Book Burning

I'm stunned. As a law school professor for so many years, you know it is constitutionally-protected-speech to burn an American flag or to immerse a crucifix in urine and call it art. It is constitutionally permissible for Nazis to march through Skokie or for Muslims to build a "cultural center" in the shadow of the World Trade Center. All of these acts are highly offensive to many people and create a very real risk of confrontation and violence. Yet, when an act proves offensive to Muslims, the rules are somehow different. Are we to be bullied into submission by the threat of violence by a bunch of extremists? How many exposes about Islam have not been written since Salman Rushdie was targeted for death? And how much political protest will be stifled because you are unwilling to apply evenly the same principles of freedom of expression to all? You're wrong on this one, Susan.

No, Susan isn't wrong.

As an active duty servicemember, I do not appreciate this person's endangering my life and that of every other servicemember. He is yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and Americans like me are going to suffer for it. No, thank you.

Anwar, if were Greeks, African-Americans, Moonies, ______________ (fill in the blank), you would have a problem with what he's doing but because its Muslims, you don't. That speaks volumes about your character. And none of it pretty.

What I find interesting is the huge double-standard at play here. When terrorists commit heinous acts against Americans in the name of Islam (like killing 3000+ people), everyone falls all over themselves to remind us that these few "radicals" do not represent the broader Islamic faith and it's followers. Yet, when one nut-job pseudo-Christian leader and his handful of misguided followers want to burn a Koran or two (an act that would be considered "protected speech" if it were a Bible or Torah), the worldwide Islamic community (you know - those mythical "Moderate Muslims" we always hear about but never see) take to the street, burning the US flag and shouting "Death to America". So it's okay for them to paint us with a broad brush, based on the actions of a few of our radical citizens?!?

History is repeating itself, and showing humanity's fearful ugliest side. I was raised a so-called Christian. Every Sunday we went to church and heard about God's all encompassing unconditional love and forgiveness. And every Sunday my parents went home and behaved exactly the opposite - unkind, judgmental and absolutely unforgiving. Not much has changed in my 50 years I see. Today I will pray for peace, again, and I will not stop.

Oh, Susan. I agree with you 99.99999% of the time, but not now. Of course they have the right. And the press has the right to ignore them, and not give them free publicity. Too late.

But, what if there is a fire?

The first words out of President Obama and Attorney General Holder's mouths should be, "This is an exercise of 1st Amendment rights, and we will defend to the death, their right to do so."

As much as anyone thinks this is disrespectful, unwise, or merely stupid, it is no less disrespectful, unwise, or stupid when other people burn Bibles, Torahs, US Flags, or presidents in effigy. When these acts were performed, they were held up as examples of the strength of our laws and society.

Any action by government officials to stop or impede them can be considered a violation of the Constitution's establishment of religion clause. Why should one religion be given preference over another?

I don't need to burn a Koran, Quran, or how ever you want to spell it, to know that dogmatic followers of it that repress women and brutally punish people with beheadings and stonings are ignorant, human scum.

The large majority of "moderate" Muslims need to start taking a more active and visible role in condemning the alleged minority that are extremists. They should be loudly and visibly expelling them from the faith. Failure to do so only signals tacit approval of muslim extremists' actions.

But, what if there is a fire? I saw it on 9/11/2001.

It's still burning.

Elitists Liberals like Susan Estrich are either (a) ignorant and so full of CRAP that they cannot think logically or (b) intelligent and know what they do but are so morally deficient and lacking in compunction that they have no problems using such intelligence to propagate evil. I am not completely sure which category Susan falls into but I suspect it is category (a) as she seems like a person who wants desperately to do “good”; it is just that Susan seems totally clueless on how to achieve “good”. Unfortunately for Susan and other Elitists Liberals like Susan, in the end, the results of their actions are indistinguishable from the actions of those wishing to do evil. Eventually, I submit, a line is crossed where intentions do not matter, only results. Restated, if one's ignorant actions consistently result in evil being done, one's intentions no longer matter and one becomes their results: evil. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center" have decided to burn some Korans (books). No humans will be injured. In response to such burnings, members of the religion of peace, which include members who murdered over 3000 Americans on 9/11 in the name of the religion of peace, are going to kill Americans. Thus, the Elitists Liberal response is to: trot out the old tired: “One can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater”. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As already noted, such Liberals in the past have taken the position that burning the American Flag is not hate speech but a perfectly legal activity even though it will offend countless patriotic Americans. Similarly, immersing a Christian symbol, the crucifix, in urine is not hate speech but art, even though it will offend countless number of Christians. Indeed, to liberals, Nazis can march through Skokie and Muslims can build a “cultural center” in the shadow of the World trade center and such is acceptable and anyone who complains is “intolerant.” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have said it many times, the biggest challenge one faces in life is to keep evil from making one do evil. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Elitists Liberals fail this test in almost everything they do or promote, either through ignorance or by design. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As we all know, some Muslim organization wishes to build a “cultural center” in the shadow of the World Trade Center. It is known as the “Cordoba Initiative” and the “American Society for Muslim Advancement” and is said to have been conceived in the wake of 9/11 to promote "integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture" based on the Islamic values of "compassion, generosity and respect for all." BULL CRAP. There are over 100 mosques in New York City. The “Cordoba Initiative” is not needed the only reason for this new mosque is to spit in the face of Christians and the American people. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want to be clear here: I fully support the right of any organization to build any legal structure they can afford to build, where they can afford to build it, including the ground zero mosque. If Muslims wish to spend their money on hate, so be it. What they cannot do is spend their money in hate while contending their actions are for "integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture" based on the Islamic values of "compassion, generosity and respect for all." If such were true, they would not build their mosque in a place that is offensive to so many Americans and Christians. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Such brings me to Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center's decision to burn some Korans (books). Such is a legal activity no matter what the evil Elitist Liberal will contend. If members of the religion of peace and compassion and generosity and respect for all kill Americans in response to such book burnings, it will not be Terry Jones' fault. I, like Terry, do not give into bullies and never will. If I wish to burn the Koran, I will regardless of any threats. What keeps me from burning the Koran is my moral compass and my resolve to not allow evil make me do evil. Such is why I think Terry should reconsider his actions.

Funny, but the proper way to dispose of the US Flag is to burn it, and the proper way to dispose of a Bible, according to the Catholic Church, is to bury it, or burn it and bury the ashes. A Koran should be wrapped and buried or placed in a flowing river, but as a last resort, it may be burned and the ashes buried or placed in a flowing river.

So, burning can be respect, or it can be protest.

Either way, it's a form of speech, and the right and ability of free speech should be defended above all else, particularly by government officials, who if they have a personal opinion, should keep it to themselves or others may reasonably infer it's policy.

I have been called a liberal and an elitist. However, by no means do I agree with Susan Estrich opinion. Susan Estrich has, like many do, misplaced ownership of actions. IF, the response to Pastor Jones action to exercise his rights (the very right soldiers are fighting for) is that of violence. The people who engage in the violence need to OWN their actions. NO one gets to blame another for their actions.

One of the most destructive aspects of the Koran debate is the reaction it elicits from non-Muslim Americans. It was completely predictable that Rev. Jones' proposal would result in "Death to America" demonstrations. It was completely predictable that liberals would say that burning the Koran goes over the "free speech" line. It was completely predictable that conservatives would accuse such liberals believe it is fine to burn the U.S. flag but not the Koran and are thus giving aid and comfort to the enemy. The problem is that there may be about 10,000 who believe that burning the Koran is a good idea, but well over 10.000,000 who believe there is a double standard at work here -- that Muslims are permitted to invoke the first amendment (cf the "Ground Zero" mosque, but non-Muslims are not. The recriminations almost write themselves. So far, anti-Muslim responses to 9/11 and its MIddle Eastern aftermath have been muted. But Christians and Muslims have a great deal of bad blood between them in their history and it may not take much too much to set them at each other's throats yet again.

Muslims threaten to kill Americans if the Koran is burned. According to Susan, this threat turns an otherwise constitutionally protected act into an illegal action.

By that logic, Americans can make he building of a Mosque at Ground Zero illegal by threatening to kill Muslims if it is built?

Any attempt to excuse Muslims for their intentionally provacative act of building a Mosque at Ground Zero falls on it's face. Any attempt to blame a few people standing around a fire burning Korans for the death of Americans overseas at the hands of Muslims falls on it's face. If logic is so easily abandoned to appease Muslims, the USA falls on it's face.

What a profoundly sad and deluded commentary!
Assuredly Pastor Jones is a jerk and an idiot.
But, Ms. Estrich, your argument seems even more clearly to be the argument an idiot and a hypocrite.
Hypocrite: The test of constitutional speech you proclaims here is: "he [Pastor Jones] does not have the right to endanger American lives." Would you apply this same standard to Daniel Elsberg and the original Pentagon Papers, or to the current wikileaks controversy? Please Susan, a commentary along the same lines about wikileaks. When can we expect that? Tomorrow? Please? We will all be waiting with baited breath for you to prove yourself anything other than the most profound of hypocrites.
Idiot: But worse, your argument puts power in all the wrong hands. It rewards intolerance and hatred. Suppose Pastor Jones' enthusiasts decide they have had enough of liberal double standards, of not playing on a level field? Suppose they decide to use the radical Muslim game book: If someone speaks against the bible, Christ or Christianity, they will kill them. (After all, isn't Christianity, like Islam, a "religion of peace," and isn't that how the radical adherents of religions of peace behave?)
Susan, in such a case will you call for the criminalizing of all offensive (as defined by the most radical Christians) anti-Christian speech ? If you are not willing to invoke such equal opportunity criminalization of speech, are you not a profound bigot and hypocrite guilty of the most disgusting sort of racist hate speech? (If anti-Muslim speech is racist, isn't anti-Christian speech likewise racist?). If you are willing to invoke such "equal respect" for all religions, are you not instructing rabid Christians how to silence anti-Christian speech and digging the grave for our Constitution?
You position only leads to radicalizing all sides and trampling on traditional American freedoms for which many Americans have died and for which many of us are still willing to die. For many Americans, that which we hold most sacred are the very rights you wish to trample and abolish. Given that truth, if the most rabid Constitutionalists both (a) demanded "equal respect" for their dearest values and (b) choose to invoke leftist standards of hypocrisy, then wouldn't your very article suffice to jail you? Isn't sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander.

Don't have a coronary, but I agree with you. All the other writers are correct about free speech, but this act is not about free speech. It is about a religious nut job who wants publicity and the press are acting like lap dogs in
giving him that publicity. To the liberal press, it is also an attact on all those Christian loonies. (I am an Evangelical
Christian. )
Don't give this lunatic any more publicity.
I bet the liberal press will be there with cmaeras blazing. This will be another atrocity.

I plan to conduct the following protest:

Each week I will randomly select a book that represents the "scripture" of a major religion and burn it. I will burn it in my Weber grill and the ashes will go in the dumpster. So, next time you go driving down some street and see someone using a Weber grill with the flames are jumping high, just think of me. I will be thinking of you. All you religious zealots who pollute the Earth with your beliefs that can't stand the burning of a little paper. Aren't your beliefs stronger than that? I guess not.

Susan as a law professor you know the man has the right to burn the book as he desires even if it is creating the so called hatred. However, in Saudi Arabia if a person is found with a Bible or wearing a cross he or she is thrown in jail, the Bible burned by the regilious police and then the person is deported. the regilious police even man booths at all the ports of entry looking for people who have a Bible or Cross in their possession when entering the country. That person who does so is sent back to the country from where they came immediately. This is to ensure that no Muslim has the opportunity to read a Bible so they know the difference between the regilions. This is called a hatred action toward Islam for a person to even read a Bible.

Even today the Ground Zero mozque Inman states that if his mosque is not built it will cause hatred in the Muslim world leaving to more radical killings. So why did he even think of building a mosque near Ground Zero? He knew exactly what he was doing and in doing so it causing more hatred on purpose. Yet our State Department paid for him and his wife to travel in the Middle East to try and raise funds for this mosque. We are currently paying in $24 million USAID for mosques in other countries to be renovated at the expense of the American taxpayers. President Ob ama's reach out to the Muslim world. Where is the press in announcing this action?

On both sides of the isle hatred is being fed with the liberal media spreading the flames of hatred, but, always on the side of the Muslims just like their beloved idol Obama. The funny part is that if Sharia law ever took over in America they would be the very first people thrown in jail and then beheaded after serving their purpose. Yet these same liberal media people show complete repulsion on anything Christian and try to paint them in the ugliest of lights in article after article.

Stop and take a look at what is going on in this world and you will find that in 20 countries we have radical Islamist spreading their faith with killings and wars every way possible. Killing school teachers, policemen, destroying schools, killing Christians and all in the name of Islam. Where are the Islam governments in stopping this spread of hatred? Staying very quiet and funding the money behind the scenes . Why do Muslims even want to leave their home countries and go to other countries when they know that the laws of that country are not in line with their faith in Islam? Because behind the scenes they are taught to conquer the world by going into all countries and multiply and take over slowly but surely. Even King Al Fasial told President Roosevelt that America would become Islamic even if it took 100 years. It is not about prompting peace and harmony between regilions it is about taking control of the world for Islam. Seems you need to read some real history books on how Islam spread and is still spreading through actions of conquest in one form after another.

While I think the Koran burning is a needless provocation, I am so tired of being lectured about being sensitive to Islam. The threat of violence by followers of Islam over the most ridiculous things is a form of terrorism of its own. Printing a cartoon about Mohammed is also enough provocation, in Islam, to set them into murderous rioting. Followers of Islam need to engage in a little less self-pity and a lot more self-examination. If they want to exercise their right to build a mosque at Ground Zero they, in turn, need to exercise the same level of tolerance toward all the rest of us. Tolerance is a two way street. The Islamic world needs to evolve up to our level. One of the first things that needs to change is the violent insanity that is the foundation of their culture. And we shouldn't have to walk on eggs, all the time, because many of the Islamic faith are nuts.

I have come to the undeniable conclusion that there are two kinds of elitists liberals: (1) ones that are ignorant and do not fully understand their actions, and (2) ones that are intelligent and fully understand their actions. Both are evil as their actions result in evil being done. The one attribute that is common among elitists Liberals, like Susan Estrich, is their almost unbounded hypocrisy. Elitist Liberals use logic like a hired cab, as soon as it gets them where they want to go, they stop using it. Ignorant Liberals do not understand such problem while intelligent Liberals count on non-Liberals not understanding such problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Elitist Liberals love to see the American Flag burned and will fight to the death the right of anyone to desecrate the American Flag. Such position is backed up by the Supreme Court ---"Symbolic expression" is a phrase often used to describe expression that is mixed with elements of conduct. The Supreme Court has made clear in a series of cases that symbolic expression (or expressive conduct) may be protected by the First Amendment. Several of these cases have been highly controversial--perhaps none more so than Texas vs Johnson (1990) reversing the conviction of a man who expressed his strong displeasure with U. S. policy by burning an American flag. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the American Flag? I am the flag of the United States of America. I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia. There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag. My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind. Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known. My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country. My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters. My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all. My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith. I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity. I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home. I am as old as my nation. I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights. I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people, for the people." I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism. I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display. Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow. ------------------------------- Has any American ever died defending the flag because he held it sacred? YES - Many Medals of Honor awarded in the 19th century were associated with saving the flag. The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration awarded by the United States government. -------------- No wonder it warms the hearts of elitist Liberals when someone burns the American Flag. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So what about Bible burning ? Susan denounces the burning of the Koran, but what about Bible burning? First I must point out the Bible is more commonly referred to as the “Holy Bible”. The meaning of “holy” is “sacred, sanctified, hallowed.” Clearly Christians hold the Bible sacred. Thus, like the Koran, Susan would denounce the burning of the Bible, right? Wrong. Remember, the elitist Liberal is a hyprocite and uses logic like a hired cab. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- US Government Burns Bible-----Friday, May 22, 2009 ---- "It really should shake the core of every Christian to realize that Bibles are being burned," said Carl Moeller President of Open Doors USA in an interview with Mission Network News monitored Friday, May 22, by Worthy News. ------ The Bibles, printed in the two most common Afghan languages, were burned amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, the Cable News Network (CNN) quoted a a Defense Department spokesman as saying. ------- The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of "any religion" from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. military destroys soldier's Bibles (May 5, 2009) -------------- The U.S. military is confirming that it has destroyed some Bibles belonging to an American soldier serving in Afghanistan. ------ Reuters News says the Bibles were confiscated and destroyed after Qatar-based Al Jazeer television showed soldiers at a Bible class on a base with a stack of Bibles translated into the local Pashto and Dari languages. The U.S. military forbids its members on active duty -- including those based in places like Afghanistan -- from trying to convert people to another religion. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funny how I cannot find any stories about elitist Liberals, like Susan, denouncing the burning of the Bible. Go Figure.

Re: capiscan Fought in two wars and won the great one, tied the second in Korea. Burning this book will not increase of decrease the hatred of you the Muslims possess nor will it decrease or increase the danger to personnel serving in their areas. In the end Sir, there must be boots on the ground with the orders and desire to kill them before they kill us. It worked in the Pacific in WW-ll and would have worked in Korea and Nam.

If there are such people as peace loving moderate Muslims, a burning of a book should not be sufficient to make them radicals. If I'm wrong, so help us.
We may find out soon!

I am a service member and point blank, Terry Jones has the right to burn a Koran as much as any protester wants to burn the flag or a Bible. The first amendment must remain absolute. I find the whole discourse curious because right now we believe Jones act will reputedly put servicemembers lives in danger and every world leader form the Pope on down has condemned it. Yet, the WikiLeaks founder published thousands of secret document and nothing has happened to him such as his immeidate extridition to the US for trial. If other can burn the most of hallowed items of Christianity or the symbol of our country, Jones needs to fire up his burn barrel and get committed.

And one further comment Susan, if Catholics in Boston were to threaten violent reprocussions against the embassy of an Islamic country who citizens were burning Bibles, would you issue the same condemnation on said Boston Catholics?

Islam does not mean peace it means submit. Islam has never been and will never be a religion of peace. It is a political ideology of subjugation and murder dressed up as a religion in which the diety is deemed beyond virtue and reason and so if Allah/the Koran says murder and mayhem is permissible in his name so be it. The notion of a moderate muslim is a liberal fiction just as Obama's self professed Christianity is a liberal fiction. America learned all it needed to know about muslims and Islam on 9/11 and the days following when the 'moderate" muslim world glorified and basked in the murder of 3000 + innocent individuals and taunted the surviving families. Burn baby burn. Enough said?

The huge difference here is that in America when someone wants to burn Korans, EVERYONE raises one voice to condemn and try to stop these actions. However do we ever hear a single Muslim voice speaking out against the atrocities that have been performed by Muslims against us? I think most of us are getting sick of the inequity of this situation. Americans after all, are a very fair people.

Terry Jones has the Constitutional right to burn the Koran just as Wikileaks did to publish classified information that not only put Americans in danger but Islamists that helped Americans. Is it right or moral to do so? No. Does that matter in the law? No. There are plenty of things the law allows us to do that are immoral as we all know. You profusely defend the issues you are in favor of, but which others find repugnant. However, we have a Constitution to prevent personal opinion from ruling over that of others although many liberals like you seem to want to pick and choose what opinions or rights people can have. Terry Jones seems to be trying to gain attention or use this as a ploy for leverage to stop the mosque at or rather near Ground Zero. Is he really a Christian listening to God? I personally doubt that, but that is between Mr. Jones and God. The media will hold some accountability as well though for anything that may happen by publicizing this non-stop.
As far as the mosque, we should be concerned about who is funding this and why tax dollars were spent to allow worldwide fundraising. No one would be "okay" with that if it were for any other religion. I am a Christian, but would not agree with taxpayer dollars being spent to raise funds for a Church or a Synagogue.
You said nothing is worth American lives. Really? The US support for the formation of the state of Israel and subsequent backing on other issues has led to much of the retaliation by the Islamic world. Many, many American lives and those of others have been lost for that support. I support Israel, but using your logic we should stop doing that as well. We cannot live in fear. I don't support Mr. Jones proposed actions, but I do support our Constitution.
And to those who wrote in about being Christians and yet seeing hate, etc in other Christians? Remember, while all Christians should live a life that reflects Jesus, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Keep you eyes on Jesus and not others. Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with God our Father and Jesus Christ. It does not mean any of us will be perfect. Jesus died for our sins. Being a Christian is also not about going to Church a few hours a week, and not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one.

Re: ARW03 I see many responses to a simple question some more articulate than others and for that I am deeply concerned because I posed the question to a five year old child and apparently the child is smarter than all those individuals that have posted before him because his response was simple. I can put my penis in the wrong place and surely it may burn later, however, I can burn a book in the wrong place and it will not burn later. For those of you scratching your heads, you have the legal right to burn many things in many different ways howvever it does not add or detract from the meaning of the thing/ object you burn. Ask anyone that has ever been a victuim of a home fire and ask them what they lost.. Simply put they lost objects and the most important thing is that they and their love ones got out because you can recreate memories not people. So back to the original question yes you can burn a book, but no you cannot destoy the knowledge and/or insight gained from everyone that has already read it. Education is the one thing once gained can never be taken away... Look at history and see how many cultures once in power tried to burn important cultural/ religious items and then ask yourself and any notable historian did it change anything... The answer is no... because the objects were burned the learnings were not because they are and have been stored in the minds and hearts of everyone that has read it prior to the act....

Here's another a really bad idea, Build a Mosque need ground zero.

What's the difference between burning the Bible or burning the Koran?
To Christians the Bible is just a book made of paper and ink, it's the words that are holy and you can't destroy them.
To Muslims the Koran is their god.

Susan,
Do you read the comments left for you? Do you ever reply to a comment? Just curious. Seems that there are many "bitter-clingers" with a truer grasp of reality than what is in D.C. and their surrogates around the nation.
Peace, P.

Burning the Koran does not go beyond lawful protest. Its just a book. Its just symbolism. It doesnt advocate violence.The muslim's reaction to it, who want to kill people for it are what is unlawful.