Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1-
You were wrong to give him back anything. 120$/day for ten months adds up to more than 36,000$. If he never paid you a cent, then the 21,000$ did not even cover what he owed you. It was not a gift, it was a partial payment, and a late one at that. Don't give him "back" another cent.

I strongly suggest you document absolutely everything and get witnesses as often as you can. The minute he passes, whatever heirs he has will swoop down like vultures to rake in the loot. If the government is the one getting his estate because he has no heirs, then it's even worse.

You mention this has been going on for ten months. Since he hasn't paid you a dine (except for the "gift") and you've not only been running on empty all this time, but fronted him money about this and that, I assume you have means. I suggest you start shopping for a lawyer, because you'll need one. Whoever it is you have to fight over this, I sure hope you have this "agreement" on paper somewhere, because if not, I can hear Judge Judy from here.

LW3-
Hey - a rose is a rose by any other name, but I guess this goes both ways and a dog and a woman can both be Theresas!

LW1 - let's see. John has gotten 10 months worth of service from you for about $7000 instead of the $36,000 or so he promised you. I see nothing in this letter that even hints that you've asked him for this money or told him that he's supposed to pay you what he promised. Why would you think this will ever change? Why didn't you bring this up within the first month when it was clear John wasn't paying you? If you want any money, you have to tell John that, not the Annie's. You seem to have decided that you'll continue helping him even if he doesn't pay you, so you probably have no leverage at all to get him to pay you.
LW2 - since you are meeting with salespeople, I assume they are trying to get your business. Suggest you tell their bosses that you won't do business with people who treat you like this. It's unprofessional and disturbing. Many salespeople work on commission and losing a client will get their attention.

LW: I don't know what kind of agreement you have with John. Is it in email? Only verbal? At any rate, you need to be documenting EVERYTHING right now and yes, the Annies are correct, see a lawyer. Your letter sounds to me like you were hoping to be left something in the will, or else you would have already asked for some kind of financial compensation for your services (not to mention the relocation costs?)

LW2: Oh for goodness sakes! You're this old and you don't know how to handle this type of question? Funny! My answer to that type of question from a coworker would be "a wire and you're being recorded" or maybe "a chastity belt" or even "a colt 45 that I use to change roosters to hens in one shot (credit: Dolly Parton in 9 to 5)".

If you're that successful at business you shouldn't need to write the Annies for how to deal with this..... well, thank you for putting me to sleep laughing at how silly that letter was!

LW2 wrote, "Please tell them this question will put an end to any potential relationship." WTF?? Tell them yourself! Tell them, "You are the dumbest little troll I've ever met. First thing tomorrow morning, I'm going to call your boss and tell him/her that you have the manners of a drunken frat boy and shouldn't be left without adult supervision. Sweet dreams!" Whether you're in the office or on the road, sexual harassment is sexual harassment.
LW1: You and your husband are either wealthy and bored or dumb as rocks. You work for 10 months without payment, and then, when he finally gives you a fraction of what he owes you (it's not a gift, BTW), you give it back? If you can afford to work as unpaid servants and choose to do so out of kindness, good for you, but in that case you might as well forget about the money. If you can't, get a lawyer, and don't give back another dime.

LW1, talk to a lawyer NOW and get your position in writing in a legal document. Stop giving "John" his money back. He's abusive and irrational. He may not be in his right mind, but neither physical nor mental illness justifies being nasty, cantankerous, and abusive. I understand that you have felt sympathetic, but as sad as it may feel to do so, it's time to stop "helping" him on any personal level that involves your time, money or attention, because by doing so, you are damaging yourselves.


LW2, you don't have to be reasonable with the jerks who call to ask what you're wearing. My advice would be to not respond in any way. Just set down the phone, and let them keep blustering to themselves. Go in another room and watch TV or something, and just leave the phone off the hook. Eventually they'll get embarrassed, realize they're talking to themselves, and hang up. And they will get the message.


LW3 - love it, very funny.

LW1 – Is your husband a physical therapist? You say that he agreed to leave his job (temporary leave of absence?) to move (with you) from Alaska to Hawaii. This arrangement seems to be based on emotions by both parties, (no legal documents prepared to protect either party). The shock of a terminal diagnosis determined for John; and, your husband, with the knowledge and expertise to assist his friend in his time of need.

It's a shame that this deplorable illness is superseded by the distribution of funds for services. Do you really think John gives a damn about the money? He seems to want to hold onto the only thing that (in his mind) he has any control over. Imagine losing control of your body bit by bit, knowing that today is the best it is ever going to be, tomorrow… best not to think about.

You and your husband went into this arrangement knowing full well what the outcome would be, but I don't think you were considering John's feelings about his own demise, or how he would react to it.

You have had a year helping out a friend, in a short time you will go back to Alaska knowing that you did good for your friend, and your husband will be able to get back to work, hopefully with a good feeling in his heart.

IMHO you won't feel great hiring a lawyer, and I honestly (no, I'm not a lawyer) don't believe you have hope of winning a lawsuit with no contract, and for some unknown reason you returned $12,000; it would look like a loan John made out to you, not the other way around. Perhaps for the free lodgings and use of a car for a year – do you really want to go there? Think this through before you and your husband do something that you will regret for the rest of your lives.

LW1:
Wait, what? Why would you give back money when it was already way less than what you're owed and he has plenty? This makes no sense. And, doing any kind of business with friends without anything in writing is just plain nuts. When I have loaned friends money in the past, they always sign a contract - if they refuse because "it's just between friends, that's silly", then goodbye. They might not pay for any number of reasons, not all of them being evil (e.g. they may become ill and not be mentally capable of repaying, just like in this example). And complaining about $120 a day for full time caregiving (by 2 people)? And he's not even paying that, and you guys go along with it...? But... I... ??

But it's probably to late to get him to sign something now, so the Annie's are right - talk to a lawyer - yesterday.

LW2:
Why is it germain that they are short, balding, etc? If they were tall with a full head of hair, then it might more acceptable to you?

LW3:
That letter rang a bell, wish I'd sent it in before "Theresa". My family had a dog named Frieda, which we figured was pretty safe that there weren't a lot of people with that name. At a party at our house, Frieda got out and ran into the backyard with the guests, and my Mom yelled "Frieda! Get in here RIGHT NOW!". So Frieda Smith turned to my Mom and said "Excuse me. Are you trying to request that I come inside?"

LW1 - Others here have given great advice.

LW2 - And if one of those men happened to read your letter, I guarantee you they would not think they were one of those men. That letter was for "other men." I cannot tell you how many times I have met someone (not just men...women, too) who thinks that everybody wants them. I like sarah morrow's idea of simply putting the phone down and walking away.

LW1 - There is something wrong with this whole situation, and it seems like either the LW or the Annies have left something out. Why would the LW wait month, let alone a year, without the promised payment? Then after a partial payment (NOT a gift) of $21,000 after all that time, they give some of it BACK? And after all that, instead of discussing it with John or consulting an attorney, they write to an advice columnist?? None of this makes sense, and apparently there's much more to the situation than we're aware of.

LW 1 - I agree with Lise, nanchan and other posters as for contacting a lawyer. And, why would you wait this long for money due to you? And the thing is, is that as for money due to you, that is your word against his. The $120. a day should have been in writing as you would have proof. A verbal agreement means nothing, again, this would be your word against his. He could say that he didn't agree to such a thing. John is in NO condition to fight back as he's fighting for his life and it's running out. Hopefully, there are no family members on his side as they'll fight this all the way. In the end, you come out penniless.

i, too, would recommend that you document everything from now till the end.


I had a SIL who passed away in Oct. 2000 from ALS, it is one horrible disease, right along with cancer and Alzheimers. You can't do a damn thing for them for it to go away, except be there for them.

Here in Germany, a verbal agreement/handshake, stands. You are held liable.

Yes, you should have submitted a bill to John the first week, as per the agreement. Now you could show him the itemized accumulated bill and demand payment immediately or you will leave for good. Bring the lawyer to back you up, and remind John that the need to hire a lawyer also goes on John's account.The fear of being alone my be enough for him to "remember" the original agreement.You left your job and home for him, and this is the way he thanks you?

LW1--"While he was in the hospital, John gifted us with $21,000 for a piece of land he sold. Now that he is home, he says he was too generous and wants the money back." Financially wealthy people don't get that way by making generous gifts. Wealthy people tend to be tighter than the bark on a tree! It's possible that when your good friend was in hospital, he may have thought he wasn't going to make it. He made the generous gift as a show of his gratitude to you and your husband. Once home, he realized what he did, and then all his stingy penny-pinching tendencies kicked in. He regretted the gift and rudely asked for the money back. While irritating, it's definitely not a form of abuse; in fact, it's irrelevant. You and your husband are either taking care of your friend out of the goodness of your heart, or you're hanging around in the hopes of being rewarded generously for your efforts. Which is it? If it's the former, then talk to your friend about his failure to honor the original agreement for $120 per day. Get something in writing and have the funds direct-deposited. Deduct any back-pay from the $21,000 he gave you and then return the rest. Then, I'd reflect on why you and your husband really gave up your own lives only to devote them entirely to the care of your ill friend. Then act accordingly.

LW2--"After our business dinner, he will give me a call late at night and ask, "What are you wearing?"" To which you respond in your sexiest voice..."a wire and your boss's business card." Then you hang up and forget about doing business with the loser.

LW2 - I'm confused about this. I'm a reasonably attractive woman in my late 20s. I travel for business frequently too and frequently meet clients for dinner or lunch. But no client has ever done anything like you describe. It's possible it's different industries, but if this really is happening to you all the time, you might want to examine the common denominator - you. I wonder if maybe you're being too flirty with your clients and they're misconstruing your meaning?

Um, what does the man's physical appearance have to do with inappropriate business talk? So if he was tall, fit and handsome, with a full head of hair, then he would somehow be more deserving of inappropriately propositioning you? Both the LW's statement about the physical appearance of these men and the Annies' response about being "desperate" implies that the person's appearance here is somehow relevant. They have taken the issue beyond someone behaving inappropriately during a business transaction and implied that ugly people are to be scorned and should "know their place." Nice!

But I agree with Frank. I have been on probably about 200 such business meetings and never--not even once--have I had a man call me afterwards and ask such a question, or anything similar. If this happens to you on a regular basis, you may want to think about what vibes you're giving out during that business dinner, and what kind of "business attire" you're wearing during the meeting. You may be dressing too casually for a business meeting. And that makes me wonder--just how are these men getting your phone number to call you late at night in the first place? Why would they even know what hotel you're staying at, or the room number? Or your home phone number? If you have a business cell number you have to give out, why not turn it off at 9:00 pm?

LW1: I wonder if John has always been mean and cankerous. He knew he could manipulate the LWs into caring for him, because they have kind hearts. I mean, they probably didn't ride him about the money, because he's sick and they didn't want to upset him. They probably gave him the $12,000 back because, again, they didn't want to upset him. They're kind hearted... or stupid. Either way, they need to start protecting themselves today.
LW2: Maybe I'm just crabby.. but what a stupid letter. I seriously doubt the men who act that way are going to recognize themselves in this letter. Also, “Please tell them this question will put an end to any potential relationship.” Business relationship? Because a man who asks you “What are you wearing?” isn't going to be too interested in any kind of relationship…

LW1: Definitely should have gotten the arrangement in writing to begin with -- if you have any paper trail (or e-mail trail), make sure you print it out, keep it safe, and get thee to a lawyer. Maybe John is just having a rough patch, and soon he'll be in his right mind again, but you can't guarantee this will happen -- you need to protect yourselves, even if you decide to continue caring for him.

LW2: You know, this letter makes me wonder what the Annies are wearing while they answer their letters... it also makes me wonder if perhaps the LW is exaggerating the situation to give herself an ego boost. Here's what mature, reasonable adults do when someone hits on them and they aren't interested: "No, thank you, I'm not interested". It's really not that difficult at all, and why you are making such a big deal out of this is the real issue.

LW3: You know, it's probably a good thing we don't know the real name of the original LW of this silly question, because I'd be tempted to name every single pet I have in the future after that person. Dogs, cats, goldfish, hamsters... I'd be willing to start a home menagerie of animals, all with the same name, just because this is a ridiculous thing for someone to get upset about.

Re: Jane

I agree with you and Frank in that I have never had a business associate ask that type of question. Especially in the last 20 years, most men are too afraid of sexual harrassment lawsuits to talk like that to a woman.

Agree also that she should retake a look at her wardrobe choices and how she communicates (body language). And where does she conduct these business meetings? Over martinis?

At any rate, it's still hilarious to me that any woman could reach the age of 15 without having the skills to throw ice water on a hot man, but when you hit your 60s? FUNNY!

LW1 - I just googled "Attorneys Hawaii" and there are thousands of them. Call one.


LW2 - For some reason you're just a short-bald-fat-old-man-magnet. Maybe they figure you're the best they can get. In the meantime the answer to your question is "Who knows? Just hang up". Write back when a young, tall, dark and handsome man bothers you and I'll have some real good answers for you.


LW3 - If I ever have a son I'm naming him Spot and my daughter will be Snowball. That'll fuck people up good.

Re: Frank - Get with it Frank. I think it's time you learned the truth. Reasonably attractive women in their early 60's are now HOT. Oh yeah. They are the new 20's. Sorry but you'll have to wait 40 years before old, short, bald men start calling you. I myself am sitting my the phone waiting. Guess what I'm wearing.... :-)

I'm not sure where "goodness of their hearts" comes in when you're being offered free room and board in Hawaii and $120 a day. The problem, as everyone has pointed out, is that these people tried to smudge the friendship/business lines by not getting the agreement in writing. That's what lawyers are for. "We will continue to help" - after not being paid and being railed at to give the money back? It's pretty clear they're either getting something out of it now or feel sure of getting something out of it when he dies. But they still need to see a lawyer.

"Short, older, heavyset, balding guy" - Steve C, I think you missed the point of her complaint. She says that a man who is clearly NOT physically attractive is behaving as if he believes he IS - not that either one would make his behavior acceptable. And maybe he knows her number because they're staying in the same hotel for a convention. Either way, a terse response that she's wearing his business card and will call his boss in the morning would be my first reaction.

Ugh. I knew it wouldn't be long before a few posters turned it around and made the inappropriate behaviour LW2 has been experiencing as her fault. How is it her responsibility to not get hit on? There is such a double standard for women. We must look pretty, be groomed, dress nice, be thin etc or we are violently denigrated. (I can't recall names, but I remember one female politician who was basically accused of being a lesbian because she didn't fit the classically pretty standards. If someone doesn't like a women, her looks/sexuality are usually the first things attacked) On the other hand, if a man is inappropriate to her, she is TOO sexy or dressed unprofessionally. Either way, it's her fault.

So the message is: Be attractive! Be sexy! But not too much, because then you're an inappropriate trollop asking to get hit on, or, worse case scenario, raped. UTTER BULLSHIT.

Although, I do agree. A grown woman should just be able to tell them where to go and that be the end of it. She needs to grow a backbone and put a stop to this.

LW1-something is off about this letter. Friends move across country to take for a dying friend? Quit their job? And let it go on for this long without pay? This can't be the whole story. While I don't doubt that John is depressed as a result of his illness, ALS does not affect mental capability. That's what makes it so horrible. You have a fully functioning, normal brain, while your body slowly deteriorates and you lose control of all basic functions. It's a cruel, cruel, way to go.

@Frank and Jane - I believe LW2, this sort of thing has happened to me on several occasions. I don't dress provocatively and I am very professional in both my attire and my mannerisms. The only thing that I think people can construe as misleading - if they want to - is that I smile a lot. Not in a flirtatious way - I smile at everyone. Still, at one job I happened to be sitting at my desk in my office when a courier who worked for the company walked by. I had just finished eating my lunch and was applying lipstick. He stopped in my office and asked me what was th flavor of my lipstick and could he lick it to find out. This man was old enough to be my father. I was so disgusted that I reported the incident to my manager - also a man. He laughed and said, "well what flavor was it?". I reported the incident to HR and both apologized to me.

On another occasion, I was working an exhibit at a large conference. Some creepy guy - a security guard no less, kept coming by the both to talk to me. The exhibit hall closed for lunch, but because we had very expensive equipment in our booth, I stayed in the hall alone and took my lunch after the break when someone else could man the both. The guy refused to leave me alone and a company executive (a man) was so disturbed by him that he called the head of security and demanded that the guard leave me alone.

Most recently, a vendor with whom my team works closely would not stop flirting with me. He kept calling me, "baby", "honey", "sweety" and "pretty". When I am on call, I need to be available 24/7 and so does this vendor. when I would call him in the middle of the night regarding an issue that needed immediate attention, he acted as if I was his girlfriend calling instead of a colleague. I am the only woman on my team... he treated all of the men very professionally. Worse, he put these things in writing - via IM. I save my IM history as a matter of routine and after several chats with him where I contacted him for business and he started flirting after I repeatedly asked him not to do so - I emailed my Director and let him know what was going on, attaching the IM correspondences. He contacted this person's manager and the flirting stopped immediately.

I have many more examples of men treating me inappropriately in professional settings. I have no delusions that this is because I am so beautifully irrisistible that they can't help themselves. The reason some men behave this way is because they think they can and by and large they get away with it. LW2 makes no mention of reporting these incidents to her superiors - most likely because she is afraid that they will blame her just as some people BTL have done. Worse, in a male dominated field - such as the LW's and mine - women often do not feel as respected for their knowledge and abilities (I have never had a personal relationship with a superior but I have had a few guys insinuate that I slept my way to a promotion when I surpassed them), which makes it twice as hard to admit that someone who should respect you as a peer just treated you like the ho at the corner.

Cut the LW some slack. Instead of accusations, she needs to be encouraged to take the appropriate action to let these people who treat her so demeaningly know that this is not OK under any circumstances.

@Steve C & Jenna
The reason the comment about appearance is relevant is because someone young, handsome and sexy might have reasons to think s/he has a chance of tempting a faithful partner into a one-night stand affair. But a "short, older, heavyset, balding guy"? What makes him think he's so irresistible? They ought to know better than think they're God's gift to women no matter what. The woman is in her early sixties. "Older" will mean at least 70.

Let's turn the tables, shall we? If it was a man in that position, evolving in a sphere where it is mostly women... A young, drop dead gorgeous woman will have all the reasons to believe that her beauty alone can be enough to sway a usually faithful man. But if "once in a while" he got propositioned by women who are repeatedly older, obese, with a few warts and short gray hair, wouldn't you think that they ought to know better than think they have a chance? Especially since it's been made clear that the object of their fancy is happily married and not interested?

This is not going to happen of course, as women are usually acutely aware of their appearance and age, while men often are not. And that is because we are geared, by both genes and socialisation, to consider beauty in women and "other things" in men. Which is likely why these men still think they stand a chance.

@Gwen
Here too, a verbal agreement will stand - if you can prove it. Considering the distance that used to separate them, let us hope that at least some of the initial communications about them relocating were through e-mail and that some of it mentioned the promised payment. Otherwise, I don't think it looks very good for him - but a lawyer should be the one looking into that, niot the Annies or us. I understand his repuctance in dropping dead (literally) a friend he obviously cares about, but... he should carefully document everything from now on if he wants to get back at least that.

@Frank
She doesn't say it happens to her "all the time", she says "every once in a while". And yes, there ARE some fields of business where men are more crude than others, especially if there aren't many women past a secretarial position.
And if you realy are a "a reasonably attractive woman in (your) late 20s", then I respectfully suggest you change your handle.

@Jane
Just because it never happened to you doesn't mean it's the fault of the someone it does happen to. Like I told "Frank", there are fields of business that are more prone to this behaviour than others - the garment trade industry comes to mind. I know because I used to work in that, and I was propositioned, not every day, but "every once in a while". And I was wearing very correct, decent, non-revealing, non-descript secretarial garb.

And besides, there are peoiple who, for some reason, are very magnetic to the opposite sex. My sister-cousin has something about her that is very attractive to men. It doesn't matter what she wears. She could be stark naked or with a potato sack over her head, she'll still have the same effect on them and a trail of panting males at her back. It was like that when she was young enough to be cute (she was never really pretty), it's still like that now that she's 61 and blowsy. I also know a man like that, and he's almost 80 with a full head of white hair now, hardly a young stud anymore. He does nothing to attract attention, and yet women just go crazy around him.

People who attract a lot of attention are not necessarily to blame.

P.S.: They will have her phone number at the hotel because this is where the copany she works for will have told them where to reach her.

@Chris
"To which you respond in your sexiest voice..."a wire and your boss's business card".
What a hoot! Love it!

@Mike H
"it also makes me wonder if perhaps the LW is exaggerating the situation to give herself an ego boost."
You got a point there. You would think a woman her age would have learned to handle randy males by now, but then, perhaps not. We don't know how laid-back and possibly inhibited she is, or if this is a relatively new job. There is a chance she has never been exposed to this kind of aggressive behaviour before and that she's completely taken aback. I like Chris's suggestion best!

@Walkie
Couldn't agree with you more on both counts.

And Rick, even though I think you're the funniest guy on the board, watch the mouth please. Do you really want to hear Lise complain again that we only jum[p on the "F" word when SHE does it but no one else?

Thanks for the story, Sharnee. Sounds exactly right. Guys are just plain not wired to accurately know whether or not they're attractive to women - almost all of them seem to think they are. My husband told me most guys' silent mantra is "She's looking at me - she must want me." Funny to us, but franky, ick.

Speaking of dog and people names, I am the proud President of the BNM Club (Bitches Names Maggie). Really - everyone I know knows SOMEONE who has had a dog named Maggie. Love it.

Re: Lise
I didn't make a comment on LW2. Not a big deal, just don't want to take credit for something I didn't write ;)

The short, old, fat, balding guys probably hit up everything in a skirt on the off chance that one in a million will go for it. It's probably all the chance they have if they are such crude people.

LW2: Lead with your professional foot. If you must take business calls after a certain hour, answer the phone in a professional tone, "This is Amazed with XYZ company. How can I help you?" If that doesn't deter them, say, "You must have me confused with your wife. Good night." And hang up. If they call back, let it go to voice mail.
Now, as a rule of safety, never tell these men where you are staying. That's just common sense. Even if you think you can trust them, you never know who is eavesdropping. There are criminals out there that prey on tourists. If you are pressed for where you are staying, give a general location. "Oh, I'm down town/ near the interstate/ on the west side of town."
Now, stop saying that you're happily married. They clearly don't believe it. Keep the conversations on neutral topics such as business, sports and pop culture. Allow your husband to naturally come up in off topic conversation, "Oh, I root for the Jets but hubby really loves the Patriots!" That says more than you saying, "I am happily married," it says, "I am happily married and my husband is a real guy who has preferences just like any other real guy. You may empathize with him."

Re: Walkie

Point taken. However.....

There is a certain amount of personal responsibility that a person has to appear professional when representing a business . To go outside of the "rules" of behavior and dress code hurts the business image.

Case in point (this is a true story) years ago, I had a temporary receptionist who was working in my building. This was back when we had a strong employment market and finding an experienced receptionist was proving hard to do, so we hired an inexperienced woman in her 40s to come work the front desk through a temp agency (no interview). The first day she showed up wearing a chiffon evening gown, and let's just say she wasn't wearing appropriate undergarments and things were on "display". Every man in the office was at that desk all day long. NO work got done. Customers were making comments...it was bad.

The head of HR asked me to talk to her that evening on the condition that if she showed up the next day inappropriately attired, she would be let go. Talking to that woman was one of the saddest conversations I've ever had. She had just gone through a divorce after being a stay home mom for 20 years. Her husband had been a high level executive, but she had gotten nothing in the divorce. Because she had never worked, she wore a dress that she would have worn to a company party, it was the only way she thought she should dress for a company. I told her it was ok to show up in jeans and a nice shirt (we work in high tech and the dress code is extremely casual) the next day and that it was ok. However, while I was having this conversation with the temp, the head of HR contacted the agency to complain and because the agency didn't want to lose the account, they fired the woman and I never saw her again (sad story).

Another one: I had a young woman intern working on my team (95% male all under 35) who showed up in cropped shirts, no bra, and was setting up computers (bending over, letting it all hang out). The men on the team, again, were all suddenly having computer issues that required this young lady to rebuild their machines. Because I was the only other woman on the team again, I was chosen to speak to this girl, who was mortified. The next day she came into my office appropriately dressed and shut the door. She told me she knew it had been tough on me to have the conversation with her (thank you, yes, it was one of the most uncomfortable conversations I've had to have on the job) and she thanked me for the feedback.

MY point, Walkie? I agree with you that you can't blame other people's actions on how someone is dressed (that whole "she was asking for it.. look at how she was dressed!" thing has never washed with me). Two WRONGS do not make a right. Like the poster yesterday who went ballistic when somebody took her parking space, someone acting or dressing poorly does not mean that you have to take the bait and act like a jerk.

HOWEVER, when you are representing a BUSINESS (which is what the LW was doing) you have an obligation to present yourself in a professional manner. When you DON"T, people assume that you aren't as serious about your job as you probably are. And then they make assumptions about what you will do. Especially if they think you do it to make "the sale".

The fact that this situation has happened to the LW more than once means she needs to take a look at her own behavior to see if she is somehow giving off the wrong signals. Simple.

My dog's name is Maggie. I've also had a Cindy Lou.

My favorite pet name is Data's cat on Star Trek, he named it Spot.

re LW2 - Oh how judgemental people can be when they have never experienced something for themselves. I would assume that a person who has reached the age of 60, works in a professional environment, and travels often has received a stamp of approval regarding her level of professionalism - including dress and grooming from her employer. Perhaps the person who believes that people are only crude to those who dress lasciviously or behave flirtatiously think this way because it is an easier pill to swallow than to reflect on the fact that it is possible that they themselves are never hit on personally because they are so unattractive either in physical appearance, personality, or both, that no one would ever consider touching them with a ten foot pole. Just saying.

@Maggie Lawrence - Funny!

I don't get why LW2 hasn't simply answered "Sir, that's highly inappropriate and I expect this to never happen again." this tells the man straight up that he crossed a line (then he might even recognize himself in the letter) and puts him on warning that his behavior wion't be tolerated, and could even be reported as sexual harassment. Laws and company regulations against sexual harassment are not for company employees only - the also include vendors.
Women really need to stop being such wussies about putting a stop to unacceptable behavior. Frankly, it may not be that this woman has sent out flirtatious or available signals, but the man read her correctly as an easy target, so why the hell not take a chance?

RE: LW2
I actually don't think this letter can be taken all that seriously. While I can believe that LW2 has been hit on or otherwise approached inappropriately by business contacts, I don't for a moment believe that they've all used the "what are you wearing" line. I'll bet that happened -- IF it happened -- once. And then perhaps on a couple of other occasions she has been propositioned or otherwise approached inappropriately by a couple of other business contacts. But she isn't asking about how to deal with "inappropriate advances" -- she specifically asks about this one, specific line and makes a point of saying how ridiculous this line is, etc. The fact that she is somehow really stuck on this one, specific line is actually kind of odd, when you think about it. I mean, would she have been OK with it if they had simply used some other line?
This is not to say that I don't think the bigger issue -- sexual harassment -- isn't important and worthy of the serious discussion that has been going on here at the BTL. It absolutely is. But oddly enough, that's not the LW's question. In fact, she's not even asking "how do I deal with this," -- she's imploring the Annies to tell men that this line is stupid. Again, she's not begging the Annies to tell men that this type of behavior, regardless of which line they use, is inappropriate -- she's asking the Annies to tell men that this specific line is stupid and is unlikely to work. Um...whatever.

As for which came first -- inappropriate dress or behavior on the part of the woman or inappropriate advances on the part of the man... I've seen it happen both ways. I've seen women wear the most ridiculous inappropriate outfits to work and then hit on them, and I've seen women wear completely conservative, appropriate outfits, and men hit on them, too. A man who is truly professional and has real integrity will not make unprofessional, inappropriate advances on a woman in the workplace, regardless of what she is wearing. A man who is a pig will make inappropriate advances on a woman in the workplace, regardless of what she is wearing. It's the men who are somewhere in between who are moved (or not moved) by what the woman is wearing.

While I am ALWAYS appalled by the "she was asking for it" defense where an actual rape or attack has occurred, I am frequently frustrated when a woman dresses "a certain way" and then is all shocked and amazed when men hit on her. So, yeah, a man should still act appropriately and professionally regardless of what a woman is wearing -- a woman shouldn't have to wear a burka to work -- but women also need to be aware of the signals they are sending, intentionally or unintentionally.

Re: Jenna

I meant Jane - wrong J. Sorry - my bad. Thank you for not taking offense!

@Maggie
If you really minded about HIS language, then there would be no need to mention me. Right, now, you wanna know how you just sounded? Like you're saying to Rick, "Look, I don't mind you using it, but if I don't at least pretent to address it, then Lise will complain about the double standard again..."

And you don't realise that this is coming across quite clearly, do you?

Re: Lisa

"But women also need to be aware of the signals they are sending, intentionally or unintentionally."
I'm just as appalled as you when a woman (un)dresses like the Whore of Babylon and then complains that all she attracts are cads... but keep in mind there are plenty of people out there who read signals the way they want to and only see and hear what they wish to, even if it means distorting everything.

As I have mentioned before, recent studies have illustrated that men and women can have opposite interpretations of the signals sent by the other gender. In other words, what is perceived is the opposite of what is actually meant and sent. "Unintentionally" becomes impossible to predict in a case like that. Personally, I've seen pretty extreme examples of things being twisted into an entire new meaning.

@Lisa - Agreed with your post in totality. My initial reaction when I read the letter was that LW2 seemed concerned more about the pick up line itself and the appearance of the pick up artists, rather than the fact that these creeps are calling her hotel room in the middle of the night. I had intended to post to that affect when I got side-tracked after reading all the nasty little swipes at the LW that were ridiculously sexist.

I have also seen women dress inappropriately for work and other situations. I have often wondered how a woman can wear pants with words strategically placed across her backside, then turn around and complain that men are staring at her booty. That falls under a big, fat duh. But quite honestly, I have seen people do this in non-professional positions - but never I have I seen anyone promoted to a professional role - especially one that is highly visible where they are representing their companies- dress this way. Women who reach this level in their careers tend to realize that professional appearance is part of the overall package that they need to present in order to succeed.

I also take umbrage with the thought the a woman who has presumably been a professional for quite a while, given her age, is being schooled by other women on proper business attire. Give me a break. People who are looking for a signal when there are none, will "misread" intent. As you stated, a pig is a pig will behave as such indescriminately. As Kristen stated (and as I also noted), the LW needs to stand up for herself and demonstrate that she will not tolerate such treatment. There is no call to presume that she is doing something wrong because a few horn dogs took liberties that they should not. Her mistake (we assume, because she did not give an indication of her response to them), was in not putting them in their place immediately.

Lise - " but keep in mind there are plenty of people out there who read signals the way they want to and only see and hear what they wish to, even if it means distorting everything."
You're exactly right. I don't like seeing the f-bomb thrown around on this board no matter who does it, but if you get jumped on the next time you use it, it'll be "how come nobody said anything about it when Rick did it?" So I'm saying something. "And you don't realise that this is coming across quite clearly, do you?"

Lisa, Maggie - Please don't fight over me. I'm fine deciding what language I use and when I use it. We're all grown-ups.

Re: sharnee

OR maybe some of us act like LADIES and people treat us as such..... maybe a new concept for you?

Re: sharnee

OR maybe some of us act like LADIES and people treat us as such..... maybe a new concept for you?

Re: sharnee

OR maybe some of us act like LADIES and people treat us as such..... maybe a new concept for you?

@nanchan. Sure, everyone has the responsibility to dress appropriately for work. And different jobs have different standards. What I find disturbing is that people AUTOMATICALLY jumped to the conclusion that she was dressing incorrectly. And you sort of prove my point. While the examples you cited were extreme, a woman was fired, no second chance given, because of her attire. I"m very doubtful that that happens to as many men.

@Lisa-please enlighten me as to what your idea of a "certain way" is, as well as these signals you speak of. I suspect *your* certain way and *my* certain way are different. Why can't I hold you to my standard instead of vice versa? And if I'm unintentionally sending signals, how is that my fault?

When when when are going to put responsibility where it belongs-on the people that choose to make assumptions about people based on appearance?! A middle Eastern country (I can't remember which) tried to enact a law that would punish women for "seductive eyes". These notions of unintentional signals/dress/behaviour are on the same spectrum.

As Lise and Sharnee point out very well, this is a very VERY slippery slope. As soon as we give others the power to blame us for *their* interpretation of our dress, actions, of behaviour, we begin living in a dangerous world.

Interesting case in Canada. Judge Dewar presided on a rape case and made very inappropriate comments. The rape victim was drinking, wearing make up, heels, and a skirt, thus promoting a willingness to party and that the rapist was merely a clumsy Don Juan. I don't know about you, but this mentality to TERRIFYING. I wear make up everyday. Heels every weekend with dresses or skirts, and I also like to have a few drinks. Am I asking for rape? Sending unintentional signals? Somehow immoral? Undeserving of respect? WHAT?

FYI-I don't just complain. I sent a letter complaining about Judge Dewar, and got two responses from the court system. They slapped his wrist. AWESOME.

@Lise B -- yup, that's why I made a point of saying that a pig will act like a pig regardless of what the woman is wearing.

@Rick -- I love ya, buddy, but I wasn't the one who was fighting over you. But I'm pretty sure that was just a typo on your part. Still, I'm thinking about being highly offended over it, anyway.

Re: LW2, I'm for one a little disconcerted BTL we have both "don't objectify women!" talk and THEN going on to rail about "short, dumpy, balding men who ought to know they don't have a chance in hell of getting an attractive woman".

Smells like a double-standard to me!

Here's the thing: everyone's attractive to someone. If you are going to complain about LW2 and other professional women being judged by their looks, then don't start judging the men in LW2's professional life by *their* looks. It's completely hypocritical.

If she is a mature, professional, married woman, then she ought to be able to handle this firmly and directly, and then LET IT GO. Going on some tear to trash these men as deluded because she's SO out of their league is NOT exactly taking the high road here.

Single people get hit on. Married people get hit on. Young people get hit on, middle-aged people get hit on, old people get hit on. Executives get hit on, union workers get hit on. Gay people get hit on, straight people get hit on.

It happens.

Now, if these guys aren't taking no for an answer -- NOT the situation described in her letter, by the way -- then she needs to take some other action. But if it happens once, you shut the guy down, and move on.

If a LOT of different guys are doing this to her, then she's in a weird industry, or she's REALLY hot for her age, or she's dressing or acting more provocatively than she realizes or admits.

BUT NOTE -- she says "Every once in a while" -- so it's not all that frequent.

" invariably a short, older, heavyset, balding guy" -- so she is more upset about their looks than anything else. Seems pretty shallow to me.

COMMENTERS, BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER, ask yourselves this: Would she have written this letter AT ALL if the guys hitting on her were handsome?

Based on her own words, I think not, and that really takes a lot of the wind out of the sails of outrage, as far as I'm concerned. And maybe, when all is said and done, we ought to think about whether or not she's the shallow one in this scenario.

@Walkie -- it's certainly possible that you and I would define what is appropriate attire in a professional setting differently, but I really don't think we're as far apart on this issue as you think. I don't care if a woman wears a string bikini to a bar and has a few drinks -- while that strikes ME as inappropriate, it's still no excuse for a man to rape her, and it's still no excuse for a man to paw at her. BUT, if she does walk into a bar wearing a string bikini, even if she is stone-cold sober and doesn't order anything from the bar, she better not complain when men show her a LOT of interest. As one poster (I believe it was sharnee) noted, if a person (male or female) wears something with words or a logo or something else specifically designed to call attention placed on his/her butt, s/he shouldn't be complaining that "everyone was looking at my butt!"

I hope, anyway, that we can agree that different environments, and specifically different WORK environments, require different styles of dressing. What is appropriate at the bar, for example, likely is not appropriate for church. What is appropriate for a night out clubbing is almost certainly not appropriate at work (unless, of course, you work at a nightclub). This is why many offices do, in fact, have dress codes. Sadly, a person (again, male or female -- but I'll bet this is more common for a female) can dress completely up to the dress code and still be accosted by someone else, but I hope we can agree that the person who does dress appropriate is at least SOMEWHAT LESS LIKELY to have that happen. Because again, some people are pigs and will be pigs no matter what, just as some people have such integrity that they will act appropriately no matter what -- it's those folks in the middle, who might be swayed one way or the other based on how you are dressed.

Yes, the Canadian case you cite is horrifying. Assuming the woman said no, no means no, regardless of what she was wearing or drinking. And beyond that, cases where the woman is too drunk to even say no, much less fight a man off -- that is still rape, too, because if she's too drunk to say no, she is also too drunk to consent.

So, yes, the whole "unintended signals" thing can be a slippery slope, so I completely understand what you are saying and even agree with it. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if you and I actually would agree on what is appropriate to wear to the office and what isn't. I live in an area with a very warm climate all year 'round, and it tends to be anything but conservative, so there's a whole lot of skin being shown pretty much everywhere, home, work, bars, church, you name it. You can show a lot of skin and still be perfectly appropriate, in my book, but you do have to be careful about how you do it. I have seen women in relatively skimpy sundresses at church who manage to pull it off, and then I have seen women in some eye-popping outfits at work that have made me wonder what their real "profession" is.

What's difficult (and, yes, scary) about this is...who writes the rules? Who sets the standards?

It's sort of like the judge who, when struggling to define obscenity/porn said, "I know it when I see it." But, shown the same thing as the judge, would you and I also agree?

Bitey Fish is not surprised that Nanchan's business associates find her unappetizing.

And Bitey Fish feels sure that Sharnee has a beautiful smile.

@Nanchan - I can only go by how you post, and there is nothing ladylike about that. In fact, based solely on your posts, there is nothing pretty about your personality in the least. You need to borrow someone's mirror.

LW2: I absolutely agree with Mike on this. The fact that she states these men are "unattractive" indicates to me that if it were a handsome man, she would not even be writing about this!
Perhaps the LW has a slight right to be offended but she is more offended that these men are unattractive and delusional. I honestly feel this to be such a minimal issue that I will leave it at that.
LWi - I find this to be a very unfortunate situation. This couple clearly cares about their friend. I am sure that the LW's husband is capable of earning more than what was agreed upon. It is a lot of work to care for the ill. It is often a day in, day out job. I pray that they got this contract in some form of writing and also that the friend will wise up to the dedication these people have given to him.

@Bitey Fish - Thank you! I am smile at you right now, with all of my teeth!

Re: nanchan
I always liked Dolly Parton's remark but before her I would get (my early days of nursing but OUTSIDE OF WORK) OH NURSE, I got this problem in my pants and it is etc.......... CAN YOU FIX IT? Absolutely. Then grab a knife as you walk towards the A$$-0 and say total amputation. Then point out to some other A$$ standing there and tell him YOU ARE ASSISTING ME.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: sharnee ~~ Bitey Fish is smiling at you, too. <:-D))))>-<

@Lisa-yes, I also think we probably agree pretty closely on what's acceptable and why this whole issue is complex and grey-which, I think, is why it's so important to be vigilant against these nebulous "standards". Again, what bothers me most is the assumption that LW was dressed inappropriately, flirting, looking for an ego boost etc, instead of taking the men to task about their behaviour.

As far as that saying on indecency "I know it when I see it." I contend that is also very dangerous reasoning. If you can't articulate what the problem is, it seems to me you are operating on feeling and your own personal sense of acceptable, which should never be used to create rules and laws for others.

I also HATE "well, this never happened to ME, so she *must* have done something to bring this on!" A completely illogical and belittling argument.

While I'm ranting today....any other Canadians outraged by the new Identity Screening Regulations that effectively bar trans people from boarding planes? Outrageous.

@ sharnee

In defense of nanchan, I am always impressed by her passion. Nanchan always posts from a position of the heart and from her own relevant experience. Whether or not that comes off as offensive to you is irrelevant. Her heart is in the right place and she's genuinely interested in the LWs predicaments. To call her an ugly person because you happen to disagree or don't like her delivery is really very mean-spirited. Maybe it's not nanchan who needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Re: Maggie Lawrence
If you want to address anyone's F-bomb, you go right ahead. But don't drag my name into it and then pretend it's someone else's wording you mind.

Rick, this is no fight over you, this is a point made over a principle. I too am fine deciding what language I can use, and never waited for anyone's permission. Ah-ha, and this is precisely what Maggie and the rest of the posse have a huge problem with. THEY want to decide who's allowed to bite with a potty mouth and who's not. Well, I get to choose when I do, me and my 32 teeth Edda smile. CHOMP!

LW1: Don't be so sure that John only has a short while to live. Your husband certainly does have an abundance of patience and kindness. If you need additional income, both of you should cut back your unpaid hours with John and take part-time work elsewhere. John can hire additional nursing help for the hours that you are not there and pay the going rate. This may help him to appreciate you and your husband's generosity. Or not. He may just be a grouchy cheapskate.

LW2: This happened to me when I was sent to Dallas for a 6-week training course. All of the students stayed in corporate apartments and we all had each other's phone numbers. This married guy would call me 3-4 times per week and say something suggestive. Then I got a break when his pregnant wife came out to visit for a weekend. What a jerk. He wasn't the only one. I told another fellow student about it and asked why some of these supposedly happily married men acted like they never got out of the house. (They'd go to bars and strip clubs every weekend.)
He said simply, "Yard dogs." I said "Yard dogs? What are yard dogs?" He said, "You let them off their leashes and they go running all over the neighborhood."

@Maggie Lawrence and Lise - sorry, no. Jane and my comments are correct. What the man looks like has no relevance, her complaint is that it is inappropriate for a business contact to call up and ask what she is wearing.
Are you saying that if the man was fabulous looking, her response should be different? Should she then say that she's wearing nothing but a smile? Her response should be exactly the same, regardless of what the man looks like, period.

@Chris - she called me ignorant a few days ago because she disagreed with my post. She just told me that I was unladylike today. She launched a merciless tirade against Lise - even writing some imaginary play making fun of her. Nanchan is often unkind and I am entirely justified in calling it like I see it. Perhaps you like her and are willing to overlook her belligerence, but I will not.

When somebody calls up Bitey Fish and says, "Ooh, Bitey, what are you wearing?" Bitey Fish says, "Bitey Fish is wearing paisley pajamas, would you like to come over and see them?" and then the caller says, "Yes, Bitey Fish, I would like to see your pajamas." And when they come to the door, Bitey Fish bites them.

Re: Lise Brouillette - Dang it. I was hoping someone was fighting OVER me. Poop! Carry on.

Thank you Chris.

RE: Mike H. Post # 46 - next to the last paragraph

You hit the nail on the head. I absolutely agree if the man or men are handsome, who every once in a while, hit on her, then no, she wouldn't be writing to the Annies, asking for their advice.

Oh, I'm in my early 60's, fairly attractive, happily married and I have these old, balding, fat men creeping me out. Sounds like she has a chip on her shoulder, sarcasim and is conceited.

I'm 60, fairly attractive, happily married, but when some man comes up to me whom I barely know, puts their arm around me, I just tell them "Don't touch the merchandise." It doesn't matter what the guy looks like.

Lw1: Even without a written agreement, in California there are no exceptions to minimum wage (Check on the Hawaiian law). It would probably be possible to put in a claim on the estate for accumulated minimum and documented expenses. I would work up statements, both at the $120/day and minimum, and calmly present to "John." He may not realize how it adds up. What you do from there is your decision.
LW2: I suspect that less "hot" guys will hit on older women because they think the older, not quite so hot woman is more desperate for attention. I'm a widowed grandmother and have been hit on by younger married guys who maybe think I'm not picky.

Lw1: Even without a written agreement, in California there are no exceptions to minimum wage (Check on the Hawaiian law). It would probably be possible to put in a claim on the estate for accumulated minimum and documented expenses. I would work up statements, both at the $120/day and minimum, and calmly present to "John." He may not realize how it adds up. What you do from there is your decision.
LW2: I suspect that less "hot" guys will hit on older women because they think the older, not quite so hot woman is more desperate for attention. I'm a widowed grandmother and have been hit on by younger married guys who maybe think I'm not picky.

Re: Walkie

I sure as hell didn't jump to that conclusion at first (see my first post). My thought at first was, what can't she handle this anyway? I mean I learned to handle that type of thing at a really early age, and the fact that she's in a position where she's representing a company at sales dinners and then gets all flipped out because some losers call her, man, my first instinct was to LAUGH!

But, Frank and Jane had a point, I agreed with them. Then, sharnee made her comment.

Sharnee: your post re: passing the other day, was IN MY OPINION ignorant. I think people who perpetuate stereotypes of any kind ARE ignorant. I am entitled to my opinion, and never got personal and called you ugly, or anything else. It certainly didn't warrant a snarky remark from you today, which by the way, reinforced my opinion of your ignorance.

Hope you all have lovely afternoons. Now, I'm off to take the bubble bath I suggested to Chelle yesterday.

@Nanchan - What a graceful and ladylike post, thank you for proving my point. As Sunny said the other day, you have self-esteem issues which is why you feel the need to be so obnoxious. Unlike her, I don't feel as much sympathy for you as I find your repulsive and shall no longer either read your posts or engage with you. Hopefully, you will get over yourself soon, lest you trip on your way to the bathtub and bump that giant head you have.

@Rick, I'll fight over you! Just tell me who to fight, and I'll... well, I'll post sternly in their general direction, I really will!

Re: Steve C

Actually I do believe her response would be exactly the same. The way I perceive it, her comment about the men's appearance was in the "and of top of everything else" category, and I agree with you perfectly that her complaint is about the nature of the men's comment and the lateness of when they were made.

@Lise, have to disagree with your comment #69.

"My problem is that every once in a while, one of these men — invariably a short, older, heavyset, balding guy — thinks he is the most attractive man alive and that I can't resist his charms. "

Everything else she says follows from that. It's pretty clear that what frosts her chapstick is that she's getting cheesy lines from men who are too unattractive (in her mind) to pull them off.

It seems her complaint is *entirely* based on the unattractiveness of the men hitting on her, or else she wouldn't have bothered to go into such detail.

Re: Mike H

Nope. Speaking for a lot of women I've seen and heard in my time, I can tell you I heard it many times said with the meaning I said. Problem is, it sometimes is said with the meaning YOU said... We can't be sure of which for sure as we're not inside her head but, given that the gist of her complaint is about the inappropiateness of the late-night, smacking-of-phone-sex question, I vote for #1.

Sharnee, I also starred in that allegedly humorous show you referred to earlier. I jut hope I get royalties when it's finally produced.

Sorry, Lise, I still disagree... she spends so much time being outraged by their looks, by the audacity they have that they THINK they are attractive, that's where her problem lies.

If it were simply the act of getting those phone calls that outraged her, she wouldn't have mentioned whether they were ugly or not. Their looks wouldn't have mattered. But in her case, the looks DO matter -- look at the emotion she puts in the lines about their looks. That's what's bothering her the most.

With regard to LW2, I just don't buy her premise. A seasoned, professional business woman who has had this experience once or twice would be smart enough to ignore late night calls. These days, professional people use cell phones which, in most cases, identify the caller. If she can determine that the call is not related to a possible family emergency, why even pick up the phone late at night? A caller with a legitimate business purpose will leave a message. I think even a drunk business associate will think twice about leaving a lewd message.

With regard to LW2, I just don't buy her story. A seasoned, professional business woman who has had this experience once or twice would be smart enough to ignore late night calls. These days, professional people use cell phones which, in most cases, identify the caller. If she can determine that the call is not from someone who has a legitimate reason to be calling late at night, why even pick up the phone? A caller with a legitimate business purpose will leave a message, and the call can be returned at an appropriate time. I think even a drunk business associate will think twice about recording a lewd message.

Sorry for the double post.

If you were professionals at what you do, you would have known how contracts worked at your work place. Any time you go in for treatment or PT or fitness, you sign an agreement, which keeps each side from suing each other.
(Question if hubby was a PT or OT.)

This was a husband/wife team who, being promised the RICHES of $125 a day, decided to help this man out with the rest of his life and also be in the winning column as the WAGE was looking nice.
I bet the old man meant $125 per WEEK at best. His nickles and dimes don't add up like they used to! And now the old guy wants wiggle room to back out of the whole deal.
When they got the money GIVEN to them when HE was in the hospital, they should have invested it immediately AND gone to a lawyer to get protected by what they would do. Of course, they never expected him to go vicious. But they earned it. And this was very much short what they would have earned staying where they were and HE having to HIRE people to help him. That would have been gone in a few months and he got over 12 months out of them.

Best this old man, having a 2nd chance to take his money with him, will try to do just that. Lawyer up, keep a diary, if he spends more than he has, you get nothing in the end. Others can fight for a share if there is any left and you best be in line first.

I would write out a game plan. This should state that due to lack of income, you will be returning to the home you left. You will help him find an agency to take over with some of the things you have done since taking care of him. That way he can leave his stuff and anger with strangers.
Play his bluff--he needs you more than you need him. There are no stars for you taking his abuse. If you stay on conditions, make sure it is signed and documented legally. YOUR LIFE IS TOO SHORT to put up with crap. Would be different if this were a family member. It is not.

Re: Mike H

Get somebody angry enough about something they're emotional about, and the insult about looms may tumble out - simply because it's obvious and a fast one. I've heard many times people railing against someone who had wronged them, calling the person "that fat slob" or "that fat bitch" (for instance), and I know for a fact that the person yelling that had no problems with overweight people... but the person they were mad at was fat. Same song, second verse.

Re: Joyce/MN
"Would be different if this were a family member."
Nope. Crap like this doesn't become acceptable because it comes from blood and kin.

In fact, we had a letter reminiscent of this a few months ago, about a young man who was taking care of his grandmother or aunt, I forget. The person with the purse strings was stingy and wanted to pay him ten cents on the dollar. We all agreed he should be paid what he was worth, and he was in no way putting up with abuse.

@Lise, sure, but so much of her own argument seems predicated on the very unattractiveness of her suitors, so I don't agree that the dynamic you suggest is in play with this particular LW.

@Carly O, good point -- another suggestion that this is quite possibly more about the LW boosting her own ego than any real problem!

Re: Mike H

Certainly she would have found it more flattering if the "suitors" were more attractive, but that doesn't mean she would have wanted to cheat on her husband more.

The way I see it, their being a "short, older, heavyset, balding guy" is put in there because it adds insult to injury - as in, "It's not enough that I'm already spoken for and that I made that clear, do they really think I'm that desperate, ON TOP of being nothing but free phone sex to them?" Triple yrrrrch.

Exactly. It would be more flattering, and therefore nothing to complain about. She's riled up because these guys aren't attractive enough to even have a chance of using that cheesy line *successfully* on a woman as hot as she says she is. ("They think they're so attractive I couldn't resist") She's insulted all right-- by their chutzpah in thinking their ugly butts have a chance at her deliciousness!

She's not the least bit riled up about the actual "being hit on", which happens only infrequently. It's the quality of the men doing the hitting that bugs her the most.

But being pestered by somebody attractive can be just as annoying. You think, "Oh great, just because he's good-looking, he thinks he's God's gift to women and can get away with anything."

Re: jar8818- Thanks for your kind words today.

@Van Wickle, sure, but then why does she mention her own (perceived) hotness as well? That would be irrelevant if she was bothered by being hit on.

She mentions it because it's the perceived discrepancy between her self-described high level of attractiveness and her perception of her suitors' low level of attractiveness that bugs her the most.

These few men, who occasionally make a pass at her, are "idiots" and "deluded" because they aren't attractive enough to make the cheesy line work with a woman as hot as LW believes she is.

Now, if George Clooney and Antonio Banderas were the ones calling her up after business meetings and asking her what she was wearing, I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be getting a letter from her at all, given the way she's describing her complaint.

@ Mike H #86

George Clooney *AND* Antonio Banderas ! ? ! Whoo-hoo. Where is this business meeting? ;-)

LW1: Huh? I'm confused. How could you not get paid for 10 months and still continue to do the work? He "gifted" you then you used the money to pay his bills? What? Are you on drugs? Your letter made absolutely no sense.

Re: Mike H

Huh-huh. It would be more flattering, but still something to complain about, especially the sex-phone bit. The only thing, it wouldn't be adding insult to injury. Trust me, I know EXACTLY how she feels.

@Mike H
P.S.: She's mentioning her "perceived" own "hotness" so that people won't think she's being delusional at her ripe old age. Again, I know EXACTLY how she feels!

@Lise, sorry, but I kinda think you're projecting too much, still. Her own perceived hotness and the suitor's ugliness are both mentioned, vehemently, because they are *essential* to her problem, not orthogonal to it.

If she were really simply disgusted by being hit on *at all*, none of the other stuff would be important and probably wouldn't even need to be mentioned. In fact, she would do more to emphasize "but I'm a MARRIED WOMAN" or "how incredibly UNPROFESSIONAL" rather than emphasizing "I"m attractive and these fools invariably aren't".

I think, based on her own language and what she emphasizes in the letter, she's insulted that these men are so far beneath her in the attractiveness scale that they are deluded into thinking she could be had with a cheesy line like that.

It's an insult to her vanity, not her marital status.

@Lise, sorry, but I kinda think you're projecting too much, still. Her own perceived hotness and the suitor's ugliness are both mentioned, vehemently, because they are *essential* to her problem, not orthogonal to it.

If she were really simply disgusted by being hit on *at all*, none of the other stuff would be important and probably wouldn't even need to be mentioned. In fact, she would do more to emphasize "but I'm a MARRIED WOMAN" or "how incredibly UNPROFESSIONAL" rather than emphasizing "I"m attractive and these fools invariably aren't".

I think, based on her own language and what she emphasizes in the letter, she's insulted that these men are so far beneath her in the attractiveness scale that they are deluded into thinking she could be had with a cheesy line like that.

It's an insult to her vanity, not her marital status.

@Miss Pasko, sadly, only in my dreams... for now, anyway!

Re: Mike H

Of course, I'm projecting, and theorizing that she could be feeling exactly the same way I have in similar circumstances. Your interpretation is possible also, although I natutrally prefer mine. You prefer yours, of course!

@Lise, indeed. Although I know that I too use personal experience when looking at some of the letters, I also tend to want to use the LW's words to unlock and unpack the issues going on, sometimes even subconsciously, and that's why in this case I'm leaning so solidly towards the interpretation I have.

Agree to disagree on this one!