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Single Mom Needs To Cool It with the Slumber Parties
Dear Annie: I have a 35-year-old daughter with two children (ages 13 and 2), and they all are living with us. "Micki" moved in after leaving her common-law husband a few months ago. He was the third man in her life.
Since Micki has been home, she has been going out every weekend. I am "old school" and believe she should come home from work and take care of my grandchildren. But if I open my mouth, my wife will toss me out. It has already happened once before.
This situation is slowly killing me. My wife tells me Micki is still young. I say, so what? That doesn't mean she can go to bed with every Tom, Dick and Harry. I don't know what to do next. Any suggestions? — One Step from Leaving
Dear One Step: Micki is not as young as your wife thinks. At 35, she is closer to middle-aged. Unless your wife wishes to enable her daughter to remain irresponsible, the two of you need to set some ground rules regarding Micki's behavior. A social night out once a week is fine. A weekend sleeping around is not. Encourage your wife to put her grandchildren's welfare first and see if you can come to an agreement regarding Micki's responsibilities at home.
Dear Annie: My family is dealing with a sad and disturbing situation. My mother died a few years ago, and a mentally ill sibling is still living with Dad. "Joyce" is financially and emotionally exploiting him and is isolating Dad from the rest of the family. The house is full of garbage and is overrun with mice and bugs, and yet my father says if it weren't for Joyce, he would be in a nursing home. (She threatens him with this every day.)
I don't understand how he can abandon his children to live in this filth, especially when my mother kept that house spotless. Please tell us what our options are. — Desperate
Dear Desperate: Your father hasn't abandoned you. He is frightened and has become dependent on Joyce. Would you or another sibling be willing to take Dad in, at least temporarily, until you can straighten this out? If you want to wean him away from Joyce's care, you will need to be more directly involved. Call the Eldercare Locator (eldercare.gov) at 1-800-677-1116. Explain the situation and see what services are available in Dad's area.
Dear Annie: I am now a mother-in-law and have a wonderful relationship with my children and their spouses. I am also a daughter-in-law and can tell "Michigan" that the best way NOT to lose her son is to always include the wife as part of the family.
My husband and I have been married for many years, and I have always felt like an outsider in his family. When we married, my mother-in-law tried to undermine our relationship. According to her, everything in our home is "his," nothing is "ours." When she calls our house, she barely speaks to me. She immediately asks to talk to my husband. She makes it clear that he is her priority and the children and I are just baggage.
But the good part is, she has taught me what not to do as a mother-in-law. I never drop in on my children. I always call first. I spend the same amount of money on my kids as I do on their spouses for birthdays, Christmas, etc. I never ask personal questions about their marriages or finances. If they are not able to come for a function, I don't get upset or make them feel guilty. I try to be supportive and loving.
It is the small, everyday gestures that will make your children's spouses feel like part of the family and that will help you maintain a great relationship not only with your own child, but with all the new children that come along through marriage. — Loving All My Children in Virginia
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2011 CREATORS.COM
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35 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1: At 35, Micki should be on her own, single mother or not.
But the real issue here isn't the daughter, it's the wife. She throws you out because you tell her some base truths? That's not a marriage, in my opinion. She's enabling your daughter, setting a bad example for your grandchildren, and mistreating you.
I don't normally go for ultimatums, but in this case I would. I would give Micki three months to find a place to live, and then help her with the seurity deposit (if you can). If she's not out of the house, then you are. You may be anyway, because your wife doesn't seem to want to listen to you. Not a marriage, in my opinion.
BTW: Plenty of single mothers live apart from their parents and do just find. I did. And in my observations, the ones that live with their parents are the ones who have the hardest time becoming independant. And their children suffer.....so unfair to all concerned. Give that ultimatum: she goes in three months or you do. and then stick with it. Life is too short to live the way you are.
LW2: Are the Annies back on the crack pipe? This is a situation for SOCIAL SERVICES! This is outright Elder abuse. If this was a child, we wouldn't allow this, why is it ok for an older person? No pussyfooting around here, people. Have the father taken out of the home.
On a related note: I have been advising a close friend of mine for the last two years to find an alternative living situation for her mentally ill brother. He's in his 50s, never had a job, has abused drugs most of his adult life, now lives with the father, is draining the whole family with his demands (2am calls because he forgot to buy his meds etc), money issues like you would not believe. The big issue for my friend is that once her parents are gone, I think this dirtbag is going to leach off HER. This is a cautionary tale to those of us who have siblings that are not capable of taking care of themselves: when estate planning is happening, make sure you make some kind of provision for them. In the case of the LW, they need to take care of the father first, and then try to figure out some kind of help for the sister. She's not capable of taking care of herself, much less the father. Frankly, the family should never have left the father in the care of this sibling anyways. They are both infirm.
Comment: #1
Posted by: nanchan
Fri Dec 2, 2011 9:36 PM
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LW1: Something seems lacking in this first letter. Micki is going out on the weekends (he does not state if she's gone the whole time or even both days) and her father assumes she's hopping in bed with any random man (what a delightful thing to think of your own daughter - I'm glad my own father thinks better of me). Yes, she's a single mother. Yes, she left her common-law husband but he doesn't say why. Was he abusive? We don't know. He's the third man in her life? I hate to say it but these days that's actually not horrible (not thrilling but not as bad as it could be). All we know is that Micki's father wants her to be with her children every waking hour that she isn't working.
Let's take what we do know then. Micki is a single mother who left her common-law husband for publicly unstated reasons and took her two children with her. She did so a few months ago (three? four?). She is working but we don't know if it is full or part time. Micki goes out on the weekends. What do I see? A thirty-five year old single mom who may well be trying to get back on her own feet in, what is to just about everyone, an uncertain economy. Whatever happened between her and her former common-law husband may have been sudden enough to take from her any savings she may have had. She takes personal time during the weekends and with a father like that I can see why she may well need a breath of fresh air every few days. Unless the writer includes more details none of us, including the Annies,can really say much about it.
Oh and maybe his wife sees him as a judgmental shmuck and is simply tired of it.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Hierophantria
Fri Dec 2, 2011 10:08 PM
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LW1 - good or bad, a father can't tell his 35 adult daughter who to sleep with. That is up to her, w//o regard to numbers or how often. She is an adult, and you don't get to control her relationships or tell her how to live her life. You can set limits on what you will do, e.g. how many hours per week you will be responsible for the kids or whether you will be responsible for the whole night, and on what happens in your house, e.g. no overnight guests, what chores or rent your daughter is responsible for. It sounds like you & your wife are arguing about your daughter's morality, and it's going nowhere. I think counseling & a 3d party might help you & your wife agree on rules of the household - limited amt of childcare by you & your wife, rent from your daughter, chores done by your daughter. You need to agree, write down the rules, everyone sign, and then you & your wife enforce them. I wouldn't be quick to make her leave. a;though it's certainly an option if she can't do her share. Her moving into her own place might be best for the adults, but it may be awful for the kids.
LW2 - call social services. this is elder abuse. agree w/ poster who said that if this were a child, no one would think twice about calling social services. consider calling your lawyer, too.
Comment: #3
Posted by: kai archie
Fri Dec 2, 2011 10:25 PM
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LW1-
Oh boy, the usual mamby-pamby answer from the Annies...
"the two of you need to set some ground rules", "Encourage your wife", "see if you can come to an agreement"...
Annies, where di you miss the part where the LW says, "if I open my mouth, my wife will toss me out. It has already happened once before"? This is obviously not a one-to-one partnership.
One Step From Leaving, I'm afraid you have a choice between putting up with this yurunda or taking that step. Do have a talk with the enabling wife and present her with an ultimatum. Then start packing, because I think your wife has alrteady chosen the daughter and her kids over you. Sorry.
P.S.: There is a lot missing and a lot of apparent assuming on your part here, to the point where it is not certain you have a valid complaint or not...
LW2-
Has Joyce changed the phone number or does she prevent dad from answering the door? Don't let her isolate him, keep calling and showing up. Clean the house and take him in for a few days or weeks - "vacation time", holidays, any excuse is good. And call the resource the Annies gave. And a lawyer - this is elder abuse. Perhaps he need legal guardianship.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Dec 2, 2011 10:30 PM
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Au contraire, my fellow posters! It is ABCSOLUTELY the father's right to tell Micki what she can and cannot do when she is living under his roof.
Who do you think is taking care of the 2 year old while Micki's out hunting for her next man? The 13 year old? Probably not. Who is buying the food for these kids? Who is taking the 13 year old to school? Who is reading night night stories? Who is, in short, parenting while Mom is out doing whatever she is doing?
This is not about Micki going out a night a week "to get some air" (I'm sorry, but that's a pretty lame statement given what we know. she's going out at least 3 nights a week). This is not about who she is sleeping with, IMO. It seems more about his daughter's lack of any type of responsibility. This can be seen in her bad previous choices in living situations (common law husband is just another way of saying long term shack up for many people). And now she's living under his roof, dumping her kids on him and his own wife wants to throw him out every time he complains. Nice.
I also think Micki has a total lack of respect for her parents, which is why I think she needs to leave. Yes, I know the economy is bad. But when someone gives you a roof over your head, you make changes in your life out of gratitude! For example, my mother doesn't like people to stay up past 11. When I stay at her house, I'm home and in bed by 11. Because I respect my mom. Another example: I'm at my friend's house. She's a recovering alcoholic. I want a beer, but I drink a coke. Why? Respect. I'm in her home. Another example. My daughter is staying at my brother's house, he has horses and she gets up 3 hours before her normal time to help him feed the horses. Respect.
I feel for this poor guy... and it's sad his wife is not supporting him.
Comment: #5
Posted by: nanchan
Fri Dec 2, 2011 11:08 PM
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Lw1-You and your wife need counseling, fast. If she won't go with you, go without her. She feels bad for your daughter, and she is encouraging her recklessness. A mother of two school-age children should coem home EVERY NIGHT and TAKE CARE of her children.
If you can have your way, and/or if your wife comes to your senses, kick your daughter out and let the kids stay with you.
Your daughter may be stealing from you. Keep an eye on the money.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Roger
Fri Dec 2, 2011 11:35 PM
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LW1: "Since Micki has been home, she has been going out every weekend. I am "old school" and believe she should come home from work and take care of my grandchildren."
This doesn't make any sense - he only mentions her going out on "the weekend", but then says she should come home from work and take care of her children. Does she go out every day after work or not?? MY guess (and we're all guessing) is that his daughter gets the kids off to school, goes to work a 9-6 job, and gets home at 7 or so. By then the LW is fuming that he had to take care of the kids from 3:30PM to 7. His wife doesn't seem to mind being daycare provider, so why not let her do it? It seems to me that if he kicks the daugher out, the only thing that would change in her life would be that she'd have to hire someone to look after the kids after school, and to babysit on Saturdays if she wants to go out. So she "goes out" on weekends - this could mean anything from an hour on Saturday to 48 hours of drunken debauchery. The LW also doesn't mention space - does he have a 5 bedroom 3 bath house with plenty of room for everybody? Or is it a 2 bedroom apt? There is no way to know if the daugher is acting like a loose teenager, or if she's doing her best and LW is tightass.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Steve C
Fri Dec 2, 2011 11:54 PM
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(of course, I'm assuming the daughter has a normal Mon-Fri job - if she works weekends, then goes out after work on Saturday night, then clearly she's not spending the entire weekend partying, only a night or 2 after work)
Comment: #8
Posted by: Steve C
Fri Dec 2, 2011 11:57 PM
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LW1: This is not a marriage. It is an arrangement. If you open your mouth and get kicked out, things are one-sided against you. If Micki causes these kinds of problems, imagine what financial issues, religion issues, etc. would cause you. I think you need to be more assertive in your marriage.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Jerry Smith
Sat Dec 3, 2011 2:01 AM
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My hunch is this is more about dad being uncomfortable his daughter has sex outside of marriage than anything else. His letter doesn't say all weekend, and it's perfectly reasonable for an adult woman to have a night out. His letter doesn't even indicate these are overnights, contrary to the headline.
If his wife is tossing him for it, there's likely more to it considering his letter reads like he believes she should not be sexually active at all.
Comment: #10
Posted by: wkh
Sat Dec 3, 2011 3:03 AM
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LW1
It is not antediluvian to expect adults to behave appropriately, especially when role model for a young teen and a toddler. Your daughter needs to stop behaving like a teenager and your wife to stop enabling her. However, your stratagem needs to be carefully thought out, so as not to work the opposite of your intentions. You know them best ~ call a family council and set up a plan for the next few months and years.
```
Comment: #11
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Sat Dec 3, 2011 3:21 AM
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Re: LW1, a 35-year old woman having had 3 relationships is certainly not "out of control". Nor is it ridiculous for a single adult woman in her 30s to go out on the weekends.
By the LW's own admission, his wife has an extreme reaction to his attempts to control his daughter's behavior. Perhaps that's because she doesn't agree that his complaints are valid, that he's exaggerating the situation and is in fact being rather sexist -- one wonders if he would feel completely differently if it were his 35-year-old SON but every other aspect of the situation was the same, hm?
In any event, getting more assertive (again) will likely only result in a repeat of the previous banishment. Perhaps a better idea would be to sit down and talk calmly with his wife and ask her why she supports her daughter in this behavior, and MAYBE he should be open to the possibility that his interpretation of her behavior is the problem.
LW2 seems a clear case of elder abuse. The other children should get dad out of that situation and get the appropriate social services involved.
LW3, it's excellent that you were able to learn this lesson, to turn the negative into a positive, and create such a great situation for your own children and their spouses.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Dec 3, 2011 4:05 AM
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LW1--'Micki' is an enigma. At 35 years OLD, she's experiencing a mid-life crisis but has never grown up. While she drifts from man to man, producing a couple of children along the way, she's been living the "high life" in her mind. A life without borders. That's the ticket. Now she's back at home where her parents are sharply divided in how to deal with her: Copter mom molly coddles and enables her daughter. She's in denial about what a crappy parent she was so she blindly encourages Micki to go out and enjoy herself. Evil dad, who insists on personal accountability and boundaries probably always played the "bad guy" but was overruled at every turn by Copter mom. He is one step away from being kicked out by Copter mom for insisting of all things that Micki face up to her responsibilities. My advice to "Evil" dad is to preempt his wife. Pack your bags and move out. Let's see how much fun it is for Copter mom when she becomes the primary caregiver to her own grandchildren at the hands of her absentee daughter who'll be too busy partying every weekend and screwing every guy who catches her eye as seeks her next meal ticket. To them you should say good luck and good riddance.
LW2--My question is where are the rest of the siblings with regards to Dad's care? If Joyce is the only one who bothers to give Dad the time of day, then he's going to do whatever he can to keep her around. Even if that means living in squalor. My advice to you is to rally your siblings and gee, I don't know, take five minutes from your busy lives to see to it that Dad's house is cleaned up and repaired. If Joyce helps, fine, if not then she's part of the problem. Put her on notice that you and the rest of your siblings are on watch to ensure she doesn't turn Dad's home into a hoarders paradise. While you're at it, you and your siblings need to work out a schedule for Dad to spend quality time with your families. If that's too much to handle, then maybe he does belong in a nursing home. The current situation isn't fair to your Dad or Joyce.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Chris
Sat Dec 3, 2011 4:40 AM
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Joyce sounds like too many relatives of old folks that I have heard of. They either hasten his death or put him in the nursing home. Either way they manage to get power of attorney and suck the elder dry. Joyce will never move out of that house. It will become hers. Get Elder Abuse and a lawyer on this, fast!
Comment: #14
Posted by: sarah stravinska
Sat Dec 3, 2011 5:07 AM
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Lw1: It sounds to me like this man is frustrated and sick of is daughters antics. From what I read in the letter is that this woman is a failure in her father's eyes and is continuing to act in an irresponsible manner. It also sounds to me like his wife is delighted to have the kids away from the "common law husband" and with her, instead. It should have been made clear when she moved in that she was giving shelter and food for her and her children, but not babysitting service. The fact that the daughter moved her and her children in their home, and then going out every weekends indicate that she lacks any sense of embarrassment or shame that she had to move in with her parents, which should be a red flag to her mother. Does she have a job? Planning to move out soon? Doesn't say. She is 35 and should have an established life by now. Sure it's a bad economy, but the father didn't say that she moved in because she lost her job; she left her "common law husband".
LW3: It's been over six months since I wrote that letter to the Annies, and I want to thank everyone who was kind enough to write about my worrying about my kids not having a relationship with me when they are grown and gone. All of your comments were wonderful. It's also been nearly six months to the day that I found out my mother in law was dying. She was the best role model anyone could ever have on being a mother in law, and now that the holidays are here, I miss her TERRIBLY. If anyone out there has a decent relationship with their mother in laws, please, please let her know how much you love and appreciate her. God, I wish I could now.
Comment: #15
Posted by: happymom
Sat Dec 3, 2011 5:07 AM
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Re: Steve C & wkh
You both have a very valid point. I remember how much trouble my father had with me being back on the single scene after I divorced, even though I was in no way an irresponsible mother. It was my stepmother who had to read him the riot act. Fathers sometimes have a lot of difficulty with their daughters being sexual beings.
Yes, the man has a right to set the rules in his own household, but so does his wife (it's her household too) and so the two of them have to be in agreement about the said rules. And, unless this is a "48 hours of drunken debauchery" weekly bender we're talking about here, resulting in neglect to her kids, he has no say on her sex life, and he doesn't have the right to tell her whom to screw, even if she's the whore of Babylon. He may object for moral and health reasons ( would too), but we're not under the Taliban here.
In the final analysis, whatever "right to set the rules" he may have is being nullified by the fact that his wife is not in agreement, whether it be because she's a copter mom or he's being a sexist control freak. Both are possible - like I was questioning myself and many posters specified with precision, there is a lot of essential information missing here.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 3, 2011 5:53 AM
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LW1 - Take the next step. Leave. Seriously. It's apparent that this is the way things are going to be. You are not going to change anything. If you don't ike it take your half of the income you bring in and go.
LW2 -Wow. Your father abandonded you!?!? You abandoned him if you're allowing this to go on. Sad fact of life sweetheart; when our parents get old the roles reverse and we take care of them. Get busy you ungrateful slug and start doing something and start my getting your sister some help or get her out or your dad out. Who cuts your meat for you?
LW3 - You have learned from what life showed you. Excellent. Now talk to those the first two letter writers and see if you can help them. They need it.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Rick
Sat Dec 3, 2011 6:10 AM
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A 13 YO and a 2 YO are not easy for grandparents to live with 24/7. I really bet that "this is killing me" refers day to day living with child-rearing when he thought it was done AND when he has no real parental authority ("But my mother BOUGHT me this outfit, and she says it's fine to wear to school!") AND when he sees no end in sight.
But he needs to be smarter in how he approaches his wife. It sounds to me as if he said "this is killing me -- we are done with this, and I can't stand having no time of our own here. Micki is using us. It can't go on -- we have to get them out of here!" In other words, he tried decreeing it because he didn't like it -- and his wife, seeing her grandkids about to be thrown into the street, said, "no way, buster -- if you don't like it, YOU move out."
So, yeah, he DOES need to talk with his wife, but it has to be an honest conversation.One that says, "you know I love those kids and I'm not sure Micki is parenting them well, and that frightens me, too. But I'm really worried that we've made this safety net comfy enough that Micki isn't getting the full parenting experience. What if, heaven forbid, we were in a car accident tomorrow? How would she cope if we weren't here? What would happen to the kids? I get the sense from Micki that she feels she doesn't need to put her kids first, and feels perfectly fine about leaving them in our care three full weekends in a row so she can party. She's not getting younger and neither are we -- how can we fix this? "
And then be prepared to start making the nest a little less comfy, with some ways in which Micki is expected to contribute to the maintenance of the household and some more time away for the grandparents. I.e. -- it's time for the grandparents to plan some weekends away.Micki needs to be looking for backup childcare as a basic step toward independence.
Comment: #18
Posted by: hedgehog
Sat Dec 3, 2011 6:13 AM
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Re LW#1--------just from what few facts we have, sounds like daughter is a leech who expects her parents to take care of her AND her kids even though she is way past the legal age for being a responsible adult--------Dad is a controller who doesn't like what she does as far as her sex life (plus the fact that she dumps her kids on her parents while she does it)------and Mom is an enabler who makes excuses for daughter's poor behavior.
Maybe Dad IS too controlling, but can beggars be choosers? Seems to me if you are at the point of having to move in with someone else, you do everything you can to bend to their thinking and in the meantime you take steps to be self-sufficient again so you can set your own rules. Makes it difficult when LW and his wife are at odds about what is allowable and what is not, but really-------Does Dad get entirely shut out of the decision-making process? Can't tell if he is unreasonable or not, but I bet he is thinking that at age 35 his daughter should have been able to be out of his hair for several years now, and it appears she may continue to make stupid decisions and keep running home the rest of her life-------or at least HIS life. He perhaps was looking forward to the end of child-raising and now he's stuck with both her and her kids. And it appears his wife has no problem babysitting, while he would prefer DAUGHTER took care of her own kids. No social life for poor daughter? Tough--------she had them, let her raise them.
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Re LW #2----------I would like to know how much effort LW and his other siblings have put into taking care of Dad's needs after Mom died. Granted, Joyce has something to gain from living with Dad, but has anyone else offered to move in and take care of him? Or take him into their home? No, he should not be living in clutter and filth. So step in and do something, for Pete's sake. Get him out of there, OR get Joyce out and get a caregiver in------either hire one or do it yourself. (Just be aware that if you move Dad out and Joyce takes over his house, she will either end up with it somehow when he passes, or it will get trashed till it is worth nothing. Stop griping about how poorly Joyce takes care of him, and take care of him yourself.
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Comment: #19
Posted by: jennylee
Sat Dec 3, 2011 7:32 AM
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As much as Dad is concerned about his 35-year-old daughter and her being a parent to her children, where is the father of these children? Even if Micki never married the father(s) of her children, why are they not mentioned and held accountable for the children's welfare?
Comment: #20
Posted by: Misa
Sat Dec 3, 2011 7:47 AM
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LW3 could have been my letter. My husband was an only child. I had 5 siblings, one special needs. She never had to share, we shared and gave till it hurt. The undermining, etc was all there. Not till the day my m-i-l died did she realize how much I loved her 'anyway'. I was the only one she wanted to feed her--Hospice (entered it the day before) said the proper response of 'am I dying or please let me die' were to be met with it is o.k.
Anyway, she looked at me and said I'm going to die. I said yes, and that it was ok. She said DON'T YOU CARE? I crawed up into her hospital bed with her, held her like a baby, told her we loved her but GOD was waiting, along with Grandpa and all her friends who had already died. Soon she asked for her son, my husband. He was coming from his workplace. She said he had to hurry or she would be left. She told him the same thing she told me, and hubby looked at her and said yes, God was waiting and so was dad. She took 1 breath, laid back on the reclining bed and was gone.
Fast forward--during this time my eldest married an only child. I told her I would never treat her as my own m-i-l did and have proven it many times since they were married. Mis-understandings on her part due to being an only child would be talked through, etc and she knows she can call me for anything. Her own mother, 2 grandmothers live in the same town as she is (40 min away) and yet, will call me as she knows she won't be disappointed with the response.
I believe this on my part came because of always having many around me, giving me and getting back. You do what you are shown. Without question. M-I-Ls don't have to be witches. Just ride the occasional broom.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Sat Dec 3, 2011 8:53 AM
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Joyce/MN: that story brought tears to my eyes. So often we don't realize the impact we have on other people's lives, usually they don't tell us, but by being there for your MIL, and learning from her lessons, you managed to make it a win for all concerned. no wonder your husband is still married to you and so happy!
Thanks for sharing.... a powerful story. Have a fantastic saturday!
Comment: #22
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 3, 2011 9:41 AM
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LW2: Please understand how very frightened your dad is. He has no idea that there are other options besides the hellhole nursing homes he probably remembers and living in filth, and he believe he has the better option now.
I think the Annies gave good advice here, because if the sibs start out by getting Joyce prosecuted for elder abuse, Dad WILL turn his back on them. Eldercare will ask them the questions they need to determine how to proceed -- is Dad ambulatory? Is he bedridden? Is he able to live independently in a apartment or condo (no outside maintenance, no lawn care, no snow shoveling) with universal accessibility, or does he need more assistance? Could that assistance be provided by a senior helper, or does he need more than a couple hours a day and some housekeeping help?
Eldercare will also be able to advise you how to help show Dad that alternatives to what he fears are possible, and to get him on board with a plan to move that respects his dignity. if he's aware that Joyce is unable to maintain the house in a way that protects his investment in it, he may recognize that it's better to move, get the house fixed up cosmetically and sell before there's structural damage, black mold or other problems that make it unsellable.
Comment: #23
Posted by: hedgehog
Sat Dec 3, 2011 9:42 AM
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Nanchan - Three nights a week? Where did you read that? Most people are lucky to have a two day weekend, let alone three. The letter doesn't even say she goes out twice but only that she goes out on the weekends. If I say I'm going out on the weekend what does that mean? It means I may go out one day, both days, I may stay out all weekend, I may just go out one night. Its vague as vague can get. For most of the working public with classic nine to five jobs this means Friday nights (assuming you're not dead on your feet) and Saturday nights and maybe a little bit of Sunday.
Roger - Stealing from him? What in his letter gives you that idea? I'm truly curious. Oh, and kick the mother out so you can separate the children completely from their parents? Yeah, that'll be a wonderful experience for two young children. Good idea.
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Folks, we just don't know enough here. The letter is too vague on details for any of these horribly harsh judgements. There are plenty of folks who believe that women should stay with a partner even if said partner is abusive. Maybe her father is one of those people for all we know. I've known a couple women who have found themselves in situations identical to this. Why judge the daughter harshly when we really don't know the root of the current setup to begin with? (I know a good number of you would call yourselves good Christians and I /know/ there are some rather firm statements about making judgements within your own spiritual texts so it does seems somewhat antithetical.)
Comment: #24
Posted by: Hierophantria
Sat Dec 3, 2011 10:02 AM
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LW1- There is a bit missing from the letter, so I have to make assumptions as well. LIke others, I think the real issue here is the wife, not the daughter. In a marriage, you are suppose to become a united front, meaning you come to a decision together and then act upon it as one. The wife is indeed letting Micki come between her husband and her. I have to assume this is a cyclical thing since the lw says he was thrown out over Micki once before. This is no good. As another poster said, this is not a marriage. The lw can either as the wife to come with him for counseling, whether it be pastoral counseling or whatever, or he can divorce her, or simply leave things as they are. If the wife refuses counseling, then he really has only the latter two options. You cannot force others to change. Perhaps the threat of a real divorce will wake the wife up and she will start to realize he is not the door mat she takes him for.
As for the daughter, my assumptions come from what I've seen others do in the past. There are some jobs where working weekends are practically mandatory. Jobs in retail and restaurant are among them since the weekends are their peak business. It is possible she works every weekend in a retail job. In the retail jobs I've work in, the women with children typically work early morning shifts and get off early in the afternoon, though not always. At one retail job, a lot of the women would go out once a week every friday night for a "girls' night out" and a lot of them had children, but this was only once a week. The rest of the time, they were with their families and children. The women without children would get together on other nights during the weekend as well. A couple of them ended up divorced cause their husbands got sick of it, but in their words, "No man will tell me what to do." But whatever.
There was one single mom who is memorable in my mind. She would go out with them on the friday night, but then she would do her own thing on the Saturday and Sunday night with her own friends as well. She was a party girl. I often wondered who exactly cared for her little girl when she was out into the wee hours of the morning.
For Micki, I am assuming she works day shift all weekend, then goes out after work for a "girls' night out" and perhaps some of those nights are spent on dates with guys as well. If she spends every weekend night out partying and going on dates, then I can see how the father would be upset. After all, he is stuck by default caring for the grandchildren on the weekends with his wife, and I am sure he would like to spend a nice weekend out with the misses as well. But again, the real issue here is the wife, because unless she is willing the actually listen to the husband, then nothing will change... unless he walks out, that is.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Maria
Sat Dec 3, 2011 10:39 AM
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LW1: I agree that this guy's real problem is his relationship with his wife rather than with his daughter. I think he has a problem with women in general. He characterizes his 35-y-o daughter in the least generous possible way, and tells us that his wife threatens to kick him out if he so much as disagrees. If she's threatening to kick him out, and has in the past, he's obnoxious and difficult. Calling himself "old school" tells the real story. It means he's a sexist idiot who doesn't treat either his wife or his daughter with any respect. On the surface, the daughter's behavior sounds bad, but the wife's response and his own words convince me that he is wrong on many, many levels and is the number one source of conflict in the home.
Comment: #26
Posted by: LouisaFinnell
Sat Dec 3, 2011 10:42 AM
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To amend my previous post for clarification, I am assuming Micki works all weekend on the day shift, then goes out on all three nights: Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. This is the only way I can imagine her father could give a valid complaint. I am assuming this is what he means when he says she "has been going out every weekend" because if someone would say this to me, I would assume the speaker means the whole weekend.
If Micki is only doing a "girls' night out" with her co-workers on Friday nights, like my co-workers did after work every week, then the lw really has no valid complaint and needs to get over it.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Maria
Sat Dec 3, 2011 10:47 AM
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I am totallly onside with the Dad in LW1. Is anyone besides him thinking of the kids? No, three relationships are not too many--unless you keep popping out kids and then moving on. I assume the daughter got together with one man and had the 13-year-old, then left him and got together with another man and had the 2-year-old, then left him and got together with the live-in, and then left him and is now living with her parents, and within only a few months is already spending much of her time back on the dating scene, perhaps looking for father-figure #4. Exactly how much stability is this giving the 13-year-old? That mom's first priortiy is to her two children, not her desperate need to be sleeping around with men. She needs to grow up and create a stable home environment. Also, if she doesn't have enough money to live on her own, where is she getting the money to go out so much?
And Steve, 2-year-olds do not attend school. Those gradparents are looking after a toddler all day as well as a teenager. You don't think they deserve a break at the end of the day and expect the childrens' mother to actually look after HER kids?
Comment: #28
Posted by: Jane
Sat Dec 3, 2011 10:55 AM
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taking a step back from the "is she sleeping around" debate for a moment (which I agree is none of the LW' business), let's look at practicalities.
A 35 year old woman moves home with two children. Parents allow this to happen because they want stability for the family. Mom goes out at least two nights a week (happy now, H?) to do whatever she wants, and is working a full time job in the bargain. Day care? We don't see it, so the Gps are llikely left taking care of a 2 year old (have any of you recently BEEN around a 2 year old? They are a LOT of work!) and 13 year old, who is just beginning to get to the teen stage and all the drama that goes with that.
Under the best of circumstances, even if Micki's actions weren't, shall we say, questionable, I would suggest a time limit for how long she stays in that house. It's the best for ALL concerned. When people start to live together because of circumstances that are not expected, people have to have an EXIT plan.
My advice, in my original post still stands. I don't care if Micki is going out 7 days a week or 1. She is obviously overstaying her welcome with her father, and causing a rift (I think we can all agree it was there anyway) between her parents. The LW needs to give her adequate time to move out, help financially if he can, and then try to work to figure out his issues with his wife. Going to a counselor is a good step.
Comment: #29
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 3, 2011 11:26 AM
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Re: LouisaFinnell
You know, come to think of it, I think you have it in nutshell. I'm changing my mind about this guy. But not about my advice. Let him take that "next" step, and good riddance.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 3, 2011 3:48 PM
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So LW1's daughter has had 3 boyfriends in 15 years, is working, takes care of her children while she's home during the week, and actually has the audacity to go out one or two nights on the weekend, and this has LW1 incensed? I'd say the issue is dad's relationship with his daughter. Yes, LW1 and his wife can set the ground rules, but it sounds like LW1's idea of ground rules is that his daughter is either at work, or at home watching the kids, which seems a little excessive.
Comment: #31
Posted by: dave
Sat Dec 3, 2011 4:13 PM
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I think the term "old school" says it all; I would bet the daughter works hard, does take care of her kids, goes out one night a week, but old dad is just irritated that she's there at all. No wiggle room in his mind.
It's entirely possible that the daughter left a bad situation, but "back in my day, we would have lived in a shack and eaten twigs and bark before we would move in with the parents, blah blah blah blah blah."
And where did those of you get the idea she's sleeping around all over the place? I think the dad is exaggerating; my mom does that so I know whereof I speak. So, consider the source.
Comment: #32
Posted by: jar8818
Sat Dec 3, 2011 6:38 PM
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Re: jar8818
I guess from the moment she's not sitting in a chair knitting and dressed in a widow's garb, "some" people take for granted that she boinking every Tom, Dick and Harry, AND that she doesn't have a right to it.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 3, 2011 8:02 PM
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Jar, I think you totally miss the point.
It's not about her sleeping around. It's about her responsibility to her children and the fact that she can't do so on her own. She has to live with her parents, and sorry, it does mean she has to live by their rules or MOVE OUT.
Comment: #34
Posted by: nanchan
Wed Dec 7, 2011 8:37 AM
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The Annie's answer is somewhat general and vague because there are so many details that could paint the situation one way or another that have been left out.
Most of the posters BTL assumed the worst in Micki's behavior though the LW did not say that Micki was out every weekend night instead of with her children as she ought to be.
Salient points to me are:
First, 3 relationships in 14 or more years does not constitute "man hopping" to me. In order for Micki's ex to truly qualify as a common law spouse they would have had to live together at least 7 years in most states. Perhaps LW finds it unsavory that the two children (they are pretty far apart in age) have different fathers and that creates a negative judgement on his part.
Second, when Micki's mother says, "she is still young," my first thought was, "No, 35 is not so very young." Then I realize that perhaps what the mother means is, she is not 55 or 60...she still wants to go out dancing or drinking or whatever it is she does and that there is still a possibility that she might meet a life partner.
Third, I agree with everyone who feels that Micki needs to do what she can to become more independent and living with her parents should not be a long term arrangement. As was noted, a few months is not very long to re-orient your life. Micki works, but it is hard to say how much income she nets. She may still be in negotiations with the ex over financial arrangements or maybe he tapped HER out. If she had a partner and has a 2 year old (which, for those who haven't been there recently can cost hundreds per week for full time care in my moderately priced midwestern town) she may have worked less to care for the toddler or she may be underemployed. Incidentally, I would not leave a 13 year old on their own all day while I worked 8 or more hours per shift over summer vacations either, so there goes more child care/ day camp expenses/ etc.
Maybe LW1 is unreasonable and intolerant or maybe Micki is irresponsible and immature. I just don't see enough information to judge her as harshly as so many BTL have done.
Comment: #35
Posted by: scrappy
Wed Dec 7, 2011 1:42 PM
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