Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1-
Just don't put yourself in a frame of mind where there is a deadline. See a lawyer to protect yourself, take it day by day and keep yourself open for the future. Your children are on your side, I'm sure you have friends. Do keep in mind that divorce can mean solitude, but also freedom. Concentrate on the freedom aspect, and try to pamper yourself.

And if he moves in with his paramour without asking for divorce, do ask for it yourself. You shouldn,t keep yourself in limbo forever because he doesn't know what he wants and doesn't care who he hurts.

LW2-
"Financial pressure" would be to be worried about finding the money for rent and utilities, or not having enough to buy groceries, unpaid tuition and no money for school books. It does not include which jacket you choose to buy, if any. Parental education about financial responsibility, however, does include life lessons every time there is an opportunity. Proof of which, they're more selective when they're forced to contribute. You did well and you're the one who's in the right.

LW3-
"Readers should understand that bio-identical hormones are still hormones, and everyone reacts differently."
I suppose that little sentence is a hint on how THEY reacted...

LW2: You did right MOM. My first 'contract' with my eldest was in kindergarten. He wanted a new bike. He had money in his bank and still needed $25. So we drew up a contract--payment involved his part of the bike cost and also conditions of behavior, studying in school, etc. This set the tone for this 6 year old. The rest of his life he would decidely want things, decide how much he was willing to put towards it, how many hours did he want to work in addition to get it. By age 15, he not only owned a little runner of an S10--used, but also his first classic--1970 Chevy Impala Convertible. His part of the restoration was sweat equity--assigned to him from the body shop he took it to for a new paint job. Stripping and sanding and polishing chrome, etc. By age 16--when he got his legal license--his car was ready. And well learned were skills of dropping the drive train, swapping out engine and tranny. Later came rebuilding both to replace back in.
When the money was needed, he added another job or asked for more hours to the 2 current. At age 17, he held 3 jobs--professional rescuer/swimming instructor, grocery store stockperson and a trainee on an open range turkey farm--walked the pastures picking up dead turkeys from the heat. Will never eat turkey again. But it made him the cash he needed.
Also put him through 4 years of college (a little scholarship help). 17 years later from the purchase of his Impala, he has many goals met, very successful with his job, marriage and family life---- and now meeting another goal---training to become a local volunteer fireman. That is a 2 year process of education after work--atill a 60 hour NORMAL work week. A heavy work week is 90 hours.
You don't set them up to fail, you set them up to prove they can succeed.

There is a TV commercial I laugh at each time it is on. The wife tells of her woes and how they all came to a head and were solved when she visited a hormone replacement clinic. Her sex drive was back and she was swinging again. Her parting shot---now my husband is ready to go for the same therapy-----And it showed a man.
Question: What hormone replacement therapy would a man get---if he had sent her to it in the first place?

Men can get testosterone replacement therapy. Many men with low sex drives are actually suffering from low testosterone. Now some might say well is that really a problem? But it can be as those hormones affect metabolism and all sorts of other things besides just our desire for sex.

If you see a fat frumpy man with little to no energy and a lack of a sex drive, he very likely has low testosterone. This isn't the only profile of course and it manifests in many ways but the common denominator is a low sex drive.

My mom would show me how much was budgeted for my school clothes each Fall. I could blow it all on one wonderful jacket, or parcel it out to get several outfits. Up to me.Some times it was worth it to me to wear ragged jeans with the wonderful jacket, but I knew mom would not bale me out if I made a bad choice. I had to wear it all year, or baby-sit to earn more money. And I was expected to put half of anything I earned into my savings account.

Men can get testosterone if their low drive is caused by lack of it. Their testosterone (usually) starts to drop after 40 and then continues to decline as they age. Guess it's manopause...

LW1: Your husband is being quite unfair, and you should get a lawyer and counseling to figure out what YOU want, and not wait too long for him to "make up his mind". Right now he's having his cake and eating it too, and unless you are comfortable in an open relationship, you may be the one that has to be a stop to it.

LW2: You were right, your husband is wrong. Children that age are certainly old enough to start learning the value of a dollar, and such lessons will help them immensely once they are on their own and starting off as adults. Stand your ground on this one.

LW3: It's always a good idea to get a second or even third opinion if your first doctor isn't fixing the problem.

LW1 - I think Lise said it perfectly. Definitly see a lawyer about protecting yourself. You also have to think about this...if your husband and his girlfriend break up (whether it be his choice or her's) and he goes back to you, are you gonna be satisfied with that? Knowing that he's not truely dedicated to you and could just find another girl later on and leave again. Maybe you should also go for some counseling to help you along with this. Best of luck to you.

LW2 - YOU were right. This was a luxury item...not a neccessity. Does your husband plan on paying for everything for them for the rest of his life?

I have an uncle who buys everything his kids want. His daughter will be 18 soon, won't get a part-time job and is constantly going to him, "Daddy, my friends and I are going to the movies, I need money." "Daddy, my friends and I are going to the festival, I need money." "Daddy, my favorite band is in town, I need money for tickets." And he gives it to her every single time. Of course, her demands are getting more expensive and more frequent. He's now complaining he has bill collectors after him.

Wow, I may be missing the point here, but it seems like some comments are from people desperate to write their own advice columns, lol. I can understand the human interest and the chatter about options, but when someone starts addressing the letter writer directly, I can't help but wonder if they also talk to those people they see on their TVs! I suppose it's possible a letter writer looks to the comments for further advice, but it wouldn't have occurred to me, given there's a pretty good mix of support and castigation in the comments. Sort of reminds me of when teacher would leave the room and some class clown would go to the front and pretend to be "instructing" us, lol.

Cheers.

Actually, Ms. Rowena, I thought you read these comments more regularly than that!

If you did read BTL more regularly, you'd know that (a) it's often simply quicker and easier to address the LW's directly, nothing more sinister than that; (b) people have been commenting that way for over a year now, at least, as you can see if you check the archives; and (c) we have had several LWs make an appearance BTL in recent months.

So I guess you have missed a lot that has happened here, otherwise you probably wouldn't have needed to make such a comment. Hope that clears it up for you.

Ms. Rowena, I think part of the fun of these comments is allowing us to play advice columnist on the internet. Sometimes LWs DO come here to read BTL. And sometimes, addressing the LW directly is just shorthand for "What the Annies SHOULD have said was...."

LW2: I think you were right in this particular instance, but I think your family is probably overdue for a talk on saving vs. spending, and that you and your husband need to hear each other out on your priorities for the kids. You're afraid they won't learn the value of a dollar and how to spend wisely. What he's afraid of: the girls will decide that looking fashionable or having an iPad -- or that being treated like an adult at work --is more important than practicing free throws and winning basket ball games, or studying and getting good grades. "Necessities" and "luxuries" tend to have different definitions among teens than they do among adults.

Mike H and Ms. Rowena, you both have a valid point. I was one one the letter writers to Margo in November, and one of the regulars here made comments BTL which were so very wrong because he/she totally misinterpreted the situation I described that I felt very uncomfortable responding back. Luckily the discussion in which I did participate took a different turn on the other Margo site.

Re: Lise Brouillette
I read this column daily and look forward to what you have to say on the posted letters. You may replace the "Annie's" some day or have a column of your own. I believe you are from Canada? Cheers then to a fellow Canadian :)

LW1: I think it's already decision-making time for you. If you can live with sharing your husband with someone else, then stay put, accept it, and find other things in your life other than him. But if you can't do that (and I couldn't do that if that was my wife), it's time to talk to a lawyer, file for divorce, protect yourself, and move on.
Even if he came back to you, could you ever really trust him again, or feel the same about him again ? I couldn't .
But that's a very personal decision for you to make.

LW2: I'm with you as well on this one. As a single dad, I taught my son the value of money by giving him a nice allowance, but making him spend his own money to buy his toys. He learned well, saved, and bought a new car for cash with his savings at 20 years old. You're doing your step-daughters a big favor.

LW1 - I know it's hard to do but I think the LW needs to help Clifford decide. Do all the lawyer and financail stuff and then show Clifford the papers he needs to sign for the divorce. I hope she doesn't just sit there and wait while Dickhead.....I mean Clifford.. decides what he wants.


LW2 - She was right. He is wrong. Let him be irked. No one ever died from irkness.


LW3 - We get it. Menopause. Lowered libido. Get it checked. Got it. Okay. Thanks. All I would ask is that you not use premarin or any other hormone replacement used from pregnant mare urine. Look it up.

LW2: I generally agree with you. However, I do wonder if the jackets were a "luxury item" or a genuine need. On the other hand, there are jackets out there that are a lot less expensive than 140 dollars.

Lise B. FTW

I had an uncle who died from irkness, Rick! Your insensitivity is grossly offensive.

Re: wkh & Twee
I think what Joyce meant was that if the husband sent her to the clinic to get hormone replacement therapy, then he doesn't need any himself, otherwise he wouldn't have had a complaint with her indifference!

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the commercial, but from what Joyce describes, I think the "humourous" point of it is that her husband was not the one she wanted to get her drive back for - which I don't find so funny.

@Ms. Rowena
Gee, someone pissed in your cornflakes this morning, bitter much? What difference does it make to you if we skip the 'What the Annies should have said" and play columnists ourselves? And guess what, sometimes the games gets real!

There have been many times when some LW came down BTL, and the LW is even sometimes one of us (see the 2012-02-05 thread). There are also times when some LW skips the Annies and comes down BTL directly - probably because the advice is generally much better. At least we don't butcher up letters to have an excuse to pile on the LW.

@Connie Johnson
Thank you kindly, you obviously don't agree with Ms Rowena! Yes, I am Canadian, and I live in Montreal. Hanging my head in shame for the HABS.

@Casey
Thanks!

Re: Casey
Post #18 - FTW, LOL!

LW1: Mike H. is right about this one. Think about this from his perspective for a minute: he's got it all. He's got his little chickiepoo to stroke his ego (amongst other things) and he's got you waiting in the wings.

Sadly, your situation is almost cliche because it happens so often. What you need to do is make him aware of the consequences of his actions. My advice, as is the Annies and almost everyone else's here, is to lawyer up and lawyer up BIG. Get yourself the most cutthroat, evil, sharky attorney that HIS money can buy.

Many many men have come back to their wives when the harsh reality of property division is thrust in their faces.

Now to a couple of other issues:

1. Chickipoo is in the process of getting a divorce: Make sure HER husband knows about the affair. Yes, it's possible he does, it's also possible he has only a suspicion of it but no proof. He needs to know for sure that it is for some leverage in his child custody (if applicable) and spousal support fights.

2. You say "I know I can be difficult, but he's not perfect, either." Honey, you don't say if that's the reason he's giving for leaving , but let me put your mind at ease. You being anything does NOT justify him breaking your marital vows.

3. "He says he doesn't know whom he wants to be with, but he spends all his time with his girlfriend, so I don't have much of a chance of getting him back. " Um. Do you really want him back? And if you do want him back, can't you find creative ways to have contact with him? "Cliffy, we need to talk about the house. Can you swing by this evening?" " Cliff, the kids are going to stop by tomorrow, it would be great if you could come by for a family dinner" "cliffypoo, I need some advice on how to handle __________ (fill in crisis of the day). can we meet for drinks to discuss".

Even if you really want to get Cliff back, lawyering up, getting those divorce papers (including the reality of the costs, and the property division) in his hands is CRITICAL. Let's say he does come back: do you want to go through this again the next time he hires a hot young secretary? I don't think so. PS: I highly doubt this is his first affair. I would talk to past secretaries or hire a private I to investigate.

Okay, I'm dumb about something (quit snickering everyone)-what is FTW?

@Joyce, #2, right on. I just do not understand the parents who want to do *everything* for their children -- and then turn around to write in to the Annies all bewildered when their 20-year-olds are still living at home and not getting jobs or going to school!

My parents helped me to open up my first savings account when I was in 2nd grade, if I remember correctly. Any Christmas or birthday money I got, I would maybe spend half and deposit half. While it didn't make me rich by any stretch (we're talking about maybe depositing $5 - $10 at a time), it still taught me a lot about managing money, and I was able to save up to buy special things for myself from time to time.

I still remember the excitement of looking at my little bank passbook and seeing the numbers growing and trying to understand interest.

@jar8818 - FTW = "For the win!"

@Casey, #18, I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle. However, I have a cousin who suffers from an incurable virus she picked up in Germany that tragically causes her to be insensitive on a regular basis, and I think your calling such things "grossly offensive" is really callous and uneducated.

To clarify the commercial a little more--- it is more like an INFORMERCIAL. Like the 1-800 CALL ME HOT, GET A LAWYER, not written in the form that commercials with medical information is shown as. More than cheeky. IF YOU COME TO THIS PLACE YOU TOO CAN BE A HOTTIE, etc. Like a Laurel and Hardy spoof--or the WHO'S on first, no Whos on 2nd---What is on first.
The commercial is never on during prime time night hours. Only daytime when you get talk shows, etc. It is on universal channels. Not sure if it is a Minneapolis business or a CHAIN.

I don't get all the "lawyer up" "show him the consequences" talk. Why on earth would she want to coerce someone into staying in a relationship? Why would anyone want to coerce anyone to stay via lawyering and money when the person didn't want to be there? Show some dignity, divorce him, and move on.

Usually I'm one who believes 99% of male (men and women cheat in our society for verrrrry different reasons) marital infidelity is a blip on the radar in an otherwise successful marriage (other women are not near as important as they'd like to pretend) but when your husband is telling you he plans to go set up shop with sweet young thing, well, there ya go. That's a whole different ball of wax from "I was horny, she was there, you and I never have sex (the way I like, in the position I like, as often as I like)" etc.

Re: Joyce/MN: Hey, the "Who's on first" routine was not Laurel & Hardy! It was Abbott & Costello.

My first savings account was also as a 2nd grader, becoming a checking account upon graduation. Once a week we could buy a savings bond stamp for our booklet, when full, I took it to the bank. To send it in for the bond would have made the $12.50 a $25 bond. I could understand the cash value, so put it in the bank.

My own children's and grandchildren never had the option for their bonds. They are put away. Upon birth, my f-i-l put $1000 into Lutheran Brotherhood for them. This built up by age 18 to over $20,000. Their own savings went into an account, they watched the markets, one bank sold CDs at $100. Another higher rate at $500. They learned to move their money around to all 3 banks in town as well as watching the LB money. Learned to read the market in the paper, calculate what they were 'worth' that day. They don't trade in the markets now. It was fun back in the 80's when 15% was the going rate on CDs. They made a huge amount to re-invest.

The flip side? All 3 sons earned the top scholarship in the community when graduating for their community and church volunteerism award. Given by our main bank. Each got $4,000--$5,000. They used their skills and donated back into the community, the favorite was the Mary's Place--a homeless shelter in Minneapolis which housed women and children and fed thousands. Coordinating and gathering clothing and taking it down (3 hrs) and working where they legally could for their age (homeless housing must be 18). MY RULES of the house were if they left their clothing on the floor, they went to the box LABELED MARY'S. They were careful about what they did not put away but they never took out of the box what went in.

We always thought we were upper middle class. Sad joke is we are upper lower class. Never felt that one coming. Never changed us at all. And we are out there doing what we can every day for someone who has less.
My grandchildren have savings accounts here and at home. They also have their money jars. When they go see their uncle at the store--he gives them an option--$1.00 each for a treat, or they can put it in the money jar. Most of the time it goes to the money jar. And then to the bank when they get about $30. in it. Have to keep the idea current and fresh. They get to go in the back to watch their change be counted. They are always asking for projects to make some money. 4 black walnut trees in my yard yield lots at 1 cent per nut I DON"T HAVE TO PICK UP makes it their money. Using the pooper scooper for the yard also gets money. The wonderfully little snow this winter took away the shovelling factor, but she can lawn mow this summer. The orchard needs fruit pick up, and their biggest stash came from their county fair premiums last august. Both in the $60-75 range. Blue ribbons pay $2.50 each and they work hard on entries all year. All crafts, photography, gardening, baking, sewing, crafting and canning supply entries and ribbons.

They learn at the same time. the 9 yr old canned and entered peaches, cherries, apples and pear sauces this year. Learning techniques is a life time skill. Meaning I am right next to them as they learn. Taught her CADD on the computer last year and she made quilting designs which got blues. Her purples were her baking. (My purple was in photography.)

The 5 yr old is learning to make paper dolls and decorating. She wants to be an artist when she grows up. If she makes money on some kits she can put together for her kindergarten class---more power to that.
All because of a few saved coins---the thrill of the passbook.

Re: Van Wickle
That was in addition to the other stuff---I meant to put in A&C besides. Our local radio station runs their 'stuff' on a regular basis. L&H too.

Ms. Rowena -- I'm not sure why you care if some folks at the ol' BTL secretly wish they had their own advice columns, or even why you interpret it that way, but if it amuses you to think so, then I guess it's all good.

LW1 -- I'm not sure why you want him back. The advice you are getting, both from the Annies and the BTL is good. Lawyer up -- but also "counselor up" so you can figure out what YOU want.

LW2 -- As others have (I believe) unanimously noted, you are right and your husband is wrong (unless, of course, there's a whopping piece of your letter missing that explains that you also make them go in halfsies for food and water). But what no one is addressing is the fact that you are the stepmom -- which shouldn't matter, but it does. Even after 12 years, your husband may be more irked at you making parental decisions without him when they are HIS kids, than he is about what that decision was, particularly as the decision sounds like a perfectly rational one. In fact, assuming the jackets were luxury items (and the fact that one of them chose not to buy them indicates that they were), I'm wondering why you even paid for HALF of the cost, since the girl had enough to buy the jacket and still have money left over!

Now, playing Devil's Advocate, just because it's fun to do... there is also the possibility that while the Annies and the BTL are all assuming that you only do this with luxury items, you actually are doing this with necessities, as well. Indeed, part of the problem may well stem from you and your husband having a different definition of what is a necessity and what is a luxury.

Some parents, for example, see paying for college (room, board, books, tuition -- even spending money) as a necessity, while others would see that as a luxury. I had a friend whose parents easily could have paid for the whole kit and caboodle, but instead they made her pay her entire way through college because they thought it would teach her the value of the dollar and build character and make her "own" her education (i.e., she'd be more likely to work hard in school if she had to pay for it herself). In reality, what it did was limit her options -- she could have gone to a much better school with a better reputation that would have helped her land a better job when she finished, but in order to avoid going too deep into debt, she went to a local commuter college that didn't offer nearly as many opportunities or resources and didn't have much of a reputation. The end result: she got a lesser education, got a lesser job, it took her longer to finish because she had to work nearly full-time to afford it, and she was in debt when she finished.

My parents, who basically made the same amount of money as her parents, wanted me to be able to focus on school instead of focusing on being able to afford school. But they also wanted to teach me the value of the dollar and contribute toward my education. They paid all the big-ticket expenses (room, board and tuition). I paid for books and other out-of-pocket expenses for entertainment, etc. I could usually pay for all of this by just working summers and holidays. When my finances got low, I would occasionally take a part-time job to tide me over. I got a great education and a great job, I finished one semester early (saving my parents BIG BUCKS), and I was debt-free when I graduated.
I know lots of people who had to pay their own way through college, and it's not the worst thing that could happen, obviously. And, in situations where the kid is just partying and not doing well in school, I think the idea of making them "own" their education is the right way to go.

But, IMHO, if parents have the ABILITY to help a child get an education (and that child has both the aptitude and attitude to do well), then I think that's a really worthy investment in their children's future. But that's getting off topic. The point is, (and again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here -- I really agree with everyone else that the LW was right), perhaps this husband and wife have different definitions of what is a luxury and what is a necessity, and perhaps this husband wants them saving that Christmas money for college, because he doesn't believe he's going to be able to pay for all school expenses, but he CAN afford to buy the occasional $140 coat.

Before someone says, "well, if dad would stop buying $140 coats, maybe he could save up the money for college tuition..." let me again say that I'm playing Devil's Advocate mostly because it's fun -- but also because, given what we have learned about how much these letters sometimes get edited, and given how we know LWs sometimes put themselves in the best possible light and aren't totally honest, we don't know for sure what all is going on here, so offering an "alternative reality" might be valuable.

I should clarify that Mary's Place is 3 hours drive 1 way from our home.

Re: Joyce/MN: I was reading in a hurry and misread your phrasing!

Rick: Thanks for the warning about Premarin. It is horrid stuff indeed; the production of it causes tremendous suffering to horses. I wish more people were aware of this.

WARNING - INSENSITIVITY ALERT...
I'm gonna hop right on to judgemental here and now! What kind of 23 year old "woman" going through a divorce is interested sincerely in a man in his 50'S? If LW's husband married at (what I consider) the relatively young age of 20, he is at least 56...roughly 10 years from retirement!

I may be in my mid 40's, but I remember 23 well enough. A man my father's age would have been in his 40's...that would have been creepy to me. A man in his 50's? Gosh, more like a grandfatherly or elder uncle figure. At 23, I had lived away from home for 5 years, supporting myself with no financial assistance from my parents, but I still felt like a kid just figuring my life out. I feel for the LW, her poor befuddled husband must have lost his "head" to think that a young person that age could be anything more serious to him than a fling...

For my money, Rick is dead-on with his moniker for the straying spouse.

A 50 something with a 23 year old... I just threw up a little.

scrappy:

I'm with you, major major creep factor. Yik! Blech!

But, they are both getting what they so richly deserve.

LW1 - Not only should this woman see a lawyer, but also visit her local clinic to be tested for STDs. God only knows where else he's been, prostitutes, etc. - he could have been cheating for a long time, and with multiple partners.

@Mike #25, Ohh, I've heard of that virus. It's called ‘ignorance' isn't it? That's a beast. I'm sorry to hear about your cuz.

Re: scrappy

Two words for you on why that 23 year old is latching onto "gramps"

MEAL TICKET

I do wish I had my own advice column, Ms. Rowena! It would be fun. “Casey's Corner” or “Casey's Chat” or “Consorting with Case” I could give sassy advice for the working girl, peppered with quotes from Sex and the City and other girly shows. I don't know. I'm still working out the details.

Unfortunately, no one's (or noone's) willing to give me my own column. Thus, I come here and spout my own advice (that I'm fairly certain, no one reads) and I read other posters' advice and comments. Sure, I'm not saving the world, and am definitely wasting time, but it's fun. I, also, feel like I “know” the posters on this site. Sure, I don't really know them, and for all I truly know, Mike H. could be a teenage girl posing as a gay man. Or Lise B. could actually be a powerful CEO of some multi million corporation. But it doesn't matter. I enjoy reading their comments, as well as many, many others.

My point, and I do have one, is this is my entertainment throughout the workday that also acts as a mini-community. If you don't like it, and you don't like what people are posting, then please, I beseech you, don't read it. Just let us enjoy our little BTL. Now excuse me, Judge Judy just said something I don't agree with and I need to yell at her.

LW3:

I think in the past we've seen excellent posts from commenters BTL about other remedies than hormones including herbals and dietary suppliments. I wish the Annies would print those types of suggestions as well.

I guess the bottom line is that a trip to a specialist is in order when libido goes walkin' out the door. It really isn't something to ignore: a healthy person has healthy appetites. If a person suddenly stopped wanting to eat, everyone would say they need to see a doctor. It's really the same with sex in many ways. You may not want to have sex all the time as you get older, but if you completely lose the urge, then you should look into why.

One of my favorite role models is in her 90s and still going at it (and proud to tell us about it!). In her opinion, it's what has kept her young.

Uugghh, there's so much pollen in the air I'm coming down with acute irkness.

(haCHOO!) excuse me.

Re: Casey
"Now excuse me, Judge Judy just said something I don't agree with and I need to yell at her."
Hee hee hee ho ho ho HAW HAW HAW HAW!

Hey, come over to Delphi, you can have your little advice corner there! Serious.

#40, OMG casey what u said = not cool, that was totes my secret and now i'm srsly bummed. :-(

I know I keep harping on this but it's not necessarily "meal ticket." She's 23 and has some kids. Is going through a divorce. Likely because baby daddy isn't super mature, or because she's a cheater and baby daddy is pissed. (Usually when a woman cheats, the marriage ends).

Have you guys tried dating men under, oh, 35 or so lately? :-/ Yeah. That's all I have to say about that. I was trying it 10-15 years ago and if you're a grown up woman with children it's miserable. They want to go to clubs, wear cologne, think they all deserve to be dating Kim Karashian, expect lots of evenings and drinks out.

I wanted a guy who understood I worked all day, who wanted to come home, have a nice steak and split a bottle of wine, watch CSI, have sex and go to bed. I wanted a guy who understood Tantrums Happen. I wanted a guy who got that our weekend dates were going to be going to Family Events. Sure we could go out clubbing once in a while but not like the single and child free do. Where I live, the overwhelming majority of educated men under 40, let alone 35, do not have children. And aren't interested in playing daddy to ones that are not theirs.

If you've been married to a young guy who is still acting footloose and fancy free, and particularly with the low wages that come with being young and just starting out, I can tell you it's a goddamn relief to go out with a guy who knows how to pick up the check, open your door, doesn't talk in rapspeak or pretend he's a US African American, drives at a reasonable speed in a vehicle that accomodates car seats, doesn't smoke weed, and has enough experience to know how to be a good lover. It helps get over that "EW! OLD!" complex REAL fast.

Now she may just be a vapid opportunistic slut. Or she may be appreciating someone else to share the load. Who knows. But the problem here is not her. She's not the one who made vows to LW1. The problem is the husband.

The cross-generational mating thing is pretty much in my ICK column too - BUT - different strokes, and all that. Some women really are attracted to an older "father" figure - so okay. Then there's Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn - and they've been together and presumbably happy for nearly 20 years. People shouldn't assume it's automatically the sugar daddy syndrome. Remember Casals (maybe I'm misspelling it) the great cellist? His wife was his granddaughter's age and she couldn't do enough for him.

So back to advice, because we're all such great advice givers down here - LW needs to haul butt outta there. It's over. She just needs to heed the warnings about protecting herself financially.

wkh -- LW never says that the 23-year-old secretary/girlfriend has kids, only that she's getting a divorce, and that LW's husband spends all his time with her. LW has adult children. My bet is that the 23-year-old has no kids, only starry-eyed adoration for her boss.

I wouldn't say she looks at him and sees "meal ticket," exactly. But I do think she looks at him and sees "security",and "Daddy figure" along with a side of "Take THAT" to her soon-to-be-ex. Particularly if the reason he's soon to be ex is because he cheated on her.

wkh -- LW never says that the 23-year-old secretary/girlfriend has kids, only that she's getting a divorce, and that LW's husband spends all his time with her. LW has adult children. My bet is that the 23-year-old has no kids, only starry-eyed adoration for her boss.

I wouldn't say she looks at him and sees "meal ticket," exactly. But I do think she looks at him and sees "security",and "Daddy figure" along with a side of "Take THAT" to her soon-to-be-ex. Particularly if the reason he's soon to be ex is because he cheated on her.

@Mike - comment #25

How insensitive of you to suggest that an entire country (Germany) is responsible for the virus your cousin contracted! Your cousin is the responsible party for her own actions and if that causes her to contract a virus, then she is the one at fault. By trying to blame a soveriegn nation that has contributed so much western culture, I find your comment to be offensive and uneducated!

Hey! Maybe you caught that virus from your cousin.

@Scrappy - comment #34

I bet reaction to your comment will unfold along gender lines, with most women going "EWWWW!!' and most men thinking "This guy is my idol! Go dude!!"

Re: Ms. Rowena

>>when someone starts addressing the letter writer directly, I can't help but wonder if they also talk to those people they see on their TVs!<<

What's wrong with that? You mean you don't? I do that all the time. :) Radio, too.

And Joyce/MN--you've mentioned paper dolls more than once. Have you ever seen Mary Englebreit's magazine? It's out of publication right now, but she used to always have a pull-out paper doll page. I've got a couple of year's worth saved, and I'm hoping I have a granddaughter (someday--a long way away) that will enjoy them.

Come on over to Delphi, Casey. Google "Advice Columns Fanatics, Delphi" and we should be at the top of the list. Nobody cares if somebody talks too much about a column or goes off on a rabbit trail.

Re: Casey - So sorry. I didn't know. Please forgive. :-)

Lw1: I suspect the 23 year old is a gold digger, so I'll echo the advice others are giving: see a lawyer asap and protect your financial interests.

Maybe Bitey Fish should have an advice column. Bitey could give a lot of good advice.

Bitey, you SHOULD have a column. Now, to find the right name..."Bits by Bitey"?
I already have a name for Lise's column: LIStEn to LISE. :-)

If LW1 is ambivalent about ending the relationship, she should certainly take her time. I have no doubt that her feet have been knocked out from under her about this news. While she doesn't need to rush to definitive action, she should (as almost everyone has pointed out) rush to protect herself legally...and possibly medically too (in case of STDs).

However, she should also remember the many lessons of raising children. What enables bad behavior? Making the behavior soooo easy to keep doing. Facing no real consequences.

Why should he end this exciting new relationship with a young "hottie" (who knows what she really looks like...but she's a young 'un) when the wife is just waiting in the wings to see what HE wants to do?

My vote is for: Move on with your own life. Go out and try to have some fun. You don't have to go on dates; just go out with friends. Do NOT be at his beck and call. Don't initiate contact with him. When he wants to make contact, maybe be just a little too busy to fit him in. Let him swim around in the [cess] pool that he's created and really get a feel for it. Who's to say who will end up with whom in the end? But don't just wait for him to "choose." He chose you 36 years ago. Now he wants to keep his options open???

Lise B and Joannkathyrn: Thanks for the invite :) I've actually tried to get on before, but it's blocked at my work :( I really like you guys and really think I would like Delphi. I'll just have to stick to the Creators site for now!

Re: wyochick

again, best post on this issue today!

@55: Lol! That definitely made me smile.

and sorry, Mike. I had to totes out you :( Srry!

@wkh (#27) -- you asked why people were suggesting the LW get a lawyer. I can't speak for other posters who suggested it, but I know that I suggested it on the theory that she almost certainly should divorce him, and she'll want a good lawyer to make sure her interests are protected. But I am TOTALLY with you regarding efforts to try to get him back -- personally, if my husband cheats on me and then isn't sure what he wants, that will only make me VERY SURE of what I want -- a divorce. I'm not interested in "showing him there are consequences" as a means of getting him back -- I'd only be interested in showing him there are consequences to pissing me off and doing wrong by me!

Having said that, however, I know some people DO want their spouses back despite infidelity. Some of them want them back simply because they feel like the rug's just been pulled out from under them, and what they really want is for it to never have happened at all. What they really want is their LIFE back, and that life included their spouses. Still others just don't want to give up on a marriage that has lasted that long. This is why I suggested she also "counselor up" -- get some professional help so she can determine what she REALLY wants. Does she really want her husband back? Or is it just possible that she could be very happy -- possibly even happier -- without him? Right now, she may be so reeling from the shock that she's not seeing straight and can't imagine a happy ending that doesn't end with her getting her old life back, represented by getting HIM back. If/when she discovers that there is a life for her beyond him, and that that life can be as good or better, THEN she can make an informed decision about whether she still wants him back.

But either way, since it's not entirely up to her -- obviously, he has to WANT to go back to her, too -- it's very possible her marriage is over, whether she's willing to take him back or not, so she needs to get a lawyer to protect her interests, and she likely needs counseling to help her find her way toward a happily ever after without him.

gosh my bad I just assumed she had kids. Couldn't see why else someone so young would be married, and even if she wasn't married because of pregnancy usually people who get married so young tend to follow quickly with babies so I guess I just ASS-U-MEd... ooops. Still, never underestimate the appeal of a guy with his shizzle together.
BUT.... although I do harp on how it's not always daddy issues or looking for a meal ticket and that yes some young ladies DO want older men (although, let's be real, they're usually seeking George Clooney and Harrison Ford, not Your Average Fat Balding Middle Aged Dude) I do realize a lot of times it's a very messed up young woman who wants that and that the majority of young women are looking to date someone no more than 5-10 years older at most (some even find 10 years too much!).
Still, LW1 should figure out what she wants and how to get there, and not worry about Clifford the Big Red Dope.

Re: scrappy

nanchan was right with what she said. Although the two words that came to my head were:

CHA CHING!

Perhaps Clifford is the CEO or VP??

I once worked for a man who was in his early 50's, quite heavy and rather ugly. He was banging his beautiful, hot 22 year old secretary. She was getting paid nearly $90 grand, got to come in late and leave early and take 2 hour lunches. Well, his boss eventually found out about the massive pay raise and barely working any hours and fired the both of them. We found out she stayed with him and we were surprised...until he couldn't get a new job and then she left. Her meal ticket and cha ching ran out!

Re: Michelle

Yep..... I have worked at a highly political company and one executive was publicly fired for having affairs with his executive assistant, an HR assistant, two of his VPs, among others. I left the company because the executive assistant had two groups of people in her view: those who knew about the affair that she would give anything to, and then those of us who knew nothing and we got nothing. I knew something was wrong, but couldn't put my finger on it. I was literally working 16 hour days at that job, with no overtime pay, because it was so demanding. At one point, I was in the elevator with the head of accounting and I was joking that since I did so much work from my bedroom (online all the time and on call for emergencies) that I should be able to write off my bedsheets on my tax returns as a business expense.

What I DIDN'T know was that the executive sleeping with all these people (I didn't know it at the time) was in the elevator, heard it and ran out of the elevator at top speed. At the time, my dad was really sick and I ended up leaving shortly after Dad died (life is too short to work with idiots). When the news broke of the executives affairs, I heard about it on the RADIO it was that public.

This executive was not hot to look at, he wasn't even particularly smart (I thought he was an idiot, so did my immediate manager who also left right after I did), he had NINE children with his wife... but he had power and presumabley some money at the time (although I'm sure that divorce settlement took care of at least half that) and these women lined up to warm his.... bedsheets.

The ultimate irony? ALL of these women he was sleeping with (voluntarily, they all admit now) participated in a class action lawsuit against the company and WON.

Don't you just love it! Nothing like a gold digger to find out a way to get even more GOLD. LW 1's husband should watch out!

LW1--"He says he doesn't know whom he wants to be with, but he spends all his time with his girlfriend..." It's called not buying the cow because the milk is free. You're either the most naive person who ever lived, or the world's biggest doormat. Why would you want your cheating husband back anyway? Because being with him is comfortable and safe? Please! Life is too short. It's time to stop waiting around for your erstwhile husband to figure out that a 23 year old has about as much in common with him as a dog does with a cat. When he's finished having his fun (e.g., when this girl eventually dumps his old ass) and he comes crawling home to you, you'll set a precedence that you're always waiting in the wings no matter what and he'll proceed to find one naive young woman after the other to play hero to, leaving you miserable time and time again. What you need to do is go see a lawyer and begin protecting yourself. Gather up as much information as you can about your husband's finances and also document his affairs. As Ivana Trump once advised the first wives in 'The First Wives Club': don't get mad, get everything!

LW2--"My husband was irked that I required them to pay half. He prefers that they have minimal financial pressure so they can concentrate all their time and effort on schoolwork and not worry about getting a job." Oh please! Your husband is wrong. I think you have the right idea by teaching your girls about financial responsibility and personal accountability. People appreciate things more when they've worked hard and earned them. People who have things repeatedly handed to them don't. Go to any neighborhood filled with blocks of rental houses and you'll see my point illustrated perfectly. The homes are run-down and the tenants couldn't care less because they'll simply leave to find a fresh new home to ruin. After all, it's not their property, why should they care? After twelve years, you've earned your step-daughter's respect as a parent and you need to have a chat with your husband so as to align your core values so that your husband doesn't undermine these important life lessons by swooping in and handing his daughters everything their hearts desire or rescuing them from every perceived crisis. I worked part-time jobs starting when I was 15 years old and I always had pride in having my own bank account and being able to buy my own things. Doing this from a young age; the life lessons learned doing this have proven invaluable, even to this day. Keep doing what you're doing mom; your girls will thank you one day!

I was a kid who was raised by middle class parents who were doing well. I never wanted for anything. I got a car when I was 16 and my father always made sure my gas tank was full. My parents told me that I didn't need to work as long as I did my schoolwork. But the thing is, I watched them go to work everyday, and I wanted to work. I couldn't wait to get my work permit and start my first job as a hostess. When I got my first paycheck, I was thrilled, then I went to college and worked ever since. What I don't understand is, why don't the girls at least want to find a job? I can see the stepmom's concern, because it sounds like these girls are a tad lazy. The stepmom did a good thing, in my opinion, by making the girls make choices based on what options they had. The father needs to a little less pampering.

Bitey fish - i think your weird, get a life dog.

Bitey fish - i think your weird, get a life dog.

Bitey fish - i think your weird, get a life dog.

OMG!!!! Pink is reading BTL! I *love* your music! Let's get this party started!! Woooohooo!

(But, Pink, what the heck is a "life dog"? I know of guard dogs and police dogs, is this like a dog that works in an ambulance?)

Re: AWC

Yes Mike, Germany has contributed a lot to Western Culture,,,,Aushwitz, Bergen-Belson, Dauchau,,,, should I go on? The Germans have always been a sensitive crowd.....

Ohh :( Mike H. showed his true colors. He's not a teenage girl. A teenage girl isn't going to know who Pink is.. she's all like old and stuff. Damn. I'll figure out your true colors some day!

Re: Lise Brouillette

Gee, I'm surprised you went easy on the guy (comparably speaking) without explicitly calling him a dog that f***** up with his more beautiful woman than his wife could ever dream of being.

I know the woman must be horribly ugly and never had any desirability ... but I suggest that she run (and break every speed law there is on the books in doing so) to her nearest divorce attorney and get rid of her philandering husband. He's sending a message that he simply doesn't want his wife anymore ... but now it's time to play the rest of the game on YOUR terms. He started it, YOU finish it!

Re: Michelle
"a man who was in his early 50's, quite heavy and rather ugly"
There are women for whom there is no aphrodisiac like the proximity or power and a fat bank account.

@Chris
"The homes are run-down and the tenants couldn't care less because they'll simply leave to find a fresh new home to ruin. After all, it's not their property, why should they care? "
This is unfair. Not all tenants are low-class destructive orcs who ruin everything they touch. In fact, most tenants are not like that at all, and take perfectly good care of the place they rent for the simple reason that they LIVE in it.

@wkh
You're right, it could be about other things besides ka-ching. But it seems to me that a 23 year-old would have her pick of men twice her age, she didn't have to go for one who's old enough to be her grandfather - and married at that.

@Maggie
"Remember Casals (maybe I'm misspelling it) the great cellist? His wife was his granddaughter's age and she couldn't do enough for him."
When the man is a genius or a virtuoso, it's a different thing. That would have its own appeal, especially if the woman is working in the same field.

And Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn... She was the adoptive daughter of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen was her boyfriend. He jumped from the mother to the daughter. Yrrrch.

@Mary Ann
LOL!

@Casey
Oh yeah, and no one at Delphi counts the lines of a post or complains bitterly about how many people's posts you answer. You can get into every conversation and answer a post that's six months old if you want.

Re: Casey
Mike H's true colours: rainbow.

@Bobaloo
I treat profanity like cayenne pepper - I reserve it for special occasions and use it sparingly. ;-)

Re: Joannakathryn
I finally added BOOK to paper dolls when googling and on Ebay and NOW found more of what I was searching for. I want to make my own templates so the girls can design their own. I loved doing that as a child--maybe that is where my design and sew thing came from. And my girls LOVE my fabrics and sewing machine. Went to JoAnn fabrics tonight and they have beautiful textured FELT squares now--so our dolls will be wearing the latest. Sewing doll clothes like my grandma had me doing for Barbie is rather hard at their age. Expectations of wearable was not that when I was small. Glad for a piece of fabric I could cut head and arm holes in and call it a dress.
I think I ran across what you had mentioned in a google. Also Amazon had stuff but more expensive. Found some things on a free teacher site for classrooms.
As the art director for VBS at church for 16 years, I used to use alot of things like this. NOT been the director about 8 years--got out of the loop. I look for freebies where I can.
Anyway, goal is for the 9 yr old to have many models and make the outfit for each to attach permanently. The 5 yr old needs to change out outfits--so may use velcro or magnets on the doll and clothing. I used to be escited with a ream of paper and new crayolas--now the medium is much more techie as well as art pencils, etc.

Thanks. Joyce

@ Lise Brouillette

"This is unfair. Not all tenants are low-class destructive orcs who ruin everything they touch. In fact, most tenants are not like that at all, and take perfectly good care of the place they rent for the simple reason that they LIVE in it."

Obviously I was speaking in general terms and I stand by my statements. I myself rent and I was taught to leave things that aren't mine in the same or BETTER condition than I found them. Apparently you were taught this too! Not everyone received this instruction or chooses to abide by that concept. The fact remains that many neighborhoods full of rental properties, at least here in the U.S., are run-down and dilapidated compared to similar neighborhoods where people actually own the properties.

Re: Chris
In general you're right, but it really does depend.

On the one hand, everybody I know personally who rents, treats the place where they live well, because it's where they live. However, when I visited where I presently live, it was the only floor that was occupied, the second and third floors were vacant. The second floor needed extensive renovations because the tenants had been evicted for non-payment of rent and had trashed the place in retaliation. And... Except for the current ones, the neighbours I've had on the second floor, while they kept the place clean enough because they didn't want to live in a trash can, didn't care about someone else's property. I've been flooded so many times, I couldn't count them. One time, they overflowed the bathtub and left for work with two inches of water on the bathroom floor - that's what the landlord found when I called him to tell him it was raining in my bathroom and he used his key to get in.

On the other hand, we've all heard of homeowners whose property is an eyesore and who are getting in trouble with the neighbours and neighbours' association because they won't mow, won't weed, won't plug the gaping hole in the front yard where they started digging for a pool they didn't finish, won't clean the trash out of the yard, won't scrap the three dead cars in their driveway...

My late friend Dorothy's "husband" was an absolute house-killer. He would decide he needs to repaint a wall, then he would find cracks in the plaster and decide the plaster needs to be redone and he would take it all down. And then he'd get distracted by something shiny and the wall would be showing the wood lattices for the next ten years. I kid you not, his entire house was full of started-but-not-finished projects like that. When they put the house on the market, people would do a U-turn in the doorway when they saw the condition it was in.

That was Outremont, by the way, where the most expensive houses on the island can be found. Granted that he wasn't next door to Pierre Eliott Trudeau's mansion, but there are no seedy parts in Outremont.

The deadbeats will trash a place that's not theirs because they don't care since it's not theirs, and they'll trash a place that's theirs because, "hey, this is my property, I can do what I want, f*ck off". That was certainly Tris' attitude.

Thank God I was a teen in the 1970s and early 1980s. No one back then gave a damn about what you were wearing. And brand names weren't so stupidly expensive. I see the prices on teen clothes in the mall and I laugh. It would be cheaper to buy fabric, a sewing kit, and an instruction video for the kids. And if my kids ever screamed child abuse because of my cheapness, they would only be supported until they were 18. Then they would get no money after that, period.