Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - that's a lot of Jordan's all right. But confusing if they're both in the same room? Because someone can't tell the difference between 2 different people? That makes no sense to me at all. Unless the LW has strong feelings against this or has another strongly preferred name, I'd stay out of it and let the person who cares the most make the decision.

LW2 - I gather you're hoping to put even less effort into the wedding party than you did into the actual wedding. Seriously, you were 'out of town' for your own daughter's wedding? You and she didn't want you there badly enough that you could coordinate your calendars? You 'were allowed to teleconference" in to it over the phone and called it good? My advice to you & your daughter is to leave managing this event, including financing the whole thing, up to someone who cares about the event, i.e. daughter and her hubby. Try to pencil it on your calendar and show up this time.

I had a similar issue with my husband, LW1, but from the opposite angle. He wanted to name our daughter "Catherine" and I did not because it was a very well worn family name in my family. So well worn that a few years ago my grandmother demanded not one more child be named Catherine or any variant thereof. That went over like a lead balloon as my cousin recently had a baby girl, and named her Acadia... nickname... Cadie ;-) Anyway, back when I was pregnant... I protested like mad. What about Olivia? Gabrielle? Solange? Beatrix? Lucy? Elisabeth? Every single time he said "Catherine." Finally I realized it was far more important to him that our daughter be named Catherine than it was to me that she NOT be named Catherine. And so, Catherine was born. We compromised on a very common anglophone spelling of "Catherine" (but very rare here) because he didn't give a damn how we spelled it long as he had his baby Catherine.

"Catherine" is now 13 and the name suits her beautifully. She wears it well and I cannot imagine calling her anything else. Even if there are 15 other people from age 3-83 with her name in the room whenever we throw a party. We had a giant anniversary bash a while back and literally (I am using that adjective appropriately here) half the women there were named some variant of Catherine. She wears it with pride and they bond over how being a Catherine is something awesome and special.

So yes, try to talk her into something else, sure. But Jordan may not be the end of the world. It may suit that baby just fine.

LW1: sounds like your wife has no imagination whatsoever.

A Jordan by any other name...

In my father's family, there was an over abundance of fellows named "John" and gals with feminine variations of the same. The solution was middle names. John Charles, John Robert, John Wayne, etc. The "John" part got everyone's attention; they just waited to respond until the second name was called. Makes sense to me even now.

Re LW1:
With all due respect, Jane sounds pretty selfish and Hubby is inconsiderate on at least one part.....There is (besides the Aunt) a child in the house with the name Jordan. An 8 year old little boy, who has that as his middle name.....How is this kid going to feel having a sibling with the same name ?

He's already going to have some jealousy issues with a new little brother/little sister, now sharing an essential part of his identity with this new sibling will make it worse, how is this kid supposed to feel ?

Does anyone even care that there is a little boy in the house with the middle name Jordan (and did the Annies miss that part of the letter when they suggested using Jordan as a middle name for the new kid ?, 2 siblings with the same middle name ?).

Jane needs to get over whatever weird hangup obsession she has with her sister and also think about her son, and Hubby, needs to get it through Janes head that the little boy who is already there, is going to feel hurt seeing his name given to another sibling.

I'm getting flashbacks to "King of the Hill" where the main character "Hank" wound up with a half brother whom his father named "Good Hank"...........LOL

Uh Mookster do you have kids?

Because the 8 yr olds I knew who had their middle names given to new siblings/cousins thought it was awesome and the kid named for them and their personal awesomeness. *projection* much?

"Hi, I'm Larry, and this is my brother Darrell and my other brother Darrell."

I know a woman who named one son "James Benjamin" and the other "Benjamin James". Neither Ben nor Jim (now adults) seem to have a problem with it.

LW 1 -
It's no big deal to give the name "Jordan" as a middle name to the new baby.

For us "old" folks out there who remember "Petticoat Junction", there were Billi Jo, Bobbi Jo and Betty Jo.

And like some BTL stated, the 8 yr. old will most likely feel very special sharing the same middle name.

LW 2 - Let daughter and hubby do the arranging and call the upcoming event whatever they want. This is your opportunity to be there since you were out of town, first time round. Enjoy yourself, be happy for them and I hope that the son in-law's health is improving.

LW 3 - Has your wife always been like this or just in the last few years or months? Since you have already talked to her about how you feel, then she does know. Suggest going to see a counselor, if she doesn't agree, then go alone, perhaps it will help you to talk to someone else about this.

Here's a suggestion. Back off a little. Since she won't initiate , just put the lovemaking on the backburner. See if she notices that you aren't going to initiate, maybe she'll come around to her senses.

LW1 - Confusing if the child and Aunt Jordan are in the same room?? I'm Italian and - no exaggeration - 95% of the men in my family are either Tony, Joey or Nick. How do we call out one of them at a family reunion? Well, we have "big" and "little" for each name (Big Tony, LIttle Tony, etc) and then we go to occupation after that. I'm not kidding. My cousin Joey is called Joey the Plumber. It's odd but it works, LOL!

I agree that your wife needs to consider your feelings, too. I don't have kids and won't be having them, but if I ever got pregnant and had a girl, I would really want to name her after my deceased best friend. But if my husband strongly objected, I would come to a compromise with him. I think your wife needs to compromise with you, too. The problem is getting her to.

Don't know if this will work but this is what a friend of mine and her husband did when she was pregnant with their first child and they found out it was a boy. They each took a piece of paper and wrote down 10 boy's names that they liked. Then they compared their lists. They had 1 name in common on that list so that's what they named him. Could you possibly suggest that? Good luck!

LW2 - I have to agree with kai on this. My parents would've cancelled everything and anything to see any of their children get married. Unless you and your wife were out of town and your daughter called you and said, "I'm getting married in an hour." But I doubt that's what happened. Anyway, to answer your question, call it whatever your daughter wants to call it.

LW3 - A male friend of mine says nothing is sexier than your GF/wife attacking you in bed. I'm sorry your wife can't see that.

LW1: Yeah, not the biggest problem in the world, unless LW1 had his heart set on a different name. Families come up with nicknames to make sure there's no confusion.

LW2: Unless they are asking LW2 for financial support, this also doesn't seem much of a problem. Let them call it what they will and enjoy spending the day with them.

LW3: This seems to be an issue of communication. Either by themselves or with a counselor, LW3 and his wife should talk through the issue so that he can understand what really is going on, and she can understand how this is affecting him. If she's still attracted to him and there are no medical issues involved, hopefully they can develop some sort of compromise or role play or code word or some small gesture she can make to ease his concerns on this issue.

RE: Mike H. yesterday's post # 25

Were you serious about your cousin picking up an incurable virus in Germany? Or were you just being sarcastic?

Just curious as I've been living over here for 21 years next month, and I was wondering why I can be such a brat at times. LOL.

BTW, I loved to pick your brain about a personal thing, but don't care to get into it BTL. Maybe I should write to the Annies.

@ Michelle Now i'm having flashbacks of My Big Fat Greek Wedding...... Nick, Nicky, ......

it might have worked for the dionne quintuplets and for the george formans, but i would hate it if my sibling had the same name as i. while i wouldn't mind the confusion of having cousins with the same name, to have that confusion at the family breakfast table would be too much.
by the way, i find that i almost never use my first name anymore. in my small church [about 50 members] there are at least five of us. several of us have developed alternate names. i use my initials.

And some children are highly sensitive to being named for a relative of the opposite sex.
***
Huh??? That ship has sailed, Annies! LW's stepSON is named for Auntie Jordan. If the new babe is also dubbed Jordan, that new babe will --regardless of gender -- already see a relative of the same sex bearing his/her name. Two little male Jordans would certainly lead either child to think "Auntie Jordan has a boy's name" rather than "I have a girl's name" and apparently the stepson has had no issues with his name yet.

LW can suggest the new babe might be happier to have a unique-in-the-family first name, and work to find one that works with Jordan as a middle name (River Jordan?). Otherwise, consider finding a good middle name to call the kid by, or one that offers good initial possibilities -- Jordan Cecily = JC or Jordan Thomas = JT.

And remind yourself that if the kid hates the name enough, the kid will come up with a variation anyway OR change it legally upon turning 18.

And some children are highly sensitive to being named for a relative of the opposite sex.
***
Huh??? That ship has sailed, Annies! LW's stepSON is named for Auntie Jordan. If the new babe is also dubbed Jordan, that new babe will --regardless of gender -- already see a relative of the same sex bearing his/her name. Two little male Jordans would certainly lead either child to think "Auntie Jordan has a boy's name" rather than "I have a girl's name" and apparently the stepson has had no issues with his name yet.

LW can suggest the new babe might be happier to have a unique-in-the-family first name, and work to find one that works with Jordan as a middle name (River Jordan?). Otherwise, consider finding a good middle name to call the kid by, or one that offers good initial possibilities -- Jordan Cecily = JC or Jordan Thomas = JT.

And remind yourself that if the kid hates the name enough, the kid will come up with a variation anyway OR change it legally upon turning 18.

LW1: Like many other posters, there are many people in my family with the same name. My given name is an Americanization if my great grandmother's, two of my brothers have the same name reversed, all the boys have one middle name in common, my sisters and I all have the same middle name, my mother and her mother have the same name.... etc. etc. There is no problem knowing who is who when called: nicknames are all over the place and are signs of affection. So for example if the LW's wife names the new baby Jordan, in my family the aunt may be called Big Jordan or the baby may be called Jordy or whatever comes naturally. In my family, almost noone uses one of my sisters given name at all: it's really long so we just call her by her nickname. My grandmother has the same name and has a different nickname, same given name. It really just changes organically. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I was the LW.

LW2: I don't think the Annies caught the sentence " My daughter's mother died four years ago, so it's just my new wife and I who would be handling it." To me, the implication is clear that the daughter and her fiance want a "real" wedding and they want Dad to pay for it. What to call it? Well, if they are doing the church deal with a minister, you call it a renewal of vows because they have already said their vows and to say them again would be a renewal. If they only want a party, I'd just call it the formal reception or maybe a celebration of our commitment.

LW3: Wow, your situation doesn't sound very good. i think your situation is different than the original LW's though, because the wife in that case enjoyed sex but just wouldn't initiate it. You on the other hand are being soundly rejected. Your wife also doesn't seem to like it much because she's referring to sex with you as a chore.

What to do? Well, I agree counseling is in order, but first your wife has to know how deeply this hurts you. I think there are some women (maybe some men, but more often this is women) who feel that it is possible to live quite happily thank you very much without sex. But for most men, sex is a basic need. Since you can't get through to your wife how much this hurts you, you should probably have a third party (counselor) help you to learn to communicate with each other.

Final thoughts on this: I would also suggest that you consider a sex therapist. No, these are not hookers with whips and chains, these are licensed professionals who address the physical and emotional aspects of a couple's sexual relationship and try to resolve them. Maybe your wife has been taught that sex is bad, maybe she doesn't think it's a big deal, maybe she just doesn't like sex with YOU (maybe you are doing something wrong). I don't know but a sex therapist can help you guys work that out. Best of luck.

Re: wkh Ha! You could decorate parties with a Catherine Wheel!

Lots of good comments here on name issues.... but am I the only one who finds it disconcerting that LW 1's wife just announces her husband's opinion is overruled? It's his child, too, after all! A lot of good compromises are suggested, but it sounded to me as if the wife believes this is 100 percent her decision. I think for most people, naming one's child is one of the most personal and sweetest parts of expecting.... it seems unfair to me that the wife just shuts him out and says it's her decision. She is shutting him out of one of first and biggest decisions of his child's life. I call selfish on the wife!

LW1 Genealogy is a hobby of mine and some cultures have unusual naming patterns for offspring - a lot of my Swiss and German ancestors named all of their daughters Maria as the first name and their sons Johann as the first name: i.e. Maria Elisabeth, Maria Margaretha or Johann Georg or Johann Peter. The children were known by their middle names. In many Slavic cultures the middle name is the father's name with a male (ovich)or feminine suffix (evna) added, and in some Scandinavian countries the child's surname is the father's first name with sson or dottir added as a suffix, so that no one even has the same last name! Three people named Jordan in the family doesn't sound so strange to me.

Re: Michelle
Michelle, your post made me laugh! I'm Italian too and we've got the exact same thing going my family, except they're mostly Johns and Angelas, because the Italian 'thing' to do traditionally is everyone needs to name their first son and first daughter after the paternal grandparents. So my grandfather and all his siblings (they were quite a lot of them) all had children named John and Angela (so at least it's cousins, not siblings). The Angelas all got married and took their husbands' names so now they're all called by their full names all the time at family gatherings, and the Johns get some variant of "Big John", "Little John", etc. We have a few Tonys and Dominics too.

And like another poster said, I thought of my own family watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding too, when they introduce "My brother Nick... and my cousin Nic... and my sister Nicki... and my cousin Nicky".

That said though, I think it's one thing for cousins or other extended relatives to share family names as all the siblings may want to honour the relative the kids are named, but personally I wouldnt' want to reuse the same name naming my children. Maybe as a common middle name, e.g. I know a guy and his brother who both have their mother's maiden name as one of their middle names. There's even a tradition in my own family to use Thomas as a middle name for sons because it was the maiden name of the my dad's great-grandmother - but it's one son per family not every single boy, like my dad's middle name is Thomas but his brother's wasn't. My brother's middle name is Thomas but I expect if my mother had had another boy, he wouldn't have gotten the Thomas name as well.
Jane has already honoured her sister by giving her first son the sister's name as his middle name (why didn't she insist on using it as a first name that time?) For me personally that would be enough, or perhaps give the second child the same middle name so they "match". Are there no other beloved relatives that they could name the new baby for? Like other posters have said, it sure wouldn't be a big problem or all that confusing, I just don't see WHY you'd want to give the same name to more than one of your children. Since I presume Jordan is a fake name and we don't know what the name really is (though apparently the real name is a sufficiently gender-neutral name) it's hard to suggest alternatives that would work, but most names have many variants that could be used. Even the same name in another language. Like my mom *kind of* kept up her family tradition of naming by naming my brother Evan, the Welsh form of John.

@Gwen, absolutely kidding, and I was in Germany myself in 1992 and loved it! Maybe come over to Delphi and talk about it there? There's a way to send private messages that also keep anonymity. I'm not really comfortable giving out an email address here, unless I made up a new one.

@SunshineStater, I agree, in the ideal world it *should* be a mutual decision. I also know, though, that twins can have a weird connection/obsession with each other that may be at play here, and the husband might not want to make too big a stink. It IS unfortunate that the wife is not being more sympathetic to his view on this, though.

Re: SunshineStater

Yes, I am bothered by that, too. The name, as many have said, is not a big deal - as long as it's not something ridiculous like "Apple", the kid will be just fine with his/her name, or by using a nickname.

If I were LW1, I would say that she already got the chance to name a kid Jordan, and she did! LW1 should be a part of a the process to choose the name. However, if he doesn't have a name in mind and just doesn't want "Jordan", he should relent. The kid will be fine. If he does have a name he wants, he and his wife need to have a talk. If she is as loving and wonderful as he says, she will be open to the discussion. I like the idea of writing a list of 10 names and choose one they have in common, and leave Jordan has a nickname.

LW3 - You say your wife enjoys sex even though she does not initiate it, but from how you describe it it doesn't sound like she enjoys it. If she DOES enjoy it, and she "concedes" to have it often enough, then maybe let the non-initiating thing slide. It would be nice if she did, and perhaps counseling could help, but if everything else is fine, and you know she loves you, don't get too hung up on one thing. She may feel that it's wrong for her to want sex and can only let herself have sex if you push for it.

I also assume you've tried to romance her before getting in bed and saying "wanna do it?" But if you haven't, clean the house, get her flowers and take her out to dinner, watch a sexy movie, and see where it goes. Next time she "lets" you, spend all your time on her - kiss, cuddle, massage, go down on her, get her a sweet vibrator (not the phallic kind - Hitachi makes a good one). If it works, she should be quite ready to initiate after all that!

Oops. I meant to leave "Jordan" as a middle name, not a nickname.

Re: Aaltje

I'm Russian and just wanted to clear something up. The "ovich" or "evna" ending in Slavic countries is not a middle name, it's a patronym -- which is the person's father's name that is conjugated. My brother is Nikolai Alekseyevich (Nicholas, son of Aleskey) and I am Elena Alekseyevna (Elena, daughter of Aleksey). It's also the formal way to address someone else (Mr. or Mrs. etc. is rarely used).

Also, in Slavic countries (those that are Eastern Orthodox anyway), middle names are not used at all, in fact prohibited. Your first name has to be the name of a saint that matches the same gender as the child. (Exceptions are angels; anyone can be named after them).

Personally, I never got the reasoning behind a middle name anyway... What's the point?

LW1: Your wife has no right to "be determined" to name the child what she wants, especially if you disagree, and have a good reason, as you do. Naming a child should be a joint decision, compromising if necessary on BOTH parts. How do you put up with someone who insists, over your objections, and willingness to compromise ?

LW3: Why do you stay married to this insensitive, rude, cold fish? There are plenty of women who would appreciate you.

Do you realize how many Bubas there are out there OR Juniors?
First of all, an identical twin? Don't mess around with that. That issue is deeper than you want to go. We are a family of twins as well. They do their thing for a reason that can't be explained. Other than TWINS. Researchers understand.

Many families have a family name in many places of their relatives. Mine happens to be LEE or variation of it.
That being said, we have a abundent of Lees, Toms, Johns, etc. Adult Jane and youngster Janie. My youngest is Marc Thomas, but known as THOMAS when in company of other family members OLDER than him. Respect for who hd the name first. Firstborn has first and 2nd names the same as another, so he goes by CJ. He goes by Chris in his own adult world away from family. And there are many others going by their initials.
With so many ways to spell names, unless you get my situation of--son # 2's name. Same 1st/2nd/3rd name as 4th cousin. Not too bad except they were in the same school system. 5 years different in ages but still the mix up continued in school info, grades, even paychecks sent. Oh, I was doing daycare at the time and when being registered at the state, we had to use the cuz child's first name 2nd. State computers kept kicking it out as a double entry. 2 kids by the same identical names at the same daycare. Eventually we would call mine AC during daycare hours.

I have been reading some biographies of old history. Many are named the same as siblings, esp if the sibling died as a baby. So there are birth and death certificates issued sometimes a year apart. Makes you wonder when you see family cemetery plots And a couple same names.

Concern for the husband's feelings. He does not say he has siblings. Or much extended family. If he had, this would be a no brainer. He would just know the answer.

Lastly, it is a show of honor to be named for a family member. I took my children's first names from the Bible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2nd wedding. You find 2 weddings alot, most often cause of a deployment came up when the wedding was in the long distance planning. So a quick civil ceeremony followed by the 2nd when back. Many guests usually don't kno about the first unless announced as affirmation of wedding vows. It is up to personel finances wht you do to what extent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Aaltje

I'm Russian and just wanted to clear something up. The "ovich" or "evna" ending in Slavic countries is not a middle name, it's a patronym -- which is the person's father's name that is conjugated. My brother is Nikolai Alekseyevich (Nicholas, son of Aleskey) and I am Elena Alekseyevna (Elena, daughter of Aleksey). It's also the formal way to address someone else (Mr. or Mrs. etc. is rarely used).

Also, in Slavic countries (those that are Eastern Orthodox anyway), middle names are not used at all, in fact prohibited. Your first name has to be the name of a saint that matches the same gender as the child. (Exceptions are angels; anyone can be named after them).

Personally, I never got the reasoning behind a middle name anyway... What's the point?

Re: Zoe
Zoe, sorry, I don't agree. The idea that a man needs to clean the house, romance his wife, buy her flowers, get her a vibrator, buy her presents, etc., etc., etc., just to get her to look anything other than irritated about the prospect of having sex, is an unreasonable expectation.
What if a woman wrote in and said, "my husband acts like having sex is a chore, and if I request it, he says 'Oh, all right, I guess so, geeze, you're such a nag --- maybe later if I feel like it' -- which is roughly equivalent to what this man's wife has been saying? Would you tell her to stop complaining, clean the house, buy sexy lingerie, buy him playboy magazines, rent some porn for him to watch, bring him a six pack, buy him some sex toys, etc., etc., etc., all in the hopes that he'll be magically transformed into a prince charming?
I wouldn't. I'd tell her to tell the jerk that since he finds sex so intolerable, she's decided to look for a better spouse ... and my advice to this guy is to do the same thing. His "wife" has made it clear she has zero interest in sex, zero interest in him, enjoys being snotty and passive aggressive, has no respect at all for his feelings, and no interest in correcting that situation. The mystery to me is why people stay married to a spouse like that, of either gender.

Re: sarah morrow

I didn't mean that he should be doing that on a daily basis, or every time he wants to have sex. I suggested it more as "get to the bottom of it" thing, and I piled on every suggestion I could - not necessarily does he have to do them all, or all at once.

The thing is, LW3 doesn't mention much about himself or their relationship other than that she does not initiate sex. We don't know if she mothers 6 toddlers and works part-time while he gets fat and drinks beer on the couch all day and then expects her to turn on the moment they go to; or if he has tried to take over some of her chores and take her on a date, or otherwise romance her. Many women do need romance or do not get aroused as easily as men. That doesn't mean he has to "buy" intimacy from her, but it may mean that he has to go a step beyond pawing at her when they go to bed. And he may be already have gone above and beyond. But if he hasn't, he should try, and if it works he may have his answer (his wife's into it, she just needs a lot of prep, but maybe it opens the door to more discussion). And if it does not, he has another answer (she's not into it, probably never will be, and he has to decide if he's willing to give up sex to be with her).

And yes, I'd give the same advice if the genders were reversed. Whether it's a wife or a husband suffering from a lack of intimacy, if I don't know what, if anything, they've done to try to rekindle it, I would suggest starting at the beginning (and for a woman, yes, that might be putting on some sexy lingerie, cooking up a steak, and putting on some adult entertainment).

Re: DarkVorona

re: middle names. My daughter's father is Japanese and in Japan (where she was born) they don't have middle names. Her middle name shows up only on her American birth certificate and now driver's license, but it is extremely important to her and to everyone in our family because it is the name of my favorite grandmother who had passed away shortly before my daughter was born.

My sisters and I share the same middle name which happens to be a saint's name. While my family is not Catholic, we have a respect for Biblical names and so all of us have at least one name from the Bible in our full names. My youngest brother has the name of another deceased family member as his middle name as a sign of respect.

Also, many people use the middle name as an initial only. One of my nieces was named her name with the initials CEO (her mother wanted her to grow up to be one). Another family member has the initials DDD (still not sure why, but ok).

The point is that middle names aren't just throw aways. In many people's cases, they USE the middle name because the first given name is either outdated or difficult. A friend of mine uses only her middle name because her first name is Edith, she didn't like it when we were kids because kids would call her Edith Bunker, so she switched to her middle name which is Grace (then we all called her Princess, she forgave us for that though!). I have NO idea what J. Edgar Hoover's first name is... he used his middle name. I think the purpose is as varied as people themselves.

To Gwen:

We at Delphi - Advice Columns Fanatics - would love to have you visit and talk with us there. JoannaKathryn, Lise Brouillette, Michael, Mike H., hedgehog, alien07110, ppclps and lots of others turn up there every day. You can join for free, and if you want to send private messages, or get a group opinion, we would be pleased to help. We could use more European input!

Just google Advice Columns Fanatics Delphi and we are usually at the top of the list.

The invitation to Delphi applies to anyone - of course! We welcome anyone who wants to talk about our favourite obsession - advice columns and life in general.

Re: Zoe

Look up Marabel Morgan on Wikipedia.

I see your point that we don't know enough about the situation to know if the LW is absent for his wife in many ways and then just expects sex on demand. And goodness knows, treating someone special never hurts. But when it gets to the point that they have talked about it so much that the LW refuses to talk about it anymore, well, it's beyond a few flowers and candy, it's serious enough to call in the professionals.

Also, your post reminded me of a story I saw on the news yesterday. There is a judge somewhere (I think it was the South of the US) who was sentencing a man convicted of spousal abuse. The judge's sentence? To leave the jail, buy his wife some flowers and take her out to dinner at Red Lobster. What? That's what I call putting a bandaid on a gushing wound. It is also EXTREMELY degrading to women to think you can buy their sexual favors (or forgiveness in the case of the judge).

This is a MUCH bigger problem and needs to be treated as such. And Sarah has a great point too: if the wife doesn't respect her husband enough to at least TRY to work things out, then she is setting herself up to be replaced.

LW1-
Yeah, that makes for an abundance of Jordans... But are you willing to create a rift in your marriage over that, sir?

The 8 year-old's "Jordan" is only his middle name, so it's not the name he's being addressed with. This leaves only the sister being currently called Jordan on an everyday basis. Frankly, I don't see this as any worse than a son being named after his father, and called Junior until the father dies. Do the same, or find a nickname, or another way to differenciate the two.

And, while I agree that her insistence seems to negate your sentiment and pre-empt your contribution in a matter that ought to be decided jointly, if your wife is otherwise considerate of your feelings, then this is something she happens to feel strongly about. Perhaps she just loves the name - or wants to make sure she still hears it every day, should her sister ever pass before her. Perhaps you can ask her?

P.S.: Are you so happy that you need to be groping at straws trying to find drama? This is very trivial, and you shouldn't need to write in to an advice columnist to figure out a simple solution.

@Michelle
"My cousin Joey is called Joey the Plumber."
Did you know that's one of the ways many sirnames were eventually developed? John (the) baker, John (from) Sussex, John (the) Frenchman, etc.

@Gwen
"BTW, I loved to pick your brain about a personal thing, but don't care to get into it BTL. Maybe I should write to the Annies."
Or maybe you should come over to Delphi!

@DarkVorona
I don't know about other points to having a middle name, but one that I know about is that if the person hates his/her given name, there is a choice to be used as an alternate without having to go through the legalities of name-changing which, in some places, can be both expensive and complicated, when at all possible. My sister-cousin did exactly that and is using only her middle name now.

The family hated it, but since she stopped answering to the other name, they had to adapt!I personally preferred her other name but hey - her life, her identity, her name.

@LW1: That's really strange…. I understand if Jordan has passed away and Jane wanted to memorialize her sister. But the fact that she's still living, Jane already gave her son Jordan as a middle name, and will do it regardless of gender or her husband's feelings, is just kind of weird. It goes back to a point Mike H. made a couple days ago regarding compromise in a marriage. You can't just make demands and expect your spouse to abide by it. That's unfair.

@LW3: UGH. Ask Amy ran a letter today, responding to an earlier letter about a man who complained that his wife wouldn't have sex with him. The oversaturation of letters about this same topic is making me never, ever want to get married :(

Re: nanchan

Agreed, they need more help than be offered an advice column. But even so, we don't know how it came to be that LW refuses to talk about it. He could be utterly ignorant, or she could be a passive-aggressive biatch. At any rate, it certainly will not hurt LW to spend a day romancing his wife. I honestly do not think it will help but I am a big advocate of trying everything you can so you can quit without (much) guilt.

If playing the perfect husband doesn't help, and counseling doesn't help, he can call it quits and truthfully say to himself "I tried everything to improve our relationship; she just did not want to even try."

Yes, I saw that article as well! Made me crave lobster. From what I read, the judge seemed pretty "with it" - I think he chose that odd sentence because he didn't consider it particularly serious and didn't think that the wife was in any danger. I'm not sure what I think of it, to be honest. It does seem to really downplay the significance of laying your hands on someone in anger, but on the other hand sometimes "real" punishment only makes things worse.

Re: buying sexual favours. I read an interesting article this week about women and why we are perceived as difficult/choosey/picky and what the article said made sense. It was referring mostly to casual sex but I think it makes sense across the board. The idea is that men are all but guaranteed an orgasm, regardless of how awful the girl is. Women, on the other hand, have to be more choosey with their sexual encounters (casual or otherwise) because if they aren't with the right guy or in the right frame of mind, it can be high on impossible for some to achieve orgasm.

Anyway, that doesn't really relate to LW3, I don't think, but I found it interesting. Yes, sometimes men have to work a little harder, and yes, that's okay, and no, it's not necessarily "buying" sexual favours (but sometimes it is).

Something else I read a while ago was a woman who was using a dating site to basically get free food. She would go out on dates up to 6x/week and get a nice, free dinner out of it. I thought that that was despicable.

RE: LW1 and the name game
Unless it is a cultural or family thing, and not just an "obsessed twin" thing, this strikes me as odd. Yes, there are lots of families (of a variety of ethnic backgrounds) that have a tradition of using the same name over and over again, and if that's what's at work here, then that's one thing. But I don't think that's what it is. This is about the twins, not an extended family or cultural issue. And while I understand (as well as a non-twin can) that there's a very special bond between twins, particularly identical twins, it sounds like these two are having some separation issues. She's there four or five times a week? Seriously? Those twins should just be very, very grateful that the LW doesn't mind it, because even though he says she doesn't impose on the marriage and gives them their space, being there four or five times a week doesn't exactly sound "spacious" to me -- but again, he's fine with it, so good for all of them. Perhaps wifey-poo might want to count her blessings and pick a different name.

Kai Archie and others have suggested that LW just let the wife name the baby because the wife cares more about the name. Well, actually, I'm not sure that's true. The husband clearly has a problem with the name, which indicates that he DOES care about it, possibly just as much as the wife.

And yes, numerous posters talk about how it worked out just fine for them, etc. And on the other hand, there are times when it does NOT work out fine. I have two cousins (who are brothers) who both named their respective daughters Janet and Karen. The two brothers weren't close to begin with and already had some issues between them, but the naming of the daughters was the last straw -- they stopped speaking to each other. One of them basically stopped coming to family functions over it. As a result, the two Janets and the two Karens didn't meet until they were in college. THEY, of course, could not have cared less and were thrilled to finally meet, but even for those of us who were more on the periphery as cousins were hurt by this, as we lost out on getting to know both Janets and both Karens. I realize there were other issues between these brothers, so it's not like the names were what really did the damage -- I'm just saying, it doesn't always go well.

And yes, it's very possible that the half-siblings will "bond" over the shared name. Unfortunately, it is equally possible that it will be a bone of contention between them. In *some* cases, the fact that one is the step child and one is the "real" child can lead to sibling rivalry on steroids. If you add into that kind of mixture the whole same name thing, it can go sour -- fast. When I was pregnant, one of the names both my husband and I liked was Adam. The problem was, there is someone with that name. My husband's brother (aka evil BIL that I have talked about before) had three kids with a woman he doesn't actually like. That woman has a son named Adam from a previous relationship. Now BIL and that woman are in a custody battle royale over the three that are his -- but not over Adam (since he doesn't have a legal claim to him). There are already all kinds of sibling rivalry issues going on, and Adam is under the impression that the rest of this family has no interest in him because he isn't a "Smith" -- he doesn't understand that it isn't that we have no interest in him, we don't see him because his mother is keeping us away from him out of spite. Had we named our son Adam, it would only have added to the problem, so we nixed the name. Again, I realize there are other issues going on here that do not appear to be an issue for the LW, but the whole half-sibling thing can become a problem that can also be exacerbated by playing the name game.

Last but not least, I don't understand people who get so attached to one name (before they even HAVE a baby) that they absolutely must name the baby that name, no matter what. And I don't understand people who, apparently, couldn't give a $h!t for what their spouse wants or feels.

@DarkVorona

In our family, the purpose of a middle name is so your child knows when you're really SERIOUS about what you're yelling at him for -- for example, my son didn't pay much attention when I yelled "JAMES!", but when I yelled "JAMES ROBERT!" then he KNEW I meant business :)

Re: sarah morrow
"The mystery to me is why people stay married to a spouse like that, of either gender. "
Because everything else is good and a source of happiness.

If that was the case ("IF"), I would gladly buy lingerie, his favourite perfume, rent a porn flick (with bounds of reasons - no S&M), cook his favourite meal, etc, if it WORKS!

I had a boyfriend like that. Everything was perfect, except that he was of the opinion that sex was way more trouble than it was worth. Pehaps he didn't feel much in terms of climax, he sure didn't have much of a libido - close to asexual. The only reason I'm not with him anymore is because he left for Alberta and, after years of absence, I met someone else.

@Gwen
About Delphi - ya, welcomen!

Re: wkh
my mother of 83 years is a catherine
may your daughter grow to be as kind and generous a woman as my catherine has been to me.
its a fine name

LW1 ~~ Bitey Fish doesn't see what the problem is. Everyone in Bitey Fish's family is named Bitey Fish, and all of Bitey Fish's ancestors were named Bitey Fish.

@Lisa
"The two brothers weren't close to begin with and already had some issues between them, but the naming of the daughters was the last straw -- they stopped speaking to each other."
No, in this case, it didn't go well, but that's because the brothers used name calling as a form of name-calling!

I don't understand the attachment to one name to this extent either, but it does happen. In this instance, as I said, if the wife is otherwise considerate of her husband's feelings and opinions and this stubborness is not the indication of a deeper problem, I would humour her.

And even if it WAS a symptom of a deeper problem in the relationship... In their particular case, it's not a big thing, and I would save my energy for more important battles. After all, it's not like he absolutely detests the name, he's just concerned at the overuse of it.

In looking at my own family history, I too discovered that back when infant mortality was high, if a baby died, they just gave the next one the same name. I would much rather share a name with l living sibling, than feel I was supposed to be replacing one who had passed on.

I like the idea of varied spellings - I have an uncle Karl and a cousin Carl - no Junior.

President Harry S Truman had no middle name. Both grandfathers started with an S (but were different), so that is all they used.

I wish we knew the "real" name in question, so we could give better specific suggestions.

Re: Zoe

Your last statement was HILARIOUS! I had friends like that in college: they would go to the department stores and do their makeup from the stuff on the counter (so they didn't have to buy their own) and then go out on dates. Some were pretty successful at working that entire part of the dating game, but every one of them were what I would term a gold digger (see yesterday's thread). None of them have jobs now, they live off their alimony settlements and or their current husbands.

WRT LW3: I agree that women may take a bit more "romancing" but at this stage in the relationship (married and for several years), it shouldn't take An Act Of God it to happen. The LW himself admits it's not even about the SEX "It's the feeling of connectedness and the belief that she wants to be emotionally joined to me. " This wife is, as Sarah says, a cold fish. She's quick on her way to losing her man.

Your Don, my Don and Don second name works, too. Then there is Jim, James and Jimmy, and Larry and Larry second name. Many of my uncles go by their middle names because their first and last names are so common.

Does it occur to anyone that the wife who "enjoys sex" but doesn't initiate it is just a good actress who is tired of having to fake it with a man who only cares that he "needs" sex?

@nanchan, #44, agreed -- and what I think a lot of these suggestions are missing is that what LW3 is complaining about is that his wife won't *initiate* sex.

So if he has to buy her a romantic dinner or flowers or court her or do the dishes or rub her feet in order to get her "in the mood", he's STILL the one initiating the sex, and so that doesn't solve the problem at all. In fact, it may reinforce it, that he has to be the one to do something, anything, to get her "in the mood".

What I suspect he'd like to see is some night when he's just watching tv with her that she turns to *him* and starts seducing *him* out of the blue, which will then lead to the bedroom.

Annies Fan: LOL!!!!! Good one.

Bitey: Hmmmm, you gotta point there.

-------------

As for LW3, here is something that sums it up and I think someone else said it not long ago:

Men are like microwaves
Women are like crock pots

I believe most women understand the microwave thing, it's usually the men who don't understand the crock pot part.

Although in this case, there surely is a lot more to it, hard to tell from the letter. Or what's left of it.

Re: Mike H

Good point. However, I think if she replied "oh yes, that would be wonderful!" with enthusiasm I don't think he would really be complaining.

Just to clarify, my suggestion was not that he earn sex every time he wants it - rather, to get his wife to a point where if she still isn't into it, she never will be, and LW can say he tried. If she IS into it, they aren't out of the woods at all, but LW will at least know that his wife *can* get into with him, and then they can work from there. If they want to.

@Lise B -- I agree with you (and others) that, assuming the wife in LW1 is otherwise sensitive to his needs and that unilateral decision-making is not the norm, then the LW probably should just let this go. I just saw a lot of people BTL saying how this isn't a big deal, happens all the time and everyone's fine with it, and I thought it was worth pointing out that while it probably isn't USUALLY a big deal and USUALLY everyone's fine with it -- it doesn't ALWAYS go that way, and therefore we shouldn't dismiss the husband's concerns out of hand. I think it's good for him (if he's reading the BTL) to see all the comments about this not being a big deal and reassuring him that it can work out just fine because, if all of the family dynamics in place are positive (something he knows but that we do not), then he can be comfortable letting his wife have her way. But, if he also sees that there are times when it doesn't work due to other unrelated family dynamics in play, he is then in a better position to assess if his concerns MIGHT be valid.

But I can't help suspecting that husband's needs may frequently come second to his wife's -- and her twin's. Because, again, barring some family tradition or cultural tradition on her side (which isn't mentioned, so I am assuming neither exists in this case), this is about a potentially unhealthy "twin obsession" thing. And I call it potentially unhealthy because the wife appears to be completely unmoved by her husband's UNDERSTANDABLE desire to have some sort of say in the naming of his child.

@Lise B -- forgot to add that I liked the pun on name calling!

J Edgar Hoover was JOHN. Many used the initital when first name is John. Also subs Jack for John too.


I just finished reading ALL THE PRESIDENTS' LADIES. Full of actual history and a tell all. Yes, most the presidents we have had listened to the whisper in their ear MOST OF THE TIME. And some of the presidents were sickly or invalid due to illness or strokes. And the ladies ran the country.

Martha Washington ran many miles of land--not just acres. The whole plantations, the staff, including an onsite 'factory' where they made all the clothing for all those who lived and worked for them. And she was part of the daily workforce.

Like yesterday, today's infomercial between the noon news and the next program on CBS was getting your dentures. And they kept going on how it would improve your sex life. They showed older ladies with husbands of new teeth just rolled their eyes and giggled like a 17 yr old.
One ladies comment was THE PAIN WITH ALL I DO is gone, with new dentures--and gives sexy eyes to this old looking goat sitting in the audience.
There are nicer ways to sell the products. They hype it up with sugar and spice and then people should not worry about the price.

Re: Alexandra

I forgot about the women's names, LOL! I, too, have a lot of Angelas. We also have a lot of Marias and Teresas. But we don't say big or little or even the occupation with the women. We mostly say either whose daughter they are, whose mother they are or where they live. Such as Big Tony's daughter Angela or Angela in New York.

My parents' generation named some of their kids the traditional way you described and some did not. My generation of cousins are not naming their kids any of the family names. The only exception is my nephew, Nick. He was named after my SIL's grandfather, though.

LW1--By your own admission, your SIL 'Jordon' is a wonderful person and your wife's best friend (as well as her identical twin.) You also freely admit that your step-son, whose middle name is also Jordan is a great kid whom you love so dearly you consider him one of your own. It seems to me that the name Jordon is a positive influence in your family. What harm could it possibly do to allow your wife to honor her sister and step-son by naming your new baby Jordan? Names and just that and whatever you call your new child he or she will have these two wonderful family members as great role models and good influences. What better way to seal their bond then to honor the baby with the same name? And trust me, in spite of what the Annies say, it won't be that confusing if all three Jordans are in the same room. I wouldn't make too big of an issue out of what is essentially a non-issue. Congratulations on your new arrival!

LW2--All weddings are, really, are parties to celebrate the coming together of two people. I'm not sure why you're stressing over what your daughter's November event should be called but I suspect you're uber conservative and are only comfortable when things are done in accordance to your own values and staunch moral code. Unfortunately for you, your daughter's marriage or her wedding plans aren't about you. The happy couple did what they needed to do to ensure that your daughter's fiancée had proper medical coverage. So what if they want to go ahead with their original wedding which will include the fancy dress, beloved family and cherished friends? My advice to you is to offer up your support to the happy couple and cooperate fully with whatever they have planned for their big day in November.

LW3--"I would feel happier if I knew she was sexually attracted to me." "It's the feeling of connectedness and the belief that she wants to be emotionally joined to me." This sounds like YOUR problem to me. You want your wife to drool all over herself in anticipation of sex with you, but then you turn around and say that all that's important is that she feels connected emotionally to you. Which is it? If it's the former, then you need to grow up and face reality. If it's the latter, then it should be enough for your wife to hug you at the end of a hard day and tell you she loves you. Stop pressuring your wife to play a role that isn't comfortable for her or natural for her or drop everything to "perform" on cue and instead appreciate all she's contributed in creating a life you presumably both enjoy. Keep in mind that sex is really just a biological activity intended to produce children. It's only humans who construe it as a symbolic act of love. That symbolism means different things to different people. There are many acts of love. Try to identify and appreciate those too.

Well Chris, I do like your thoughts on L3. To be fair, women could learn that a man shows love in many ways, too, like changing the oil in her car and things like that. I sure do wonder what this wife would have to say tho.

If any of you start an advice column, how about it be a condition that you can contact the other person and get their take on things? Wouldn't that be interesting? And maybe start numerous conflagrations? Hmmmmm.....

Re: jar8818

In one of the women's magazines (I forget which one) there was (is?) a column called "Can this marriage be saved?" which does exactly that.

Also, we have spoken about hearing the other side of the story here many times in the past. We have also (samantha's letter from Sunday comes to mind here) been made aware of the fact that editing on behalf of the advice columnists means we often don't hear the full story from the LW itself.

It's not anybody's fault if they answer the letter AS IT IS PRINTED, it's all the information we have.

nanchan:

I've read that magazine feature many times; too bad it can't be done here. Seems like advice could be slanted quite often just due to not having enough facts or the other side of the story. L3 is a good example of that today.

Re: jar8818

Agree. But then we couldn't have all the fun here trying to read between the lines! (j/k)

I think there's a missing element in the discussion about how to romance your wife, and that is that romancing should take place *WITHOUT* expectation that it leads to the bedroom. Actually, after typing out a paragraph, I think "romancing" is the wrong word. Too many men take both sex AND "romancing" as a quid-pro-quo cause/effect transaction that MUST occur as a natural result of whatever you did. You eat food, you have to go to the bathroom. You go to the grocery store and hand somebody money, you get food. You buy your wife flowers, you get sex...oops, that last one doesn't qualify.

The fact is, there IS no quid pro quo action you can perform to make somebody desire you. And too many men don't understand that. They think that there must be a magic combination of performing 1 household chore, giving 2 hugs and 1.5 compliments at least 25 minutes before the target time of having sex, and are frustrated when the Wife Program doesn't comply. So they try 2 household chores, 1 hug and 1 kiss, and 2 compliments. Or 1 household chore, 1 bouquet of flowers and 1 kiss. Like their wife is a combination lock, and not a person.

And when you tell them that their wife IS a person who needs to be treated like a person, who needs to be listened to, valued, and cherished, and how when she feels validated and cherished, then she is far more likely to value and cherish you in return and feel desire for you, well, they don't want to hear that because that's just too damn much work. Their wife has ceased to be an individual and is now just the facilitator for taking care of all the boring day-to-day stuff so they can get back to what they'd rather be doing. They don't want to actually have to LISTEN to their wife's day at work, or have a deep discussion about what they want for the future, or make a spur-of-the-moment day trip to a cafe along the river. These men just want to know that it takes 1.5 loads of laundry and emptying 25 dishes from the dishwasher to qualify for one round of sex, so they can go do that, get their rocks off, and go back to the football game.

But let's say that LW3 isn't one of those guys. He does his share at home because he lives there too and understands that he's just as responsible for chores as everyone else. He DOES spend time listening to his wife's day at work and planning weekend dates to a local wine tasting or whatever, because it sounds like fun and he enjoys his wife's company. But his wife STILL doesn't initiate. Well...that just brings you back to fact #1: There IS nothing you can do to MAKE somebody desire you. Doesn't matter if it's the hottie you see in yoga class three times a week, the guy you've gone out with on 3 supposedly awesome dates but who hasn't called in two weeks, or your wife of 25 years. If somebody doesn't want you, they just plain won't.

LW3 wants his wife to desire him more and to show it by initiating sex more, because that has meaning for him. Okay, what does his wife want? What has meaning for her? Has he done it? If not, CAN he do it with sincerity and without the look on his face like "Come on, I've been nice to you for over an hour, can I at least get a blowjob?" And just as importantly, can SHE initiate sex without the look on HER face like "*sigh* Can we please get this over with, so I can finish all the laundry, put the kids to bed and finally get an hour to myself so I can read my book?" Can they both treat each other like they are partners and lovers, and not like another chore that MUST be done so they can each go do the things they'd rather be doing? Can they make the other aspects of their partnership flow as smoothly and as free of conflict as possible so that they CAN focus on making their relationship into a respite and a refuge, by treating each other with maximum consideration and by not creating more work and hardship for the other person? Leaving all the housework and childcare to one person because you think it's "too hard" or "boring", or refusing to get a job and obligating one person to carry the entire financial burden because "it was your dream to stay home", or leaving your crap all over the place and then complaining that the house is messy, or wasting all your disposable income on toys for yourself while complaining that your partner spent "too much" on basic necessities...all those things that tell your partner that THEIR job is to make sure you get everything YOU want, even if that makes their life a never-ending struggle. Can these people acknowledge the aspects of their relationship which cater to that way of thinking, and work on new patterns of behavior that get rid of the pain points?

The thing about being in a relationship is that you will NEVER get everything exactly the way you want. You will always go without some things you want, and you will always do some things you *don't* want for the benefit of the other person. That's what it means to share a life--that it's not always about you and for you. If you want a life that's always about you and for you, then stay single and/or hire a maid, a chef and a nanny and cultivate an entourage of yes-people who will scurry around waiting on you. Don't get into a relationship with someone who is supposed to be your partner and your equal, and expect them to become Alfred the Butler to your Batman and like it. That's not how it works. If that's the kind of relationship you want, then you can probably find it, but it sure as hell isn't going to be filled with love and desire. Instead, they will treat you like a chore and a job, because that's exactly what you are to them. So if you want an employee, hire one. If you want a wife or a husband, then treat them like a wife or a husband.

LW1: Your wife sounds like a real peach. You could just ignore her and call your child whatever name you choose. That will lead to years of fun.

LW2: Your daughter already had a real wedding. What's wrong with you people?

LW3: Let's pretend she wasn't like this before you married her but why are you still married to her? Do you think she's so dumb she doesn't get how that makes you feel? Stupids a choice. She sounds stupid. Why are you married to a stupid woman? You have the freedom to make choices yourself - get to it.

actually, middle name do serve a purpose aside from the one previously mentioned [JOHGN ROBERT!]
queen victoria was actually baptised alexandrina victoria by her uncle, the crown prince, her godfather. she was called alexandina all through her childhood. when she came into the throne, she deleted her first name.

Re: limniade
"Like their wife is a combination lock, and not a person."
Like their wife is a paid prostitute, except the price is not money, it's pretending to care. They have to care for real. Like desire, that too, cannot be faked.

Good post, buy the way.

I know I am reading and responding to this letter a few days later but I feel that
the wife had her chance to name her first son "Jordan" if she wanted to that badly. yes twins have a strong connection, but she is a married woman and is having this baby with her husband not her twin...this is his child too and he should get input. this is obviously important to him otherwise he wouldn't be writing. I feel like his wife is putting her idolization of her sister over her husband. This is his first time to help pick a baby name and a great chance for him to bond with his child before the baby arrives by picking out a name. Why not show how much she loves her hubby by naming the boy after him in some form? He sounds like a great guy not being bothered by having sil over 4-5 times a week. Sounds like sil is great too...but really feel like wife already honored twin with 1st son and needs to take this opportunity to make this a special time and name between her and her hubby.

Re: wkh

Not projecting, several of my friends over many years, have had to deal with people having the same name as them in their own families, or having the same middle names, and they always resented it, they got used to it, but seeing as how it annoyed them, it gave me some insight.

FWIW, They were smart enough not to gripe to their own families about having to "share" names, they probably said it was "awesome" to share names....:-) (Maybe you know some of them :-)

Thank God my family didn't recycle names. That shows a total lack of disrespect to the baby. If I had been a junior, I would have changed all three of my names at age eighteen just to get back at my parents. I am an individual, and this Big John, Little John crap is ridiculous. It says to the kids, "You're not worth having your own identity." You can bet I won't be dating any Italians if they think it's so "cute." It's not. It's demeaning.

Re: TheRichcraft

I quite see your point, although I don't feel as strongly about it as you do.

BTW, I hope you practice what you preach and don't go crazy at the idea of a woman not taking her husband's name when she marries...

LW1: Am I the only one who finds it totally bizarre that Jane wants both her kids to have the same name? Doesn't matter if it's the middle name of one, it's still the same name, and why does she idolize her sister to the point of naming ALL her children after her? Something about this sounds odd. Creepy isn't the right word, but it's awfully close. Also, Jane seems quite selfish. Naming a child is BOTH parents' choice - it's not just her child, it's also his. Unless it's not.