, they'd have to come to me -- and I also told them that I would understand if they couldn't travel to see us, but that they would have to understand why we can't travel to see them. I'm sure some members of the family think I'm being a Nervous Nellie and an overprotective first-time mom. But no one is holding it against me, and the immediate family (my parents, my brother and his family) were happy to travel to see us. And they know that in the future, we'll be happy to travel to see them. Seriously, this is such a no-brainer, I can hardly believe we're still discussing it here at the BTL.

Joyce, I don't think anyone was suggesting taking the 12 year old to visit the 18 year old. From what I read, it was suggested that the PARENTS (LW) go see the "perp cousin", preferably with the assistance of a counselor.

Someone needs to get the information from the 18 year old about if/when he was molested and by WHOM. Usually, the people molesting kids are not strangers, they are family members, teachers, other people in positions of trust. In this instance, my gut (no fact at all here) is telling me it may even be a member of the family (an uncle? Another older cousin?)

If this is the case, for all concerned, it is IMPERATIVE that information come out. What if the person who abused the 18 year old "perp cousin" (and I think we can agree it's highly likely he was abused, although not for sure) was ANOTHER relative potentially around the other kids? That's just as bad as letting the 18 year old back in contact with kids.

These things are often like (I've used this analogy before) cockroaches. You see one cockroach, but you know there is a whole nest somewhere. Abuse is the same way. Just look at Penn State: one victim, then another, and now we are up to something like 15 (two more overnight)......by confronting the "perp cousin" you stand a better chance of finding the source of the original abuse.

LW1 - Bad situation here for everyone involved. Tell the relatives the facts and don't worry about it. There really is no choice here and everyone will have to deal with it however they need to.

LW2 - "What should we do"? You should quit feeding and housing him. Wow. That was tough. Here's what you do and it will take some advance planning. The next time you all are going to go somewhere in the car (including your son) drive him to a pre planned destination like a homeless center, drug clinic, hospital, sherrif's office or what ever may be avialable and, drop him off and drive away. Seriously. Either that or get used to the status quo. You're past the point of no return with this kid. He needs to hit bottom and you may have to drop him there.

LW3 - Whatever. . . .

LW1: The Annies skipped their meds again. Your mother-in-law is angry at you and the Annies think she should be treated with love? LOL - Wow! Stay away from your in laws and notify all of the family members what happened because he could have done this to other children within the family and when he gets out he may do it again. Your in-laws have shown what kind of people they are. Keep them from your child.

LW2: He acts entitled because that is what you taught him. Action meet reaction.

Slightly off topic....

This morning on "The Today Show", the 5 Browns (a family of piano players) were on talking about why they turned in their own father (also their manager) to the police for sexual abuse.

The answer from one of the girls abused since she was about 11? "Because he wanted to manage other children, and we couldn't allow that to happen."

Somewhere this stuff has to stop. finding out where it started is the first step.

Nancy, Mookster, and Lise, I couldn't agree more. Sorry, Chris, you're not getting it.

LW1 is an adult. She is responsible for protecting her child and making sure he gets the help he needs, and she has stepped up. Now, it is very likely that there are other victims, including the perpetrator. As an adult, and one who understands the seriousness of the issue, she should take do what she can to protect the other children in the family and community. If conventional wisdom holds up here, there is most likely another predator (maybe the BIL) who victimized her son's molester. Silence and a collection of adults with an attitude of "it's not my responsibility" provide the cover child molesters need to continue.

Nanchan, not off topic at all! Very illustrative of why LW1 can't just let this go at this point.

Re: Mike H - I respectfully disagree with you regarding the lazy son. The kid is on drugs and does nothing. A friendly chat, a heart to heart once and then he needs to hit bottom hard. Or, he lies about the rest of his life and does drugs on his parent's dime until they die and then . . .. . . Give this kid the boot. This isn't a 16 year old we're talking about here.

Re: nanchan
I understood that but my post was to infactically state not to take the child. The suggestion posted was a general sounding why don't you go see him in jail.

Unless a 12 year old has been in legal issues themselves, they don't need to see the jail with the prisoners in them.


We have a Kid Day weekend here and our kid officials and kops are of grade 5, 6. One of the tours (I did this) on was the fire hall and radio station (they take over the station the morning of the celebration) and the law enforcement center. They go through all the areas prisioners are not in. If prisioners are out on work release, then they could see where they were housed (small jail for about 20). They got to do the handcuffs, the BAC, fingerprint, holding cell (all stainless steel to be hosed for disinfection) etc. Got to see the meal trays, how things were served, clothing worn--jumpsuit and slippers, etc. Dispatch, interview rooms, weapon lock up area. When you get out of a squad as an officer in the locked sallyport, you lock your weapon in the wall safe with a key. All monitored. So no out of control suspect/inmate could grab it or over power and get it. Interesting the workings of the LEC.
These 25 kids went in as representatives of their student body elected.

Joyce, thanks for the iclarification.

OFF TOPIC (meaning some poster will likely be upset with this being off topic), I can remember vividly my father (who was an attorney and later a judge) taking us with him, not only to the courthouse with him from a very early age (one of my earliest memories is of being with Dad at the table in front of the judge) but also to several jails.

We regularly visited historic jails, but we also went to San Quentin at one point and once I got over having the Johnny Cash sound track going through my head, it had a profound impact on me. Once you see a PRISON, you never want to go there. I was with my father, two older brothers and two guards and it was still scary. the sounds stay with you. The SMELLS stay with you. The noises stay with you, even though we were well away from the general population.

I completely agree with you that any child who has been traumatized as the LW's son has been traumatized, does NOT need to be further traumatized by going to the jail. The argument could be made even that the LW should not go. I don't know if I could look at someone who abused my child, even with bars in between us, and not want to rip their heads off. ANYBODY who hurts my kid better watch out, and that can't help the situation. In a way, the LW and her family are ALSO victims. But someone HAS to find out where the abuse started. It's very important to try to stop the cycle.

I think what you guys are doing to educate kids on prison life is good, though.

For some reason, Chris saying it was unfair for the husband to blame the brother (which was my initial reaction too) set off a warning bell for me. Why DOES hubby blame the brother? Does he know something about his brother that he hasn't told his wife yet?

RE: Tough Love
I have always been a big believer in the concept of "tough love," and it is clear that LW2 is enabling his/her son. But even "tough love" is supposed to be done with love, not callousness, and every action -- and inaction -- has consequences. So, the LW has to consider what the potential consequences of his/her action/inaction are and then act accordingly.

1) Inaction -- continue to let your son eat, sleep and do drugs under your roof. Yes, you will know he has a roof over his head and food in his belly -- but you will never know when he's going to turn on you (drugs do some awful things to people and lead them to do awful things, even to the people they love), or when his supplier or other druggy friends will turn on you. And your son is NOT going to suddenly straighten up and fly right by magic. The BEST-case scenario is that your son continues aimlessly and relatively harmlessly, and you live out your natural life, and then one day, you die, and suddenly he has no roof over his head or food in his belly. So, basically, the best-case scenario is that you merely put off the inevitable slide to poverty and homelessness. The worst-case scenarios don't bear thinking about.

2) Action -- go the tough love route. Yes, this puts your son on the fast-track toward poverty and homelessness, and there will be times when you won't know where he is or how he's surviving, but he will be forced to act for himself. Whether this merely fast-tracks him toward those same worst-case scenarios, or whether this helps push him toward helping himself is anyone's guess. But at least you will have tried to help him by forcing the change. It's not pretty, it doesn't come with any guarantees, but at least it's a step forward.

I know this is easier said than done. I know that your choices suck. But that's where you're at.

@wkh -- There are LOTS of possibilities here. The one we are all scared of is that hubby knows or has reason to believe that his brother molested the 18-year-old at some point -- but there other, less nefarious reasons, as well...

1) Could be the two brothers have always had a rocky relationship, so blaming the brother was a knee-jerk reaction.
2) Could be hubby always had a good relationship with his nephew and is finding it hard to blame the nephew, so he's looking for someone else to hold responsible, and hubby's brother is the easy target.
3) Could be that, like a lot of people in a lot of different circumstances, hubby is holding the parent, as the "responsible adult", responsible for the nephew's actions, because even though an 18-year-old is an adult in the eyes of the law, we all know few 18-year-olds are all that adult. Think about it -- we've got people here at the BTL blaming LW2 for her 23-year-old son's problems.
4) Could be that even though hubby absolutely recognizes the nephew is to blame, hubby's anger is so great that it needs additional outlets, and his brother is a convenient outlet.

Or, unfortunately, as initially noted, it could be hubby knows where the nephew learned this behavior. There are just too many unknowns here for us to speculate with any accuracy.

Another point to consider is what exactly does LW2 mean by "does drugs"? If we're talking about depressed emo stoner guy who just smokes pot, I'm not really worried about him doing too much harm to himself or others.

If we're talking about crystal meth, crack, or anything along those lines, though, it's a much more serious problem that the parents should think about a more serious response.

@ Carla

Actually Carla, I think you and others with this lynch mob mentality towards child molesters don't get it. You all think that passing out the cousin's mug shot at family events is protecting the children but consider how much harm it's doing too. Pedophilia is a disease. In fact, some researchers believe it's a twisted form of sexual orientation for which there is no healthy expression. Obviously. Once upon a time, gays and lesbians too were shunned for being "sick", put into mental institutions even lobotomized for their orientations. Society hated and exiled them. Society does exactly the same with pedophiles. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not attempting to excuse the behavior or justify it. But it's not just the victims of pedophiles who suffer. This is an 18 year old who is now sitting in prison instead of getting the help he so desperately needs. When he's released, he'll be a hardened criminal who knows full well that the world no longer gives a damn about him. How do you think that will affect his behavior? Where's the incentive to get help or improve? This young man's life will be forever ruined because people like you and others will forever show up at his house with torches; you'll plaster his photo all over your neighborhoods, his job, his relative's homes; you'll continue to tar and feather him, persecute him. You want him dead. While I obviously don't condone pedophiles, THEY NEED HELP! Sweeping these people under the rug isn't helping them.

too easy. I'm waiting this one out.

LW1: there's an excellent chance that the 18yr old has been molesting others for a long time. As a kid, one of the families on our block had a daughter my age and a son 5 yrs older. The daughter was sexually active at 8, and when I was 8, the brother hit on me but I had the sense to cut and run home. At the time, I didn't tell anybody and wonder now what might have happened, but thinking back on it, I suspect that there were bad things going on in that household. Also, my mom's brother-in-law made all of us cousins nervous and one was possibly molested, but we all knew to keep our distance from him, but never told our folks.
I also have a very good friend, now almost 50, who has never married and struggles with depression and anger. He also holes in his childhood memories and is now wondering what might have happened.
LW1, check with your therapist about someone talking with all the cousins, and letting them know that they need to, in general, not be afraid to tell a safe person about anything odd going on, and to be careful about being alone with anyone. It's a shame that we have to tell kids that, but it has always happened--

Re: Lise Brouillette
Yes, the grandma did demand. She "requested", and when Betsy said no, grandma refused to relent, badgering Betsy into agreement. Granny then went on to complain that even though her friend gave in, she didn't acknowledge that granny was absolutely correct to move the event to her house.

So, not only was her friend supposed to do as she was told, she was supposed to be excited about it. I don't think Betsy should get a medal for that. I think she should ditch her bossy, demanding "friend"

Re: Mike H - good point Mike. I don't consider smoking pot "doing drugs" so I didn't think of that. I went right to meth, coke whatever. Still.... I think the kid need a boot up the backside.

LW1 - OMG, Annies. You have blown it at astronomical proportions with your response today.

LW1, you have done all the right things and I wish I could give you guys a huge hug for it. Like your in-laws, my mother insisted my perp brother's abuse was "experimenting" and because of that, he went on to abuse me sexually, emotionally, and physically for several more years until he went off to college, and even then he continued to make comments until my ex cornered and basically issued veiled threats against him when I was 20.

They also tried to keep it quiet, and they flew into a vindictive rage when I finally told the rest of the family at 35 because, and I don't know why it took me so long, I realized that for every family gathering he attended, there were more potential victims. I really kick myself for not stepping up sooner and I just pray to God that if, God forbid, anyone else is a victim, be it by my brother or someone else, that my actions are a precedent that can give them courage to speak out too.

I want to share this with those BTL: My experiences, and that of those I've talked to in my volunteer work who have also survived incest, have taught me that those who enable the abuser are not dealing with a "broken heart" when the big secret comes out. They only give a crap about their reputations and how "bad" this is going to make them look! Don't be fooled - seriously, don't.

I therefore don't give a damn about how they feel, because if they really cared, even if it was painful as hell, they'd still do the right thing and ensure that nobody ever got hurt again. EVER. That would include disclosing the abuse to the rest of the family, and IMHO, shunning the perpetrator. The recidivism rate for pedophilia is too high, and believe me, an abuser can find a way to molest a child in a crowded room if he/she wants.

Chris, I don't know where you're getting your information (NAMBLA perhaps? Ugh), but you need to dig deeper. Experts have identified that a huge component in pedophiles is narcissism, which means they lack complete empathy for their victims and they have managed to dehumanize them. At this point the only "treatment" that seems to work is to shock their genitals when they fantasize about molesting a child - I kid you not, look it up. The therapist who told me this - a Zen Buddhist who otherwise believed in practicing compassion and was anti-hatred in every other way - got an evil grin and did a fist pump when she shared that with me.

I also want to share this quote from Marcia Sirota of the Ruthless Compassion Institute. She posted this on Facebook today and I feel it's very timely:

"It's time to stop making excuses for other people's bad behavior. You can understand why someone did something hurtful but knowing why they did it doesn't make it OK. You need to see that when you rationalize cruelty or insensitivity you enable it. Instead, stop denying hurtful behavior. Let the person know how you feel & what you need. If they respond in a reasonable way, it shows you that they care; if they're defensive or hostile, well, there's one less nasty person you'll have to deal with."

To repeat: When you rationalize cruelty or insensitivity, you enable it.

Child sexual abuse is a form of cruelty. Period. Unless you've heard out someone's full story or have been through it yourself, don't argue with me that it isn't.

MOST of us who have been abused that way have no desire to harm another child. We don't want to put someone else through that hell. Also not every pedophile has been abused - yes there is a chance they were, but a percentage of them are plain evil sociopaths who are getting twisted pleasure out of hurting someone else.

So, LW1, don't just tell the rest of the family. Shout it from the dang rooftops!

Re: The advice to ask him in prison about whether someone else hurt him: It's up to you if you want to try, but understand there may be no guarantees. He may be fearful of his perpetrator and refuse to tell, or he could lie if he's pathological. Or, he may inflict victim-blaming on your son and cause further wounding. I'm not discouraging you, I'm just saying, understand the risks.

LW2 - Oh God, please stop pampering the little snot and kick him out. I have a friend with a similarly difficult son, and he's physically and verbally abusive to boot. She kicked him out and he has a restraining order against him. It's been rough on my friend but the amount of peace that now exists in her home because she doesn't have to deal with his drama and chaos anymore is not lost on her. Oh and he's managing to get his basic needs handled on his own.

On a peripheral note, it's beyond me why the Annies told the LW to try and get him to a doctor given he's an ADULT and he's self-entitled, therefore he's going to thumb his nose and say I don't have to, whaddya gonna do about it? Thus my response - kick his sorry arse out.

LW3 - I'm leaving this one alone. I got nothing.

Re: Lise Brouillette
Yes, the grandma did demand. She "requested", and when Betsy said no, grandma refused to relent, badgering Betsy into agreement. Granny then went on to complain that even though her friend gave in, she didn't acknowledge that granny was absolutely correct to move the event to her house.
So, not only was her friend supposed to do as she was told, she was supposed to be excited about it. I don't think Betsy should get a medal for that. I think she should ditch her bossy, demanding "friend"

Re: Chris. Hand me a pitchfork and stand back! I am one of the villagers on this one.

@Chris -- if I believed that the 18-year-old could actually be helped, then I would agree with you. Without knowing the details of this particular situation, I have no way of knowing that. What I DO know, however, is that most psychological experts will tell you that there really is no treatment for pedophilia, that the best you can hope for is that they are able to restrain themselves -- and unfortunately, the urge is very strong. The result: it's unlikely the 18-year-old can be helped, and when he gets out, he will be a danger to other children. Maybe not, but statistically speaking, that's the most likely scenario.

No one is telling LW1 to make up fliers and hand them out at the next family reunion. And no one is suggesting she go burn a cross in his yard. But other members of the family who have children need to know, both to protect their children in the future and to make sure damage hasn't already been done.

Assuming that the 18-year-old is, himself, a victim of sexual abuse, then I do have some compassion for him, but... as PS correctly points out, even though most abusers were abused themselves at some point, not everyone who is abused becomes an abuser. If telling the rest of the family uncovers even just one other victim who can then get help BEFORE possibly becoming a future abuser, that makes it worth doing. If telling the rest of the family keeps even one kid from being abused, that makes it worth doing.

Let's focus our efforts on the ones who can still be saved. Sadly, it is unlikely the 18-year-old can be.

@PS -- I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story and your insight.

@PS

"I don't know where you're getting your information (NAMBLA perhaps? Ugh), but you need to dig deeper. Experts have identified that a huge component in pedophiles is narcissism, which means they lack complete empathy for their victims and they have managed to dehumanize them."

Yes PS, I got all my information form NAMBLA. Please. Furthermore, nobody is making excuses. The situation is what it is. My comment was only to illustrate BOTH sides of the story. It's really easy for us to sit by and say "well they're evil" or "they're a narcissist." I ask you why are they the way they are? An 18 year old? Pedophiles typically start at a young age. Why? There's a reason and those reasons are not merely excuses. You look it up. Speaking of narcissists...

@ nanchan

Don't be shy hon, give it your best shot.

Sorry, Chris, you're on your own,

Re: Chris

SMH at you...

As usual you don't get it and want to play ostrich. There is NO other side of the story when it comes to pedophiles (and BTW, how is that different from making excuses? Because in my book, it's not!), and again, unless you're willing to listen to those of us who've been victimized by them AND give what we have to say any credence, I don't want to hear your arguments.

My brother is a sociopath and a narcissist. No, he's not diagnosed, but I've had two different therapists concur that he is based on what he did to me, and have told me I need to keep him out of my life as a matter of self-preservation.

You want to know why, how he got to be that way? Because my mother encouraged and enabled it. She swept his molesting me under the rug as "horsing around." She blamed ME when he would beat the crap out of me. She'd join him in taunting and verbally abusing me...

I only saw him get grounded ONCE and that's when she thought he called HER a name - and you know what, I didn't bother to clear the air on that one because for once it was nice to see him suffer consequences for his actions. Even then he came around begging for me to change the story so that she would lift the grounding, and when I refused, he began berating me and calling me names.

By the way, we were in grade school when that happened. Not even a preteen and he was already that manipulative.

That was also around the time he first molested me after finding our parents' porn stash. My former therapist believes he got a rush out of how powerful that felt and that started the vicious cycle. So you see, he didn't have anyone teach it to him. He taught himself.

In case you're wondering my father had an extremely passive role much of the time because he was out of town on business frequently. When he was home he was yelling and screaming at both of us, telling us we were both stupid, etc. He couldn't discipline anyone out of a paper bag if he tried - not even himself.

My brother never got punished once for abusing, humiliating, or torturing me. Not. Once. In fact when I did disclose the abuse to the rest of the family, everyone rallied around him, so once more, he gets his narcissistic ego pampered and insulated. He has literally gotten away with it his entire life - and that is what pedophiles depend on. They depend on secrecy, shame, intimidating their victims into silence or recanting when they do speak up. I think it's something like over five dozen children get abused by ONE pedophile before they get caught, they often begin with family members - and they only stop because they get caught and (hopefully) get their butts put behind bars. They don't stop out of remorse... often confession of the crime is more bragging rights for these monsters.

I struggled for years wondering why, despite all this, I could never gain my brother's love and approval. That stopped when I first started reading Sam Vaknin's articles about narcissism. Then I read Martha Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door." After seeing even experts say there's nothing you can do about these people and the only way you can deal with them is to get them out of your lives as fast as possible, that was enough to convince me.

So you see, I haven't just looked it up. I've lived it, and that speaks much louder than anything your self-proclaimed sheltered life and your ignorant, arrogant attitude can say for you... especially when you didn't bother to cite your sources. You just chose to go on the attack instead when I asked you where you got your information... which tells me unless you can back yourself up in your next reply, then you're making up your "facts" or distorting something you got from an invalid source.

But since I'm sure that doesn't satisfy you, then go read these (remove the spaces in the URLs before you do):

childsafetips.abouttips.com/ pedophiles-and-their-characteristics.php

samvak.tripod.com/ pedophilia.html

www.ipt-forensics.com/ journal/volume5/j5_3_4.htm

By the way, I'm still a big fan of how the Inuits along the Bering strait said they would handle sociopaths in general during an interview back in 1976. After explaining to a researcher that they have their own term for such reprehensible scum (kunlangeta), when asked what they might do to deal with them, one of them said, “Somebody would have pushed him off the ice when nobody else was looking.”

Oh, and to further prove I know my stuff, they've shown that sociopaths don't respond to injected doses of oxytocin, the same hormone that induces nurturing feelings in anyone else. If that doesn't tell you something's seriously wrong with 'em and they're dangerous, nothing will.

Lisa - Thank you. Your support means a lot to me.

@Chris, the last time I checked, pedophilia was one of those disorders for which no treatment has been found to be effective. It's not like depression or schizophrenia or anxiety where there is help available in the form of pharmaceuticals that have shown good results in a significant number of cases. It's not like addiction where 12-step programs have demonstrated results for many people. We've got nothing right now. So how can we get them help that doesn't exist?

Maybe pedophiles do need help, but right now there's no help for them that works; isolating them from society so they can't harm anyone else and perhaps continuing to do research on them is all we can do right now. Releasing them back into the community while keeping their condition a secret when there isn't any way to help them is just a recipe for disaster.

Chris,

The difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, etc is that homosexuals practice their orientation with *consenting adults.* A child cannot consent. Period. To compare the two is, frankly, disgusting.

The recitivism rate is extremely high for child molesters. It is *not* the parent of the victim's job to get him "help" (if such a thing were even possible.) It doesn't matter if he's family or not. The parents of the victim do have the obligation to let their other family members know so that they can monitor or adjust their interactions with Cousin Molester if necessary. It is morally wrong to withhold information that could endanger others.

Furthermore, it's not the victim or the parent of the victims job to make nice to a bunch of people who clearly could care less about the victim. Being a family entails genuinely desiring the well being of your family members and this "family" couldn't care less.

For the unmotivated son, as a felony probation officer who deals with medium/maximum security males, I hear these questions all the time. The only time it worked was when they placed a calendar on the wall with the date circled about when the son has to move out. Make sure you tell him from day one of the calendar that you will provide the first 3 months rent and security deposit on an apartment, and when it is the day to move out, MOVE HIM OUT. If he is on drugs, then you are in for a lot of pain, but you have to take care of YOU first. Read all you can about drug abuse and how it eviscerates families, such as "Beautiful Boy" by David Sheff. You have to maintain your sanity in situations like this, and you have my deepest sympathy.

Re: Lisa
"why would you go to an advice column for answers when, thus far, you have been so good about going to the experts?"
Because even though, intellectually, she knows she did the right thing, she feels awful about it. Both her husband's parents and his brother are giving them (and especially her) the cold shoulder and the evil eye and, while she and her husband are on the same page about this (thank God), she feels guilty, as if it was her fault that the family is split in two. Par for the course. And there is worse to come when the molester gets put of jail, she knows it, and she's cringing just to think of it. Poor woman.

@Chris
"This young man's life will be forever ruined because people like you and others will forever show up at his house with torches"
Well, for openers, nobody is suggesting that and besides, even if we did, it's either that or he gets to ruin child after child's life because of his "twisted sexual orientation". And Chris, you're not gonna make any friends comparing pedophily with homosexuality. Funny thought coming from you!

Yes, they would need help, I agree with you on that. Unfortunately, at the stage science presently is, there IS no help. It's not helpable, it's not fixable, there is no medication to control it and no cure. And a lot of them show no remorse whatsoever, which does little to make me feel sorry for their poor, ruined lives.

Frankly, if I have to choose between feeling sorry for the predicament of predators or that of their victims, I choose their victims. Which ones are YOU choosing, Chris?

@PS
"those who enable the abuser are not dealing with a "broken heart" when the big secret comes out."
Thank you for backing me up on this - nothing like the voice of experience. I'm just sorry you had to learn that from experience.

Don't kick yourself for taking "so long". Part of the harm done is how long it takes many victims to do what you did. But you did, finally - some never get to that point. And thank you for sharing your story with us. It can't have been easy.

Re: Lise Brouillette

Thank you very much. It is hard to share this, I always feel like there's so much risk because there's always the chance someone could judge... and it's also hard for me to deal with the post-trauma aftermath during the holiday season. I had quite the long talk with my therapist about it today in fact.

I just thank God there are compassionate people like her who get it, for my friends, even those here BTL who have supported me when I've shared... and last but not least my husband. I had a deep talk with him today about insights I had and things my therapist pointed out during my session and he was amazing. Honestly despite our ups and downs, he's been my rock through this more times than I can count and I don't think I'd be as far in my healing journey as I am if it weren't for him.

Re: PS
Life is a journey. We're forever in school. It didn't kill you, so it's GOT to make you stronger. You are not alone.

LW1 - Kudos to you for doing the right thing for your son and not allowing him to be victimized all over again. Tell everyone in the family about this abuser, and make sure they all know. Silence is what allows these predators to continue to victimize children. Maybe if someone had spoken up in the Jerry Sandusky situation, he couldn't have gotten away with what he did for so many years.

I can't speak to why the 18-year-old cousin did what he did. Following up on Nancy's comment, LW1 needs to ask the honest questions: "What exactly did happen that day?" and "Why?" Yeah, he probably has some mental impairment, but that is absolutely zero excuse ... some of the worst perpetrators probably are on the autism spectrum.

I hurt for the whole family and that this whole thing happened. I just hope that LW1 does suck it up, visits her nephew in jail and gets the answers she needs. They are probably answers she doesn't want to know (and she should brace herself accordingly), but she needs to. And who knows, maybe someone at school or elsewhere "did something" to the boy.

PS: The comments about some pedophiles being narcissist is very interesting. There's always been a part of me that's believed that this is part of the reason why there are this way is not because they were abused, or because they have some form of autism/Asperger's ... some do, but ... but some are just plain evil. I don't know if that was the case with LW1, but I believe it is the case with Jerry Sandusky and so many others.