Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

'Scuse me Annies?! What are you thinking with LW2?!

Lady the time to get serious about marriage was before you got financially and parentally entangled. I think it's BS of the highest order that you want to throw your children's father out NOW because he won't put a ring on it. The time to get all upset about that was before you had those babies. He provides and you guys have a marriage, there's just no paper about it. Sit and think about why it is so terribly important to you to have this now, when clearly it wasn't before. And think about if you really want to destroy a family over this.

LW1 - for once I agree with Annie. the LW should stay away from her s-i-l until she can control her reactions to this woman and react to her in a calm adult way. As far as I can tell, LW has 2 modes: doormat & screaming harpy. The time to react to abuse is the first time it happens, not 3 days later when you're so upset you have a breakdown. I have no idea why a pizza would make the LW go ballistic. A calm firm reaction is better than going ballistic. If I were your s-i-l, my version of the pizza incident would be, "I brought my brother his favorite food to cheer him up & his wife screamed bloody murder at me. I have no idea why she was so upset." As for s-i-l's health , if I were the s-i-l, my version of the meeting at the physical therapist would be, "I told her I nearly died, and she yelled at me and made it about her need to know, not about what happened to me." So I think these women are better off apart until they can both act like adults and speak civilly to each other. Annabel might be mean but the LW is just making things worse.

LW2: no idea why you want to get married (I bet your boyfriend feels the same way) and no idea why he doesn't. Suggest you see a lawyer & start nailing down the legal issues that bother you - write wills. Make each other your health care power of attorney. Make sure the kids are protected legally. Make sure the ownership of your joint assets protects you both. If you want to give him an ultimatum, don't bluff & don't back down. If you really want to be married, you may have to leave this guy and find someone who wants to be married, too.

If the world was perfect, we would get along greatly with our families. As it is, we can't choose our families, but we can choose our friends.
That is why our family is so HUGE. Those we choose as friends automatically become our family as well, helps with the balance of those we had no choice about!
You can limit your time around family that drive you bonkers. We all have family which do that. And then again, those friends which became LIKE family will do it to you too.

GEE--and the world still goes around and around.

LW1 - If your husband won't cut off the gangrenous limb that is your SIL, you have to put on a fresh coat of turtle wax and let her insults and snide comments roll right off you. If you stop being so offended and stop going ballistic over pizza, you'll all be happier, and SIL will have less fuel.

LW2 - Well, it's a good thing you had multiple children with this guy before figuring out what you both want out of the relationship. Too bad you jointly own cars, though, that might make things complicated when you issue your next "ultimatum".

Okay, the one thing you didn't mention was: why doesn't your baby daddy want to get married. Is he just against the institution of marriage, or is he afraid of the cost of a wedding or possible divorce? Has he been married/divorced before? In other words, is this more about him than it is about you? If so, maybe you need to accept the status quo. I would hope that, because you have kids with this guy, you're not going to kick him out just because he won't sign of a piece of paper. If he just doesn't want to be tied down to a wife then maybe you need to think hard about issuing a REAL ultimatum. And why the heck you had kids in this relationship.

LW3 - Congratulations, you've gotten a grudging thank you e-mail because your adult grandchild wants more birthday money. Oh well, I guess it worked.

Re: wkh It's important because of the approximately 1,100 legal rights and privileges of marriage, and technically she could be barred from his hospital room or from making life-or-death decisions if he has a health crisis. This is what the gay community is marching in the streets for. Yes, she should have thought about this before having kids with him, but maybe with time and age it's become more important to her. If she stays they can draw up legal papers covering power of attorney and every other scenario, but it's a lot easier to go the courthouse and just get 'er done. And if he doesn't care about making sure she's legally protected, it is OK to leave.

Message for Zoe:

Before I catch up on today's comments, I just want to clear up some slight confusion from Friday. I absolutely loved the way you expressed yourself on Friday (and every day, come to think of it). I DO have children, I just don't mention them every post. I fully respect anyone's right to have children or refrain from doing so.

Best wishes,

LW1: The old saying "There are three sides to any story, your side, my side and the truth" comes to mind here. I would LOVE to hear what Anabel has to say about you.

That being said, with your current attitude, it's best you stay away from Anabel as much as you can (as kai and the Annies said). First of all, how beneficial do you think all this chick fighting is for your husband? The man just had a stroke! Having two women who he cares about fighting and complaining all the time is not good for his recovery and may even push him to have another stroke.

Secondly, you really need to learn to control your reactions to this woman. If she's as evil as you say, she gets off on your shocked reactions and anger. So stop it. NOW. When you have to have nurses acting as bouncers, it's inappropriate. The nurses aren't there to take care of YOU, they are there to take care of your husband. The next time Anabel comes in with her attitude, just say "Anabel, I know you want to spend some time with Husband, so why don't I come back in 10 minutes and leave you here with him" and then walk out of the room. When you come back, say thanks for coming over and tell her your husband is getting tired and walk her out the door. No more confrontation. If she says anything negative to you, ignore her and change the subject and escort her out the door.

Your primary focus right now should be on helping your husband recover from his stroke, your second priority should be to getting your lives together in your new hometown. I suspect another reason you are so obsessed with Anabel is that you don't have much of a support group in your new town. Start to build some new relationships with people who share your interests: if you are religious, a church is an excellent place to meet people. Other ideas, ask the nurses if there are volunteer groups of women in your age group, go to a local (small) bookstore and inquire about book clubs, or you can go to meetup and check out other groups according to your interests.

LW2: I don't understand why people are confused about why the boyfriend won't marry the LW. It's pretty simple. It's because he doesn't HAVE to! He has all the benefits of marriage already, including children, without having the downsides. If he meets someone else, he can (honestly) say he's single. It's a lot easier to get out of this situation than a marriage, and he knows it. He's keeping his options open while all the while enjoying all the benefits.

At this point, the Annies are right. You either have to accept the situation as it is, or decide to leave. Many many people have children without being married, but it sounds like you have a bit of property involved and a business, so yes a lawyer needs to be contacted. Personally, I'd have a hard time accepting a marriage proposal from a man who did so only because he knew he'd lose his shirt unless he married me. But if that's what you want, then ok.

LW3: No! Not another thank you note letter. Well, we should probably be grateful it's been at least a week since the Annies have mentioned menopause. Small blessings.....

LW1: In the examples you provide about how evil your sister-in-law is, it's only in reaction to *you*. Is she this toxic to anyone else, or is it only you that she has this bad relationship with?

Because if she's evil to *everyone*, then the next time a family member says "oh, Anabel said you threw her out of your husband's hospital room and wouldn't let her visit", you should just simply say "she said what? oh, dear, there she goes again -- you know how she can get," and then just drop the matter.

Because if she IS evil to *everyone*, then *everyone* knows how she is.

But is it just you? If it is, then maybe you should step back and ask yourself what part YOU had in creating the toxic relationship with your sister-in-law, because it does take two to tango -- and if she is ONLY evil to you, then it's not "her nature", it is something about the dynamic between the two of you. The good news is, that dynamic can be changed.

She's been ill, your husband's recovering, it seems to me now is the perfect time to put old grudges on hold, to let bygones be bygones, and let things cool down for a bit. Learn to let her comments wash over you when next you do see her, and see about having an honest conversation about forging a better relationship if you can; otherwise, just negotiate a truce for those times the two of you have to be together, for the sake of the rest of the family.

LW2, you don't mention why your boyfriend doesn't want to get married; and there actually could be several different reasons.

For example, when you talk about getting married, do you get stars in your eyes and speak in hushed tones about the huge number of guests, the expensive dress, sumptuous reception feast -- in other words, do you make it seem like marrying you will inevitably put you both in serious debt? Maybe he's very practically-minded and has his eyes firmly on your bank accounts, wondering why now all of a sudden you want to get married and add crushing debt to your family's financial portfolio?

Have you offered to have a simple and very inexpensive civil ceremony at town hall? Then you'd cover the legal concerns and not have to spent lots of money that perhaps the two of you don't have.

The fact is that he's stayed with you and the children, and continues to stay with you and the children -- and has done so for longer than many marriages have lasted! (Average length of marriages in the US is about 10-11 years, it seems). This really should give you pause before throwing it all away if you don't understand why he objects to marriage, when you have a de facto marriage already; when he loves you, when you love him, and you share children, home, and business life together.

About the business -- could that be part of the concern? That whatever legal arrangement the two of you have regarding the business would be complicated by a marriage license in a way he has concerns about? Talking with a lawyer and adjusting some legal documents before and during the marriage could help allay that concern as well, if that's his issue.

Here's another thing about your letter -- you say you've been PUSHING the issue of marriage for three years. Not that you've been asking about it, or discussing it, but PUSHING it. Have you even ASKED him to explain why he is resisting, or does that not even matter? Again, your letter gives us *zero* information about *why* he doesn't want to get married. So part of me wonders if YOU even know why he doesn't want to -- have you had a calm, NON-pushing conversation with him about this?

If not, perhaps its long past time that you SHOULD. There are plenty of reasonably, logical, legal reasons that the two of you might want to get a simple civil wedding ceremony, to protect each other and your children. And to do so out of love and caring for each other and your future; not for having a lavish party or to compete with a sister who's also planning a wedding, or for any of the other petty reasons that people sometimes have for getting married.

(Actually, come to think of it, you don't say anything in your letter at all about why you've been pushing the issue only in the last three years... what changed for YOU? And have you discussed THAT with your boyfriend as well?)

Like many issues, this seems to me about communication... engage your boyfriend on this issue and understand his objections, and stop PUSHING him for now. But do consider all the issues as well, and ask yourself this -- if all the legals protections can be handled in a lawyer's office instead of getting married, and despite discussing this with him he still doesn't want to get married -- is what you have NOW (as in, a loving partner that you love, that you are raising a family with, sharing a home and business with, who is still right there with you after ten years) worth giving up over this issue?

LW3: I kind of hope this was done as a result of a prior conversation you had with your grandson, in which you told him simply, "Fred, it really does hurt my feelings a bit when I don't get a thank you after I give you a gift. You could write a note, or give me a call, or visit me in person, but some kind of acknowledgement is important, and it's the polite thing to do when you receive any gift, not just from me."

*IF* you had that conversation first and THEN your grandson still failed to acknowledge your gifts, then you made your point to him (although I might have simply not sent any gift at all to prove the point).

It does seem a little mercenary, but let's also hope that part of this equation is teaching a young adult good manners.

LW1--"Other than ignoring her and the rest of this miserable breed, can you think of any other way to deal with the situation?" I find it amusing when people write for advice on how to change people. You can't change her. 'Anabel' is in your own terms bitter, nasty, venal, snide and vicious. Frankly, what more do you need to know? The power she has over you is the power you hand her each and every time you hold your tongue out of politeness or good manners. Just because you're married to her brother, doesn't mean you have to be her bosom buddy or even tolerate her presence. She walks in, you walk out. You don't even have to make an excuse; she knows you can't stand her and the feeling is apparently mutual. If she makes a snide remark, turn right around, stick your finger in her face and return fire in kind. My guess is she'll shrink away in utter shock. A bully can't handle a victim who fights back. While making it clear to your husband that he's free to associate with whomever he pleases, give yourself permission to completely cut off his toxic nightmare of a sister from your life.

LW2--Personally I don't understand men who refuse to walk down the aisle after sharing a life, children, property and financial success with a woman for over a decade. There's commitmentphobia and then there's just stupidity. You and your boyfriend ARE married for all intents and purposes. Your lives are so intertwined at this point that it's absolutely vital that he marry you for administrative purposes if for no other. Go talk to a lawyer and show your husband all the ways you and your children will be harmed if something happens to either of you and you're not legally married. Then, suggest that the two of you forego a big white wedding in favor of an afternoon appointment at the courthouse. Once you're married, keep in mind that all those benefits and legal protections aren't available to same-sex couples and vote accordingly when you have the chance.

''Finally, I decided if I didn't hear from him, I'd give him less money. On his last birthday, I sent only $10. Believe it or not, he immediately got with the program and sent a thank-you email. You really have to love grandchildren. — Grandma''

I tried this, too--------------did not work. It was my step grandchildren. It has been a hard thing to do, as I feel I am playing favorites with my biological grandchildren. I did not want to do this. At Xmas, they may or may not be with us (they are at their mother's home). I send their gifts home (usually money). And ,it galls me that they would not aknowledge my gifts. Yet, if they show up, I hate to have them nothing-or next to nothing-when I give my grandchildren all that I can afford. This past Xmas, I had gift cards for them. I decided that if they came, I would give them. If not, I would use the gift cards myself. They were there-long enough to say ''Hello''''Goodby'' and I am using the gift cards myself.

Just got back in town last night and noticed that I had posted on Friday. Not me. Never-the less, I read through the post for Friday, yesterday and today. I found a reoccuring theme that had been apparent for quite some time now. Easier to see if the comments are read as a whole. The vitrolic arguments made by some have become much too common, even to the point that some readers have stated that they do not post because of it. Some posters have even left because of it. Several of my favorites who 'always' tend to be the voice of reason have eventually been pulled into it. Although Mike H stands firm, "Bless your little heart."
I know this has been mentioned many times in the past. It would be nice if the debates could be kept to following a bit more decorum. I will certainly now reread my post to see if it is insulting or hurtful to others. If I have in the past been hurtful please forgive (or ingore).

I don't know if Anabel has always been like this, sounds like it when it's stated, and the rest of this miserable breed, but she almost died a year ago. Could that be one factor in this?

It doesn't excuse her behavior, but she also didn't tell anyone. Interesting. I wonder what a psychologist would make of this. Sometimes I wish I had gone into that field, it's rather interesting to me.

And the marriage thing in L2; I just don't know why people do things in that order. Sometimes, at least, it ends up just like this.

LW1 - Nice one Annies. Had the LW only taken the chance to express sympathy over Anabel's condition eveything would be all better now. Please. I hope the LW takes the rest of the advice though and just stays away.


LW2 - Common law marriage is not recognized in NC. You need to get your stuff in order, explain what you're doing and why. Don't get all threatening and ultimatumy on him...just do it. Stay calm and let him know that in your state without a marriage license you need to do this to ensure that you, his children, common property and the business are protected should anything happen to either of you. It's really no big deal.....gay couples have been doing this for years and years :-)


LW3 - What a lesson learned, huh? All these years you've spending $50-100 just to get a freakin' thank you card and all it would have cost you was $10. I guess your grandson taught you a lesson. (By the way, when I'm in charge anyone wrting to any advice columnist about thank you cards will be thrown in jail.)

LW 2: There's no sense in chastising LW 2; the horse is out of the barn. She all ready has kids, cars and a business with this person. While the business and the cars can be sorted out with the help of a lawyer, she can't exactly have a post birth abortion.

If there was ever a letter that cried out for a marriage/ relationship counselor, it's this one. You need to figure out what you want out of marriage, why you think marriage will change your life and you need to be able to listen to your boyfriends perspective. If your boyfriend won't go to marriage counseling, go yourself.

LW1: A few people are suggesting that the LW herself has the problem, as she's over-reacting to what SIL says and does. That may be true, but I don't wish to let SIL off the hook entirely. If she was actually making comments like "don't rest because I can't get your big butt out of a chair" she's WAY out of line. Within days of LW's husband having a stroke, yet. Whatever the LW has contributed to this situation, that was absolutely inappropriate.

I agree that whether this woman is simply toxic, or if you two simply can't get along, the solution here is not only distance, but boundaries. Your husband does not wish to estrange himself, so you have to deal with her sometimes. Be firm. If she starts making snide comments, say quite simply, "if you continue to speak to me this way, I'm leaving," or if she's in your house, tell her she will have to leave if she continues. Then stick to it. Don't make a scene over it. Just leave the room, house, building, whatever, when she starts. There's an off chance that'll startle her into more appropriate behaviour. If not, at least you'll be sparing your sanity. And as other have suggested, watch your own reactions. Don't flip out just because it's her (the pizza thing is a bit confusing. I'm assuming your husband was on dietary restrictions or something at the time? She could have been up to something, but it's equally possible she was not aware it would be a problem).

LW2: You do not provide a reason for why your man doesn't want to get married. I'm a little confused myself- if he has kids, cars, a home, and a business with you, somehow I don't think it's over issues of commitment or being tied down. I disagree with nanchan, if he wanted an "easy out" he shouldn't have had kids/home/business with LW. A marriage license at this point would merely add a new complication to an already complex situation if he tried to leave. He'd still have to deal with finances, custody, business entanglements, etc.

So to go out on a limb, I'm going to paint a picture here. Three years ago (for whatever reason; maybe you had your youngest child, maybe your business took off and you're more financially stable, maybe someone close to you had a medical crisis, whatever), you decided you wanted marriage. You've brought it up with your partner (he's not a "boyfriend" after 10 years), and he doesn't seem to object (if he did, LW would know why he objected, as it's doubtful he'd just say "No" and shut down the conversation). But nothing happens, he doesn't propose. If you've gotten to the point of ultimatums, that means at some point he's encouraged this idea, said he would do it, etc etc. He hasn't said he'd never do it. He may have even agreed with you a few times that it's a good idea. He just hasn't moved on it.

So given that situation, there are two possibilities. 1: he's content with things the way they are and doesn't see the need to go to the expense and hassle of a wedding at this point. 2. He has some aversion to marriage that has nothing to do with you, and nothing to do with being commitment-phobic or wanting an "easy exit." He's committed too much to you, has entangled himself too much with you for that to be a serious possibility. Many people view the institution of marriage with some skepticism, and even hostility. He may view it as "a piece of paper" and unimportant. He may view it as supporting organized religion (would it be a church wedding?), or as simply giving
more money to the taxman if you do a civil service.
Probe this a little farther with him, to see what's on his mind and why he doesn't want to move forward. Don't go in firing, just go in wanting to know what's up with him. Based on his response, you may be able to address his concerns (you won't have a 500 guest million dollar extravaganza, you don't have to have a church wedding if it makes him uncomfortable, you won't gain 50 pounds and refuse to have sex with him the minute the license is signed, etc). I agree that at the minimum a quick civil thing should be done just to protect you legally. But he might give you a more deeply-rooted or complicated issue with marriage that makes him unable and unwilling to move forward. You can line up the legal protections you need in other ways, so you might have to accept that.

LW3: I always find these letters odd. Maybe I come from a family of freaks, but I have never been expected to send a thank you note to anyone. Sure, maybe a thank you phone call or something as a child, and obviously thank the person if they're with you while you open their gift. But the note thing was just never done on either side of my family. At least this grandma is okay with email. Other letters seem to suggest that anything other than a lengthy, thoughtfully composed thank you letter on monogrammed paper in cursive writing is ill-mannered and beastly to the ppoint that the receiver should never again benefit from Grand Mama's generosity.

I find it interesting that for many people, email is not an acceptable subtitute for these things. A friend of mine living abroad plans to get married this spring, and send invitations by email. I couldn't care less, but some of my co-workers (women in their 20s like myself) viewed it as tacky and poor manners. What's the difference? In my mind, e-mail is the new mail. I don't receive much in the way of snail mail (junk, magazine subsciption, junk, cable bill, junk, bank statement I forgot to set to "online only" and more junk). When the day comes that I start planning my wedding, I know I'm going to have to sleuth around and hunt down a zillion addresses and postal codes to send out my invites, becauase some older relatives might be scandalized if I don't. But with people my age? I'll send out email invitations, as I already have their email addresses, it's quicker, easier, cheaper, and saves trees. If someone boycotts my wedding over it, so be it. If you want something tangible, print it off.

Sorry, rant over.

Jesus Christ did that ever end up long! Sorry everyone.

Boy, did my letter to the Annies (LW1) get ripped to shreds by the editor. An amazing amount of fact was just sliced out.
But to address a piece of info that was left in the letter and commented on: To whomever said the nurses aren't there to
take care of ME as well as the hubs, sorry, but that's not what ALL TEN nurses told me when I went to them, weeping, and terrified and completely unable to handle my emotions any more around this woman. Two of them took me to the ER and demanded that I be given a physical and Xanax. I was.
And the pizza? ONE slice has over 1500 milligrams of salt. My husband (which info, along with all of that other info, was deleted from my original letter) was on a severly reduced salt intake, and she knew it, and brought the pizza HIDDEN (also in the original letter) in her purse, and she gave it to him when I and the RN's were not there.
Also in the OL I did state that I have ignored this bitch's comments for decades, especially the ones directed at my husband (she calls him every nasty name in the book).
I find it amazing that so many of you are so incredibly discompassionate that you couldn't see the paralyzing fear I was in, and have not one comforting thing to say to me. Me. The wife. Her side of the story?? Here's what I did with her side: I sent her many very nice notes thanking her for being there for us, for me, for the one time she did a favor, and being "my rock", when the polar opposite was true.
Also chopped out of the OL was the fact that when we saw her at the physical therapy place, I stayed in the lobby with her, talking to her for at least 20 minutes about what happened to her, was very VERY supportive and compassionate and told her that if she needed anything I was only a phone call away. But wow, when the Care Van arrived she leapt up and shot out the door before I could even say goodbye.
I realize that you cannot know what was chopped out of a letter to these stupid Annie women, but THEY knew, and they still chastized me for not "taking the opportunity" to be compassionate to her! And the comment about
"not being able to get your fat ass out of the chair" after she'd told me to go (it was a recliner) and rest a bit: NOT addressed at all.
A lot of you here are judgemental witches, and would get along great with this evil cow (who says things such as "Let's tie him [bro] up and shove him out of the car doing eighty!! He's so fat he'd bounce!" He's 6'5" tall, weighed 250 lbs, we played tennis five times a week and were in great shape, btw. Not that anyone here would care.)
So, you won't be seeing me here again, and from the tone, I will not be missed. I most surely will not miss most of you. If I wanted pain I'd hit myself in the head with a brick.

@ Samantha Kimmel

Thank you so much for logging in and filling us in on all the missing bits from the real story. While I can understand editing a letter for brevity, deleting relevant information so as to throw off the entire context is just wrong. I am so sorry for all you've been put through and I hope your husband is doing great now. My original advice to cut the bitch out of your life forever still stands! Maybe you can accidentally on purpose get in one good right hook beforehand! ;-)

Re: jar8818

Good point about the illness. It would be interesting to know if this was a sudden change in personality: my first thought was that the LW and Anabel had always had a cantankerous relationship, but after rereading the letter, it does seem like this could have been something recent. Otherwise, why would the LW have called Anabel FIRST after the stroke?

I really feel that the LW is under so much stress at this point that she has to find someone to lash out on and it's Anabel. It's always easier to lash out at family (they always have you in theirs lives) than at a stranger, and the LW has undergone some pretty traumatic stuff lately. First they move (always hard) and then her husband has a stroke. I don't get the pizza ballisticism though. It could have been restricted for the husband's diet, but maybe Anabel was thinking it would be good for guests? I know when my dad was dying people brought food into the waiting room for us: Dad couldn't eat obviously, but we had to and we couldn't leave the hospital so it was a kindness to us.

At any rate, until the LW can calm down, she should stay away from what is causing her stress. I do feel for Anabel though... and would love to know her side of the story.

@Samantha Kimmel, although we have no way of knowing for sure that you are indeed the LW, if you are a regular reader of the below-the-line comments you know that what most of us do is try to explore whether or not the Annies advice is sufficient, or even realistic. We also try to understand the backstory, because we know the letters are edited, and we also know that there is always another side to the story. A lot of "playing Devil's Advocate" goes on, which you probably already knew if you'd read this stuff regularly.

If you are the LW, I'm sorry that the Annies advice and the BTL discussion added to your distress. However, I have to say, given the way you unloaded on everyone even after you acknowledged that we didn't have all the facts, is pretty extreme.

If you yourself act in certain ways under stress, so do other people, even if we only see those other people as "evil cows". There may be all sorts of reasons your SIL acts the way she does that we don't know about, and maybe even you don't know about. If you can't arrange a truce with her, if you can't find a compromise, then all you can do is minimize contact and try to find ways to rise above it.

And maybe seek assistance for dealing with the stress and anxiety you've been going through -- your response here makes it pretty clear a lot of anger and tension has been building up for a while, and if unloading on a bunch of strangers on the internet helped release some of that tension, then at least some good may have come out of it. But don't hesitate to find some other real-life assistance to talk through this, there's no need to let it all build up and deal with it on your own.

Re: Samantha Kimmel

Before I respond, Samantha, let me first convey my sympathies for your situation. Also, my last response to jar was made before I read your post.

Regardless, I don't think you are reading our responses correctly. First of all, when we read a letter here on the Annies, you know (because you are a long term poster here) that we don't have all the facts. To call us names ("witches"?) because we express an opinion is unfair. We are going off of the information that we have available. I thank you for the clarification, but you yourself KNOW that we don't always have the information and your comments were totally unfair to people here BTL that may be trying to read between the lines.

I also think you need to look at the advice given anyways. No one, not even myself, told you that your SIL's comments were correct. What we tried to do, Samantha was give you some real advice on how to act moving forward. Your last post was so angry. Samantha, I know you are in an impossible situation. And you are in a new town. And you have a SIL who is at the very best a pain your backside and at the worst a detreiment to your husband's AND YOUR'S health. You need help and we gave you some really good help. I hope you get past your anger enough to listen to it.

My advice in my first post still stands. And I wish you would have come directly to us here, since you are already BTL. If we had known the whole story, it may have changed several responses.

I saw on HLN's Robin Meade Morning Express last week an article about match.com's recent poll. They surveyed their uses and 27% of single people today 21 and older expressed absolutely no interest in marriage. They don't see any benefit to it. Further 40% of those single and 21 and older were at least unsure if they wanted to get married in the future. Not a surprise when you consider how many of them grew up in homes where the parents were divorced. In the 80's and 90's divorce rates grew to the point that better than fifty percent ended in divorce before 5 years. So its not surprising to me that LW2 has a boyfriend that doesn't want to marry. But she didn't help her case by living with him, having children with him, and mixing their financial situations together with cars, home, and businesses owned jointly. I think this lady really has to ask herself how important is a little piece of paper to her. I am married but I can tell you that saying I do in front of witnesses did not make me any more committed to my husband than I already was. I had already decided that he was my future. This was just making it "legal" in front of the government, and celebrating our commitment to each other with our family and friends. She has already shares everything with him that a wife shares with a husband. She sounds kinda weak though, to issue ultimatum after ultimatum and still remains with him. He knows she is not going to walk based on past experience. If she wants marriage she needs to see a lawyer about untangling their joint assets and walks out with her children and searches for someone to marry her elsewhere cause her boyfriend isn't going to do it. Why should he? He has it all right now.

Samantha - thanks for writing in. I could not imagine that you did not sit and talk with Anabel after seeing her in re-hab. What the Annies told you about that was rediculous. Please give yourself permission to ignore her. No notes, letters, reaching out or whatever. Your husband can deal wiht her as he sees fit but you do not have to expose yourself to this bitch. You can't fix her. You can only make it bearable for you. Good luck and I hope your husband is doing okay.

Why on earth would you want to force this man into marriage when his actions or lack thereof clearly indicate he doesn't want to be married? Do you not think that IF he agrees to marriage that over time he will begin to feel resentful?? And what about you, could you live with the fact that he didn't marry you out of love but because you forced him into it. Is that a gamble you are willing to take? Marry me or else?? As other posters have pointed out, protect yourself, children, business, home, etc. legally. Once that is done you only have two options, accept him for who he is as he is or leave him and move on.

One of the most important things in any relationship, at least in my opinion is respect for your partner. One of the most disastrous is thinking you can change your partner, only he or she can do that. Accept them as they are, if you can not do that there is no point in continuing the relationship.

LW2 doesn't state her reasons for wanting to marry now, although heaven only knows what she wrote before the editors got ahold of her letter. Anyway, while many of the legal protections of marriage can be taken care of by other means (power of attorney, health care, etc.), there are some things that can't. Medical insurance through an employer is obviously a big one.

Another that comes to mind because of a friends situation is social security survivors benefits. This friend became pregnant by her 65 year old boyfriend who was 40 years her senior. At first they were not going to get married, but then realized that if he died before their child was 16, which was a very possible, my friend would received social security in the child's name, but she would not be eligible for survivor's benefits herself. So they did get married, had two children, and had a very happy marriage until he died from a brain tumor 5 or so years later.

"You had a slight opportunity to improve things by showing Anabel some sympathy about her condition"
Really, Annie? REALLY? You are going to go there? I give up. You two are the biggest "But they're FAAAMMMIIILLLYYY!!!! We must LOVE them!!! Put up with ANYTHING because of DNA!" unicorns I have seen in a while. Someone that nasty is just that nasty, faaammmiiilllyyy or not.
And the LW (thanks for cutting the important bits out of the letter, ladies) said that her husband was "cordial" to his sister. It doesn't sound like he is worried about losing his beloved Sissie.
LW1, next time she says something nasty, turn around and let her have it, coldly, emotionlessly, and without showing anger. Let her know you won't take her crap.

@LW2...if she goes to a lawyer, gets the joint assets sorted out, could either of them just walk out with the children? Aren't assets and children (custody) two separate things?

Samantha
If all you read was "I talked to Anabel, and she finally confessed that she'd nearly died a year before. When I asked why she hadn't told anyone, she simply shrugged. I told her she would have been furious if I hadn't notified her of my husband's stroke.", it does sound like your SIL almost died and you made it all about you and/or your husband.

That is all anybody here BTL, or anybody anywhere in the world reading this column, saw. You do have very legitimate complaints against the editors for leaving important details out and the Annie's for ignoring what they 'did' know.

I also understand why reading the posts BTL would have been upsetting. But as a long-time reader/poster of this column, you know that if all you see is the edited version of the original letter, incorrect assumptions are going to be made, and that is what happened here. Hopefully, saying posters BTL are witches was a gut response to being upset, and you will reconsider your feelings about posting here.

Re: the Annie's comment "You had a slight opportunity to improve things by showing Anabel some sympathy about her condition" was totally uncalled for since they 'did' know all the facts from the original letter. Recently they said to a LW "we had sympathy for you until.........." about what seemed to me reasonable and honest feeling re: her MIL. Add that newish twist to menopause and poor editing to make you not want to read this column.

There are probably thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people like me who read BTL at Creator's everyday, even if they post never or rarely. I am actually one of those who is scared to post, but what the heck, I guess. So I hope you don't leave and quit posting - the regular posters are thinning out, and I don't want to hear the same thing from the same people all of the time - there needs to be some variety to keep it interesting. I guess that last part is kind of in response to Penny, also.

(Sorry if this is a double post - captcha problems)

Samantha Kimmel -- I appreciate your additional information; it reinforces what I was going to say anyway.

Anabel is a deeply unhappy person, and quite possibly (probably?) mentally ill. She's unable to give or receive love, and she's shown you that time and again, so you actually have an advantage in this situation. If your husband wishes to maintain contact with her, I'd recommend making it as minimal as possible, keep in mind the source of the comments, and that both you and he make it a point of being extra nice to yourselves each time you have contact with her.

Words ARE hurtful, but you minimize the sting when you consider the source. When my kids were growing up, we borrowed a saying from another family -- and used it like this: "Mom! Jeremy says I'm not going to get any Christmas presents!" Me: "Well, you know what Jeremy's talking like, right?" Jeremy's sibling: "Yes! Jeremy's talking like a SILLY SAUSAGE!"

If you can find yourself an adult version of "silly sausage" to repeat to yourself, it might help. Or practice saying aloud, "Oh, Anabel, how you DO go on!" (channel your inner Scarlett O'Hara for that) while shaking your head with a smile.

It might also help if you can play "can you top this" with your husband afterward, since it seems that Anabel delights in making these remarks to you each when you're alone. Samantha: "OK, I think this one wins -- Anabel told me she wouldn't be able to pull my fat ass out of the chair if I sat down" Samantha's husband: "Oh, no, hon -- mine wins. She actually brought me a slice of pizza -- in her handbag! Right after I got done telling her I was on a low-salt diet! Think I could have her charged with attempted homicide?" Maybe the " winner" gets a massage, or choice of the movie next Saturday, or whatever else.

[Side note: If Anabel brings ANY food/drink to either of you, or to a family celebration, don't serve it. Smile and say, "Oh how sweet of you. I've already got [dessert/side dishes/punch] taken care of, so we'll just put this aside to enjoy later." And then toss it after she's gone."]

Point being: This is how you diminish Anabel's power. People who are ridiculous don't have the power to wound. So tell your husband you're willing to go along with his decision because you love him...but that you think it's only fair that both of you recognize this is a more difficult task than run of the mill in-law relations, and that you need to make your own rewards.

LW1- (My MO is that I read the letter, type an answer, THEN I read the Annies' response and BTL - in that order, and possibly add accordingly to my answer. This is my original response before I got to read post #19)

*************************************************
"Can you think of any other way to deal with the situation? "
If your husband insist on being cordial to someone who behaves this way, frankly, no. Two questions:
1. You knew how she was. Why did you call her to the rescue when your husband had a stroke? Surely there would have been someone else in that "miserable breed" who is a little less bad?
2. How is it that your husband tolerates the steady fire of nasty jabs against you? Could it be that he really agrees with it, and that he chooses to be passive-aggressive about it, preferring to let his sister do the dirty work while he bears no other weapon but a smile?

Frankly, what you should do about this revolves around the answer to this, especially #2. At one point, unless you are prepared to tolerate this for the rest of your life, it may be that for you to "remove yourself from the equation by staying away whenever possible", may mean permanent removal.

Hm, Annies?
"You had a slight opportunity to improve things by showing Anabel some sympathy about her condition, but we understand that you were too upset to do so."
There was NO opportunity to improve anything, not with someone like that. But you HAVE to find a way put the blame on the LW, don't you?
******************************************************************
Dear Samantha:
Thank you thank you thank you for providing the details chopped off by the resident two battle-axes named the Annies.

All I can add is that my heart goes out to you. But why is your husband so cordial to someone who's as nasty even to him as what you describe? And why didn't he just politely decline the pizza she sneaked in, knowing full well how harmful it could be?

I hope you're still reading. You are a regular, if not an everyday poster here. You will know that there are some here who will be devil's advocates. There are also some who are... shall we say, not very compassionate. Everywhere you go, there will be some who get their jollies by kicking people when they're down. So whenever you make public a problem you're experiencing, you're exposing yourself to the unkindness of some. Unfortunately, you're also exposing your letter to being amputated in the name of editing, which in this case is pure vandalism and outright dishonesty. I wonder how often they do that, and what exactly is missing from all the other letters.

I have no doubt that the BTL responses would have been vastly different, had you come to us directly with your original letter. I understand your shock and pain (trust me, I do - remember the housing crisis?). Please don't leave. I would miss you, and others too. And you do have some genuine support here, even if it may not feel like it right now.

Hm, Annies?
"You had a slight opportunity to improve things by showing Anabel some sympathy about her condition, but we understand that you were too upset to do so."
Considering what was left out of the original letter, which you undoubtedly saw, you have NO EXCUSE dishing out that nasty little dig. Add to the digging and kick someone in the face when she's down, why don't you. Dig-dig-dig-dig-dig. What in the world is WRONG with people like you two? Yrrrch.

@jar
"Sometimes I wish I had gone into that field, it's rather interesting to me."
Then why don't you? Learning carries its own rewards, and you don't have to want to make a career out of it to justify it! Do a part-time degree, knock yourself out!

@Jers
"Just leave the room, house, building, whatever, when she starts. "
"She brought the (salt-laden) pizza HIDDEN (also in the original letter) in her purse, and she gave it to him when I and the RN's were not there."
THIS is what happens when she leaves the room and gives her ten minutes alone with him!

@Mike H
I have no problem believing Samantha is the LW - her pain and her outrage certainly have the ring of truth. And why would a regular poster, identifying herself, lie about something like that?

LW2-
What you should do it check with a lawyer whether and how your participation to the business and joint ownerships are protected. Then, you have to decide what your priorities are. Him or marriage? You may not be able to get both. If marriage is that important to you, then you should stop talking and start doing - whatever "ultimatum" you've given him in the past was obviously not for real since you're still there. Why should he give in, when he knows you don't mean it, and when things are obviously exactly the way he likes them?

But you, are you sure you want to throw it all out because of a piece of paper? Keep in mind there is more to this situation than a jointly owned car, house ane business. There are children here. Seems to me you got yourself pretty deep in, for someone who is so strongly dissatisfied with a basic premise of the relationship. What took you all this time to wake up?

And... What Mike H said.

@Paula
"I can tell you that saying I do in front of witnesses did not make me any more committed to my husband than I already was."
In many cases, it is not the commitment which needs shoring up but the legal protections. What Lucy and Chris said.

@nanchan
If you really think he can "honestly" say he's single, your definition is not the same as mine. Singledom to me does not include someone living maritally for ten years with children and a jointly owned car, house and business. Considering the children and the joint assets, even legally, he is isn't all that single. For him to say that he is would be playing with words and disingeneous at the very least, and I'm shocked that you seem to find this acceptable.

Re: Misa

Because the LW is not married to the boyfriend/babydaddy, each situation will have to be treated separately.

In my state, child custody/support laws are handled the same for unmarried or married couples. Usually one parent files for custody in these cases, otherwise the courts can't KNOW. The first thing that happens then is that both parents are put through parenting classes. If both parents live in the state (which it sounds like is the case here), they go through the motions the court decides. In my state, not being married has almost no impact on child support or custody.

Dissolution of property (cars) would probably happen in small claims courts.

Dissolution of a business would have to be negotiated with the help of an attorney (depending on the value of the business). This is the sticky wicket in the equation for the LW. IF both the LW and her "boyfriend" have the business as their primary source of income, they will either need to learn to work together, or one partner or the other can buy the other out. Depending on how they formulated the business (I own an LLC) and where they own it, there are state requirements that happen at incorporation that may need to revisit. For example: my business partner and I are listed as officers in the corporation. That means my business partner is legally responsible for the business although I am listed as the owner (I call him my partner because in my book, anyone who owns even a small part of my business IS a partner).

Disolving the business partnership is probably going to be the hardest part of the separation, if the LW decides to do that. Even in a traditional marriage, if one or the other owns a piece of a business (or has a pension) that is often the worst part of the division of property. My father actually gave his 2nd wife a house worth about 3 million dollars and made himself a renter and cash poor for two years to keep his 2nd wife from disolving his business. (Karma got that woman: though the house was worth 3 M at time of listing, she sold it for under 1M because the market crashed so hard). Depending on how the business is set up (is the LW listed as an officer? Did she give the boyfriend money and it's not on paper that they own the business together?) this peice of the puzzle could well be the one that is hardest to fit.

At any rate, I so hope that some of the people reading these comments will take heed about the complications that the LW is facing. A marriage certificate does not ensure a successful life, it's not the Golden Ticket to happiness, but it does protect people in a marriage. Usually the wife (which is what it was intended to do: protect the wife and children).

I also wonder why the LW waited several years to make this an issue, but suspect she didn't think she'd have to wait this long.

Re: C Meier

Excellent post.

@Lise, just covering the bases -- we've had several posters whose names got co-opted by impostors trying to stir up trouble, and we've also had commenters in the past admit that they fabricated parts of their post in order to stir up trouble.

So, it's not out of the realm of possibility, although I agree it's unlikely. Still, I've been fooled before, on this very forum.

And I don't mean anything at all insulting by it; just raising the possibility, since it's happened before.

Also, perhaps I should qualify, because I will say that even knowing more of the situation, I'd be likely to offer a relatively similar comment as I did. It's important to know if Anabel has the same reaction to everyone in the family, or just Samantha, because that will determine if Samantha can do anything about it and whether or not Samantha is likely to have any allies in the family regarding the trouble with Anabel.

I'm sympathetic towards anyone dealing with a toxic person in their life, and I've often been an advocate of putting distance between yourself and a toxic person whenever possible. I myself had to do something similar with a relative who caused enormous amounts of trouble over a decade ago.

However, I think it's still an important principle to keep in mind: that there IS always another side to the story, and sometimes remembering that can actually help the situation. Even when it can't, it still can help our own adjustment to a toxic situation.

Everyone has justifications and rationalizations for what they do. The most wicked person on earth doesn't wake up and think, "oh, I'll do something wicked today!"; instead, they plan to do what they think they need to, because they feel they have a justification; when someone calls them out on their behavior, they'll trot out a rationalization - that they *aren't* evil, they're just (fill-in-the-blank: misunderstood, doing the best they can, the other person deserves it because... ). We're almost always the heroes in our own stories; and when pressed, most people get defensive and justify their actions rather than acknowledge their behavior was wrong.

Anabel likely doesn't consider herself an "evil cow", and somewhere inside she has reasons for responding the way she does, either conscious or subconscious reasons; and understanding that may help discover that there may be triggers in dealing with Anabel that make her callous behavior more likely to occur.

That's not a slam on Samantha or anyone else in a similar situation; the difference is whether or not you CAN put distance between yourself and the toxic person, because sometimes that's not possible (like often with family). If you ARE stuck, then the only thing you can change is your own behaviors and your own reactions -- and understanding what sets off the toxic person may simply be a matter of survival.

In terms of commenters BTL, there's also the difference between being a neutral third-party commenter, who can express sympathy but also explore aspects of the situation that may not be comfortable or immediately obvious; or a friend or supporter of the person dealing with the situation, who would obviously rally around the person first and foremost.

If a toxic person starts affecting a friend of mine, my initial reaction is usually not particularly level-headed. ("You want I should get some guys to break her legs? I know people who know people. Just say the word.") Sure, I exaggerate that for effect, and a little humor can help a friend who is in stress, but my friends know the basic sentiment is real. But... after venting a bit, THEN we get down to talking about what realistic options there are for dealing with the toxic person that's hurting my friend.

Again, no lack of sympathy for the situation implied or intended.

@ Mike H Re: Comment #36

Excellent post!

LW2: I agree that the time to consider this was before you had babies and got financially entangled with this man. As to how to deal with this now, remember that there are generally two reasons that men don't want to get married, IME ( of course women have their own reasons but that's not the topic here). One is that in the back of their mind they wonder if there is someone better out there, and the other is because they imagine that they are doing women a big fat favor financially and stand to lose the most if the marriage fails. This offends me greatly because while this was once true when women didn't work most of us are working and contribute equally to the marriage, and men now see an increase in their standard of living just like women when they get married. Let's assume his issue is option number 2 (cause if it's not you have other problems). You have two choices now: throw him out, which it's clear you don't want to do and maybe with good reason, or begin to live your life and handle your affairs with the understanding that you don't have the protection of marriage. I'm guessing you work, since you have joint business ventures, so set up a separate bank account. When he asks why, just tell him you accept that he doesn't want to be married and you are protecting yourself. The balance of power is upset here because you want something that he can give you, but you give him everything he wants already; sex, finances completely comingled, kids, probably cooking, etc. My husband dragged his feet a bit but I just refused to join anything financially and didn't even tell him what I made until the wedding was planned (let's just say I make a very good living). I also made it clear that while I loved him marriage was something I wanted and if it wasn't something he wanted I understood but I would have to consider other options and guess what? We were engaged and married after that. When you drop the subject and start living your life as if you don't care whether you get married or not and he's not doing you a favor by marrying you he may decide that it's something he wants; that's what happened to me. If not, he doesn't want marriage, at least not with you, so live your life accordingly. This doesn't mean you can't remain with him and be happy, just that you have to start living your life on some of your own terms. Good luck.

Re: Mike H

Re: Mike H

Your point about it being a possible imposter came across to me as a bit paranoid, although I do know several "identities" have been poached here. Perhaps the better entitiy to rail on would be Creators, since they can't figure out who is who (unique user names tied to the internet connection) or how to make their site more effective. Just saying.

@nanchan, "railing"? Really? My post was quite mild, hardly "railing", so I'm honestly not sure where you got that. I've just re-read it, and I still don't see anything that can be described as such.

I simply mentioned the possibility, which you yourself acknowledge has happened. But, if other regulars also feel I was too strong in my language, I'll certainly take that under advisement.

@Chris, thank you!

@ nanchan

I can see where Mike H is coming from. I freely admitted that I once wrote a very incendiary comment just to bait Lise. (Much to my surprise, she not only didn't fall for it but in fact responded quite civilly with common sense and great poise!) It's true that there have been several instances where user names have been co-opted by impersonators. Just today, Penny mentioned that her user name was used on Friday but the comment wasn't hers. Don't be too hard on Mike. You're both valuable posters whose comments and unique perspectives I, and others enjoy immensely. I for one am glad you're both BTL! :-) Enjoy the Super bowl! I'm looking forward to my girl Madonna's performance!!! (Did that sound too gay?)

@nanchan, to be fair, I didn't respond to the paranoid part of your comment, and as you and Lise seem to be in agreement that raising this possibility was unnecessary, I won't put up too much of a fight on that aspect of things.

For myself, I think it would have seemed more paranoid if I'd claimed that I *knew* that Samantha was an impostor and that she was setting things up to make *me* look foolish and to turn the world against me. Simply raising the possibility with the word "if" seems to me more just a recognition of a reality that most of us tend to forget, honestly.

But if it came off as paranoid, that was certainly not intended. And Ive often said that Creators should have a better system.

There are things I think we'd all do well to remember more often, along these lines:

1) There are real people behind each screen name.
2) These real people most likely have rich, complex lives that have nothing to do with their time here.
3) These real people are only sharing one aspect of themselves in how they express themselves online.
4) These real people may not always be honest, even when they claim firmly that they are being honest.
5) Internet anonymity sometimes increases the melodrama and intensity of posting far beyond what most people would do in real-life conversations, even heated ones.

@Chris, thanks again. And no, it's not too gay at all, I'm looking forward to it as well! (Although as a Patriots fan, I'm looking forward to the whole game).

In fact, Ike is reminding me we have to leave to go to a Superbowl party at a friends' home, so this will be it for me today. Hope everyone who watches enjoys the game, and GO PATS! :-)

Re: Post #41

Okay, so who stole Chris' name today to post what could be described as a sweet and sympathetic post?

Re: Mike H.

I re-read your post and it was not too harsh by any means. Your first line in post #22 could, I guess, we read as snotty or snide, but since there is no reason for you to have said that way, it didn't occur to me to read it that way the first time I read it.

@ Zoe

Touche!

Re: Mike H

I know, I know... I just feel that she's already so distraught that she migh feel this is yet another attack.

As an aside, perhaps you and Chris (or someone else) can enlighten me: why do so many gays seem to be so goo-goo-ga-ga on Madonna? Amongst the many I know, it's like an epidemic!

This is not meant as a criticism of her, mind you, I just don't understand why such an infatuation on her in particular? What does she have that attracts gays?

@ Lise Brouillette

OMG!! Madonna? She's only just the best, the most awesome, the Queen of Pop, the EVERYTHING!!! :-P

thank you MIke. hope you have a great time at the party.

Re: Chris
Okay. But why is Kristina Aguilera, or Lady Gaga, or Celine Dion (for instance) not the best? I mean, hey - Madonna is not the only one who's good!

As crazy as her outfits are, Lady Gaga is 10 times the singer Madonna is.

I've never liked Madonna, she irritates the crap out of me.

Re: Samantha Kimmel
Did you write that she "confessed" to almost dying or she claimed or told you she almost died. A confession makes it sound like you were interrogating her. But I know from my aquaintances, that many CLAIM really bad things to have happened to them to One-up someone who has a really bad problem now. An example is a former friend I took in because she needed a place to live (free) where she could keep her cat. I really did not have room for her in my place and we clashed on lots of issues. So I asked her to find a place for herself. After I had surgery for cervical cancer, she couldn't move out because she found she had breast cancer which required chemotherapy and radiation, which miraculously was always done once a week during my 2 1/2 hour evening biology class. The last I heard from her, she was totally disabled for the fourth time...and she was living with another good samaritan. So I think your SIL's claim was meant to make you sorry for her so she could zing you more..
Further, I think you had good reason to throw SIL out of your husband's room permanently for bring in pizza for him when he was on a very low sodium diet. Her act was tantamount to a friend's bringing a new fix to a patient in the hospital after his almost dying from an overdose. NOT a gift of love! (Keep working on your new healthy diet.)

Re: Samantha Kimmel
Did you write that she "confessed" to almost dying or she claimed or told you she almost died. A confession makes it sound like you were interrogating her. But I know from my aquaintances, that many CLAIM really bad things to have happened to them to One-up someone who has a really bad problem now. An example is a former friend I took in because she needed a place to live (free) where she could keep her cat. I really did not have room for her in my place and we clashed on lots of issues. So I asked her to find a place for herself. After I had surgery for cervical cancer, she couldn't move out because she found she had breast cancer which required chemotherapy and radiation, which miraculously was always done once a week during my 2 1/2 hour evening biology class. The last I heard from her, she was totally disabled for the fourth time...and she was living with another good samaritan. So I think your SIL's claim was meant to make you sorry for her so she could zing you more..
Further, I think you had good reason to throw SIL out of your husband's room permanently for bring in pizza for him when he was on a very low sodium diet. Her act was tantamount to a friend's bringing a new fix to a patient in the hospital after his almost dying from an overdose. NOT a gift of love! (Keep working on your new healthy diet.)

Re: Lenore #12, Interesting thought to pass on. I, too, pick up gift cards for the ever present WALMART. Has something for everyone instead of a speciality store. I buy $5.00 cards. Only YOU know what is on the card, so dishing out to a whole room of kids--put their names on them ahead of time so you know who got $5 and who gets $50.
I keep extras on hand for that WHOOPS gift I forgot to get--anytime special gift too. Valentines coming up and I got extra cards at McD at Christmas, granddaughters will get. If you get the generic card each might have, you can pull it off any time of the year.
Our local radio station holds call in auctions once a week and you get good deals. I use these certificates as well for gifts. Whether to the local bakery, or to go bowling, or the local night spot for eating or $2 DQ Blizzard coupons-- I can find one to fit alot of friends and not get stuck without something. You save 25-50%, the business gets its ads paid. This is a small community and everyone gets something. Another gifting is our community has BUCKs which can be purchased at the Chamber and you can use them all over town from groceries to gas and inbetween. Everyone accepts them. BUT it keeps the money local 100%.

So much for the football game here. CHARTER went out. Came back on half way into 3rd quarter. Thousands have been calling complaining. The feed took out a huge chunk of the MN mapping.
Yeah, thought too late to turn the computer on NBC sports. All I wanted was the half time show, my neighbor was calling cause he wanted the whole game. Charter is going to have to choke up bucks on the account. They should have cleared all issues before the game started tonight. What happens is full digital puzzle break down and stuttering of the audio.
I see they still have not moved much beyond the score back then----As you can see, I don't follow football, esp the state team of the VIKINGS. give me baseball and I can make sense of it. When you can play it, you can understand it. My favorite is the swimming and diving events NBC carries, esp preparing for finals before Olympics. My little girls will watch intently for hours. Also, the equestrian events---growing up with WESTERN horse riding---I also like bronc and rodeo.

@ Lise

Of course I also LOVE Christina Aguilera and Celine Dione (very, very awesome btw!!!) It's just that Madonna has always held a special place in my heart! :-) I can't explain it. Madonna did a great job at the half time show this year. I didn't expect anything less.

Re: Chris
Oh, I wouldnn't expect anything less either - she's a consumate performer and a real stage beast. It's just that there are dozens other consumate performers and stage beasts out there! And all the gays I know are absolutely ape-shit crazy about her, goo-goo-ga-ga like she's a live goddess, to the exclusion of anyone else, it's like a gay cult or something. Very strange!

Lise:

SIgh. Another predictable response from you regarding someone who is described by another as mean, vile and vindictive. Another response about someone else close to the "villian" -- in this case, the LW's husband, who has (of all things, suffered a stroke -- is somehow an enabler.

You talk about people getting pleasure from kicking people while they are down. I honestly don't think you're that type ... but you're still kicking someone while he's down. The man who suffered the stroke, by suggesting he's secretly this mean, evil, vile person who is successful in hiding his contempt for others, simply by refusing to speak up when his sister begins saying mean, cruel things about others.

Could the reason LW1 contacted his sister is ... BECAUSE SHE'S HIS SISTER??!! I don't care how cruel or mean she is. Unless there is a valid reason why HE wants no contact with her, it is just as cruel and mean to have not informed her that her brother had fallen ill.

Passive about her abuse because he condones/agrees with it? Do you really know that for sure? I don't, but I can guess that he either wants to make nice, is not aware of the abuse (remember, when she was away from her brother, she began spewing her venom) ... or simply understands his sister and sees whatever good qualities she may have.

To be fair -- in this case, I do sense that the SIL is mean, nasty and vile and deserves as little time as possible. The LW that option with her SIL. The brother in law might not have that same option ... and it isn't because she'd have him written out of the will or some other idle threat she made.

Re: Bobaloo

Frankly, you're reading a LOT more in my answer than I put in. "Do you really know that for sure? " Of course not, but I've seen that happen too many times to count and it is definitely a plausible hypothesis.

Indeed I would be kicking him when he's down if I really thought he's mean, evil,and vile, but you have no reason to think this is the case - this is taking my A to B reasoning and driving it all the way to Z and then blaming me for the Z. I don't think he's vile, I think there is a possibility he is a passive-aggressive wimp. And BTW, the fact that he just had a stroke doesn't erase whatever shortcomings he might have, nor is it going to give him a pair if he is lacking it. I don't know if he is of course, which is why I was presenting the hypothesis as a question.

I really would be interested to know why he never addressed any of her nasty words to his wife, not any of her nastiness even to himself in fact. Seems to me like a really extreme version of making nice. And yes, if he is cordial with the nasty sister, thus giving "her carte blanche to keep babbling about how horrible we are", that would qualify as being an enabler... A lot of perfectly good people are enablers, because they misguidingly believe it's the better option. How does being the victim of a stroke change that? It doesn't make him a flawless saint!

At any rate, I think Samantha Kimmel is the one who can take me to task if she believes I was out of line, in which case I would apologise because it sure wasn't my intent. But I sure hope she doesn't put words in my mouth like you just did.

LW2 - I'm surprised no one conjectured that the reluctant boyfriend may be, in fact, already married, and doesn't want to admit he didn't get a divorce. That aside, as others have pointed out, there are other ways for her to protect herself besides marriage. Sound like they have a nice relationship going - be a shame to toss it away.

I really like Madonna, too, but can't stand Celine Dionne (and I can't spell her name, either).

Re: C Meier-30-'Samantha If all you read was "I talked to Anabel, and she finally confessed that she'd nearly died a year before. When I asked why she hadn't told anyone, she simply shrugged. I told her she would have been furious if I hadn't notified her of my husband's stroke.", it does sound like your SIL almost died and you made it all about you and/or your husband.'
c-i think you misunderstand samantha's reason for saying what she did. she was trying to get, i think, her sister-in-law to understand how they felt when anabel didn't let them know she was so ill. the easiest way to do that was exactly the way she did it, by putting it into perspective.
and to give a stroke patient a slice of pizzeria pizza, loaded with grease and salt is criminal! before you all hop on me telling me how healthy your homemade pizza is, i'm not saying pizza can't be healthy, but most pizzerias go for the salt and grease.

FTR I can completely understand why one would WANT to be married. What I don't get is the Annie's advice to dump him if he won't marry her. That's the most idiotic thing that's come out of their pens yet I think. Dumping him destroys a family she willingly built with him without the benefit of marriage on paper. And does nothing to give her the protections she may be seeking (again we don't know why she wants to marry or why he doesn't). I think she should figure that out before ripping up a family because of its marriage free status she willingly entered into.

Re: Samantha Kimmel

I'm glad that you came in BTL and let us know what you REALLY wrote. I'm sorry you have to put up with such a beetch of a SIL. I have a grandfather like that. First thing he said to me after 18 years was "Damn, girl, you sure are a little fatty!" Most of the regular's know how I retaliated! ;-)

Unfortunately, I don't have any constructive advice for you. My retaliation on worked because the rest of the family stood by me. Perhaps your husband could stop being so cordial and start telling his sister to knock it off when she spews one of her insulting and inappropraite remarks?

Re: Barbara B.

Good catch about the boyfriend possibly being still married. In which case it is of the utmost urgency that the LW get to the bottom of this, because it is highly probable (seeing that if he neglected to finalise a divorce, he probably didn't bother with a will either), should something happen to him, that whatever he has that can be inherited will go to his children and HER.

I don't par-ti-cu-lar-ly like Celine Dion... I like her as a person. But if I had her voice... I wouldn't be singing what she sings, nor the way she sings it. And I wouldn't be selling toys and jewellery in flea markets! But then again - neither is she, although her path to stardom was not all that easy.

Re: Kelle
"Perhaps your husband could stop being so cordial and start telling his sister to knock it off when she spews one of her insulting and inappropraite remarks?"
Therein lies half the problem - her husband is NOT standing by her. When I pointed that out, Bopaloo jumped down my throat. I'd be curious how long SHE would put up with that yurunda.

alien-

I know what Samantha meant after reading her post. My point was that just reading what the editors left out of her original letter is all anybody had to go by. This is why I hardly ever post. So many misunderstandings.

I meant what the editors left 'in' Samantha's original post in #65. Maybe if I typed what i meant it would help avoid the misunderstandings that I spoke of. However, I have to wonder if alien read all of my earlier post, because I thought I had made it pretty clear that I was being critical of the Annie's and the editors, not Samanatha, giving my take on why I thought some of the initial posters responded as unsympathetically as they did, and saying I hoped she remained as a reader and poster.

Re: Chris and the others who understood the truth of my owning up to the letter
being mine, and for their compassion when I told, again, the truth that the letter had been
edited to make me look like a vicious beast, thank you very much.
And Georgie: I got your wonderful note and tried to respond but the email wouldn't go through!
I had given you thanks and appreciation for your direct email to me and it most certainly made
me feel much better.
To the people who said things like I have a problem with anger or pain or other issues and was
using "Anabel" as a dartboard, PPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHBBBBBBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
to you all. That is most definitely not the case, and you all seemed to have ignored what I wrote that the
AnnieIdiots DID leave in the letter: that she does not let two minutes go b y without a nasty, vicious comment
about my husband, or her other relatives. I do not hate her; I feel sorry for her.(The following was
not in my original letter, but it matters so here it is): She has self-esteem issues of epic proportion
and is totally deluded about why she is such a bitch: she is a lesbian but would rather step in front of a
speeding train than admit to it (which is, I know, her right) but Holy Hannah on a Jumped Up Jesus Mobile!! Being
ashamed of who you are doesn't give you the right to lash out at your own brother ALL THE TIME! I
am (well, was) exhausted by her continual ferally nasty, mean comments to and about my husband. Like this
one, which she said a few years ago, to my husband: "Gosh, there was a truck crashed downtown today
but I didn't want to tell you because it was a Little Debbie's truck and with your being so fat, I thought you'd kill yourself if you didn't get your snack cakes for the day!"
Yeah. I thought about it. I thought about telling her "Gee, we saw that an Eli Lilly truck had crashed and were
terrified that you wouldn't get your THORAZINE!!!" I didn't say a word, nor did I react in any way to her vicious
comments. The fact that we played tennis for two hours, five days a week tells you what kind of shape we were in, but that didn't stop her from trying to get that dig in.
Another bemusing and confusing anecdote: Before the hubs stroke, we were invited to a surprise party for his cousin, and MIL gave us the time and directions
to the cousin's home. Well, the time she gave us was HALF AN HOUR AFTER the party was supposed to start, and the directions led us to a closed Buick dealership. When we finally arrived at the party, the surprise part was
blown, but I made an apology to the birthday girl, and laughed about ending up at the closed car store.
MIL took this unbelievable inocuous comment as an attack on her, retreated to the kitchen and left without
a word to us an hour later. When I called her that night to see if she was all right, she snapped "What do you want?
Wasn't it enough that you humiliated me today??" I was, stupidly, stunned. (I shoulda known better, that she would be all ready with an idiotic response to a person calling and asking if she was all right.) I told her that I was sorry she felt that I'd made her feel bad, and that certainly wasn't my intent, she's my MIL and I love her, and so on, but she huffed and puffed, so I handed the phone to my husband and told him, "You deal with this. She's off her meds again, I think." He repeated to her what I had said, but she slammed down the phone. (Well, as best one can with a hand held phone.)
Add these nasty verbal barrages to about a thousand others, and one can understand why I don't want to
be around her. And, right now, I truly have no idea what spurred me to write the original letter because
I am exhausted just thinking about her and her troubled self. I am done with her.
To all who saw past the Annie's unbelievable butchery of my letter to make it seem as if I was the one
with mental health problems, thank you.

(If this is a repeat, I apologize. My password seems to be a problem, and I posted fifteen minutes ago or so, and I don't see my letter here yet.)

Re: Chris and Georgie and C Meier and the others who understood the truth of my owning up to the letter
being mine, and for their compassion when I told, again, the truth that the letter had been
edited to make me look like a vicious beast, thank you very much.

And Georgie: I got your wonderful note and tried to respond but the email wouldn't go through!
I had given you thanks and appreciation for your direct email to me and it most certainly made
me feel much better.

To the people who said things like I have a problem with anger or pain or other issues and was
using "Anabel" as a dartboard, PPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHBBBBBBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
to you all. That is most definitely not the case, and you all seemed to have ignored what I wrote that the
AnnieIdiots DID leave in the letter: that she does not let two minutes go b y without a nasty, vicious comment
about my husband, or her other relatives. I do not hate her; I feel sorry for her.(The following was
not in my original letter, but it matters so here it is): She has self-esteem issues of epic proportion
and is totally deluded about why she is such a bitch: she is a lesbian but would rather step in front of a
speeding train than admit to it (which is, I know, her right) but Holy Hannah on a Jumped Up Jesus Mobile!! Being
ashamed of who you are doesn't give you the right to lash out at your own brother ALL THE TIME! I
am (well, was) exhausted by her continual ferally nasty, mean comments to and about my husband. Like this
one, which she said a few years ago, to my husband: "Gosh, there was a truck crashed downtown today
but I didn't want to tell you because it was a Little Debbie's truck and with your being so fat, I thought you'd kill yourself if you didn't get your snack cakes for the day!"

Yeah. I thought about it. I thought about telling her "Gee, we saw that an Eli Lilly truck had crashed and were
terrified that you wouldn't get your THORAZINE!!!" I didn't say a word, nor did I react in any way to her vicious
comments. The fact that we played tennis for two hours, five days a week tells you what kind of shape we were in, but that didn't stop her from trying to get that dig in.

Another bemusing and confusing anecdote: Before the hubs stroke, we were invited to a surprise party for his cousin, and MIL gave us the time and directions
to the cousin's home. Well, the time she gave us was HALF AN HOUR AFTER the party was supposed to start, and the directions led us to a closed Buick dealership. When we finally arrived at the party, the surprise part was
blown, but I made an apology to the birthday girl, and laughed about ending up at the closed car store.

MIL took this unbelievable inocuous comment as an attack on her, retreated to the kitchen and left without
a word to us an hour later. When I called her that night to see if she was all right, she snapped "What do you want?
Wasn't it enough that you humiliated me today??" I was, stupidly, stunned. (I shoulda known better, that she would be all ready with an idiotic response to a person calling and asking if she was all right.) I told her that I was sorry she felt that I'd made her feel bad, and that certainly wasn't my intent, she's my MIL and I love her, and so on, but she huffed and puffed, so I handed the phone to my husband and told him, "You deal with this. She's off her meds again, I think." He repeated to her what I had said, but she slammed down the phone. (Well, as best one can with a hand held phone.)

Add these nasty verbal barrages to about a thousand others, and one can understand why I don't want to
be around her. And, right now, I truly have no idea what spurred me to write the original letter because
I am exhausted just thinking about her and her troubled self. I am done with her.

To all who saw past the Annie's unbelievable butchery of my letter to make it seem as if I was the one
with mental health problems, thank you.

Lise:
I just spent 1/2 an hour writing a wonderful scree to you about how grateful I am for your (and others) understanding and support, not to mention a series of vignettes about our (K's and my) experiences at the hospital and then rehab, and this FERDAMT thingie ate it!! I was going to put in the numbers and skadoosh, ALL gone.

No turkey. No turkey sandwiches. No turkey gravy. No gallons of turkey soup. The Bumpusses came and had their hounds eat my words.

Whimper.

But thanks anyway, and I'll try to recreate it and post on Delphi later.

Safe home, all!

Re: Samantha Kimmel

Glad to see you're back. See you at Delphi!

P.S.: To avoid aggravations described in post #69... Before you click on "post message":
a) click into message box
b) CTRL+A
c) CTRL+C

Don't forget to click into the message box, otherwise, you'll select & save the entire web page. This insures not everything is lost if something happens. I learned the hard way.

If by any chance, you make a mistake and erase your post inside the comment box... CTRL+Z.

Re: Lise Brouillette
Thanks, Lise! Not that I understood one word of your kind advice.... have I mentioned that I am a computer
MORON?
Control Z?? "Zaphod Beeblebrox, he's just this guy, ya know?"
Usually I will CTRL C if I've written more than a few lines (Yeah, right, Kimmel!! I am a yammerer from way back; no, really, Google me. Used to write for the LA Times a lot, then the Daily News. They liked my yammering.) but last night I was having a little happy time having had a minor victory over, well, no important, and I have no idea what keys I hit, but the words went bye bye.
I shall try your suggestions, if I can remember them!
Thanks so much.