Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1-
That sure is a different turn from having sex and rolling over snoring... you rolled over first, and then over her!

Joking aside, I would suggest you get some printed medical facts from a reliable source about the possible sleep-walking side-effect of the medication you're taking. But, frankly, none of this would have happened in the first place if you hadn't made the mistake of letting her get that comfortable in your home. That was the real mistake and, because of that, the love of your life may feel she has no proof that there will be no repeat. The STD makes it worse of course.

This may not be fixable. Sorry.

LW2-
If your husband is so much the Energizer Bunny, how about he takes over some chores so you can get more rest? Your drive hasn't disappeared, it's just being beaten into the ground by overwork.

LW3-
No, not all men are willing to cede driving responsibilities. For too many of them the gas pedal is an extension to their penis and driving the equivalent of masturbating with the ball of the foot. The ex LOML was like that - I couldn't even drive my own van unless I was alone in it. Man, I tell you...

lw1- More than likely your gf does not believe you were sleep walking. She probably believes you purposely cheated on her, but because of the std you felt you had to come forward about your affair and you are using the sleep medication as an excuse/ lie. Ask her to come with you to a doctor's appointment because you want the doctor to explain the effects of the medication to her. Hearing it from a doctor would be a lot more believable. This does not mean your gf would be willing to take you back; afterall, you waited until you knew about a std to tell her and this in itself would sound suspicious to any girl. There is a good chance she'll still believe your story is a lie.

On another note, a hernia does not lower a man's sex drive. It may have been so painful he was shying away from having sex, but that would have been from the pain of sex, not the fact his sex drive was low. More than likely, he wanted to have lots of sex all along, but was simply lying about his lack of interest because he did not want to admit he was in pain from a hernia. Wouldn't that have ticked you off more than him having a low sex drive? Plus some people tend to hide their pain, especially men.

Now he no longer has pain to hinder him and he still has the same high sex drive he has always possessed (and was lying about up until now), so he expects you to still have the same high sex drive too. As Lise said, get the energizer bunny to help out around the house so you can rest and have the energy to perform. Your story is a good warning for people who put off medical treatment out of fear when it is effecting their lives & marriage.

I'm really pretty disturbed at LW1's letter. If he took a sleep aid before the ex came over, and then had a beer while they were chatting...how did they get from chatting over a beer to having sex? I'm picturing the two sitting on the couch or maybe at the kitchen table with beers, talking about the weather. If he fell asleep in the middle of their conversation, then why didn't the ex just leave? Instead she decided to--what? Undress him and start putting the moves on? This is just creepy and quite frankly, if indeed the LW's memory is "I took a sleep aid, we were sitting there chatting over a beer, then suddenly I was having sex" I would suggest he give the ex the third degree about his behavior and why she thought he was capable of sex at that point. If he doesn't get a satisfactory answer it might be time to call the cops.

I mean, let's switch the genders for a second: "I'm a woman dating a man, and my ex-boyfriend came over. I'd taken a sleep aid before we came over, but we chatted over beer and I fell asleep. I woke up to find I was having sex with the guy." I think we would all be very suspicious about whether she was capable of consent and indeed at the motives of the ex. I think it stands to reason that LW1 should be equally suspicious. Especially since the woman gave him an STD. Yikes.

Now...if it DIDN'T happen that way, if there was indeed some flirting going on or whatever where the ex could have reasonably construed that you were DTF before the Ambien kicked in, then you need to own that. "I told the ex that I took a sleeping pill before she came over, and just can't keep my eyes open anymore. She said she was tired too so I told her to take the other side of the bed..." I don't know. The crux of the matter is what you were doing before you fell asleep. You may or may not have been "sleep-sexing" due to the medication, but the fact of the matter is that there was another person in the room who WAS NOT under the influence and should have recognized that your behavior was inappropriate and that you weren't yourself. You need to get to the bottom of that.

*wild applause for Lise* No kidding. If a woman says she is too tired for sex and her husband is NOT too tired this means he needs to get off his ass more around the house. Or get a job period (I have known more than a few recently retired men who were suddenly interested in sex at least once a day, while their wives were still working full time jobs and expected to continue all their household duties. Chuck you, Farley indeed...).

Tell your horny husband to jerk off. End of story.

OMG, LW!, this is the worst advice the Annies have ever given. EVER! Excuse me, but if you fall asleep and wake up and someone is having sex with you, you have NOT cheated or had "oops" sex, you have been RAPED!!!! The Annies should give their heads a shake and ask themselves whether they would have responded the same way if it had been a woman waking up with a man having sex with her, or a person of either gender waking up with a same-sex ex having sex with them. Worse yet, the woman gave him gonorhea--this was sexual assault! In fact, I wonder if she did it intentionally. Gawd! Can you imagine a woman in the same situation and the Annies advising her--not to call a rape-crisis centre--but to send her boyfriend flowers and beg him to believe that she didn't "cheat" on him intentionally? And to let her take the blame that it was her fault it happened because she let a guy "get too comfortable" in her house. Barf, and double barf. That advice just stinks.

And then in LW2, OMG, will you STOP equating menopause with the death of a woman's sex drive? Lots of women go through menopause and STILL crave, want and desire sex. Get over it, Annies!!!

LW1--"I woke up having sex with her..." Sorry gramps but one can't rape the willing. At 60 years old, I find it hard (pun intended) to believe you could get it up easily with all of your faculties about you much less when hopped up on sleep aids. Moreover, what sort of "girlfriend" shows up to repay a loan with beer in tow? She sounds like a two bit tramp to me and the little STD she left behind merely substantiates my theory. I'm not buying what you're selling; stop playing the hapless victim. You sound like a dirty old coot who got caught with his pants down...literally. Here's what you do. Forget about trying to woo back your girlfriend. Grow up and stop making excuses for YOUR bad decisions! You're not a carefree frat boy living it up in the swinging sixties anymore. On second thought, that's not true considering you're in your sixties for crying out loud. Own your own bullshit. If you want an honest relationship with a respectable lady then you need to take a good long look in the mirror and also at the company you keep and decide what's really important. Then, act accordingly.

LW2--I'll leave this one for Ben to answer.

LW3--No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you into the car of a reckless, maniac driver. If one of these clods refuses to cede driving responsibilities to a safe driver then take a cab or drive yourself (and your children) separately in your own car.

#7 Jane wins the today's prize by being the first to bring the 'M' word into the conversation. And a big 'clap, clap, clap' to #1 Lise re: LW2. I felt the same way after we had children (multiple birth). I went back to work and simply felt shredded by the end of the day. I don't know how I would've survived without my considerate husband's help.

Re LW#1---------You took medication, fell asleep while your ex-girlfriend was there drinking beer with you, and woke up to find you were having sex. You never planned it, it just happened as a result of your meds. YEAH, RIGHT!!!!
And to top it all off, the slut gave you VD from just that one time (or so you say) and so you had to confess. My sympathy for you just overflows!!!!! I think if I ever got VD as the result of my spouse cheating on me and giving it to me, he might not have any appendage left with which to pass it on to anyone else.
-----------
Re LW#2-------so, it boils down to: At one point you wanted lots of sex, husband didn't-------so your sex life was determined by what your husband wanted.
Now things have reversed-------------you no longer want lots of sex, husband does-------so your sex life is determined by what your husband wants.
When do you get YOUR turn? Or is it always just HIS needs or lack of them?
I'm guessing part of your lack of drive IS because you do the bulk of stuff at home with little or no help, but even if he does help out-------how come he gets to determine the amount of sex and you don't count? Let him learn to handle his needs in the same way you had to handle yours when HE didn't want it. I've never been a fan of one person having to have sex that he/she doesn't want to make the other person happy. Can't think of anything worse than 'submitting' when you don't want it. Once in awhile, yes------on a regular basis, no. (Of course, men have the advantage there-------if they don't want it, they are incapable of having it. I think if two people are that different in their needs, they are married to the wrong person.

LW1 - Jane, thank you for saying what I was thinking.

The definition of rape is when someone has sex with you without your consent. Someone cannot give consent if he is unconscious and under the influence.

The standard DOES go both ways here. There IS such a thing as male rape with a female perpetrator. It's not common, but it does happen.

LW1, do a Google search on James Landrith. He's very vocal about his experience and reading about it may validate yours.

LW2 - You and your husband need to have a very open, frank discussion about each other's needs. If he wants you to have more energy, he should take the kids and let you rest, get out of the house, whatever it would take to re-engergize yourself.

Also, as DH and I have learned, sometimes you have to schedule date nights if you get my drift. Are you most charged on the weekends? Then set aside Saturday nights for fun.

38 is not that old. I know it probably feels that way and believe me I understand. At that age I'd already had a hysterectomy and I was running after a son the same age who has autism, on top of working full time and juggling a rough relationship with a teenage daughter. But it really isn't that old! If your husband truly is as wonderful as you say then he'll be willing to work something out with you, just like you said.

At the same time I understand why you wrote in and what you're venting about... and you are right. People should check into medical issues and not put them off for months and years. What ails one spouse will ail the other at some level. Do not ask me how I know this.

LW3 - Bravo! Been there and done that in this department too. I finally had to start asking DH if he could live with something happening to our son because he was angry and "punished" someone driving the way he didn't like by tailgating them or some other aggressive behavior. It sunk in after a few times and he's much more careful now - at least when we're all in the car together. Can't vouch for when he's driving by himself :-\

Something about LW1 doesn't sit right with me. He took a sleep aid and drank beer with his ex? He doesn't deny drinking any and mentions that she came over with beer. Really? She came over to repay a debt with beer? Does he think everyone just fell off the turnip truck? He had his ex over, drank some beer, and banged her. Not the first person to do something like this, but when she gave him a VD and he didn't want to fess up he made up some idiotic story to avoid responsibility. Now I could be completely wrong and if it really did go down as he says I deeply apologize and suggest he show his current gf the bottle of sleep aids he took along with a printout of the side effects. He shouldn't have started with the alcohol anyway; he should have settled the debt and shown her the door. By his own admission they only dated briefly and he doesn't claim to be good friends with her. Something just stinks here.

LW1 - You are so full of crap. That's right up there with, "The dog ate my homework".
You stepped out on your GF and got the clap. Fess up and move on.



LW2 - Discuss it with your husband. Come to some terms and comprises until things level out. Tell him it's okay to masturbate in the shower.

lW3 - That's nice.

How many women have fallen in love with a married man (who has pursued them relentlessly) only to see him return to his wife and family because they "need him"? Note: the married man in question showed up with his possessions and asked to move in. I took the man to hockey games, theatre shows, countless dinners and bought him an expensive bed and Christmas gift. I introduced said man to my family omitting his (separated ) status....I did not want them to prejudge him....and they accepted him to their credit. So, how do I recover from his betrayal of my trust, my love and the caring I extended to him?

Re: Kristin Lewis
Sorry for your loss, I know it hurts. Having said that, DO NOT get involved with a married man, separated or not. Don't get involved with one fresh out of a divorce. People at this stage have not settled their emotional business and this is often what happens. My hb dated a number of women while "separated" from his first wife and guess what? He always went back to his wife. They'd been divorced several years when we met and their business was finished or I wouldn't have given him the time of day. So try not to think of this as a betrayal of your trust, but rather someone that may not have meant harm but should really not have been dating. He probably pursued you because he was emotionally needy, probably physically too. Chalk it up to experience and move on. Good luck.

LW 1 - So ex shows up with beer, you didn't say whether you had any to drink, if you had, on top of a sleep aid, that's stupid right there. Strike 1. Then you go on to say that you fell asleep, so how long were you asleep? One, two or 3 hours? Even if it was 3 hours, ex is still there, ummm. Why? Strike 2. She should have just dropped off the money she owed you, then left. So, when you woke up, you were having sex with her and you just didn't know how you were going to tell GF about this. Probably if you hadn't caught the Big G, you wouldn't haven't bothered to tell her. Strike 3. Well, in my opinion, your story stinks and so do you. And paybacks are a b*tch !!

Happy New Year Everyone !! It's 9:15 PM here in Germany, fireworks have been going off all eve, all over town. They go on sale on the 28th and that's what you hear until Jan. 2nd and then some. Spending a quiet eve in front of the computer, DH went to bed, can't stand the excitement. LOL !! And 18 yr. old son, out celebrating.

So, here's to a Happy, Healthy New Year and if you had a not so nice healthy year, here's to a Healthier New Year.

Guten Rutsch ( a good slide into the new year).

Re: Kristin Lewis
Just the fact that a married man would pursue another woman relentlessly before he's actually free of his wife shows what a rotten skunk he really is. You fell for him, now you're heart-broken and you hurt like hell. It sucks. The only thing I can suggest because it works is (if you can stand to do it), doll yourself up, walk into a pharmacy to get yourself some condoms and go get yourself laid. It will help emotionally detach you. Been there, done that - it DOES work.

As for the rest, the stinky jerk went back his wife, heh? Let her have him, and you should feel sorry for her. She'll spend the rest of her life wondering when's the next time he'll pull the same stunt and I can hardly blame her.

@Kim
No, he "didn't mean any harm" in the sense that he didn't go out to purposely break a woman's heart, but just the fact that he would aggressively chase another woman while he knew damn well he hadn't moved on yet, indicates the cavalier attitude he has towards someone else's feelings. What a selfish bastard. Yrrch.

Re: Gwen

A slide it will be indeed if I go out tonight - it's been freeze-raining for hours and the sidewalks are pure ice. I don't even want to THINK of the roads - frozen roads and frosted drivers, yeeesh.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I agree, he was a selfish prick. The fact is he probably had little intention of actually divorcing his wife, and it also sound like she spent some money on him so he probably took advantage of that-double selfish prick. I'm just offering a perspective for Kristin to help let go of her anger. Either way it's a painful learning experience.

I thought Lise was referring to Kim's husband at first.

Re: capiscan
I assumed she meant the man in the letter because I did not provide any details of my husbands dealings except to say that he'd dated people while separated. I made no mention of him "relentlessly pursuing" anyone and also made no mention of whatever arrangement he may had had with his ex wife, with whom we are both on very friendly terms, so it did not seem appropriate that anyone would address it. Was my hb perfect? Heavens so, and neither was his ex wife, but sometimes life happens (my ex hb and I were not perfect either). This is why I personally have never been willing to date "separated" people. I do not necessarily think they all have malicious intent, but the same could be said of people that date when they are fresh out of relationships and know darned well they haven't moved on, but that happens all the time, thus the term "rebound". Anyone that wishes to protect themselves should really look for people that have obviously moved on and are ready to start fresh with you.

To LW1 - if your letter is accurate as written, it may be that you "sleepwalked" into the act of sex. But there is another possible explanation.

If a woman went to sleep in a man's home, then woke up to find herself "having sex" with him, it would be a clear case of rape. She would have nothing to apologize for, right? She would be the victim! The man would be the rapist, who initiated sex when she was asleep!

If you were raped (sexually molested in your sleep) by your ex girlfriend, you have nothing to apologize for. That situation would make her a rapist and you the victim.

I knew a man this happened to once. He was in his twenties at the time, and had fallen asleep in the home of an older man. He came to a therapy session saying he was ashamed and embarrassed about having "had sex" with the man. It later came out that he had fallen asleep in the man's house, and awakened to find the other man performing oral sex on him.

The truth was that the man who initiated sex with him, knowing he was unconscious, was a sexual predator. If something like this is what happened to you, your ex was behaving as a sexual predator. She's the rapist! You're the victim, fellow! If that is the case, you need to explain exactly what happened, with out all the euphemisms that make you look like the guilty one, to your girlfriend.

Whoa ladies. Pleaes. Rape? This may be my last post here but I just have to ask -have any of you been raped? My sister's MIL was raped in front of her apartment one night coming home from work in the late "70's. It involved a broken front tooth and nose, 3 broken ribs and the handle of a carpenter's hammer. This guy was not raped. Please take a deep breath and stop for a minute.

Good lord and happy new year.

@Rick

I couldn't agree with you more!

@ Everyone!!!!

HAPPY & HEALTHY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL!!!

Ditto what Rick and Chris said - totally! There are enough real victims in the world without people inventing victim situations. "If it was a woman...." well, it wasn't. And LW1 doesn't sound sorry he had sex so much as he's sorry he has VD. The Annies must have missed that part. Flowers and apologies indeed!
On to 2012. Hope it will be a better year for EVERYone!

Re: Chris - HNY and stay sane :-)

Re: sarah morrow
I agree with you on the example you gave, or in the case of a penetration, whether it be in the case of a man on a man or a man on a woman.

But (forgive me for the crudity), unless she tied a rope at the bottom of his argument, I fail to see how he was raped into an erection. Sleepwalking, perhaps (well... he wasn't walking!), but even then, a proportion of responsibility is fully his here. What was he doing drinking beer after he took a sleeping aid? And letting that woman getting all comfortable? And what was she doing showing up with beer over the repayment of a debt in the first place? Comfortable, schmonfortable, she sure was at ease even before she passed the door. Methinks this is not the first time this happens, only it's the first tiem when he got the clap out of it, the shit hit the fan and now he's stuck.

At first I tended to give him the benefit of the doubt, but after reading the other posters I tend to lean towards what Chris, Rick, Jennylee and Kim said.

"Whoa ladies. Pleaes. Rape? This may be my last post here but I just have to ask -have any of you been raped?"

Yes - as a matter of fact, Rick, I was raped. It happened 15 years ago and he was someone with whom I'd fallen in love - hard. I thought I could trust him. Everyone including me thought he was "the one."

When he raped me, my mind screamed "What are you doing?! Get off me!" but my mouth and body wouldn't move, because I was in such shock over what he was doing to me. I remember going very far away somewhere in my mind until it was over, then lying on my side and thinking Oh my God, what happened? over and over.

He claimed afterward "It slipped in." Yeah, and I have a bridge to sell you somewhere in the Sahara.

Because he had earned my trust, and because I dissociated during the rape, he never had to leave a bruise on my body. What that scum did to my spirit and my psyche, however, was devastating. I had already been married so I wasn't a virgin anymore, but the day he raped me, he truly ripped away my innocence and I changed forever.

I struggled to come to terms with the rape for several years and even stopped talking about it because people like you and Chris told me I must have asked for it due to my situation not fitting THEIR definition of what they thought rape was (and by the way, if you use your sister's MIL as the bar for whether or not rape is rape, then you're outdated even by the FBI's standards). My feeling silenced from that stigmatizing also meant I never reported it - after all, if the few people I told at all back then didn't believe me, why would the police? It has taken a lot of intensive work to get to where I can talk about it without shaking and crying anymore.

If you still want to apply your outdated victim-blaming to my situation, then I say go rot. I don't let people like you define my reality for me anymore.

I hope none of you BTL who have ever had to suffer a rape or go through being re-traumatized through secondary wounding because your situation doesn't fit in someone else's box ever have to find out what that's like. That doesn't even factor in the self-doubting, the self-blaming, beating yourself up wondering how you could have stopped it every day thereafter, etc. To say it's a living hell is an understatement.

Rape is the only crime where we still consistently blame the victim. It is also the most underreported crime. That's not exactly a coincidence.

Lise - A man can be stimulated into an erection when he is unconscious. Ask anyone who's wanted to get their guy frisky in the middle of the night. Also, a man has an erection several times per night by nature... I thought that was pretty common knowledge but I guess I was wrong.

PS, I am very sorry for what happened to you. Truly. And I have been attacked with the attacker intending to rape me, but it didn't happen the way he planned. That's another story. But Rick's point is not to denigrate your experience but to make the point that LW1 was not raped. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Rape is always ugly whether it leaves physical bruises or not, and involves force. The LW1 was actually into it - until he woke up and later discovered he had VD. That seems to be the part that bothers him the most. He's a 60 year old man and his girlfriend has told him to go jump. Trying to say he was raped, as some posters have, does nothing but trivialize the ugliness of rape.
Again, best of luck to you ...
and Happy New Year to everyone.

Re: PS

I'm sorry you went through that... and I would never say that a man cannot be raped, but I don't think this one was. I didn't know a man could be stimulated while unconscious although I did know most of them get a hard on while asleep. But was he on top or was she?

Lise and Maggie - Thank you for your supportive and kind words. I hope that by sharing my experience here I can help continue to break down the stereotypes about rape. Again it's the one crime where the blame falls on the victim... and then one wonders why only 2% of victims come forward, why only 2% of those cases that even make it to trial get a conviction, and why even fewer result in a substantial jail sentence.

Oh and then we wonder why, when someone's identified as a perpetrator, so many others come forward and say "He/she did it to me too." Right. Maybe if the jackhole was put in prison for a very, very long time in the first place, and maybe if more victims were encouraged and supported in the process, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

That said, I still disagree with both of you and others BTL about what you're drawing from this.

Let's look at the scenario again, line by line:

"An ex-girlfriend I briefly dated years ago stopped by my house to repay some money I loaned her. She brought some beer, and we chatted."

So far, Maggie, I don't see where he was "into it." He was talking to his ex-girlfriend while having a beer. That's totally innocuous.

If it had been the ex-girlfriend that invited HIM over and was chatting with him while having a beer, would she be to blame after how things ended?

"Unfortunately, I had taken a sleep aid shortly before she showed up, and I fell asleep."

He's right in that it was unfortunate because of what ensued, but so far, I still don't see where he did anything wrong or led his ex-girlfriend into thinking it was playtime. I mean, ooooh, wow, a 60 year old who took a sleeping pill after drinking beer konked out, what a come on! Last I checked the only thing that should initiate is the guest going home.

Again, where was he "into it" here? He fell asleep while talking to her after mixing his medication with alcohol is what it sounds like here - not good judgement, but not exactly grounds to accuse him of something he didn't willingly do! And again, if the genders were reversed, would you be reading the same things between the lines?

"I woke up having sex with her."

It's not often I agree with Sarah Morrow, but in this case, I do, and that's because, as a rape victim, and as someone who volunteers helping others who have been sexually abused/assaulted, I can attest that MANY victims call rape "having sex." They do so because they're too horrified, ashamed, or in denial about what happened...

... and male victims in particular are vulnerable to this because they've been taught that as a man, they should be able to control the outcome of whatever situation they're in. Ergo, to lose control is to call their masculinity into question. Of course, this is gender stereotyping and BS at its best, but you'd better believe that's what runs through a guy's mind when he's being attacked.

Also, do not assume that because he said he woke up "having sex" with his ex-girlfriend that this somehow means he was able to climb on top of her. If he was unconscious, then duh, she straddled him, or as Sarah mentioned, he could have been sleepwalking under the influence of the medication, which still means he was unconscious and therefore did not give his full consent because he had no idea what was going on.

Regardless, that doesn't negate what happened!

"It took a few moments to get my senses back, but then I told her to leave."

... and THIS is where he came out of being disoriented from being under the influence of prescription medication combined with alcohol, told her to get the hell off him, and get out. He was probably then overwhelmed with guilt and shame, and trying to figure out what to do.

Let's reverse the genders once more, shall we? If a woman told you that this happened to her and it was a man who did it (or even another woman), at this point you would be thinking holy cow, she was raped, wouldn't you?

So then why is it different if he's a man? Someone still took advantage of him while he was knocked out no matter how you slice it. The ex was wrong, it is not his fault... the fact that she gave him gonorrhea means she's an unconscionable b****, but then again that was my opinion of her already when she sexually assaulted him.

Again, I beg the question - where does it possibly sound like he had given his consent for his ex to do this to him (and it sounds like she's an ex for a reason if you ask me), or that he initiated anything? Because I'm either seriously missing the boat, or you guys have read a hell of a lot into the situation that, from what I can tell, is not there.

If he had taken a sleep aid, that means he was under the influence. Combined with him being unconscious and either buzzed or drunk along with the meds, then by LAW, and NOT someone's subjective definition, he was raped, because he was *incapable of giving consent.* Period.

Oh and you can probably guess that the Annies' calling all this "oops sex" has me a little pissed too. That's about as "winning" (to borrow from Charlie Sheen) as the therapist who tried to tell me my rape was a "poorly planned seduction." That's the kind of crap that makes me want to take such folks, put them on an island far away... and then, I don't know, set it on fire or something. Just saying.

It seems that the majority of people commenting on here feel that LW#1 fell asleep and then woke up to having sex with the ex-girlfriend. If he was taking something along the lines of Ambian than it could have been more like the drugs kicked in and he entered a sort of dissociative state. During such a time he could have been in a very suggestible mind frame and would have agreed to almost anything or he could have confused the situation and believed that he was still involved with the ex.
I have a friend who takes Ambian and while I was visiting her she would wake up at about 0100 almost every night, come out to the kitchen, fix a snack and we would have a full on conversation. She NEVER remembered it the next morning, unless something happened to "wake" her up like the night that the cat knocked a couple of pans off the counter. She became aware of her surroundings and couldn't for the life of her figure out why she was in the kitchen with a glass of juice in hand, when the last thing she remembered was laying down in her bed.
Many drugs out there can leave a person in a very suggestive state while letting them function in a fairly normal manner.

That's one of the reasons that Rohypnal is so popular as a rape drug. And yes, despite some idiots saying anything to the contrary, being drugged and then someone having sex with you while in that altered state IS rape!

take 2

i'm with those who are willing to give the first lw the benefit of the doubt. the only reason a rapist needs to inflict bruises and broken teeth and bones on his victim is if the victim resists. if a drug or alcohol has already rendered the victim unconscious, then violence isn't necessary to achieve the goal of gratification. whether he was 'on top or on bottom' is irrelevant. if she liked the feel of a man's body on top of her, if she was strong enough, she could have pulled him on top of her. i can't imagine doing what is necessary to have sex with an inert body on top of me to be enjoyable, but different strokes...if that happened to my husband or boyfriend, i would want to find out 'for sure' if such a thing was possible. i'd go with him to his doctor to find out. that is, if the relationship were good up until this happened. if it wasn't, then this provides her with a way out.
the reason i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt is the warnings some of those sleep aids list. as a sleepwalker, without any chemical help, who on occasion has tried to leave the house with car keys in hand, i'm willing to accept the possibility that one can have unintended sex under the influence.

The man driving thing! I found a male friend that I enjoyed going to the symphony with-----stirctly friends. He is in his early 80s, and I alot younger. His driving is terrible! He does not see stop signs and I wonder what he thinks red lights are for-------not for stoppng him! He says he does not see them. And, he says he knows his reflex time has slowed down. Well, I finally told him I enjoyed the concerts with him, but I'd prefer to drive. And, I told him why. He said that was fine with him, but it wasn't. I soon found he was unavaillable to go with me.
Now I see him volunteering to drive when our seniors group goes places, and I shudder at the thought. Someday, he is going to run a light and someone is going to be hurt. I have mentioned it to the lady that does the planning, but, to no avail. He is one of the few who offers to drive, so, that is that.

OMG Melinda, that is scary. I hope that something other than an accident with fatalities or serious injuries comes along to make him re-think his attitude behind the wheel, and the sooner the better!

Re: PS

Definitely things are possible as you are laying them out - no pun intended.

The only thing I might say is that, if the roles were reversed, I would definitely tell the woman she was EXTREMELY FOOLISH, to the point of putting herself in harm's way, to mix sleeping aids and alcohol, especially if the medication was Ambien or the like, and not some over-the-counter thing. Even with non-prescription stuff, people mixing that with booze are not only playing with their safety, but with their lives. People his age ought to know better. Not smart.

And no, just chatting and accepting a beer does not constitute a come-on... but for the ex to show up with beer late at night (since he had already taken his sleeping aid), and then not only let her through the door but sit down with her AND drink the beer... Well, I can think of a number of people, men and women both, who would see this as an encouragement go go further. Again, extremely foolish to say the least.

No, it doesn't negate what (may have) happened. But someone who leaves a jewellery store with the door visibly unlocked in th middle of the night can expect a robbery, even if the thief is still a thief.

@Melinda
Please, please, please. RAT HIM OUT and sic the cops on him before he kills someone.

Re: limniade For what it's worth, certain sleep aids (Ambien in particular) can cause a person to become unconsciously amorous. I've seen it happen, and the person has little to no recollection of it the next day. I myself have become quite loopy and unaware of what I'm doing under the effects of it, which is why I stopped taking it. His judgement may have already been impaired when she arrived. And let's be honest, she clearly had a mind to hook up with him from the get go. I'm inclined to take his side on this one.

"The only thing I might say is that, if the roles were reversed, I would definitely tell the woman she was EXTREMELY FOOLISH, to the point of putting herself in harm's way, to mix sleeping aids and alcohol, especially if the medication was Ambien or the like, and not some over-the-counter thing. Even with non-prescription stuff, people mixing that with booze are not only playing with their safety, but with their lives. People his age ought to know better. Not smart."

... and that, Lise, is what we call victim blaming... and with all due respect, you are absolutely wrong to go there.

Rape is never, never, never ever, the victim's fault, and nobody ever, EVER EVER, has the right to criticize what the victim may or may not have been doing or their judgments leading up to the event. Believe me, and I think I already reiterated this, someone who has been assaulted does that enough on their own, and has a hard enough time speaking up about what happened, without someone coming down on them for whatever they may or may not have done or their fearing that this is what they will get in return for being brave enough to speak out...

That fear, as you have evidenced with your own words, is 100% justified. Who the hell are you - who the hell is anyone for that matter - to play judge and jury in those situations, given you weren't even there when it happened?

The rapist is the one who chooses to rape, irrespective of what the victim's choices may be. The ex-girlfriend could have chosen to go home - how about that? Or maybe woke him up and asked if he wanted sex in an attempt to gain consent the right way, and if he said NO, which he, guaranteed, would have, then she could have wished him well, and again, gone home!

In other words, she could have respected him and the fact that he moved on with someone else - wow, what a concept!

If it all depended on the victim as to whether or not rape ever happened then we wouldn't have tragic stories about 9 month old babies needing reconstructive surgery and 90 year old women in granny nighties spending what's left of their lives being unable to sleep at night because some evil sociopath thought it okay to dehumanize and objectify another person for power and control in the most vulnerable and horrifying ways possible. We could just blame those in miniskirts and skimpy tops, say they all asked for it, and we'd live happily ever after.

Chutzpah!

Re: PS

I am merely stating facts, and these are the kinds of facts that would be highly relevant in a hearing to determine whether there was consent. We're not talking about sexy attire or the past of the victim here.

And speaking of facts, one thing has just come to my mind, which hasn't been mentioned before: in light of what Jon just said about a person becoming "unconsciously amorous' under the influence of Ambien, it is entirely possible that the woman had NO IDEA the man who was having sex with her was not even aware of it.

Again, not to lay the blame on anyone, but I'm sure he could tell she had ulterior motives when she showed up late at night with a case of beer. I really don't think this is a case of rape because,
1. She may not have been aware he didn't even know what he was doing;
2. He was not entirely blameless and his attitutude may have been construed as acceptance, even before the combined effects of alcohol plus medication starting showing. He did, consciously, put himself in a position where something could happen at a time when he knew perfectly well what he was doing.

No real rape is ever, ever, ever the victim's fault, just like the owner of the jewellery store doesn't DESERVE to get robbed just because he has a nice window, you're right about that.

I just don't think this is a case of rape here. The woman got there exhibiting clear signals that she wanted to hook up, he sits down with her chatting and drinking beer (which is exactly what he would be doing if he was interested), the two of them end up in bed. Seems like a pretty natural succession of events to me. Does she even know he's seeing someone? How is she supposed to know, as he's pushing hard into her, that he's not consenting and that she's a rapist ? PS, I know you were raped and that something like this would resonate with you of course, but come on now, she's not a mind-reader. Even if it IS possible that he didn't know what he was doing, she had no way of knowing that. Considering his actions from her point of view, no jury would convict her.

Do keep in mind that, although the rape of a man is truly possible, the reason it is infrequent is because there are physical differences differences between men and women - all you have to do to rape a woman is physically overpower her. Whereas, like I said in my original post, unless you tie a cord at the bottom of his argument, you can't rape a man who remains limp unless you force penetration from the back door. She wasn't doing any of that.

Not to mention that, even if a rapist is always a rapist no matter what - I STILL wouldn't go jogging wearing nothing but a thong bikini in the middle of the night in Central Park, New York.

It's well documented that some people, while taking Ambien, take actions in their sleep -- buying things online, driving to the store & back, etc. -- and don't know what they've done until the packages arrive on the porch, or they get the photo-ticket in the mail. That being said, I'd wonder about this guy's tale. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt since it's possible, but I'd wonder.

Wow, some of the posters here are real haters (you know who you are). LW1 was foolish and soft-spined, but his story sounds plausible. I think he should forget about his GF and take a lesson about letting trashy skanks into his house.

LW2
Holy swings and roundabouts! You say you are sure to work this out with your husband, as neither of you is maladroit in marital compromise. I'd say this is the time to get him picking up some of the slack in family chores, so you are less exhausted and can recover your prior interest in love-making. Oh – and see your doctor to be sure it is simply the strains of having a busy life. You wouldn't want to waste the opportunities that lie in store.
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Anyone who has been around someone who is sleep walking or drugged up will know you can tell they are so. Why do so many people need to depend this rapist by explaining away her actions.."oh she must not have know, she can't have intended it..women don't do that sort of thing"

This guy may or may not have shared a beer (he doesn't specify that he drank just that alcohol was in the house) with someone he trusted. God forbid any of us ever have a drink in the presence of friends, partners or exes because then it must surely be our fault if they rape us! Er no, I don't think so.

"He did, consciously, put himself in a position where something could happen at a time when he knew perfectly well what he was doing." Again, how is inviting a trusted person into your home equal to knowing and deserving rape? Do you automatically keep yourself on guard when people you know are in your home? Do you never let yourself fall asleep around them because that MUST be an invitation for sex?

"Do keep in mind that, although the rape of a man is truly possible, the reason it is infrequent is because there are physical differences differences between men and women" - I think you'll find there are many ways to rape a man, as many as there are women. The reason we believe male rape is infrequent is because the crime stats are so low through under-reporting. There is no evidence that it isn't as often as women, or more so, because you just can't get the figures. Men, unsurprisingly given the way these comments have gone, are afraid to speak out whether their rapist is a man or a woman.

And for those that need educating..a woman can be stimulated to orgasm against her will just as a man can be forced into an erection and orgasm. It's all nerve endings and they don't listen to your mind when they are being stimulated.