Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW3: Unless you are willing to loose this friend FOREVER due to what we have called NOYB, let it go. Should she find your boss at your workplace and tell them of how inconsiderate and buttinsky type personality YOU have? Her employers are not stupid. You have stair steps to getting to be a principal, etc.
And depending on what part of the country you are writing from, we could each tear apart your accent or how you say things, or how it sounds to us. Not to diss anyone, but I most likely would have a problem understanding someone with an extreme drawl (but I think it is a romantic voice) OR as watching TV, the CAKE BOSS on TLC is sometimes throwing words and conversation that would be corrected in my part of the world. But he is not in my part of the world, so why worry.
We each have our 'thing' we grew up with. LW3 just happens to be a P in A nitpicker without something else to do.
Maybe your friend should be worried, maybe you have been vocal to the wrong people. Maybe when she finds out it was you, your ass-will-be-grass. Yep, Said it right. And she will be the mower.
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LW1: Find out what B-i-L is upset about. Tell him you are sorry. And if you indeed slandered him, made fun of him, stole his spot in line, etc, tell him you are sorry.
If he won't accept SORRY from you, tell him then that you wrote to a nation wide advice column to ask what WE think you should do. Tell him you did not name names, but if humble pie needs a name, you can do it.
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LW2: O M G, do you know who all has their OWN teeth? Then don't let it be an issue. Unless you are eating corn on the cob and popping them out at the table to clean them. So what should people say who have dentures---Besides what nice teeth you got there--? it is NOT a big deal. And if you make it a big deal, then it will be a big deal all the way around.

Maybe new boyfriend has a wooden leg he has not told you about.

Meh I'll disagree with the Annie's here. If BiL has a problem with LW1 he can be a man about it, talk to her, explain where her actions have offended him, and request an apology. He's done of this. All he's done is act like a pouting asshole drama king and caused problems. I see no reason he needs his hiney kissed. I also realize however the proper response to my feelings on this is "WKH, do you want to be right or do you want peace?" But I'm baffled by the husband's reaction in this. If my brother's wife was treating my husband in this manner I'd ask my brother what her problem was and tell him to get her to behave in a civil adult manner.

FTR there is an aunt in my family, my father's brother's wife, who is treated much like LW1. Now the whole family, adults, will say she doesn't like us and never has. She doesn't bother to come to gatherings, she's cold, etc. Thing is from my view she became this way because everyone ran around saying "Auntie doesn't like us." So-called "incidents" would be pointed out to me where she was supposedly crapping on everyone and you know I just never saw what on earth they were on about. And now it's a big sad mess. People need to be adult all around and SAY what PRECISELY they are upset about and not go about pouting over implied wrongs.

Re: wkh

I agree. The Bible says (paraphrase) if you have a problem with your brother,talk to your brother. So many people take the cowards way out and loop in everybody else except the person they have a problem with. My personal feeling is that type of behavior should haave stopped in 2nd grade.

LW3: OK, you're shocked. I'll share something with you. When a LOT of people tell you that you are wrong, ti's time to take a look at your actions. As my grandmother used to say "One person calls you a jackass, blow it off. Five people call you a jackass, check behind you to see if you have a tail. Ten people call you a jackass, strap on the feedbag."

Leave this be and stop with the letters to Annie. Why would you even want your friend DISCIPLINED? Have you never heard of talking to her directly?

PS: You probably do stuff that irritates her too, like stick your nose in where it doesn't belong and belittle your friends!

It annoys me when someone uses the word loose when she or he means lose; still, I wouldn't get a person fired over it.

It annoys me when someone uses the word loose when she or he means lose; still, I wouldn't get a person fired over it.

It annoys me when someone uses the word loose when she or he means lose; still, I wouldn't get a person fired over it.

Agree with posters who said LW1's BIL should have been man enough to tell her what his issue was. But he didn't, nor did he ask for advice. Quite honestly, the message I take from the letter is pretty smug and annoying: "we are so wonderful. Everyone else loves us. Our whole town thinks we are just the cat's pajamas. How could we wonderful pillars of the community have a fault bad enough to warrant this horrible treatment?" And not one clue that if they want to know something, they should ask the people who know the answer, e.g. BIL and his wife.

If LW3 is so concerned about the friend, then s/he should be a friend and first speak to her directly and in person, not go behind her back to the board of ed.

@Joyce, in this age of fluoride and modern dentistry, the vast majority 40-year-olds do in fact have all their own teeth. If she has a permanent bridge, no big deal, but if she takes out her teeth at night and puts them in a glass, I would agree that she should tell him before the first sleepover.

LW3, if your goal is to get your friend into a remedial English class, the solution is simple: take her aside and suggest in a friendly way that she take a remedial English class. You have an opening since she's expressed concern to you about her evaluations. But don't do an end-run around her to the school board. As the Annies pointed out, you have no way of knowing the consequences. You may see yourself as having the best of intentions, but you sound bright enough to recognize that your actions could do her harm.

Incidentally, one of my brothers is developmentally disabled. He's an adult now, but has perhaps the functioning intelligence of a five year old. (The reason is physiological; better teachers would not have helped.) He had some good special-ed teachers when he was growing up and some bad ones. The good ones weren't necessarily the ones who always used correct English. They were the ones who taught him simple basic life and relationship skills he needed, and who listened to him, encouraged him, and supported him emotionally when he was ridiculed by the other kids in the school he attended. Several of his teachers were not native English speakers, and their English was imperfect; did that make them bad teachers? I don't think so. They're the ones he remembers with affection more than twenty years later. They may not have helped him perfect his grammar, but they helped him in other ways.

I don't think you're spiteful or jealous, but please try to realize that one can have good intentions and do harm. You're intelligent enough I think to see that intelligence can be expressed in different ways, and not all teachers need to fit the singular model in your mind.

Headline
On the 9th, the headline paraphrased a twee Christmas song even though there was no mention of reindeer in any of the letters. Here we have a mention of missing front teeth (LW2) and they fail to raise a snirtle. (Sigh . . .)

LW1
You've built yourself into a swivet about this, yet the answer is simple. Ask him, and go from there.
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LW1 - I agree with wkh. If her BIL really has a problem with her, then he should go to her and talk to her about it. He obviously has no interest in doing so. I bet if she tried to talk to him, he'd avoid her. Let him be and enjoy your family gatherings without him.

LW2 - I understand being afraid to tell someone about an imperfection that you have. I have 2 ailments that do not allow me to do a lot of outdoor activities such as hiking, sports, etc...stuff that most men are into. I don't date but if I did, I'd be weary about a guy not accepting me because "she can't do much." But if someone can't accept you for who you are, then it wasn't meant to be.

LW3 - If her FB page ticks you off so much, why are you still reading it?

LW3,
It seems like the only place you notice the spelling an grammar issues is on-line. Maybe it is not a poor use of grammar an English issue, perhaps it is an ol computer issue. I have an ol computer an sometimes letters stick as does the space bar. Just a thought!

As you can see my d key is currently sticking. Case in point.

LW3 - While I agree with the Annie's that it would be pointless and counterproductive to report your friend, I am with you in being disturbed and saddened at the low standard we have for educators. It says a lot about our society's attitude about education in general, and special-ed in particular, that "nice" is considered a better quality for a teacher than "educated". In our country, education is woefully underfunded. And while there are some amazing teachers in the school system, too many abandon the career because they can't support their family off the salary, or they get burned out by the ever-increasing classroom size, the piling of bureaucracy and paperwork, and the idea that teaching the children is secondary to playing politics.

This attitude that a poorly educated teacher is just fine is one of the reasons our country is so far behind in education. And the fact that these children are special-ed doesn't mean they don't deserve the best education we can give them. Period.

LW#3 (And cj) It bothers me when people use the word homoNYMS when whet they really mean is homoPHONES. Homonyms have the same spelling and pronunciation, you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other when used in a sentence. Read/red, there/their, and you're/your are all homophones. I guess what I mean is that teachers in glass houses should not throw stones.

LW3: Maybe you're not jealous, but I'm not entirely sure you're not spiteful,either -- because you just can't seem to let this go, and your favorite option does seem designed to get your "friend" in trouble. I wouldn't want a friend like you, frankly. Going behind your friend's back to point out your *perception* of her shortcomings to her employer is just shady, and not in any way representative of good moral character.

You have no idea if her problems with English are evident in the classroom itself; perhaps, like many people, she's more casual among friends but more professional at work. In addition, when working with special ed children, there are a LOT of important things that need to be taught *first*, and good grammar and spelling is not at the top of the list.

The fact that you got so *much* feedback about what a bad idea people thought your plan was and you *still* want to dig in your heels and "be right"about this indicates to me that this is more about your ego than about your friend's performance. And honestly, maybe you should stop being friends with her -- for HER sake, as you don't sound like a particularly good friend.

Why are you writing to advice columnists if you aren't going to take their advice? Sounds to me like you only wanted to hear that you were right, and any disagreement you dismiss. This is a lot more about you than it is about your friend OR about educational standards.

LW1--"I have no clue why he dislikes me. We have never argued or had an unpleasant incident. I would apologize in a minute if I only knew what for." The problem is, there's probably no one thing you did that causes your BIL to dislike you. Maybe he feels as though his brother could have done better; maybe he doesn't like your family background; maybe he thinks you think you're better than others; maybe he thinks your hairstyle is ridiculous! Conversely, maybe he has the hots for you but acts cool and aloof in order to keep you at a distance and therefore keep his crush under control. There could be myriad illogical or abstract reasons why the man is never going to be friendly and cheerful towards you so my advice is to continue to be gracious and friendly towards your BIL but don't take his cold shoulder personally. Life isn't a popularity contest.

LW2--The subject of fake teeth is not something one brings up during the dating process which is why there isn't a check box for that in any of the on-line dating site profiles. I agree with the Annies, once the relationship has progressed to the point of intimacy, then it's time for the big reveal. Trust me, there's nothing whatsoever to feel self-conscious about your looks or your body; none of us is a perfect Adonis. My guess is your man will have some aspect of himself he's self-conscious about too. Plop your bridge into a glass by the bedside with pride. What you see as a disadvantage others might perceive in a wholly different light.

LW3--Stop obsessing over your "friend's" poor grammar and get a life already!!! Your litany of excuses for what is obviously jealousy and resentment make you look pathetic. Stop looking for justification or validation and leave this poor woman alone! It's not your sworn mission in life to ensure the children of your community receive stellar English instruction. If your teacher friend isn't up to snuff then she won't pass muster at her evaluations and she'll eventually be let go. A teacher's job is hard enough without their so called friends sitting in the wings sabotaging their careers and undermining their credibility. I sincerely hope you're in therapy.

Re: SopSop, comment #14
"In our country, education is woefully underfunded. And while there are some amazing teachers in the school system, too many abandon the career because they can't support their family off the salary, or they get burned out by the ever-increasing classroom size, the piling of bureaucracy and paperwork, and the idea that teaching the children is secondary to playing politics."

Spending on K-12 education increased more than 40% between FY2001 and FY2009. Do you think education has markedly increased during that period? Personally, I don't think the problem is solely down to money.

Re: Mike

The fact that spending has increased doesn't mean it's not still underfunded. The money is being misdirected in the system. And no, the problem isn't solely money, it's also politics (as I said), overworked teachers (as I said), and a low standard for who we hire to educate our kids (also, as I said).

LW3: It seems most people feel that as long as a teacher is a nice person, it doesn't matter whether she is qualified to do the job.
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Though your spelling skills may be superior, it appears you have a problem with reading comprehension, because I don't think you're getting the correct message. It's not about "nice" -- it's about what makes a kid want to learn.

I did pretty well in spelling and grammar, and I believe those skills help a person. Still, the world has changed enough that I don't put spelling at the top of my list for what I want in a teacher. If this teacher has engaged the students and made them excited to learn, that's more important than spelling drills, in my book. I think computers and spell-check software have bumped the need to remember "is it i before e?" down on the list of critical skills -- much like the Palmer method of penmanship and bumped UP the need to know when good spelling is critical (essays, publication, grant applications, formal letters, businesses) and how to get it for those occasions (spell check, memorization of words that frequently appear on purchase orders or in a history class, etc).

Engaging students has become far more critical, because teachers can no longer count on support from parents, and there are so many more diversions competing for the kids' attention once they're out of the classroom for the day.

I can't imagine why something about your teeth is required disclosure before intimacy. What if she dyes her hair color? Should she also disclose that beforehand? What if she shaves her legs? Should she tell him that in case he thought they were naturally smooth? What is it about sex that makes something about your teeth required disclosure?

Re: SopSop

Many more kids are being identified as having some type of special need today- so there's a reason for spending to increase while it remains underfunded!

Re: Jodie

Yes, that's one of many reasons.

LW1 -"I would apologize in a minute if I only knew what for. What can I do?"..... um, I'm going to out on limb here and suggest that maybe, just maybe you should talk to the guy who you're having the problem with. Yeah. Bear with me here. I'll give you some magic words to use, "Bob, it seems I've done something to offend you. I'd like to make it right. Can we talk about it? What did I do?" That's called starting a conversation. I don't go along with the idea that your husband has to talk to his sister who then has to talk to her husband and all that crap. You are having an issue with him so you need to talk to him.
LW2 - Whoa! Like the ladies said, not an issue yet. Don't worry about it. It's one of those things that will be discovered in it's own time.
LW3 - No, no one felt that just being nice was good enough. Being an engaging teacher is important however. Teachers not only teach the actual skill they also instill a desire to learn and question and problem solve. It's more than just the mechanics of ABC or 1+1.... It's about inspiring them to go farther and taking the next step and asking the next question. My partner has been teaching 1st/2nd grade for 30 years. He can't spell for shit and his writing skills are weak. He is in demand as a teacher and his students excel because they love his class. They also correct his spelling :-) If you think that spelling skills is all you friend will need to be successful and good at what she does then all I can say is I hope you're not involved in education. Should/could she get better? Probably, but you don't need to get this worked up over it either.

LW3 - I have a cousin who is a teacher in a northern state. Her brother lives in a southern state and she is OBSESSED with her nieces' and nephews' education and feels they are not being properly educated. It all started when her one nephew told her something he learned in school and she said it was wrong. She believes in the "southerners are dumb hicks" stereotype and has hounded her brother and his wife to meet with the teachers and quiz them, more or less. My cousin and his wife have told her to buzz off, the kids and the teachers are fine, but she is STILl obsessed over it. She honestly believes their children are going to turn out to be stupid. Her oldest nephew is in all honors classes but she claims that "their" honors classes don't even compare to "our" honors classes. I love her, but she needs to get a life and so do you. You should only be interferring if your friend is abusing the kids.

Re: Mike
I used to teach high school math/physics and left the profession b/c there were too many opportunities for my BS in physics in the private sector; I just couldn't justify working for nothing and being treated like shit, both from students are administration. Most people in this country don't value education; they pay it lip service but most of the parents I dealt with didn't give a rat's ass if their kids knew anything, just that they passed. People have become too comfortable with what they see as the "right" to education and are comfortable with the notion that if they fuck up the govt will take care of them. Go to China and fuck up and you will starve; most of the immigrants that come here do quite well as they really value the educational opportunity that they didn't have in their home country. This is an uncomfortable truth that few people wish to admit but I've actually heard students comment that they'll just go on welfare, no big deal. Also, spending on special ed programs has gone through the roof and these programs are expensive and you don't get much bang for your buck; I'm not in any way suggesting that special ed kids don't deserve to be educated but if you spend a ton of money on a kid with an IQ of 90 you're not going to get much for it. We simply ignore our bright kids, assuming they can handle themselves, then shake our heads and wonder why we can't produce scientists. I'm not sure spending has increased across the board like you've said, maybe in certain states and districts but here in Florida that is not the case; they don't fund education well at all here in the south.

LW3 - OK so obviously you are a type A English expert. Keep in mind she is teaching special education and not advanced English. Believe me, a run on sentence is nothing compared to a kid struggling to read with dyslexia. Usually by the time a learning disability has been identified and a child is a put in Special Education their self esteem has already been traumatized. Re-building that child's sense of self should be the most important, not if they know “right” from “write”. Once they get on the right track they will learn “there” from “their” or how to stop a run on sentence. Have patience.

Re: Little Cookie
The honors classes here in the south DON'T compare to the classes up north, and I say this as someone that's taught them. Here in FL, they shuttle everyone that's passed the FCAT into AP and honors classes. The passing bar for the FCAT is around 50% for reading and 30% for math, which is an "F" by normal testing standards so when these kids fail the AP exam or their honors end of course exam it's all the teachers fault. And for the record, I do not think all southerners are dumb hicks, though I have known a few.

Just as an aside, I took a peek at a .pdf that's floating around on the web -- the Harvard entrance exam from 1869. I'd be willing to bet that most Harvard GRADUATES today could not pass it.

Not because Harvard has dumbed down, and not because the best and brightest of that time were so much better than the best and brightest of today. Simply because the emphasis on what an education should include (and who should be allowed to attend school to become educated) has changed so radically in the nearly 150 years since then.

It's worth Googling "Harvard Entrance Exam from 1869" to see.

Kim: I totally agree.

when I moved her, I moved to an area that has an extremely rigorous school districut curriculum. My niece and nephew went to "country" schools (they live on a farm) and were in honors classes that were BEHIND my daughter's regular classes.

This is where we really need more standardized educational standards. It's not fair that my daughter's grades are behind those of her cousins because she's in a more challenging school and that grades are a big part of what colleges look at for entrance requirements and scholarships.

My other complaint here (sorry, off topic) is that people who "home school" have an even bigger advantage on the grade scale. I do not home school, but I know several people who do and it's so subjective. One family literally spends all day studying religion, another family uses the time to take trips. I would love to hear from posters who home school.

That said, and getting BACK on topic, I'd rather have a teacher who wants to teach a child HOW to love learning, then some uptight ruler waving nazi who is worried about grammar and not the message BEHIND the grammar. As another poster said, if a kid loves to learn, they will learn that themself eventually. But those whip crackin' teachers who constantly belittle kids actually do more harm in the educational process than a teacher with poor grammar and a heart of gold.

re LW3 - While it is important that teachers use correct grammar both verbally and in writing, as has been pointed out - many teachers have wonderful skills that far outweigh any spelling and grammatical errors. I have received email messages from all of my children's teachers thus far that contain typos. I don't care. I feel strongly that they have all also been strongly attuned to my children despite large class sizes and that they are all wonderful educators. Also, while of course teachers need to provide the proper example for students; children learn far more from their family and friends. If parents use words like "ain't" at home and their peers use words like "yo" and "whodat" so will children if their parents do not set the standard for how they expect their children to speak. Finally, while our school system needs to be designed to equip ALL children for further education and eventually the workforce. It is the responsibility of the parent to insure that children get what they need from their education. If a child falls outside of the norm - either exceptionally bright and needs to be challenged academically or falling behind, the parents need to step up because our school systems are not well designed to handle those outliers. Sure tutoring is expensive, but so is the monthly cable TV bill. Which one should be the higher priority?

Re: nanchan
I agree that it is far more important to have a teacher that wants to be there and motivates her students. So many teachers that I knew were there because they got a worthless degree they couldn't do anything with and teaching was their only option. Maybe if they are teaching English the grammar is a problem but this lady teaches special ed; let the lady work. On the topic home schooling, I would like to point out that while public school teachers are required to have at least a bachelor's degree and to take constant professional development courses, parents that home school simply have to have a high school diploma. I've never been able to sqare this in my mind.

LW 3,

You still don't get it, do you? Being a special ed teacher has nothing to do with being "nice" and everything to do with being able to teach the students in her class the topics that help them function from day to day in a manner that they can understand and hopefully retain. Sometimes, that means that learning fifth grade English takes a back seat to "how to get dressed all by yourself!"

Contrary to your protestations, you are jealous and vindictive. Because this woman doesn't write in a non professional setting up to your standards, you want to report her to her employer (which has many possibilities, including getting her fired.) What is going on in your head that this is remotely okay?

Furthermore, instead of getting all hung up on the idea of reporting her to her boss, why don't you try something revolutionary like opening a dialogue with her? Take her to coffee, bring up the reviews and go from there.

LW3 - I agree with your concern. This is one reason why our kids' lack of writing skills is a national disgrace. It's no surprise half of them end up taking remedial writing classes once they hit college - they are totally ill-prepared for the more rigorous writing demands at that level and have to be "fixed". If their public school teachers can't express themselves appropriately, how on earth are the students going to learn to? What about sloppy work they do on reports, written tests, etc.? If the teacher can't write either, how is s/he going to be able to recognize errors and correct what the student turns in? Sure, a teacher should be "dynamic" and engaging, but these are only two of the attributes of good teaching. Being able to understand the skills you are teaching is also a component. When you demonstate you're clueless about correct grammar, spelling, usage, etc., then the children will end up clueless, too.
That being said, I don't recommend reporting this teacher to your superiors. I DO suggest you invite her for a cup of coffee and, as a fellow professional, tactfully open a dialogue.

@Kim - re home schooling - Most states have very stringent requirements for home schooled students. They work along side teachers and the children have regular meetings some on phone and others in person so that the teachers can verify the child is being taught according to the state curriculum and that the child is meeting the standards required for a passing grade in the classroom. In addition, the children are required to take standardized tests - in the local zone school periodically. I know this is true of Florida and Maryland as I have friends who have home schooled in both of those states. It does take a very organized and dedicated parent who is willing to put in the time - especially for younger students; but it can work out well. I personally do not think I could do this, but one of my friends in particular has successfully homeschooled two exceptionally gifted children. The education they have recieved has far exceeded the education that would get in the public school system.

Also, in my state, teachers are required to have a teaching certificate and they are expected to continue their education as part of their job requirements. Teachers who do not meet the educational requirements can and have been terminated.

Re: SARAH MARROW My special needs brother talked too fast. And I can see now he should have had ortho for mouth widening--his speech would have been much better--but braces were not a given as part of general healthcare as it is now. But my brother could talk, and talk, and talk---I think that is trait totally passed down! We all got it.
RE LUCY: That was my point. Not knowing WHO has dental work, implants, invisable braces or partials. And yes, at 57, I still have perfect teeth--my dentist loves me--3 times a year. (As a diabetic, it is important for dental care to be often.) I wear a bite splint on the upper at night. Lessened migraines so kept it. Keeps my jaw where it should stay.
AN FYI---I grew up in SD, small town, where one of 8 test towns in USA--for flouride in water. About 1960--and for 20 years-- they built and ran it. Japanese company came in--it was their baby. Has its pros and cons. My sister's teeth are not so good, brownish/yellow. We saw the same dentist, drank the same water. She started smoking age 15-16, I never did. In all these years, she has never had restorative done. She sees the dentist when she has a toothache. Has money, etc. Lives 1/2 block from the dentist. No reason other than maybe fear.
RE: GEMINILEE PARTS of speech. Depending on when you were in school learning it in English (or language as some schools list it) is the circa you learned it in. Parts of speech have many names. My English/language instructor called it one thing, my children learned it differently and now my grandchildren call the same parts of speech an entirely different name. Same with the math. Every so often 'brainEacts' decide to pump up and create new names. It is still the same meaning. Then it becomes a trend in use. Remember when the word BLOG came into use? And now a daily word.
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The education thing. We have many AP classes, and about 50% of the student body applies to get into them. Numbers are limited to get in. There are a few state colleges that help set up the courses with the teachers here. The students MUST pass the testing from the college to get the credit. One thing, with the AP English, those students don't get to choose other opportunities like Mass Communication, etc AP science has helped jump many pre-med students right out the HS door into 2nd year post.
We have many of our students doing POST while in HS. If your GPA is good and you are on track with all credits, you do college classes on campus THERE. More generals than specific programming (like nursing, doctor, etc). The HS has to pay your tuition. Those that do POST often skip the AP. Can't do both at the same time. Different colleges and fees. Both paid by the HS.
And here the home schooling all must be tested out in certain areas by the state Dept of Ed. Not just 'you passed'. And some do partial homeschool and then some high school classes.

Amen, Carla and Mike H.!! @Carla: How doe she have any idea how this woman performs in the classroom?? Her only example was her Facebook postings… That's a social media that she uses in her SPARE time; it doesn't reflect her teaching abilities.
And I agree, Mike, that this all about her ego. If so many people are telling you that you seem “spiteful” and “jealous”, maybe it's time to examine your own behavior….

And who wouldn't worry about an upcoming evaluation?? A few days before my 1 year eval., my boss told me what a great job I was doing. The morning of my actual evaluation, I was so nervous!

Or maybe the special ed teacher is Lolley, and the LW should have some genuine concerns. Haha, I just had to go there! :)

lW1-
"My husband mentioned this to another relative and was told that it was because of me. "
Isn't that nice that the entire family seems to know what the problem is, but not you or your husband - since it seems he was given no further details. And interesting that the man seems not to have a problem freezing his own brother out as well, rather than man up and discuss the problem like a adult with your husband.

I would suggest for HIM to go back to either his brother or the relative and get to the bottom of this.

LW2-
Unless you are planning to put down your partial into a glass BEFORE you get started on the hanky-panky, I really don't think the full disclosure of your great infirmity is in need of a megaphone just yet.

LW3-
Hell is paved with good intentions - providing your intentions are good, of which I'm not sure anymore, seeing that this is your second go at it and you just won't let go, in spite of being told both OTL and BTL to MYOB.

"Special needs" are called that for a reason - because there are many other things that the kids need to learn before they get to grammar and style, which is pretty far down the list of priorities. The people reviewing her are best suited to assess if she's doing her job or not.

If you were so genuinely concerned about her English, as opposed to scoring a point, you would take your friend aside and gently suggest she needs remedial English. Instead, you're all set to rat her out, under the pretense of "getting her help", and writing to an advice column TWICE, you're so anxious for someone to agree with you. Then when the shit hits the fan, none of the fallout will be your fault, you will be the torturer who was just following orders. You sound like a REAL piece of work, lady.

You're not trying to get her help, you're trying to get her fired. You know very well that what you're doing is wrong, which why you're so insistent on getting someone's approval. Continue in this vein and I don't know if your friend will be without a job, but YOU, Mrs Buttinsky. will be without a friend. And it would be your just desserts, as your friend already IS without a friend herself - with friends like you, who needs enemies.

Not to mention that you're a fine one to talk, as geminilee aptly pointed out. Sheesh.

Please disregard my last post. Chris summed up my feelings perfectly.

Re: Casey

Why? I LIKED the way you put it, even if I liked Chris's too!

LW1: What did you do? I have a very novel idea - ask! And do it yourself, not through your husband or any other 3rd person who is not inside B-I-L's head (unless they have their crystal ball out.) I have been constantly amazed at how communication often clears up, not just misunderstandings, but arguments and a whole host of other problems.
Disclaimer: I am cranky today, but this would have irritated me even if I were not! So today, put on your big-girl pants.

@hedgehog
I googled the exam and looked at it. There is nothing in it that I didn't have in high school OR middle school (Iike algebra and basic trig, and geography), except for Latin and Greek. My current freshmen (at a third-tier state U.) could pass the math parts with flying colors. In fact, it would be easy for them. Geography, I am not sure. No Latin or Greek. BUT, they probably could give any Harvard entrant from 1869 a run for his money on biology, chemistry, and physics. It's not that these subjects did not exist in 1869, but major developments in them came later than that. In fact the periodic table was first published in that year.
It's not that the university students of the past were smarter or better educated. It is that they were richer, more privileged in their social status, and that what we value in education has changed. I can bet you dollars to donuts that none of those Harvard entrants or grads from the mid-1800s could design robotics like our (again, third-tier college) engineering students do, or would consider it worth his while.
Thomas Edison never went to a university. He was considered mentally deficient in elementary school. His mother home-schooled him. I don't know whether she taught him Latin or Greek, or whether he, as an avid reader, was an autodidact in these subjects, but his proficiency or the lack of such did not seem to have hampered his career as an inventor.
Classical liberal arts education has its value. It does teach you to think critically, to analyze, to solve problems in a variety of areas. But its not the only valuable kind of education. And I say this as a person who teaches in a Humanities and Liberal Arts division and who values the ability to write well tremendously.

Re: Joyce/MN, comment 36:
"And yes, at 57, I still have perfect teeth--my dentist loves me--3 times a year."

Wow! What kind of dentist do you visit? Obviously one with a reclining chair.

Re: Chris, # 17. You are such a dirty dog!!! ;0) I did get it and was amused.

LW1 - I appreciate how this "cool" treatment feels. I went through the same thing but it was someone within an old circle of friends. Weeks went by and I did my best to handle the sudden rejection and began to ask questions. I later learned that another "so-called" friend in the group created lies in an effort to alienate me from this dear friend. I was not only angry - but I was also hurt that 1.) Someone can be so outright dirty and malicious and 2.) That a friend who I assumed to have a close relationship with chose to close the door on our relationship on a foundation of lies and deceit - AND never gave me the benefit of the doubt.
Needless to say, it is best to just ask the person what is going on. If you have wronged someone, own it. And if you haven't - stand up for yourself with class and dignity.

LW3: there is a difference betwen someone who is uninformed or uneducated (which I doubt that your friend is) and someone who has verbal processing issues. Now most people are aware of their problem and may or may not have access to help. I have a friend whose husband is a very successful high school agriculture teacher but is dylexic. He knows it and works around it with his wife's help (she is also a teacher and writer). I can see where special ed kids could do fine with a teacher who admits dyxlexia and they work on it together--and the kids can see that a disability is not fatal to their success at what they can do.
I have a good friend who is highly skilled in a technical profession, with several graduate degrees, whose is spelling slips occasionally. He finally asked me to stop correcting the mistakes in the previous message part of his emails--I was doing it almost unconsciousnessly. He's doesn't take the time to obsess about the spelling when he writes me, and I've learned to appreciate his messages and ignore the spelling.
LW1: Excellent chance there is a malicious talebearer in the system .

LW1 - It's called communication. If you otherwise had a good relationship with your BIL and this is recent, ask him what happened and then hear him out. Yes, there's the fear of rejection or that he may not tell you or say he expects you to know, but the longer this festers the worse it'll get for both of you... and if he does refuse to tell you, then at least you made the effort, and from there you can have your hubby appeal to his sister and BIL to try and get to the bottom of it.

If that doesn't work, then you'll both have to let it go. Some people just get a wild hair up their rear ends and hold an irrational grudge, and there's little you can do to control that. It stinks to high heaven but if it isn't your fault, it isn't your fault, and if you really did offend but your BIL won't let you repair it, then the onus is on him, IMHO.

LW2 - I can understand your worries... I think in some ways this is similar to LW1 in that your fears are understandable, and if you talk to him about this and he rejects you as per your fears, then you've done all you can. Plus, really, if he reveals through that conversation that he can't accept you as is, why would you want him?

LW3 - You say you're not spiteful or jealous. I say you're a liar and that you're not only spiteful but vindictive if you are so determined to get your friend into trouble. What on earth did she ever do to you?

I ask, what kind of a friend are YOU? Are you really that perfect that you're entitled to criticize her? Have you even thought about how she might feel if she reads this column and figures out that these letters are not only about her, but that you wrote them? Have you thought about how much that would hurt her to know you're betraying her this way? Or are you simply more concerned about being right and self-satisfied?

Not only that but if her writing is that atrocious, don't you think her bosses will notice that and address it themselves? Ifyou agree, then why do you think you're so important and almighty as to think you have the right to go charging in their with your mental cavalry to flatten her career?

You also say nothing about whether she might have a learning disorder, meaning you probably don't know and you didn't bother to find out. Clearly you did read our comments BTL because you refer to "all the responses," but decided to dismiss that idea. If she does have an LD and you DO know it, then it goes to show how well you know and accept your friend that you'd smear her like this anyway, not to mention your lack of character.

I'm with those who are saying leave her alone and get a life. You've now tied up this column with two nasty-grams about your friend who you don't treat like a friend. You've dragged her out publicly *twice* to verbally flog her for her writing/English skills... and you're saying that's not spiteful? Please.

BTW, sorry if this is a repeat for you from my previous comment on this subject, but I'll say it again: I say this as someone who's not only a professional writer but who has had to write a TON of papers in the past year and a half as part of my Master's program. My papers have to follow a certain style guide and are under heavy scrutiny by professors who are mostly PhD holders. I have had professors dock my papers over things like paragraph flow, not using the proper spacing format in Word (even though the spacing was fine per the style guide, he just didn't like that my *settings* weren't the way he thought they should be), and the use of a synonym of a common word the teacher simply didn't like even though I used it in proper context.

So, I'm incredibly picky about the use of the English language too, and truth be told I have teacher friends who have poor writing skills. But good Lord woman, I couldn't fathom doing to them what you want to do to your friend. That's vicious by any stretch of the imagination. Period.

BTW, I'd also suggest a diplomatic conversation, but something tells me you're not capable of that.

Leave. Her. The. F. Alone. Okay? In fact do her a HUGE favor and just drop her as a friend, because really, you don't know how to be one.

Re: Spell Check Is Your Friend
I am also amazed that so many people think it is not that important that the special ed teacher does not have good English skills. The examples given in the original post were not typos or the occasional "there" for "their" but a gross ignorance of fundamental grammar and sentence structure. There should not be numerous errors, even casually posting on a FB page, unless the poster is unaware that there are errors.
Yes, a teacher should inspire children to learn, but a special ed teacher's assistant can do the inspiring as well as a teacher. The teacher needs to have both the knowledge and the capability to inspire.
It is not exactly a perfect example, but would you rather have a doctor with a good bedside manner but large gaps in medical knowledge or one who really knew medicine. Ideally you want both, but I prefer the knowledge.

*** OFF TOPIC ***

Michael, where are you? I miss reading your posts.

@ Mary Ann -- I second that, and also noticed he was missing! What we need is the dulcet tone of sweet Michael's posts!

Re: Ariana
"Thomas Edison never went to a university. He was considered mentally deficient in elementary school."
Minds who think differently are sometimes mistagged as deficient. Einstein was considered such in grade school.

One funny tale: later in life when his reputation as a genius was firmly established, he was having a meeting of the minds with some contemporary mathematician, who was scribbling equations on a blackboard as fast as he could push the chalk, all the while talking at a mile a second. Einstein raised his hand and, in a soft, humble voice, said, "Not so fast, please. I'm a bit slow."

Hee hee hee! I guess that lends credence to the French saying that goes, "Small, little train nevertheless goes far"!

@PS
Yep. Right on!

LW 3 - Has anyone given it a thot that, just maybe, LW is after her friend's job? Deep down, she'd really like to turn her in, but hasn't. And now, she's probably hoping that her friend screws up in the evaluations. It's like, she's lurking in the shadows.

TO MIKE: Just like the Women's Imaging Center I go to, for your lumpectomies, etc IT IS ALL WOMEN. And yes, they all have reclining surgical chairs--just like the surgical centers have for outpatient care. We have 2 dentists in our town, and women rule.

Re: Harriette
The the variety of occupations represented here on this post, how would you classify the rest of us, by our words, errors, etc. And for some--they use spell check, copy and paste. I don't know about any one else's visual, but my print on this forum is a very faint light blue. Have to put my glasses on to type.

The LW was nitpicking and anxious to tear apart this friend--which by the way--IS NOT HER FRIEND--if this is her single most important thing to accomplish in life.

LW1: The only thing I can think of is that, somewhere in the past, something happened between you and the BIL. Like most of the others on here have said, the only way to get to the bottom of this is to find out why he apparently dislikes you.

LW2: I can't believe you're so self-conscious about yourself that your boyfriend is going to notice your "oral" problem. Chances are he already has noticed ... and it doesn't appear that he cares. Otherwise, he would have pulled a Doug Simpson -- promptly canceled the date and said "Something suddenly came up."

LW3: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Beats head against table!) Harriette: I don't think it's so much that many of us don't think that basic English skills (in any profession, for that matter) are important. We do. Our concern seems to be that "Spell Check" is going on and on and on about this when it may not be her concern or her business. That's for her supervisors to point out. If it has been an issue, then I am sure it comes out in her annual reviews. And who in the f*** cares about Facebook or texting or other social media, teacher or not? I'd say you're a grandma and/or retired old-school English teacher who has too much time on her hands. Go down to the pedo shelter and teach the perverts to read!

My, such anger at the thought that perhaps Spellcheck has a point, although the motives behind the point may not be totally pure.
Bobaloo, it certainly IS that so many of the posters don't think that basic English skills are important. If they thought the skills were important there would have been more comments acknowledging Spellcheck's issues but not his/her motivation. There are supposed to be standards in education, and a feel good approach is not the only way to teach. One can motivate, give positive reinforcement and (gasp!) also impart the fundamentals of English and arithmetic.

And as for your last two sentences, I'd say you have far more time on your hands and not enough to worry about if you need to cast aspersions on someone who politely disagrees with the majority.

It annoys me when people type Spellcheck when they mean Spell Check. And since they did it twice, it is probably not just a typo.

Ariana -- you proved my point (which was NOT that people were smarter then -- which I explicitly said was not the case) but that most Harvard grads today would not be able to have gained entry to the university using the 1869 test -- because Greek and Latin were considered essential for entrance at that time.

I agree that a classical education is a very fine thing; in fact, I have often argued elsewhere on the internet that learning ANY second language is an invaluable tool in learning more about one's own language, and that a liberal arts education is well worth pursuing because it allows a student to see the interconnectedness of various disciplines. I'm neither arguing that the 1869 high school curriculum was better OR worse than contemporary curriculum, only that standards have changed. Just as it's neither here nor there that handwriting skills have deteriorated in the last 100 years, especially in the last 50, as phones, typewriters and computers began to supplement, and then pass, the written letter. It's no longer as crucial that your handwriting be legible to one and all if you primarily communicate using a keyboard.

Quick vote: Who thinks Harriette IS Spell Check in New York, AKA LW3, given she is the ONLY one willing to defend her?

I have a question regarding L3.
If the teacher is so worried about upcoming evaluations, why hasn't she done something about it? Why not take a class, get a tutor, read a book and learn some basic grammar? If those kids are so important to her, and she's such a "nice" person; why isn't she fixing the problem so she can keep her job?
And yes, I am one of those appalled that people think a teacher shouldn't know basic grammar. Because Special Ed kids are just lucky to have a warm body in the classroom?

Harriette - I make my living via the written word (and sometimes by correcting others' mistakes. You needn't try to convince me of its importance.

That said, I think LW3 is sticking her self-righteous nose in where it has no business. Unless she has a special needs child in her friend's class, or unless she is this teacher's supervisor, this is none of her affair. If she'd had a kid who'd suffered under previous teachers but was blossoming under this one, she might then understand these parents' position.

It is possible that this teacher has her own learning disability and has pointed that out to the kids. It could be that she is doing as another teacher referenced in these comments the day the original letter was published -- giving the kids extra credit when they catch her in a misspelling. She may be using software that corrects her spelling and grammatical errors before distributing homework assignments or tests. We don't know, and neither does LW, for good reason -- she is not this teacher's supervisor. Who presumably has a more complete picture of this teacher's skills than LW does.

(And let a teacher's aide to the inspiring? Seriously? The aides are not the ones leading the lessons and making them relevant to the kids. That would be the teacher.)

PS
What a sad commentary on some of posters in this thread that someone who does not agree is viciously attacked by various others. PS, I don't think you even comprehended what I was saying other than it was not what you were saying. I think Spellcheck's concerns were valid, but perhaps not the motives behind them.

When you are relatively young, it is very important to think you have all the answers, even being self-righteous when someone does not follow the straight and narrow expected path (that is Spellcheck). He/She does not yet understand that this situation is not his/her battle to fight.
Unfortunately, even as we grow older some people still retain the self-righteousness that their's is the only correct opinion (other posters).

I am saying there is room for nuance here. I am still amazed at how emotional and vitriolic the responses to my postings have been.

Mary Ann and Cher, thank you for your kind words. I'm okay. I've just been busy. I hope both of you--and everyone else who reads this--is doing well.

are doing well. Woops.

Harriette: It appears I have to speak (or write) a little bit slower for you to comprehend what some of us are trying to say.

I. Think. The. Motives. Behind. Spell. Check's. Letter. Were. Not. Geniune. But. Sticking. Her. Nose. Where. It. Doesn't. Belong.

The. Issue. Is. Between. Her. Student's. Parents. And. Her. Supervisors. And. The. District. Superintendent. Not. Miss. Busybody.

This. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Feel. Good. Education. But. That. The. Letter. Writer. Has. Made. Her. Point. And. Won't. Let. It. Drop.

(And yes, I do agree there ought to be standards in education. Here in Iowa, they are about to debate just that with the new "One Unshakable Vision" education plan outlining rigorous standards for teachers and students.)

Re: Gwen
Could be! Now that you mention it.

@Harriette
I believe the point many posters (including me) are trying to impart (whether they be polite or not, tsk-tsk, Bobaloo), is that while basic English skills are essential for normal people, specials needs students have a ways to go before they get to that, if there ever make it to that level. They've got their work cut out to just learn basic life skills, and so English ones are pretty far down the list. One thing at a time, and you can't run until you first walk.

@Hedgehog
I had started classical education, but it disappeared the way of the dodo in Quebec before I could complete it. I can say that what little Latin I did was INVALUABLE when I got started on German as a voice student.

@JMM
I think a lot of people do not realise that special ed students don't have the same needs as regular ones.

It is not that special eds kids only need a warm body in the room... they need someone who will instil the love of learning, and a yearning towards self-reliance. Because some warmhearted special-eds teacher will have accomplished that (with or without the typos, which can even be used as a teaching monent when the students gets extra points for pointing them out), they may be able to get to basic English skills when they are at that point. Special eds kids... well, they get special ed. It is not the same same as for regular students, otherwise it wouldn't be special ed, would it?

@Michael
Yeah, careful with the whoops, you're being checked with a spell... You better watch out, it knows when you're awake, it knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake! ;-D

@Harriette, actually, I think you keep missing a lot of important points in this discussion.

Let's be clear here -- the LW doesn't have a child in her friend's class, and in fact doesn't seem to have any direct knowledge of her friend's performance in the classroom. LW is *solely* basing her justification for butting in on her interactions with her friend *outside the classroom*. Not even close interactions -- just some Facebook posts!

Let's also be clear that LW's teacher friend didn't "win" her job in a lottery, and even though she did know the principal she would not have been allowed to skip all the normal procedures or just show up unannounced to the classroom. She had to interview for the job. She had to submit a resume and meet with the principal and possibly a group of teachers on the review committee. She may have even been observed and she would have had to submit references. Depending on the school district, the vetting process may have been even more substantial than a regular corporate job.

If LW's friend's problems with grammar were SO very serious that it would be jeopardizing these kids' futures, it would have become BLATANTLY OBVIOUS long before her first day on the job. No principal would have given her the job just because they knew each other if she was so bad it was harmful to the children. That's career suicide.

So, either LW is wildly exaggerating the problem OR it's simply that LW's friend doesn't feel like she has to be a grammar "stick in the mud" when she's updating her riends on Facebook. Her spelling and grammar may be perfectly sufficient when she's in the classroom, but LW wouldn't know that -- and yet still feels entitled to "tattle" on her friend to her bosses!

LW has ZERO experience of her friend's actual performance in the classroom, and is SOLELY basing her critique on Facebook postings plus her memory of how this person was in college, years ago. You know who is in a MUCH better position to comment on LW's friend's qualifications? The principal. The other teachers in that school. The parents of the students in her class. And if there are serious problems, one or more of those people would have already spoken up, or it will become clear enough in the pending evaluation.

LW is not in a position to know more about her friend's performance than the principal, then her friend's colleagues at the school, or the parents of her friend's students. If LW is so phenomenal with her own standards and so very concerned with children's welfare and futures, then I'm sure there's a lot of opportunities for her to volunteer in her own community, rather than interfering in another community when she doesn't even have all the facts pertinent to the matter at hand.

This isn't a grand political statement about lower standards in the classroom, or some indictment on teachers unions or the entire American educational system. This is someone who hasn't spent a single *second* of time in the classroom of the teacher she's so "up in arms" about, in a community that almost certainly isn't her own, and insisting on sticking her nose where it doesn't belong.

Mike H - If you nailed it any harder you'd go straight through the plank my friend. Excellent!

Harriette - You're not exactly swaying me from my suspicions... and it is not "vitriolic" to express that. Oh and yes, as a matter of fact, I do have emotions, but to express my thoughts on the topic is not "emotional" - it's expressing my opinions. If you have a problem with that, you don't have to read 'em.

You, however, are pretty martyrific to project all these supposed histrionics onto everyone BTL in response to your comments. Way to make it all about you.

Re: Mike H

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP. Not in a complete sentence, not proper form BUT CLAP CLAP CLAP anyway.

PS I sure would like to see what LW 3's grocery list looks like. Mine? My 5 yr old granddaughter makes it out--part of our lessons in writing and spelling. Want milk? set the milk carton in front of her to copy the label. And so on.

LW1 (Clueless): I had something like this happen to me once, and it was a simple misunderstanding. I was dancing with my boyfriend's mom's regular escort (a man then in his 70s) at a big social event with San Francisco's Russian-American community (a fun bunch!). "Vovka" was usually a rather quiet and introverted guy, but on this evening, he was enjoying himself more than usual. He wasn't drunk or anything, just uncharacteristically chatty and outgoing, which was delightful. Sometime later, I noticed he was decidedly stand-offish, even cool, to me. I didn't know what was wrong. I asked "Ivan", my boyfriend, if something had happened to make Vovka mad, and he said he'd had words with Vovka about being "abusive" to me!! I was horrified, as I hadn't said that at all ... then it hit me. After Vovka and I had danced a few times, I had told Ivan that Vovka was very "EFFUSIVE", which means enthusiastic, very outgoing, bubbly. In the noise of the crowd, he'd misunderstood my words, and in a horrible way. I immediately rushed over to Vovka and Ivan's mom, "Irina", and couldn't get the words out fast enough that I'd been misheard. When I told them the word I'd used and explained its meaning, and they realized how the two words sounded so much alike (plus they're immigrants, and speak heavily accented English), and that I was actually complimenting Vovka, everything changed in a flash. Visible relief all around, a toast to "glasnost and perestroika" with shots of vodka, and all was well. Having that conversation right away was the right thing to do, and I suggest you do the same as soon as possible.

Hi everyone, I am LW3, nice to meet you all. I wrote this follow up letter last summer and to be honest, I had kind of forgotten about it. I mentioned in the letter that my friend lost her last job when the school year ended, but funny enough that part seems to be edited out. Anyway, I didn't call the Board of Ed or do anything else in regards to her, so she lost her job all on her own. She got a new job which she mostly complains about.

I'm grateful that a few folks seem to understand my concerns.

I was amused that this was printed today because I had dinner with someone last night who was telling me he had to let a bunch of people at his computer consulting company go. The reason? Their lack of basic written English skills. Basically he got tired of having to edit and review and rewrite every report and proposal being sent out. Perhaps the folks on this forum will think of my friend as a Nazi, but really, all he wants is for his company to be run professionally. In his world (and in many worlds), professional behavior includes basic grammar and spelling. It's just the way it is.

The teacher in question routinely spells the name of our city wrong. Yes, really. In fact, I have never seen her spell it correctly. In fact, she writes "infact" as one word, "aswell" as "ofcourse". Again, I ask, would you want your child in her classroom? I wouldn't. I don't care how "nice" she is. What is the point of encouraging someone to learn if you don't know the material yourself? No one is saying you need to be a Nazi or perfect or anything like that. And what on earth do I have to be spiteful or jealous of? That doesn't even make any sense. I am not a teacher nor do I have any desire to be one. What does get me upset is thinking about the poor education these kids are getting. All of you leaving me such hateful comments, how can you not see that? I just can't help but think in twenty years one of them will be let go from their computer consulting job because of teachers like this girl. All students, special ed included, deserve more than just a warm body in the room, they deserve so much more; they deserve a fair chance to learn at least the basics and to be taught correctly by someone qualified. I can't imagine how or why that is seen as a negative or spiteful thing.

By the way, I'm over 40 and so is my friend.

Wishing peace and love and happy holidays to all, yes, all of you...

I'm thoroughly amazed at the lack of knowledge of what "Special Ed" encompasses. Kids who have ADHD can be in Special Ed. Kids who have dyslexia can be in Special Ed. I think any of them would be offended by the notion that their education should be more about learning "basic life skills" than spelling, grammar, math, etc. Special Ed doesn't always mean the lowest end of the spectrum. A lot of bright, fully-functioning kids are in special ed because they learn differently.

Re: Melinda

We do see quite well the need for a proper education - when it comes to regular kids. She teaches special ed, where the kids may have a lot of catching up to do before they even get to the difference between 'aswell' and 'as well'.

If her English really is that bad AND it affects the needs of the children she happens to have under her care, then it is the job of the people reviewing her to determine what needs to be done to remedy the situation.

" And what on earth do I have to be spiteful or jealous of? That doesn't even make any sense."
Well, evidently, there IS something there that makes you spiteful on some level, because you just won't let go. IF her English really is that bad, I really don't see how they need your tattling to notice that all by their poor selves. Why are you so determined to rat her out? It doesn't make any sense indeed.

One last time, Melinda: This. Is. Not. Your. Fight. FORGET IT.

@SopSop
"Special Ed doesn't always mean the lowest end of the spectrum"
Of course not. But since we don't know exactly what special needs she is attending, we can't be sure what skills (or lack thereof) make a difference. I don't doubt that the people who hired her and are reviewing her will know if she needs correct spelling to teach these kids in particular. If she is not doing the job, she'll either be let go or presented with a mandatory course of action to fix the problem. But it is not the LW/Melinda's place to stick her nose into this. She's being a busybody - and a very determined one at that.

Re: Lise Brouillette

"But since we don't know exactly what special needs she is attending, we can't be sure what skills (or lack thereof) make a difference." So, because you don't *know*, you prefer to make the assumption that best fits your view on the situation.

You clearly don't have an inkling of how the education system works. It's not ever as simple as "She's not doing the job, we'll fire her." Any teacher you talk to can tell you stories of teachers they're forced to work with who are downright awful at their job, and yet they remain in the system year after year because it's extremely difficult to get fired as a teacher.

I'm pretty familiar with special needs and the wide range of those needs. I know that often kids with special needs get made fun of for dyslexia or other learning disabilities, for undiagnosed/uncorrected hearing problems, for slow speech, for autism and other conditions that require extra help with things like basic conversational skills. I had a kid who was special needs for the first three years of his schooling, which gave me a pretty good look at what was happening in the program, and I have friends who have worked with special needs kids.

I'm therefore aware that any problems with family life (divorce, alcoholism, poverty, drug abuse, emotional neglect) tend to hit those kids especially hard, further isolating them and encouraging them to just turn off at school. It takes a teacher special skills to prevent that from happening...or to break through and reach kids who have already turned off of school and fallen further behind. That is so much more than "nice" that it boggles my mind to think people would value spelling skills over teaching skills.

Melinda, I think you were brave for posting here, and I thank you for the further clarification. By your own admission, however, you are NOT a teacher, which explains a lot to me about your perception of what teachers contend with every day and what skills they need to bring to the classroom, particularly as it applies to special needs kids. "A warm body in the classroom" is incredibly demeaning -- especially if your friend finally persuaded one kid's mom to pursue extra therapy for him, if she has advocated strongly within the school bureaucracy for extra services for any of her kids, if she has caused a kid who hasn't spoken in 3 years in a classroom to take the risk and actually say something.

That kind of skill can cause a supervisor to overlook the spelling/grammar problems. If she doesn't have those kinds of skills to compensate, then she will lose her job, as you say she did.

SopSop -- it used to be a lot harder to lose a job as a teacher than it is today, thanks to budget cuts.

Re: hedgehog

True, but it's infinitely easier to be laid off as a teacher than to be fired. And it's usually "Last in, first out" in a layoff situation, which still leaves the good teachers to contend with working with awful ones.

@Melinda (assuming you aren't an impostor)

While I guess I appreciate your persistence, the fact that you seem to have completley misunderstood the vast majority of objections to your stance continues to trouble me. You've once again distilled it down to “people are defending her because she's nice”, and yet nobody's actually suggested that at all. You either don't have a response to all the real objections, or you didn't comprehend what people were actually saying about your letter.

Here's the thing, Melinda -- not being able to spell a concept does not in any way mean that you can't help someone understand that concept. There's a LOT more to teaching than simply spelling. You admit you're not interested in teaching, and that's a GOOD thing, because you really don't seem to comprehend what's involved, and might make a pretty darned poor teacher. (“Well, sure, they don't understand the history assignment, Principal Skinner -- but look how great their spelling is!”)

You haven't once set foot into her classroom. You have no idea what other competencies she brings to her teaching. Your only experience of her is over Facebook and your school years together 20 years ago. And yet you continue to think that your opinion and insight into this situation is far greater than the principal, the other teachers in the school, and the parents of her students -- all of whom have much more at stake in her performance and a much greater direct experience of her performance than you do.


The fact is that you are NOT as qualified as any of these other people to comment on her abilities as a teacher, and yet you can't seem to let this go. That is troubling. That makes you a busybody, not a concerned friend.

Even more troubling is that you have two letters in to Annies, their responses, and 2-3 columns worth of comments, and you still don't seem to have understood any of the above. You seem very self-involved here, for whatever reason -- jealousy, spitefulness, boredom, dissatisfaction with your own life, need for self-aggrandizement, need to “be right”, whatever. But really you should just drop this, and frankly de-friend this person on Facebook, because you aren't her friend, you're really not. Friends don't behave the way you are behaving.

As for your little anecdote about the computer consulting company, it's a little too perfect and a little too convenient to be entirely believable. You just happened to have this letter printed today and you just happened to go out to dinner with a friend who just happened to have to lay off a bunch of people for the exact same reason you are concerned about your friend the teacher? Color me skeptical. But -- if there's any truth to this at all -- frankly it's much more an indictment of your friend's management ability, because just how lax and inattentive is he as a hiring manager that a “bunch” of unqualified people got hired in the first place? Seems to me he needs to go to a remedial management skills course, because maybe he could explain away a single hire going wrong this way, but a “bunch”? Not credible.

Bottom line is that you say you are “upset” that these kids are getting a “poor education” and yet you have no qualifications to judge that, nor do you have any direct observations of her teaching ability to back your assertion up. Leave this matter to those who know better and have more at stake to make a better evaluation. Stop thinking that you are so insightful that you know better than everyone else involved what's going on.

Re: Lise Brouillette

My point in being Roddy Piper here was because I think Harriette does not understand most of our points of view. While that is most certainly her right, and that it is clear she understands basic English and how important it is in functioning in society, I am put off by her adamant defense of LW3, especially when it isn't about the teacher's abilities but defending a colleague's overstepping her authority.

Which gets me to wonder -- since some LWs do check in and post on here: Harriette, are you in fact, "Spell Check"?

When Spell Check gets to be an administrator and gets to do evaluations of the teacher, then I'll accept her opinions.

(BTW: As for the Roddy Piper bit, this has to do with professional wrestling and a classic "Piper's Pit" where Piper -- in mocking Polynesian wrestler Jimmy Snuka and his apparent "intelligence," spoke in one-word sentences because he (Piper) didn't believe Snuka was understanding his questions. You'll have to watch the clip on Youtube or a tape/DVD to see what I mean.)

@Bobaloo - see post #71 - Melinda is Spell Check. I get your point, I was nodding my head on the first post right up until you told Harriette to "teach perverts to read". Why was that necessary?

@Harriette and Melinda - I have little to add as Mike H. summed up every thought that I didn't even know I had on this matter. You both really should be pulling the rafters of straw out of your own eyes instead of being so concerned about the one straw in the eye of Melinda's alleged "friend".

The fact that spending has increased doesn't mean it's not still underfunded. The money is being misdirected in the system. And no, the problem isn't solely money, it's also politics (as I said), overworked teachers (as I said), and a low standard for who we hire to educate our kids (also, as I said).
****

I'd add in also a failure by many to recognize the larger role schools now have to play -- feeding children in poverty, screening for physical problems and learning disabilities, watching for abuse, teaching basic social skills, encouraging physical activity in an increasingly sedentary culture, assisting children in unstable home situations whee education is low priority -- all of which are good and necessary, but problems that most teachers of 50-60 years ago never faced.

Other big increases in education spending in the last 40 years or so has come from the need to educate children previously institutionalized or kept at home as "uneducable" -- i.e., special education; changing technology, i.e., computers, software; and transportation costs, ii.e., fuel to run the buses.

Are you people nuts??? You seriously want your children to be taught by someone who has little comprehension of the English language? If my child went to this school and wrote "whether" instead of "weather", I would be livid. Children are like sponges: they soak up all they can. Who's to say that my child wouldn't screw up the words "whether" and "weather" because of what he learned in that class? It's certainly not a risk I would be willing to take.
I want my child to learn proper English. Not some version thereof. I don't want to have to repair the damage that some teacher did, whether she has the best intentions or not.
I know this person Melinda is talking about. I went to school with her and "proofread" her papers. This inevitably had me re-writing her papers. Comma splices, noun/verb tense shifts, mis-spellings, run-on sentences, you name it, she did it. It makes me very sad that this is what our educational system has come to. Are we really that desperate? I guess the answer is yes. The educational system does not have enough funding to hire teachers with basic English knowledge. Or maybe the powers-that-be don't have the wherewithal to test teachers on basic English.
All I can say is either of those excuses don't fly with me. Guess in order to have my child educated completely, I have to send him to private school. Once again, makes me sad...

Beth -- No, we are not nuts. I have 3 kids, the youngest of whom is 17. Over the years, I've seen some have had some abominable teachers. And, as someone who writes for a living, I can tell you I would FAR rather take it upon myself to repair "whether" and "weather" confusion than try to repair a kid who turns off school because a teacher favored boys over girls, assumed a kid wasn't very bright without bothering to check test scores or records from previous years, screamed at her class through much of the year because of stress in her personal life; was burned out himself; had no ability to control a rowdy class or any number of other shortcomings.

What makes you think you are in a position to evaluate this teacher's overall effectiveness? Do you have a child in the classroom? Have you watched her teach? Have you worked with her? Or are you basing your "knowledge" on her performance 20 years ago?

And as far as I'm concerned, your moral outrage over the state of education is mightily misplaced. YOU are just as responsible as she is for any students in her classroom who fail to learn the difference between "whether" and "weather". YOU rewrote her papers, enabling her to receive grades she did not earn and to eventually earn a teaching credential that indicated to basic competency in spelling and grammar. I hope that your child's private school teaches your child the difference between "proofreading" and "rewriting".

@Beth - America voted for a President who has little comprehension of the English language---- not once, but twice. He attended all of the best schools. Is his inability to utter one coherent sentence, even when given a speech written by someone else the fault of his teachers?

@Beth and Melinda - Last thought - since you both know this person and she trusted you enough to proof her work - did you ever once mention this issue to her? I mean to her actual face, not behind her back as you both seem so eager to do? Both of you either need to learn how to be a friend a truly have your friend's back by helping her instead of stabbing her in the back by trying to report her. Get a life.

LW1: It must be so exhausting to go through life desperate for everyone to like you. Take a break and get over yourself.

LW2: Tell him when he asks.

LW3: I would think that the people who hired her know she's an idiot. I would be more concerned with why she was hired in the first place. Do the people in charge there think special ed kids are throw away kids? That may explain how your idiot friend still has a job. Also, why do you want to be friends with an idiot? Does her existence make you feel better about yourself and your problems?

Re: SopSop

It's precisely because I am making no assumptions that I'm holding my position. In special ed, it is not only the academic slkills of the teacher which count and the glowing reviews of the parents will have an incidence.

And, as much as her FB posts may be lacking, the LW/Melinda has zero evidence that she is not using some corrective software before handing out whatever and/or using her weakness as a teaching moment, because she is not in the classroom. It can be a great motivator for the kids to see that a special ed kid like themselves managed to become a teacher. To go only by her FB performance is hardly representative of the whole picture, and it involves a lot of ASSUMING - speaking of which.

I said it to Melinda, I'll say it to you : if her poor English is affecting the quality of her teaching, then she will be presented with a corrective course of action - even if she can't be fired. This is what periodic reviews are all about.

And frankly, given how bad her skills are supposed to be, I find it hard to believe that EVERYBODY, her superiors, the parents, are not aware of the situation already - and her too, for that matter. She's been dealing with this all of her life, surely by now there will have been several people who pointed it out many times, starting with dear Melinda.

You should read Hedgehog's post #75 very carefully. SHE knolws plenty about how the education system works.

@MikeH
"not being able to spell a concept does not in any way mean that you can't help someone understand that concept."
Right on target.

Voice is one of the most difficult instruments to learn to master, because there aren't two alike and you don't see the instrument you're trying to work with. Also, contrary to a piano in front of you, it is affected by your physical and emotional condition. You can only go by feel, with the teacher guiding you as to what sounds good, as you can't even trust the sound you're producing in your own ears, because it is not the same as the one everybody else hears - as anyone who has heard recordings of their own voice will know.

It is a well-known fact in singers' circles that the worst singers are the best teachers, because they are the ones who had to deal with technical difficulties and vocal flaws, NOT the ones with a huge natural talent.

It may very well be that her best skill is to have first-hand experience of dealing with special needs and demonstrating through example that having them is not a barrier to a successful life. In which cae. more power to her! Before the kids in special ed learn THAT, they can learn little else.

@Beth
Yeah, children soak up all they can, and a love of learning is what they should soak up first, otherwise the sponge will remain forever dry - especially special eds kids. Whatever their special need may be. What Hedgehod said in her response to you.

P.S.: You KNOW the person Melinda is talking about, and were "proof-reading her papers and rewriting them"? How very convenient that you should so timely fly to the rescue. I'm not sure Hariette, Melinda and you are not all the same person.

Re: sharnee

You want to know why I used the "teaching pedophiles to read" line? My point -- my statement aside -- was that she has better things to do with her time than criticizing others, colleagues or not. Lise has it right: This is not her fight, so leave it go.

BTW Lise, talk about politeness with my statement, you did the very same thing when putting Melinda in her place, Ms. Piper.

Re: Bobaloo
I was gently teasing , not remonstrating. Sometimes tone doesn't convey well in print!

Re: nanchan
I think your grandmother must have been a hoot! I would love to use that phrase.

Re: Lise Brouillette

I guess it is indeed true what they say about sending e-mails ... be careful what you say, because you really can't know how someone will take the intended message. That is, the tone can be completely misinterpreted.

I read the comments to the Annies for several years but never posted. I must say I am shocked at the meanness and also the complete inability of people who should know better to see another point of view.
I have read enough previous replies from the frequent posters to know they are capable of deep thinking, but for some reason this teacher issue pushed a deep-seated button for obtuseness.
I hesitate to call it ignorance, because the posters most definitely are not, but the blind spot and the visciousness of attacking anyone who challenges their blind spot is amazing.
I understand perfectly well your points of view, but apparently you all cannot, and are very good at projecting your narrow mindedness onto me.
Spell Check has concerns, though the intervention part is not her/his battle to fight. However, the concerns are valid, and despite people saying they would rather have a sympathetic teacher, sympathy gets you less than zero in the real world unless you're the child of the boss.
I will go back to being a reader and not a commenter, because you can't fix stupid, and it is a waste of time and space trying to communicate with cemented closed minds.