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Dear Annie: Last month, an old boyfriend contacted me. I hadn't seen "Bud" in 30 years. We had a wonderful conversation. I visited him at his home. He even sent me a large sum of money to help pay off a mortgage bill. We now talk at least …Read more.
Trusting Cheaters
Dear Annie: I'm in my early 20s and have been dating "Aidan" for a year. He attends college two hours away. He doesn't socialize much and stresses a lot about his grades. His only real friend is "Cara," a girl we went to high …Read more.
Bare Naked Mommies
Dear Annie: I am becoming excessively annoyed by a new trend I'm seeing with my friends who have recently become parents — the "naked mommy."
I'm 27 and have not yet had children. Several of my friends are having their second or …Read more.
The Long Trip to Tenuous
Dear Annie: My father and I have never had the best relationship. He was domineering, controlling and verbally abusive to me as a teenager, and as a result, I rebelled and did things specifically to irritate him. Several times, he kicked me out of …Read more.
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Ex Con on the Straight and Narrow Canned
Dear Annie: After eight years at my job, I was let go. I have a felony record. The CEO who knew of my background retired last year. He felt I had proved myself and had no problem with me. When he retired, we got an interim CEO. I told him about my record as soon as he came on board. Today, he decided our company would have a zero-tolerance policy for any criminal records, so I was fired.
Annie, I voluntarily told my supervisors of my conviction. I worked hard to show that I had overcome my record. Was this a fair thing for the temporary CEO to do? Shouldn't I have been "grandfathered" in? I was told if I kept to the straight and narrow, I would be fine. I have not done one thing out of line and don't plan to. My conviction was more than eight years ago. But apparently, my honesty didn't pay off. No one forgives. No one believes me. I am devastated. What can I do? — Think I'm a Good Person
Dear Good Person: If a company fires you because of your race, sexual preference, gender or religion, you would be able to sue them for wrongful termination. If the zero-tolerance policy was implemented solely to skirt around one of the reasons listed above, you might have a case. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much recourse, although you could consult an attorney. Please know that your eight-year record as an exemplary employee should help you land another job at a more tolerant company. Also contact the Safer Foundation (saferfoundation.org) for suggestions and assistance.
Dear Annie: My longtime boyfriend and I recently married. My entire family was there. They adore my husband. But not a single member of his family attended our little church wedding.
The morning of our wedding, one of his sisters texted my fiance and asked whether it was "done yet." When I made a comment on my Facebook page about how amazing my new husband is, this same sister rudely commented, "Enough already."
My boyfriend finally told me that this sister thought we should marry in a Catholic church, despite the fact that I am not Catholic and both of us attend a non-Catholic church. I believe this is why his family didn't recognize our special day. I am really hurt. Should I say something or simply ignore this? — Biting My Tongue in Colorado
Dear Colorado: Your husband should have told you about his family's religious objections before you married. An intermarriage is hardly a trivial matter, and if you have been with this man for a long time, we are surprised you were not aware of the issue. If his family is otherwise accepting, we would let this go. We also suggest you discuss the problem with your clergyperson and ask for guidance.
Dear Annie: The letter from "Put Out in Peoria," whose family members boycott one another's weddings, is a sad but classic example of the many petty family feuds that make their way into your column. Everyone has flaws, and family members hurt one another's feelings, usually unintentionally, perhaps because of conflicts or envy going all the way back to childhood. Bad behavior and selfishness should not be condoned.
However, I'd like to suggest that anyone who is fuming about her young children not being invited to a wedding or about her cousin's claiming Grandma's garnet ring that was promised to her should pause to consider all the real suffering there is in the world — such as the person down the block with terminal cancer or the friend whose child was killed by a drunk driver. Just grow up and get over it. — Rude in Redway, Calif.
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM
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Comments
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71 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - The husband's sister was so rude to text "done yet" and then even ruder to write "Enough already." Neither one of those comments indicates that she has a problem with their religion. But each of those comments indicates that she's rude, mean, inconsiderate and disrespectful to her brother and his wife. Good riddance that they weren't there. Defriend her from Facebook, that's what you should do. You won't have to say anything then, because actions speak louder than words.
Comment: #1
Posted by: FAW
Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:20 PM
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LW1 -
"Was this a fair thing for the temporary CEO to do?
NO. Looks like he was trying to prove himself, in order to become permanent CEO.
"What can I do? "
Consult a lawyer - or two, or three. Do get a second or third (etc) opinion if you need to. You may have a case for wrongful dismissal. People OUGHT to be allowed to change. And then, the same hypocritical bastards complain about repeat offenders. Sheesh.
P.S.: You've made yourself into a good person by turning a new leaf. That doesn't mean you should take injustice laying down. Fight the SOBs! If only to make a point, for the RIGHT for anyone who made a mistale TO CHANGE FOR THE BETTER. I really HATE it when some f*cker refuses to acknowledge that someone is trying to make a new start, and keeps picking at the scab. Yrrrrch.
LW2 -
You have two options:
a) Let it go. They're never gonna change their minds.
b) Convert to catholicism, at least making enough of a show of it to have a suitable catholic wedding. It may be the only thing that'll change their minds.
I don't know if it's worth it, though. You choose. But I suggest you discuss it with hubby. And yeah, how come this never came up, in all this "long time" he was your boyfriend?
LW3 -
Yeah, well, if the people creating such problems were mature and generous enough to see that, there would be no problem created in the first place, get it?
As it is, trying to get them to see that is like trying to describe red to someone colour-blind. Been there, done that, waste of time.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:44 PM
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Lise,
Why should LW convert to Catholicism? She and her husband attend a church that suits them. If they are happy, they should care not what his family thinks.
I admit that religion means not anything to me. But it matters deeply to some people who will not just convert to please someone's parents. Stand by your convictions.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:04 PM
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OK Lise...to be fair, you mentioned converting as one of your options. Your option a) is better, but your option b), after the marriage has taken place just is not realistic. One's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, are so deeply imbedded in who a person is, that it is not a matter of....OK ...I will change my deepest religious beliefs so your parents aren't mad at me. My mother in law tried that crap with me right after I had a difficult C-section...now you have to attend Mass every Sunday. Informed her in no uncertain terms that my spiritual life is mine. Should be the same for everyone.
Comment: #4
Posted by: Carly O
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:12 PM
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My former mother in law, a Catholic, married a man who had been divorced so they married outside the Catholic church.
They raised the kids Catholic. When, as adults, the kids learned the whole story they were enraged. They hollered that their parents were "living in sin" and generally gave them hell. Then the daughter said, "Hey. If you were not married in the Church that means were all illegitimate! Mom, we are BASTARDS!"
Mom, who had had about enough of this drama, slit her eyes at her daughter and said, "Yes, and you are MEAN bastards!"
Comment: #5
Posted by: sarah stravinska
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:41 PM
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Re: Carly O
Frankly, that would be for the LW to decide, as it is, as you noticed , only an option.
Personally, I have found out that there is a big difference between spirituality and blind adherence to some dogmatic religion. The difference between one brand of Christianity (and even between different monolistic religions, for that matter) and the other matters not one whit to me. Believe or die? Fine, I'll adopt your brand of whatever. It's all the same God anyway - I see it, even if you don't.
Know what I mean?
But of course, not everyone feels that way, and option b) would be at the LW's discretion.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:43 PM
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Re: sarah stravinska
Hee hee - and mean, dogmatic, fanatical bastards at that. Idiots.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:45 PM
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LW1: I'm sorry to say that your "honesty" did you in here. It's possible the new guy would not have fired you if you had kept your mouth shut. With your work record, there was no reason for you to sabotage yourself by telling him about your felony conviction. In the future, if you find a good job and it goes well, keep your past to yourself. If you've turned it around and are doing a good job, it's nobody's business. You went out of your way to bring something negative about yourself to this new guy's attention, and that was unfortunately a huge mistake. Don't do it again.
Comment: #8
Posted by: LouisaFinnell
Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:59 PM
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* * * * * OFF TOPIC ALERT * * * * *
To Joyce/MN
Thank you, Joyce, for the info on Camp Courage on the 14th February thread. I've passed it to my son.
He's good at rock climbing, orienteering and has some water sports qualifications. He's a patient teacher with young and old.
He's doing his own research, even looking at ski training; I just thought I'd see if anyone had any extra recommendations. Best if he gets on without too much interference from me. Helicoptering is not my style. I'm certainly not looking for someone to “give” him a job, just expanding his range a little.
Thanks again!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Comment: #9
Posted by: Beguiling Miss Pasko
Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:46 PM
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LW1:
I want to be sympathetic, but at the same time, I have no idea what kind of job you had and what the felony was for. I'm actually wondering if the reason the C.E.O. passed the zero tolerance, was specifically because of you.
Lets be honest, it really depends on the crime and the job, if your crime was burglary and your job was as a secretary, then its sad that he fired you, if your crime was sexual assault on women, and your job was as a building super with keys to apartments, then the C.E.O. might have concerns.
One of my buddies felt he had to fire someone who worked for him for several years, despite the fact that guy had never, while there, done a single thing wrong and had been a model employee (his crime, was a hate crime against a gay interracial couple, he had since been rehabilitated and actually was ashamed of what he had done when he was younger, and was a totally different person, never the less, he was fired when several employees found out and threatened to quit as long as he was there, and they were deemed more essential).
I'm not sure also if you have a case, I honestly don't think you do, but that really could depend on the state your in also.
LW2:
I got a feeling your hubby isn't being totally straight with you. It doesn't sound like they have a religious gripe with you, it almost sounds like you and them don't even know each other and they don't like you. Your saying not a single one went to the wedding, and you had no idea about this until the wedding itself ? You also had no idea how they felt about the importance of a catholic wedding until after you are married and then, only because your husband told you that ? and that Facebook message sounds obnoxious and rude, but not bigoted, just stupid (though the 2 are not mutually exclusive).
It would be one thing if this was only this sister, but for the whole family to boycott ? and no one said a thing about this in advance ? This all sounds fishy. Also, anything happen at the reception ? This just has to many question marks.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Mookster
Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:17 AM
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Mookster, Re: LW2 I'm with you.....too much information left out of this story. Is she really this clueless? I'm Catholic and none of the Catholics I know would boycott a family member just for marrying in an other than catholic church. That's just silly. If that IS the only problem they should go talk to a Catholic priest. He may be able to help without the letterwritter having to convert. BTW my husband isn't Catholic but they married us. Also, I have friends that were married in Las Vegas then later had their marriage blessed in the church so there may be options for the letterwritter on that matter.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Claudia
Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:23 AM
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LW2 - Is this possibly yet another case of "editing" by Creators? There seems to be a lot missing here. It's hard to believe that the LW and her boyfriend have been together for a long time without his family's religion ever having come up. Even if the LW didn't know of their beliefs, the boyfriend certainly would have and should have told her before the wedding. In any event, the SIL's behavoir certainly doesn't reflect Christian behavior and the LW is well rid of her. If getting along with her new husband's family is important to her, however, I agree that she should talk to a Catholic priest to see if there is a way for him to have her wedding accepted or "blessed" by the Church. Converting to a religion in which you do not believe shouldn't be an option, and would be hypocritical.
Comment: #12
Posted by: sam
Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:47 AM
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Creators is now signing my posts as "Sam" -- who the hell is Sam????
Kitty
Comment: #13
Posted by: Kitty
Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:58 AM
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LW2, religion is a touch subject for anyone whether they are deeply religious or not at all religious. I am catholic, my husband is protestant. We were married in my church because it was more important to me. His grandmother had a fit and asked us if we would consider being married by her longtime pastor. As I loved this lady I said I would not be bothered at all if I did. I got his number and called him. What he told me was necessary was completely outrageous. First, I HAD to join his church. I would need to convert my religion for six months before he would marry us (which would mean rescheduling the wedding). I also had to sign an agreement to have all my children baptized as Protestants. I thanked him and said I did not wish to do so. Then he pulled the "it would mean so much to ****** she may not have much time left" card. Sheesh!!!!! After that, I told her and she said, "OK, I had to at least ask". We were married in my catholic church and the only requirement was a marital prep class (that everyone had to take). Our wedding was wonderful and Granny had a great time. She also had no beef with our kids being baptized catholic. So if you think its just catholic churches that are anti-other religion, guess again!!! If some family member takes exception to your "intermarriage", its their loss. Enjoy your lives together and let no man (or family religion nut) put asunder.....
Comment: #14
Posted by: Cathy ARmacost
Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 AM
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LW1 - I say to contact an attorney and see if you have a case. I would think working there for 8 years with no problems would not be grounds for firing, no matter what your background is. Good luck.
LW2 - Maybe it's a religion issues, maybe that's just an excuse. If you married in a Catholic church or converted, something tells me there would be something else they would suddenly have a problem with. If I were you, I'd barely have anything to do with them. De-friend them from Facebook or hide them from your posts, don't call them and don't voluntarily visit them. If you want to go with your husband if he's invited for a holiday, that's up to you, but don't go out of your way for them.
I am Catholic and it is NOT taught in Catholocisim to hate others who are not Catholic. It is taught to respect all religions. I have had several members of my family convert to another religion, especially when they got married. Nobody makes a fuss. Nobody cares. It's not an issue. My one cousin married an agnostic. We all like her and it bothers no one. Why the Annies say an interfaith marriage is not a trivial matter is beyond me.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Michelle
Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:30 AM
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Re: Michelle
To most people it IS a trivial matter, but to some it's the end of the world. Yes, Catholics are supposed to be taught to respect all religions. And that is what the tolerant ones go by, but what the bigots actually do teach can be another matter. I attended several boarding schools with the nuns as a youngster, and I've seen both.
This being stated, yes, there seems to be a lot missing here.God only knows what was edited out THIS time.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:50 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette I wonder why LW1 told the new CEO about his/her record. If I'd been in that position, I would've assumed that it was the old CEO's responsibility to tell the new one whatever he needed to know. But I like what you said. We say that actions speak louder than words. A person's actions, when they turn over a new leaf, should speak for themselves.
Comment: #17
Posted by: carolyn
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:22 AM
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Re: Mookster I'm sorry your friend felt pressured into firing that one guy. The others should've tried to be more understanding, especially since the guy was ashamed of his past behavior and was showing that he was a different person. Yes, we all judge a person for who they were, but we should also look at who they *are*. Even G*d doesn't hold over our heads things we did in the past, if we change our behavior and start to do better. If any of those other guys makes a mistake and isn't forgiven for it, maybe they'll remember what they did to this guy that your friend fired.
Comment: #18
Posted by: carolyn
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:28 AM
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Unless LW1's crime had to do with the kind of work he's doing, if ever in that situation again, it might be best not to say anything. Once you've made the disclosure once, it shouldn't be any kind of company policy violation to not redisclose (if the first CEO found if relevant, it would be in your HR file).
Comment: #19
Posted by: Jodie
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 AM
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Unless LW1's crime had to do with the kind of work he's doing, if ever in that situation again, it might be best not to say anything. Once you've made the disclosure once, it shouldn't be any kind of company policy violation to not redisclose (if the first CEO found if relevant, it would be in your HR file).
Comment: #20
Posted by: Jodie
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 AM
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LW2 - I can imagine that the family felt very strongly that the couple should have married in the Catholic church. I myself am Catholic & know many Catholics. I know a Catholic family in town where this has been an issue. 2 of the sons & their families attend non Catholic churches and no one doubts their Christian faith. However, the mom is still bothered that their families aren't Catholic, and it comes out in various stupid ways, like not attending some of the grandkids' religious ceremonies (e.g. Baptism in their chosen church). However, what I can't imagine is that the LW never discovered the strong religious views of her boyfriends' family during the "long time" they were dating. I never met people with strong views like this who kept them secret from their kids while the kids were growing up & seriously dating someone.It's really odd that the whole family boycotted the wedding, and again, it's really odd that this wasn't obvious before the wedding days. RSVP much? Talk to the family much? Suggest to this couple that they talk to the parents' Catholic pastor & ask him to intervene on their behalf and help them see that their kids are adults, married, church going, even if not Catholic, and help them all get along. Or have a priest intervene with the sister if she's the decision maker in the family.
Comment: #21
Posted by: kai archie
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:37 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
Ahhh, I see your point now. Every day I read these letters and thank God that most of my family is normal, LOL!
Comment: #22
Posted by: Michelle
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:39 AM
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LW 2 - As a practicing Catholic I find your in-laws' behavior shameful. My own priest has told me he doesn't care who, clergy wise, performs my marriage service. He said his concern is that we say our vows in the sight of God, a clergy person of any denomination will fulfill that requirement. Your sister-in-law has a problem. Do not make this your problem. Be warm with your new in-laws, civil if you can't manage warm. And write your sister-in-law off as a bad debt. You will only be able to have a relationship with her if she drops the nastiness, don't expect that any time soon, and don't trust it if she does drop the act. She will have to earn your trust. Remember, for someone who is claiming to be a follower of Christ, her behavior is anything but Christ-like.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Jenny
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:41 AM
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LW 2: I would have just kept making posts on FB about what a wonderful wedding I'm having with my husband and our family. Now that the wedding's over, I'd just make a post or so a day about how wonderful your husband is. Emphasis on husband. The sisters sound like the type of girls where if you give them enough rope, they'll hang themselves. Remember when you were a kid and played the "I'm not touching you" game, hoping to bait your sibling into slugging you so that they would get in trouble with mom or dad? This is the adult version.
LW1: As long as you disclosed your past during the hiring process, I'm not sure why you disclosed it to the new CEO. I hope LW1 reads BTL so maybe they can clarify that for us.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Shannon
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:49 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
I certainly wouldn't suggest to LW2 to convert to Catholicism. Any religion that treats women like second class citizens and denies her the ability to control her fertility isn't cool in my book.
I think the sister is simply a mean and spiteful person, and there's nothing you can do with mean and spiteful people except for ignoring them and hoping they go away. My brother is a mean and spiteful person, and so I know of what I speak.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Janie
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:51 AM
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my family was protestant, my husband's catholic. his only sibling was a priest. neither one of us was attending church at the time. we both acknowledged god, but not the institution of religion. but our families were important to us. his mother insisted that her other son had to preform the wedding and my dad said it had to be in a protestant church. happily for me i had a good friend who was a methodist minister. he got together with my future brother-in-law and they tell me it was a lovely ceremony. i don't remember it. i just remember the stress of having to organize a wedding that i didn't want in the first place. we did have to go to pre-cana, but there was no promise to convert or to raise the children catholic. when we had children, my brother-in-law possibly went outside of church policy to baptize my boys. i realized that i was able to make my own decision as to religion based on knowledge gained in sunday school. i didn't want to bring my sons up without knowing who god is. my mother-in-law was furious when i started taking them to the protestant church down the street. i wasn't about to go to a catholic church, where, unless it was my brother's-in-law, i was made to feel like an intruder. oddly enough, my brother-in-law told my mother-in-law to back off. when my father died, if my husband had been willing to go to church, i'd have gone to the catholic church with him and brought our children up catholic, but he wanted no part of any religion. i, on the other hand, have gotten closer to the church. my point is that we had to decide how important our families were to us and like many things in a marriage, we had to compromise. i'm very lucky in that my brother-in-law thought my mother-in-law was being too demanding and got her to back off many times. i don't know what would have happened if he hadn't been there.
Comment: #26
Posted by: alien07110
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:54 AM
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Re: sarah stravinska, 5- ps, sarah, that was priceless! reminds me of the time my son and i got into an argument and he stomped out of the house. i walked out on the porch so i could see which way he was going in case i needed to know later. he heard me come out on the porch, turned around looked at me and from half a block away, yelled. 'bitch!' at me. i laughed and asked him, 'and what does that make you?' he came to a dead stop and broke down laughing. i just wish all of our arguments could have been defused that easily.
Comment: #27
Posted by: alien07110
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:58 AM
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take two.
Re: sarah stravinska, 5- ps, sarah, that was priceless! reminds me of the time my son and i got into an argument and he stomped out of the house. i walked out on the porch so i could see which way he was going in case i needed to know later. he heard me come out on the porch, turned around looked at me and from half a block away, yelled. 'bitch!' at me. i laughed and asked him, 'and what does that make you?' he came to a dead stop and broke down laughing. i just wish all of our arguments could have been defused that easily.
Comment: #28
Posted by: alien07110
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:14 AM
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@LW1: I completely agree, Mookster. Did she text “Is it over yet?” because she was waiting for the reception to start, or did they skip everything?
It's extremely odd that the woman did ask * why * no one in his family had RSVP'd “yes” and why he hadn't been honest with her. The fact that it was a long term relationship, and she had no idea how important it was to his family to get married in the Catholic Church, I have to wonder if that was just an excuse. Maybe it's the woman the family has the problem with.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Casey
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:17 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette
LW1 - Unfortunately in America, LW1 would not have a cause for wrongful dismissal. The Annies correctly stated the protected reasons from being fired but forgot to include age as well. It is often very difficult to prove any of these reasons though. IF the LW has even been late once since the CEO started that would be enough justification. In the U.S. you can be fired for just about any cause including the owner's son doesn't like you or some petty reason like that. LW1 should start a job search now and put the good years of honest work into a new company that will appreciate him. He should also try to contact the former CEO who was so willing to take a chance on him and ask for a recommendation letter to add to his resume.
LW2- I totally agreed with most of what you had to say except for the suggestion of converting to Catholicism. Religion is a deeply personal relationship that a person has with their creator. I highly doubt that changing religion to please some surly family members is the right reason. It would surely result in resentment on the LW's part for having to change who she is and what her personal belief system is. It is unfortunate that a lot of religiously intolerant family members don't show how intolerant they are until the wedding and after. Too many just assume that the new family member will have the wedding in the family's religion and will convert as soon as the engagement is announced. Her husband was already attending her church so he seems firmly on her side. She should listen to the other posters and unfriend her sister-in-law and let her husband explain to his family what is and is not acceptable behavior on their part.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Paula
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:19 AM
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Re: carolyn
I suspect if he was worried that new company policy was going to require a background check that it might come up, or since he was honest with the previous CEO then other employees also probably know about his criminal past and the LW was hoping to avoid potential problems before it was inadvertently disclosed or came up in a background check. A lot more companies are doing back ground checks than in the past. They are even doing credit checks on folks who don't necessarily work in business sectors that require access to large amounts of cash. It is very unfortunate that this man was fired by the new "zero tolerance" policy.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Paula
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:27 AM
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LW1 - It depends on the crime and your job. Without that info (which you understandably did not share), it's hard to either condemn your CEO's choice, or agree with it. I have felt that once people have paid for their crimes (through jail, parole, community service, fines, etc), that crime is DONE, irrelevant. Society has been paid back as per our laws. The way to turn ex-cons into contributing members of society is not by shunning them and not allowing them to work. That said, if your crime was violent in nature and you work with the public, I can see where your CEO is coming from.
Anyway, I don't suggest you fight this. You don't have much of a case, but feel free to consult a lawyer who might be more optimistic. I suggest you stand tall, find a new job (there is one out there for you!) and keep doing what you're doing.
LW2 - Really though, please don't inundate Facebook with messages about your new husband. Go tell him in person. Maybe that is why your SIL said "enough already". Just de-friend her. If she's being a mean jerk, problem solved. If you're annoying her with your constant "my husband is the best!!!!!" posts, then again, problem solved, as she will not be able to read them. If you need to keep up appearances, you can leave her as a friend but change your settings so that she can't see anything you post.
And don't confront her. What's it going to achieve? Just say non-committal things if you have to ("Whatever you say, sis." "Sorry if it bothers you, sis.")
As an aside, we just bought our first house out in the boonies! We move on March 15!
Comment: #32
Posted by: Zoe
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:40 AM
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Hey Lise Brouillette, we're now past the halfway mark of February. Only two more weeks to go until your next welfare cheque.
Comment: #33
Posted by: John Dung
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:54 AM
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LW1—Yours is yet another in a long string of examples I can think of where even though someone has paid restitution to society for a crime committed, society continues to punish in every way possible. By quickly concocting a zero tolerance policy, your new boss was able to put on a good show as a person with high integrity while simultaneously dispatching the riffraff. Since it's unlikely you have any real legal recourse, my advice to you is to seek out employment opportunities with smaller companies owned by people who takes an applicant's life story and body of work into consideration as a whole as opposed to making a hiring decision based on a quick glance at a background check.
LW2—Don't you just marvel at how loving, compassionate and accepting Catholics are? While I agree with the Annies in that your husband should have disclosed his families rabid religious fanaticism well in advance of your nuptials, I think it's appalling that your nut job of a SIL and the entire family for that matter is basically using their religious beliefs to exile you from the family. What would they have preferred, that you and your husband be true to yourselves and your beliefs or put on a completely phony, insincere religious ceremony based on THEIR beliefs? Personally I say good riddance to the entire lot. Feel free to get on FaceBook and tell your SIL to take her Catholicism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Chris
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:54 AM
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Lw2- Two Christian denominations is hardly an "intermarriage". Not like, say, a Jew marrying a Muslim. I can't believe that religion is this family's only issue with the situation. And if it is, then it's better to keep your distance from Crazy so feel blessed at least about that.
Lw1- if you had a good relationship with the CEO and you know how to get in contact with him maybe he has contacts and would put a good word for you somewhere else.
Comment: #35
Posted by: It's me
Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:36 AM
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Re: carolyn
Thanks, I had met the kid he fired (well, before he was fired), he had had some issues earlier in life, fell into a skinhead group, but during his time in jail, had had a change of heart, and when he came out, renounced his past, and everything with it.....In his case, his co-workers found out, because someone new at the company recognized him from being related to one of the victims. My buddy was distraught, he honestly pondered letting the other employees walk out, but realized that if he lost crucial employees because he kept a reformed former nazi skinhead, he would wind up losing all his customers too and then the company.
I remember talking to one of the guys who worked there about this after it happened, and his words were clear "Some things are never forgivable", in a company with so many progressive employees, their thirst for vengeance was frightening. I'm wondering if thats the concern or relatable to LW1s situation.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Mookster
Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:36 AM
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Re: Zoe Congratulations on buying your first house!
Comment: #37
Posted by: Michael
Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:52 AM
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LW1 - I'm on the fence with this. I too wonder why there was any reason to tell... I guess you wrongly assumed that you would be able to tell this new CEO in an effort to be transparent? It's a shame that he is not as tolerant or understanding given you've proven over 8 years that you are willing to work hard.
I'm not sure if they can help, but maybe you could call the EEOC and see if they can let you know what your legal rights are. If they can help, they can pursue a case against them and I believe it's on their dime. Otherwise I'd go with what the Annies suggest.
LW2 - First, Chris, please, get off it. In case you didn't read any of the comments left by other Catholics BTL, the stuff LW2 described is not how we normally roll, okay? Your snide remarks are unjustified.
Yes, there are *some* Catholics who are intolerant of others' beliefs, unfortunately I've run into more than one, and even more unfortunately, I used to be one a long time ago... but this is not a problem unique to the Catholic Church. Plenty of other Protestant faiths and even non-Christian belief systems have their share of narrow-minded jerks. They don't, however, define what the rest of us believe or if we're willing to be tolerant of others.
*steps off soapbox*
Getting back to the subject... what LW2's new SIL is saying is her own opinion and probably based on her own insecurities. It's been my observation and experience that people who pull that stuff are often trying to keep from looking deeper at their own beliefs or avoid admitting they're having their own faith crisis. My suggestion would be to just ignore her and avoid her until she can get over herself. It's not worth exposing yourself to that kind of poison.
LW3 - I agree with Lise. If such folks didn't have a need to be petty they wouldn't act that way, and it's pearls before swine to illustrate that point to them.
Comment: #38
Posted by: PS
Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:12 AM
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@ PS
I'll be happy to "get off it" when Catholics and other religious conservative folks stop lobbying the government to block my basic human rights. Capisce?
Comment: #39
Posted by: Chris
Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:00 AM
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Re: PS / Chris
There are jerks in every group, and we know that the majority of Christians are normal and kind. But PS, many Catholics, even those who are not outspoken or fanatical are against gays and gay marriage. You can't blame a gay guy for having had it up to here (way above forehead) with that nonsense. It's not exactly the same, but I would not respect any religion that actively maintained that women were lesser than men, or that white people are sinful just by being white, or whatever - even know that most of those people were nice and normal.
It's easy to say "most of us aren't as crazy as LW's SIL!" when the religion in question does not actively try to trample and your rights and liberties.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Zoe
Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:17 AM
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LW 2-- The husband had an equal say in planning the wedding, why didn't he suggest a catholic wedding? He had to know well ahead of time that his family wasn't coming, but he never mentioned it to his fiance. He sounds weak or passive-agressive. I think his family just doesn't like his wife and he is using religion as an excuse.
Comment: #41
Posted by: locake
Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:21 AM
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Re: alien07110 #26
Hi, we have Cathlic priests officiating in other churches all the time--weddings, funerals, etc. Same with Lutheran and other backgrounds crossing over. Maybe it is our small town neck of the woods--
Same if someone had no church but grew up as a Lutheran, and if they died, the funeral home can ask the priest or any other ministerium member (meaning all churches in our area belong to this 'organization' in which they meet) to perform the rites--whether in their place of worship or at the funeral home.
I think this grooms family had an itch up their butt and decided to act out in this manner. Maybe they never liked HIM much less his bride. Rather toxic relatives--but since the behavior is chosen, should not have to worry about it being a gene thing.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:44 AM
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My thoughts exactly, locake!
Comment: #43
Posted by: Casey
Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:53 AM
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lw2- I was raised catholic, so I can tell you a catholic marrying a non-catholic is a big deal in catholicism. You actually have to get permission from the bishop beforehand. In Catholicism, you must take premarriage counseling and agree to raise/baptise your children catholic. On top of all this, I'm pretty sure the church requires you to marry inside a catholic church. If you do not do any of this and you are catholic, then the catholic church does not recognize your marriage. To the catholic church, you are just two unmarried people living together having sex, which is a sin.... not to me, to the church.
I recently started attending a catholic church again, but I am a baptized catholic who married a non-catholic (baptist) in a non-catholic church. The priest explained all of this to me, then asked if I wanted to take the necessary classes with my husband and go through the process in order to get my marriage recognized by the church. I chose to decline it for the time being and still attend the church... maybe later I'll go through the process if I ever feel it is necessary or it becomes important to me. By technical means, the church is not suppose to allow you to accept the sacrement if your marriage is invalid, but my priest still gives it to me because he knows I was ignorant of all this when I married.
My family (which is catholic) did not care I married outside the church. They have always been loving and supportive. They were disappointed, but they attended my wedding, and those who could not sent cards and gifts. They have only been accepting of us, but they are real christians who are kind people. Even my die hard catholic grandma said, "Oh.... ok, whatever makes you happy." She even drove a days drive away to be able to attend my wedding.
This being said, die hard catholics who are mean spirited would not recognize your marriage because it is considered invalid by the church, and because you would be unmarried even after the ceremony "living in sin" in their eyes. All children will be bastards in their eyes. Your husband should've told you all this before the marriage to prepare you. This is why they are being so mean-spirited and did not attend the ceremony.
You and your husband WILL have to come together as one and form a united decision, then act upon it. His families comments and attitude will begin to undermine your marriage if you do not do this. He will have to grow a back bone and stand up to his family. You must yolk together on this and not allow his family to threaten your marriage, and you should both attend a church together which recognizes and supports your union. If his family continues to treat the marriage as invalid, it would be best to distance yourselves from them... for your marriage.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Maria
Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:10 PM
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LW2: Tell that beach of a SIl that you're waiting to convert until you feel loved, respected and welcomed by the family--that ought to take care of it right there. The fact that none of them even showed up and yet had the nerve to criticize the ceremony means they're not good family, much less good Christians. And you can always say, tongue in cheek, that SIL may not respect your religion but nevertheless you're going to kill her with kindness.
And why would this SIL even want to be on your FB page if she didn't want to express pride/delight at you joining the family?
Comment: #45
Posted by: angoradeb
Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:22 PM
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Re: carolyn
I was asking myself the same thing. It would seem to me that the ancient CEO knowing it was enough, and that it ought to have been up to him to inform the new, temporary one. Unless there is something crucial that has been left out either by the LW and/or the Annies, it would seem to me that he was being transparent to a fault and that no good deed goes unpunished.
One Catholic prayer says, "Help us forgive the sins of our brethen as they are expected to forgive our own". Too many people mouth the words and don't bother to listen to what they're saying...
@Janie
My dear, there isn't an organised religion in the WORLD whose first agenda is not to control women's sexuality and fertility. Given that, it really doesnt matter where you pick your poison.
And you're 100% right about the sister.
@Paula
I agree that any lawsuit based on discrimination is an uphill battle, especially in the case of employment. Any outfit big enough to have a CEO generallty knows all the tricks on how to get rid of someone all the while covering their (jack)asses. A lawyer can give him the odds on his chances, as he'll be told a lot more detail about the case as we have here.
Your suggestion that he goes to his former boss, the old CEO, for a letter of reference is GREAT - I wish I had tought of that myself and I hope the guy reads BTL!
@Zoe
Congrats on the new house!
@Chris
"What would they have preferred, that you and your husband be true to yourselves and your beliefs or put on a completely phony, insincere religious ceremony based on THEIR beliefs? "
Yes, that's it exactly! Given their hypocritical bigotry, they're being pretty phony themselves, and sorry excuses for Christians - of ANY denomination!
@It's Me
The ex-LOML (Muslim) was telling me that Muslims are allowed to marry outside their faith as long as the other person is following a one-God religion. That would include any Christian and Jew. Jews, however, feel differently, and not just towards Muslims.
@PS
I don't think Chris meant to single out Catholics so much as bigots, which exist in any faith. Keep in mind that the repeated scandals about our priests and the molesting of young boys has not done catholicism any good publicity.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 PM
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LW1 Your story breaks my heart, speaking as a felony probation officer. I don't know how extensive your prior record is, but if it's one felony, and ONLY one felony, you might be able to get your conviction expunged. People in my area have to wait 5 years after their conviction date (not sentencing date - big difference) to apply for this. In my state/county, all you have to do is motion the court for $45 and request it. No lawyer needed. Your story breaks my heart, because I see the most talented people lose their jobs because of a felony conviction. There is probably not a whole lot you can do with your old job, but you have EIGHT years experience in you field of work, and that will look real pretty on a resume. Keep your head up. There really are other jobs out there, in spite of the media's statements. Good luck, LW1. I really mean it.
Comment: #47
Posted by: happymom
Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:18 PM
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"I was raised catholic, so I can tell you a catholic marrying a non-catholic is a big deal in catholicism. You actually have to get permission from the bishop beforehand."
Not true. My husband and I didn't.
"In Catholicism, you must take premarriage counseling and agree to raise/baptise your children catholic."
You do not have to get premarital counseling if you are in an interfaith marriage in the Church, that's also not true. My husband and I had to but that was because I had gotten an annulment because my first marriage was abusive, and they wanted us to attend counseling as a safeguard to ensure I wasn't entering into another abusive union. IMHO that is smart thinking.
Yes, they ask that you raise your children Catholic - but I have to wonder what you expect here. If you are attending a Baptist church, you'd have to raise the kids Baptist. Same with Mormonism, same with a lot of other denominations and religions.
At the same time I talked to a religious education instructor who was my religion teacher in high school about this... he said the Church's position is that a married couple consists of two adults, and as such expects them to work this issue out accordingly and with maturity. In other words one spouse shouldn't badger or manipulate the other spouse into giving up their beliefs or commitment expected of them by their faith tradition in respect to raising the kids.
"On top of all this, I'm pretty sure the church requires you to marry inside a catholic church."
Yes, they do... but there are many other religions that ask for the same, e.g., Mormonism, Orthodox Judaism, etc., so what's your point?
"If you do not do any of this and you are catholic, then the catholic church does not recognize your marriage."
Not true. They recognize you are married... they just don't recognize it as a Sacrament within the Church. If you divorced your spouse after marrying in a non-Catholic church, you would still have to go through an annulment process of sorts to declare the union invalid before you could remarry.
I'm not sure where you're from Maria, but I want to point out that there are various parishes and dioceses who will sometimes come up with their own rules as to what they require for someone to be able to marry in the Church. My husband and I married in an archdiocese that is a little more liberal and progressive in some ways. They didn't require us to take natural family planning courses because I'd been married before so I think they assumed we knew all we needed to know. Meanwhile I guarantee if we'd married out where we live now, hoo boy... different story, because they're very conservative out here.
I would suggest consulting another priest or two about this at neighboring parishes. You may be surprised at what they have to tell you (and sadly it's a nice eye-opener about how ignorant some priests are about the Church's own teachings and regulations!).
"But PS, many Catholics, even those who are not outspoken or fanatical are against gays and gay marriage."
So are a LOT of other religions... again, why single out the Catholic Church here? If you're going to mention them, then mention all the others who do it.
"I don't think Chris meant to single out Catholics so much as bigots, which exist in any faith."
He didn't clarify that until his response to me in which he said Catholics AND other religious conservatives, so I was addressing him within the context of what he said.
"I'll be happy to "get off it" when Catholics and other religious conservative folks stop lobbying the government to block my basic human rights. Capisce?"
Whatever you say, Chris... how about if we call it even if you stop making blanket assumptions about those of us who are religious while we're at it?
Comment: #48
Posted by: PS
Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:56 PM
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LW1: You were already an employee for 8 years so why did you tell the new interim CEO about your past? That was pretty stupid. You should give some thought as to why you self-destructed.
LW2: If you're not friends with his family and they obviously don't like you - why do they have access to your FB? Are you stupid? Accept the fact that not everyone is going to like you and move on.
Comment: #49
Posted by: Diana
Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:17 PM
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@ PS
"Whatever you say, Chris... how about if we call it even if you stop making blanket assumptions about those of us who are religious while we're at it?"
Okay, will do. You know there are certain members of bee hives that don't sting. They're called drones. They make up only a small percentage of a bee hive's population. If I were to make presumptions about ALL bee colonies based solely on the behavior of the drones then I'd be making a huge mistake when I approached a bee colony expecting not to be stung. Would you agree or not? Based on reality, I'd be wise to assume that ALL members of bee hives sting and protect myself accordingly even if there are a small percentage of the bees that don't sting.
Comment: #50
Posted by: Chris
Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:18 PM
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With C on this.
If you're a member of a group that, amongst other beliefs, advocates something morally wrong (say, beating puppies), to say you're not part of the problem because you quietly don't advocate that act, while dutifully attending group meetings and pledging allegiance to the grand pooh bah puppy smacker, is disingenuous. You are part of the problem.
That's why many have difficulty with the "well I'm not THAT kind of catholic (Muslim, Christian, etc etc)--we're not ALL like that" argument.
Comment: #51
Posted by: Jpp
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:08 PM
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Re: Diana
I have to ask -- why are you such an angry person? Your comments always seem to label people either "stupid" or "morons". What is it that's made you so rude, cruel, and judgmental?
Comment: #52
Posted by: Kitty
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:10 PM
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Queen of Interfaith Marriages:
That's what I like to call myself because:
1) My mother is Catholic; my father is Jewish
2) My husband is 7th Day Adventist (SDA), and I'm a lovable mutt (see No. 1)
3) My SIL is Catholic, married to my atheist brother
4) On the Jewish side of my family, almost every single one of them married a non-Jew
You might glean from the above that interfaith marriages in my family are "no big deal." And that would very much depend on which relatives you asked because:
1) Not a single one of my mother's relatives attended her wedding (including her own mother) because she was marrying Jew.
2) Some of my husbands SDA relatives opted not to attend our wedding (a few who attended left when the dancing got started). And I might add that although SDA is a protestant sect of Christianity, those SDA relatives likely had more issues with my Catholic mother than my Jewish father. Hubby told me one of the teachers at his SDA school actually taught the students that the pope is the Antichrist. I'm not kidding. So, the whole, "but they're both Christian" thing is meaningless.
3) Atheist brother married Catholic SIL in a Catholic church -- her cousin, a deacon, presided -- and still some of her relatives were PO'd -- and actually my father was a little annoyed because he knew that my SIL doesn't practice her religion, so he didn't understand why my brother had to go through pre-cana, etc., when her religion really doesn't matter to her (and she would tell you herself that her religion doesn't really matter to her -- she just thought the church was pretty)
4) One of those non-Christians actually converted to Judaism, and she and her hubby have always been a little snippy about the fact that no one else converted.
Guess what, folks -- when it comes to religion and interfaith marriages, there are no absolutes.
Comment: #53
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:18 PM
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You folks are all insane to continue to hash over others problems this way. John Dung is correct that those of you that are collecting welfare on tax payers dime cause angst in us hardworking adults. It would be one thing to post one comment but the way you all carry on like your lives depend on it is a complete waste of life.
Comment: #54
Posted by: stopthemadness
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:41 PM
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You folks are all insane to continue to hash over others problems this way. John Dung is correct that those of you that are collecting welfare on tax payer dime cause angst in us hardworking adults. It would be one thing to post a comment but the way you all carry on like your lives depend on it is a complete waste of life. But i know you will all be back here tomorrow as nothing deters you. It's much easier to comment on others lives than to address your own issues.
Comment: #55
Posted by: stopthemadness
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:44 PM
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LW1: get yourself a lawyer, now. (Although I will preface the comment by saying that it was totally foolish and stupid of you to tell your new employer that you have a criminal record when they did not ask for that information)
If this happened as you said it did - you first told the CEO of your record, and then they changed the policy so that it would affect ONLY you and no one else, then it is discrimination. They wanted to fire you specifically, and it was unethical. If you have had good reviews for the past 8 years, and your former CEO will stand up for you, then it sounds like you have a case. I don't know why the Annies say you don't. I mean, this is the age of frivolous lawsuits - people sue because they didn't like a movie. But your case is quite legitimate. You should get a lawyer, and fast. And, get your former boss to be a reference for you so you can look for a new job. You don't say what the crime was, however.
LW2: As a newlywed, these things will bother you more now, and will subside later. Just ignore it. However, bragging about how amazing your spouse is on FB is really annoying - i can't stand it when people do that online.
Comment: #56
Posted by: Salty
Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:42 PM
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Re: Salty
I knowww. I have friends on FB who constantly talk to each other, tell each other amazing they are, how much they love each other. They live in the same house for pete's sake!
Re: stopthemadness
You realize that by posting here you are doing exactly that, right? You're one of us, now. One of us, one of us, one of us... Want some koolaid? Oops, "flavoraid".
Re: PS
I mentioned the Catholic church because that's what we are talking about. It's not "singling out", it's just being topical. I alluded to other religions in my post. It should be a given that I'm not into ANY religion that marginalizes, condemns or otherwise prevents any facet of the population on the sole basis of their color, creed, gender, sexual orientation, etc. And that would be why I do not associate myself with any religion.
This statement makes it clear that you just don't get it:
"how about if we call it even if you stop making blanket assumptions about those of us who are religious while we're at it?"
Chris (or anyone) painting all members of X religion with the same brush is NOT the same thing as a specific religious group actively lobbying the government to prevent gays from marrying. Disdain is different from persecution. I am glad this is not something that hits home for you because it is an awful feeling to know that a large, recognized group of people think you are sinful or wrong, or worth less, because of something you cannot change about yourself. For example, an idiot chauvinist who thinks and proclaims that women crash cars and are only good for cooking? Stupid, but not particularly bothersome. An idiot chauvinist who actively tries to curtail a woman's right to vote? Not ok.
Anyway, religion is an endless debate. Let's all be happy that none of us here is out punching women or gays or Catholics tonight for fun (I sure hope not, anyway!).
Re: Lise B / Michael
Thanks! It has a chicken coop!!! If any of y'all come to Ottawa, hit me up for some eggs!
Also interesting, Lise, what you said about Muslim rules for interfaith marriages. Makes sense, really, since it's all the same god!
Comment: #57
Posted by: Zoe
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:54 PM
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Re: Jpp
It's the other way around, jpp. The ones who advocate violence, intolerance, bigotry and fanaticism are the ones who are being BAD Christians, Jews and Muslims, because this is not what the Holy Books stand for. And BTW, the Old Testament is a Holy Book common to all three religions.
@Stopthemadness
Be careful you're not one to need the social net at one point. Not to mention that this is gonna come as a surprise to you, but there ARE some people who have worked enough years and paid enough taxes into the system in their lives to have a right to avail themselves to it when they need it. In fact, that's exactly who that system is supposed to be there for.
@Zoe
"I have friends on FB who constantly talk to each other, tell each other amazing they are, how much they love each other. They live in the same house for pete's sake!"
When there's that much overkill, it makes you wonder if they're trying to convince themselves first and foremost.
What I find interesting about Islam is the present dichotomy: on paper and in principle, it is the most tolerant religion on the face of the Earth. Written black on white in the Qoran that women are the equals of men and that a man has no business taking a second wife without being able to both support AND satisfy the first AND with her approval. ONLY religion with provisions for divorce - bilaterally. But the way Islam is applied in practice.... ooooh boy. Lots of bad Muslims out there.
Ottawa, heh? I migh take you up on that at one point, Ottawa is not very far from from Montreal and I've been wanting to explore the vintage market there for a while.
Comment: #58
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:09 PM
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Catholicism is NOT a religion-- Christianity is. I am a practicing Catholic who, like my mother, married a non-Catholic. While she had to get special dispensation (back in 1965) to marry a non-baptized non-Catholic, I did not. I did not attend any Pre-Cana classes, either. We were married by a justice of the peace before my husband's first marriage (between 2 non-Catholics) was annulled; then we were married on post at Ft. Bragg by the Catholic chaplain. I am currently in a new parish due to a cross-country move, but at my previous one, not only were gays tolerated, they actually served on committees and held respected positions in our church (lay Eucharistic minister, for one.) We had the coolest priest who stood for compassion and ostracized no one. Yes, my husband had to agree to raise our children Catholic, but it didn't matter to him--I'M the one who raised them. He has never attended a church service (he claims to be non-denominational) so why would I raise them any way BUT Catholic? ANYWAY, LW2 wouldn't need to convert to anything to be married in the Church. Sure, they'd ask her to raise children Catholic but that doesn't mean she would, and it isn't like anybody's going door to door checking! As for those of you who say the Catholic Church treats women as second class citizens--exactly where does this occur?? And just because the Church teaches that we shouldn't be on birth control, how many of us do you think actually follow this?? I am 44 years old and am NOT about to give birth again. The Church isn't paying my bills to feed, clothe and house the four I have, so I am not taking any chances :) God helps those who help themselves, right? Why don't you Catholic bashers target a group a little more appropriate, like the nutcases at the Westboro Baptist Church who picket servicemen's funerals?! Should we all lump ALL Baptists into a category with THEM?
The Catholic Church as a whole is a lot more tolerant than a lot of you think. Gays are accepted here since the Church teaches that we are all God's children and nothing He created can be bad. I teach at a Catholic school where we have single mothers as teachers--ones who never married but had children as well as divorced ones. The superintendent of our archdiocese is a divorced mother of 3. We teach acceptance and compassion to our students. You should try it!
Comment: #59
Posted by: rusty
Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:14 PM
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Catholicism is NOT a religion-- Christianity is. I am a practicing Catholic who, like my mother, married a non-Catholic. While she had to get special dispensation (back in 1965) to marry a non-baptized non-Catholic, I did not. I did not attend any Pre-Cana classes, either. We were married by a justice of the peace before my husband's first marriage (between 2 non-Catholics) was annulled; then we were married on post at Ft. Bragg by the Catholic chaplain. I am currently in a new parish due to a cross-country move, but at my previous one, not only were gays tolerated, they actually served on committees and held respected positions in our church (lay Eucharistic minister, for one.) We had the coolest priest who stood for compassion and ostracized no one. Yes, my husband had to agree to raise our children Catholic, but it didn't matter to him--I'M the one who raised them. He has never attended a church service (he claims to be non-denominational) so why would I raise them any way BUT Catholic? ANYWAY, LW2 wouldn't need to convert to anything to be married in the Church. Sure, they'd ask her to raise children Catholic but that doesn't mean she would, and it isn't like anybody's going door to door checking! As for those of you who say the Catholic Church treats women as second class citizens--exactly where does this occur?? And just because the Church teaches that we shouldn't be on birth control, how many of us do you think actually follow this?? I am 44 years old and am NOT about to give birth again. The Church isn't paying my bills to feed, clothe and house the four I have, so I am not taking any chances :) God helps those who help themselves, right? Why don't you Catholic bashers target a group a little more appropriate, like the nutcases at the Westboro Baptist Church who picket servicemen's funerals?! Should we all lump ALL Baptists into a category with THEM?
The Catholic Church as a whole is a lot more tolerant than a lot of you think. Gays are accepted here since the Church teaches that we are all God's children and nothing He created can be bad. I teach at a Catholic school where we have single mothers as teachers--ones who never married but had children as well as divorced ones. The superintendent of our archdiocese is a divorced mother of 3. We teach acceptance and compassion to our students. You should try it!
Comment: #60
Posted by: rusty
Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:16 PM
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@rusty -- with all due respect, Catholicism IS a religion, and you are what some refer to as a "Cafeteria Catholic" -- that's someone who picks and chooses which aspects of the faith to believe in/practice (and yes, there are Cafeteria Protestants, Cafeteria Muslims, Cafeteria Jews, you name it). Like all religions different people practice it differently. But let's not pretend that it's not a religion, and let's not pretend that some of the tenets that YOU don't follow aren't relevant or aren't important. The restriction against birth control isn't important TO YOU (and many others, certainly), but I'm pretty sure if you asked the pope, he'd tell you it IS important. That YOUR particular parish is so open to homosexuals is not the way it is everywhere and doesn't negate the fact that Catholicism preaches that homosexuality is a sin. I applaud your parish for being so open to homosexuals, but that simply means that your priest and parish practice "hate the sin, love the sinner" Christian ideal -- but that doesn't mean this religion doesn't hold as one of its beliefs that homosexuality is a sin (and, if I were a homosexual, I'd find it awfully darn difficult to practice a faith that suggests that loving my partner is a sin).
As for "well, you can tell them you'll raise them Catholic, but that doesn't mean you have to..." again, maybe that sounds like a good way to handle it, but I'm pretty sure if you asked the pope -- or even your local parish priest -- they aren't going to say that's OK. Basically, that is lying. So, there you are, in a church, TAKING VOWS BEFORE GOD, and you are lying about (at least) one of them. There are some who might suggest that's a pretty giant breach of integrity, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I don't have a problem with Catholicism -- the entire maternal side of my family is Catholic and I love them (well, most of them!). I don't agree with some of its beliefs, but then, that's why I'm not Catholic. I am not picking on Catholics. There are nut jobs in EVERY religion. There isn't a single religion out there that has a monopoly on sanity.
Oh,and by the way, you didn't have to go to Pre-Cana because you were married by a justice of the peace (i.e., not a Catholic wedding). I don't know this for certain, but my guess is that you didn't have to do it after the fact when you were married again on a military base by a Catholic chaplain because even though the chaplain was Catholic, military chaplains are expected to work with all denominations, so in reality, that probably wasn't a Catholic wedding, either. But again, even if I'm wrong about that, the fact of the matter is, different priests and different parishes undoubtedly handle these things differently, so just because you didn't have to go through Pre-Cana doesn't mean no one has to.
Comment: #61
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:00 AM
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Chris:
"Okay, will do. You know there are certain members of bee hives that don't sting. They're called drones. They make up only a small percentage of a bee hive's population. If I were to make presumptions about ALL bee colonies based solely on the behavior of the drones then I'd be making a huge mistake when I approached a bee colony expecting not to be stung. Would you agree or not?"
No, I don't agree, and that is where I'm going to stop participating this argument. It's clear you're having too much fun spinning in circles and believing every religious person is stupid and unable to think for themselves to continue taking it forward. I can't discuss an issue with someone if they're not willing to at least have an informed opinion about it.
stopthemadness: What Zoe said... did it occur to you that some of us are able to type fast and do this while on breaks or lunches? Duh :-)
Comment: #62
Posted by: PS
Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:49 AM
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Diana:
The dictionary defines your favorite word, stupid, as the following:
- Lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull
- Characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless
- Tediously dull, especially due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless
- Annoying or irritating; troublesome
- In a state of stupor; stupefied
I would say your posts qualify as stupid based on at LEAST four of the five criteria above. If you're writing them in a state of stupor, then you've managed to hit all the marks.
Congratulations.
Comment: #63
Posted by: PS
Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:55 AM
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Re: rusty
You are describing a remarkably tolerant community. I'm very happy for you and your children that you found it, but it is not like that everywhere, an certainly not what *I* have seen.
What I said about Islam in my post #58 applies to any other religion or denomination, catholicism included. Yes, in principle, we are supposed to all be part of God's creation, and how can anything He created be evil, and how can any form of true love be bad? Yes, I know, but the gay-bashers feel otherwise, and pull out the excerpt about men lying with men being an abomination - among others. And, in spite of the story about the adulterous woman, there are plenty of people out there who have no problem at all throwing the first stone.
Just like the Pope himself (an immensely powerful man, especially compared to every other Church leader) has no problem telling us women we are on Earth to breed and shut up. I'm glad, believe me, I'm VERY glad that you don't adhere blindly to such yurunda, and even gladder that you've actually found a community with enough wisdom to sort the grain from the chaff. But, as far as the Pope is concerned, if you are using contraception, gay, a single mother or divorced and remarried, you are living in sin.
Do not confuse the rare wisdom of your exceptional community with the dogma of the church's highest authorities.
Comment: #64
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:36 AM
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Re: Lisa
"Cafeteria Catholic"... Hee hee, I had never heard that one.
I would think that the majority of people into a religion of any kind will be exactly that one degree or another. Most people choose the aspects that suit them, all except the most fundamentalists - which is why they're called fundamentalists.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:39 AM
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@LW2: This sounds like what happened to my mother. My father's parents and family are Christian, and they have become somewhat more so in recent years. They boycotted my parents' wedding and refused to acknowledge the births of either of us children. Although she tried for more than forty years to earn their favor, she never did, except for my grandfather and a great-aunt. When I moved State-side, my father's siblings basically rejected me. When I went to visit my dying grandfather, I drove for several hours to see him in the hospital, but nobody offered me so much as a bite of food or a place to sleep until I was on my way out. We did find out the time and location of my grandfather's funeral, but a couple years later when my great-aunt died none of us were invited. I found out where the ceremony was and crashed it, only to see the oddest thing ever. The minister appeared to not have met my great-aunt, or at least not to have known her very well. He nattered on and on about my great-aunt's religious convictions but didn't once talk about any aspect of her life, such as the successful business she ran, the relationship she had with her former wife, or the way she cared for my grandfather before his death.
At present I only hear from my father's family when they want something from me. So they can keep their standards and also their religion as far as I'm concerned.
Comment: #66
Posted by: R.A.
Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:59 PM
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Um, excuse me, Lisa, but Catholicism is NOT a religion. Catholicism is merely a TYPE of Christianity. Major religions include Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and Christianity. There are many smaller ones--those of indigenous peoples and the like--but those are the world's 5 major ones. I am NOT a Cafeteria Catholic--I follow every single rule given to me even if I don't like it, going on birth control only when it would have been idiotic to have another child, although I wanted one. It turns out my to-be-ex-husband is an alcoholic---having another baby with him would be stupidity personified. (Had I written a letter here whining about what was I going to do now that I am pregnant again--because I wasn't taking birth control--and I was married to a violent alcoholic, I'd have been slammed all over this board for being too stupid to go against my religious beliefs....you can't have it both ways!) I didn't mention that earlier because you do not have to be privy to my personal issues in order for you to cut me some slack. My priest agreed with me when I told him I had to seek a divorce for the safety of my children (husband took a swing at me), saying, "Jesus wouldn't want you living that way."
The Catholic Church DOES condemn homosexuality but not homosexuals themselves. The issue is with the homosexual behavior itself. To be fair, just because I am a heterosexual and say I love someone, it doesn't give me free rein to have sex with him if we're not married, so just because 2 men or women are homosexual and say they love each other doesn't mean they should be engaging in sexual activity either. Granted, I don't know what to do about the issue of marriage since gays can't marry in most places. All of the gay men and women I know profess that homosexuality is a LIFESTYLE, so not sure how to reconcile THAT with any religious teaching...
As for us being married on a military base as not being a Catholic wedding--once you are married civilly, the ceremony is called a "validation ceremony." I have the paperwork from the Archdiocese of the Military to prove it. Anybody married anywhere--regardless of church--has to have a civil marriage license, which we have. It just wasn't signed by a Catholic priest. Doesn't make it any less valid to the Church. I didn't get given away by my father, didn't walk down any aisle, didn't have bridesmaids, etc... but we were married by the Catholic chaplain--no other chaplain could have made it valid--inside the building (Catholics cannot be married outdoors), saying vows that are part of the Catholic Church's ceremony (i.e., we do not say "I do" but, rather, "I will", etc...) I NEVER said that because WE didn't go through Pre-Cana no one else has to. Another poster said everyone married in the Catholic Church HAS to, and I was merely pointing out that is not the case.
Comment: #67
Posted by: rusty
Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:03 AM
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Re: rusty
You are not being slammed for choosing to go on birth control so you wouldn't have another child with a violent alcoholic husband, you are being taken to yask for refusing to see an important point:
The Catholic Church (and yes, it IS being called that everywhere) DON'T CARE what justifiable circumstances you were in, as far as they're concerned, a woman is there to make babies and there is NEVER a good enough reason to use birth control. Tell them your circumstances and they'll start prattling about the will of God and the trials of Job. Heard it enough times to feel sick just thinking about it. If you were to confess of this to the Popoe, not only would he slam you with a huge pennance, but he would threaten you with excommunication unless you promise on a stack of Bibles to tow the line.
So yeah, from the moment there is one important tenet you refuse to follow at any time and for any reason, you indeed are a "cafeteria catholic". You're not being blamed for that, you're being blamed for being in denial. I would think that, on an emotional level, you still feel very guilty about going against the grain, even though you know very well intellectually that it was the right thing to do, otherwise you would quite see the point we're trying to make.
And BTW... although you are correct that, semantically, religions are defined as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddism, Induism, etc., the Catholic branch of Christianity is being called a church and a religion, everywhere and routinely - probably because of the preeminent importance of the Vatican, which functions as a separate state, and of the Pope, who wields an enormous amount of power - Catholic popes used to make and unmake kings across Europe. No other earthly religious authority comes even close since the removal of the Muslim califate. So, although you are technically right, you are in fact splitting hairs on this matter.
Comment: #68
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:34 AM
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Oh, God, not those stupid Catholics again. Intelligent people have no right being part of that so-called religion. They are nothing but communists who think that they have the right to take away my rights of birth control and my girlfriend's right to an abortion. Well, you ain't doing that!
If I had a ray gun that rendered Catholics unable to have children forever, I'd be attending every mass and bingo tournament that I could. Then we wouldn't have these worthless people overpopulating the earth like they are now.
And, yes, Catholics do treat women like second-class citizens. A priest is able to hold mass just because he has a penis? What about the story of Deborah being a judge holding court in the open?
Don't worry about humanity suddenly ending just because a few people decide that sex is more than just procreation. It's also a legitimate tax-raising service for the states. Why do you think being a porn star is no longer illegal? Because the states realized that these famous prostitutes are bringing in good revenues.
Of course, I'd like to hear what Catholics have to say when I bring up the facts that the church used to operate several brothels, suicide wasn't always a sin (it was finally outlawed when too many parish members confessed their sins and killed themselves while still in a sinless state), and that priests had wives and children (and mistresses and bastards as well).
Of course, the one question I'd really like answered by Cathohlics--Why do you belong to a religion that instigated the Spanish Inquisition and murdered thousands of innocent people simply for being slightly different?
Comment: #69
Posted by: TheRichcraft
Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 AM
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Re: TheRichcraft
The same thing could be asked of fundamentalist Muslims, of the (Protestant) Nazis of Germany, and of a few sect-like branches of Christianity as well. If it comes to that, when it comes to murdering people because they're "slightly" different, I have a few bones to pick with the high authorities of Israel...
I would also remind you that the massacre of druids and priestesses of the old Celtic religions of Britain was performed by Christians a long time before Christianity splintered into different churches. Persecuting, putting down and eliminating the "slightly different" has never been a Catholic exclusive - lots of so-called God-worshippers out there, who are completely out to lunch when it comes to brotherly love (never mind sisterly).
Comment: #70
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:14 PM
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This letter really upset me. People make mistakes and that's ok, because it's not about the mistakes you have made, it's about what you do with it that matters. It sounds like the "good person" had there life on track and was doing the right thing. He was even honest with the employers about his felony. His honesty should account for something. I believe that alot of offenders become repeat offenders because of society, namely this employer. Alot of people that do have felonies are normally drug related, one thing is for certain you can overcome being an active user, but you can't overcome being ugly and stupid. There are so many felons that do want to change but it is people like this employer that make it hard. My hat goes off to the "good person". Just like trying a child as an adult, the day he turns 18 they kick him out of the juvinile facility and out of school, place him with adults and not only does he have a felony on his record but he has no diploma. How is that rehabilitation?
Comment: #71
Posted by: kajcbch@yahoo.com
Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:21 PM
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