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Dreams of "What If?"
Dear Margo: I'm a 20-something woman engaged to the best man I've ever known. I am beyond ecstatic to be getting married. My problem has nothing to do with him and everything to do with a guy who was one of my best friends in college. This guy and I …Read more.
Afraid of Little Girls
Dear Margo: Between the ages of 6 and 10, I was severely bullied, but I was given the impression by grownups that such behavior was perfectly normal for children and I shouldn't be so sensitive. (I now realize they probably did not pay attention to …Read more.
Every Problem Does Not Have a Solution
Dear Margo: Many years ago, I got a call informing me that my son was arrested and being held on $1 million bail. That was when I first learned that he is a pedophile.
He has just completed his 20-year prison sentence, and during that time I learned …Read more.
When You Live on a One-Way Street
Dear Margo: My patience has run out with the three living members of my family. My father, his mother and my brother have gone through periods of not talking to each other or to me. My brother wants nothing to do with my father or our grandmother, …Read more.
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Guess What: Not Everyone Is Kind
Dear Margo: My husband, our children and I recently moved to a new town. Through the children, really, I've met a group of women. They apparently are longtime friends, and one of them invited me to their Wednesday mothers group for lunch. I have to say, they were being kind of snippy to me, challenging things I said, and no one seemed welcoming or simpatico at all. I almost didn't trust my own judgment because I was thinking: If they didn't like me, why bother to invite me over? It almost felt like bullying — which I thought only happened to children. Can there even be grownup "mean girls"? I hope you don't think, reading this, that I am hypersensitive or even making things up. — New Girl in Town
Dear New: Actually, I don't. And yes, there can, indeed, be "grownup mean girls." As with children, "the new kid" is often targeted. It happened to me when I was in early middle age and moved to a new city.
I became friendly with a woman who was a neighbor. She invited me to go to a spa with her and some good friends. I thought that would be wonderful — never having traveled with women before. Well, it wasn't wonderful, and for reasons unknown to me, they seemed to be going out of their way to make me uncomfortable — especially my neighbor. At one dinner, things were so bad that I left the table, went to the ladies room and threw up. Like you, I thought: Why did they even bother to invite me? Then I saw on the spa literature that a group got 10 percent off for every new person they brought. I wondered why they hadn't invited someone they liked to get the discount.
In any case, this is all by way of letting you know that the problem is not you; they are the problem. The reasons can be cliquishness, envy ... or perhaps they really are just mean girls. It is a fact that some people are cruel without even knowing why. — Margo, discerning
When Lost Is Found...
Dear Margo: In 1965, my uncle gave up his son for adoption. His sister knew about the baby, but my dad, as the youngest, didn't find out until my uncle died a few years ago. My uncle ended up getting married and having two other children who don't know about their brother. My uncle's sister and his biological son (her nephew) found each other on Facebook, and she wants to let my other cousins know that they have an older brother they have never met.
I agree that my cousins should have the opportunity to meet their brother, especially since he has posted publicly on Facebook that he is searching for his siblings and has already lost the chance to meet his biological father. I think my aunt should give my cousin his siblings' phone numbers, or at least full names, so he can do with the information as he pleases.
My mom feels we should respect my uncle's wishes that his wife and children never find out about his firstborn son. My dad thinks my grandma (my uncle's mother) should be the one to tell my cousins about their older brother, and my brother just wants us to stay out of it. What do you think should be done in this situation? — Biological Cousin in Northern California
Dear Bio: Your uncle is gone, and the cat's already out of the bag, if you'll excuse that analogy in this context. The connection has been made, if only to a limited degree — although your family seems to know. I agree with your brother that the rest of you should stay out of it and let your late uncle's sister decide who should know what. They were siblings, after all. Now, don't you feel relieved? All the rest of you can mind your own business and not have to second-guess yourselves. — Margo, carefully
Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers' daughter. All letters must be sent via the online form at www.creators.com/dearmargo. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.
COPYRIGHT 2012 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
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Comments
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28 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1: You say "It almost felt like bullying — which I thought only happened to children. Can there even be grownup "mean girls"?
Yes, LW1. Definately. Sometimes they exist at your job, sometimes they exist at your church, sometimes they exist online. What do you do about them?
You refuse to go along with their pack mentality. Why do they only really have the guts to attack you when they know they have other women (and sometimes men) on their side? Because they are basically cowards. You direct your responses to them head on, one on one, and refuse to be taken in by their juvenile tactics of name calling and pack abuse. If they are completely beyond help, you ignore them completely. They don't deserve your time.
My advice to you is to thank the person that offered you the invitation to lunch, and respond with a one on one lunch. Generally, these types of women (and men) are better when you get to know them personally, they are human after all, but once they get in a group, they can turn into 7th graders.
LW2: At this point in our history, it's not going to be too shocking for a 40 something sibling to learn that Dad had sowed some wild oats. In my opinion, it would be better for everyone to know the truth. They will find out about it anyway. And it's better coming from family than some anonymous facebook request. A family meeting should be called and the air cleared before deciding how to approach the adopted child.
Comment: #1
Posted by: nanchan
Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:39 PM
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LW1: In all the years you've been alive have you ever met a happy healthy human? Me neither so your question is kind of silly. If you really look at people you'll notice most grow old not up. It's sad and pathetic but true.
LW2: I'm confused as to why you and your immediate family are even in this discussion. It's none of your business. It's also pretty crappy of your mother to think the first born son should be kept secret. You should really give some thought as to what she's hiding because I bet it's pretty scandalous.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Diana
Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:43 PM
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LW1--"It almost felt like bullying — which I thought only happened to children. Can there even be grownup "mean girls"?" Absolutely! Little wolf packs of young mothers are among the meanest, cattiest of people. I've observed them gather at playgrounds or their kids' schools to single out the weakest of the young mothers. It's not different than the cheer leading squad in many small high schools. They will passive aggressively circle in, waiting for the right opportunity to pick their chosen victim to pieces. These women had planned a sporting day at the hunting range when they invited you into their circle under the guise of friendship. You've learned your lesson and survived to tell the tale. Next time one of these witches tries to lull you into a false sense of security with a "friendly" invitation to join their little group, smile and say "No Thanks!"
LW2--Personally, I subscribe to the school of thought that some people don't wish to be found. Before handing out phone numbers to a perfect stranger, make sure you get the permission of the people involved. Some people don't take kindly to having their ideas and memories of who their family is upended by the intrusion into their lives of a secret relative, etc. Your Aunt needs to understand that contrary to popular belief, people don't have a "right" to know their biological families; that's a myth perpetrated by the media under the guise of finding out medical history. If some of your cousins or other extended family members aren't interested in meeting a long-lost biological relative, then kindly respect their wishes.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Chris
Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:58 AM
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L1- I'm interested in Margo's old neighbor and her friends. Did she ever confront them or speak to her neighbor again?
Comment: #4
Posted by: Renee J
Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:39 AM
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Re: Diana
"In all the years you've been alive have you ever met a happy healthy human? Me neither so your question is kind of silly." Seriously? You've never met a happy, healthy human?? I have met many and am honored that most of my friends and family fall into that catagory.
I fee really sorry for you!
Comment: #5
Posted by: nanchan
Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:01 AM
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Re: Diana
I'm with nanchan. I've met quite a few happy, healthy humans. They're out there, along with the full spectrum of people and personalities. Look on the bright side, and before you ask, yes, there is one. You have to choose it. Good luck
Comment: #6
Posted by: andrewj
Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:17 AM
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Where was the mother in this senerio of giving the child up for adoption? Unless she died or he gave up his parental rights to her, it wasn't his choice alone. I know that I would be curious about a half-sibling and would want to meet them. Just my feelings. Who does it hurt to bring in another family member? Oh wait, what am I saying? I read the advice columns and should know better. On the other hand he could be Bill Gates and everybody sings a happy song. (Bill Gates was the best person I could think of, nobody could say anything bad about Bill!)
Comment: #7
Posted by: Penny
Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:27 AM
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Re: LW1, the only thing I would suggest that's any different from other observations (as in, yes, of course, adults can be mean and bullying too) is to just make sure the LW wasn't herself being overly sensitive.
If this was a long-time group of good friends, its entirely possible that they have many in-jokes, old jokes, and that they enjoy ribbing that seems cruel on the face of it but is actually affectionate in reality. And that you, as the new girl, may have undergone a bit of a hazing that bewildered you if this type of interaction isn't familiar, but wasn't meant with malice.
Note that I think your instincts are probably right -- that they were mean -- but it never hurts to take a moment to reflect if perhaps you were misinterpreting, and it may even be worth it to go to lunch again, but just one-on-one with one of the more sympatico members of the group, and pick her brain. *IF* you want to see if it's worth exploring a friendship with this group, of course.
My closest group of friends has been together continuously since high school, and to an outsider we could, at times, seem frightfully cruel to each other; the reality is that we are all "family of choice" to each other and are closer that most friends ever seem to get.
So, as an outsider to this group, you indeed may be misinterpreting... although the group should have been gentler, if this is the case, because they should have known you wouldn't be privy to their inside jokes.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Mike H
Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:38 AM
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Diana, I have also been privileged to know many "happy healthy people" - sorry about your experience! That doesn't mean that they don't have baggage or sorrows. It means they are strong enough to control their own lives and postive enough to make those lives worth living (and worth loving). Maybe you need a new circle of friends.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:16 AM
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LW1 -- yes, there are adult mean girls. On the other hand, there is also the possibility that you were overly sensitive. I'm not saying you are always hyper-sensitive, but when you move somewhere and are lonely, you feel more vulnerable. When you feel more vulnerable, you are more likely to be over-sensitive. Plus, as Mike H noted, sometimes an established group of friends that have been together for a long time can be a tough nut to crack, even if they are all nice. Like Mike H, I have a group of friends who have been together since high school (some of us have known each other since grammar school -- and one of them is a girl I have known since we were 2 years old!!). We could EASILY be a pretty intimidating group to try to "join" at this late date (we're 41 now). Some things to think about:
1) You say they were snippy and were challenging things you said. Sometimes "challenging things you said" could simply be about figuring out who you are. Sometimes "challenging things you said," is simply someone not agreeing with you and trying to understand your point of view. Granted, when it's a group all doing it, it can feel like you are being attacked. And granted, there are nice ways to do this. You may not have been hyper-sensitive at all, but look back on the outing with a fresh pair of eyes before deciding whether they were "mean" or whether you may have misinterpreted them.
2) Also, what were you saying? I have a friend who is not part of that group of friends I was just describing, and I know I will never invite her to do something with that group because she can be very blunt -- and she can defensive if someone doesn't agree with her. One-on-one, this works OK, because she doesn't feel like she's being picked on if I disagree with her -- but if she were in a group where all or most of them disagreed with her, I just don't think that would go well. My friends are nice, and so is this other woman. I just know they won't mesh well, so I see her separately.
3) Did they exhibit signs of this before they invited you to lunch? It sounds like you had spent at least a little bit of time with them.
I want to emphasize that this absolutely could be a group of adult mean girls. But your last line, in which you say that you don't want Margo to think you're just being hypersensitive or that you are making things up suggests that perhaps someone else has already made this suggestion? Perhaps someone who knows you and knows that you might be prone to being overly sensitive and possibly exaggerating things (so that you're not actually "making things up" but seeing things that aren't there?). If that's the case, and that person does have some decent insight into what you are like, you might want to consider that person MIGHT be right, and maybe you need to give these women (and, more to the point, YOURSELF) another chance.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:05 AM
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Women can be witches where do you think their brats learn how to be mean before they even start school?
And this is why when their kid gets in trouble for it in school that they say my "Mary" did not do anything wrong because they themselves do it.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Joy
Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:41 AM
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What a difference.... a site makes!
Over at Margo's other site, the board is FILLED with "mean girl" stories. NOT ONE person there has accused the LW of being "overly sensitive".
Kind of funny that some people here are blaming the victim! Perhaps they themselves are of the pack mentality.
Comment: #12
Posted by: nanchan
Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:03 PM
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@nanchan -- since I believe I'm one of only two commenters who "blamed the victim" and must, therefore, be part of the pack mentality, allow me to respond. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I also agree that there is such a thing as adult "mean girls" and that it is very possible that these women were bullying the LW. But because I know the world is not merely black and white and that it's rare that one side in a situation is entirely to blame while the other side is entirely blameless (it happens -- but not nearly as often as we may think), I wanted to posit an alternative for the LW to consider. I have seen this go both ways. I have been in a situation when a group of which I was part was picking on someone (and, by the way, I stood up for the person being picked on). I have also been in a situation where someone felt like she was being picked on when, honestly, she wasn't. She has a major chip on her shoulder, refused to listen to anyone else's thoughts and ideas, and when people responded negatively to her, she claimed everyone else was a bunch of bullies when, frankly, SHE was the bully.
I am not suggesting the LW was a bully. And I'm not suggesting that she DEFINITELY was being over-sensitive. I'm merely suggesting that she CONSIDER her own behavior and CONSIDER the possibility that she may have been part of the problem. I hardly call that "blaming the victim." I call that trying to look at things from a variety of perspectives. If, after thinking about all of this the LW concludes, "nope, I wasn't being overly sensitive," then that's great. And in that case, I believe the advice that has been given to her related to avoiding these women (or seeing one/some of them on a one-on-one basis) is good advice. Life is too short to spend it with people who make you feel bad.
But if, upon reflection, she thinks maybe she did take things too personally, then she MIGHT want to give it another try. And who knows -- if she gives it another try, she may well realize she wasn't being bullied but may also realize that she still doesn't really like these women and/or doesn't really have much in common with them, and ends up not hanging out with them, not because they are "mean girls" but because they are women with whom she doesn't connect.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:17 PM
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LW1: Something else worth adding, even though you didn't ask... As I noted, when you move somewhere and don't know anyone, it can be pretty lonely until you do make some new friends. I think one of the "traps" a lot of women (moreso than men) fall into is always making friends through their kids. Your kids make friends at school, at soccer, etc., and then you eventually meet their friends' moms. Sometimes, this works great because obviously you already have at least one thing in common. But sometimes this backfires, because even though you do have at least that one piece of common ground, there's just nothing else (or nothing else POSITIVE) there. And sometimes you wake up one day and realize that, though these moms may (or may not) be perfectly nice, you probably wouldn't be friends with them if you'd met them in any other setting. And when that happens, you go right back to feeling kind of lonely. That's why I think it is really important for moms (especially moms who don't work) to do things that allow them to meet people and make friends that are totally unrelated to their kids or their husbands -- in other words, to make friends who are truly THEIR OWN friends, with people they chose for themselves, as opposed to people who were sort of chosen for them.
So, while it's great to join the PTA or the soccer boosters or the ballet stage moms, etc. -- it's also really a great idea to go do something that is just for you. If you like to garden, join the garden club. If you love photography, take a photography class. If you've always wanted to run a marathon, join a running club. Or maybe (if you went to college), there's an alumni group in your area -- you get the idea. You are guaranteed to meet some people with whom you automatically have something in common (sort of like all those kids' friends' moms), but the thing you have in common has more to do with you as a person, instead of you as a mom.
I just think that, regardless of whether those women were bullying you or not, you are in a lonely, vulnerable position, and you are less likely to question your judgment (and, obviously a lot less likely to feel lonely), if you get out and meet more people on YOUR terms!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:36 PM
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@nanchan, please re-read -- we're not really "blaming the victim", more "confirming she may be right BUT also looking at the problem from a new perspective". Sometimes that's actually what best serves the situation, rather than just agreeing with someone when they might have misread the situation.
Think of it this way, nanchan: what if the reality is that the LW really WAS hypersensitive? That this group of women was actually predisposed to being friendly with her, but she was so on-edge, prickly, anxious, or defensive, that *she* turned *them* off? And in her nervousness completely misinterpreted these women?
And what if this isn't the first time this has happened to her? Wouldn't it be better to suggest that she look at behavior she can change (ie, her own) and maybe adjust something that might actually *help* her?
We only have her version of events, and I think we've all suggested her instincts are *probably* right on. But there's also a distinct possibility that she mis-read the situation, too, and so we just suggested she reflect on that to be *sure* before she decides these women must be mean girls all grown up.
I think we've all seen examples we're someone totally misread a situation, or misinterpreted a conversation or an online post to read in malice where there was none. People, on the internet and in real life, sometimes misinterpret situations. And IF that's the case here, it doesn't at all help the LW to simply reinforce the incorrect interpretation!
But that's *IF*, not *BECAUSE*. Only the LW can know for sure. If, after reflecting and further conversation, she still is sure these women were mean to her, then she has her answer and can look for a better group of new friends.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Mike H
Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:53 PM
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@ Lisa
"I have also been in a situation where someone felt like she was being picked on when, honestly, she wasn't. She has a major chip on her shoulder, refused to listen to anyone else's thoughts and ideas, and when people responded negatively to her, she claimed everyone else was a bunch of bullies when, frankly, SHE was the bully."
Too easy! Are you referring to you-know-who? (Three guesses, the first two don't count.)
Comment: #16
Posted by: Chris
Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:03 PM
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LW1-
You obviously didn't know that "mean girls" often turn into "mean women". Now you do. They invited you so that they would have someone to pick on - you were the brand new fun du jour and highly entertaining, apparently.
Don't bother associating with these b*tches. Find your own friends. Even if you stay all alone for the next six months, it's better than to allow yourself to be used as the resident scratching post.
If they ever invite you again, decline nicely. If they end up asking why after several brush-offs, you can give them a taste of their own medicine by asking, in a soft, saccharine voice and your best Barbie smile, "And why, pray tell, do you even think that I would like to be subjected to that again? You certainly wouldn't!" Then hang up, or turn your back and walk away, before they start the deny-deny-deny game.
P.S.: Yrrrrch.
LW2-
No. Your aunt should give the half-brothers the news that they have another sibling they never knew about and the information on how to contact him, including the fact that he's looking for them, AND that other family members already know. And then let them do their own contacting if they wish. This should not be foisted on them.
P.S.: Out of curiosity... how did YOU know, if this was so secret even the wife and children didn't know? Seems like everybody knows except them, which I find extremely disrespectful, like the wife who's the last one to learn about the mistress after the entire town has known forever...
@Chris
#16 - Hee hee hee ho ho ho HAW HAW HAW HAW!
Comment: #17
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:35 PM
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@ Lise
I'm just teasing!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
Comment: #18
Posted by: Chris
Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:50 PM
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LW1: I'm inclined to believe the LW, although I've been pretty fortunate with friendships. In fact, I recently met two fabulous women who are becoming good friends. The three of us meet regularly.
LW2: It's time that the oldest son met his family. The circumstances of his birth are not his fault and it's all water under the bridge now that his bio-dad has passed. I cannot imagine why he would have kept this secret from his wife and children for so long. They will be surprised, but I don't see why anyone would consider this earth-shattering. So Uncle wasn't a saint. Nobody is.
Comment: #19
Posted by: PuaHone
Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:56 PM
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chris... you just proved my point. (vroom vroom... leader of the pack!)
Comment: #20
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:13 AM
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Re: Chris
Perhaps, but it's precisely becausse there is some truth to it that it's so funny - there is a reason why "some" people know so well what motivates bullies!
Comment: #21
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:05 AM
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Re: Lise Brouillette Comment #21
What a coincidence. I was just reading from the back catalogue of W Bruce Cameron, and the entry from 5 July 2008 has a comment from Matt (dear old Matt).
It reads:
. . . . As Jim Davis (the creator of Garfield) said, "More often than not, if a reader laughs at a (comic) strip, it's not because it's funny, it's because it's true."
Comment: #1
Posted by: Matt
Sat Jul 5, 2008 2:07 AM
Comment: #22
Posted by: Beguiling Miss Pasko
Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:42 AM
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BTW, not sure what/who Chris was getting at. I am abnormally obtuse about these hints.
Lisa and Mike H. Your discussion of the situation was very even-handed. I can't allow myself to go look at Margo's other site. My days are not long enough for more comments pages. But I can see where a little introspection is a good idea, rather than wallowing in comparing mean-girl stories.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Beguiling Miss Pasko
Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:46 AM
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Yes, there are mean girls who never outgrew it. One is named Diana. Although, as she often asks LWs "how old are you"?
However, as other posters have stated, I actually feel sorry for her
Comment: #24
Posted by: C Meier
Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:32 AM
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Something in Margo's answer doesn't make sense. She says "I agree with your brother that the rest of you should stay out of it and let your late uncle's sister decide who should know what. They were siblings, after all." Well, the LW his/herself wasn't a sibling, but one of his parents was. Why shouldn't they have as much say as the sister?
IMO, at this point, there's no way to keep the 1/2 siblings from knowing, because as Margo said, the cat's out of the bag. Better to hear it from family.
Comment: #25
Posted by: C Meier
Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:14 AM
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Just for the record, the person I was writing about was NOT someone from the BTL. I was thinking of a girl I knew in high school. She and I were part of a group of five girls who always ate lunch together our freshman year. By sophomore year, none of us really hung out with her anymore, not because we were mean -- but because she ALWAYS assumed the worst. If there was a way to twist things around to make it sound ke one of us was slamming her, she would do so. Then we would spend the whole rest of the lunch period (and often the rest of the day and the next few days) having to stroke her ego and convince her that we weren't talking about her, that nothing is wrong, that everyone thinks she's fabulous. Frankly, it was exhausting. I remained friends with her (not everyone did), but would only hang out with her separately, as then she ws less likely to misconstrue something.
Comment: #26
Posted by: Lisa
Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:31 AM
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Re:New Girl In Town; My husband and I moved to the town that his business partner lived (within 1 street !) And I was amazed at the Bitchiness that his so-called friend's wife displayed towards me. She had a PhD. In psychology (which she mentioned quite often), so I doubt she didn't realize how cruel she was being. She just didn't want me in her neighborhood.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Ann Marie
Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:57 PM
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Re: Ann Marie
No, she realised it plenty and it was done very much on purpose. She knew perfectly well what she was doing - a PHd would have taught her many things.
As I said on Amy Alkon - intelligence without values is worthless and can only be destructive.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 AM
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