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Gay Man Balking
Dear Annie: I have loved a gay man all my life, and I am now 64, so I know a little something about the problem.
I work in an office where a 35-year-old man is dating a female co-worker who is 50. I believe they both care for each other, but he is concealing his sexual orientation. I happen to know he has a boyfriend in another city.
I have not mentioned this to anyone not only because it could hurt his position in our conservative company, but also because it's not my business. However, I've begun to wonder whether I ought to say something to his girlfriend. She is going through hell. He's nice to her and takes her out to lunch often, and she reports their doings with stars in her eyes. Then they will fight, and she avoids him while he waits to get back in her good graces.
She doesn't understand what's going on, and she's miserable. I don't think he's going to tell her the truth, and at this point, she would be furious if she knew he has been leading her on. What would you suggest? Should I butt in to save her? I still have to work with both of them. — No Name, No City
Dear No Name: We strongly urge you to stay out of this. Your female co-worker realizes she is miserable in this relationship, but is still unwilling to break it off. Unless there is physical abuse, relationship issues between co-workers are not your business. It's very likely that your comments would be resented, and this could damage your work environment.
Dear Annie: I am a psychologist with a heartfelt piece of advice for those whose teenage children are struggling with addictions or other issues, and who aren't facing the situation squarely.
Many parents hope their teen will "grow out of it." The problem is, most don't. When the child is under age 18, parents still have lots of power. They can sign their child into a treatment center and communicate with the doctors. This power is lost once the child reaches 18. Doctors are not allowed to talk with family members of legal adults unless the child signs consent. And an angry young adult who resists treatment is not likely to sign (or attend treatment, for that matter).
Yes, parents can tell the child that treatment is a condition of financial support, but this can backfire because parents are understandably hesitant to force a mentally ill or addicted child onto the street.
It breaks my heart to see parents of young adults wringing their hands over their child's substance abuse, bipolar disorder or whatever, when that child could have been forced into treatment years earlier. Please, parents, recognize this window of opportunity when you have it. — A Concerned Psychologist
Dear Concerned: Unfortunately, it can be difficult to recognize the severity of the problem at the time, and some things, like schizophrenia, are not apparent until the child is older. Parents do the best they can, but those who fear their child is slipping away should make sure to seek help while they still have the opportunity.
Dear Annie: I agree with your advice to "Left-Out Sister," but why does she wait for her older sister to tell her what the Sunday plans are? Why doesn't she initiate a chat so they can make plans together? Or she could make her own plans with Dad if she wants. She knows that Sunday comes around every week. There's no reason for her to always be left hanging. She sounds too passive. She needs to get involved and ask what's up for the weekend and become part of the decision-making. — P.J.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM
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52 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1-
Given the physical pain that he heartbreak will cause, it is to be wondered where to draw the line between physical abuse and emotional abuse here...
Considering this man is not in love with his girlfriend and never will be, I can only assume he chose a woman much older to make sure she would be flattered - and interested. It worked.
This would ne none of your business if they had truly kept it closed doors, but if you happen to know both about the office romance and his double life on the side, then it's not so private - unless perhaps you're the boyfriend? But of course you don't want to jeopardize your job or poison your working conditions. But in the present circumstances, it is normal that you feel both guilty and torn. Because yes, this is information that the woman needs to have in order to make an informed decision, and you're holding that information.
Two words: Anonymous letter. With checkable facts, and sent in a way that is not traceable. It may look sneaky, but it does the job of protecting both her and you. What she does with the information is then her chosen option and your conscience is clear.
LW2-
"it can be difficult to recognize the severity of the problem at the time, and some things, like schizophrenia, are not apparent until the child is older."
Not to mention conflicting diagnoses by doctors who don,t always look at everything theroughly, are quick to slap a label and then pull out the prescription pad. Especially in the case of clusters problems.
Some parents are guilty of dropping the ball and living in denial until their power to act is gone. Others did everything they could and the system is the one that dropped the ball on them - and the child.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:13 PM
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LW1: I disagree with the advice given by the Annies to stay out of this.
It really depends on how close the LW is with the woman involved. Let's take the gay thing totally out of this equation. If the man involved had a WIFE stashed away in another city, wouldn't you want the coworker to know she was being played?
IF the LW is close to the female coworker, this is the time for a little heart to heart. If it were a female coworker of mine and I knew her boyfriend had a relationship with someone out of town, I would take her out to drinks and tell her what I know.
If I WASN"T close to the coworker, I'd stay out of it.
PS: Another reason never to date anyone at the office! I hate this kind of melodrama.
PPS: Expect that your female coworker won't be entirely surprised. I don't know of one instance when I've been told a man is gay that it was a surprise. In fact, it has always been one of the moments where I've gone "Ah... it all makes sense". I am not that much younger than your female coworker and when we were kids, most gay people were still pretty quiet about it. The first time I knew for a fact (not just schoolhouse rumours) that a guy I was friends with was gay, I had already figured it out. Two of my friends who later came out I had known they were gay before they admitted it to themselves! There is an innate "gaydar" that most women have, even if they ignore it in the hopes that the fabulous guy who understands them, is fun to hang out with, and likes everything that they do is really straight. In this case, I'm betting the woman will be RELIEVED to know that she's not crazy, that her women's intuition that something is off in the relationship.
Comment: #2
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:38 PM
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Adendum: last sentence should read "In this case, I'm betting the woman will be RELIEVED to know that she's not crazy, that her women's intuition that something is off in the relationship is right on the money."
Another thought here: again, this depends on the relationship between the LW and the coworker BUT also the LW's reputation at the office.
True story: first guy I was close to who was gay (my best friend in college) and I used to go to the mall every weekend and check out guys. Every guy that I would think was cute, he'd say "Oh, nanchan, he's so gay" OK, he was usually right but it was irritating. I remember having a fit (man I was so YOUNG!!!) when we were watching Pillow Talk in the early early 80s and I was swooning over Rock Hudson and he said "GAY!" OK, even then I had to admit he was right, but this was before Hudson contracted AIDS and the world found out he was gay. He was, however, infamous in the gay community where we lived (So. Cal) and so when my friend told me that, I had that "ah... it all makes sense" moment again (even though my heart was broken!).
My point: if the LW has a reputation for accusing all men of being gay (like my friend, again, he was usually RIGHT) , he needs to be careful how he communicates the information. He should at the very least know some details about the boyfriend out of town before telling the female coworker. And he needs to be careful to be compassionate about how he communicates this information. Be KIND. Don't GLOAT. It's not a contest to see how many people are gay or how many are straight. Telling this information to the coworker should be done to help her make sense of things and for no other reason.
Comment: #3
Posted by: nanchan
Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:04 PM
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Re: LW1, the guy doesn't sound gay, he sounds bisexual. I'm going to skip over the stereotypes of bisexual folks, and say that regardless, he is pure sleaze, if he had a girlfriend in another city, 2 girlfriends in another city, 2 girlfriends and a boyfriend and a tupperware businesses in another city, bottom line is, he is a cheat and getting directly involved will do nothing for you but cause problems.................unless you send an anonymous note with details to the girl.........
Sexual orientation of the guy isn't the problem, lack or ethics is the problem. But just remember, if this 35 year old finds out that his 64 year old co-worker snitched on him, he may beat the crap out of you.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Mookster
Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:42 PM
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Re: Mookster
I COMPLETELY disagree with the concept of an anonymous note. What is this, junior high school? Shall the LW cut all the words out from magazines so noone can decipher the handwriting? How about a scavenger hunt for clues?
If the letter writer is going to tell the female coworker about the affair (and I agree that the guy is a sleaze totally!) then he has to be adult enough to do so face to face.
Sheesh! Anonomous letter.... crackin' up just thinking about some old dude trying to figure out how to sneak the letter in to the coworkers purse, or on her computer keyboard while she's powdering her nose, or writing it out in code and giving her a decipher ring out of the Cracker Jacks box?
Comment: #5
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:32 AM
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Lw1 doesn't mention his/her sex. Just that "I have loved a gay man all my life." why does everyone assume the Lw is a gay man?
Comment: #6
Posted by: MT
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:48 AM
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@ many posters
Why do so many BTL posters use the strange word "NOONE"? It looks like "noon" with an "e" on the end, and like it should be pronounced nooney! If you mean "no one" -- that's TWO words, not ONE.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Sunny
Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:53 AM
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MT, I agree with you. I assumed the LW was a woman, hence she understands "the probelm" of being a woman in love with a gay man, just like her co-worker is unwittingly doing. If it were a gay man writing the letter, I don't think he would refer to loving another gay man all his life as a "problem." Why would it be a problem if they're both gay?
Comment: #8
Posted by: Jane
Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:01 AM
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I believe LW1 is a woman, who, having also understood the dilemma of falling in love with a gay man, sees the same pain happening in her younger female coworker.
Any kind of action could blow up in her face, honestly, but... maybe she should try to make an excuse to go out to lunch with the *man* in this equation -- the 35 year old suspected gay man is also a co-worker, from the sounds of the letter.
And maybe she doesn't need to come out and saying anything at all about the situation -- maybe, she can just tell her own story, of falling in love with a gay man, the pain it caused her, the regret. She can joke about not realizing how "confessional" she was being with the younger man, and thanking him for his time.
But he'll understand the point, and it may help push him to stop stringing this woman along, and without the LW boldly inserting herself into their drama overtly.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:14 AM
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LW1 - I vote to stay out of it. If this woman was your best friend, yes, I would say something, but you give the impression that she's just a co-worker. If that's the case, stay out of it. She will eventually figure it out. And if she doesn't, well, it's really not your problem.
"I have loved a gay man all my life." Sounds like Grace from Will and Grace.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Michelle
Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:02 AM
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Mike H's suggestion sounds about right. I wonder though, how LW1 came across this info about the secret boyfriend ... I suspect through some surreptitious means, because if she had, for instance, seen them holding hands at the opera, she'd simply say "oh hey Bruce, I saw you and your friend last week at the opera, did you two enjoy it?". there would be no need to "tell on" him, or send an anonymous note etc, he'd understand that the jig was up. But if LW1 found out the info by snooping, then MYOB.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Steve C
Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:03 AM
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Re: Jane-8- 'Why would it be a problem if they're both gay?' for the same reason it would be a problem if a young woman was in love with a man who didn't return her affections.
Comment: #12
Posted by: alien07110
Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:13 AM
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LW1—“I have not mentioned this to anyone not only because it could hurt his position in our conservative company, but also because it's not my business.” I agree with the Annies; this isn't your business. The situation with the coworkers is heresy and you don't really know what the nature of their relationship is. For all you know, the female coworker is your male coworker's fag hag and they have the typical contentious relationship shared by many fag hags and their gays. My advice is to focus your energies and attention on discharging your duties and let your coworkers handle their own drama. And for the record, dating a gay man all of your life is not “a problem”, it's who you are. Perhaps you need to come to grips with your own internalized shame before you decide you know best how others should handle their own sexuality.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Chris
Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:40 AM
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Re: MT
Because he himself admits "I have loved a gay man all my life". If the LW was female, her quality of life wouldn't be worth much in that case, with that unrequited love being a forever part of it. But maybe Jane is right, and this is why she understands the "problem" - we just had assumed the problen laid differently.
@Sunny
Youre right and it grates me too, but I didnt want to say anything because so many people did it and I didn't want to address any one in particular as it looks llike the spelling police. You handled that perfectly and I thank you.
@Steve C
That's why I hinted in my own post that perhaps the LW himself may be the secret boyfriend.Chris certainly seems to think he is a man.
@Chris
"heresy" - did you mean "hearsay"?
Comment: #14
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:01 AM
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@ Lise Brouillette
""heresy" - did you mean "hearsay"?
Oops! Yes, I meant hearsay! Darn auto-correct!!!!
Comment: #15
Posted by: Chris
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:28 AM
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Re: Chris
Don't worry about it - with or without auto-correct, we all write piece for peace and vice-versa at one point.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:32 AM
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@Lise
Thanks :) I was afraid I'd get blasted for the comment, but it just jars me every time I see it and I always read it the first time as "nooney", then realize the poster meant "no one". After all, if you think about it, "no one" would say "notwo" would they?
Comment: #17
Posted by: Sunny
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:32 AM
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@LW1: I definitely assumed it was a woman too. If a man wrote this, it's confusing. It's as though he's saying he's in love with a gay man, but he, himself, isn't gay…? If he is gay and the other man just doesn't reciprocate his feelings, then he wasn't very clear! S/he claims s/he understands “the problem” but how is it a problem? Because he's so deep in the closet, he's finding Christmas presents?
@Chris: “For all you know, the female coworker is your male coworker's fag hag and they have the typical contentious relationship shared by many fag hags and their gays. My advice is to focus your energies and attention on discharging your duties and let your coworkers handle their own drama.”
GREAT advice, Chris! The LW doesn't have all the facts and I think this is a major issue of MYOB.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Casey
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:38 AM
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@Sunny: HAHA! I read it as “noony” too. That doesn't bother me too much. My “fingernails on a chalkboard” is when someone spells “lose” as “loose.” But no one's grammatically perfect (I make mistakes ALL the time) but it's nice to vent occasionally ;)
Comment: #19
Posted by: Casey
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:41 AM
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I agree with the rest of you that LW1 should stay out of it; doesn't sound like they're close friends, but I appreciate that she cares about the co-worker and what a predicament she's in.
Michael:
Nice to hear from you yesterday, how have you been?
Comment: #20
Posted by: jar8818
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:58 AM
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Re: Sunny
I think at one point "no one" has become short for "not anyone", but I could be wrong, Linguisics can be funny.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:02 AM
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LW1 - It doesn't matter if he's gay, bi, straight/married, a total dick head. If she's not happy with this relationship and is not being respected she needs to make some decisions. You can fulfill your need to butt in and keep him out of it at the same time by counseling her to look out for herself and help her understand that rergardless of the reasons if this is not a good relationship she needs to pull the plug. I know you're looking for permission to "out" the guy in some fashion but, no, you're not going to get it.
LW2 - According to a family member of mine it's not all that easy (legally) when their under 18 either.
LW3 - Hello. Welcome to January 2012. That letter was months ago. try to keep up here.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Rick
Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:27 AM
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Re: Rick - "they're" not "their".
Comment: #23
Posted by: Rick
Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 AM
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Sunny, I also thank you for the "no one" heads up. It does grate on my nerves, but that's what little things do. The one I try to ignore - but fail every time at ignoring - is the misuse of "their" "they're" and "there." And they're such easy little buggers to mess up.
Okay, I think LW1 is a woman and the "problem" is that she can never be loved in return as she wants to be by the gay man that she has loved for "all my life." Seems simple. I also think she's dying to tell what she knows and should butt out. No anonymous notes. No cleverly veiled hints. Just butt out. Although, now that I think of it, the next time this woman cries about how he treats her, LW could say straight out as if it had just occurred to her, "Well, maybe he's gay." And leave it. No whispering about how you heard he has a boyfriend.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:59 AM
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Oh Rick, you're funny AND sharp!
Comment: #25
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:02 AM
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Re: Mookster
I wouldn't put the 64 yr old out if there was a fight. When my grandfather was 60, a man half his age tried to beat him up and, well, let's just say there was two more hits. Grandpa hitting him and him hitting the ground.
Comment: #26
Posted by: p
Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:30 AM
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IF the LW is a woman, my advice still stands. In fact, it would be easier for a woman to talk to another woman about this kind of thing.
Chris: "For all you know, the female coworker is your male coworker's fag hag and they have the typical contentious relationship shared by many fag hags and their gays". Um, no, Chris. Go back and read the letter. There are too many sentences in there for me to copy and paste, but all indications from the letter are that the female coworker in question is traditionally dating the secretly gay man. What I see could be happening is that the gay man is "dating" or seriously leading on a straight woman in order to keep his secret a secret. For thousands of years, gay men have married or dated straight women in order to deflect attention from their true sexual orientation.
And if that's the case, the female coworker has every right to know. For the sake of argument, let's look at another scenario. The LW is female, the male coworker is STRAIGHT and is dating the female coworker. However, he has a wife in another town. this situation happened to me at my last job: we brought a guy to the States from Italy and he left his wife back there. This guy was open about the marriage to some women on the job, and told others he was single. One day, I was with him (I was one of the women who knew about his wife) at the coffee shop and asked him how his wife was handling the separation. Perfectly innocent question, right? Well, it turned out I had asked him that question in front of the coffee shop girl who DIDN'T know about his wife, and he was dating her on the side. He turned on me and told me to shut up and screamed at me in my office later that it was none of my business etc etc.
I personally think I did that coffee shop girl a favor (albeit unknowingly) and I believe the LW should do the female coworker a favor as well. It's not fair to be used. This does not mean the LW has to say "Your boyfriend is gay". What the LW should say is "Your boyfriend is in a serious relationship with someone in another city." Leave the gay part out altogether.
BUT, as I said in my original post, all of this depends on how close the LW is with the woman in questions. jar8818, I disagree with you that they aren't close friends simply because the LW refers to the woman as a coworker. I have many friends that I work with that I refer to as coworkers, it depends on the situation. It just depends on how close they are. If the LW is privy to dating details, I'd have to say that the relationship is close enough to tell the female coworker about the secret relationship.
Comment: #27
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:42 AM
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LW1 - I agree you either need to stay out of this, or find some way to issue an anonymous letter with concrete facts. If you cannot produce the latter, then follow through with the former.
nanchan - I disagree with the rule of "never" dating someone at the office. Yes there are a lot of office romances that don't work out, and companies have policies to protect people in those situations for good reason, but I've also seen a lot of success stories, including my marriage. I also apparently carried on tradition as my grandmother was my grandfather's secretary when he asked her out almost 90 years ago :-)
LW2 - Thank you for your letter. When my best childhood friend took his life, he had no serotonin in his blood. He biochemically switched off and there was nothing anyone could do because we simply didn't know.
He struggled with addictions starting in grade school... his family now believes he had bipolar. When he was a kid there was so little understanding of the disorder, and as he got older he learned to hide his darker side with humor. He was one of the funniest people I ever met; sadly he was *too* good if you think about it. Nobody knew how much he was suffering until the police found him at his apartment with a hole in his head at 24 :-( They think it happened so methodically it was like he was on auto-pilot.
I believe if he'd been born in a different time and place, he'd probably have gotten the help he needed and gone on to make a family of his own very happy. I only hope that his story has helped save someone else's life. In the meantime, I only hope I get to see him again when the good Lord calls me home.
Comment: #28
Posted by: PS
Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:56 AM
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Regarding Chris' suggestion that LW1's co-worker is already aware of the 35-year-olds sexuality and they have an agreement, it's certainly possible. Given that they work at a conservative company, the 35 year old gay and his 50-year-old female companion may be keeping his sexuality and their arrangement quiet. The 50 year old gets companionship and fun (most of the time) out of the deal, and there are countless examples and variations on the "gay man-straight woman" friendship out there.
Maybe she has been hoping for more and that's what makes her morose. Or maybe, like friends do, they have the occasional tiff. The LW, not knowing that the 50-year-old woman knows, interprets it one way, but she's not either of the primary people involved in this relationship, so she doesn't know what their agreement is, how candid they've been with each other when they aren't on company property.
So, although it's not an option I originally considered, I'll agree it's a definite possibility.
I've certainly had at least two close female friends whom casual observers always assumed I was dating (or married to!). One friend's husband *hating* shopping, and when we lived in the same apartment complex, we would do all our shopping together, including grocery shopping. And then we'd go out for lunch together as well. The sales clerks and waitstaff who saw us together regularly always assumed we were a couple, and maybe that's the same mistake LW1 is making, for all we know.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:23 AM
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Re: jar8818, thank you. I'm okay.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Michael
Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:53 AM
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Mike H's comment reminded me. Years ago in the 70's I was good friends with an African-American woman. We were in our *cough,cough*'s and we went shopping a lot. One time we were in Penney's and she was buying her boyfriend some pajamas. This stuffy little sales clerk asked her if she could help and my friend said, "Yes, I'm looking for some pajamas for my boyfriend". The clerk looked at me, looked at her, nodded towards me and said in a very snotty tone , "Oh, are they for him"?....My friend smiled, kissed me on the cheek and said, "Oh no honey. This one sleeps naked". I just smiled.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Rick
Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:59 AM
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LW1-The man could be bi. I read the letter that LW found out by accident that the 35 year old has a boyfriend, but it doesn't matter. Everyone in the situation is an adult. LW has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER talking about his orientation. Some assumptions I'd like to clear up:
1) This doesn't mean he doesn't love her. We don't know that.
2) The girlfriend doesn't know his orientation. She might.
3) LW knows actual facts about the boyfriend.
4) The girlfriend is struggling because of his orientation. There could be any number of things that are going on in this relationship.
Bottom line, NO ONE EVER has any right to butt into someone else's relationship and out them as gay/bi/trans/ whatever. But if you decide to anyway, do it to their face and not with a cowardly anonymous note. That is underhanded and cruel. The recipient has no way to check the information, ask questions etc. It is outright MEAN. Designed to assuage the writer's conscious without taking an iota of responsibility.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Walkie
Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:16 AM
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Re: Walkie
Great post. Best one of the day.
Comment: #33
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:03 AM
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Agreed, Walkie, if LW is going to decide to do anything at all, I think it should be with the man in question, not the 50 year old woman.
Let's even assume worst-case scenario, that the 35 year old man is a closeted gay man who has a secret boyfriend and is using the 50 year old woman as a "beard" without her knowledge or consent. In that scenario, if LW tells the woman, she'll either deny it and get angry with LW, OR she will confront the man, who will also deny it, and try to make the LW look like a liar and meddler who is "projecting her own unhappiness onto us because she's jealous of our relationship".
An anonymous note would likely have the same result.
However, speaking from personal experience, life in the closet is *difficult* emotionally. While I myself did have a few girlfriends in high school and college that were little more than "beards", I was also trying to "use" them to force myself into heterosexuality -- all in all a disaster, no matter how you look at it. That phase of my life ended when I was about 24, and for the next 5 years or so, I didn't date women, and any men I dated, I did so secretly -- in large part because, while I wasn't ready to be "out" to family and friends, I also didn't want to lie to any more women, didn't want to hurt any more women, with *my* issues.
The man in question here may still be struggling, maybe living in a conservative state or having a conservative family, and we know that the LW characterizes their company environment as conservative -- so he may still be *petrified* at the idea of being out of the closet, even if that would be the best option for him.
It could be that, if the LW feels she *has* to get involved at all -- which I agree is a dicey proposition at best -- then her actions should be directed at the man, if for no other reason than to use her own experience to share the damage that a relationship with a closeted man can cause. But LW should recognize that she may not have all the facts *at all*, as you and a few others of us have commented on. LW may be completely misunderstanding their dynamic.
Even if she's not, I just can't see how talking to the woman would end well.
A nice lunch out with the man in question and she might discover that he's bi and in an open relationship with the woman. Or that they've never been anything more than friends and the woman has agreed to act as his date in order to "keep his cover" so he doesn't get fired.
LW should also realize she is likely projecting her own situation a bit too much onto these two people, which is easy enough to do -- we all do it, to some degree, especially here BTL!
Comment: #34
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:13 PM
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Agreed, Walkie, if LW is going to decide to do anything at all, I think it should be with the man in question, not the 50 year old woman.
Let's even assume worst-case scenario, that the 35 year old man is a closeted gay man who has a secret boyfriend and is using the 50 year old woman as a "beard" without her knowledge or consent. In that scenario, if LW tells the woman, she'll either deny it and get angry with LW, OR she will confront the man, who will also deny it, and try to make the LW look like a liar and meddler who is "projecting her own unhappiness onto us because she's jealous of our relationship".
An anonymous note would likely have the same result.
However, speaking from personal experience, life in the closet is *difficult* emotionally. While I myself did have a few girlfriends in high school and college that were little more than "beards", I was also trying to "use" them to force myself into heterosexuality -- all in all a disaster, no matter how you look at it. That phase of my life ended when I was about 24, and for the next 5 years or so, I didn't date women, and any men I dated, I did so secretly -- in large part because, while I wasn't ready to be "out" to family and friends, I also didn't want to lie to any more women, didn't want to hurt any more women, with *my* issues.
The man in question here may still be struggling, maybe living in a conservative state or having a conservative family, and we know that the LW characterizes their company environment as conservative -- so he may still be *petrified* at the idea of being out of the closet, even if that would be the best option for him.
It could be that, if the LW feels she *has* to get involved at all -- which I agree is a dicey proposition at best -- then her actions should be directed at the man, if for no other reason than to use her own experience to share the damage that a relationship with a closeted man can cause. But LW should recognize that she may not have all the facts *at all*, as you and a few others of us have commented on. LW may be completely misunderstanding their dynamic.
Even if she's not, I just can't see how talking to the woman would end well.
A nice lunch out with the man in question and she might discover that he's bi and in an open relationship with the woman. Or that they've never been anything more than friends and the woman has agreed to act as his date in order to "keep his cover" so he doesn't get fired.
LW should also realize she is likely projecting her own situation a bit too much onto these two people, which is easy enough to do -- we all do it, to some degree, especially here BTL!
Comment: #35
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:13 PM
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It is also entirely possible GF knows about loverboy in another city. These couples are called "monogamish" and simply don't feel the need to broadcast (or more accurately, feel a need to hide) their open relationship.
And I agree he sounds bi.. maybe. Every time I have seen a very young man interested in a menopause age woman, he's been gay in the end. No Ashton Kutcher does not count, she was not menopausal when they got together.
Comment: #36
Posted by: wkh
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:28 PM
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and yes sue me I consider 35 to be pretty young in the sexual life of a man.
Comment: #37
Posted by: wkh
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:34 PM
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Re: Sunny # 7:
Your comments on noone meaning NO ONE. Yes. But some post with technology that self corrects. And the soft grey color on the website is NOT the best contrast of color to automatically pick up the WHOOPS.
Stick around, read more posts, that is not the only 2 words that run together. Or Separate themselves.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:08 PM
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Re: Mike H
When I was a voice student, there was this gay guy I hung around with. We were "in love", but in a totally platonic way. We were always together. People who didn't know us were sure we were a couple. People who did know us... well, some of them were even more baffled, especially another one of the singers with our same teacher, who had had zero contact with gay culture before he came to the big town to study voice. He just couldn't understand how was it possible that we were always together in and out of school, and there was no sex.
So yeah, what Chris suggested is very possible.
@Rick
LOL!
Comment: #39
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:19 PM
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Re: Joyce/MN
Of course not. And if it comes to that, a lot of people will have written they're for their for there all the while knowing the difference perfectly well, simply because they were going fast. It's just that so many people have been writing noone for no one... sometimes it will be a typo, sometimes not. Sunny set the record straight and she's right - we all should be more careful about that they're there, and not mistaken in their piece of peace - otherwise no one understands anything from noon to midnight! ;-D
Comment: #40
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:27 PM
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Re: wkh
Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! (face palm) Don't bring up the M word!
That being said, I have to agree that the age difference is suspect here as well. It almost solidifies in my opinion that the LW's male coworker is really gay and not bi, because dating someone his own age would bring up questions of procreation or at least marriage in most instances. Dating someone who can't bring children to the equation takes some of the heat off that questions.
Joyce: thank you! I wasn't going to address the Grammar Police because it's really stupid in my opinion to focus on a small typo and then not deal with the "meat" of the post. Usually those people are the ones who can't effectively address the message and have to resort to pettiness in order to feel better about themselves. Have at it, I say! Because the next time someone zeros in on a typo, it may be YOURS.
Comment: #41
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:07 PM
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@nanchan
I was NOT attempting to be the Grammar Police or single any one person out for the "noone" issue, but when so many people type that word incorrectly, it detracts from the meaning of what they're trying to say. Anyone can make a typo, and there's not usually any confusion when someone types "piece" for "peace" or "they're" for "their" because of the way it's used in the sentence. But a strange-looking word which appears to be "nooney" makes you stop in what you're reading and (at least initially) attempt to figure out what the unusual word means. I tried to point out in a respectful way that it made some comments difficult to read, and don't feel that I deserved your rudeness.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Sunny
Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:24 PM
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@ nanchan
"And if that's the case, the female coworker has every right to know."
While all of your points are very well taken, I disagree with you on this. Once again, you're assuming that it's YOUR place to protect this woman from dating a "secretly" (not established by the letter) gay man. Moreover, you also apparently think it's YOUR place to protect a straight woman from dating a secretly married man. It's NOT your place. Who are you to go butting into anyone's relationship half-cocked to inform one partner or the other of the other's secrets?!? I'm just asking. In the past, I've been aware of many scandalous office affairs. One in which a young woman was secretly trysting with an older married man. Did I barge in and inform the woman (or the man's wife) of my knowledge of the affair? Of course not; it's called minding my own business. I'm at work to work; not to keep score on people's sexuality, who people are dating, who's cheating on his or her spouse or anything else that's not my business.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Chris
Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:35 PM
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Chris"
First of all: I had NO IDEA what the coworker was doing! I thought I made that clear. I only found out later (when I innocently asked about his wife, which I thought was public knowledge and he reacted like a jerk) that he was living a double life.
It's not my place to "out" anyone, but you know what? if I have a friend who is being affected by someone elses's secret, I will tell. Just my code of living HONESTLY.
Sunny: I wasn't targeting you, but if you want to take it that way than fine. I live honestly, post honestly, and personally think your post was just as rude to me as you claimed I was to you.
Comment: #44
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:30 PM
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@nanchan Thanks for the compliment.
I thought your personal example was clear. If a guy has a wife that the *entire* office knows about, it's a totally reasonable and logical assumption that it's common knowledge, and polite conversation to ask after one's significant other. The poster that ripped you apart missed the huge differences in the situations.
I also think it's an entirely different story to tell a close friend what you personally witnessed ie-clear cut cheating. I see my best girlfriend's husband making out when I *know* they have a monogamous arrangement? Damn straight I'm telling her! I see the husband out having lunch with a chick? I shut my piehole. It could be work, a cousin, whatever. I'm not going to plant suspicions that I can't back up with hard proof.
One last point about the gay/bi guy. Why does he have to be either? Can't he still be straight? I've made out/had sex with a couple chicks, had fun, but totally identify as straight, because it's MY RIGHT TO SELF IDENTIFY. No one else's. If I say I'm straight, I'm straight and it's highly offensive for some ponce to say otherwise. Sure, there are plenty of closeted folk out there, but they shouldn't have the closet door yanked open or kicked in on them. NOT COOL.
Comment: #45
Posted by: Walkie
Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:43 PM
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@nanchan
Frankly, I can't see how I was "rude to you" when I neither addressed my original comment to you nor mentioned you in any way. I only responded to you when you implied that I only brought up the "noone" issue because I had nothing worthwhile to say. You obviously have some insecurity issues, and I feel sorry for you. I apologize if I added to them, but they are your problems not mine and I won't respond in kind by arguing with you. You have my sympathy.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Sunny
Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 AM
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For myself, I think there's a difference between *me* living by a code of honesty, and something else when I choose to force other people to live by my code by making the choice for *them* and revealing *their* secrets without permission -- especially when I might not have the whole story.
Unless we're talking about physical harm, or a crime like theft or swindling, I'd be reluctant to simply insert myself into someone else's situation and make a choice to reveal someone else's secret.
More likely, if I felt compelled to act, I'd have a talk with the secret-keeper first. Far better to convince them to reveal it themselves, or to get them at least to back off the situation. I think that would be better than deciding I have the right to make choices regarding other people's lives like that, especially when we're all fallible.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:57 AM
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Re: nanchan
You claim your post was not directed at Sunny, but whatever you said certainly included her at the very least. She had every right to take it personally. For someone who claims to be posting so honestly, you seem to be playing with words here.
And I don't care if you also keep screaming from the rooftops that you "don't read Lise's posts anymore"... You do, you will, and others will also.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:12 AM
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LW1: just speculation, but...could the LW's gay crush be the mae co-worker's OFT boyfriend?
Comment: #49
Posted by: partsmom
Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:35 AM
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Oh, wow, partsmom, if that IS true, what a soap opera that would be!
Comment: #50
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:07 AM
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As someone that was unbeknownst to me, married to a gay man for almost ten years, I feel like somewhat of an expert on the situation. I met my ex-husband in high school and dated him all through college. We married and had three lovely children together. I knew there were problems and even suspected that there was another person, but did not suspect that he was gay. It was one of the most difficult situations that I've gone through in my life. Now over ten years later I have moved on and let go of most of the anger and bitterness. After speaking with other mutual friends, they revealed that there were rumours even back in college and they thought that I knew. I didn't and would have been so thankful if someone would have told me and spared me the huge heartbreak. That difficult situation has made me a stronger person and I would never regret the wonderful blessings of my children--but I do regret that I didn't listen to my intuition that something wasn't right and dearly wish that someone would have shared their suspicions with me. It is not an easy thing to do and with this situaiton being in the workplace, it's even more touchy. But do the right thing and tell her! An anonymous letter is a safe option and won't drag you into the drama. Life is messy but should still be lived with honesty and intergrity.
Comment: #51
Posted by: Robyn
Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:45 AM
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Re: Robyn
A story like yours is exactly why I advocate spilling the beans, through an anonymous letter so that there is no drama. Thanks for sharing.
Perhaps you would have not believed... at least right away. But I believe even if you hadn't, it would have made you more on the look-out for signs and you wouldn't have wasted ten years of your life.
But... all things happen for a reason. Your children are three of them!
Comment: #52
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:38 PM
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