Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW#1 do you and you husband have any concept of "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS?" His boss was having an affair with a director under him, not a student. If your husband is so smart, how did he not expect that this revelation would not back fire on him. You two are a couple of busy bodies and you would do well to stick your own nose in your own business Mr. and Mrs. Kravitz. If Mr. Kravitz is willing to jeopardize his own career about an affair that has nothing to do with him, he is an ass and deserves what he gets.

LW 1 Trade off weekend visits. Go to the kids' houses. that way they get to cook. We do every other Saturday at our kid's house, the other weekend they come to us. If your kids balk at this simply don't serve food when they come. If they stay through dinner tell them to go get takeout for everyone.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 5 April 2013, which itself referred to the second letter on 23 February 2013.

I can't take off my shoes when entering a friends home. My feet need the support in my shoes and I simply cannot walk without them. I take an extra minute to use a towel or paper towel to wipe them clean of dirt or snow. However, some people have food odor that they don't want to be noticed. Personally, I think a little dirt is more than compensated by friendship.

LW1 - I basically agree with Carly O on this one. Why did the LW's husband find it necessary to take it upon himself to report the affair: Was it affecting others in the department? What did he and his assistant hope to gain by reporting the couple to the HR department? The LW is now upset because the fact that they didn't MYOB is affecting not only his job, but their daughter's future. It's too bad they didn't think of the consequences before they decided to take it upon themselves to stick their nose into the couple's sex life. I'm afraid they brought all the problems they are now having on themselves, and will have to deal with them. I doubt going back to the HR department as the Annies suggest will do him any good. That's what started the problems in the first place, so I would assume complaining about the boss again will not make things better. He and his assistant made a bad decision initially, and going back to HR will only make it worse.

LW2 - I agree with what the Annies suggest, but maybe the LW could explain to their children that it is putting a financial burden on them to furnish food for the whole group and ask that they all contribute to the menu. They are all adults now and apparently making good salaries, so they should be more than willing to contribute. From what I gather, they are not visiting just for the day, but staying with the parents for the weekend and should be offering to help in various ways, not just with the food. However, they apparently won't offer to help unless things are spelled out for them.

LW1, unless this is a *very* small private college, it seems odd that your husband couldn't find another job there that would allow him not to work in the exact same office for this exact same boss.

I mean, apparently it's a large enough school to have a separate human resources department, which suggests it is large enough to have other job opportunities. If it really is that stressful, your husband should keep his eyes open for other opportunities there. Also, it's the job of an HR department to help employees with their career paths. He can simply go back to his HR rep and ask them to help him find another position. It may take a few months to find the right fit, but if your daughter wants to go to this school, it may be worth it.

I'm guessing based on your cryptic reference to the president that perhaps your husband works in the president's office, otherwise it wouldn't make sense that the president of the college would be involved in the decision about moving your husband to another position. But even so, if another job in another office becomes available at this school, I can't imagine that the president would block it in any way.

The other issue, then, is if there are no other colleges or universities in your area? Because he could also look for jobs there, assuming its a college your daughter would also like to go to.

But, to answer your question, I cannot understand what "compensation" your husband could ask for that would be reasonable or would be offered beyond what any other employee who quits would get. I'm not sure exactly what expectation your husband had when he "told on" his supervisor -- maybe that he would get fired? And that your husband might move up? But perhaps he should have thought this through more carefully before reporting the affair.

Marie about removing foot wear. I do not always require guests to remove their shoes but I do expect that guests be courteous to me about removing them if there is mud or dirt on their shoes that mess up my carpets needlessly. Its only happened couple of times but it is annoying to see dirty foot prints tracked though my home. It goes both ways on this.

LW1 - I absolutly, positively do not condone affairs in any way. But...your husband should've minded his own business and stayed out of his boss's personal affairs. It was none of his business. If their work is not being affected, what they do outside of the office is nobody's business.

You said the president is about to retire. After he does and the new president is appointed, your husband should asked to be transferred to another department. If they won't transfer him, then it's time to weigh out your options. If 4 years of free college tuition for your daughter worth it to him? If it is, then he needs to stick it out. If it's not, then it's time to get ready for his next job.

LW2 - I agree with Kitty. Tell your children that providing all of that food is too much of a finanical burden on you and you need them to contribute, especially with specialty foods. Those who have allergies or have personal prefrences can bring those special items for themselves. If they get angry, then purchase only what you want to and only make what you want to for a meal. Do not go out of your way for them. Eventually they'll get it. Or if they don't, then you don't have to go bankrupt anymore.

LW2: The only reason your successful adult children will keep taking advantage of you is if you keep letting them. Make it clear to them that you love them coming over for special weekends but that you are finding it increasingly hard to keep up with the menus and the expense, and ask them to contribute to the fun.

Make each of these weekends a special "family potluck weekend" and make use of different people's specialties -- some people may make great desserts, others may have a special casserole, etc.

LW3: Different people may have different comfort levels and different health issues, but yes, most people should be relatively aware of this. And a host or hostess can also help direct people or have slippers available.

LW4: It's men's fault. Men are ALWAYS to blame. But that's why we have donuts, eclairs, and scones. And puppet shows and dances. It's fun and liberating once you realize that it really is true that men are to blame for everything.

LW-1 -- I agree with most other comments that your husband should have MINDED HIS OWN BUSINESS. Is his position the MORALITY POLICE? He & his assistant read like a couple of middle school kids that wanted to tell something to try to get ahead and guess what - IT BACKFIRED. I think the "deliberation" was GOSSIP.

Re: Kath

There are bigger things in life than being anal about carpeting that can be cleaned. Life is too short.

For those of you who are quick to jump on LW1: the boss was having an affair with his direct report. Do you think it's possible he was giving her preferential treatment? Then it does affect the LW's husband.

Don't be so quick to be so judgmental, especially you, Carly O, considering that you like to accuse Christians of doing the same during your bigoted, venomous tirades. What a nasty, hateful shrew you must be.

LW1- I concur with others but I just have one question to add, why on earth should your husband get compensation (other than what others normally get) if he leaves? I'm sorry but your husband brought this on himself.

LW2- I think your own idea "I've thought about sending out an email with the anticipated menus and asking them to let me know whether they would like to bring or prepare any of it" is perfect and maybe take it a step further by assigning dishes to each of your grown children when they plan to visit. I think I would word it something like "You know Son or Daughter, with food and gas prices skyrocketing, we are going to try doing pot luck meals so would you mind bringing Mac & Cheese for 10 people"?

@Mike- Mine hasn't posted yet but I said almost the same thing you did on both accounts.

Re: Mike H (#7) – If it's a prominent person working for the University, one of the benefits is free tuition for the dependents or a large percentage there of. Did you really think that we saved over $150 K for our kids? No, we have to pay on the taxable income every year… blah, blah (NOTHING IS FOR FREE!). Now pertaining to the letter… I. sadly enough, get the impression that the LW was pushing her husband to “spill the beans”, and never understood the repercussions. She and He now have to suffer the consequences… I now question: did you learn a lesson?

Re: LW2 – This is laughable. If you make a good living then children coming for the weekend (even with allergies) should not be a concern (financially) for you. Either your head (or your perceived bank account) are out of this world. Which is it? If it so concerns you that the younger generation makes a good living, then suggest alternate weekends, or just shut up. You all make a good living – so why should this be an issue?

If it really bugs you that people send requests for the meals they want, why don't you tell them that you are not as rich as you want to appear, and you need help? Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but if you are as affluent as you want to *be*, there would be no requirement to people *helping out*

Wow - What could possibly have been your husband's motivation for getting involved in something that was clearly none of his business? He deserves the consequences.

LW1: Oh, I do like that "after much deliberation" you threw in there when describing your husband's choice to go to HR!

It doesn't look to me like there was much soul-searching at all. Yes, I do get that this may be a college associated with a church, and that committing adultery violates the Ten Commandments. I also get that many people, even the churched, may believe that this is a matter that's between a person and his spouse and the higher power of their choice, and that the employer's sole concern is how the affair affects the work being done.

Why your husband would jeopardize a job he LOVED, with your daughter so close to graduating, is unclear -- it does look very much like Mike H. i correct and that he was hoping for a promotion...or at least gain a competitive edge over his female co-worker. It was a gamble he lost.

Just wondering whether your husband has tried, oh, you know, apologizing to the boss who had previously helped make this a job your husband loved, for what was basically a power play aiming to get this boss or his paramour fired? Sounds like your husband is pretty unhappy. I'd think a sincere apology couldn't make the situation any worse and it might cause the boss to relent a bit.

@Mike - Re LW 4- Don't forget the Peanut Butter Pie.

@Mike - depends on the husband's position. If he's faculty (and likely is, if his daughter has the chance to attend tuition-free), he probably cannot just "transfer" departments. Let's say he's an English professor; there isn't more than one "English department." What if he works in Student Affairs? Again...there's only one such department per university, no matter the size (unless this is an extremely large Ivy, like Columbia - which has numerous undergraduate colleges within it). Honestly, transferring universities might be better than departments, though the husband likely knows that academia is a massive rumor-mill; he may do better to wait til his boss has left to move, so as not to have any reputation-killers follow him (and to possibly get a stronger recommendation). If I were him, I'd definitely look to leave - and next time, mind my own business. I see nowhere in the letter that indicates this "affair" affected the work environment in any way whatsoever. Oh, and for those complaining about university tuition - most faculty and staff aren't making anywhere near 6 figures - every job category has bumped pay to its employees, but colleges have remained about the same for the past decade. Having SOME perk is nice - as the faculty doesn't make any money off those "free ride" students, and the college in fact loses money on that out of their endowments - it doesn't come from other students' tuition, sorry. But, ya know, SCHOOL: it's to blame for EVERYTHING. (I'll be having a scone for one with the other elite, snobby educated folk).

If the direct report was receiving preferential treatment, then it was right to report. The suspension points to the affair being a problem. We just had a dean fired for the exact same offense. It's illegal, especially if it affected promotion.

Retaliation is also illegal. I think he should simply talk to university lawyer, not HR. that will end the harrassment and get him transferred. It takes a lawyer to spell out gender discrimination lawsuit. The lawyer will light a fire.

LW1, Like any other job, benefits stop when you quit. You only receive the free tuition when you work there. They don't owe anyone anything once they are gone. I think his motive for reporting the couple was to move into the supervisors position if he were fired. Ooops, that backfired. Since husband has only worked for this college for a few years I can't see how he has accumulated any seniority or benefits. He either needs to try and mend fences or look elsewhere for employment. I guess this incident will have to be a lesson learned - a VERY expensive lesson.
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LW2, I am thinking that it just might be the husbands children that are the main culprits here. What mother begrudges her children food when they come to visit? I certainly love it when my kids visit and am excited to fix their favorite dishes. What exactly is she feeding these people that is costing so much and how often are they coming? Next time they come to visit she could ask them to pick up Chinese or a pizza since she was too busy to cook. Then put on the old crock pot and make bean soup or grab some cans of beanie weenies. I can honestly say that I never thought about how much groceries cost when I went to visit my PARENTS.

in Canada there is no difference.. the cost of the education is added to the income of the employee and whoops all of a sudden a whole bunch is owed to Revenue Canada.... that's when our savings come into play...

Please talk to the human resources department about a hostile work environment and whistle blower laws. It makes little difference at this point if you should have gone to human resources in the first place. Right now it is your boss' actions that are affecting your family and your employment, so you should use all the legal power you have to counteract his behavior.

LW1--Your husband and his assistant have learned a valuable life lesson, or so I should hope. Maybe the next time your husband becomes privy to a salacious affair between his boss and another party he'll mind his own damn business instead of running to tattle to the big bosses. What goes on between consenting adults is their business, not your husband's or his assistant's. For your husband to be even considering asking for compensation or tuition reimbursement for a mess he caused himself is beyond the pale. I don't know what your husband's credentials are but evidently he has a Ph.D in abject stupidity! My advice is to encourage your husband to suck it up and apologize to his boss in the hopes of clearing the air at work. If your husband doesn't have the gumption to admit where he erred then I hope thinks about the consequences of his actions each and every time he writes a big fat check to your daughter's college or university.

LW2--Of course it makes perfect sense for you, who has limited income to expect your grown children to chip in for their own meals and for those of their picky eaters and special diets. For them to be "annoyed" and your mention of this subject indicates to me that they're operating under the misconception that they're entitled to treat your home like a free bed and breakfast and you a short order cook. I like the idea of a group e-mail. Keep it short and sweet while also flat out stating that the costs of keeping up with everyone's dietary needs is too much and they'll be expected to contribute towards the costs. If your children brush you off and continue to take advantage, then feel free to serve a big bowl of granola and ice water the next time they show up.

LW3--Don't underestimate the scarcity of common sense among the population. Couple that with the high degree of self-entitlement and there you have it.

LW1 -

And that's why we say "MYOB"!!! Lesson learned, huh? Apparently not, since you somehow think your husband deserves compensation. As others have said, you have to decide whether saving some money on tuition is worth it.

LW2 -

Re: Penny, Jenna

LW2 says they have 8 kids. Sounds like some or all of those kids are married and are having kids of their own. That is a lot of people to feed over a weekend. She says she makes a good living, but not that she's wealthy. I'd say a make a good living, but I couldn't afford to host 6+ people every weekend forever.

But it doesn't matter. If it's a financial strain, it's a financial strain, and she should not be afraid to speak up. Her adult children should be offering to host from time to time as well.

LW3 -

Going back to the original letter, I agree 100%. "Frank" should be bringing his indoor shoes with him all the time, unless he knows for a fact he won't need them. Otherwise he should assume he will need them, and bring them. It would never occur to me to tell people ahead of time that they will be asked to remove their shoes. Maybe I should also be reminding any guests to wear clothes when they come, and not break my windows for fun?

Re: Marie

I'm going to be honest here, I'd be irritated if someone came to my house and asked for paper towel to wipe mud off their boots. Paper towel or a cloth might work to brush off some dry sandy dirt, but it won't clean all the mud off a shoe or get snow out of all of the nooks and crannies. Eventually it's going to melt and drip on my floor or scratch up my hardwood.

Those who can't go without shoes for whatever reason should have a second pair of indoor shoes they carry around with them.

Of course, it depends on the type of shoe and the season. Flip flops or flats in the summer, fine. But anything you have to clean with paper towel probably isn't getting clean enough with just paper towel.

@jenna, I've gotten free tuition for my dependents ever since I started as a secretary in a small department 25 years ago. No, it's not just a perk for "prominent people" at a university. A colleague of mine put all three of her kids through college, and she was essentially a secretary her entire time there -- and not in a prominent, central office, either. Yes, there may be some tax implications depending on how the tuition remission is handled, but it still tends to be a lot better than paying full tuition. But in no case could any university employee "keep" those tuition benefits after leaving employment.

@jessie2, tuition remission benefits are indeed available to staff at many (maybe even most) colleges and universities. Especially private ones. And faculty don't tend to talk about their "supervisors", or "bosses", but rather, their department chairs. So it seems quite unlikely the LW is married to faculty. Furthermore, moving around isn't such a taboo for faculty -- it's not at all uncommon for faculty to leave a position in one department and move half-way across the country to another university. Faculty go where their academic opportunities are the best. And finally, most disputes among faculty aren't handled by an HR department, but rather a provost or dean's office. HR tends to more directly involved in disputes with staff. So, there are a lot of little clues in the letter that just make it seem that we are talking about a staff position and not a faculty one.

@Selika, it's unclear that the supervisor was giving preferential treatment to his paramour; I agree that it might change the scenario a bit if that's clear.

It's also very important to understand exactly what is meant by the supervisor now "undermines" them -- some retaliation is much more easily proved, other forms might be almost impossible to confront. I'm afraid the LW's husband made a foolish choice for possibly selfish reasons and didn't really have an exit strategy in place. You simply cannot lob such a bombshell into a work environment (that you purportedly love!) and expect no repercussions, and it would have been wiser for him to have already had a backup plan in place.

Not to say that the supervisor is a moral, upstanding guy here; but if he hadn't been showing preferential treatment to his lover, and their assignations didn't take place AT the workplace or interfere with their ability to do their jobs, then the LW's husband had little reason to report anything. And even if the affair WAS affecting the workplace negatively, the LW's husband should have understood that there were possible outcomes in which he himself was negatively affected.

Which is why I wonder if somewhere deep down he wasn't fantasizing about himself possibly getting some kind of promotion in the fallout, that he was assuming both would be fired. Because anything short of being fired and he's stuck with working with one or both of them after they know he tattled on them -- and how does that create a good working environment?

This seems to have been an ill-conceived move from the get-go.

LW#1: I think that your husband's only choice is going to be to leave the university, unless your husband is willing to continue in that position and continue becoming miserable. I worked for a large nameless university and understand the dynamics all too well. Sometimes they'll go at all cost to save incompetent people, and it's the good people who are forced to leave. Don't bother asking for compensation. Your best compensation will be to leave and start life anew somewhere else. I recently left my position and can assure you that from my perspective, life is better without the university politics.

I do agree with the OPs that this could be a good lesson in how to stay out of others' business. In my case, I contacted HR for feedback regarding my supervisor's inappropriate behavior towards me while I was out on maternity leave, and they ended up reporting her to her director. The end result of contacting HR is that I obviously burned my bridge with my former supervisor. Yes, I could ask the university for compensation for her actions, but to do so would just rub salt into the wound. My biggest gift is putting her into my past and having a much happier life without her in it. Move on and let this be a lesson. In the future, report something if it's actually harming you, but otherwise do your job and let bygones be bygones. If you're unable to deal with an environment due to unprofessionalism that doesn't actually directly affect you, find something new. Life's too short to work in a lousy environment.

Tell the kids it's too much work, as well as a financial strain and they'll need to pitch in. List what you'll provide and tell them to work out a menu among themselves.

Can you imagine how large the house is if they had 8 kids? The kids need to help clean up, too.

LW1: I honesty can't believe the number of people saying the husband should have minded his own business. Depending on this university's human resources policy, the husband could have been in deep trouble if the affair came to light and he HADN'T reported it. The HR policy where I work states that if there is illicit sexual activity going on between a supervisor and supervisee, it's the duty of anyone who knows to report it. If they do not, then if and when it comes to the attention of HR, the participants will be disciplined - along with anyone else who knew but said nothing, AND anyone else who SHOULD have known but may not have. He could have reported it not because he was a busybody, but because he was looking to protect himself - a rational course of action.

In any case, if indeed his HR department has such a policy, then they most certainly have a policy toward retaliatory action. He should document what his boss is doing for a period of time, then take it back to HR.

LW1
Time to consult an attorney and get him/her working with HR on your husband's behalf. It is entirely possible that between legal threats and hubby "eating crow" and brokering peace on a personal level, his job could be salvaged. Doesn't sound like hubby has leverage to get free tuition for your daughter if he leaves and sadly calling Saul Goodman is not an option here!

LW2
Time to establish a new dynamic. No reason at all you should have to shoulder the entire responsibility to frequently entertain and feed 8 adult children and a passel of grandchildren when you are probably trying to fund your impending retirement. No need for a big announcement, just speak with them gradually at the time you're making plans...tell them it's getting to be too much and ask for what you need - if they balk, remind them that you'll be retiring soon and you need to save your $ so that you don't become a burden on them. You dont have to come off as unwelcoming or ungenerous, just just decide what you're willing to do - provide X and then tell them they need to provide Y. They can help with any cleaning and chores the weekends entail also.

@Selika #21 -- I'm so glad you posted, because I was really surprised no one said what I was thinking, which you basically hit on the head. We, of course, do not know whether the LW's husband reported the affair because it was morally repugnant to him, or if he did it because it was affecting him in his job. I assumed it was the latter -- that the affair was affecting the performance in the department in some fashion. IF that's the case, then going to HR was the right thing to do. And if the resulting problems he has had are retaliation for his going to HR, then, while I'm not a lawyer, I would bet he's got a hostile work environment lawsuit on his hands. Were I LW1, I would be telling my husband to get himself to an attorney who specializes in employment law.

Now, if this really was just about him taking the moral high ground and the affair was NOT affecting his job in any way, then yes, I'm with everyone who said he should have minded his own business. Unfortunately, I have seen up close how an affair like this absolutely DOES have an impact on the co-workers, in a variety of different ways, none of them good. So it's not hard for me to imagine that moral outrage aside, LW's husband could well have had a legitimate complaint to HR that had nothing to do with him being a "busybody" and everything to do with him being affected professionally by the affair.

LW2 -- Just tell your kids that you can't afford to feed the marauding horde unassisted and ask for help -- either in the form of a prepared dish or a financial contribution (particularly if someone doesn't cook or is coming from too far away to bring a prepared dish easily). Here's what astounds me: you seem to be afraid to tell your children to do the right thing. These are your children. If some of them bristle at helping out and feel entitled to a free ride from you forever and ever amen because you are their parents, then you can tell them, "I thought I raised you better than this, but apparently not, so I guess better late than never, and it's time to teach you a thing or two about gratitude, sympathy and entitlement, because the gravy train stops right now."

@Mike H -- just want to say that the boss giving his paramour preferential treatment isn't the ONLY way an office affair of this sort can impact the other co-workers. Certainly, that is the most blatant/obvious thing. But there are a host of other ways such an affair can negatively impact the other co-workers. To be honest, I was surprised at the number of people who immediately went to "this guy should have minded his own business" and didn't consider the possibility that maybe this has created a number of very real problems in that office.

Re: Lisa

Although it is certainly possible, I don't believe that there was any preferential treatment or anything else in LW1's husband's office that caused him to reveal the affair.

I saw this because of the way the letter was worded ("My husband and his assistant found out about it" to me implies that they discovered it either by walking in on them, putting 2+2 together, seeing an email, something like that) and because the LW doesn't mention anything about it. Of course, she could have omitted any reference to how the office dynamic was negatively affected, but I don't *think* so. The "after much deliberation" comment also displays some kind of attempted justification, so why not go further if there is more to be said that can fortify her side of the story?

She could have so easily said "His male boss had an affair with one of the female directors under him. She was receiving preferential treatment and it was affecting my husband's ability to work. After much deliberation, he and his assistant brought it to the attention of the human resources department." OR, as PV suggested "His male boss had an affair with one of the female directors under him. My husband and his assistant found out about it and, because the HR policy demands it, brought it to the attention of the human resources department."

It would have been SO EASY to include that, that the fact that she didn't really makes me think neither of those things is the case.

@ Lisa Re: #35

"...and didn't consider the possibility that maybe this has created a number of very real problems in that office."

And yet that happened anyway. I have a rule that I don't meddle in other people's personal affairs. Regardless of any HR policy, meddling in other people's personal relationships is asking for trouble. Duh! I also subscribe to the theory that if you give someone enough rope, they'll hang themselves.

@Lisa, I'm with Zoe and Chris on this one. There seems to be very little evidence in the letter that this affair affected his job BEFORE he reported it ("until this affair he loved his job and did it well" and "My husband and his assistant found out about it [the affair]") and it's only AFTER he reported it that his life has become difficult.

@PV, I just checked the HR policies at my own university, and there's zero in there about mandatory reporting of other people's affairs. Nada. No consequence at all if someone knows of an affair and doesn't say anything. And I don't recall a similar rule at my previous employer, also a major university, either. The only thing this policy mentions is that consensual relationships between employees are inappropriate if one has supervisory authority over the other -- so they need to report to a higher level manager to request alternative supervising for the duration of the relationship. Hardly earth-shattering consequences worth termination. (Sexual harassment is a completely different story.) So if this was a scenario that happened at my university, the worst this couple could be accused of is violating the policy of establishing alternate lines of supervision; hardly a firing offense (as it clearly was not in the case in the first letter today, either).

I don't think anyone is arguing that the affair is a great idea, or that the boss and his lover are wonderful, moral, people. It's just that the LW's husband shouldn't have stuck his nose in their business if (a) it didn't affect his workplace and (b) he didn't understand what the consequences were likely to be.

I mean, honestly, the ONLY way he could have thought this would work out for him is if BOTH got fired (otherwise he'd be left working with one or both of them and they would now resent him), and obviously he was way off in his estimation of their termination being the likely outcome. He miscalculated, badly, and is now suffering the consequences.

It sucks to be him, but this wasn't exactly something unavoidable, either. His actions directly led to this outcome.

LW1: Rule number one in the workforce: NEVER complain to HR or upper management about your immediate supervisor, no matter what the circumstances. I don't care how horrible he or she is. YOU have to work for this person until you find another job, so suck it up and deal. Leave on your terms with good references. If you break this rule, I promise you will regret it.

LW2: Make a grocery list and send the "kids" to the store to buy what you need.

LW3: I live in California and don't have much experience with snow outside of winter ski trips. Don't you have porches and mud rooms?

@Zoe -- perhaps, which is why I certainly allowed for the possibility that it really was just about him taking the moral high ground. But as someone else (apologize to whomever it was -- I've lost track at this point) pointed out, regardless of his original reason for reporting this, IF he can demonstrate that his boss has now retaliated against him for reporting him to HR, then he potentially has a lawsuit on his hands, and he should look into it. Because, sure, if it wasn't affecting him in any way (and there were no repercussions for him for NOT reporting it), then he should have just minded his own business. But regardless of whether he should have reported it in the first place or not, he shouldn't be paying for that now, and according to the wife, he is. Seems to me like this is one of the things hostile workplace laws were created for in the first place (but again, I would defer to someone with actual legal expertise, which I do not claim to have).

I think part of the reason I saw this from the other side is because I saw what happened when MY husband had to deal with how his boss' affair (with the receptionist, of course, can you get any more cliche?) affected pretty much every single person in the office. If the receptionist didn't fulfill one of her duties (in addition to answering the phone and greeting people who walked in, etc., she also had other duties related to filing, faxing, mailing things, etc.), people were afraid to call her out on it because everyone knew she was shtupping the boss. She was dropping the ball on a number of things -- things that actually cost the company money -- but everyone was afraid to do anything about it. And she knew it, and she used that. So, she wasn't promoted ahead of someone else, nor did she get raises that no one else got (stuff you typically think of when you think of "preferential treatment"), but she basically could get away with not doing her job -- and when her failing to do her job cost the company money or cost a sales person his commission, it was either blamed on someone else or swept under the carpet.

Now, granted, the LW doesn't mention anything like that, so who knows? But I also know that the fact that they deliberated about this for a while before deciding to report it doesn't automatically mean that this was just about taking the moral high ground or being a busybody or what have you. A number of people eventually came to my husband (because he also happens to be the brother of the boss in question, and at that time there was no HR person) to report the problem -- and in every case, it took MONTHS before these people came to my husband to ask what, if anything, could be done about it. They didn't wait months because they were struggling with the morality of it -- they waited months because they feared for their jobs. Again, LW doesn't mention her husband fearing for his job, either, so again, who knows? It could well be I'm projecting, based on my husband's experience, and I fully admit that. It's just that even when something like this doesn't directly affect your salary or your promotion, that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have a negative impact on you.

But you're right -- it would have been easy to include even the barest of hints towards any of this kind of stuff, and it's not there, either because it got edited out, the LW didn't think it was pertinent, or it simply didn't happen -- or she doesn't have all the facts, which is entirely possible, as this is a second-hand account. And it is that, more than anything else, that makes this a potential case of "unreliable narrator."

You mentioned something about how did the hubby find out about the affair in the first place, and noted one possibility of literally walking in on them... Did no one else BTL see the episode of "The Office" (American version), where Michael and Holly's office romance (and neither was married, so technically nothing really wrong with them being romantically involved) led to PDA that made everyone else in the office uncomfortable? I have to say, if I walked in on a couple of co-workers going at it, and that was the way I found out they were having an affair (and I would only call it an affair if one or both of them was married, BTW), that would make me awfully darn uncomfortable. If it was a one-time thing, and they were otherwise always professional and it otherwise didn't affect me in any way, I'd just "forget about it" and mind my own business. But if it happened again or caused other repercussions for me...

@Chris -- "And yet that happened anyway." Yup, which is why he now potentially has a viable lawsuit on his hands, REGARDLESS of what his original motivation was to report the affair in the first place. But my original point was that I was surprised no one considered that the affair was causing problems in the office BEFORE he reported it and that was the reason he reported it in the first place, not merely being a nosy so-and-so. As it happens, even if he WAS just being a nosy so-and-so, his boss's retaliation against him has now potentially created a viable lawsuit -- which, one could argue, is, in fact, giving that boss enough rope to hang himself.

Zoe, She didn't say they came home every weekend. She also didn't say they weren't wealthy. She said they make a good living. But since she feels that the food bill is too much, what's wrong with my beans and beanie weenies? I do like the idea of telling the 'children' to stop and pick up a standing rib roast and the expensive items. Nothing wrong with Chinese either. Hell, you could feed the multitudes on one take out order.
I was going to start out with, "Sweety, can't you read? REREAD the letter." I just thought it was getting so pleasent BTL I might need to jack it up a notch.

LW2-
"They've been known to send requests for the meals they want."
That's called being entitled and a spoiled brat. You're not a restaurant.

"and some of them get a little annoyed that we would even thinkthey should help.
That's called being entitled, a spoiled brat, and CHEAP. You're not the mommy of eight year-olds anymore.

"especially when I have to buy for those with food allergies and unusual preferences."
You're neither a restaurant nor a hospital. I can understand taking food allergies into consideration because it's a medical condition and you care about your children, but those with "unusual preferences" can bring their own vittles if they're so fussy that they can't stomach what you provide.

I can understand that, given their entitled attitude, you find it difficult to ask, but you'll have to brace yourself and find your backbone, because nothing will ever change otherwise.

Send them a mass e-mail titled "New procedures for weekend get-togethers" and starting with "Now that we are getting on with years, from now on", and inform the bunch of ungrateful louts that:

1. You're not a bank and funds are running low. There will now be an x amount cover charge to contribute to the cost. Or they can make it potlock, and each of them contributing a dish, with you coordinating so that there aren't 8 store-bought cakes and no main dish. Their choice.
2. If they choose the money contribution with you cooking, you will prepare a menu, which you will circulate ahead of time. Those with "unusual preferences" can bring their own food - you won't be insulted, promise.
3. You need help with cleaning up, or additional contribution to hire such. Pick your poison.
4. Failing graceful acceptance of these changes, the free weekend get-away buffet is closed for business.

Nobody can take advantage of you without your permission. Enough already.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Marie #4
Sorry for whatever foot condition you have. I don't care if you change shoes when you come in or wipe the ones you've got well enough so that they don't track mud and snow all over my floor, but anyone who cares so little for me that they wouldn't bother to exhibit even such BASIC MANNERS is no friend.

P.S.: Nobody is accusing YOU of tracking mud and snow through anyone's house. If you take pains so that your footwear doesn't, then you have no reason to take this personally.

And to tell you the truth, the less troublesome and more sensible option would be for you to simply carry a pair of suitable house shoes with you every time you visit someone. Frankly, how difficult is THAT?

@Penny #22
"What exactly is she feeding these people that is costing so much and how often are they coming?"
OK, Let's look at the figures here.

She says they have 8 children and more grandchildren all the time. She says "when several of them come for the weekends", meaning more than two. If you count three or four of them visiting at a time, plus the mates, plus 1-3 kids each, that's anywhere between 9 and 20 guests - at a time.

And I don't think it's "how often" that should be considered, but for "how long". "For the weekends" suggests they don't stay just the one day, but for the whole weekend. It also suggests pretty much every weekend, with not necessarily the same combination of people every week. Which means she's feeding the equivalent of 18-40 people over the weekend, and yes, children count as people. I don't remember if you have any kids, but *I* remember that mine ate more than I did the minute she hit school age - Mister Trinidad used to call her the Eat-O-Matic, the Black Hole and the Vacuum Cleaner.

I'm sorry, but that adds up to quite a bit even if she was feeding them hot dogs, and you can bet she isn't, especially considering having to buy for "those with food allergies and unusual preferences".

I think she has a legitimate beef - and beef is expensive as hell, even the cheap cuts! ;-D.

Re: PuaHone
"I live in California and don't have much experience with snow outside of winter ski trips. Don't you have porches and mud rooms?"
Huh?

Porches are outside and full of snow themselves. What are "mudrooms"? I think you're confusing 1-2 bedrooms apartments with a mansion.

Re: PV, I am really at a loss on your your code of ethics where you work. How can someone be held accountable because they should have known, but did not. Who exactly would that be? And how would someone know if you knew but did not tell? I can't see that most of those 'rules' are enforceable. What type of work environment does that inspire? Everyone getting into everyone else's business. I think you may be pulling our collective legs. That sounds like a lawsuit sitting on the backburner.

Lise- Mudrooms are quite common in my neck of the woods. We typically get a lot of snow. This is from Wikipedia: An entryway is a hall that is generally located at the front entrance of a house. An entryway often has a coat closet, and usually has linoleum or tile flooring rather than carpet, making it an easy-to-clean transition space between the outdoor and indoor areas. I have to admit ours has always been located off of the laundry (usually the side or rear of the house).

Lise, give me back my calculator, you're using it wrong. The point of my letter was to lower the cost of the food, thus the beans, beanie weenie, pizza and Chinese food comment. I was suggesting she cook or serve low cost easy prep foods. I can make a chicken go like Stretch Armstrong. If the food is not to their liking they can go get something that is. With 8 kids I believe she should pull out her 'Raising 8 Kids on a Budget Recipe Book' and go back in time. "As a special treat, I remember how you loved this dish when you were a kid." Casserols, goulash, Mac and cheese, chip beef on toast, grilled cheese and tomato soup and my all time favorite, bean soup. There are thousands of low cost meals that she could use. Now chances are they are not going to be pleased with the fare, but then again they would have to say something and then she could simply tell them that food cost had gone so high it was getting prohibitive and she didn't want to chance losing their company. How sad and sweet is that?
I'm guessing my brevity in the first post didn't come across as I had intended. Sorry for the confusion.

to our Canadian posters- You all got me thinking since often times people compare the US with Canada and often times people say they are very similar. Couple that with me learning through BTL here that medical and universities are paid for. With Lise saying how expensive meat is, it got me thinking so I did a quick Google and found that the cost of living is more expensive in Canada compared to the US (with exception of produce. Canada has better prices on produce... go figure as it's nature's healthy gifts). According to what I found, Canada salaries are lower than the US while almost everything costs more. I don't think this study took into account that Universities & Medical are paid for though.
Zoe- Since you posted the obesity rate being so high in the US, I got curious about that too and I was shocked that we are even fatter than Mexico. We are the fattest country according to the study with Mexico being second. Another study did say that Canada's obesity rate has been climbing up at an alarming rate with Ontario's notably higher. Canada has now moved to the 6th spot. What do you think is causing that? Is it because of the American influence of fast foods and bigger portions or something else altogether?

Lisa, I get what you're saying. But LW says only of her husband's work life prior to finding out about the affair: He loved this job and did it well.

That indicates to me that he was not frustrated that he wasn't being given credit for his ideas, that his co-worker was receiving preferential treatment, that office morale was high.

That's a very different scenario from your husband's office (and also from a lot of similar letters that come in, too). In those cases, it's not the affair per se that is objectionable, it's the fallout from it affecting business workings. In the absence of such fallout, I think LW made a poor judgment call. It's hard for me to understand what he thought would happen: the boss would get fired? The co-worker would be fired?

Highly unlikely, unless they'd been problem employees in other ways (see "my husband loved his job"). A two-week suspension indicates to me that they were valued employees, probably with more seniority than LW's husband.

Sometimes, you have to figure in which way the wind is blowing. And unless your boss is involved in something that's a prosecutable offense (Penn State athletic scandal, obviously, but also embezzling) or clear violation of university policy (faculty/student affair), I'd not report. Even if there were a mandatory reporting clause -- I'd say the chance of punishment from the boss like LW's husband is experiencing is greater than the chance that someone else is going to come looking for me to question whether I knew for certain that my boss and my co-worker were not in their own hotel rooms at the symposium or that they played footsie under the table at meetings.

Sending requests for free meals is certainly a case of entitlement.

Sorta like expecting other people to work hard and pay so that someone can sit at home day after day and call others entitled on an advice column message board.

Re: Penny

Yes, she said they make a good living. (Nor did I state that her kids were over every weekend...) It's a different thing from being wealthy. She may be wealthy, I don't know, but I'm taking her at her word that a) she's not in the poorhouse, regardless of to what degree she is well off and b) she's finding feeding her growing family on weekends to be a financial burden. There is nothing wrong with substituting cheaper food, and I wasn't arguing that. I didn't think, though, that either you or PV were reasonable in accusing her of lying or hating on her husband's kids because if she "makes a good living" then surely she MUST be able to afford to feed 20 people for a weekend regularly.

Lise B said it well. And she is right that even cheap meals add up. The LW did not say she's filing for bankruptcy, but if she's feeding a large group of people for a weekend - that's a big grocery bill! A few loaves of bread, a couple types of meat (even cheap, meat is expensive), a few packages of pasta. A few jugs of juice, some bags of chips, an assortment of fruits and veg. I don't know, but it could EASILY run up a few hundred bucks for each of these weekend. They may also want to feed healthy foods and while it is certainly possible to feed healthy on the cheap, beanie weenies, mac and cheese, Chinese food, pizza, grilled cheese sandwiches and others are not healthy options.

Additionally, around here, Chinese food is really expensive. It is a treat for my husband and me because it'll be $50 for the two of us and we don't get that much leftovers.

Re: JustBecause

Yes, food is expensive here. I have heard tales of Americans feeding their families on a few dollars a day. Not possible here. A few dollars for a MEAL would be considered pretty cheap (although doable, if you are willing to cook lentils and things from bulk).

I believe the causes of obesity are that food is abundant, it's highly processed and caters to what our cavemen brains seek (fatty, high calorie foods to sustain us during leaner times - which no longer exist). Takeout and fast food is so easy and inexpensive. Bigger portions (I think the small size fries at McD's is the same size as the large used to be?) People sleep less (so eat more). We don't have to move very much anymore - keeping active and in shape is now a chore or a planned activity, as opposed to just something that happened during the day. There are more single parents and families where both parents work, so kids are often left to their own devices and/or fed what they want because it's easier. We haven't learned yet that staying healthy requires a certain amount of effort. Up until a generation or two ago, staying relatively healthy was a part of daily life (people walked more, had more family time to do activities, there was less processed food) - you went to the gym if you wanted to lift weights, not maintain your weight (I am simplifying here, obviously).

About 10 years ago, I was working for a company where the (married) General Manager was boinking one of the secretaries. The problem was that she was getting very preferential treatment. She would come in 2 to 3 hours late, go to lunch with him for 2 hours and most of the time leave early. In a 40 hour work week, she probably worked about 10 hours. He told the other secretaries to do her work and would ream them out if they complained. He would also give his mistress fat bonuses and hide them in the books by claiming they were business expenses. Rumor had it that in one year, his mistress banked over $100,000. The other secretaries made $30,000 at most.

Turns out the head of H/R was keeping track of EVERYTHING in that year to year and a half. She submitted everything EXCEPT the affair to the GM's boss. She didn't utter a word of that. She highlighted the biggest thing which was the bonuses and then lying about them. From what I heard, the GM's boss contacted her and asked if they were sleeping together and she said, "I don't know. But I have plenty of witnesses to the other things." The GM and his mistress ended up getting fired.

If preferential treatment is going on, your husband needs to bring that to someone's attention. Leave anything personal out of it. Only bring what is work related. If there is no preferential treatment with those two, then he needs to mind his own business.

Re: JustBecause #45
At the rear of the house, that would make it a bit awkward if you intend to enter the premises from the front.

Anyway, I have not often seen that, and always in more affluent dwellings, rarely apartments... in fact, nowhewre that I can remember although I'm sure it exists. What I see here is regular entrances with carpet or wood flooring, where it is not recommended to thread with winter boots full of wet debris. Often there is a special piece of carpet where people can deposit their wet and dirty boots, as they are not expected to keep such boots on. In Canada, it is even customary to take off regular shoes, so not to track street dirt into the house.

@Penny #46
" The point of my letter was to lower the cost of the food, thus the beans, beanie weenie, pizza and Chinese food comment."
But Penny, even with economical stuff like "casseroles, goulash, Mac and cheese, chip beef on toast, grilled cheese and tomato soup and bean soup", having to prepare for 9-20 people two days a week will add up to a pretty penny. Also, her signature ("Too Good a Cook") suggests that her own specialties are personal favourites that they like to come home to mama for, so methinks they'll not settle for mac & cheese or hot dogs. Nothing wrong with loving mommy's cooking, but with the quantities involved with feeding such a horde, even with dishes that don't have any expensive ingredients, it puts a dent on a budget even when you "make a good living". And then, there are the specialty items for the allergics and the fusspots, that's not so cheap. Evidently, the LW is starting to feel the pinch, or else she wouldn't be writing.

@JustBecause #47
I don't know where you got that Canadian universities are free. As far as I know, only carded Natives (and I'm not carded) and the military get free tuition. And perhaps the children of tenured teachers and full-time university support, I don't know the specifics about that. If university was free, I would have a coupla PHDs (I love studying), and I would qualify for university teaching myself. And keep in mind the ruckus in Quebec last summer, which the US media was warning tourists against as it we were in the middle of a revolution: the demonstrating students were clamouring for free tuition.

As for medical, it is true that the Medicare card gets you care without cost. However, everybody has to contribute, even people on Welfare have an amount deducted from their check. The amount of contribution and the method of extraction varies from one province to the other, as do the services covered. Not everything is covered. Dentistry is not. You have to have a special plan at work, special insurance that covers it or be on Welfare. In the latter case, basic-basic care only, as in one cleaning per year, obturations and extractions only, or dentures. Nothing else.

Also, the waiting time for procedures can be very long even when it is very urgent, which has triggered private clinics to sprout like mushrooms, and in turn the complaints about a two-tier system - only people who can afford the private clinics get timely medical care.

About the rates of obesity, I would say that perhaps with the price of food, we buy less of it? ;-D Seriously now, I think Canadians are perhaps a little more active, although the increasingly important role sit-down-to entertainment and modes of communications play are perhaps taking a toll - you don't lose weight when the only exercise you get is with your thumbs texting or on the remote, or your hands pounding the computer keyboard.

But it's true that extremely obese people are still quite rare here, most people look normal or only slightly overweight and visibly fat children are the minority. At least in Montreal!

And btw, I did hear that prescription medication was cheaper in Canada, and that Americans crossing the border to come here to shop are quite frequent in border towns. I don't know if it's still like that.

Re: Lise B

Montreal is a bike town, I bet the average weight there is lower than in most other cities.

I have always felt that basic dental and eye care should be covered by government insurance as well. Surely mouth and eye checkups are as important as a pap smear or blood pressure test!

Lise wrote:

"But it's true that extremely obese people are still quite rare here, most people look normal or only slightly overweight and visibly fat children are the minority. At least in Montreal!"

******

Uh, no. While Canadians -- and Montrealers -- may not, on average, be as fat as Americans, we certainly have more than our share of heffers.

Okay, dumb question... What's a beanie weenie?
RXs are very expensive here without insurance. I have heard Mexico has the best prices but too risky and Canada has good prices. We buy dental & vision insurance separate here and it's not that much money. Medical insurance is very expensive but most companies pick up the greater portion of that cost. Medical here does not pay for hearing aides and they are about 2k for each ear and that never made any sense to me. Hearing loss/deafness runs in our family as both my parents and my brother who is a year older than me wear two hearing aides. My Sis who is a year younger wears one and I'm getting my first one (about 5 years overdue). My family is not very well off so that's a big hit financially. I'm comfy financially but I think for vanity, put off getting a hearing aide. It's now starting to effect my job so I can't afford to be vain. My point is, hearing is something necessary but for some dumb reason, its not covered.

I apologize but I thought I read it here BTL about universities being paid for. I must have mis understood.

ZOE- Chinese food here is VERY cheap and one serving is usually is 2-3 meals. I'm looking at a menu that's always on our fridge and General Tso's Chicken combo is $7.50 and comes with one egg roll & fried rice or noodles.

My SIL's and I went to early dinner today and it was $13 a piece and that's including a 20% tip. Granted we all got a veggie wrap and small salad plus iced tea but still the serving size was big enough that I took half the wrap home for lunch tomorrow.

@Zoe
"Surely mouth and eye checkups are as important as a pap smear or blood pressure test!"
I think (I hope) that's the thinking behind Welfare covering basic teeth care and basic eye care as well. They do pay for an eye examination every two years and glasses, but they pay a fixed amount and you have to pay the rest. There is always a leftover.

As for dental care, well, someone in need of an obturation or extraction and not getting it would end up needing a root canal at one point rather fast. Since we're talking several hundreds of dollars here, the person would have no choice but showing up at the emergency at one of the few hospitals which have an emergency dental clinic, where it will be picked up by Medicare, but much more expensive than the obturation or extraction would have been. Not a bargain. Not to mention the risk of complications.

And to tell you quite frankly, the last I heard of these clinics was years ago and, with all the cuts here there and everywhere that have been effected, I'm not even sure they still exist.

Oh yeah, plastic surgery is far cheaper in Canada (at least in Quebec) than in the US. As for dentistry bargains, one of the fellow vendors at Tam Tam goes to Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Viet Nam) to buy his merchandise (among other things ;-D) and spends the winter there. He gets whatever dentistry he needs done there, at what he says is a fraction of the cost with all the same shiny technology as the rest of the modern world.

Re: Princess Bride
I never said there were no "heffers" here, just that there SEEMED to be less of them than in some other places. As in, the great majority of the people I see lined up at the bus stop don't need two seats. Is there anything at all you're capable of reading straight and without twisting it around?

LW1 -
While unsavory to say the least, and probably illegal considering the woman was hierarchically under her lover, unless the affair was affecting your husband's ability to do his work, it was none of his business. Now the sh(i)t has hit the fan and your husband is the one in the direct line of fire. Frankly, what other result did he expect?

Your husband has four options:
1. Find another job as soon as he can, hopefully at another college, in the hope that he can get the same tuition-free fringe benefits in time for your daughter to graduate. But because of that, you may have to move and uproot your family.
2. Eat crow and apologize, in the hope that the man he put in hot water forgives him (doubtful - that cost him two weeks of salary plus the public outing)
3. Bide his time, wait for the president to retire, and ask his replacement to transfer you (pray that it is not Mister Horndog who gets promoted).
4. Bite the bullet and drink the bitter dreg until your daughter finishes college.

As for "compensation", you're out of your mind. He's the one who stirred a hornet's nest and now you're wailing because the stingy little buggers went after your husband instead of the intended target?

If this situation had impinged on your husband's ability to perform his task creditably, it would have been one of the first things you would have mentioned, I think, since that would have been a major argument for intervention. Since you said zero on the matter, I can only assume that your husband blew the whistle because of his moral outrage. Given that, the situation is of his own doing. You may want to consult a lawyer but, as things presently stand, I don't think you have a case. If the man is still making your husband's life miserable in a year or slandering him when he references him to a potential employer, now that's another matter.

P.S.: Why is it you writing and not him, and what part did you play in this mess? Just asking.

P.P.S.: He may encounter the exact same situation at his next place of employment. You can't force the world to go forth and sin no more - you two should learn to MYOB and zip it.

Wow- misunderstand much? When I read the letter about the college worker, I did NOT get the impression that work conditions got worse after he reported the affair- I understood that the boss was giving his affair preferential treatment, as well as undercutting the LW's husband at every turn. Since being a bad boss is hard to quantify, he reported the affair. I do not think he did it because the affair offended his moral compass; I think he reported it because the boss was probably letting her get away with a lot, and he and his assistant had to pick up the slack and do her work as well as their own. And he was probably hoping that if one or both of them were fired, things would get back to normal, or at least the work would be distributed more equitably. The letter writer is not the one who blew the whistle, hence the sketchy details. But I think that jumping all over the guy is not fair as I understand it. I think his work conditions were unbearable, and the only thing he could quantify was the affair, so that is what he reported.

Re: JustBecause, Beanie weenies are baked beans and cut up hotdogs.
Lise, my point was that if she feeds them inexpensive food that they will ask why and she can tell them. Still don't read that the kids come every weekend.

Okay PENNY... What I know as Pork And Beans but I don't think anyone on the East Coast puts hot dogs in their baked beans. I was raised in the West Coast (California ) and we put dogs and BBQ sauce in our pork & beans

this is the blended family lw1...i am glad to answer any questions and fill in the missing pieces.....

Re: nancy andrews
Do you mean LW1 from yesterday, "Little Boys Run Wild and Don't Listen"?

Re: JustBecause #61
Hey - that sounds good!

@Patty Bear #59
Considering she distinctly says, "Until this affair, he loved his job and did it well", I can only assume that, until then, everything was hunky-dory and that the undermining reported in paragraph two (AFTER she mentioned the affair in paragraph one) started occuring after the affair - no doubt as a means of retaliating. Until then, neither of them had any reason to believe that "there is no future for my husband at this college".

I could be wrong of course, but I really don't think I'm the one who is misunderstanding here.

Re: JustBecause, Van Camps makes Beanee Weenees, correct spelling. I am an East Coast girl and we loved them.
Nancy, how often do they visit?

Penny, thanks! I'll look for them at the grocery on my way home. My husband loves baked beans so I buy them a lot. I guess I never paid much attention to others because he is very specific on the brand he likes (Bushs Onion).