Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

Dear Annie:
I'm having a problem with my 18 year old daughter. She graduated from High School June of last year. And that's it!! She's been home ever since. Although I did not push her much to get a job over the summer cause she said she wanted to "enjoy her summer" off before looking for a job. She has applied around but nothing has come about. She's not really into going to school for anything.(it was hard enough to get her through the last 4 years!) I know she's not making too much of an effort to "get out there" and get a job...even if it's flippin burgers! I know she's a bit shy..but so was I at that age...but I just knew you had to work after school...I don't know how to help her! Some of the job applications have brought about interviews...but then she get's an email back stating" thank you for your interest...(but basically your not up to our standards at this time) How does a young person now-a-days get hired?? It's frustrating!Do I threaten her to go live with grandpa....I'm sick and tired of coming home day after day to see her sitting on the couch...playing with her ipod! Thanks ----Desperate in NY

Lori: if you want the Annies to respond to this, you need to email your request to the email address given in the column.

However, I feel your pain (my daugher graduated in June too, congratulations!) so I'll put in a few words of my own.

Some kids know what they want right out of the gate, others do not. Mine has always known what she wants to do, but getting her through high school was a nightmare. She was horrifically bullied by classmates, and even misunderstood by some teachers. We were blessed that she found choir, which taught her discipline (6:30 am practices every day) and also gave her a safe place to go when the little jerks she was going to school with were mean to her. All through that nightmare, I kept telling her, college is different, you won't have to deal with these kids there. I made it clear to her from DAY ONE though, if you want to stay in this house after you graduate from high school, you have two options. Full time enrollment in college or a full time job. Due to a problem with her financial aid application, she wasn't able to get aid for fall quarter, but she still focused during that time (wrote a book in one month! and also worked part time stuff when it came her way) and helped me with my business. She started college, with no loans and money she earned herself, two weeks ago.

My point: You have to put your foot down. Six months is plenty of time to sit on a couch playing with electronical devices. The first place you could start (we do this) is weekly meetings. My daughter and I sit down every Sunday to go over the week and talk about plans. She is a very private person (unlike her mom!) and internalizes things because she doesn't want to worry me, but the meetings (usually at lunch, which makes it special) help a lot. We review the last week and then set goals for the next one. WE WRITE THESE DOWN. I have a day planner that I keep everything in and put hers in there as well. She writes them down in her own. It keeps us on track.

If your daughter won't respond to organization, then you have to give a timeline. Mine at this point would be about 3 months until you actually do throw her out. Demand to see a PLAN in the next week. Break it into babysteps (that works with almost everybody who is overwhelmed and recent grads can be freaked by all the pressures etc). For instance, say "Let's have you contact five potential employers this week and talk to the guidance counselor on Monday at the junior college". Getting specific about deliverables helps people out. If she won't do that, you'll have to kick her out.

I have friends whose kids went straight into college and dropped out (after spending a lot of their parents money), I have friends whose kids ran away and worked full time... kids come in all shapes and sizes and issues. What works for my daughter may not work for yours. good luck to you, and keep us posted.

PS: Getting her started at a junior college on the first two years (which is really just an extension of high school) doesn't require declaring a major. If your daughter decides to go to school, present it to her like that. You can look into online college courses or correspondence courses too. I think that's what turned my daughter around on college: she took a correspondence course and whipped through it. It gave her the confidence she needed to know she could succeed in college and so far she loves the experience.

Re: Lori

You are in the commentary here, which the Annies don't read and don't answer. But at least we posters WILL answer you for sure, and not in three months, and you will get more than one perspective, which is actually better.

About your daughter. You say she's had a few interviews and that nothing came out of it. It may be that her interview skills are zero. And, unless she's had coaching in the matter, she won't know how to answer the standardised questions to her advantage. Also, there are tons of jobs that are not advertised (the 'hidden" job market) and nobody's born knowing where to look for them. Check the local unemployment centre or Women's Centre in your vicinity for workshops on job-seeking techniques. It's a lot more complicated than it used to be. If there are no workshops being given in your area, I'm sure you can find plenty by Googling "job-seeking techniques".

Could she be made to consider enlisting with the military? That could well be an option, where she will be training in a career that is pragmatic and hands-on - not everybody likes intellectual activities and some people are much more physical.

Give her a deadline, and demand that she bone up somehow on job-seeking and interview techniques - essential these days. By a certain date, she either has a job or is registered to go back to school, or enlisted. Failing that, it's off to grandpa's.

Hope that helps. If you still want the Annies, click on "Write the Authors" right under the archives' calendar.Good luck!

Daughter should also be pitching in around the house, not sitting around with the I pod. Give specific jobs for her to do and revoke privileges if she fails to do them. No spending money either. Let her go earn that.

LW1 - Yikes. Let this be a reminder to the rest of us to not do business with family members who we know are "troubled", "stubborn" and who don't "like taking advice."

LW2 - I would think a lot of people would think that trashing the ex is supportive. LW2 should tell her friends and family very clearly what she finds to be helpful and supportive and what she would not like to hear. I'm sure they're only trying to help.

I think you tell your daughter that break's over, and she starts to work this week, even if it's at Target or Domino's. She may need a 'starter' job to give her some confidence. In the meantime, until she is employed, there's no internet, ipod, cable, nothing. (Just have cable in your bedroom, and keep the door locked.) If she wants to act like a little kid, you can act like a little kid's mean mommie. So, if she intentionally screws up her interviews, she's going to be sitting at home with nothing to do. Grandpa doesn't seem like a good idea just yet, since it's pretty easy for granddaughters to get things out of their grandpas.

Also explain to daughter that the reason she needs money quickly is that in June, 1 year from her graduation, she's going to be OUT of the house and on her OWN, so she needs money for apartments, utilities, etc. If she tries to argue, you are not interested, it's not negotiable, it's her job to learn to take care of herself, and you can't learn that sitting on the sofa. You will pay for any college tuition only after she has worked for at least 6 months, if you feel like doing that at all.

Lori, let me chime in here. Since your daughter is having difficulty finding her place, and her job interviews haven't produced a "real" job, I suggest you insist she does two things. One, enroll in a post-secondary institution - even if it's just to use the workout facilities - to keep her engaged with a peer group that will expose her to more motivated souls. Second, insist she find a volunteer position within your community - the local library, literacy council, food bank, animal shelter/rescue society, etc. - and puts in at least a certain number of hours per week. Not only will she gain valuable experience providing a service, but it can be added to her resume, AND she will meet people who will be excellent references when she applies for paid positions. Plus, it bears mentioning that sometimes the networking from volunteering can lead to a part or full time paying job. Good luck!!

@Lori

If all else fails, you can use my mother's tactics which motivated me to move out as soon as possible. Luckily for me she started when I was very young so by the time I was 15, I was ready to get the heck out of that house.

-listen to all her phone conversations. In this day and age, insist that they be on the land line so you can listen in and hear both sides.
-open all her mail and read it before she can. Yes, it's a federal offense in the US but my mom did it anyway.
-walk in to her room without knocking. Same with the bathroom.
-insist that she be home by 9pm on weeknights and midnight on weekends. Plus, you have to know who she's with. If you don't like that person or activity, she cannot leave the house with any money.
-rummage through her personal items and discard clothing, photos, music and other things you don't approve of.
-total phone talking time in a 24 hour day is 15 minutes. After that, you hang up the phone for her.
-no fast food. Only meals that you provide. Overcooked beef and turkey is best.
-the car's gastank is always empty so friends have to pick her up and take her places
-when her friends show up to pick her up, they must come in and get the Spanish Inquisition from you. Bonus points if you're weird and scare off her friends.
-she has no money for new clothing. She only wears what you buy her - outdated styles and irregular clothing from discount stores.
-you talk loudly throughout all of her TV shows. If she ignores you, you mute the TV and stand in front of it until she has a conversation with you.

LW1 why is your daughter asking you to invite someone not speaking to you?
This seems backwards.

@FAW LMAO!!!!! I agree that it would definitely be a motivator but it can backfire as well.

LW! My parents let me make my own mistakes. They set down ground rules that were reasonable (most of the time) I had to pay for my own gas but then I also went and got a job at the KFC. Learned a few lessons about scaggy bosses and went to a cinnamon bun shop (to date my favorite job ever). I learned to earn my own money and eventually found my place in the work world. It sounds like you need to be tougher than my parents but hang in there, and maybe put your foot down as suggested by FAW.

Sorry, thats commentator #1 Lori. Oops my bad!

@ MS Davie

Happy Birthday wishes, hope you have a great one !! Thanks for correcting me on the misquote. I've been over here (Germany) for so long (20 + years) that I can't think straight. Even my 18 yr. old son sometimes corrects me.
I came on board back in Sept. and I think you and some others, welcomed me. Then in Nov., how we got on the subject, I don't know, but you, Lise and other posters were talking about upcoming birthdays and how old they were going to be.

I was one of them as 60 was fast approaching, I was dwelling on the big "0". So I made a note of the birthdates as I thot it would be nice to wish the birthday girl/boy, a happy one. In the end, turning 60 wasn't so bad afterall.

LW1 - I'm confused. You say he hasn't spoken to you in two years but then you said you decided not to invite him to Thanksgiving because he ruins the holidays. That implies that he has been spending the last few holidays with you. But he's not talking to you at the same time?

Anyway...I assume you've tried to contact him to ask to talk things out and he ignores you. If that's the case, then I think you have no choice but to just let him be and hope that one day he wishes to speak to you again. if your daughter says something to you, I would simply say, "We're upset, too, but he's not speaking to us so we can't fix anything until he's willing to talk."

LW2 - I understand. When I got divorced, I had friends trashing him, too. Yeah, I know he was a bad guy but trashing him and telling me, "You were the best thing in his life and he ruined it!" didn't help. The next time someone tries to trash him, simply say, "I know you think trashing him helps, but it doesn't. Please instead be a friend and lend me an ear instead."

Re: Lori, some good advice to you so far in comments -- the only thing I'd add is to suggest that if she can't get a paying job, that she spend some portion of each week volunteering or at an internship. That way she's gaining valuable experience that could pay off in the next round of interviews. You should also have someone review her resumé and interviewing skills, especially if you say she's shy, that could be part of the problem. But times are tough and the job market is still very tight, and young people are being disproportionately hurt -- their unemployment rate is higher than the national average (which is also high). Still and all, do try to get her out into the world at least a few hours each week, the routine and activity will be good for her.

LW1: I'm a little confused about why your daughter isn't talking to her brother about this rather than you. I'm not a fan of the Annies' advice here, because I don't think such bad behavior should be rewarded or overlooked. Instead, perhaps offer a compromise -- don't apologize, but let the daughter know that you and your husband are willing to forget the incident if the son is willing to let it go. Otherwise, maybe another year or two of being "on the outside" will help him to learn a valuable lesson. Right now he sounds a bit too immature and still has some growing up to do.

LW2: Sorry to hear about your husband's infidelities. Often there's little that friends can do except express solidarity through "trashing the ex". It's almost a ritual. But its okay to gently tell them that "that isn't really what I need" -- they mean well and if you give them a little guidance about what kind of support you'd appreciate it, they'd likely adjust their style.

LW3: That's so unfortunate, and I hope your sad experience helps others to keep this issue in mind if any of their own parents or grandparents start to show serious degradation of their driving skills.

@ nanchan

Great post !! Hopefully, this will be helpful for Lori and pass on this info to her daughter.

My 18 yr. old son, who will be 19 when he graduates in June, was turned down by Luftansa. He took the online tests, passed, sent in a Bewerbung, they e-mailed him, said no and did NOT give a reason. He was confused as to WHY they didn't give him a reason. Anyway, he's thinking about attending the university in Oldenburg, would like to teach Realschule students. And, if this works out, perhaps doing his ausbildung (internship) at the school here in town. Since last July, he's been working in a restaurant, on the weekends. It isn't easy work, so I have to give him credit for not being lazy or afraid of hard work.

LW1--"feel we are being punished for his immaturity. How do we mend this terrible rift?" Of course you are being punished for 'Mark's' immaturity. That's the calling card of the stubborn as a mule know-it-all. In his mind, he did you a favor and you were ungrateful. Never mind the fact that he ignored the customer and did shoddy work that cost you more to fix. Frankly, your first mistake was mixing business with family. Haven't you ever watched 'The People's Court'? Everyone knows that such arrangements rarely end well. Your second mistake is kowtowing to your daughter. Why should you all be miserable and uncomfortable so she can pretend everything is hunky dory. Your third mistake will be to take the Annies awful advice to molly coddle Mark and go begging for his forgiveness on hands and knees. Give me a frigging break already! You've already done all you can to mend the rift in a calm and mature manner but 'Mark' can't let go of his pride and his enormous ego won't permit him to atone for his crappy treatment of you over the past couple of years. It's easier for him to act like a big baby and give you the silent treatment forever. Maybe one day he'll wake up and realize what a jerk he's been and come around with open arms. I wouldn't hold my breath.

LW2--You obviously do still need your husband, otherwise you would have left him after you found out about his numerous affairs. Instead of turning your "departure" into an epic miniseries why don't you just leave the bastard already and be done with it? I think we both know the answer to that question already.

@ Lori

"How does a young person now-a-days get hired?? It's frustrating!"

A young person has to be motivated to succeed in order to succeed. It's not enough to just fill out a job application and then shamble into the interview with all the enthusiasm of an automaton. Flipping burgers is not "just a job." Even fast food restaurants take pride in their service and seek out hard-working, enthusiastic employees who will show up on time, put a smile on their face, and work hard. It's a business, not a joke. Employers don't want someone whose just going through the motions or who is so shy that they rarely look up from the floor or collapses into a puddle at the slightest confrontation. My advice to you is to start pushing your daughter a little bit more. She needs to understand that as an adult, she has a responsibility to support herself. To do that she needs to put herself out into the world. It's unrealistic for her to assume she can just hide at home with mommy forever. My take is that your daughter is exceptionally shy. Start with baby steps. Get her to volunteer a couple of days a week doing something with children or the elderly. They are non-threatening and have a way of bringing people out of their shells. Not to mention the work can be tremendously rewarding. After a reasonable time, push for your daughter to look for something that pays. By that time, she may be interested in nursing or teaching. Good luck!

Re: Lori,
Telling her she either has to start college or get a job as a condition of living there is good advice; however, I want to you appreciate how hard it is to get a job right now before telling her this. I am not discouraging you from laying down the ground rules... I only want you to appreciate this. Your daughter probably is trying to get a job, or she would not be getting interviews. There are only so many places you can apply to in a day before you run out of places to put in applications, especially if you are doing this every day instead of letting it pile up into a one day event.

I am assuming your daughter has never had a job before of any type. The fact she only has a HS diploma limits her job search even more. Since she has no experience getting a job, she is probably over looking valuable places to check for jobs. Tell her to go to the WIN job center because they can help her with her job hunting skills and building a resume if a job requires this. They can also help her with her interview skills which she is probably lacking. If you are fresh on job hunting skills (as in, you recently had to hunt for a job), then help her out. She may believe it is limited to the newspaper when there are other avenues for job hunting as well.

Please appreciate this. I have two Bachelor degrees and I have been unable to get a job using either of them since graduation, and I have been hunting non-stop for TWO years!!!! I have had other people tell me I am unsuccessful because I am not "looking hard enough" and I cannot even begin to tell you how much this pisses me off. This comes from people who have been in the same job for well over a decade, so they have no appreciation for the current market. Everyone wants someone with experience, and if you only have a degree right now without experience, then you are royal screwed. I have had plenty of interviews, but only two successful hires during these past two years while looking for a job with my degree; however, one job laid me off within a couple of weeks and I had to quit the other job rather quickly because of questionable business practices at the small business (I didn't want to get caught up in something like that and then have legal trouble). The experience I have totals to about a months worth which does not even really count in the eyes of interviewers. I have gotten multiple jobs not involving my degree in order to pay the bills. I was laid off of my retail job in march of 2010 and with prior retail experience, it took me six months to get another retail job! I am not sure if I would have gotten one without any experience. Just appreciate the poor market and the fact your daughter really is looking, that is all I am saying.

Speaking of interviews, I am off to one right now so I'll have to comment on other posts later... hasta luego!

LW3: Needing him financially while she gets her ducks in order is different than needing him emotionally, Chris. She's known of the cheating for only 2 years, and spent part of that time trying to change herself to fix the marriage. It took her awhile to realize that this is beyond her power so she's turning to plan B -- leaving.

And she's going about it in a calm, rational way, extricating her finances and making a plan rather than throwing a few clothes in a suitcase and storming out to flop on her sister's couch, which her friends and family will be grateful for.

My guess is that she leaned pretty hard on her friends when she first learned of the cheating, probably again as she discovered the extent of it, and yet again with every new change she took up to try to hold her interest (what do you think? Does this shade of blond suit me, or should I go darker? Want to take a skydiving class with me? No? How about fantasy football?). And if she's smart, she hasn't shared details of her leaving, lest word get back to her husband.

Had this happened to her best friend, LW probably would have been trashing BF's husband herself, thinking she was showing solidarity. LW needs to let her friends know that she's glad to know they're on her side, but what she needs right now is [an invite to a movie? book club invite? job leads? dinner out with friend? cup of coffee and talk about how things are with friend? just a hug?] and NO more talk or questions about husband, thank you.

@ Lori, the other posters have all ready given you excellent advice.

Perhaps your daughter should also look at non-traditional unemployment opportunities. If she does an art or a craft, she could focus on selling some of those arts or crafts on etsy.com. If she does photography, she could look at selling some of her photos on a stock photo web site. If she likes the out doors, she can go ask the neiborghs if they want their lawn mowed. If she likes working with kids, she can take a short babysitter's CPR class (and, depending on your state, a short childcare class and background check, both of which tend to be fairly inexpensive) and put an ad up on Craigslist that she's looking to be a nanny.

Some times, when the opportunities aren't there, you have to create your own. But, even if none of the above suggestions I've listed are stellar successes they can still be used as resume bullets, networking opportunities and hopefully generate a little cash.

@Lori. I could just about write a book (and nearly did just now!) about problems your daughter could be having and things she could do. In two years of unemployment and underemployment, I have learned a lot. Too bad there's still no jobs!

You would do well to figure out the actual problem. You say she doesn't seem to be trying very hard, but she is getting interviews? By that virtue, she probably is putting forth more effort than you know- she's probably putting out at least 10 applications to get one interview. Went through that, with my father wondering why I wasn't "trying harder" and friends' parents sighing that I "had potential."

Is it that she doesn't know where to look? Is it that she has poor interview skills? Perhaps her resume needs reformatting or she's bad with cover letters? Maybe she was putting in real effort for awhile, but now she's frustrated and not doing as much? Before finding a solution, you need to know precisely what the issue is.

For me, it was a combination of things that have been tweaked over the past few years- my resume was poorly formatted, I was unaware of useful job sites, etc. My biggest issue was interviews. I probably had a good 20 interviews in one winter, with nothing materializing (and I never had that kind of problem in school!) I looked for interview coaches, but it seems in this city they're all for students, immigrants, or people on EI. Finally, a good friend who has done many interviews sat down with me and did a mock interview, and told me my answers were far too brief. I thought being concise would be a good thing, but by only answering questions in a sentence or two, I wasn't "selling myself" and I was giving the employers very little to work with as far as forming an opinion about me. Again, I never had a problem finding jobs when I was a student, this is something that came up when I returned from Korea, 22 and unemployed in the middle of a recession.

So going forward with your daughter depends on what is causing the problem. I agree with others that in the meantime, volunteer work is a good idea if she can find it (it's almost like finding a job now!), or something to get her out of the house. Unless you really think she isn't trying, don't get punitive (witholding phone, internet, etc.) To start with, less access to phone or internet will only make job hunting more difficult, and if she really is trying and getting nowhere, punitive measures will only ratchet up her frustration.

If you have connections, use them. If you have a friend who runs a restaurant or other business, see if they need anyone. When I went through a major lay-off two years ago, the people who found jobs quickest were the ones whose friend/uncle/dad's friend owned a place and needed someone to run the cash and sweep the floors.

Lori - if you know someone who could hire your kid or if you know someone who knows someone - ask them if they could give your kid a job. It's a very tough market out there, and many people I've known who got jobs did it because someone in the workplace was willing to speak up for them and set them apart from the crowd of applicants. My kid got her first job working for a friend of mine who owned a retail store. She got her second job at a small hobby store that she & her dad had frequented for several years, where the manager & staff had met her when she was there as a customer. Once hired, she was fine. It was job hunting that was hard for her. Good luck.

Some of us BTL should take LW2's advice and remember that saying things like "DTMFA" is not always helpful, or welcome. We should be building these people up, not tearing down their cheating partners.

Maria:

You are absolutely right about the state of the job market; I have certain experience and when I applied for such jobs, didn't even get a call. I job hunted for 19 months, and got 2 interviews. One just didn't work out and the other job, I found out months later, was put on hold. Thanks for not telling us.

My husband got laid off Dec. 31 and it's been over 10 years since he had to job hunt, so of course, he feels that I and my 22 year old son just weren't doing as well as we could have. Well, we told him that things are WAY different now. I'm sure he'll find that out soon enough.

Re: angoradeb I agree that Grandpa should not be an option, but at ANY time, because Grandpa has done his job; it is not his responsibility. We have our 14 month old grandson, and it is very tough. We love him dearly, but I am exhausted. It would be different if he was an orphan or his parents were not able to care for him, but that is not the case. His parents are college educated and make more money than we do, but their careers do not function with daycare as they work many times thru the night, and always long days. They live two hours away, so picking him up each day is not an option, he lives with us and goes home on occasion. The correct answer would be for them to make changes, even if it means less money, and we have told them this, but it falls on deaf ears. They are more concerned about the almighty dollar, and believe they are doing this for his future. In the meantime, we have given up our golden years. Refusing has done no good, they know we aren't going to turn our backs on him, and he has grown to love grammy and grampy very much and considers this his home. I'm telling everybody - just leave grammy and grampy out of it, or they become trapped out of love for the child. It's not fair, don't do it to them.

Re: Pam

I agree that gramps should not be an option for Lori. He's not the girl's parent.

Your story is very sad, for the parents. I was raised in good part by my grandparents and I feel much closer to them than I do my parents. I remember a time when I loved my mom more than anything else in the world but that has faded over the years. I miss my dad because he lives in China. But it's my grandparents I want to spend Christmas with, and to whom I go for advice.

I don't know how old you are, but my grandparents are still alive and kicking and I'm 25. Mind you, my grandmother was a young mother (19 when she had my dad) and my dad was fairly young when I was born (24). You will still have your golden years... they'll just be deferred for a while.

You may end up with a "golden child," too. I say this somewhat jokingly - but my grandparents have two kids, and me (and other grandkids, but they are much younger), and I am the only one who doesn't ask to borrow money or have them drop off / pick up my kids an hour away every day, or pet-sit while I'm away. I know they love us all equally and my dad and my aunt are wonderful people. I just get a chuckle out of them still mooching a bit off my grandparents. In some ways it is annoying - my aunt had a mild freakout when she learned that they were taking a trip over March break ("who will watch our four kids???").

Anyway, I was trying to be encouraging but now I think I'm just rambling!

Lori, my fellow posters are right about the job market/volunteer work. My daughter did a lot of babysitting and work for my friends as well: she also had a schedule and did most of the housework (that I will miss!), so all suggestions above are great in my opinion.

LW1: The problem is with your daughter, since you've already determined how to handle your son. I would take her to lunch and spell it out for her. Let her know the estrangement is not your idea, you reached out to Mark he hasn't responded. Remind her of some of the concrete things he has done in the past at gatherings that have made them unpleasant. Encourage her to keep a strong relationship with her brother and let her know you are open to a reconciliation. then leave it at that.

LW2: I learned a LONG time ago not to trash my friends's exes, because they often got back together with then! The only time I did was when they brought it up. Maybe you too are bringing up your husband a lot, complaining about him? Waffling a little on your decision? (the "I still love him" comment). Since you are still with this guy, your friends are probably trying to bouy you up to get the heck out of there. People in our society like to see instant results, so it IS hard for most people to watch you do this slowly. Try to understand that and stop talking about what you are going to do and concentrate on doing it. When you are ready to leave, THEN say, I have an apartment, have hired an attorney and am ready to move on. Then they will stop trashing your husband.

Lori:
As someone who has been through your daughter's side of the situation, I would say please try to look at all aspects of the situation before threatening to throw her out. High school does very little to provide young adults with a clear sense of what they want to do. Chances are, your daughter has no idea what she wants to do and is scared of choosing a job that she is convinced she will hate, only to be stuck in that job for years. She may be only applying to jobs that carry a higher degree of prestige than flipping burgers, only to be rejected because she is not qualified for these positions.

At that age, a person is still unsure of their identity and tend to think that your job says something about who you are. Only experience can tell them otherwise but it can be a huge hurdle.
So, start small. Ask her what she likes to do and how she wants to contribute to the world. Show her that she can get a part time job, she doesn't have to be stuck there forever but it will help her with her long-term goals. Ask her to come up with a few ideas of things she can do. Emphasize all of the positive aspects of having a job: meeting new people, learning new skills, expanding her world beyond high school, and yes.. the money too.
The point is, you can't go anywhere if you don't take a step off the couch.

Encourage her to go to a community college and take a couple classes. My community college experience was fantastic--it's not just high school part II, although it can be if you want it to be. I was able to do independent research and present at the state university research conference when I was a student at community college so the opportunities are there.

I have never posted before but this is an issue dear to me. I had no direction after high school and had no idea what I wanted to do. I had to realize for myself that I didn't want to be stuck in a clerk job. I bounced around to a bunch of different schools and finally graduated with my bachelor's degree, nearly eight years after I graduated from high school. But I needed a lot of life experience to figure out how I wanted to contribute to society.

I ended up doing something I NEVER expected (science and research) and I actually did really well in college. I did far better than I did in high school, and for the last two years I was going to school full time (doing honors coursework) and working two jobs. When I was 18, I wouldn't have even imagined that I could do that. Would have scared the crap out of me.

So yeah, push your daughter out into the real world, but take the time to understand what she is thinking. Don't try to correct any misunderstandings, don't try to prove anything to her.. just listen, offer her support and help her get into action. Show her that you want her to have a good life and you want her to build something for herself. Share your story of how things happened for you. It's really not an easy task, and even when we had jobs, most people I knew my own age were still living with our parents after college. (But don't lose hope.. our relationships with our parents tended to improve too.) Be patient because it will probably take some time.

You can threaten to kick her out but only do it if you need to, and ONLY if you are willing to follow through.

Lori - Do whatever you can to make your daughter's life in your house as miserable as possible. Anything. Start waking her up at all hours, walk around naked, listen to her phone calls, talk to her nonstop, ask disgusting peronsal questions....the world out there needs to start looking better than where she's at. Just a thought.

LW1 - You can't mend this rift. Only Mark can at this point. If your daughter is disappointed and doesn't get what's going on I'm thinking maybe you'd be better off getting both of these kids out your lives. You've raised some real charmers. Don't be held prisoner by your kids. You've done your job now live your life.

LW3 - Thank you for not talking about it anymore. As one of those people you talk to a lot about stuff like this we appreciate it. Just move on already. I'll support you when you move to your new place if you promise to stop talking about it. :-)

Re: Maria
I couldn't even GET a retail job in spite of 20+ years of experience, and specialised experience at that... Because I was too old. They want a sexy young thing first and foremost (everything else comes AFTER), because a f*ckable young body in the shop increases business. Sad, but true.

Good luck with the interview, hope for you it's the one!

Same here - I'm working today, the weather is not good and I have to de-snow the van before I can even leave. That's a lot of car to brush off. Gotta go. Toorooloo!

@Ms Davie
in case you didn't see it late last night on yesyerday's thread - Happy birthday again!

dear annie ive been with my common law husband 4 18 yrs he cheated on me back in august picked some girl up on side of road talked and texted her for two months telling her he loved her he finally took her to hotel on aug 5 2011 her boyfriend called his phone and i answered his phone and he told me everything all he could say is he was trying to be cool she was a one night stand all i do is cry ask myself what is wrong with me i am so sad and hurt dont know what to do please help

dear annie ive been with my common law husband 4 18 yrs he cheated on me back in august picked some girl up on side of road talked and texted her for two months telling her he loved her he finally took her to hotel on aug 5 2011 her boyfriend called his phone and i answered his phone and he told me everything all he could say is he was trying to be cool she was a one night stand all i do is cry ask myself what is wrong with me i am so sad and hurt dont know what to do please help

Lori, Please don't threaten to send your daughter to go live with Grandpa anymore. Why does Grandpa deserve to deal with your problem-daughter? He doesn't. We have a family member who has twice sent their derelict, no account child to live with an 80+ Granny and it is very troubling to us and even more so to Granny. It is disgusting for a parent to throw their problem on a grandparent. Grow-up yourself and handle your own problems. In our case, we had to step in protect Granny and not have this happen anymore.

Re: cindymiller

The Annies do not respond to the comments. If you wish to contact them directly, please e-mail anniesmailbox@comcast.net.

To answer your question, there may not be a single thing wrong with you. Some men are serial cheaters and your husband may be one of them. Or he may be going through a midlife crisis, and jumped at the opportunity to hook up with a young woman.

Whether your relationship is worth working on is up to you, and your husband. Have you confronted him? How did he react - as in, was he apologetic? Remorseful? Did he blame you? Relationships can recover from infidelity, but both partners need to be committed to it. If you are not, or suspect your husband is not, make like LW2 and get the heck out of there. A fresh start might be just what you need to rebuild your self esteem.

Re: Mandy
I completely agree. I dont' think it's fair for people to throw their kids out to live with elderly relatives (didn't even think to address that honestly, when I said throw her out, I meant on her OWN) unless they are going to help those family members. And I would never throw the daughter out without an exit plan. However, if the elderly parent needs HELP and the child can provide HELP, it's not an altogether bad option. As long as the family agrees, there is a contract in place (rules of the house like no parties, no drugs, etc and chores etc), and the child knows this is not going from one free zone to another, it could be beneficial in some circumstances.

L: It's so great you found your calling. I guess I'd like to address some things you talk about in your post that are somewhat directed at what I wrote. First of all, junior college is a great place to start but for some people, the word college is intimidating. AND the first two years of college ARE an extension of high school in that everybody working towards a bachelor's degree has to take the same set of classes, most of which have little to do with what they later determine to be their major. When I sat down with my daughter and we looked at the cost of the 4 year college she wants to attend, we decided to keep her here and to have her go through the required courses at the junior college (still pricey, by the way! Not cheap! Ours is as much as my first year of state university!) . We did this because she can 1) live at home and save money 2) pay half the cost for the same courses (all totally transferable, that's the big thing and you have to deal with that right up front) also 3) her grades from high school aren't good enough to get her into the college she wants to go to (see post 2) but the junior college she's going to has a guaranteed transfer policy and she will still graduate college very close to schedule.

Making her pay for her own college is something she has known about ALL HER LIFE and I think, and I mean no offense here, spending eight years of your life to "find yourself" at your parents expense is pretty selfish. Holy MACKERAL, if you had told me when I was 18 that I would be doing what I'm doing today, I'd tell you that you need to put the crack pipe down. BUT, I worked a full time job and paid for my own car at 16, paid my own way through college (even though my parents have money), worked in college, changed majors 2 times, paid for my own apartment and clothes. About the only help I got from my parents was they paid for my car insurance and that's because my father owned his own law firm and we all were put on his business insurance plan.

My point? As parents (which I can't see that you are, but maybe you are), we have an obligation to raise our children to become productive members of society. Subsidizing their quest to find their way? I don't think that's in the agreement and in fact, I believe and I can see from many of the other posters as well, that enabling your adult child to "find themselves" by taking a class here, a class there, with no set plan to complete anything, is counterproductive to our obligations as parents to raise productive members of society.

Re: Jar8818,

Sorry to hear that. I hope your husband doesn't feel it for too long. If my husband lost his job, we'd lose our house. Good luck to you.

Re: Lise,
I have to wonder if it isn't more the job market than the fact you are older. I'm young and thin, but I have trouble finding retail jobs despite having about ten years experience in retail. Yes, I'm only 27, but I've worked in retail since high school and I paid my way through college with my own two hands. If it has anything to do with your age, it is probably because they don't want to pay you retirement. Retail jobs are like that. I had one retail job work me 39 hours every week, not 40. Thirty-nine hours so I could not get the full time benefits, and part timers were ineligible for any benefits. I really think it is more for monetary reasons with the company than anything else. I hope you have better luck too.

Re: cinymiller,

He literally told you he was "trying to be cool"? How many other women did he decide to "be cool" by having one night stands with, only you never found out about them? Personally, I would dump his cheating butt and find someone who does not deceive me for the sake of something as trivial as "being cool."

I realize there could be a lot more to this relationship dynamic than meets the eye, but for him to give such a flimsy defense as "being cool" and "just a one night stand," I have the sneaking suspicion this guy is just a jerk. You really deserve better than him.

Where was Lori during her daughter's high school years? This is stuff that should have been talked about and prepared for over a year ago and thensome! I'm sorry but I call a big fail on mom's part here. Why was she not supervising her child's transition to adulthood, making sure she had the skills she would need to move out/go to college/whatever?? And now she's upset? Really?

LW1- The "left with some major problems" part made me wonder if he ruined your plumbing or something of the nature, and then you had to pay someone to fix it. Or if it was moreso he did not fix up the bathroom the way you wanted. Either way, he still did a terrible job from either doing shady work or not listening to the customer. This is a valuable experience for everyone to think hard when hiring a relative or close friend to do work for you. It truly changes the dynamic. The worker is less likely to listen to requests and such because you are a relative/friend, and you are less likely to be honest with your feelings & assertive cause this is a loved one working for you. It can end in a real tragedy as you have experienced.

This would be an even bigger tragedy if all the son really wants is an apology. Are you willing to do it to mend fences? If so, either leave a message apologizing or ask a sibling to pass along the word you wish to apologize. Just say you are sorry for hurting his feelings and that was not your intention, then leave it at that. There is no need to go into further detail, and please don't try to defend your actions cause that is not an apology. Continue to send cards and gifts cause this lets him know you still think of him and leaves a window open for reconciliation.

Nanchan: My parents did very little to help me through school. They did not even discuss college with me, so it was really up to me to figure it out myself. I paid my entire way through college and worked nearly full time.. but young adults now really can't make it without some kind of help. I wasn't living with my parents most of the time either, but it is impossible to go to school full time while working and be able to fully support yourself.
Granted, the cost of living where I am is pretty high..
I tried to repay the kindness of others by doing my absolute best with the opportunities I had.
I'm glad things worked out for you, but you already had so many things going for you that others may not have. I didn't have a solid work ethic established at 16 or parents that had high expectations, but I was still able to do something about it. It just took longer.
The whole point of my post was to say relax, it's not the end of the world. But HELP her, don't use what you think she should be doing to antagonize her. She deserves respectful treatment.

Re: wkh

That is not fair. It is possible that Lori was an absentee parent but it is also possible that she has been trying her best. Not all children turn out perfect, even with the best of parents.

I too was not pushed much into college or university coming out of high school but I would hate for someone to say that my parents were failures because I lacked drive.

Re: Gwen...Yeh, turning 60 ain't such a big deal. So many people don't get that far. (My mother didn't; she died on 12.24.56 at the age of 42). I turned 60 three years ago and my doctor recently said that I'm in the best shape I've been in years!!! HALLELUJAH! I'm happy with my "Merry Widow" life, which includes my 3 Big Boys, 2 D~I~L's, 9 grandchildren and 3 *kittehs*...so I'm 'kewl'. Thanx for the Good Wishes.

Re: Lise Brouillette...Thank You. And YES I saw your B~day wishes late last night...or shall we say early this morning, like 1:30 central time (middle Tennessee)!

Re: Zoe

I agree with wkh. Not being a parent yourself, you may not realize that the process begins at birth, communicating this type of thing to your kids doesn't START when they graduate from high school. It actually should be the launching point for them to know that they are responsible for themselves. Why else is the age of consent set at 18 (the year they graduate, usually)?

I'm not coming down on Lori here, just reiterating for other parents that they need to have these conversations with their kids starting early. In my own family, it was assumed we all went to college, we all paid our own ways. My daughter knew from the time she hit school that she is expected to do SOMETHING with her time. If she had decided not to go to college, I would have supported her AS LONG AS SHE COMMUNICATED. And the reason she DOES communicate is because I communicate with HER as well.

It starts as early as they are born, really. Waiting and hoping ("oh, ok, she's going to succeed now that she's passed that magic number 19") is like waiting for a savings account to magically appear in your bank when you haven't put anything in there through the years. You get what you put in. There are times as parents that yes, you get a kid who is out of control even though you are a "good parent", and that's when the tough love situation comes up and you kick them out of your house for their own good and for your own (especially if you have other children). But that doesn't seem the case here. Lori's daughter is not focused, she needs to bring her around to her options and that starts with communication. And yes, wkh, that should have started long before now.

LW1: You did learn one thing from the remodel, and I hope your son figured it out as well: he is not temperamentally suited to doing residential remodels. When my kitchen needed repairs and remodeling, I found that the most important thing was working with a contractor that would actually listen to me. I don't know if there is anyone he would listen to, but if he's not able to face reality, there's nothing you can do.
Lori: There is a major question you need to deal with: does the daughter have any ambition of any kind? If she does, then it's a matter of advice and information of how to get there. If not, if she really doesn't want to do anything useful, then that becomes a time for tough love. What I've been asking my grandkids as they come up against the same age, is "what can you do that is worth somebody paying you for it?" I've had my kids and grandkids work for me, and some of them have learned useful things and some have learned what they don't want to do.
If she is willing to work but doesn't know where to start, try asking around for small businesses that are willing to train and give entry level people choices. I've hired a lot of high school and college kids over the years, some of whom have been impossible to teach, and some who have gone on to do well in my field or others. Right now my crew is one part-time 20-yr-old who's been here since high school, and two 50-ish grandmothers who needed to get back into the workforce.

LW1: You did learn one thing from the remodel, and I hope your son figured it out as well: he is not temperamentally suited to doing residential remodels. When my kitchen needed repairs and remodeling, I found that the most important thing was working with a contractor that would actually listen to me. I don't know if there is anyone he would listen to, but if he's not able to face reality, there's nothing you can do.
Lori: There is a major question you need to deal with: does the daughter have any ambition of any kind? If she does, then it's a matter of advice and information of how to get there. If not, if she really doesn't want to do anything useful, then that becomes a time for tough love. What I've been asking my grandkids as they come up against the same age, is "what can you do that is worth somebody paying you for it?" I've had my kids and grandkids work for me, and some of them have learned useful things and some have learned what they don't want to do.
If she is willing to work but doesn't know where to start, try asking around for small businesses that are willing to train and give entry level people choices. I've hired a lot of high school and college kids over the years, some of whom have been impossible to teach, and some who have gone on to do well in my field or others. Right now my crew is one part-time 20-yr-old who's been here since high school, and two 50-ish grandmothers who needed to get back into the workforce.

TO LORI---POSTER WITH A QUESTION: The child who would not leave home. After 12 years of school, more if preschool and kindergarten in the mix--what signals did you miss when she was growing up? The fact she never had friends over? The fact she never wanted to be with friends? Did she come home crying every day from school from age 6 and on? Were the conferences held quarterly (and at 6 week mid term of necessary) full of praise and wonderment or of anguish? Did your daughter carry depression all through her 12 years of school that you never saw? Did she have certain classes that she was upset about attending? (Mine was phy ed--and my FMS/CFS as a young child NOW explains the pain and fatigue.) Did she not ever join in a club, girl scouts (every little girl's dream to be a brownie and scout) or 4H--did she ask for special toys? Did she play a certain way, read certain books, display things that would lean to say arts, music, physical activity things like dance, gymnastics, etc? What did you encourage with her growing up?
Did you always hand her money if she asked or did you say here is a chore chart, lets figure things out. Usually about age 14-15 kids start fantisizing about WHEN I GET OLDER, WHEN I GET A JOB, WHEN I MAKE THIS MUCH MONEY----I will do, buy, get-----.
A child does not get done with school and become a numbing part of society, living out their lives in their parents home without something going on--CLUES!
There are so many milestones that tell us about our children. Unless you adopted her a year ago, how did you miss these? At some point around say--getting your DRIVER'S LICENSE--kids start talking about getting a job to get some spending cash to use for gas money, money to buy their own set of wheels, their insurance, etc. Did this happen? Did the planning all students are required to go through in HS before graduating get checked off by the counselor? Post HS counseling is part of getting your diploma here. Usually this starts by the time 2nd sememster starts. Same time as the applications are due for the scholarship presentations--all scholarships for students are announced this way, money handed out in this manner, etc. An outside factor also gives all info to be announced at HONORS NIGHT in MAY.
I am just wondering if you missed these obvious signs.
If she did not display any sense at all of what is going on in her future, I would highly suggest some family counseling, individual counseling, find where her head is, is she in a depression? Or does she feel you gave birth to her to take care of her the rest of her life. Entitlement is scary. Esp when you have a child just turned adult where you had opportunity to work the last 18 years with her on the issue.
My 5 yr old granddaughter has decided she will get her certification for emergency water safety at age 15, certified water safety instruction at 16, and continue adding to that. Why? Cause that is what her daddy and 2 uncles did. And at age 5, she is a level 3 Red Cross swimmer. Yep. They told her you had to be 8 to be in that level. So she will continue to practice and practice till she is old enough--Our cold MN outdoors makes it difficult for her to practice 5 months of the year (no indoor pool where they live) but she will do it. Same for her 9 yr old sister, except she just assumes it will all come together for her by age 14.
Don't threaten with grandparents. If you did not start before this, she will just let you play out the bluff. As suggested, all amenities for her comes to a halt. And make a check list on the cupboard door (as we did with our kids ages 8 and up) of chores expected without pay. Then list what can be done for pay. Say scrub the kitchen and bathroom floor daily (a friend of mine's mom did that--not only had the cleanest floor, but work ethic within the family. Other choice was clean the horse stables--which IS a daily issue.)
You are the boss of your household and family. Don't let her take over. If all else fails, get her tested for learning disabilites, mental function abilities--maybe you missed something. My parents missed it with my sister as the brother 1 year younger was special physical and mentally in need.

I am surprised Nanchan agrees with wkh (I do, too), since Nanchan is still coddling her kid with weekly meetings. I would think a 19 year old would not need hand-holding with such a verbose and intelligent mother as Nanchan.
"It actually should be the launching point for them to know that they are responsible for themselves. " as long as mommy signs off on your goals each week

Re: nanchan

To be honest I don't disagree with wkh (it had crossed my mind as well) - I'm just not ready to say that it's a foregone conclusion, I guess. Lori may have tried and did everything "right" and still ended up with a lazy daughter who resists being pushed out the door into the world. She may not be able to get a job because there aren't any to get. I do believe that even "perfect" parents can end up with "imperfect" children (and vice versa). We are getting so little information that it does not seem fair to conclude that "your daughter is a couch potato? fail! you were obviously not around to help your daughter or talk about grownup subjects with her when she was younger."

I would also like to echo L's sentiments that it will probably all be just fine. I was a bleary eyed wanderer when I came out of high school. Spent most of a year working on a horse farm, until I ran out of money. Moved in with my other grandparents, got a temporary job when my grandmother made me get one, met my now-husband, got an apartment, got laid off, got a real job. And so on. My husband did something similar - moved to Montreal for a few years working retail until he moved back with his parents and went to college. Not all kids are motivated out of the gate and it doesn't always mean that parents did not try to help them find their way. Sometimes it just takes a while.

Re: Pam Pam, I think yours is the saddest post I've ever read. How sad that your daughter and her husband would prefer to basically give away their first-born child for the pursuit of the almighty buck. I can't even imagine the trauma your grandson will go through when they decide the eventually want him back, ripping him away from the only home that he knows. They will regret this big time one day, but your grandson will pay the most. They are not doing this for his future--whatever money they make will be spent on counselling and rehab for him, mark my words.

LW1 -- I'm not totally clear as to how much you really want to mend fences with your son. It sounds like you are willing to mend fences if he would at least meet you halfway but that you are not prepared to mend fences "at all costs" -- in other words, doing all the "heavy lifting" on your end, even though he is the one in the wrong. So, the advice is different depending on which end of that you are on.

If you are prepared to do all the lifting because having a relationship with your son and the "one happy family" illusion is paramount to you, then by all means follow the Annies' advice. Just understand that if you do this, it's going to be YOU making the first move, he's not going to apologize to you, and, in fact, you likely will find it necessary to apologize to him. I suspect this is going to stick in your craw a bit, but that's what you'll have to do if this is what you want.

If, however, you are content to simply "leave the door open" should Mark ever come around, then write and/or call him one last time to tell him your door is always open to him, but you won't be bothering him with unwanted gifts and/or cards anymore (I suppose you can continue to send him cards on his birthday, etc., but don't bother with gifts!). Stop inviting him to family functions at your house and tell your daughter if she wants control of the guest list, then SHE can host said family functions (which you will attend and will be perfectly prepared to be civil with Mark). But also tell your daughter you have reached out to Mark multiple times and he is the one who is perpetuating this rift, not you, and the ball is now in his court, as you are done trying to fix something that he broke.

I am not advocating for one option over the other. Neither option, frankly, is all that great, but that's what you're stuck with at this point.

Again, re: Lori,

Attacking the way she raised her kid is a bit pointless, now. Lori can't exactly turn back the clock and do everything all over again.

Re: Duckworth,

When adults are living together in a house, it's not a bad idea to meet and touch base with each other, particularly when one adult has expectations of another adult. An adult child living with parents is usually under certain expectations (go to school or have a job). As long as nanchan's daughter is living in her house, nanchan has every right to know what her daughter is doing to further those goals.

I don't think attacking Lori was my point, my point was more shocked that now she was planning on getting all aggressive with her daughter, such as throwing her out or whatever, when the time to prevent this was before. I don't think she should throw her out. She needs to go back and do what she should have been doing at 12, 15, etc. Making some sort of life plan. I am pretty sure there aren't jobs. I was shocked reading this thread how many people thought she could just waltz out and get hired at Mom and Pop's burgers. I have educated friends who work hard and have experience working manual labour who had difficulty finding work at places like Wal Mart and McDonalds --during Christmas!!!!!!!! Even when omitting their degrees it was still some hard pavement pounding to get basic sales associate jobs. Right now it feels like the only way to get a job is to define yourself in a major niche or something. The job market is awful now. It is not as simple as going out and getting work. Hell even tree planting now is a two interview process where I live!

Re: cindymiller

There is nothing wrong with you, what's probably happening here is that your husband is going through mid life crisis and acting like an idiot because he feels his youth is slipping.

Have you told confronted him with what you know? At one point, you will have to decide how much you're willing to tolerate this kind of behaviour, because there is a high risk of repeat here, especially if he sees you tolerating it.

There is a lot of information that is missing here - how dependent or independent you are, whether you work outside the home or are a homemaker, whether or not you have children, do you own property together, what kind of mate he had been until this happened, what kind of a support system you have, whether or not you are prepared to dump him, whether you are even able to do so. Lacking all that, it is difficult to suggest a course of action besides marriage counselling.

Please write back with more information.

This being stated, you are in the commentary here, which the Annies don't read and don't answer. If you want the Annies instead of us posters, please click on 'Write the Authors" below the archives calendar at the top right of the page.

LW1-
You can't mend this rift. I'm not sure even crawling on your belly would be enough to content someone who is obviously mentally ill, and I wouldn't recommend it even if it was - you didn't do anything wrong. Did you pay him the 400$? If not, send him a check.

Your daughter isn't being fair. Does she still live at home? In that case, she's expected to abide by your decisions, not her whims and fancies. If she has her own household, suggest SHE hold the celebrations next time, and she can invite him to her heart's content then.

Frankly, I find it odd that some apparently adult man would attend a get-together and then refuse to speak to the host, and even more amazing that your daughter would find that behaviour acceptable, especially considering the mess he made of your bathroom. Perhaps she suffers from the same mental problem he does. Does that run in the family?

There is always the chance that getting that check (if he hasn't already) will mellow him out, but don't hold your breath waiting. People can get remarkably pig-headed when it comes to fighting for the right to be wrong, and this one was already stubborn as a mule to start with.

P.S.: What do the other three children think of this? Perhaps they can try to talk sense to the other two. That is, if they have any.

P.P.S.: Lesson hopefully learned here: DON'T mix business with family and friends. Perfect way to lose family and friends.

LW2-
Tell your friends that you're weird that way, but that you would prefer that they concentrate on emphasizing your qualities rather than how much of a heel he is: you KNOW how much of a heel he is, but his contempt of you has made such a dent in your self-esteem that you need shoring up.

LW3-
"Memories of an accident he couldn't prevent."
Oh my God.

I was on the road today, in some of the worst driving conditions there can be - snow at first (visibility 1 or 2), and then freezing rain at night (visibility 1 or 2, adherence 0). Some cars were passing me at far to high speeds on roads that were covered with a layer of brown sleet over black ice. The reason I was (as most vehicles were) crawling at a snail's pace is because I knew couldnt'nt stop abruptly without starting to spin - as happened to me last Friday under the same conditions. The concrete road-bed in the middle stopped my 360 degrees and prevented me from crossing over to the other lane. Thank GOD there were no vehicles directly next to me or close behind. Had there been anything - or anyone - I would have collided. Without being able to prevent it.

Like the jaywalking pedestrianS who ran in front of my van today because they didn't want to bother walking half a block to cross the street at the traffic light. If one of them shaves it too close and throws himself in front of me thinking I can stop on a dime, I may not be able to prevent a tragedy. Not if I'm on slush over ice.

PEDESTRIANS: When it's -20 and windy, I can understand that even an extra 30 feet is a long walk... I know, I've done it myself countless times, and I will do it again. But not in this kind of weather. Not in this kind of weather. Please. Pay attention to the road conditions. The brakes on my van are not a magic wand, I cannot always stop on a dime. PLEASE. I do not want to kill you, nor do I want you to get killed by someone else.

Re: Maria

I don't know where you hail from, the situation may be different where you are. Here, the job market is better than in the States, and there are quite a few retails jobs available - some in the paper, some with a sign in the window. I see them all the time. And as for the problem with me being too old - I've been told point-blank, and more than once.

P.S.: It's not the cheating husband, it's the boyfriend of the piece of ass cindymiller's husband picked up, who told her he was trying to be cool, when he called her husband's phone and she answered it. You misread - happens to all of us at one point.